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Kimi K3: Open Frontier Intelligence
https://www.kimi.com/en https://www.kimi.com/en
Kimi K3 Intelligence, Performance & Price Analysis: https://artificialanalysis.ai/models/kimi-k3 https://artificialanalysis.ai/models/kimi-k3
- aussieguy1234 2mo agoI'll switch to this for now. I'm expecting Anthropics reply soon though. It would be trivial for them to distill Mythos.
- ed_mercer 2mo agoAFAIKI Fable = Mythos but with more guardrails
- gentlewater 2mo agoI really wanted to try it out, but I keep getting blocked by rate limit (opencode go). Can you guys get off it for a second so it can process my request? Thanks.
- ThouYS 2mo agowhohoo, fable will (have to) stay
- XCSme 2mo agoNo blog post? Benchmarks?
- dmix 2mo agoThis might have been published before they released their tech blog, I don't see one
- naaqq 2mo agoWill be later.
- anonfunction 2mo agoThere's this: https://platform.kimi.ai/docs/guide/kimi-k3-quickstart https://platform.kimi.ai/docs/guide/kimi-k3-quickstart
- frozenseven 2mo agoBlog post here: https://www.kimi.com/blog/kimi-k3 https://www.kimi.com/blog/kimi-k3
- XCSme 2mo agoBenchmarks look ok, but they don't mention anything about the issue with the model being extremely slow and verbose. That being said, it's awesome to have such an open-source model, even if now it's unusable mostly locally, with hardware improvements, in a couple of years, the verbosity/speed wouldn't matter as much as the intelligence.
- Tiberium 2mo agoMore details: - https://platform.kimi.ai/docs/guide/kimi-k3-quickstart https://platform.kimi.ai/docs/guide/kimi-k3-quickstart - https://platform.kimi.ai/docs/pricing/chat-k3 https://platform.kimi.ai/docs/pricing/chat-k3 1M context, pricing is $3/$15 for 1M tokens (cache $0.3), which is extremely high for a Chinese open-weight model, but if it's truly competitive with most of the current frontier and is only behind Fable/Sol, the pricing is justified. This is 1:1 pricing of Anthropic's Sonnet series (except Sonnet 5 which is currently on discount), and very close to 5.6 Terra pricing (Terra's input is $2.5). One thing to consider, though: reasoning efficiency matters directly for how expensive a model actually is in real use. GPT's models are extremely reasoning efficient, and some Claude models like Fable at lower effort are as well. So if Sol spends 10K reasoning tokens to do something (at $30/1M) vs Kimi K3 that spends 50K reasoning tokens, Sol would win on cost effectiveness.
- csomar 2mo agoIt seems the subsidized era is nearing its end and we'll see a convergence on API pricing before a pulling of subscriptions pricing.
- easygenes 2mo agoThat’s not what this indicates. This is the biggest and most expensive to serve, and most capable open weights model yet. They’re just pricing it in line with capabilities. Kimi also offers generous subscriptions. Subs aren’t going anywhere. Think of subs like running an insurance business. There might be some users you lose money on (ones who max out their weekly quota without fail), but they’re managed such that the average subscription turns a healthy profit. There’s never been subsidies in model serving, inference is just cheaper in terms of ops TCO than people assume, and API margins are very high.
- csomar 2mo ago> They’re just pricing it in line with capabilities. So... convergence? > but they’re managed such that the average subscription turns a healthy profit. It didn't work like that, or at least that's not how it played out. People max-out their subs all the time which is why strict and multiple limits were implemented by all providers. Also, I subscribe to z.ai and recently they dropped the quota significantly that now their sub offers less than Claude and OpenAI. It's still x5-6 what it would cost on API costs though. > inference is just cheaper in terms of ops TCO than people assume, and API margins are very high. API margins (at least american ones) are probably healthy. But I don't think that inference is that cheap. It would cost 300-500k to just run GLM 5.2. There are lots of other factors too: reliability (can you keep the GPUs running all time), electricity cost, sys. admin costs, location costs, etc.. I wouldn't be surprised if the API margins are quite close to operational costs.
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- esher 2mo agoHalf kidding feature request for HN: Mark all AI related posts so I can filter them out, when I need a pause.
- lfx 2mo agoHere you go https://tools.simonwillison.net/hacker-news-filtered https://tools.simonwillison.net/hacker-news-filtered
- mrtksn 2mo agoThis post is at the top when filtered against AI :) Maybe it should use llm based filters to understand if the post is about AI and filter it out?
- cyanydeez 2mo agoUs the AI to build the bubble against the AI, because everyone knows AI is the AI of the AI.
- tngranados 2mo agoExcept it literally shows this post as the first result
- lfx 2mo agoI saw it after posting. Ha. That is not very smart filter, but works most of the time!
- addandsubtract 2mo agoSounds like a job for AI.
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- tw1984 2mo ago> Among the models tested, its overall intelligence ranks second only to Claude Fable 5 and GPT-5.6 Sol. > The full model weights of Kimi K3 will be released in the coming days. More details on the architecture, training, and evaluation will be published together with the Kimi K3 technical report. https://platform.kimi.ai/docs/guide/kimi-k3-quickstart https://platform.kimi.ai/docs/guide/kimi-k3-quickstart
- nkmnz 2mo ago> > ...ranks second only to Claude Fable 5 and GPT-5.6 Sol. So... it ranks THIRD?
- polski-g 2mo agoUSSR is proud to announce that they won 2nd place in an Olympic contest. The filthy USA regime? Next to last! (There were only two countries competing in said event)
- sudosysgen 2mo ago
- blovescoffee 2mo agoExcited for the deepseek release this week (or at least they announced they'd release this week). Hopefully they also push even closer to SOTA.
- kamranjon 2mo agoWhere did you hear about the deepseek release? Would love to follow the same source.
- blovescoffee 2mo agoThey emailed current paying users of the api (or at least that’s how I got updated).
- benjiro29 2mo ago> Where did you hear about the deepseek release? * Tons of gray testing going on for the last 2+ weeks (people at random getting the new v4 model for a while before its removed again). * It also DeepSeek their 3th birthday this Friday. * The its been almost 3 months from the v4 DeepSeek release, and the model everybody have been using, was not post-trained. That is what they have been doing during this time. People trying out the new DSv4 via the web chat with quick game creation tests. People pulling out stuff like Stellaris clones etc. https://cct124.github.io/HORIZON6_DEMO/ https://cct124.github.io/HORIZON6_DEMO/ https://www.showyourcode.app/zh/share/pmpwkamrnai2ue https://www.showyourcode.app/zh/share/pmpwkamrnai2ue The Battlefront like game is impressive. Sure, the soldiers are backwards and the graphics are still kind of basic. But the entire movement system (run/walk/crouch/jump), gun mechanics, grenades, capture points, AI fighting / capturing back, etc ... Ended up playing it way too darn long lol The text is in mandarin but its not too hard to figure out the menu. Sniper is OP ;) The Horizon 6 game has everywhere mesh colliders, shows when you off track dirt being kicked up, etc ... In general, both example are very well polished minus the reverse soldiers issue. And the price is supposed to stay the same (beyond the doubling during Chinese workhours), because everybody got that update.
- bayesianbot 2mo agoThat is exciting! I don't understand how DeepSeek can be so cheap with their cache pricing - ~0.003 usd / 1Mtok. 100x less than Kimi K3, or similar numbers against pretty much any other decently sized model to my knowledge. I've been using it whenever possible as even longer agent sessions cost few cents.
- 1g10k 2mo ago[dead]
- khalic 2mo agoI really need to finish my automated model evaluation harness, I can't keep up with this pace
- GodelNumbering 2mo agoI've playing around in between with Arc-AGI-3 lately. Based on my very quick test prompt, I do not think it will achieve any meaningful score in Arc AGI 3. Not that it was expected to.
- msdz 2mo ago> We also further increased the sparsity of the Mixture of Experts (MoE): with the Stable LatentMoE framework, the model efficiently activates 16 out of 896 experts. Together with improvements in training methodology and data recipes, these structural advances give K3 roughly 2.5x the overall scaling efficiency of K2, converting compute into capability more effectively. Assuming experts are uniformly distributed (I’m really not that familiar with the deep details there), that’s 2800/896*16 = 50 billion active parameters just for the active/expert part. Wild stuff, and I’m glad there’s at least some companies still publishing (and pushing, for open-weight models) total parameter count. And: It sounds very believable that this would result in efficiency gains wrt. to compute necessary for “good”-quality inference. Does anyone know whether there currently even are any SOTA or near-SOTA models that are dense still?
- Aeolun 2mo ago2.5x the scaling efficiency, so 4 times the price? What is happening here? Did the subsidies dry up with the discrepancy between chinese and US models?
- petu 2mo agoIt's also 2.8x parameter count (1T -> 2.8T), likely higher activation per token (50B?).
- pixl97 2mo agoScaling efficiency simply means if you took the first small model and scaled it up to the big model it would take 2.5x the resources to run. Not the that larger model is going to be any cheaper. Kind of like scaling your personal automobile to the weight of a semi, the semi is still going to be far more efficient in moving cargo, not that the semi will cost the same to operate as the original car.
- 7734128 2mo agoNo, you can't divide the entire size by the expert count. A lot of weights are constant for all tokens, so total active count is ((2800-(shared)/896)*16 + (shared))
- buildbot 2mo agoAmazing to see an open source model already nearing the benchmarks of Fable and GPT 5.6 Sol! Also very cool to see LatentMoE being picked up by more models (https://arxiv.org/abs/2601.18089 https://arxiv.org/abs/2601.18089)
- NoImmatureAdHom 2mo agoSurely it's only open weights?
