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Steam, Itch.io are pulling ‘porn’ games. Critics say it's a slippery slope

• 8f2ab37a-ed6c 1y ago
  What sort of leverage can a group like this realistically have on Visa and Mastercard? Can they really make a dent in their top line?
  • spicymaki 1y ago
    Ideological alignment with the party in control of the US executive, legislative, and judicial branches gives groups like these quite a bit of leverage.
  • jandrese 1y ago
    From what I understand it was more that they found a sympathetic ear in the management suite at Mastercard and Visa. They've been wanting to do this for some time but needed political cover.
  • WorldMaker 1y ago
    Weaponized complaints to legal departments asking to enforce existing Terms & Conditions of Visa and Mastercard. It's a "squeaky wheel" problem.
  • npteljes 1y ago
    My guess is none, and that they are only used as a front for this. It really doesn't add up that a "grassroots org" from Australia that doesn't even have its own Wikipedia page can pressure Mastercard / Visa to pressure Steam to remove games. Makes zero sense. EDIT: I invite downvoters to voice their point
• hackermeows 1y ago
  I don’t know man , the porn games getting more and more weird is the slippery slope
• lily0987 1y ago
  [dead]
• righthand 1y ago
  More caving to the ultra-religious pearl grippers who just have nothing better to do than tell others how to live. All the hate speech trash and troll talk on the Steam forums is fine though. All the war games are fine though. Make sure people can validate genocide and what not but not see titties.
  • cosmic_cheese 1y ago
    No problems with violent imagery in TV and cinema either. In fact some of the most popular shows and movies are full of it. Not that I agree with censoring that (I don’t), but the double standard is puzzling.
    • mango7283 1y ago
      You answered your own question - if you go after shows with the popularity of game of thrones or games with the popularity of grand theft auto you will fail. They have picked their battle.
  • gotoeleven 1y ago
    [flagged]
  • some_random 1y ago
    This is being pushed by an Australian Feminist organization, not the American Religious Right.
    • numpad0 1y ago
      I see Mormon(LDS) churches occasionally mentioned on these topics. The Australian cult angle had only surfaced during the last week or so.
    • righthand 1y ago
      You may want to take a look at how feminist that organization actually is.
• magicmicah85 1y ago
  This is an opportunity for an entrepreneur to create a censorship-resistant platform, though, I don't know how you do it profitably when CSAM and other potentially criminal content needs to be reviewed.
  • deleted 1y ago
    [deleted]
  • FirmwareBurner 1y ago
    CSAM means material of actual kids, meaning actual victims from the real world have been harmed/abused. Weird video games on the porn side, are only fictional 3D models made of pixels, so no humans are being harmed. When I used to kill cops in GTA Vice City as a kid, 20 years ago, I wasn't killing actual cops(duh!). Has society lost their collective marbles since then, and can't differentiate what's a real crime and what's manufactured fiction anymore? Should we also ban all porn off the internet on the same logic? None of the games banned by Valve in the Visa/Mastercard scandal had any CSAM related stuff in them, they were just weird/degenerate for puritans, however they were not illegal. BTW, has anyone seen the female erotica book section in Barns & Noble? If we banned those games for being too erotic, we should also ban those books then, because in those books, women subject themselves to a lot of degenerate smut and they love reading that shit, yet nobody judges them or asks for that to be censored. So then why is society and the private sector bowing down to some screeching harpies activist group who just want to ban all stuff they dislike, even though it's all legal to the T and nobody is being hurt? Why isn't this activist group putting pressure to release the Epstein files, since actual kids have been harmed there? Are they going undercover with police officers into human trafficking orgs to fight child abuse? NOOO, of course not, it's much easier to claim you scored a victory for child abuse by going after people's video games for having computer generated pixels of kids. Get effed!
    • progbits 1y ago
      I think OP is saying someone should make a platform that hasn't lost marbles and would allow this content, but you would still want to block CSAM and that is not easy to do.
• misterbishop 1y ago
  It is alarming for credit card companies to take on a politically censorious role that supersedes legal activity. This really kicked off in 2021 when MasterCard started imposing restrictive rules on sex sites like OnlyFans. The ACLU has a campaign against it: https://www.aclu.org/news/lgbtq-rights/how-mastercards-new-policy-violates-sex-workers-rights https://www.aclu.org/news/lgbtq-rights/how-mastercards-new-p...
