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U.K. orders Apple to let it spy on users’ encrypted accounts

• rchivalry 2y ago
  Encryption is encryption. Purposely breaking it defeats the purpose.
• rchivalry 2y ago
  Encryption is encryption. If this is for dirt digging or evidence for police... then make the person provide it instead. Spy agencies just have to deal with it. Sure there are other ways of tapping information.
• smsm42 2y ago
  I'm pretty sure this is not unique to Apple. They likely served the same order to Google, Microsoft, and any other major provider that has any user data. And most of them complied without objection.
• DarkmSparks 2y ago
  Seems like the UK really does need Musks help(1). 1: https://x.com/elonmusk/status/1876174862747930717?lang=en https://x.com/elonmusk/status/1876174862747930717?lang=en
• hunglee2 2y ago
  US tech needs to obey the laws of the country in which it operates. I am sure the demands of UK government are more than reasonable - and, as it is a democracy - as full endorsement of the people / users
  • spacebanana7 2y ago
    It doesn't. Apple could play hardball and threaten to withdraw from the UK market, with a propaganda notification like TikTok did. They could also appeal to Trump/Elon for help. Also the wider part of this order is that Apple would access to the international users data, including US customers, if I understand the article correctly.
    • card_zero 2y ago
      They're currently antagonizing Trumpelon by refusing to halt DEI stuff, so they might not get any help.
      • wkat4242 2y ago
        I'm glad at least some companies stick to their values.
      • spacebanana7 2y ago
        Tim Cook is a master of negotiating with governments. See how he played off China and the US during Trump's first term to avoid both American tariffs and Nike-style Chinese boycotts. If he's antagonising Trump it's for a reason. Perhaps to avoid showing weakness by being too keen.
      • Marsymars 2y ago
        > They're currently antagonizing Trumpelon by refusing to halt DEI stuff, so they might not get any help. I'd probably categorize that more as "declining to halt" rather than "refusing to halt", AFAIK the US government doesn't have an actual law/mandate/whatever for non-governmental organizations on that front.
  • sigwinch28 2y ago
    I’m from the U.K. and I consider the government’s actions around digital privacy to be somewhere between incompetent and malicious.
    • aaronmdjones 2y ago
      Same here.
    • cbeach 2y ago
      Same here.
    • Digit-Al 2y ago
      Anyone who watched Monkey Dust in the 90's will suspect that the government is under the thrall of the Paedofinder General.
    • ben_w 2y ago
      Indeed. The Investigatory Powers Act 2016 was one of the big things (before Brexit) that made me realise the UK wasn't a suitable place to run a tech business. It hasn't noticeably improved.
  • ben_w 2y ago
    > I am sure the demands of UK government are more than reasonable - and, as it is a democracy - as full endorsement of the people / users "Full endorsement" of the electorate isn't how representative democracy works. Given FPTP, the government got a huge majority of seats with 33.7% of the votes, but as there's not universal voting that's only 14% of the actual population, and even with those who did vote it's not clear how many people were voting "not the other lot".
• Ekaros 2y ago
  The government did get more than third of the votes. So this is the choice of democratically elected government and the voters and as such should be followed.
  • kazinator 2y ago
    I have to give you a full up vote since they don't come in thirds.
  • Nasrudith 2y ago
    [flagged]
    • eadmund 2y ago
      Of course, the U.K. is rather famously not a republic, but rather a democratic monarchy. Now, if only the King would do his job and refuse assent to the Parliament when it does something wrong.
      • card_zero 2y ago
        The King is only two years younger than Trump, and has cancer. His main interests are watercolor painting, traditional architecture, homeopathy, the Goon Show, and vegetables. He was never likely to do anything confrontational.* I wonder if a future King William might try something like this, though. * Come to think of it, Hitler liked three or four of those things too, so this is less demonstrative of character than I imagine.
  • CoastalCoder 2y ago
    Huh, I guess 1/3 isn't rational! /j
  • pjc50 2y ago
    This sort of policy comes from the Home Office regardless of who gets elected. The spooks always want everything. You could probably make an ECHR argument about it, but even Germany who are most paranoid about Stasi-like behavior have some sort of rights carveout for law enforcement purposes.
• ggm 2y ago
  https://archive.is/3Pp0U https://archive.is/3Pp0U (Although I was able to access the article in full on the original URL)
• ggm 2y ago
  Rather than break the security promises it made to its users everywhere, Apple is likely to stop offering encrypted storage in the U.K., the people said. Yet that concession would not fulfill the U.K. demand for backdoor access to the service in other countries, including the United States.
  • kazinator 2y ago
    Jurisdiction, schmurisdiction. What's that, you know?
    • ben_w 2y ago
      And that conversation will look something like this: "If you want to sell phones in our country, you have to give us access to anyone we say is a criminal using your phones in any country". "You are asking us to break the law in those other countries." "Do you want to sell phones in our country, or not? We know you'll blink first." (Will Apple blink? I don't know. But I am confident that the UK government is filled with people who assume they will).
      • jkaplowitz 2y ago
        It depends on whether other countries make or enforce conflicting laws. The UK order says they can't tell people after implementing the backdoor that Advanced Data Protection no longer provides the claimed level of security, which is a form of dishonesty that probably violates consumer protection laws in many countries. And Apple argued to the UK Parliament when the relevant law was being enacted that it violates the right to privacy confirmed by the European Court of Human Rights, which other countries will still be bound by even if the UK follows through on its occasional threat to withdraw from the European Convention on Human Rights. The UK doesn't have the geopolitical clout it once did, especially not after Brexit.
        • ben_w 2y ago
          > The UK doesn't have the geopolitical clout it once did, especially not after Brexit. Aye. But (1) I don't think the UK government really understands that, and (2) for intelligence operations, they might still have enough. Everyone else has the exact same dichotomy of simultaneously wanting all the computers safe from other hackers while also hacking everything themselves, and many also want the added extra of guaranteed citizen's right to privacy, so legal fights like this are advantageous to most nations: all the other countries watching this get to have their cake (they can spy on encrypted comms) while eating it too (in this metaphor, when Apple is found out, they get to punish Apple and pretend to be above such things).
• ggm 2y ago
  Presumably the US government will have no compunction in using this to view US citizens private materials under UK government access rights, irrespective of US privacy law.
  • globalnode 2y ago
    They'll share the data on US citizens with their US counterparts. Thats what the US and Australia do. That way govt's can claim they dont spy on their citizens. Their allies do it for them.
    • cassianoleal 2y ago
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Eyes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Eyes
• kazinator 2y ago
  The bad guys know where to find solid open source crypto for their cloud backups and whatnot. Therefore you know this is not about chasing the bad guys. It's about keeping the Average Joe under the thumb.
  • rcxdude 2y ago
    It'll catch the bad guys who don't know what they're doing, which is a pretty big percentage of them.
    • miki123211 2y ago
      Yeah, this is likely not intended to catch the most sophisticated of hackers, but your average drug dealer / murderer / thief / paedophile. I don't know where the belief that all criminals are tech experts comes from; the popularity of cool-looking "encrypted" phones as opposed to actually encrypted apps like Signal should have long dispelled that myth. I'd argue that the opposite is probably true, people who think that crime pays are less smart and more impulsive than the average person, and hence less likely to think about things like this.
      • ben_w 2y ago
        > I don't know where the belief that all criminals are tech experts comes from; the popularity of cool-looking "encrypted" phones as opposed to actually encrypted apps like Signal should have long dispelled that myth. I think it's a case of this: https://xkcd.com/2501/ https://xkcd.com/2501/ People here work at the level of things like RowHammer, normal people don't think past the idea that a padlock icon on the screen makes them safe.
      • pantulis 2y ago
        > I don't know where the belief that all criminals are tech experts comes from; From forums of tech experts. I do not think this attempt by the authorities will be any useful, while it would initially work... well these guys may not be hackers but are not idiots and over time you will get your average baddies become tech-savvy enough to circumvent this.
• givemeethekeys 2y ago
  Apple should green bubble all UK text messages and explain that it is the law.
  • dkdbejwi383 2y ago
    Is green bubble iMessage or SMS? iMessage is barely used in the UK, WhatsApp is the default messaging platform here
    • spacebanana7 2y ago
      I'm in the UK pretty much only use iMessage/Snapchat. I had a look at the stats though and you're probably correct about WhatsApp being default, although we do have a surprisingly diverse and competitive messenger market: https://www.statista.com/forecasts/997945/most-used-messenger-by-brand-in-the-uk https://www.statista.com/forecasts/997945/most-used-messenge...
      • marliechiller 2y ago
        Id be very interested to break that data down by age. I'd hypothesise people who grew up during the dawn of social media (late 00s, early 2010s), will be strongly aligned with whatsapp whereas younger generations might be more iMessage/snapchat whatever else is out there these days. The most interesting generation would be gen X'ers. I guess theyll be a jumble of all solutions, including SMS
        • spacebanana7 2y ago
          Yeah it would be fascinating. I also suspect international social structures could play a big role. In the UK many people have friends & family that emigrated to iMessage counties like the US & Australia. But many have links to WhatsApp countries like India or even Telegram countries in Eastern Europe.