- stefan_ 2mo agoIt's not even that right now.
- buildbot 2mo agoAnd they have since removed that language…
- z4y5f3 2mo agoThey will release the weights by 7/27 along with support in vLLM. Stop second guessing. Source: their blog post https://mp.weixin.qq.com/s/V4xhEIy8xDXSMDPrPkmUAQ https://mp.weixin.qq.com/s/V4xhEIy8xDXSMDPrPkmUAQ
- buildbot 2mo agoThanks for the link. No need to be so aggressive. The blog with that detail was not live before; and they removed that language from the original link in this post.
- kroaton 2mo agoIt also goes to show that Fable/Sol must be 4-5T in size.
- 2mo ago
- calburnofsouth 2mo agoCurious why the thinking mention chatgpt for a moment https://ibb.co/JFdhMN95 https://ibb.co/JFdhMN95
- wren6991 2mo agoLLMs are hopelessly confused about which model they are. Ask DeepSeek V4 Flash which model it is, and it's 50/50 between "I am DeepSeek (深度求索)" and "I am part of the GPT-4 series developed by OpenAI." Ask Claude, it'll say Claude. Ask Claude in Chinese, it'll sometimes say DeepSeek. It's incredibly funny, but I don't know whether it's related to distillation; it's probably quite rare for a distilled trace to mention which model it came from. (I'm not saying distillation doesn't happen, just that it's possibly unrelated.) For your specific example, the internet is full of "As a large language model developed by OpenAI, I can't..." due to people pasting chatbot output without reading it. Seems reasonable for that to surface as part of the CoT for your question about model capabilities.
- wxw 2mo agoOpen source Fable/Sol challenger! Interesting to do a release product-first. https://platform.kimi.ai/docs/guide/kimi-k3-quickstart https://platform.kimi.ai/docs/guide/kimi-k3-quickstart
- ekojs 2mo ago> In our evaluations, Kimi K3 delivers frontier-level performance. Among the models tested, its overall intelligence ranks second only to Claude Fable 5 and GPT-5.6 Sol. For the complete benchmark results, see our tech blog. The full model weights of Kimi K3 will be released in the coming days. More details on the architecture, training, and evaluation will be published together with the Kimi K3 technical report. > K3 pushes the boundary of end-to-end knowledge work. On the GDPval-AA v2 leaderboard, Kimi K3 scores 1687. The benchmark evaluates AI models on real-world tasks across 44 occupations and 9 major industries; Kimi K3 ranks behind only Claude Fable 5 Max and GPT-5.6 Sol Max, and ahead of Claude Opus 4.8 Max at 1600. > On AA-Briefcase, Kimi K3 scores 1527, ranking second among all models — behind only Claude Fable 5 Max and ahead of GPT-5.6 Sol Max (1495). AA-Briefcase is a private agentic knowledge-work benchmark developed by Artificial Analysis to evaluate frontier agentic capability in long-horizon knowledge work. Really good benchmark score it seems. Maybe another DeepSeek moment right here.
- paxys 2mo ago> its overall intelligence ranks second only to Claude Fable 5 and GPT-5.6 Sol Pretty sure ranking “second” to two others means ranking third.
- ekojs 2mo agoYeah, bad wording it seems. Though a charitable interpretation is that Fable 5 and GPT 5.6 Sol are joint 1st place in the measurement.
- paxys 2mo agoDoesn’t matter, the next one is still third.
- cheesecakegood 2mo agoDENSE_RANK() vs RANK() claims another victim
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- smalltorch 2mo agoAccount creation with only a phone number or google account is lame.
- kleiba2 2mo agoEspecially if you don't have a phone and don't want to use your google account for anything but gmail, for privacy reasons. Both of these point apply to me, for instance.
- ThouYS 2mo agosame, precisely the reason I haven't signed up yet. GLM can be used without any account fwiw
- CommieBobDole 2mo agoAlso, the dark pattern where it shows the interface and lets you enter a prompt/set settings, but then pops up the 'create account' dialog when you press submit is pretty annoying.
- WorldPeas 2mo agoopenrouter's a good option, though it has a price markup
- lvl155 2mo agoSay what you want about these Chinese models but they sure create competition and urgency in the space.
- _superposition_ 2mo agoAgreed, this will save us all money in the long run.
- antiloper 2mo agoSeems to only use ≈60% as many reasoning tokens as 2.6. So the price hike is not as bad as it looks.
- CurbStomper 2mo ago[dead]
- schmorptron 2mo agoThat's a more than 2x jump in parameter count. I know it's not a measure of quality by itself, but it will be interesting how it "scales". Bust it looks like they're gonna be competing with the big boys now, pricing also approaches Gpt 5.6 Terra
- pr337h4m 2mo agoIt does seem to have retained the K2 series's creative writing abilities, at least with the prompts I've tested so far.
- Alifatisk 2mo agoGood that they are keeping it, Kimis way of speaking and conveying some sort of EQ is absolutely the best. The other models might be better at certain things, but nothing comes close to how good Kimi is at understanding language, emotions and reading the room in conversations. I should maybe also mention that I have not used the later models like Opus or Fable, so my opinion might be a bit outdated. When I remember that this site even showed Kimi having the highest score at one point https://eqbench.com https://eqbench.com
- satvikpendem 2mo agoNow, will they actually release the weights? Seems like Chinese model providers are slowly closing up, like Alibaba's Qwen 3.6 which did release weights (but not the biggest parameter count ones) and none for 3.7.
- j2j8 2mo agoIn the coming days
- linzhangrun 2mo agoQwen's team has been reorganized, and not open-sourcing also fits Alibaba's usual corporate style... Other companies have not shown similar problems so far. China has many government agencies and state-owned enterprises that need models which can be deployed locally. This is also part of "Xinchuang" (self-owned systems, self-owned hardware, etc. New government computers all run special Linux versions on domestic CPUs, and LLMs also need to be like this).
- satvikpendem 2mo agoLooks like I spoke too soon. As a result of Kimi competition Qwen is releasing their 3.8 weights as well.
- ddxv 2mo agoThe blog post says they will release them July 27
- xyzsparetimexyz 2mo agoAny updated Pareto frontier graphs? https://paraplouis.github.io/llm-pareto-frontier/ https://paraplouis.github.io/llm-pareto-frontier/ is quite out of date now.
- tao_oat 2mo agoI generally rely on LMArena for this: https://arena.ai/leaderboard/code/webdev/pareto https://arena.ai/leaderboard/code/webdev/pareto But it does take some days after model release before they collect enough data.
- Dibes 2mo agoOdd that open AI models aren't on that graph but are on the rankings! Must be a data lag issue?
- mdasen 2mo agoLMArena's "code" leaderboard is really skewed since it's a front-end JS code and design leaderboard. It generates a demo app with two models and then asks "do you prefer A or B". People can look at the code, but most of the time it's just going to be which one looks nicer. Models that people like the design aesthetic of (Claude, GLM) tend to do better in LMArena than they do on other benchmarks. Design matters, but you look at a model like GPT-5.5 and it's behind Kimi K2.6, Sonnet 4.6, Qwen3.7 Max, and GLM-5.1 on LMArena's code leaderboard. Then you look at benchmarks like DeepSWE and GPT-5.5 blows them out of the water with only Fable and GPT-5.6 beating it. I'm not saying that the LMArena leaderboard isn't useful, but I'm not sure how much weight I'd give it as a "code" leaderboard. I think often times it's a design comparison of simple front-end React apps rather than a coding comparison. GLM-5.2 is a very good model, but when you look at DeepSWE or Terminal-Bench v2, GPT-5.5 is well ahead.
- Bromeo 2mo agoopenrouter->rankings shows a pareto frontier. https://openrouter.ai/rankings#benchmarks https://openrouter.ai/rankings#benchmarks
- 1899-12-30 2mo ago
- tskj 2mo agoI'm curious if they're keeping up mostly due to distillation or how that works. Does anyone outside China know?
- linzhangrun 2mo agowith no extra resistance from either the government or the public, while also having the largest technical talent system
- npn 2mo agoNot worth it. I have just tried a single prompt in the web interface and it is still not finish reasoning. It thinks too much and often repeats the same stuff over and over. Combine with the price it will surely more costly than gpt 5.6.
- verdverm 2mo agoIts bad to judge these things on immediate release, there is a spike of excited users and that distorts performance. Also bad to judge from on a single interaction, you'll get bad requests with every provider, super busy times raise the probability
- ericd 2mo agoYeah, I'm literally getting 529 API Overloaded responses on Claude Code right now.
- m3h 2mo ago> Kimi K3 is Kimi’s most capable model to date, with 2.8 trillion parameters. This puts them on the top of the largest open models list: Kimi K3 2.8T DeepSeek-V4-Pro 1.6T (49B active) Kimi K2.6 ~1T (32B active) GLM-5.2 754B (40B active) DeepSeek-V3.2 685B Mistral Large 3 675B That's one mighty large model! Moonshot is going to need the USD 500 million reportedly raised earlier this year to run this model.
- wolttam 2mo agoI guess it remains to be seen whether this will be open-weights. We don't even know how many active params at this point.
- sudosysgen 2mo agoThe article says weights will be released in the coming days, and hints it's likely around 50-70B active params.