  • mirashii 1y ago
    I strongly disagree about this being a recent thing, this has been happening for decades at this point. 2015 article that starts "For nearly a decade, PayPal, JPMorgan Chase, Visa/MasterCard, and now Square, have systematically denied or closed accounts of small businesses, artists and independent contractors whose business happens to be about sex." https://www.engadget.com/2015-12-02-paypal-square-and-big-bankings-war-on-the-sex-industry.html https://www.engadget.com/2015-12-02-paypal-square-and-big-ba...
  • jfyi 1y ago
    OnlyFans did manage to figure it out though. Maybe this is an opportunity for them to start a gaming division.
    • colinwilyb 1y ago
      Or a credit card processor.
    • johnnyanmac 1y ago
      The thing they figured out was "people can fight back and the credit cards will back down". Onlyfans is a lot of people's income, so they will naturally fight harder than a consumer market like games to keep the lights on.
      • jfyi 1y ago
        They found another processor, CCBill. That's what they figured out.
• some_random 1y ago
  It's not a slippery slope, they're targeting non-porn games literally right now. Detroit Become Human, a very well reviewed cinematic/adventure game especially among non-gamers was one of their targets.
  • neonate 1y ago
    From the subhed: "Even games that have nothing to do with sex or abuse have been caught in the dragnet."
    • some_random 1y ago
      Yeah that's exactly the kind of framing that I am against. "caught in the dragnet" implies that there was some kind of mistake. Surely they didn't mean to argue for banning these ones, they just want to target 'porn' games. Nevermind that this started as just targeting 'extreme porn', we'll continue to say that the critics criticizing them for doing the thing that they are doing right now as arguing slippery slope.
    • gs17 1y ago
      Detroit: Become Human has abuse as significant element to its story. It came under attack from the "National Association of People Abused in Childhood" when it came out, and also from Collective Shout.
      • libraryatnight 1y ago
        This amuses me, as my wife deals with trauma from childhood abuse, and she absolutely loved that game.
        • AtheistOfFail 1y ago
          It was such a masterpiece right up there with The Last Of Us.
        • mywittyname 1y ago
          Much like some people with drug addictions love Disco Elysium, specifically because of the authenticity it has regarding substance abuse.
• ChrisArchitect 1y ago
  [dupe] Discussions: Itch.io: Update on NSFW Content https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44667667 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44667667 Australian anti-porn group claims responsibility for Steams new censorship rules https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44636369 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44636369 Against the censorship of adult content by payment processors https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44679406 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44679406
• renewiltord 1y ago
  > Violence and dehumanization of women should not be acceptable outcomes of free speech. We also have to consider whose voices are being heard, and whose are being silenced. Does free speech apply to women, to survivors of rape and sexual assault? Do we have a right to object to speech that promotes and normalizes violence against us? Every time someone insists on an escape hatch, it is immediately abused. One could have seen this coming.
  • TulliusCicero 1y ago
    > Do we have a right to object to speech that promotes and normalizes violence against us? I mean this sounds reasonable until you also consider that shows like Game of Thrones would then also be banned, and probably plenty of popular books. Hell, you could use the same reasoning to target most video games, since most video games use some level of violence.
  • some_random 1y ago
    >Do we have a right to object to speech that promotes and normalizes violence against us? Worth pointing out that their definition of "right to object" is evidentially identical to "right to censor".
    • deleted 1y ago
      [deleted]
    • renewiltord 1y ago
      Well, that's not precise. They are simply objecting. Others are listening to them. I have a right to tell you to go eat a pile of dung[0], for instance. Should you then go eat the dung, it is not that I exercised my right to make you eat dung. They are simply participating in the once-maligned "cancel culture" which was protected as "freedom of speech is not freedom from consequences". These kinds of escape hatches always have these results because one's enemies find a way to use them as well. 0: Just for the sake of argument. I'm not actually insulting you.
      • 1y ago
• ChrisNorstrom 1y ago
  [flagged]
  • wmf 1y ago
    Wired had plenty of coverage of the WikiLeaks battle with Visa/MC. Anyway, are you not aware of the "vibe shift" from "woke" to "based" that took place in November 2024?