    • mewse 2y ago
      Green bubble is messages you sent via SMS (and so may have been charged by your carrier depending on your cellular plan) Blue bubble is messages you sent via iMessage. All incoming messages are grey, regardless of whether they were sent to you via SMS or iMessage.
• newscracker 2y ago
  Archive link: https://archive.is/3Pp0U https://archive.is/3Pp0U I was wondering whether this is about Advanced Data Protection, which encrypts almost all data end-to-end on iCloud. It’s only later in this report that it gets into this key detail: > At issue is cloud storage that only the user, not Apple, can unlock. Apple started rolling out the option, which it calls Advanced Data Protection, in 2022. Before stating this, the article says: > Rather than break the security promises it made to its users everywhere, Apple is likely to stop offering encrypted storage in the U.K., the people said. This means Apple would be prevented from providing Advanced Data Protection to users in the U.K. Not making Advanced Data Protection available is made worse by this requirement: > One of the people briefed on the situation, a consultant advising the United States on encryption matters, said Apple would be barred from warning its users that its most advanced encryption no longer provided full security. Apple can appeal, but is forced to comply meanwhile (until the appeal is heard) anyway: > Apple can appeal the U.K. capability notice to a secret technical panel, which would consider arguments about the expense of the requirement, and to a judge who would weigh whether the request was in proportion to the government’s needs. But the law does not permit Apple to delay complying during an appeal.
  • coretx 2y ago
    Roll out the change in the city of London first and watch the finance sector crash :D The rest of the UK probably won't have to follow suit.
  • _Algernon_ 2y ago
    If they had some balls, they would just stop offering icloud altogether in the UK until they have appealed. Let's see how the judge feels when half the country can't access their files anymore and Apple points to this decision as the reason.
    • eterm 2y ago
      Apple doesn't have the same dominance in the UK than it does in the US, so the UK would probably just tough that one out.
• oldpersonintx 2y ago
  [dead]
• ksec 2y ago
  Just make TimeCapsule for iOS and iPadOS. With option to store it fully encrypted in AWS cold storage as Apple subscription. I want my data to stay at home.
  • arcanemachiner 2y ago
    Are iTunes backups not a thing anymore?
    • ksec 2y ago
      iTunes backup requires a computer. Time capsule for iOS should be an appliance.
• cbeach 2y ago
  I’m so ashamed to be a U.K. citizen and to have both legacy parties (Tories and Labour) staunchly supporting these horrendous breaches of privacy. We have had a number of bad laws over the last ten years that have entrenched state surveillance and presumption of guilt. The only party I can see taking a principled stance on civil liberties is Reform UK, whose policy document states: > A British Bill of Rights > Our freedoms must be codified and guaranteed. Never again can our entire country be locked down on shoddy evidence and lies. Our data and privacy must be protected. Surveillance of the public must be limited and those monitoring us held to account. https://assets.nationbuilder.com/reformuk/pages/253/attachments/original/1718625371/Reform_UK_Our_Contract_with_You.pdf?1718625371 https://assets.nationbuilder.com/reformuk/pages/253/attachme... Recent polls show Reform is currently the most popular party. So there is hope.
  • stranded22 2y ago
    [flagged]
  • dkdbejwi383 2y ago
    > Never again can our entire country be locked down on shoddy evidence and lies What’s this about? Is it some mad “covid was a hoax” thing?
    • fourfour3 2y ago
      Yes - Reform UK is a far right populist party. They currently have 5 out of 650 MPs and are steadily gaining popularity - similar to the rise of other parties like AfD across Europe.
      • cbeach 2y ago
        "Far right" suggests extremism. Could you name an extremist policy that Reform have proposed?
        • fourfour3 2y ago
          Several specific ones: - Leaving the European Convention on Human Rights (joining the hallowed company of Russia and Belarus!) - leaving the World Health Organisation - get rid of net-zero climate targets, replacing them with fast-tracked approval for more North Sea oil & gas licenses and fracking - public enquiry on “Vaccine Harms”
• foundart 2y ago
  The order does not seem to apply only to users in the U.K. From the article, discussing the idea of Apple stopping offering encryption in the U.K. “Yet that concession would not fulfill the U.K. demand for backdoor access to the service in other countries, including the United States”
• throw0101d 2y ago
  See also "U.K. orders Apple to let it spy on users’ encrypted accounts": > The law, known by critics as the Snoopers’ Charter, makes it a criminal offense to reveal that the government has even made such a demand. An Apple spokesman declined to comment. * https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2025/02/07/apple-encryption-backdoor-uk/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2025/02/07/apple-e... * https://archive.is/https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2025/02/07/apple-encryption-backdoor-uk/ https://archive.is/https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology... > The Investigatory Powers Act 2016 (c. 25) (nicknamed the Snoopers' Charter)[1] is an Act of the Parliament of the United Kingdom which received royal assent on 29 November 2016.[2][3] Its different parts came into force on various dates from 30 December 2016.[4] The Act comprehensively sets out and in limited respects expands the electronic surveillance powers of the British intelligence agencies and police.[4] It also claims to improve the safeguards on the exercise of those powers.[5] * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Investigatory_Powers_Act_2016 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Investigatory_Powers_Act_2016
  • reaperducer 2y ago
    See also "U.K. orders Apple to let it spy on users’ encrypted accounts" Not just "see also." Your link is the original reporting. Without journalists and organizations like these doing hard, expensive work like this no one -- not even on HN -- would know about it. It's a shame that the link being used for the HN entry is to a blog re-writing other people's work, and not doing any of that work or sharing any of that expense themselves. Correct link: https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2025/02/07/apple-encryption-backdoor-uk/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2025/02/07/apple-e... No, I don't care if there's a paywall. Credit where credit is due is something your mom should have taught you when you were five.
• fsflover 2y ago
  Discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42970412 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42970412
  • deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
• reify 2y ago
  I doubt very much if any terrorist, criminal or child abuser is going to use any google or apple cloud service to back up their files. Anyone with a fundamental understanding of online privacy and security would encrypt any files prior to uploading them to the cloud rendering any back doors and access to those files useless and toothless. I dont use any of these services. I have never understood the thinking around uploading your private life to some server in the cloud when they are more secure on an external hard drive at home.
  • squeegee_scream 2y ago
    I think you have a very high opinion of the millions of people around the globe, with varying levels of computer literacy, who are terrorists, criminals, and/or child abusers.
    • sam_lowry_ 2y ago
      I once worked with a business lady who used her dumbphone as an argument in a discussion where we were deciding whether all our users have smartphones. She proudly displayed the dumbphone and said that if she has one, others probably have too. I learned only much later that her husband was prosecuted for fraud related to government funds. So she had a good reason to have a dumbphone. It's anecdotal evidence, but still. You are of very low opinion of people, probably assuming that you are smarter because you are some kind of IT guy. And you are likely wrong.
      • jeroenhd 2y ago
        > I learned only much later that her husband was prosecuted for fraud related to government funds. So she had a good reason to have a dumbphone. Does she? Law enforcement can wiretap and track dumbphones just as easily as smart phones. The lack of encrypted calling/texting options even make it easier for law enforcement. If she's trying to hide more fraud, the dumbphone isn't helping her. And of course if she is trying to hide fraud from law enforcement, she probably shouldn't be doing the fraud in the first place. There are good reasons for using dumbphones (smartphones distract, and it's having a serious impact on everyone these days) but avoiding being prosecuted isn't one.
• cpymchn 2y ago
  What's new here? As mentioned in the article, Salt Typhoon and the recency of this request by the UK. At this point they should know better. My pet theory is anytime the US wants to do something illegal under US law, they simply ask the UK to do it and vice versa. That's why Salt Typhoon isn't and never will be a lesson learned.
  • cpymchn 2y ago
    I recommend Susan Landau as the goto person on this. She recently spoke with Lawfare on the current state of play. [1] Susan Landau and Alan Rozenshtein Debate End-to-End Encryption (Again!) https://www.lawfaremedia.org/article/lawfare-daily--susan-landau-and-alan-rozenshtein-debate-end-to-end-encryption-(again https://www.lawfaremedia.org/article/lawfare-daily--susan-la...!)
    • EdwardCoffin 2y ago
      Formatting in link is broken. This is a direct link to the youtube version: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AWBFXiOcR88 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AWBFXiOcR88
    • layer8 2y ago
      Working link: https://www.lawfaremedia.org/article/lawfare-daily--susan-landau-and-alan-rozenshtein-debate-end-to-end-encryption-%28again!%29 https://www.lawfaremedia.org/article/lawfare-daily--susan-la...
  • eptcyka 2y ago
    It is actually Australia where the US goes to test out far-out legislative ideas before implementing them at home.
    • y-curious 2y ago
      Australia does a great job of enacting wacky authoritarian policies in the last 5 years; It would make sense to use them as a staging ground. Does any specific legislation come to mind?
• Cold_Miserable 2y ago
  [flagged]
• bilekas 2y ago
  > requires that Apple creates a back door that allows UK security officials unencumbered access to encrypted user data worldwide How could this even be enforced if Apple pulls out cloud services of the UK ? It's such a ridiculous request, the British Intelligence agencies must be bored coming up with new ways to make Apple look good.