- wolttam 2mo agoIt did say that, but it doesn't any longer.
- simonw 2mo agoWhat's the URL of the article that used to say that?
- wolttam 2mo agohttps://platform.kimi.ai/docs/guide/kimi-k3-quickstart https://platform.kimi.ai/docs/guide/kimi-k3-quickstart this one, it used to have more information about the model itself, similar to the K2.6 and K2.7 pages. Edit: OpenRouter still describes it as an open-weight model: https://openrouter.ai/moonshotai/kimi-k3 https://openrouter.ai/moonshotai/kimi-k3 Guess we'll see!
- ncruces 2mo agoI get a quota of GitHub Copilot for free. From all the models available to me I'm most happy with Kimi K2.7 (given the cost/performance).
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- wolttam 2mo agoI'm a bit nervous this one isn't going to be open-weights. Any mention of "open" has been struck from the literature for this model (it was present an hour ago). We don't even know active params? At this pricing, I'll be surprised if it's open.
- nullbio 2mo agoThis does seem like a cash grab. These token rates are crazy. I'll just use GPT 5.6 thanks.
- icedrift 2mo agoReuters has been reporting that Chinese government is undergoing similar investigation to the US; blocking the export of domestic frontier models. They boil down to "anonymous sources" but it does seem inevitable as the tech gets stronger and stronger.
- WarmWash 2mo agoIt came (at least in part) from a document in May where the CCP pretty much said that they will need to review models to make sure they don't threaten national security. Which basically translates too "Don't give away tools that can be used to undermine your own goals".
- ValentineC 2mo agoSo much for the speculation that China was encouraging the release of free/cheap models to mess with the US AI economy.
- FooBarWidget 2mo agoLots of fake news out there, but you don't need to speculate any longer. Key takeaways from President Xi's speech in his first ever appearance at the World AI Conference in Shanghai: - Started the speech by referring to his signature maxim, "great changes unseen in a century are unfolding across the world" - Said that the world has "entered an unprecedented period of active innovation on AI technology", which means "great opportunities as well as challenges for governance” - reaffirmed commitment to open source to promote AI "openness and win-win" - warns against "over stretching" the concept of national security as applied to AI where one country's national security is prioritised over others - China opposes emergence of “new historical injustices” in AI (one of the most strongly worded parts of the speech) - China in next 5 years will provide 5000 opportunities to developing countries in "AI training and seminar programmes" and "cooperation centres" - names ASEAN, League of Arab States, African Union, CELAC, SCO and BRICS Live blog: https://www.scmp.com/tech/policy/article/3360858/chinas-xi-jinping-addresses-world-ai-conference-us-tech-rivalry-heats https://www.scmp.com/tech/policy/article/3360858/chinas-xi-j... Complete translation: https://x.com/i/status/2077984062933762450 https://x.com/i/status/2077984062933762450
- 0xbadcafebee 2mo agoThe big danger here is the gradual increase in open-weight subscription costs. I use open weight subscriptions, with lower-cost models for 80% of my tasks and GLM-5.2, Qwen 3.7-Max, Kimi-K2.6/2.7-Code for the 20% that need the most intelligence. That lets me maximize the rate-limit the subscription gives (rate limits per model are literally a price-limit-per-token/model). When new/more expensive open weights come in, providers phase out older/cheaper models. Over time we will either have to pay more, or use our subscriptions less. It goes without saying, but if the open weights become as expensive as SOTA models, there's no point in using open weights. If nobody pays for open weights' development, the development dies out, and we're stuck with a US-controlled duopoly again. Which may be the biggest threat the world has seen from the US since nukes.
- hedora 2mo agoIt’s open weight, so the price will end up being the marginal cost of hosting it. Personally, I like that there is an option to not send data to companies that have strong financial incentives to steal it. Also, open weight foundation models can be distilled, so they’re providing a service that the US duopoly is actively blocking. Given that app specific distillation can get > 10x improvements on inference cost (with slight improvement of quality), it’s clear that it’ll win out over time.
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- knollimar 2mo agoIm excited for the labs with more data RLHFing this (e.g. cursor). That model will be crazy.
- simonw 2mo agoPelican: https://tools.simonwillison.net/markdown-svg-renderer#url=https%3A%2F%2Fgist.github.com%2Fsimonw%2F66a2699eb1594258904c7b5102840dd6 https://tools.simonwillison.net/markdown-svg-renderer#url=ht... - rendered via the OpenRouter API: https://openrouter.ai/moonshotai/kimi-k3 https://openrouter.ai/moonshotai/kimi-k3 95 input, 16,658 output = 25 cents! https://www.llm-prices.com/#it=95&ot=16658&ic=3&oc=15 https://www.llm-prices.com/#it=95&ot=16658&ic=3&oc=15 (13,241 of those were reasoning tokens.) I think that's the most expensive pelican I've rendered through a Chinese model so far.
- eleventen 2mo agoOof, front fork is wrecked. Pelican should be wearing a helmet on that death trap.
- bitexploder 2mo agoIt is a nice pelican, though. At least it has that going for it.
- smallerize 2mo agoHow did "Generate an SVG of a pelican riding a bicycle" turn into 95 tokens?
- XCSme 2mo agoOnly supporting "max" reasoning is weird, their parameters are quite inflexible atm: Important limits: reasoning_effort currently supports only max; K3 always has thinking mode enabled. max_completion_tokens defaults to 131072 and can be set up to 1048576. temperature=1.0, top_p=0.95, n=1, presence_penalty=0, and frequency_penalty=0 are fixed; omit them from requests. Return the complete assistant message unchanged in multi-turn conversations and tool calls. Vision input does not support public image URLs. Use base64 or ms://<file-id>, and make content an array of objects. Web search is being updated and is not recommended for production workflows in the near term.
- anthonypasq 2mo agoDoes anyone have any heuristics on how scaling parameter count actually scales cost to serve? Also im assuming we dont really know the sparsity here? Is them pricing at Sonnet level actually give us any information at all at how big Sonnet is or is there too much opacity around inference margins?
- nullbio 2mo agoThis is far too expensive. Why would I use this over a frontier model at these prices.
- pizlonator 2mo agoThey're claiming that it's a cheaper alternative to Fable/Sol If that's true, then the price makes sense
- cute_boi 2mo agoThank you Kimi. We no longer need to rely that much on Dario and his supreme lackeys to decide what is safe or not for simple tasks.
- s3p 2mo agoIt's not him, its the US government.
- nullbio 2mo agoThis is too expensive to be a viable model. If it were $5/1m output, it might be another story. At these prices, there's no reason to use this over GPT 5.6.
- cmrdporcupine 2mo agoThat depends entirely on the hosting situation. If someone can provide a subscription plan at slightly lower rates, it's absolutely compelling.
- vidarh 2mo agoMoonshot has subscriptions maxing out at $199/month. Not home so not had a chance to see if K3 is included yet. EDIT: Just switched my Kimi-CLI session to K3 and resumed my ongoing /goal... Will be interesting to see if I notice a difference.
- vidarh 2mo agoI'll say after having it run for a few hours that I still don't feel it matches even Sonnet. It still does a lot of back and forth that feels dumb, but it's possible this is in effect Anthropic tricking us by hiding the full reasoning traces - who knows what Sonnet still sounds like if you were to see the whole thing.
- cmrdporcupine 2mo agoI haven't tried K3 yet but my experience with older Kimi models was exactly this, that they'd spin for a whole chunk of time with a lot of back and forth thinking. But some of this might still be something that gets sorted out with finding the right parameters etc on the serving side.
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- XCSme 2mo agoI am trying to benchmark it, but it only supports (max) reasoning, and even for simple questions, it takes forever to answer/times out :(
- HarHarVeryFunny 2mo agoWhy do most LLMs insist on a login, even for a free trial? I entered a question to try it, but as soon as I hit enter it wants my phone number for a login. No thanks.
- cvakiitho 2mo agoThink about it for 2 seconds.
- HarHarVeryFunny 2mo agoThere's many obvious excuses ... Are you claiming a necessity ?
- Philpax 2mo agoFree use without registration -> free to anyone and anything -> easy to abuse at scale, with no way to restrict use.
- nicce 2mo agoYou can limit it a lot to minimize the abuse. In free entrypoint, set token and context limits to be very small. Limit to 2 prompts per IP or something every X hour. That is already a substantial limit where bypassing might not provide much benefits.
- xaqfox 2mo agoResidential proxies are too prevalent for IP address limits to work effectively.
- HarHarVeryFunny 2mo agoYou can use cookies to track usage history
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- loolhahalmao 2mo agodo they not have an API? only sub?
- luciana1u 2mo ago[flagged]
- cosqtanq 2mo ago[flagged]
- h2aichat 2mo agoWorking with chinese models is giving me a fullfilment sensation. I think that I have enough quality for the work that I need to do and lots of extra tokens to work with. With Claude and ChatGPT I reach the limits fairly easy, but not with OpenCode Go. So I will use Claude once in a while for difficult tasks to see how much better it still is (but use Chinese on a daily basis)
- cg5280 2mo agoI have been using Deepseek V4 Pro for personal projects and it has been great. I think the $20/mo GPT plan is still the strongest value, but only because you don’t have to pay API prices for tokens.
- ac29 2mo agoOpenCode Go is a great deal but I recently dumped my subscription because I found myself rarely reaching for it over my Anthropic sub (I can get 40 hours of work a week out of the $20 sub and almost never hit weekly limits). Subscribed to OpenAI as my secondary and I've been really impressed with that too so far. I expect if they add Kimi 3 to Go the limits are going to be really low since 2.7 is already one of the most limited models and 3 is much larger.