    • ChrisNorstrom 1y ago
      Ah yes the vibe shift where the people's lives who were ruined and censored was magically undone around Nov 2024.
• dang 1y ago
  Related. Others? Against the censorship of adult content by payment processors - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44679406 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44679406 - July 2025 (189 comments) Games: No sex, please. we're credit card companies - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44675697 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44675697 - July 2025 (51 comments) Itch.io: Update on NSFW Content - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44667667 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44667667 - July 2025 (306 comments) Australian anti-porn group claims responsibility for Steams new censorship rules - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44636369 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44636369 - July 2025 (162 comments)
• garyHL 1y ago
  Same as it ever was… https://americansongwriter.com/remember-the-filthy-fifteen-40-years-ago-tipper-gore-went-head-to-head-with-obscene-musicians/ https://americansongwriter.com/remember-the-filthy-fifteen-4... https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seduction_of_the_Innocent https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seduction_of_the_Innocent https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-26328105 https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-26328105 https://www.nytimes.com/1997/02/27/business/job-insecurity-of-workers-is-a-big-factor-in-fed-policy.html https://www.nytimes.com/1997/02/27/business/job-insecurity-o... Modern neuroscience provides enough evidence to argue older generations “synced” early on to ideals of the past. They memorized some modern syntax and semantics but still align as individuals with puritanical social and tyrannical political practices of old. Not entirely their fault, it’s biology. Not something the next generations have to tolerate however. Physics is clearly ageist.
• mvieira38 1y ago
  It's unfortunate because there really isn't anything anyone can do except wait for regulation or try raising awareness/usage of crypto payments or cash by mail
  • sketchysandwich 1y ago
    how do all these other adult sites get away with charging premium subscriptions?
    • Calavar 1y ago
      Porn sites use smaller special purpose payment processors that have higher fees. It makes sense for porn sites because they only sell sexual content. If Valve and itch used those same payment processors, they'd be paying the higher premiums on all transactions, including those for nonsexual content (i.e. that vast majority of their transactions). It just doesn't make sense for them from a financial perspective.
• 2OEH8eoCRo0 1y ago
  My free speech red line is criticism of govt and leaders. Ban all the porn games ya want, I don't think they're very valuable. When did pornography become protected speech?
  • sketchysandwich 1y ago
    In what world is artistic expression not free speech? Just because you don't like it doesn't mean its not protected.
    • deleted 1y ago
      [deleted]
  • vegadw 1y ago
    That's already happening though. There's a bunch of quid pro quo for speech curtailment in the media right now. Hell, just this week Colbert lost his spot to appease the administration for the Paramount + Skydance merger. Even if it's not direct to the little guys and it's just quid-pro-quo, it's just them being smart enough to make it seem more palatable. It's the same thing.
  • pdntspa 1y ago
    Since when has protected speech required being valuable? And who made you the pronouncer of said value?
    • gs17 1y ago
      > Since when has protected speech required being valuable? For this specific topic in the US, it's necessary. The third prong of the Miller Test is "Whether the work, taken as a whole, lacks serious literary, artistic, political, or scientific value."
      • pdntspa 1y ago
        The three-pronged Miller test is for examining if something is obscene, which is a considerably narrower criteria than whether or not a given piece of free speech is worthy of protection. Speech does not need to be 'valuable' to be worthy of protection, it needs to have a specific lack of value as determined by the Miller test to not be protected. Big difference.
• kelseyfrog 1y ago
  The bitter truth is that the tech world's libertarian allergy to collective action is exactly why stuff like this keeps happening. Predictably, we get another round of "free speech on the internet is sacred!" polemics. Hate to break it to HN, but Visa and MasterCard aren't reading Hacker News, and they don't care about constitutional takes or appeals to values or consistency. Legal arguments won't do squat here. There is one way to reverse this and it's leverage and pressure, period. If you want to fix this, you actually have to organize and go after the payment processors, because it's not going to be solved by writing essays in the comments or waiting for Steam to suddenly develop a spine. That means collective action, campaigns, actual activism. Exactly the stuff that makes tech people itchy and nervous. It's the same reason tech unions never get traction. Everyone wants to be a cowboy and nobody wants to be part of a posse. If you're serious about reversing this kind of censorship, you'll have to do the one thing that feels worse: banding together, working as a group, and aiming your outrage at the folks actually making the calls. Or keep writing little op-ed comments and maintain the losing streak, because Visa and MasterCard will keep steamrolling as long as nobody pushes back. Sorry, but that's the game. Arguing that the rules aren't fair or trying to play out the same losing tactic isn't a winning strategy. Plan an actual demonstration. Visa and MasterCard conveniently have offices in SF and NYC. All it takes is working together.