  • cmsj 2y ago
    Apple still has legal entities in the UK. Pulling out cloud services would be insufficient to prevent the UK authorities from interfering with their activities.
    • bilekas 2y ago
      > prevent the UK authorities from interfering with their activities I'm still missing how this could be enforced ? To my layman understanding, this reads the same as if China said : "Meta, Tesla, Valve etc has entities in China therefore we get to see all data they store in the EU and the US. The UK has Zero jurisdiction in Ireland for example where a lot of EU data may be stored.
      • elashri 2y ago
        I have lived to the day that we give an example on china not doing something stupid a western democracy does about rights and freedom. Wild times to be alive. I am also surprised that they demand worldwide access and not just UK users data or all the data stored in UK jurisdiction. But this is going too far.
        • mathw 2y ago
          And if you think China and the USA and Russia wouldn't want it... hey I've got this bridge for sale.
          • idle_zealot 2y ago
            The difference is that China and Russia have the sense to spy on foreign citizens with hackers, trackers, and other covert means. Somehow the UK feels entitled to Apple doing their espionage for them, and has the gall to ask publicly. Note that this is not China apologia: they do the same brazen shit locally, but they're an authoritarian regime. I have lower expectations for human rights there.
• latexr 2y ago
  > When asked by The Post whether any government had requested a backdoor, Google spokesman Ed Fernandez did not provide a direct answer but suggested none exist: "Google cannot access Android end-to-end encrypted backup data, even with a legal order," he stated. No, that does not suggest none exists, it only says they don’t have access to it. They could have chosen or have been ordered to give the keys to the government agency but not keep one themselves. I’m not saying that’s likely, just that it’s important to not take these statements as saying more than they do. They wouldn’t hesitate to use “technically correct” as a defence and you have to take that into account.
  • JW_00000 2y ago
    But if they could give a key to the government agency, it wouldn't be end-to-end encrypted, right? Or are you thinking they would have a copy of users' keys that they gave out? (Which I guess is technically possible.)
    • aqme28 2y ago
      They could also cripple user key-generation. E.g. they choose random primes from a known subset. It would make communication crackable while also being difficult to detect.
    • jonhohle 2y ago
      It would be no different from how multiple devices and users access the same content (chat, shared data, etc.). The government’s keys would always be included in set which encrypts the real key. They don’t need the users’ key, Apple doesn’t need their private keys. So technically still end to end encrypted, just with a hidden party involved. Users have no way of knowing this doesn’t already happen. And when their key leaks, it’s as good as no encryption, but still end-to-end encrypted.
      • deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]
    • theshrike79 2y ago
• botanical76 2y ago
  This is so disheartening. I thought we were making progress in the anti-surveillance privacy narrative, but this says otherwise. As a UK citizen, is there anything I can do to dissuade this? edit: typo
  • csmattryder 2y ago
    > I thought we were making progress in the anti-surveillance privacy na[rra]tive What lead to to believe that? The Conservatives and Conservative-Continuity governments both agree that our data simply must be in the hands of the police, DEFRA, and your local council. RIPA will never be repealed and only strengthened.
    • snapcaster 2y ago
      I don't disagree with your analysis but i wouldn't be so fatalistic. This stuff _isn't_ inevitable and i think it's possible to win people over to our side. Things can change for the better, but they won't unless people who care don't give up
      • csmattryder 2y ago
        Ahh, I used to have that opinion, but I've encountered too many "It's fine if they want it, I've got nothing to hide" people. (They never give you their Facebook password if you ask, though. Funny, that.) Change what you can, I say, VPN on the network device.
        • dijksterhuis 2y ago
          focus on the John Oliver dick pic argument. https://www.wired.com/2015/04/john-oliver-edward-snowden-dick-pics/ https://www.wired.com/2015/04/john-oliver-edward-snowden-dic... > When Oliver shows Snowden evidence that all typical Americans care about is whether the government can see our "dick pics," he encourages Snowden to go through a list of every government surveillance program and explain its capabilities in terms of access to "dick pics."
• sharpshadow 2y ago
  Question: Would it be technically feasible to make an Apple app which encrypts/decrypts the files used in iCloud and is able to use iCloud itself? As a solution to never have unencrypted files in iCloud.
  • layer8 2y ago
    That's only possible for the files owned by the app. Apps have no access to other unrelated apps' iCloud data.
  • EVa5I7bHFq9mnYK 2y ago
    My gf doesn't have iCloud. She makes a backup from time to time by connecting her iphone to her macbook, encrypts the backup folder with 7z, and then I store the resulting file in my dropbox. I follow the same procedure with my Android phone, no google cloud. BTW anything I upload to Dropbox is encrypted first.
    • echelon_musk 2y ago
      In case you don't already know, if you don't encrypt an iPhone backup with macOS first the backup won't contain _all_ of your data. Apple says "Encrypted backups can include information that unencrypted backups don't" however the list they give is non-exhaustive. You might find yourself disappointed when trying to restore a non-encrypted backup that you've encrypted yourself in a disaster scenario.
      • EVa5I7bHFq9mnYK 2y ago
        Thanks, will tell her to encrypt twice. Anyway, there is no critical info there, mainly photos.
      • alt227 2y ago
        Surely you can just open the archive and check whats in the backup yourself to satisfy that?
        • 2y ago
• maeil 2y ago
  From the macrumors thread: > So much for personal liberties. I'd like to give Labour the benefit of the doubt and assume this is a holdover from the last government knowing how fast the civil service actually works but given the Tory 3.0 plan they are going with I wouldn't put it passed them. >We didn't vote for this. You very much did vote for this, you voted for Labour under Keir Starmer and he did not particularly hide his being tory-lite. If one is surprised by this they must not have paid any attention before voting.
  • scrlk 2y ago
    Have people forgotten the authoritarian tendencies of the 1997–2010 Labour governments? This is nothing new.
  • blibble 2y ago
    quite why Labour deserve the benefit of the doubt on anything authoritarian I don't know Labour was behind: - forced key disclosure (Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act 2000), still in force - 72 day detention without charge (Terrorism Act 2006), defeated before it became an Act - national identity register and mandatory id cards (Identity Cards Act 2006), ripped up by the next Tory government - various attempts at removal of ancient right to trial by jury (partially successful) they are as bad, if not worse than the tories
    • zahllos 2y ago
      As I posted under another comment, https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communications_Data_Bill_2008 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communications_Data_Bill_200... - communications data bill 2008 / interception modernisation programme. A precursor to what became the IPA.
    • Jigsy 2y ago
      Didn't they abolish double jeopardy and introduce secret trials as well?
      • blibble 2y ago
• Havoc 2y ago
  UK tech laws seem to consistently be the worst of both worlds. Not rights centric like the EU and not business supportive like the US. Just old people making bad laws about stuff they don't understand - or are straight up citizen hostile, sometimes hard to tell which it is.
  • _t9ow 2y ago
    > Not rights centric like the EU Sadly, the EU is trying very hard and very persistently to pass the Chat Control bill. So far the EU hasn't succeeded, but I would be surprised if EU politicians didn't keep trying until it is finally codified into law.
    • alkonaut 2y ago
      There's always competing interests, but I like to look at it as a glass half full. It's the focus on rights that has ensured it's still not passed.
      • throwaway127353 2y ago
        [dead]
    • marcosdumay 2y ago
      The EU has one extremely corrupt legislative body, yes. But they are usually not a problem due to them not having any formal power.
  • harvey9 2y ago
    Ignorant rather than old. Alan Turing was born more than 100 years ago.
    • tim333 2y ago
      I looked them up and they are not terribly old but did Ancient and Modern History at Oxford - the guy who did the law and philosophy, politics and economics at Oxford - Home Secretary. I doubt they are very up on tech.
• captainbland 2y ago
  Given recent polling, we have to assume that what is MI5's today will be Reform's tomorrow. We have to ask what our government and judiciary are doing putting our privacy in the hands of the far-right.
  • ajsnigrutin 2y ago
    I never understood this kinds of arguments... both sides want to read your private data, but it's bad if 'the other side' does it? It's your current MI5/government that wants access to apples data.
    • janice1999 2y ago
      One side wants to purge large parts of the population and the other one doesn't. Yes, all parties can abuse data, but their policies do actually matter.
      • snapcaster 2y ago
        I think if you value privacy this isn't the right place to be making distinctions between parties. This only serves to alienate people and isn't the core argument. I think it's more likely to get broad support when framed as us vs. them where "us" is normal working people regardless of political affiliation and "them" is our government elites trying to spy on us.
        • captainbland 2y ago
          No, sorry, I've read too much history to buy into this line of reasoning. Authoritarians are a concrete threat to people's safety and they have a long history of abusing sensitive information about people to do so.
          • snapcaster 2y ago
            I think maybe we're talking past each other. I'm saying that when advocating for privacy, an effective framing (if winning privacy rights battles is the goal) is to make it "us" vs. "them" instead of some kind of party based push. If it's associated too strongly with a specific party it alienates too many people to ever get mass support and become a fundamental value that "everyone" agrees on
• aaomidi 2y ago
  Gross behavior. But not surprised. UK is a real surveillance state. In my honest opinion, in this specific context UK should be treated with the same scrutiny we treat China.