- Cider9986 2mo agoWhat models do you use on your Anthropic sub? The weekly limits have been okay with resets but the 5 hours are brutal. I use mostly Opus 4.8 medium or Fable medium in OpenCode.
- epolanski 2mo agoI benched DS4 flash and Pro vs opus 4.8 xhigh on 16 work-related tasks a month ago across 4 days. Opus 4.8 came out as a winner by 1 task only where both DS4 pro and flash looped out of "focus". But flash performed as well or better (as in being more thorough) in 13 out if 16. The way I see it even DS4 flash is as efficient as top dogs and only starts lagging on very vibecodey (generating lots of stuff) or very difficult bugs. But you're really spending low cents amounts for your tasks.
- InsideOutSanta 2mo agoOn the first try, Kimi K3 just found the source of a bug that Fable 5 hasn't been able to pinpoint in multiple attempts. It's just one anecdote, and I haven't used K3 much yet, but so far it's looking extremely promising.
- sm-silversight 2mo agoHow do you use kimi for agentic tasks? I'm used to claude code & codex extensions for vs code, but recently switched to codex cli w/ vim keybinds. Does something like that exist for openrouter?
- InsideOutSanta 2mo agoI use everything except for Anthropic's models in opencode.
- igravious 2mo agoKimi has Kimi Code :) kimi-code https://www.kimi.com/code/en https://www.kimi.com/code/en
- SyneRyder 2mo agoI don't use Codex CLI myself, but you can configure it to point to OpenRouter instead. OpenRouter has some instructions for Codex CLI and Claude Code here (though they mention Claude Code is not guaranteed to work!): https://openrouter.ai/docs/cookbook/coding-agents/codex-cli https://openrouter.ai/docs/cookbook/coding-agents/codex-cli https://openrouter.ai/docs/cookbook/coding-agents/claude-code-integration https://openrouter.ai/docs/cookbook/coding-agents/claude-cod...
- Gecko4072 2mo agoVery interesting to see how Gemini 3.5 Pro stacks up against this new wave of models. Hope they have something similar to a Gemini 3.1 moment soon. Their speciality has always been math and multi modal intelligence and the new models are recently all very coding focused.
- copperx 2mo agoWhy Gemini 3.5 Pro in particular?
- Gecko4072 2mo agoThe only major player left in this round if I’m not mistaken.
- seatac76 2mo agoBloomberg has an exclusive today about how internal metrics on Gemini 3.5 Pro are not good enough, thus the release is delayed. (Not posting link coz paywall)
- Gecko4072 2mo agohttps://www.reuters.com/business/google-gemini-launch-delayed-tech-falls-short-internal-goals-bloomberg-news-2026-07-16/ https://www.reuters.com/business/google-gemini-launch-delaye...
- linzhangrun 2mo agoGemini 3.5 Pro has been delayed twice, originally said to be released in June. Not holding out hope.
- oybng 2mo ago>Too many people are chatting with Kimi right now. Subscribe to enter a dedicated priority queue!
- taf2 2mo agoI'm not finding this on huggingface yet is and open model or is kimi now a closed model ?
- root-parent 2mo agoWants a phone number...no thank you.
- minraws 2mo agoThe question remains is it open or not, if it's open I will use it if it's not well I was happily being fucked over by an American tech giant...
- benjiro29 2mo agoOpen Weight release is on 27 july.
- anentropic 2mo agoQuite impressed by the result to my first prompt... How feasible is it to hook Kimi up to do GitHub code reviews? the Copilot quotas got really stingy recently
- try-working 2mo agoyou could use my model router to route between models like that. https://github.com/try-works/role-model https://github.com/try-works/role-model
- anentropic 2mo agoSo basically I'd make my own GitHub bot that used that?
- try-working 2mo agono, you download the runtime and connect your models to it, then you use the router as the endpoint in your coding agents
- anentropic 2mo agonot what I'm looking for
- freestanding 2mo ago[flagged]
- XCSme 2mo agoI finished benchmarking[0] it, but it was not fun, it only supports (max) reasoning and the model is quite slow. Apart from a few requests timing out, it also has some issues with tool calling/response format schemas (Moonshot rejected tools.function.parameters with anyOf schema). It also, for some reason failed to generate either of the 2 coding demos (hamster svg and solar system css animation). Intelligence-wise, it's between GPT-5.6 Terra and GPT-5.6 Sol. It's ~30% better than Kimi K2.6, but a lot slower and more expensive. [0]: https://aibenchy.com/compare/moonshotai-kimi-k3-max/moonshotai-kimi-k2-6-medium/openai-gpt-5-6-sol-medium/ https://aibenchy.com/compare/moonshotai-kimi-k3-max/moonshot...
- XCSme 2mo agoJust saw the logs, coding demos failed due to the 5 minute/task timeout. I have increased it and retesting it now. EDIT: With 10 minutes timeout, the CSS task completed, but the SVG generation task still timed out. Trying again with 30 minutes timeout... EDIT2: It completed (now in only ~9 minutes). It's one of the best hamsters[0]. [0]: https://aibenchy.com/compare/moonshotai-kimi-k3-max/moonshotai-kimi-k2-6-medium/openai-gpt-5-6-sol-medium/openai-gpt-5-6-terra-high/?showcase=hamster-table-tennis-svg#showcase=ba84a783efa99cce https://aibenchy.com/compare/moonshotai-kimi-k3-max/moonshot...
- senko 2mo ago[dead]
- natrys 2mo agoSome official benchmark numbers posted in Chinese social media (I am sure they will publish an English blogpost later too): https://mp.weixin.qq.com/s/V4xhEIy8xDXSMDPrPkmUAQ https://mp.weixin.qq.com/s/V4xhEIy8xDXSMDPrPkmUAQ Generally looks like a Sol/Fable tier model, better across the board than Opus 4.8. (Edit) English blogpost is up now: https://www.kimi.com/blog/kimi-k3 https://www.kimi.com/blog/kimi-k3
- EugeneOZ 2mo agoAny benchmark where Sol is better than Fable at coding is ridiculous.
- zarzavat 2mo agoIt's like reading Anthropic's obituary.
- refulgentis 2mo agoFable is by Anthropic, and this is too expensive, GLM 5.2 is roughly the same quality at a much cheaper price. (I mantain a client with llama.cpp and 101 models across 14 companies by http)
- LaurensBER 2mo agoAs much as I like GLM 5.2 it's clearly a step below Opus (or even Fable) for more complicated tasks. I would place it at Opus 4.6/4.7 level. Having said that, the safety system on Fable makes it an extremely unattractive model. It feels that half of the time you're paying double for Opus level performance.
- jml78 2mo agoFable won’t even generate a jwt to test endpoints because it is security related. It is crazy capable but useless for real work
- 2mo ago
- grommz 2mo agoImagine you're a mid sized company and you can host this model locally. Suddenly there are zero reasons to pay a single red cent to the bloodsucking American AI cartel.
- bhouston 2mo agoWhether it is "open" or not seems to be in question. While it was initially called an "open" model, it seems that "open" mentions have been scrubbed from website.
- cavemandaveman 2mo agoCan you host the model for a lower cost per token than you'd pay Anthropic or OpenAI for a similar level of intelligence? I doubt you're beating their efficiencies of scale.
- criley2 2mo agoNo, and the reason is simple: Usage is bursty and if you don't maximize usage of the hardware you're going to lose on price. Ok you can host this model once. What if I want a dozen subagents? Ok you can host it 12 times at once. What if we go a whole week only using max 4 at a time? Etc etc. The limits imposed by self-hosting might be bearable for a variety of reasons, but it's going to be more expensive and less convenient/useful.
- preg_match 2mo agoThe flip side is if you already have the hardware and can utilize it. Also, if this is for security or IP concerns, you largely don't have a choice. The US players are out. The marginal cost goes down significantly if you have datacenters. Baring in mind that US API pricing is kind of absurd. Even if you, say, only utilize your DC 1/10 of the time... you might still be ahead of API pricing by a wide margin.
- zbendefy 2mo agoI dont have estimates on the cost of running models, but I think openai and anthropic are running on subsidized prices. At actual prices it might be worth it in the future.
- himata4113 2mo agoIt's important we now have a recap to the opus 4.8 release where we were threatened with ID verification as "these models become more powerful" and had to pass "verification" to gain full access to the capabilities without having random "cyber" refusals.
- benjiro29 2mo agoFull benchmarks in Mandarin: https://mp.weixin.qq.com/s/V4xhEIy8xDXSMDPrPkmUAQ https://mp.weixin.qq.com/s/V4xhEIy8xDXSMDPrPkmUAQ Translation: https://mp-weixin-qq-com.translate.goog/s/V4xhEIy8xDXSMDPrPkmUAQ?_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en&_x_tr_pto=wapp https://mp-weixin-qq-com.translate.goog/s/V4xhEIy8xDXSMDPrPk... Cheaper then GPT 5.6 Sol (according to their results) ...
- modeless 2mo agoAnthropic's "durable advantage" theory of US AI dominance is looking pretty silly. There's zero indication that it will be hard for China to keep pace as models improve and start contributing to their own training. Which pretty much invalidates their policy recommendations. They can't even blame it on distillation this time, unless they want to claim that their own preferred security measures were ineffective in preventing Chinese access to Mythos.