  • beeflet 1y ago
    The libertarian solution has been to use cryptocurrency for payments. The problem is that only libertarians want to use cryptocurrency, and most people don't care.
  • johnnyanmac 1y ago
    >If you want to fix this, you actually have to organize and go after the payment processors, because it's not going to be solved by writing essays in the comments or waiting for Steam to suddenly develop a spine. Okay. If you have any wisdom or ideas, I'd love to hear them. But as is, this comment is about as effective as mine on fighting Visa/Mastercard. "Just come together and yell at Steam!" I'm not opposed to activism, I'm ignorant of it. The big issue of the internet is that we are all scattered very wide and that makes it harder to collect ourselvves under one goal. And as of now, I'm a laid off tech worker (who doesn't live in SF) who has no real capital to contribute to such a cause. I feel powerless.
• uncircle 1y ago
  I know people here love to hate it, and it's a very very controversial topic, but this here, is a good use case for Bitcoin [1] Now that we have Lightning and hyperfast micropayments, can we have a good plug-and-play payment processor that uses it? The few services that allow Bitcoin payments still require an on-chain transaction, which is very user-unfriendly. In any case, despite what the haters say, this is the value proposition of cryptos. If it's not the government deciding what you can purchase or not, it's the payment processor cartel. 1: Other cryptos are just piggybacking on the popularity of the main one so I don't care about them.
  • fmbb 1y ago
    Bitcoin existing is not going to make Itch.io not want to accept payments via Visa. Porn is a tiny market. It’s not worth it losing the payment processors everyone is on to serve porn game buyers.
    • uncircle 1y ago
      > Porn is a tiny market. I'm not sure I agree. In the context of gaming, perhaps, but most of the Internet traffic is basically pornography.
      • fmbb 1y ago
        When I say market here I mean something people pay for, where producers can convince people to spend money. I’m quite sure there is not a lot of people paying for porn. The money people are making surely comes from ads and data hoarding.
    • beeflet 1y ago
      >Porn is a tiny market. It’s not worth it losing the payment processors everyone is on to serve porn game buyers. I agree with this point but I don't agree with the premise. I don't really care about the censorship of porn, but it is a slippery slope to censorship in general. If you give them an inch they will take a mile. I think there is sometimes a business justification of putting your foot in the ground, even if the short term consequences are harsh.
• dv_dt 1y ago
  Its too bad that the old school anti-trust provisions against restraint of trade are no longer of interest to enforcers. This isn't a case where visa/mc are against a specific game/publisher transactions is where they are saying we will stop processing payments for your entire platform because of a few games we object to. And its worse because the pmt processors aren't really specific about their objections in public at least.
• can16358p 1y ago
  What is wrong with these people who try to block certain content? Don't like porn? Don't buy it. Simple as that. No one, including governments or payment processors, should be in the position to decide whether a platform can sell something or not. I wish there was a payment processor who was brave enough to say a big fucking NO to censorship.
  • bryceacc 1y ago
    If you think (insert thing here) is genuinely evil, you might be inclined to rid the world of it. It may even make you seem like a better person (to god, to others in the same camp) because you are "cleansing" or "healing" the world through those efforts. It's self righteous
  • RankingMember 1y ago
    The Puritanical origins of the US reverberate to this day. While coming for "freedom of religion" sounds like a noble origin story, the context was that they wanted the freedom to practice a much stricter, restrictive form of religion than that allowed by the Church of England.
    • deleted 1y ago
      [deleted]
    • dzonga 1y ago
      are you saying the puritans were the taliban equivalent of christianity. & want to bring back laws that sex would only be used to 'recreate' not recreation.