• hardlianotion 2y ago
  Apple should tell those ignorant fuckwits to do one.
• ksec 2y ago
  Just make TimeCapsule for iOS and iPadOS. With option to store it fully encrypted in AWS cold storage as Apple subscription.
  • odyssey7 2y ago
    This might sidestep the current order, but the U.K.’s lawyers will just write a new order.
  • reaperducer 2y ago
    Any time someone on HN starts a reply with "Just..." you know they didn't think it through.
    • ksec 2y ago
      Care to explain yourself?
      • reaperducer 2y ago
        Which word did you not understand?
        • ksec 2y ago
          So which part of Time Capsule is not a good idea? Since you said directly I didn't think it through. But given how rude you have replied and I have already given you the benefits of doubt to explain, may be better not to reply. From an account of 30k karma I expected better.
• throwaway106382 2y ago
  [flagged]
  • f4c39012 2y ago
    lol https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h513h-rXdQs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h513h-rXdQs
    • throwaway106382 2y ago
      instead of dumping tea in the ocean and waging a bloody war they simply have to brick a few million iphones temporarily, it would be a short fight
• Developerx 2y ago
  [dead]
• crest 2y ago
  [flagged]
  • tim333 2y ago
    As a Brit I feel you may have a point there.
  • alt227 2y ago
    Right, after all the docs leaked by Snowden et al? After it has been shown time and time again that Apple give any customer data to the US government that they ask for? Trump as your president?! Thats right, the UK is the creepy nanny state!
    • eudhxhdhsb32 2y ago
      Why can't they both be bad?
      • alt227 2y ago
        All governments are bad when it comes to citizen privacy, I think we can all agree on that.
      • talldayo 2y ago
        Because Apple is an American company. They should feel protected, enabled even, to resist censorship and surveillance under American law. American regulation should stop Apple from exporting harmful or substandard cryptography. American researchers should be working with Apple to discover dangerous exploits. America doesn't seem to care about any of that, which is why it's primarily America's fault for exporting backdoorable cryptography to the UK. Instead, Tim Cook is writing checks to the NSO Group's favorite President, fighting regulators, suing security researchers, and turning a blind eye to Elon illegally collecting secret Apple testimonies despite his declared opposition to Apple's business. The UK is begging for scraps, America has been mass-manufacturing dragnet surveillance for years. And Apple even keeps shut about it: https://www.macrumors.com/2023/12/06/apple-governments-surveil-push-notifications/ https://www.macrumors.com/2023/12/06/apple-governments-surve...
• jonplackett 2y ago
  I was hoping this dreamland thinking on encryption had died with our last sorry excuse for a government. I thought we had grown ups running the show now. Clearly that was optimistic.
  • dead_gunslinger 2y ago
    [dead]
• GeekyBear 2y ago
  It will be interesting to see if Apple will follow up on comments they made when this change was first floated, and remove effected services from the UK. > Apple says it will remove services such as FaceTime and iMessage from the UK rather than weaken security if new proposals are made law and acted upon. https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-66256081 https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-66256081
• flanked-evergl 2y ago
  The writing is on the wall for the UK, has been for long, and the Labour government is going out of the way to ensure there can never be any reform, even if they have no mandate. There is one way they want to go, and they will drag their population along kicking and screaming. Anyone who can should get out.
  • krn1p4n1c 2y ago
    The question is increasingly becoming “where?”. Every place seems to be moving in this direction.
    • flanked-evergl 2y ago
      Probably South American somewhere.
    • s_dev 2y ago
      Not Ireland -- Ireland so far has been immune to any global veering to the right. There are efforts though -- just not successful.
    • int_19h 2y ago
      New Zealand.
      • krn1p4n1c 2y ago
        They're seeing their own shift to the right as well. https://theasialive.com/how-progressive-new-zealand-shifted-right-a-deep-dive-into-political-landscape/2024/09/19 https://theasialive.com/how-progressive-new-zealand-shifted-...
        • int_19h 2y ago
          They elected a right-wing government, but it's pretty run of the mill, not the kind of crazy we're seeing in US and many places in Europe lately.
  • 2y ago
• negus 2y ago
  Not surprised, considering UK's ridiculous key disclosure law (United Kingdom The Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act 2000 (RIPA), Part III, activated by ministerial order in October 2007, requires persons to decrypt information and/or supply keys to government representatives to decrypt information without a court order.) that makes anyone with high-entropy random data (which is undistinguishable from the crypto-container) a criminal for "not providing the keys to decrypt"
  • Chance-Device 2y ago
    This is the way that the UK has passed laws for a while now, make them so broad that they potentially criminalise everyone, then selectively prosecute. This is a very obvious setup for future totalitarianism. I’m surprised that the British public stands for it, but I guess they must not care.
    • filcuk 2y ago
      People here are very passive and used to being pulled around. It's insane how far people's rights have eroded already. No right to protest, no right for privacy - what's next on the chopping block?
      • varispeed 2y ago
        No right to own money. That will be taken away when cash is phased out.
      • curtisblaine 2y ago
        No right to be mean on social media, too.
        • nxm 2y ago
          Who defines what is mean? Oh yes, some unelected bureaucrat
          • 2y ago
• dzonga 2y ago
  [flagged]
  • gambiting 2y ago
    >>currently been held up by migrants they don't like. What does that even mean?
    • flanked-evergl 2y ago
      [flagged]
      • gambiting 2y ago
        Can you give any example of this "preferential treatment" that people who aren't UK citizens supposedly receive?
        • flanked-evergl 2y ago
          (Cops doxx a man who burned the Koran) Manchester Police name Quran-burning suspect despite threat to life https://freespeechunion.org/manchester-police-name-quran-burning-suspect-despite-threat-to-life/ https://freespeechunion.org/manchester-police-name-quran-bur... Muslim abuser who 'didn't know' that sex with a girl of 13 was illegal is spared jail https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2268395/Adil-Rashid-Paedophile-claimed-Muslim-upbringing-meant-didnt-know-illegal-sex-girl-13.html#axzz2K9fAsqiS https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2268395/Adil-Rashid...
          • gambiting 2y ago
            Neither article specifies if either of these men are British citizens - I think you are trying to imply something, but I'm not quite sure what.
    • dzonga 2y ago
      before migrating to the u.k - immigrants prepay for services e.g nhs etc. then still get taxed when they work for those same services. & remember some of these services are not easily available. yeah NHS is free - but good luck getting an appointment at the doc. that's extra revenue for the u.k gvt. the security guards, the care workers etc - which people are working those jobs ? immigrants or spouses of immigrants. right now the conservative leader Kemi is campaining to increase permanent residency to 10 years. & citizenship to 15 years. who's gonna stay for that in a country where electricity & basic bills are expensive as hell. skilled native british people are leaving & getting replaced by migrants. the doctors at the nhs majority are foreign trained.
• Puts 2y ago
  This would mean that they would have access to everything stored in Keychain too if you have that synced with iCloud… Which I believe probably most people have. So they will essentially have access to millions of peoples email accounts then.
  • bflesch 2y ago
    They already have
• reacharavindh 2y ago
  Does it mean they already have such a backdoor on all Android phones?
• deleted 2y ago
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• deleted 2y ago
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• Funes- 2y ago
  Further proof against the idea that we live in "democracies", if anyone still believes that. We're at the hands of petty tyrants. Modern societies are surveillance hellholes, and it seems to only get worse and worse. So much for "progress".
  • pentel-0_5 2y ago
    I think Technofeudalism, as Yanis Varoufakis put it, creates inverted totalitarianism where people are controlled not directly by government with guns but with corporations with access control and moderation power over apps that form the majority of the public commons, personal, and work lives. To resist this subjugation, individuals, municipalities, and groups, large and small, need to build their castles on the bedrock of non-profit co-op services in countries with strong privacy safeguards rather than on the uncertain sands of corporate shores where they will be swept away by the next wave. It's expensive, it's starting from scratch it many cases, and not going to be as immediately polished as corporate offerings, but the socioeconomic and human capital won't be as easily destroyed, manipulated, or raided by police or corporate whims.
  • IceHegel 2y ago
    Certainly this decision seems intended to defend the state more than the people.
  • alkonaut 2y ago
    I think this is unnecessarily defeatist. The UK is still a well functioning democracy. Using scare quotes around proper democracy just blurs the line to authoritarians and dictators. We elect our politicians. We demand they stop serious crime and terrorism. When they have bad ideas about how to do that, we let them know that it's a bad idea. Or we don't elect them again. This works.
    • stiltzkin 2y ago
      [dead]
    • int_19h 2y ago
• askonomm 2y ago
  [flagged]
  • gnfargbl 2y ago
    Can you offer an example of someone being jailed for "disagreeing with the extreme left on social media," or is this an alternative fact that you've acquired via osmosis? I am aware of people being jailed in the UK for making terrorist threats on social media, and arguably those prosecutions were inappropriate, but that doesn't appear to be what you're claiming.