- pacman1337 2mo agoLikely won't improve much. They trained on every text already.
- m_ke 2mo agomost of the gains from the past year and a half have not been from web data, but from synthetic data and agent rollouts with RL.
- Schlagbohrer 2mo agoThere is tremendous investment and work being done in creating new high quality data sets. Some of this is happening in-house at various firms, such as Meta making their employees use AI for their workflow to generate high quality training data. Also, AI companies get huge amounts of human input when people use their cloud models, including thumbs-up or thumbs-down on millions of outputs. So the usage of these cloud models is itself producing new, high quality datasets.
- surgical_fire 2mo agoI remember that more than a year ago, when Anthropic and OpenAI started to hide reasoning steps, some were claiming that Chinese models were done, as they could only distill those US models. I am very curious for the next batch of Chinese models. I have been using DeepSeek and it is nothing short of excellent.
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- wellthisisgreat 2mo agohow much would it cost to host it on AWS for example?
- segmondy 2mo agoCrap, the first open weight model that really feels out of reach when it comes to running it locally at home. :-(
- kzrdude 2mo agoIf DeepSeek v4 flash is run using Q2, then people should run this one using Q½ or maybe Q¼
- sebmellen 2mo agoMy testing prompt for these models is by no means objective or repeatable (like the pelican) but it's a nice test of curiosity: > Impress me with a 1 page html file Result: https://ydaurtg3fdwhq.kimi.page/ https://ydaurtg3fdwhq.kimi.page/ Came out looking pretty cool! By contrast, Fable produced a moderately more interesting "live observatory" of the solar system.
- jamius19 2mo agoDo you, by any chance have the link to the Fable generated one?
- tomashubelbauer 2mo agoThis is a cool idea. I know I'd rather see this comment on every model release than the pelican.
- gentlewater 2mo agoHah, that is indeed a pretty cool result.
- nikcub 2mo agoThose thin capitalized eyebrows are becoming like the emdashes of visual design
- zorked 2mo agoI asked the same and got something vaguely similar. Then I asked for a demoscene-inspired demo in a non-traditional setting. https://recherche-demo.kimi.page https://recherche-demo.kimi.page
- tezza 2mo agoNice qualitative test! Just like you I am super impressed by Kimi K3. I do a qualitative benchmark series making 3D explainers and so here's Kimi K3 vs Claude Fable: https://generative-ai.review/2026/07/kimi-k3-rush-test-vs-claude-fable https://generative-ai.review/2026/07/kimi-k3-rush-test-vs-cl... I've put links to the posts on GLM5.2, Opus 4.8, Chat GPT 5.5. I grab video screencaps so you can compare in detail. The full interactive Kimi output is at the bottom of the post if you want a comprehensive 3D play around
- meetpateltech 2mo agoKimi K3 blog is up: https://www.kimi.com/blog/kimi-k3 https://www.kimi.com/blog/kimi-k3 2.8T param open model, 1M context, native vision. Weights releasing by July 27 with technical report. Launching with max thinking effort by default; low/high effort modes coming in future updates.
- eckr 2mo agoThese benchmark numbers are insane. The days when China was 6 months behind are over? How are they doing this with so much less resources than the US??? I have so much respect for the researchers there
- reisse 2mo agoWhat makes you think they have less resources?
- missedthecue 2mo agoFewer GPUs and much smaller teams.
- eckr 2mo agoThis, essentially. Especially in compute I don't think it's debatable they have less resources than the frontier labs in the west.
- smith7018 2mo agoI'm not sure where "so much less resources" comes from. Training the best model has nothing to do with having the most NVIDIA GPUs around. If that were true then xAI would have the best model. It comes down to the quality of data, research, and financial backing.
- eckr 2mo agoObviously it comes down to that, but you can't make the claim that GPUs aren't a huge part of it. Otherwise, billions wouldn't be getting invested into them in the west, no? And "financial backing" essentially boils down to the researchers, which boils down to the quality of the data and research, and to compute. I do think they have really smart researchers, obviously — otherwise this wouldn't be possible.
- simonw 2mo agoThe technical blog post is out now, and it's a better top-level link than what we have currently: https://www.kimi.com/blog/kimi-k3 https://www.kimi.com/blog/kimi-k3
- poly2it 2mo agoThis looks promising as they are extensively comparing themselves to open models. There was a bit of confusion in the comments as to whether this model would be opened. I'm holding my breath!
- simianwords 2mo agoKimi 3's Artificial Analysis benchmark scores between GPT Sol and Opus 4.8. https://artificialanalysis.ai/models https://artificialanalysis.ai/models
- seizethecheese 2mo agoKimi doesn't do well on my "ask a trivia question that other AIs get wrong" test. The question it came up with, "which U.S. state is closest to Africa?" is a pretty standard trivia question without any reason to believe other AIs would get confused. https://pellmell.ai/s/dccdeca69f929f79bc89317035610049 https://pellmell.ai/s/dccdeca69f929f79bc89317035610049 Even GPT-OSS-120b gets this right: https://pellmell.ai/s/1a43dfc7a3baa214aa0fa1b95d2c536a https://pellmell.ai/s/1a43dfc7a3baa214aa0fa1b95d2c536a
- anigbrowl 2mo agoAre you giving it your API for these other AIs to evaluate their responses? This 'test' seems perverse.
- seizethecheese 2mo agoI don't understand the question. The other AIs don't see the question until they are asked to react.
- anigbrowl 2mo agoSorry, I should have said 'API key'. What I mean is, why do you consider it a reasonable test for an AI to guess what others AIs don't know?
- tossandthrow 2mo agoThese types of tests are kind of moot as agentic harnesses are taking over. IMHO an Ai is the llm plus it's harness. A good harness would allow the llm to investigate on a map. Just like the llm can use a python script to figure out how many r's there are in strawberry. These tests are simply not that predictable of performance of the llm.
- seizethecheese 2mo agoThe test here is not how close the state is to Africa, the test is coming up with a question that is hard for other AIs to answer.
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- deemwar 2mo ago[flagged]
- sudosysgen 2mo agohttps://www.kimi.com/blog/kimi-k3 https://www.kimi.com/blog/kimi-k3 "The full model weights will be released by July 27, 2026."
- vblanco 2mo agoAnother deepseek moment? it seems they have fully caught with fable tier of models, and this was a lot sooner than was expected.
- InsideOutSanta 2mo agoYeah, I would have expected Zhipu to ship a Fable-adjacent model by the end of the year, but the jump from Kimi 2.7 (which I think is just barely at the level where it is genuinely helpful for coding) to this is absolutely bonkers. And this is clearly not just benchmaxing; this thing actually works. If you told me I could only use this and never use Fable or Sol again, I'd shrug and not feel like I'd lost much.
- re-thc 2mo ago> Yeah, I would have expected Zhipu to ship a Fable-adjacent model by the end of the year There were talks of a GLM 5.3 in August, so maybe not that far away...
- procgen 2mo agoNow it seems the best way to tell if a frontier model is benchmaxxed is to check if it can autonomously solve a major open mathematical problem.
- InsideOutSanta 2mo agoThe blog post is now online: https://www.kimi.com/blog/kimi-k3 https://www.kimi.com/blog/kimi-k3 - The blog post is explicitly saying that the model is open; that language was removed from the previously shared link - It shows benchmarks I've been playing around with it for the past few hours, and I think it's an amazing model. I'm not sure I could tell the difference between this and Fable in a blind test. The quota in the $100 Kimi Coding plan seems to roughly align with what I get from the $200 Anthropic plan when I primarily use Fable.
- cesarvarela 2mo ago[dead]
- jdw64 2mo agoThey're saying kimi3 beat Fable in the AttnRes Kernel Optimization benchmark. What does this benchmark actually mean?
- dovin 2mo agoJust in case you were thinking of signing up directly with Moonshot to use the service, they appear to train even on API use: > We may use Content to provide, maintain, develop, support, and improve the Services, comply with applicable law, enforce our terms and policies, and keep the Services safe and secure. Customer who requires restrictions on the use of Customer Content for training or improving Moonshot AI models may contact Moonshot AI to discuss available enterprise arrangements or separate written agreements. Unless otherwise expressly agreed in writing, Customer Content may be used for the foregoing purposes. https://platform.kimi.ai/docs/agreement/modeluse#4-content https://platform.kimi.ai/docs/agreement/modeluse#4-content
- lvillani 2mo agoInteresting. OpenRouter classifies the Moonshot provider as ZDR. I wonder whether they have a ZDR agreement or it's a misclassification on their part.
- tigeroil 2mo agoMy gut feeling is that Moonshot are probably ZDR but their terms are excessively permissive. That said, I wouldn't rule out OpenRouter misclassifying - I've seen some providers where I'm fairly sure they have.
- kzrdude 2mo agoOpenRouter's ToS also seems to allow them to store your submitted prompts anyway, so privacy advocates would have to look elsewhere anyway, that's at least how I understand it (and it surprised me).
- ljlolel 2mo agoTrustedRouter (my site) has open source proof of confidential compute that we aren’t looking at prompts or output https://trustedrouter.com/ https://trustedrouter.com/
- kingo55 2mo agoWhy risk it either way if they provide weights for others to run this? Am I being overly cautious not wanting to send my data to Chinese companies?
- d3Xt3r 2mo agoDoes anyone know how to connect this (web version) to Microsoft Learn MCP?