      • kingkawn 1y ago
        Yes that’s exactly what they were and are today
        • varelse 1y ago
          [dead]
• the_af 1y ago
  In discussions about this topic, in almost every place I see them, lots of people (against this censorship) are going "I don't play this kind of games" or "I don't personally care about tentacle fetish" (or whatever). I don't get this. Let's say it openly: what's the problem with sex and nudity in games? Why is it so unacceptable -- that even people against the censorship must loudly proclaim it's not "their thing" -- but violence, guns, war, etc are not? Or not enough to pull from the stores, anyway? What I don't care about are the finer points of whether this technically counts as "censorship", because in pratice it is. There SHOULD be a place to buy games which depict nudity and sex. The quality of those games is not and should not be the focus of conversation (e.g. "they are AI slop" or "badly made", etc), because that's NOT what bothers the people doing the censorship -- they'd also be against the best, AAA made, high quality games with sex and nudity. Again, I ask: what is wrong with sex and nudity in games, that makes it worse than gore, violence and war? Why cannot whatever age-restriction measures taken for the purchase of violent games be also applied to sex games? Finally: we all know they are not going to stop at this, right?
  • akomtu 1y ago
    That's because people recognise that their self-control with regard to violence is solid, they know where the line is and won't have an urge to cross it, but with sex the story is different. Making this type of content mainstream will start a wildfire in our society. I believe this is the main reason why all religions are strict about sex, while at the same time very lax about violence (holy wars, the image of warrior, etc.)
    • bloqs 1y ago
      after how many decades of freely available pornography will you accept this is just not based in reality?
    • justanotherjoe 1y ago
      Prostitution was legal and regulated by the catholic church as necessary and understandable evil for centuries, until 15th century. Even Thomas Aquinas (huge stickler) agreed. And why wouldn't it be? It was what common sense would tell you. Learned christians would understand sexual sins are far from the worst ones. Also additional context, before the 12th century priests were allowed to marry and have children. It was taken away, to consolidate the church's property.
• slowhadoken 1y ago
  Porn games on Steam and itch are tacky af but they don’t push them on me and I sort of just ignore them. That being said they should probably sell them on different website.
  • nosignono 1y ago
    > That being said they should probably sell them on different website. Why? (Genuinely) Why are filters not sufficient? If I enjoy adult games and non-adult games, why should I have to manage two storefronts?
    • rustystump 1y ago
      Because filters do not work well at all and because these platforms want to make parents feel like it is ok for kids to be on them. Imagine if youtube had an “onlyfans” creator filter. That would never work. The reality is you are not the only customer or market. While you may find it to work well enough for you, myself along with many others do not.
      • nosignono 1y ago
        They absolutely work. I'm a parent, my kid plays games. I have yet to have any concerning close calls with NSFW content. People who make adult games (by and large) don't want kids to play their games. If the platform doesn't want kids to see them, and the creators don't want kids to see them, it's pretty easy for kids to not see them. If creators, platforms, and users all say, I would prefer to not see the content, it's pretty easy to make that happen.
  • johnnyanmac 1y ago
    Itch has been "that different website" for pretty much all its existence. If itch isn't safe, I don't know who is. Epic doesn't really allow any of that, and GOG is still pretty picky on any submission. DLSite is another good site but that was hit last year by this.
• crinkly 1y ago
  The very idea of a store front for software needs to die. It’s a single strangle point that serves only to concentrate power and create a legal or regulatory target. There should be no platform to “abuse”. There should be no control point.
  • bongodongobob 1y ago
    Everyone is free to build their own website to market and distribute their games.
  • qualeed 1y ago
    I'm curious, what do you imagine as the better alternative? I guess every publisher could just sell direct to customers on their own website, but that wouldn't address this issue at all (it would make it even easier for payment processors to abuse their duopoly), while also severely damaging the discoverability of games. And, considering that companies can already do this if they want but still choose to sell via a platform, I'm guessing there are several benefits beyond discoverability that I'm not thinking of.
    • crinkly 1y ago
      Well we have a couple of problems on the table at the moment. Stop Killing Games is a good exemplar of one so I won't go there. But the other is "what happens if Steam goes evil?". Remember Google's old motto? The only solution is you download stuff and it remains runnable and usable without any connection or authorisation to any service. The distribution of it can remain wherever and you can go via a side channel if you want. But being tied to a platform is utterly wrong. If the payment processor shuts your revenue down you can move elsewhere. With Stream as the distributor, you can't. It's a single point of failure.