    • chongli 2y ago
      All you have to do is search for it yourself. It’s not just UK citizens that are affected. They’re threatening to have US citizens extradited to the UK to face charges [1] for online speech that’s protected by the first amendment. [1] https://thenationaldesk.com/news/americas-news-now/uk-authorities-threaten-extradition-jail-to-us-citizens-for-online-posts-stoking-riots-social-media-elon-musk-x-stabbing-taylor-swift-themed-event-children-dead-prime-minister-police-laws-free-speech https://thenationaldesk.com/news/americas-news-now/uk-author...
      • gnfargbl 2y ago
        I've been following the stories relatively closely, since I live here and have an interest in these things. I'm not aware of any arrests for "disagreeing with the extreme left", which is what I'm specifically asking about. It's important not to distort facts to fit a narrative. As you probably know, we don't have first amendment protection in the UK.
        • chongli 2y ago
          We're talking about US citizens -- who are protected by the first amendment -- who have never set foot on UK soil being threatened with extradition to the UK! This is not justifiable.
• throwaway290 2y ago
  Surprising that UK specifically demanded a worldwide backdoor, not just backdoor for UK citizens. Looks like a good workaround for this US gov to get info on Americans via 5 eyes. DOGE was recently unable to obtain data on Americans (https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/elon-musks-doge-dealt-new-legal-blow/ar-AA1yAEmq https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/elon-musks-doge-deal...), maybe related...
  • Take8435 2y ago
    > DOGE was recently unable to obtain data on Americans (https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/elon-musks-doge-deal https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/elon-musks-doge-deal...), maybe related.. They had read/write data for a few days before being denied access https://www.wired.com/story/elon-musk-associate-bfs-federal-payment-system/ https://www.wired.com/story/elon-musk-associate-bfs-federal-...
• deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
• nick3443 2y ago
  This is fine as long as citizens get backdoors into all government accounts. They have nothing to hide after all.
• mrcwinn 2y ago
  You cannot acknowledge the existence of a request by the UK. You cannot tell users you implemented the proposed system. And you must do all of this to citizens who have no representation in your system, without the consent of their governments. It all begs the question, what else have they requested, and of those which requests were accepted secretly? Truly a pathetic example of a democracy.
  • alkonaut 2y ago
    There is only one way to respond to this. You just do not comply with this. If you are Apple you withdraw from the UK completely if necessary. But a better option is probably to just take the punishment for not complying while you appeal. The cost will be large regardless. But the reputational damage if Apple complies seems it will be larger than both the fine for noncompliance or the cost of losing all business in a large market like the UK. I think Apple has a very short window for a powerful response here. It should be re-using the famous Pirate Bay wording for maximum effect.
    • alt227 2y ago
      > You just do not comply with this. If you are Apple you withdraw from the UK completely if necessary But Apple has a massive history of complying with government data requests all over the world. They care not for user privacy one bit, and so this request is not that unusual for them.
• gadders 2y ago
  Imagine all the unfinished screenplays they will get access to.
• Lio 2y ago
  I don't think the UK government would try to put Apple out of business if they don't comply it's more likely that they would just get heavily fined until they do so. The most likely outcome, I would guess, is that Apple just stop offering Advanced Data Protection as a service in the UK rather than create some kind of backdoor. It's a weak proposition from the government because anyone with something to hide will just move it somewhere else with encryption. Honest UK consumers are the one's getting the shitty end of the stick because we're about to loose protection from criminals. Daft waste of time.
  • matthewdgreen 2y ago
    You're assuming that turning off ADP in the U.K. is sufficient to appease the British Government. The Investigatory Powers Act can also be interpreted to give the U.K. the right to ask for encrypted data from users outside of the U.K. (see Apple making this exact point in a filing here [1].) Turning off ADP in the U.K. doesn't end the controversy if that's what's at stake. [1] https://bsky.app/profile/matthewdgreen.bsky.social/post/3lhlll4ckus2o https://bsky.app/profile/matthewdgreen.bsky.social/post/3lhl...
    • Spoom 2y ago
      I mean, "Apple refuses to hand over private data to government at cost of UK business" is a pretty good headline.
      • lenerdenator 2y ago
        Give me that sort of commitment to privacy and translucent colorful cases for future Macs and Tim Apple's got my money for the next five years at least.
      • snapcaster 2y ago
        Yes, this would be something i would love to read
      • docmars 2y ago
        Give Apple a big enough incentive to negotiate with and they may very well cave. If I've learned anything about corporations, it's that money and incentives always speak louder than their purported values.
• greenavocado 2y ago
  It wouldn't be the first time Apple did extremely shady things for the government https://tidbits.com/2020/08/17/the-case-of-the-top-secret-ipod/ https://tidbits.com/2020/08/17/the-case-of-the-top-secret-ip...
  • resource_waste 2y ago
    PRISM, blocking of apps in china, giving over that data to the CCP. I believe they did similar in Russia. The FBI hackings and Pegasus stuff (Although, this is more like bad security) I should emphasize that 'I personally don't care'. I find it more interesting that people believe there is some safety in Apple products because their marketing says so. When I was younger, I used to care about these people getting taken advantage of. Today, I wonder how I can replicate the formula. Sorry pals, Apple did it and people were happy about it. I'll make people happy too, its a Noble lie... err Paternal lie :)
• pastyboy 2y ago
  "Stupid is as stupid does...", this is the same Home Office Minister, Yvette Cooper (Flipper) that says pointy kitchen knives and Amazon orders are the reason for knife crime epidemic in the UK. Next up x.com banned from the UK.
  • n1b0m 2y ago
    What is the reason?
    • rad_gruchalski 2y ago
      It’s a propaganda machine.
    • hackernoops 2y ago
      Covering for Muslim terrorism.
      • n1b0m 2y ago
        [flagged]
• joey_spaztard 2y ago
  My response would be along the lines of: "The USA fought a war in part because they did not like the use of general writs of assistance to allow agents of the British King to search peoples houses and papers where their suspicion chanced to fall. The UK lost that war so no way!"
  • axus 2y ago
    Apple Shrugged
  • autoexec 2y ago
    Not the strongest argument these days. There's no way that the US hasn't already backdoored apple's systems. They might not be sharing that access with your local law enforcement agencies, but you can bet that the NSA has a backdoor. They've likely set up camp inside Apple. (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Room_641A https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Room_641A). It seems the US lost the war to stop kings from spying too.
• tempodox 2y ago
  Maybe the EU should be glad that the UK is not a member any more.
• cedws 2y ago
  The UK government drops the ball on just about every matter the public care about, but when it comes to overreaching digital surveillance, they're absolutely obsessed.
  • talldayo 2y ago
    glances at FIVE-EYES I wouldn't characterize the rest of the world as not obsessed, really.
• arresin 2y ago
  That is an extremely corrupt and authoritarian government.
• Malidir 2y ago
  I assume its the USA using the UK to do its dirty work, as always? Hence why Trump was cheering on Starmer the other day, despite all that has gone on between them. Americans need to wake up and realise their state uses uk/israel to do what they don't want to be seen to be doing.
• devwastaken 2y ago
  time to pull business out of the U.K. then.
  • switch007 2y ago
    U.K. is as correct as U.S.A.
• octacat 2y ago
  EU/UK is like: - we care about your privacy and will not allow censorship. And the next day this or blocking DeepSeek (in Italy).
• sswam 2y ago
  [dead]
• zaphod420 2y ago
  [flagged]
• ARandomerDude 2y ago
  In 10 years we'll all be shocked to discover this headline should have read "US Tells UK to Demand Apple Create Global iCloud Encryption Backdoor".
  • brink 2y ago
    Why would you suspect that the US pushed their hand on this? This is not out of character at all for the UK.
    • alt227 2y ago
      Thats what Five Eyes does and always has done. It asks other countries for info on their own citizens so that they do not have to break their own laws in accessing their data directly.
  • willseth 2y ago
    How does Apple have any interest building encryption back doors?
    • talldayo 2y ago
      Here's Apple documenting the end-to-end encryption scheme for retrieving Push Notifications: https://developer.apple.com/documentation/usernotifications/establishing-a-token-based-connection-to-apns https://developer.apple.com/documentation/usernotifications/... Here's Apple admitting that they just bugged the Push Notification server so the NSA could read them without MITMing anything: https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2023/12/apple-admits-to-secretly-giving-governments-push-notification-data/ https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2023/12/apple-admits-to-... Suffice to say, they don't even have to backdoor the encryption to give the UK what they want. iOS users are like fish in a barrel, if you force some insecure paradigm on them they can either adopt it or leave.
• ninalanyon 2y ago
  Surely any moderately sophisticated group of criminals can simply create there own end to end encryption apps. So even if the UK, or other governments, get there own way they will only et to see the content related to the less competent criminals. Perhaps it's still worth it to some.
  • zahllos 2y ago
    As Encrochat/ANOM/Sky ECC show, not only is this possible, it actually happens.