- luciana1u 2mo ago[flagged]
- RohitRathiii 2mo ago[flagged]
- bdhtu 2mo ago@dang, since the English blog post is now live: https://www.kimi.com/blog/kimi-k3 https://www.kimi.com/blog/kimi-k3 Maybe we should update the link to it instead?
- swimwiththebeat 2mo agoDid anyone see on the blog post[0] that it was able to code up an entire GPU compiler from scratch? It looks like it even outperformed triton on some GPU kernels. That just seems insane to me. Wonder if they’ll open-source this and show how many tokens it cost. [0] https://www.kimi.com/blog/kimi-k3 https://www.kimi.com/blog/kimi-k3
- kpowerinfinity 2mo agoTraditional narrative is that you need tons of traces of actual execution to post-train and get models right. Nobody seems to use Kimi API from Moonshot, I bet everybody is using them on neoclouds/inference providers like Together, Nebius, Fireworks etc. where unlikely they will get traces (in fact, thats the whole promise of these inf providers). How are Kimi models improving so quickly? Is this just distillation (though Sol/Fable just came out so I find it hard to believe)
- lukebechtel 2mo ago> Chip Design > As an early proof of concept, Kimi K3 designed a chip to serve a nano model built on its own architecture. In a single 48-hour autonomous run, K3 built, optimized, and verified the chip using open-source EDA tools on the Nangate 45nm library. Within 4 mm², the chip closes timing at 100 MHz and sustains over 8,700 tokens/s decode throughput in simulation, packing 1.46M standard cells, 0.277 MB of SRAM, and an INT4 MAC array with fused dequantization. A chip built by a model, for a model, reflects K3's long-horizon agentic capabilities. Absolutely wild.
- Onavo 2mo agoHow nano are we talking about here? A single transformer head and a few dense layers?
- api 2mo agoI had a thought a while back: sell large local models burned onto fused compute / ROM chips. Like cartridges for old game consoles. Slot (or probably plug into USB-C) and go. It’s an ASIC with the model wired into it so it’s very low power and fast. I’d buy these. Say $100 for a frontier class model. Maybe more.
- Gecko4072 2mo agoThis would be very compelling. Can anyone share more details on how it would work? Only issue is that you are stuck at a certain point in time but that’s not a huge deal. Even just a good 27b model would be useful.
- FridgeSeal 2mo agoTalaas have done this with a llama 3 model. Runs at like, 16k/tokens a second oror something obscene. Very little power draw too. Doesn’t need hbm or lots of memory, because the hardware can just forward the data straight to the next layer and you don’t need to round trip through memory. They claim to be working on an approach to make the underlying hardware a bit more reusable between models.
- ben8bit 2mo agoI mean, it's hard not to be impressed by the Moonshot team. Absolutely great work.
- pier25 2mo agoIs there a way to try it without using your Google account or giving them your phone number?
- anon5000 2mo ago[dead]
- kerriy 2mo ago[dead]
- taylorfinley 2mo ago[dead]
- Gecko4072 2mo agoLooks like open models being months behind is a thing of the past. Now more like weeks.
- catigula 2mo agoCompanies had Claude Mythos access in April. Low chance this is on that level.
- jryle70 2mo agoFable 5 is constrained Mythos, which came out before April
- manacit 2mo agoPublic disclosure of Mythos was April 7 and leaked happened in March, but it's been heavily delayed for well-known reasons. That said, as the frontier moves, "months old" becomes more and more useful. Opus-tier models are being used to write serious software, so we're going to start seeing open models pick up a lot more usage imo.
- elinear 2mo agoIs K3 marked as a proprietary model because its weights have not been released yet? Were there indications from Moonshot that K3 would or would not be open weights?
- InsideOutSanta 2mo agoThe blog post says it's going to be open, but I don't think the weights have been released yet: > Kimi K3 is the first open model to reach 2.8 trillion parameters. It marks the latest step in Kimi's sustained push at the scaling frontier: for nine of the past twelve months, Kimi models have set the upper bound of open-model sizes. https://www.kimi.com/blog/kimi-k3 https://www.kimi.com/blog/kimi-k3
- tfehring 2mo ago> The full model weights will be released by July 27, 2026. Still sensible to mark proprietary for now though.
- baq 2mo agonot much reason to think this won't happen except unconfirmed gossip, but I fully expect the next one to not be released. actually I won't be surprised if even this release was withheld and the announcement withdrawn.
- jdw64 2mo agoWhat subscription plan for Kimi 3 would be the most cost effective? Most people only talk about API efficiency, but is there any place that evaluates how much you get with the subscription plans?
- lousken 2mo agoHopefully, gemma5 will have this intelligence next year
- x313 2mo agoStrictly dominates both Sonnet 5 and Opus 4.8 in both cost and performance: https://artificialanalysis.ai/models/comparisons/kimi-k3-vs-claude-opus-4-8 https://artificialanalysis.ai/models/comparisons/kimi-k3-vs-... https://artificialanalysis.ai/models/comparisons/kimi-k3-vs-claude-sonnet-5 https://artificialanalysis.ai/models/comparisons/kimi-k3-vs-...
- TacticalCoder 2mo agoYup some here are in denial but what many said would happen did just happen. They're not "six months behind": the model is totally SOTA. Cheaper, faster and they don't just crush Sonnet 5 and Opus 4.8: on 6 of the 14 benchmarks they posted Kimi K3 is in front of Fable. Of course the shills are shifting their tone: this thread as devolved into "sure yup it's totally SOTA but it sucks because it'll use more tokens than Fable to do the same task". I take it that's the new tune we'll hear for a while. Oh well, at least we won't have to suffer the "they're six months behind, so they're totally useless" anymore. P.S: I'll make a prediction... We'll hear the "buuuuuuuuut it uses more tokens for the same task" for a few weeks, then we'll get Fable 5.1 and those same posters are going to post "Fable 5.1 is so much ahead you're missing out if you're still on that piece of turd that Fable 5 or K3 is".
- ignoramous 2mo ago> I'll make a prediction You just hope that BigLabs & BigTech doesn't gut out the talent from Chinese labs. They certainly have the money & impetus.
- cantaloupe 2mo agoI didn’t realize that GPT-5.6 is basically dominating the cost/intelligence Pareto frontier right now, at least for this set of benchmarks. Otherwise it’s only Fable on the very high end and DeepSeek on the very low end. This Kimi model gets close, though.
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- revolvingthrow 2mo agoAccording to artificialanalysis, cost per task is $0.94, which is almost the same as $1.04 of gpt 5.6 sol max (fable is most expensive by far, at $2.75). Things like glm 5.2 max cost roughly half that. The model certainly sounds extremely impressive for something not from openai/antrophic, but the price makes it a mediocre product. Instruction following seems lower than I’d like, too. OTOH scores on agentic stuff seem high, which… feels a bit contradictory? I thought decent instruction following is step 1 of solid agentic workflow. The benchmarks look nothing short of incredible. Assuming it’s not benchmaxxed to hell and back it’s just a notch below gpt 5.6, which came out what, a week ago? If the performance claims hold up the delayed Gemini 3.5 pro will likely end up not only behind fable, but also behind 5.6 and a (supposed) open weights model. Google might have to do some real soul-searching.
- sourcecodeplz 2mo agoso it is ~ same price as openai, same score, but somehow it is mediocre? edit: not to mention being an open model that you can host yourself
- FrankenApps 2mo agoTheres no way you will be able to host it yourself. It’s way too large.
- pixelesque 2mo agoSemi-off-topic, but... Is the release of this why Google's share price is down 4.5%?
- ed_mercer 2mo agoNo, Pichai is just once again sitting with his thumb up his ass while Gemini is getting owned by better models. https://www.reuters.com/business/google-gemini-launch-delayed-tech-falls-short-internal-goals-bloomberg-news-2026-07-16/ https://www.reuters.com/business/google-gemini-launch-delaye...
- dwa3592 2mo agoThis is super exciting. I really need to buy better hardware to try this stuff.
- dwa3592 2mo agowaiting for - "Running Kimi K3 on X years old hardware".
- kerriy 2mo ago[dead]
- softwaredoug 2mo agoSo Chinese labs are driving essentially towards commodotized intelligence. Even if its a few months behind the US. Is this a classic 'commoditize my compliment' situation? They want to sell the hardware and infrastructure behind AI and make the software part not the value driver / moat? I can see it. But also even two Chinese labs sinking 100s of millions USD into training isn't exactly commoditization. It's still a ton of effort with dubious payoff.
- micromacrofoot 2mo agoit also undercuts American dominance, which is something China is always happy to invest in, even if it doesn't immediately mean Chinese dominance
- tomaskafka 2mo agoThis. More people should read Simon Wardley. Also China's silent but powerful support of Russia and its invasion.
- epolanski 2mo agoChina relies on Russia on energy. You can't expect them to start sanctioning Russia for ukraine, Israel/US for their middle east shenanigans, etc.
- tomaskafka 2mo agoChina also supports and helps maintain North Korea, and has ties with Iran.
- micromacrofoot 2mo agoIf North Korea were to collapse for any reason it would create a massive refugee issue for China.
- avph 2mo agoI tried the $40 plan. Seems ok to get some real work done. The model seems quite capable and being able to read the reasoning trace is bonus. It's not the fastest though.
- LarsDu88 2mo agoA really good startup idea right now... Use kimi k3 to reproduce the kimi k3 asic design and start fabbing it immediately. In 12-18 months, start spinning up your own cloud and start competing with the frontier labs ASAP. Who needs superintelligence with you have 8,700 tokens/s at near Fable levels of performance??? This is like the Bill Gates, Paul Allen moment, but for hardware.