      • qualeed 1y ago
        >The only solution is you download stuff and it remains runnable and usable without any connection or authorisation to any service. I agree, but that could still be done even when using a centralized distribution platform. I would say those are two separate issues. I think (not positive) that's the whole premise of GOG, isn't it? >If the payment processor shuts your revenue down you can move elsewhere. Not really, though. If the payment processor stops doing business with your company, your shit out of luck. Instead of pressuring steam or whoever, they just pressure you directly. The single (well, double) point of failure always chains up to the payment processors.
• djoldman 1y ago
  The decision to provide or not some services or products should be free from considering downstream use. It would be ridiculous to deny a water supply hookup or electrical mains to a church because the water or electrical companies are opposed to those beliefs. Analogously, legislation should be passed to prohibit considering downstream use for all financial transactions. If the government wants to go after criminals, it can do it by itself.
• braebo 1y ago
  The Trump admin wants to ban porn outright so this is just an appetizer.
• csours 1y ago
  The problem with slippery slopes is that the world is made of them. You can't leave the slippery slope, at BEST you can choose which slope you're sliding down. Another way to think of this is 'long tail risk'. Some subset of people out there will develop real life problems from: porn, sex work, alcohol, weed, drugs, gambling, other 'moral' issues. It is difficult to meaningfully address both the median user and the problematic user. See also decrim.
  • armchairhacker 1y ago
    IMO the difference is whether the “slope” is emotional or physical. Exhibit A - emotional: the government has outlawed violent crime and wants to outlaw intimidation. Argument “once they outlaw intimidation, next they’ll outlaw regular insults, next they’ll outlaw criticism”. This is a bad slippery slope argument because (I’m assuming) intimidation should be outlawed. Insults and criticism should not, but are not. If the government votes in evil-gov or you encounter evil-cop, it’s as easy for them to harass you for insults and criticism, as it would be had intimidation never been outlawed. Exhibit B - physical: the government wants to give every citizen a brain implant that can be remotely activated to stun them. This would significantly prevent crime. However, it would also be a terrible idea, because now if you get evil-gov or evil-cop, it’s significantly easier for them to remotely stun you for non-crime. The key is that in Exhibit A, evil-gov and evil-cop face equal resistance for punishing insults and criticism regardless of whether intimidation is outlawed, because either way, people understand that intimidation should be outlawed and insults and criticism should not. More generally, moving the Overton Window to contain a “good” thing doesn’t make it contain a “bad” thing, at least not enough so that the “good” thing isn’t worth it. But in Exhibit B, evil-gov and evil-cop face ineffective resistance for stunning people for insults and criticism, because people allowed good-gov and good-cop to give them stun implants for punishing crime; whereas if evil-gov or evil-cop stepped up and said “alright, we’re going to give everyone stun implants to punish insults and criticism”, they would face effective resistance. —- Put into perspective: Visa and Mastercard using their Monopoly to effectively prevent payment for depictions of incest and rape, assuming you think that is OK, is Exhibit A. However, Visa and Mastercard having a monopoly in the first place is Exhibit B. My argument is “we should break the Visa and Mastercard monopoly (or popularize crypto) to prevent them from restricting LGBTQ and firearms etc. in the future” (this argument still applies if they’re restricting some of that now). A counter-argument is “this will allow incest depictions, hate speech, and moreover actual drug and sex trafficking*, etc.” and my counter is “those things are bad, but are they bad enough to leave us vulnerable to power shifts restricting good content in the future?” I support free speech with a similar argument**. It’s an argument that relies on the uncertain future, but nonetheless the change here clearly and significantly decreases the probability of a bad future, because bad-gov or bad-cop must acquire power then revert the monopoly breakup; whereas the emotional example can’t even rely on the future, because if bad-gov or bad-cop acquire enough power to cause the bad thing, they would’ve just as likely acquired enough power had we not avoided causing the good thing. * Also note these things are already exchanged with real money, and breaking up the Visa/Mastercard monopoly won’t make them legal nor stop law enforcement from tracking and prosecuting them. The more general argument is that it’s better for society to make it hard for law enforcement to prosecute crime then give them the resources to do so, but also make it hard for them to prosecute non-crime; then make it easy for law-enforcement to prosecute crime so they need less resources, but also make it easy for them to prosecute non-crime. The justification is that we spend extra resources and let some crimes avoid prosecution, in exchange for decreased risk of non-crime prosecution now and in the future. ** and that speech is mild enough, sans confidential information etc., that it shouldn't be blocked simply to content whoever says it. But even confidential information doesn't warrant e.g. a universal backdoor and filter that could be stolen and exploited by a bad actor.