    • cherryteastain 2y ago
      Encrochat was almost certainly a honeypot: > After the Dutch and Canadian police compromised their server in 2016, EncroChat turned into a popular alternative among criminals for its security-oriented services in 2017–2018. The founders and owners of EncroChat are not known. According to Dutch journalist Jan Meeus, a Dutch organized crime gang was involved and financed the developers.
  • talldayo 2y ago
    Surely they can make their own apps, but whether or not Apple will let them install it has always been a point of contention.
• f4c39012 2y ago
  Where is my iCloud data stored? If I visit China, is a copy stored there? If my phone is from China, but i live in the USA, where is my iCloud data? Is it replicated globally? I once asked in an Apple store, but no-one knew the answer
  • f4c39012 2y ago
    don't know why the downvote, this is a genuine question. If i bought my iPhone on holiday in Vietnam and created my iCloud account there, but live in France, where is my iCloud?
  • tredre3 2y ago
    Where your data is stored depends on the country set in your Apple Account. In your scenario your data will never be stored in China but I don't know if your USA-based account data is replicated in the EU, though. 1. https://support.apple.com/en-us/111754 https://support.apple.com/en-us/111754 says you can change your country to opt-out of GCBD. 2. https://www.bbc.com/news/business-42631386 https://www.bbc.com/news/business-42631386 says "iCloud accounts registered outside of China are not affected."
• sneak 2y ago
  There is already a global iCloud encryption backdoor. iCloud Backup is not end to end encrypted. iCloud Photos is not end to end encrypted. Apple can read all of your iMessages and see all of your photos. The governments where they operate can compel them to turn over this data. They can and do. Often. Operationally this doesn’t really change much.
  • traceroute66 2y ago
    > iCloud Backup is not end to end encrypted. iCloud Photos is not end to end encrypted. DO NOT SPREAD FUD. If you could be bothered to spend two microseconds on a search engine, you would find this[1] which states IN THE FIRST PARAGRAPH : For users who turn on Advanced Data Protection, the total number of data categories protected using end-to-end encryption rises from 14 to 23 and includes iCloud Backup, Photos, Notes and more. [1] https://support.apple.com/en-gb/guide/security/sec973254c5f/web https://support.apple.com/en-gb/guide/security/sec973254c5f/...
    • switch007 2y ago
      Whatever the opposite of fud is, you're spreading it
    • sneak 2y ago
      Approximately nobody has turned on advanced data protection. When you go to an Apple store and buy and use an iPhone, as millions do, you are prompted to create an Apple Account and log in. iCloud and iCloud Backup are automatically and silently enabled. The device automatically runs non-e2ee backups nightly. This is how almost every iPhone on Earth runs. Most people don’t even know the feature exists. Even amongst techies that know about it, almost nobody has it enabled.
      • willseth 2y ago
        The real practical reason for that is that that even techies know the risks of being wholly responsible for your encryption keys and most are comfortable with the current tradeoff. I have a couple more security minded friends who simply disable iCloud backups and make encrypted backups locally, which was available before ADP.
• deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
• throwaway127353 2y ago
  [dead]
• zimpenfish 2y ago
  It's pretty funny that as the US implodes, UKGOV, instead of grasping the opportunity to show that they're the new good option for your internet service needs, decides to blow not one but both kneecaps clean off with the doubly whammy of the OSA/Ofcom debacle[0] and now this farce. (I suppose the silver lining is that Starmer is merely sidling towards Trump as his new best mate rather than the full-throated slobbering that Johnson/Truss/Sunak would have given him.) [0] I know this is primarily the fault of the last lot but this shower of onions haven't done anything to roll it back and/or clarify WTF is going on.
• xyst 2y ago
  Black hats love this
• stainablesteel 2y ago
  well it was nice knowing you, UK
• arghandugh 2y ago
  Love swinging through here to collect the latest crop of: - that’s silly - they can’t do that legally - this makes no technical sense - this is a bad idea - this will never happen The entire globe becomes Xi Jinpeng’s China with American Characteristics after the iCloud encryption system is neutered and a court warrant is no longer needed.
  • talldayo 2y ago
    To be fair, Apple seemingly has no qualms letting the CCP surveil iCloud: https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT208351 https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT208351
    • r00fus 2y ago
      Because iCloud in China is complete separate from the rest of the world. China is not asking to see other countries’ iCloud data.
• m3kw9 2y ago
  lol the f they will
• maxglute 2y ago
  Is this something UK demanded, or a FVEY loophole from other partners. Does US still need to fiddle with legal loop holes to surveille on domestic citizens after Cloud?
• m3kw9 2y ago
  Why not just require all data on the icloud be sent to a server all unencrypted? Ain’t no difference. Apple isn’t gonna do it and Trump will tell UK to shove it
  • bdangubic 2y ago
    surely UK is going to give two shits what Trump says :)
• StackTopherFlow 2y ago
  I’d love to see a collection of every attempt to add encryption back doors to apple/iPhone products. It feels like they never stop trying.
• lasermike026 2y ago
  How about NO. Fuck off.
• rtkwe 2y ago
  It'd be nice to not have to have this fight every 3-5 years but privacy is antithetical to the role of the security services so they're never going to give it up.
• amriksohata 2y ago
  Why is this not said in the same light as politics in the US? E.g trump government demands...so in this case its Labour's Starmer government?
• biohcacker84 2y ago
  Constitutionally guaranteed privacy and free speech have made America... the world leader. America used to push the rest of the world to give their people those rights. Used to....
• magwa101 2y ago
  [dead]
• smeeger 2y ago
  the UK needs to be slapped in the face. wake up man!
• nico 2y ago
  If it happens, likely the main beneficiary of this would be the US govt Through Five Eyes the US agencies could, via the UK, get global access to iCloud accounts No need to change US law
• jrexilius 2y ago
  So UK gov is demanding similar access as China? Not a good look for a supposed free democracy..
• Kim_Bruning 2y ago
  For years, law enforcement pushed for encryption backdoors, arguing they were necessary to combat crime and terrorism. In the US, after Salt Typhoon compromised telecom networks—including court-authorized wiretap systems—the FBI has now (somewhat reluctantly, I think) started advising government officials to use end-to-end encrypted apps like Signal and WhatsApp to protect themselves. [1] I think the UK government is running a bit behind wrt Encryption. [1] https://www.npr.org/2024/12/17/nx-s1-5223490/text-messaging-security-fbi-chinese-hackers-security-encryption https://www.npr.org/2024/12/17/nx-s1-5223490/text-messaging-...
  • pmlnr 2y ago
    No, the government is always exempt. Citizens shouldn't be allowed e2e, the government, that's ok.
    • selendym 2y ago
      The problem with this line of thinking is that the government is, of course, composed of... individual citizens.
      • pmlnr 2y ago
        I don't want them to be, they make themselves exempt. It's bad. It's one of the causes that triggered the French Rebellion in 1793: one rule for them, one for us?
    • Kim_Bruning 2y ago
      They do seem to think that way sometimes, don't they? But the counter-argument here is: if the civilian E2E apps had also/already been backdoored, they'd be entirely out of options now.
• b8 2y ago
  Not surprising as the UK wants to ban E2EE too.
• renecito 2y ago
  good luck with that :D
• hassleblad23 2y ago
  Complete waste of time. At this point I am not sure if its Europe not wanting to understand, or the lack of abilityto understand.
• elevatedastalt 2y ago
  I feel Apple is one of the few companies that has the market power to say, Fuck you, we will just not sell or offer any services in your market, and I suspect that would be enough for voters to knock some sense into their government.
  • switch007 2y ago
    What makes you think they'll do that? Any previous examples? China maybe?
    • bagels 2y ago
      They probably won't, but it'd probably work
    • GeekyBear 2y ago
      It is what Apple publicly said they would do if the UK attempted this. https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-66256081 https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-66256081
      • switch007 2y ago
        Well that's just negotiation and PR. That's why I asked about previous examples - judge them by what they do, not say Guess we'll have to see what happens in a few months
        • GeekyBear 2y ago
          It' s also what they testified they would do. >Apple previously made its stance public when it formally opposed the UK government's power to issue Technical Capability Notices in testimony submitted in March 2024 and warned that it would withdraw security features from the UK market if forced to comply. https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2025/02/uk-demands-apple-break-encryption-to-allow-govt-spying-worldwide-reports-say/ https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2025/02/uk-demands-apple...
• localghost3000 2y ago
  This kind of thing makes me furious. I know there’s the EFF but what can someone concerned with privacy advocacy do in the face of these kinds of things? Are there orgs and political movements that are out there already? Privacy is a human right. IMO it’s one of the big issues of our time.
• blindriver 2y ago
  The US is the only country with codified freedoms from the government. Every other country has rights given by the government to their citizens. The US may suck every now and then, but the US constitution is one of the best things in human history. It protects us from governments like the UK that don't think they have any limits to control their citizens.
  • smodo 2y ago
    How do you mean? Who upholds those codified freedoms? Many democratic countries have similar fundamental laws that are explicitly hard to change or bypass. In the end though all rules are either enforced by some authority or they are mere suggestions. The USA doesn’t seem like a special case to me?