- LarsDu88 2mo agoSomeone do this right now. I will join!
- villish 2mo agoIt would be a tiny version of K3 not nearly as good. You need terabytes of memory to run the full model.
- LarsDu88 2mo agoSo build the full model with SRAM and all?
- kilroy123 2mo agoI've been convinced for a while this is the future. A super fast, good enough model, that runs locally and is private.
- ouraf 2mo agoThis is the first time an AI provider makes a trailer[0] for their main release and game development is the first demo and main hook. Anthropic might dominate general purpose programming,but I think there's enough of a market for a model laser focused on game scripting or tool development for game studios. I hope it succeeds in serving that audience. [0]https://youtu.be/bn0atstgavo https://youtu.be/bn0atstgavo
- yewenjie 2mo agoIs anyone using non frontier models as secondary models for coding tasks? What's your setup? I'm on the Max 20x plan for Claude but I still want a secondary, maybe fast model for offloading some tasks and parallel development. Any recommendation for a cost effective subscription service?
- pluralmonad 2mo agoOpenCode Zen gives api rate access to lots of different models. You can get a lot done with Deepseek v4 for pennies.
- djoldman 2mo agoFor day-to-day programming work, have you seen a difference in the quality of output between (Opus 4.6 / GPT 5.2 / GPT-5.3 Codex) and the current (GPT-5.6 / Fable) that justifies the price increase? My intuition says that the output quality difference is marginal compared to the change in price especially when taking into account the effects of prompt/context engineering and harness differences. Essentially: since opus 4.6, working through a model's quirks with prompt/context engineering and harness development will yield significantly better output than just switching models to the latest.
- edot 2mo agoI’m starting to come to the opposite approach: don’t try to customize anything, just use it vanilla, and use the best model you can afford. No AGENTS.md, no special subagents or roles, nothing but a few convenience skills which are really just textexpander. Use the harness that the LLM provider makes, and that’s it. Making a huge custom setup is so 2025.
- amunozo 2mo agoI agree with this. However, aren't harnesses like Claude Code a bit bloated? Would it be better to use something like Pi?
- edot 2mo agoYeah, but the bloat is “correct” per the manufacturer. I view it like car parts or other things where the OEM (original equipment manufacturer) recommends certain things. Besides, they have the most training data and incentive to get their harness working as well as possible with their LLM.
- wronex 2mo agoEvery time I try one of the newer models I don’t want to go back. What is the value of a dumper model? It makes more mistakes. Wastes more of my time. At anything below Opus 4.8 I’m better of writing code myself. As a tools, it needs to outperform me. Unfortunately, it tends to be lazy. Which is rather ironic from a machine. We taught it well. Alignment is not an issue :’)
- WorldPeas 2mo agoI hope this means they stop downgrading my fable requests
- ghm2199 2mo ago[flagged]
- joegibbs 2mo agoWhat does it say if you ask it in Chinese? I imagine English training data would be more critical of China than Chinese
- largbae 2mo agoIf this is open weight, would abliteration counter the refusals?
- Kostic 2mo agoYour video is showing Kimi 2.6, not 3? Once the weights are released, there might be providers that serve it without the censorship filter.
- flexagoon 2mo ago> It’s possible that the chat/ux model does know and has an unbiased opinion about china, but the filtering is on the front end/client side and so the user facing model has not been fine tuned natively This has always been the case with Chinese models. Their web ui is a service provided from China, so they are required to censor it, but not the models themselves.
- FooBarWidget 2mo agoThere is no such thing as an unbiased opinion, opinions always contain some sort of value judgement. Besides, training data contains biases. What is plausible is that they haven't made any attempts to explicitly steer certain opinions into a certain direction, and just let the model take over the bias of the training data, whatever that may be. Filtering in the front end is the easy, lazy way out to be legally compliant.
- ricardobeat 2mo agoHosted providers have filtering on their chat interfaces (you can see how the response starts streaming in), doesn't mean the model itself has that behaviour. Plus, your video is of Kimi K2.6.
- yieldcrv 2mo agoAnthropic needs to IPO and dump on you all’s retirement plans quick This was only a month and a half delay after Opus 4.8 and Fable 5 spent 18 days in embargo, resurrected with a strict classifier that handicaps it We’re at endgame
- sdfefcxv 2mo agoIts already too late The sentiment has shifted far too much amongst the investor community and amongst enterprises who are the life-blood of the revenue streams of Anthropic and OAI. Further releases of Chinese models that demonstrate the gap is not growing substantially is a huge problem. The spending will be called into question.
- KolinFirz 2mo agoBut, it's not open models.
- thekevan 2mo agoI took advantage of their "Token Cup" for the world cup and won 530,000 credits. I believe at the time they said it had to be used in the desktop app, which I have installed. Nowhere can I find any sort of balance or evidence of the 530k other than the Token Cup page itself that say that is what I was given. Their web chat has almost no settings of customization. Everything they present just comes off as amateurish to me. I trust them less than most Chinese AI companies, which a very low bar.
- easytiger 2mo agoYea i got about 900k - they have since added a "Gift usage" section under settings/ My Quota The kimi.com interface also seems to indicate they can be used there (the badge to say its using gift quota is there for me). However under Usage Details/Gift Quota it seems to indicate that it is consuming it via kimi code and sure enough my usage is reflected there from kimi cli. Odd and a tad vague
- Aboutplants 2mo agoThe pricing on this (it’s… fine?) might say more about the costs of running any frontier/borderline frontier model than any other insight. Either Kimi knows that the cost to run the premier models are being highly subsidized and will right course soon, or the cost for any borderline frontier model at this point is just flattening.
- periodjet 2mo ago“Open” frontier intelligence? In what sense? Have they announced their intention to release the weights similar to their previous releases?
- alightsoul 2mo agoYes
- Implicated 2mo agoJuly 27th
- matheusmoreira 2mo agoHoly fuck. This is an open weights model? It's literally trailing the frontier models! This is insane! It's my dream to own hardware that can run this!
- ls612 2mo agohttps://www.reuters.com/world/china/chinas-xi-outline-ai-diplomacy-vision-key-shanghai-forum-2026-07-16/ https://www.reuters.com/world/china/chinas-xi-outline-ai-dip... Reuters is reporting that Xi is planning to endorse open source/weights AI in a speech tomorrow. This is probably highly relevant to why Moonshot is committing to making Kimi open weights.
- rsanek 2mo agoAA results are out: https://artificialanalysis.ai/models/kimi-k3 https://artificialanalysis.ai/models/kimi-k3
- codedump 2mo ago[dead]
- hkalbasi 2mo agoWhat about the cyber security capabilities? Given that this model is probably not guardrailed like Fable, would we see a wave of zero days?
- deleted 2mo ago[deleted]
- FutureTrunks 2mo agoSome of the gameplay clips coming out from Kimi K3 look insane, going to be a very interesting few months at the end of this year
- est 2mo agohttps://macos27.kimi.page https://macos27.kimi.page who made this? Looks pretty complete.
- ele11 2mo ago[dead]
- toephu2 2mo agoFor comparison, a human brain has roughly 100 trillion synapses, which are sometimes loosely compared to about 100 trillion AI parameters.
- anigbrowl 2mo agoThis might be the most impressive website generator demo I've seen: https://macos27.kimi.page https://macos27.kimi.page Context from the person who prompted it: https://x.com/mweinbach/status/2077827886149439547 https://x.com/mweinbach/status/2077827886149439547
- MiSeRyDeee 2mo agoThis is seriously impressive, it built a file system under the hood? I was able to create files, copy around and view/change it with terminal and UI. Absolutely insane
- kristiandupont 2mo agoYou can quit apps from the activity monitor. It really does appear to be simulating an OS underneath. I am blown away.
- malshe 2mo agowhat app is he using on his phone to prompt this?
- -1 2mo agomanual programming as a profession will be dead very soon
- jdthedisciple 2mo agoInsane...
- olmo23 2mo agoEven the terminal works, this is madness. I was able to create a temp folder, echo hello > world, and then I could open the folder in finder and double-clicking the file opens it in a GUI text editor.
- alexgoodhart 2mo agoThis is wild. Do you think it's really a one prompter? K2.5 had a linux frontend one-shot for display that was very good looking and smooth but very little of it had function. Should I just like, idk, stop using subscriptions and API this shiz?
- m00dy 2mo agoThis will put Kimi's valuation at least $0.5T
- rw2 2mo agoThe amount of scientific talent in China is astounding, also it's easier to be a fast follower than a innovator. Instead of limiting models and debating ethics like Anthropic, the edge lab should focus on lengthening the lead on China. The 2027 Chinese model could be one that beats the US.
- dgellow 2mo agoThe idea that china doesn’t innovate is ridiculous
- bigyabai 2mo ago> Instead of limiting models and debating ethics This is what liability management looks like for proprietary models. If it's not out in the open, then you can be held directly accountable for generating the tokens that kill people. They're having these conversations to avoid being held liable, not because they're offended by people dying because of AI.
- yogthos 2mo agoHas anybody been held liable? https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2026/06/usa-four-months-after-horrific-minab-school-airstrike-accountability-delayed/ https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2026/06/usa-four-mont...
- el_io 2mo agoNo because USA is free to murder people, overthrow government. Citizens will cheer for their government, but they're scared about hypothetical scenarios where China win AI race.