    • gsk22 2y ago
      > Many democratic countries have similar fundamental laws that are explicitly hard to change or bypass. What exactly constitutes "hard to change"? In many countries, fundamental freedoms are regular legislation which can be overturned in the usual manner. Even a threshold of 2/3 or 3/4 to change is much easier to overcome than the federated constitutional amendment process in the US.
      • trinix912 2y ago
        There are also countries that have a constitution that cannot be overturned like a regular legislation. It's not like the US is the only place that has it that way.
        • gsk22 2y ago
          Right, I didn't mean to imply it was a US-only phenomenon -- plenty of countries have fundamental rights enshrined in their constitutions, with varying degrees of difficulty to amend. I was specifically responding to the claim about countries that instead have "hard to change" laws, since laws are typically much easier to repeal than constitutions.
• isaacremuant 2y ago
  The funny thing is that anyone pointing out authoritarianism will get downvoted with a whole bunch of partisan arguments or left/right false dichotomies. Here we are, though, at the point where the government overreach for these "beacons of democracy" such as US and UK do this often and by design and we're all supposed to pretend "thing are fine, trust us". Next they'll push some other overreach using children, terrorism, drugs or some other usual excuse and people will defend it pretending the government has good intentions and largely works for the people.
• pmarreck 2y ago
  I hope Apple's answer is simply: "No."
• adamtaylor_13 2y ago
  The complete lack of any kind of technological understanding by the people in power of most major governments is a huge existential risk. Thankfully businesses like Apple are completely staked on privacy, but Apple is actually big enough to give a middle finger to the UK. Other companies might not be able to.
  • talldayo 2y ago
    Apple frequently acquiesces to privacy-diminishing demands from demonstrably unnecessary markets like China and Russia. They are also card-holding members of PRISM and admit to being part of warrantless surveillance efforts[0] in America. If you're holding out on Apple, a company that has proven to betray every principle they claim to stand for, to defend privacy when money is on the line, then you've been fooled. I don't know how many times Hacker News has to say it before you chumps learn, but Apple is not a privacy-committed company. Being able to point at whitepapers is not the same as knowing how your device functions. [0] https://www.macrumors.com/2023/12/06/apple-governments-surveil-push-notifications/ https://www.macrumors.com/2023/12/06/apple-governments-surve...
  • hackernoops 2y ago
    >The complete lack of any kind of technological understanding by the people in power Naive implication. They're authoritarian henchmen.
  • AlgebraFox 2y ago
    Apple is a hypocrite. They already were a huge partner to NSA's PRISM and China's surveillance programs. Their privacy marketing is solely because they could not tolerate profits made by Google and Meta. Now they also want to become ad company. Even if you ignore the above points, Apple's software is closed source. You cannot change OS or install any unapproved app on your own phone. Apple phones are Orwellian's wet dream. If people still trust bigtech then society is doomed.
  • alt227 2y ago
    > businesses like Apple are completely staked on privacy This is completely false. It has been shown time and time again that Apple will bend to whatever data requests the US government ask for. You may think they care about your privacy, because they tell you they do. But they are legally bound to say that. Every surveilance program they have ever been part of has had a legal requirement to lie publicly about its existance. Then when it becomes public through a leak, they are able to say 'Sorry we lied, we had to by law'. Heres just one example: https://www.macrumors.com/2023/12/06/apple-governments-surveil-push-notifications/ https://www.macrumors.com/2023/12/06/apple-governments-surve...
• stalfosknight 2y ago
  Why must the UK be like this?
  • talldayo 2y ago
    Faux privacy gets what faux privacy deserves.
• 1vuio0pswjnm7 2y ago
  Funny that the government does not need to order people to divulge their private communications. It can just order to a third party do so. Wait, why does a third party have access to peoples' private communications. That is the Apple design. The company wants people to use their servers.
  • marcosdumay 2y ago
    > Wait, why does a third party have access to peoples' private communications. If you take the information at face value, they don't. The government is mandating them to actively infiltrate into people's private communications.
• caycep 2y ago
  Does apple have a canary provision in their EULA / TOS somewhere?
• Andrew_nenakhov 2y ago
  New tariffs on UK in 3... 2... 1... ?
• joemazerino 2y ago
  All of a sudden, 100 nerds start seeing the UK government for what it's been: tyrannical.
• aucisson_masque 2y ago
  > the law actually makes it a criminal offense to reveal that the government even made such a demand. Why is it tho ? The government has something to hide ? i mean it's complete bullshit, citizen have the right to privacy and government has the obligation of transparency and being accountable to its citizens. When did the UK turned into a middle east dictatorship ? > Google has enforced default encryption for Android phone backups since 2018. When asked by The Post whether any government had requested a backdoor, Google spokesman Ed Fernandez did not provide a direct answer but suggested none exist: "Google cannot access Android end-to-end encrypted backup data, even with a legal order," he stated. That is absolutely laughable. If the uk government couldn't access google data, they would have ordered google the same thing they did with apple. Apple theoretically can't access their user data when e2e encryption is enabled yet the uk government doesn't care. how does that differ from google ? once again, if you want your data to be safe from google, apple, and the others you got to avoid all cloud and resort to use good old hard drive with encryption. the only ones getting fcked are once again the average people who don't have much to hide in the first place, the pedophiles and terrorist they are much more aware than the old fart at the government on how to stay hidden.
• 0xedd 2y ago
  [dead]
• mistercheph 2y ago
  UK is a dystopian nightmare, very grateful to the founding fathers for sending them back to the island.
• DarkBell13 2y ago
  The extraterritorial effect of the law is profoundly troubling, especially the prohibition on revealing the existence of the Technical Capability Notice. However, Apple would almost certainly be subject to lawsuits in the US and EU if it secretly added a backdoor to iCloud Advanced Data Protection, because doing so would violate their privacy policy and would likely give rise to fraud claims. They could kill iCloud Advanced Data Protection entirely, or they could add a backdoor and say there is a backdoor, but they could not, without being exposed to liability, secretly add a backdoor while simultaneously claiming that the data is end-to-end encrypted and nobody other than the user can access the data.
• bsimpson 2y ago
  > We do not comment on operational matters, including for example confirming or denying the existence of any such notices Cloaking mass privacy violations under "operational matters" is the most doublespeak bullshit I've ever heard.
• gavin_gee 2y ago
  With the increased caliber of software folks in Trumps orbit, my sense is we will have a much more informed decision from the Whitehouse on this topic and whether the US should weigh into the fray with the UK. as a side note, its really baffling what this capability would actually provide for? Any serious criminal isn't using icloud backup or even an iPhone in the first place. So this is just a shit outcome for the general population. If this goes through, I look forward to the news of the world expose on some cabinet members personal details
• sitkack 2y ago
  I am leaving the Apple ecosystem.
• matt-p 2y ago
  This really doesn't feel like a position that we'd really care about, I would wager this is something we'd be doing for our American friends.
• fdb345 2y ago
  I personally pissed all over the NCA with a Pixel 3 and a 6 digit pin + Graphene OS. UK Law Enforcement can suck my dick. Encryption works people. Use it.
  • drbscl 2y ago
    Works until they demand your passwords and threaten to label you a terrorist if you don't
  • alt227 2y ago
    The only way to get one over on the NCA is to irretreivably delete the data they want. As long as it exists, they will extort you and your family uitil you give them the keys.
• ggm 2y ago
  Apple have about 50% of the UK handset market. It's 80m terminals so that's 40m x their estimated profit of $500 per phone, so $20b (sure, currency, tax, you name it) Does Apple lose much, in future revenue if people buy out of the ecology in the UK market? At scale, sure. But then again no. It's a 3.8 trillion dollar company. This is almost noise. I don't think there will be a rush to the door. Set against overall revenue targets, they can comply and weather the storm.
• pabs3 2y ago
  I wonder how UK politicians would feel about being no longer able to use their iPhones.
• atlgator 2y ago
  Can Apple please play hardball here? Just discontinue support for iCloud in the UK. Let the people complain to their representatives.
• dehrmann 2y ago
  Also on the front page, "German civil activists win victory in election case against Musk's X" https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42975170 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42975170 They're not exactly the same, but you should have similar feelings about forcing a company to hand over data to researchers and forcing a company to install a back door for law enforcement.
  • Shakahs 2y ago
    Forcing Twitter to make public posts easily accessible is not at all the same as compelling Apple to hand over your private messages.
    • bufferoverflow 2y ago
      Not the same, but still batsh#t.
      • talldayo 2y ago
        On today's episode of "America Learns Why Europe Was Right To Enforce GDPR"
  • talldayo 2y ago
    I don't care about either, they're voluntary problems. You're a moron for trusting X with your data, you're a moron for trusting Apple with it too. It's just like how Apple defenders said with iMessage - "just buy a different phone if you care, duh." All of the sudden people start caring, acting like they never had the chance to regulate their OEM of choice. No, you get exactly what you paid for. You trust Apple, don't you? They're a prestige company, they'd never sell you out. Probably. Oops[0]. [0] https://www.macrumors.com/2023/12/06/apple-governments-surveil-push-notifications/ https://www.macrumors.com/2023/12/06/apple-governments-surve...