- rw2 2mo ago[flagged]
- bigyabai 2mo agoThat's reaching speculation, and a hell of a hypothetical to base your entire argument on. The "edge AI labs" are both begging for more regulation and a stronger federal presence in their development. Their desire is to be embedded in the killing machine where the monopoly on violence applies, and then abdicate themselves in civil suits when they're held accountable for ethical dilemmas. To get away with it, they have to limit the average Joe and upsell the government the full product.
- shouryamaanjain 2mo agoreally loving this model for brainstorming
- trymas 2mo agoWith this news - another week of Fable extension for subscribers coming right up.
- arjyuunn 2mo agoCan i trust these benchmarks?
- smalljelly2018 2mo ago[flagged]
- hmxrye 2mo agoFrontier Intelligence K3 tokenisation of language processing is closer to a market research application. [1]: NLP: natural language processing [2]: MLP: machine language processing The former are subject to iterations of 26 characters, 0-9 integers, recombination of "tokens." The latter are not object oriented, iterating to the boolean 0-1 disjunction, separating window management programming interfaces from dropping into POSIX.
- jdthedisciple 2mo ago> While its overall performance still trails the most powerful proprietary models, Claude Fable 5 and GPT 5.6 Sol I'm inclined to believe that, however according to their own benchmarks Kimi K3 actually even beats the other two in many metrics, no?
- darkoob12 2mo agoBenchmarks are meaningless. You can beat any model on any benchmark with the right training.
- Marudhu09 2mo agoCan't wait to see the full potential
- laichzeit0 2mo agoBased on my usage of Fable on the max plan, Anthropic is going to have to at least double the usage limits for it to be a viable option in the near future. And without Fable, the value proposition quickly drops to zero.
- bel8 2mo agoI guess this is why Anthropic keeps extending their Fable credit window for subscriptions. They probably knew a Fable contender was coming and hit the panic button, twice.
- wolvesechoes 2mo agoSilicon Valley and Wall Street are cancer that should be cleansed with fire. If western societies couldn't lit the fire themselves, it is up to the Chinese dragon to burn it.
- przemarzec 2mo ago[flagged]
- joshuaS98 2mo agoAaaaaaaaaand the AI Bubble popped
- rajnathani 2mo agoImpressive performance (also the part about Delta Attention, which seems interesting). Not trying to start a flamewar thread, but isn’t every Chinese LLM censored on certain major political topics? I understand that fine-tuning at least DeepSeek can remove this, but just saying.
- rvz 2mo agoThis is why Anthropic is scared of open weight models. Because they are just too good.
- gck1 2mo agoGPT 5.6* throw fits on anything even remotely related to reverse engineering, and I'm not ever paying anything more than $20 to Anthropic anymore. How's Kimi in this area?
- foax 2mo agoI've used K2.6 and K2.7 for binary reversing with a Ghidra skill. Very competent at mapping out flows and patterns, working in tandem with me too implement what I wanted to implement. I couldn't persuade GPT 5.6 to do this either. Was very impressed by Kimi, though it was on the slow side.
- bel8 2mo agoI used K2.7 to reverse engineer a protocol from Wireshark packages. No complaints. K3 should be fine too.
- hdjdjdjdjdjdjd 2mo ago[dead]
- 1g10k 2mo ago[flagged]
- abalashov 2mo agoI switched to exclusively Chinese models, mostly Kimi, many months ago. I'll still ask Claude questions that require ambitious real-time web search / worldly knowledge, but for just about anything else, the Chinese models have been so good that I haven't looked back.
- mattstir 2mo agoI think that those two statements are somewhat contradictory of one another. But in any case, I'm curious about your decision to still use Claude for some questions. Do you find the Chinese models have less worldly knowledge, and if so in what categories? Genuinely curious, I haven't had a chance to try them out very much.
- abalashov 2mo agoMy use of "worldly knowledge" might have been sloppy. I really meant "real-time worldly knowledge". The American chatbot apps are just very polished on live web search and tool use, and the models are very eager to do it. Chinese models are perfectly capable of that, but you need to bring your own MCPs (at least, if you want anything beyond WebFetch) and steer the model toward greater eagerness to use them.
- deleted 2mo ago[deleted]
- trollbridge 2mo agoI did the same, although last week we switched back to GPT-5.6 since OpenAI is giving the farm away pricing/reset wise.
- Painsawman123 2mo agoThis is the perfect opportunity for anyone who wants to boycott Anthopic and OpenAI!Anyone who cares about the future of Ai has no excuse to continue relying on companies that want to have a monopoly on intelligence.
- spiderfarmer 2mo agoI wonder if the clique around Peter Thiel still thinks "Competition is for losers!".
- program_whiz 2mo agoI think your response might be sarcasm, but actually this very situation demonstrates the truth of the adage. In this case, competition and information-sharing is driving intelligence to become a commodity, with ever shrinking margins above compute+hardware. If this is the case, the incumbents can't recoup the many billions they have borrowed. Cornering a market makes a winner, a winner who can charge large margins on a product you don't have an alternative to. However, the point you might be thinking of is "competition is good for consumers" which is true. Thiel's sentiment was "competition makes companies into losers", as they become low-margin commodity factories, which is also true.
- Havoc 2mo agoUS labs must be sweating bullets. Not on tech side, but on finance. They have a pile of debt and VC expectations that count on vast future profitability
- binary132 2mo agoI don’t think the timing of Trump’s recent sabre-rattling at China is any coincidence
- program_whiz 2mo agoYep, time to pay back those campaign contributions in the form of "chinese models embargo". USG has already shown more than willing to dabble in picking what AI companies can do what. Actually its interesting, I wonder if the recent freezes on Fable/Mythos and GPT 5.6 where actually prepping so that a "chinese model not allowed" play would be more pallatable / excusable. But then again, that's attributing 4d chess to an admin that has been making rookie mistakes.
- jchook 2mo agoHave a strong feeling that Anthropic solicited the ban from Lutnick as part of their, “so powerful it’s a national security threat” marketing campaign. Pretty evident as they kicked it off with self-imposed limits (“0days on every OS”) etc, OpenAI didn’t get the same treatment, and the ban was conveniently lifted as soon as they needed to compete.
- binary132 2mo agoIt can be both — I’m sure the administration would like our stock market not to get ruined by foreign undermining of American AI research companies, and I’m equally sure Anthropic would like to achieve regulatory capture.
- rektomatic 2mo agoMaybe the whole windows/linux thing is an apt comparison? Linux is OS and arguably runs the internet yet windows is still a cash cow. The paid-for models are like windows, the OS models are like linux?
- jcmontx 2mo agoChina is poking the bubble and it might aswell pop it
- merelydev 2mo agoSo what now? USA blocks Chinese AI. US companies use expansive closed source AI while the rest of the world use cheap self hostable open source AI from China?
- cmrdporcupine 2mo agoK3 is not cheap or self-hostable.
- jp0001 2mo agoI really don't see how the SaaS models will be profitable if this continues, all the money will be in providing consumers with hardware that can run these locally - with the ability to modify the weights and do your own ablation.
- herfstvalt 2mo agobruh, 2.8T. there arent going to be much consumers for that anytime soon with the current ram priceslol
- vablings 2mo agoThe reason why the price is so high is due to megascalers, production is gearing up more and more since it looks like this is in for the long haul. I would imagine in 5-10 years there will be cheaper prices for consumers.
- lrsaturnino 2mo agoI'm disappointed. After all the buzz and benchmarks, I've tested with my personal benchmark that simulates real-world day-to-day specs for agentic coding, following instructions across long time walls, changing several files and code requirements with separation of concerns to build a complete Saas e2e - it reaches a similar rating as DeepSeek V4 Flash.
- bel8 2mo agoWhat harness? These can make or break benchmarks because of tool call failures/limitations. And is the benchmark open source?
- lrsaturnino 2mo agoPi. The benchmark is local, mostly stuff from my work, I run it everytime a new model comes up. The top model rn is gpt 5.6 sol, followed by fugu ultra, fable, opus 4.8, gpt 5.5 and glm 5.2 (which is the REAL IMPRESSIVE one still). Kimi-k3 is 14th in the list.
- bel8 2mo agoCool, and how is it ranked?
- bredren 2mo agoI just tried this on the monthly $18 plan, having it do a basic task with its 2.7 model and then audit it using k3. K3 got into some loop trying to run docker and after maybe the 6th attempt ran out of quota for the 5 hour window which represents 20% of the weekly. I run 200 max and chatgpt pro, but I had to blink at that. K3 didn't even write out what it was doing or provide any sense for why it was pursuing the execution path it was. I'm in disbelief that this is a groundbreaking model, and do not think it represents a threat to Claude Code or Codex at this time.
- lossolo 2mo agoHave you used the same session for audit? so switched to K3? or used a new session for K3? K3 is sensitive to this, they wrote about it on their blog.
- bredren 2mo agoDo you have a link handy? I used same session, set it to k3 model. I’ll look at the blog but the result was so bad I am prepared to abandon. I should have saved the output. I think maybe it was a mistake to not use open router.
- dannyw 2mo agoK3 is very different to K2, I wouldn't be surprised if there are different system prompts, parsing templates, etc; which confuse/poision the model's context.
- bredren 2mo agoI can believe it, but if it is such a threat, why not warn or prevent it from harness level? I'm remembering now warnings to this effect early on in CC.
- zftnb666 2mo agoAnother Chinese model, another payment wall. Great technology, same Alipay/WeChat problem.