• justinzollars 2y ago
  The UK is as important as Zimbabwe. Zimbabwe, is probably a bit more relevant to the future. Unplug the UK. No way we should follow this law.
• somenameforme 2y ago
  There is so much utterly cynical LARPing in that article. Apple was one of the earliest members to join PRISM. [1] And given the nature of the 5-eyes surveillance [2], The British government almost certainly already has access to 'encrypted' accounts from Apple. The difference is that that access is probably not lawful, which means they need to engage in parallel construction as is already regularly done in the US [3] if/when using it in court cases. All this change would likely do is enable them to use the data directly. I felt an obligation to excessively site stuff here, because I find it bemusing anybody in tech can take such articles or topics at face value. [1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PRISM https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PRISM [2] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Eyes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Eyes [3] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parallel_construction#By_the_United_States_Drug_Enforcement_Administration https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parallel_construction#By_the_U...
  • talldayo 2y ago
    Not to mention, Apple has already sheepishly admit to implementing warrantless dragnet surveillance in the United States: https://www.macrumors.com/2023/12/06/apple-governments-surveil-push-notifications/ https://www.macrumors.com/2023/12/06/apple-governments-surve... If Apple can be compelled to keep shut about Push Notifications being bugged, who knows what else they're obligated to keep under the covers. Caveat emptor.
    • somenameforme 2y ago
      They overtly and actively lied about participation in PRISM, as did all companies involved (Google, Microsoft, YouTube, Facebook, etc) because they were legally obligated to lie about participation in it. It's all just so unbelievably fake and stupid. I suspect the main reason there's minimal to no anti-trust in big tech is because it's largely just become a branch of the US intelligence services. In some way I find the Chinese system preferable in that they're completely transparent about spying and domineering the companies within the country. The only difference in the US is we actively lie about and engage in all this utterly ridiculous LARPing that makes anybody with half a head on their shoulder just despise every player involved. About the time a country has secret courts and is forcing private entities to lie to others publicly, something has gone very wrong with the direction of the country.
• nisten 2y ago
  [flagged]
• WhyNotHugo 2y ago
  If a company starts hosting backups for millions of users across the world, the become a natural target of such court orders. The only way to prevent this is to avoid this huge, massive, centralisation. Of course, Apple wouldn’t want this. If we had lots of smaller scale hosting providers around the world (potentially dozens per country), the scope of attacking each one with such an order is much smaller.
  • aqueueaqueue 2y ago
    A home network attached storage being the ultimate. Maybe you encrypt then sync the encrypted to a cloud.
• aryehof 2y ago
  So the whole article is based on “people familiar with the matter”. I suspect that the real motivation, truth and substance lies beyond the “enrage” oriented title.
• j-bos 2y ago
  Behavior like this makes me question sourcing software releases from the UK.
• PicassoCTs 2y ago
  That is what remains when a government grows to incompetent, the fear of the citizen, who sure is planning "something" as he should, for such incompetence shall not get away. Paranoia is the subconscious awareness of institutional incompetence.
• necovek 2y ago
  Democracies around the world are increasingly looking to surveil and expose private data of their citizens, and introducing laws where simple act of defiance will become criminal. I believe we should increasingly turn to steganography as a way to ensure our privacy (obviously, combined with encryption). Something that provides simple plausible deniability but lots of data to use as a carrying medium should become the default selection (like "personal videos" — a great use for our phone cameras to build an extensive collection), so even if "identified" as potential carrier for the data, it would be impossible to convict someone over it. I can imagine a scheme where your secret passphrase defines what bits of data in a video to use to carry actual data and yet avoid changing the output too much. Obviously, coming with a non-reversible algorithm that takes into account different lossy video encoding schemes is non-trivial, though I am sure there is some (plenty?) prior art to build off of.
  • tokinonagare 2y ago
    > Democracies around the world are increasingly looking to surveil and expose private data of their citizens, and introducing laws where simple act of defiance will become criminal. Not only that, but also trying to ban platforms that don't follow their censorship guidelines (TikTok in the US, X under scrutiny in UE) and even voiding elections when the result is not good (Romania) under very slim technology-related pretense (somehow a few ads are deemed enough to cancel an election, but 24/7 oriented news from every established newspapers in another country like France is totally OK). It's becoming harder and harder to believe in said democracy when the methods are all but looking like the ones used in non-democracies.
    • tremon 2y ago
      voiding elections when the result is not good (Romania) Downvoting for this claim. Stop spreading misinformation. 1) it wasn't the government voiding the election, it was the courts 2) it wasn't because they disagreed with the results, it was because an existing law was broken (undisclosed campaign financing)
      • rolisz 2y ago
• jonplackett 2y ago
  I saw a comment earlier about this being the USA asking the UK to do this. Sounds like quite the conspiracy theory, but if the USA were not OK with this, the UK surely wouldn’t dare to take on a crown jewel in the US tech sector, potentially causing them serious problems.
  • alt227 2y ago
    US have asked for far more and far worse from Apple and been given it. Im sure UK was just following the precedent set from other governments.
    • jonplackett 2y ago
      What have they asked for and received worse than this?
• nntwozz 2y ago
  “Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.” — Benjamin Franklin
  • p2detar 2y ago
    China looks pretty safe to me. Unless you‘re a dissident of course.
• amelius 2y ago
  Isn't ARM based in the UK, and can't they make a backdoor that way?
  • anticensor 2y ago
    No, it'd be a huge overreach as ARM itself doesn't sell finished products.
• mmaunder 2y ago
  This is exactly the arrangement five eyes had with partners, spying on citizens of partner countries to circumvent laws preventing local authorities doing so.
• lrvick 2y ago
  Never use corporate controlled encryption and court orders to corporations will never impact you. If you do not control the keys and the software that controls the keys, then you are not using end to end encryption.
• hsuduebc2 2y ago
  Headline should be "Someone other than US want's to access your data and that's scandalous for some reason".
  • hsuduebc2 2y ago
    For clarification. I do not want to give them backdoor to users data. I just think that it's understendable that they too desire it.
• mariconrobot 2y ago
  everyone needs to just belly laugh. at some point. would be grand if it were collective and all inclusive
• hatwd 2y ago
  It's baffling to me that any sane, healthy person would advocate for invasion of not just one person's privacy (in the case of known or highly suspected criminal activity), but a whole country's people's privacy. (In this case, at least, the privacy of all Apple users in the UK.) Where does this problem start? Is it a basic education thing that valuing one's own and others' privacy needs to be taught to kids from a young age? For instance, in the meetings in which these ideas are proposed, why are they not considered a serious, fireable offence, like bringing up racist or sexist comments?
  • talldayo 2y ago
    > Where does this problem start? It starts with UK citizens buying iPhones and expecting their data to be private at all.
    • alt227 2y ago
      It starts with ALL citizens buying iPhones and expecting their data to be private at all.
    • hatwd 2y ago
      Is it any different with Android phones? From what I've read it doesn't seem so. My comment applies just as much to the people working at Apple and Google as to the folks in the UK government.
      • talldayo 2y ago
        It is, Android handsets are not prevented by Google from selecting an entirely different operating system if they distrust the one installed by the OEM. It is expressly the choice you would make if you expected userland encryption to be mandated broken. It doesn't protect against every attack (eg. Stingray or evil maid) but it absolutely would protect you from a situation like the one in the OP. Breaking your encryption can only work if the OEM controls your phone more than you do.
        • 2y ago
• gigatexal 2y ago
  If this passes and Apple has to break encryption worldwide I hope they leave the UK. They won’t but they should.
• deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
• kittikitti 2y ago
  The moment this happens, I will stop using an iPhone and switch to a mainline Linux phone like Pinephone. Android is far worse though and you can't even uninstall Meta apps.
• KurSix 2y ago
  Once again, governments push for backdoors under the guise of security, ignoring that any vulnerability they introduce can and will be exploited by bad actors. If Apple caves to this demand, it sets a precedent for every other country... Privacy isn't just a marketing gimmick! It's a fundamental right
• ein0p 2y ago
  I don't assume in general that any of cloud services in the US are free of government surveillance either. Your only hope for any kind of privacy is self-hosting, and using certs issued by your own CA (I strongly suspect Let's Encrypt is a honeypot). Likewise I strongly suspect Proton Mail and Signal are both honeypots. Tucker Carlson was spied on when arranging his interview with Putin, even though he uses Signal. This likely bypasses the protocol - you don't get to examine the binary that's installed on your phone. It could contain all sorts of Five Eyes special sauce, as could iOS, and the companies won't even be able to tell you about any of it. It's safe to assume that all VPNs are tapped, too, unless you run your own.
• secretsatan 2y ago
  This is fucked, TBH, i would be happier if Apple jus pulled every single aspect of their business out of the UK rather than comply with this, I don't want to get some shitty android phone, I don't care what anyone says, theu are just not as good.
• secretsatan 2y ago
  OK, We've found out Apple, but not all the others? Has google and meta got the same but maintained silence?
• mariconrobot 2y ago
  the world is gayer by the day
• silexia 2y ago
  This is why it is so important to shrink the size of the US government. As government gets bigger, it tends to make more and more demands like this. And if you refuse, they will imprison you.