• ajdude 1y ago
  I recently got a notification from Flickr: You must now have the paid account (around $8 per month) to view 18+ content. I wonder if it's related.
• nosignono 1y ago
  This is absolutely a wedge to censor LGBTQ+ content. If you can separately argue that adult content should be blocked and LGBTQ+ themes are for adults, then you can block queer content online en masse. Visa and Mastercard have too much power, and are too willing to capitulate.
  • tempaccountabcd 1y ago
    [dead]
  • Tadpole9181 1y ago
    The group responsible also want to ban Detroit: Become Human, for context. That game advocates staunchly for civil rights and the autonomy of women, children, and other minorities. The Holocaust allegory is so on the nose you can't even call it veiled. It says domestic abuse is unforgivably, undeniably wrong. They don't even care about marginalized groups or even women themselves. Any piece of content that gives them the heeby jeebies, any media that has conflict: banned. Doesn't matter if it even supports their purported agenda.
    • adamrezich 1y ago
      This is why it is so tiring to see everyone reduce what is happening here to “they're trying to ban [specific thing I care about]!” rather than take the objective facts of the situation in total.
  • gxt 1y ago
    [flagged]
  • rustystump 1y ago
    [flagged]
    • nulld3v 1y ago
      LGBTQ+ treats incest no differently than how everyone else treats it. It's still generally taboo, and since it's not a sexual minority suffering from unjust persecution/discrimination, it is not offered any special protections.
• scyclow 1y ago
  There are a lot of people mentioning crypto as a possible solution to this, and a lot of people responding that crypto is a ponzi scheme, and they're not interested. But congress recently passed stablecoin legislation that could possibly fix this problem. Recipients would have a straightforward way of receiving money, and they wouldn't need to gamble on the price of bitcoin. Most people would probably still use a third part payment processor to handle the rough edges of managing money on the blockchain. But if any of them try to pull something like this it would be incredibly easy spin up a new processor and migrate accounts.
  • nurumaik 1y ago
    All stablecoins (at least popular ones) has the same underlying problem -- it's regulated and controlling entity can freeze any funds because it wants so
    • scyclow 1y ago
      Yeah, but so can PayPal and Visa and Mastercard. The issue here is that payments is essentially a duopoly. Itch doesn't have any alternatives because they're locked into traditional payment rails. Stablecoins at least let someone else decide "Hey, you know what, I'm going to create a coin that can be used as payment for porn games." And executing on that is fairly straightforward.
• nosignono 1y ago
  Weirdly, Amazon sells TONS of porn and NSFW content, and yet doesn't lose their Visa/Mastercard processing. Game of Thrones, both the books and the show, contain content much, much more explicit than many of these games. Yet Itch and Steam have to pull stuff or their very existence is threatened.
  • Beijinger 1y ago
    Isn't this American culture? You can watch soft porn as long as you can claim it is not porn? The Spartacus Series comes to mind. Gore and Porn. But sure, it is "history"
    • nosignono 1y ago
      There's plenty of hard core material on Amazon as well, fwiw.
    • williamscales 1y ago
      A lot of the moralizing pressure groups are also against sexual content on TV (at least historically they have been). One of the slippery slopes here would be that initially they go after smaller players and then work their way up. Would they ultimately go after Amazon or Warner Bros? It’s not totally clear to me that they wouldn’t.
      • mango7283 1y ago
        I said this on the other thread, it's obvious they don't yet have the clout to go after big titles like GoT or GTA yet, and it would be a losing strategy for them to do so. Hence why they are going after battles they can win first.
        • BlueTemplar 1y ago
          They already suceeded in getting GTA5 banned in a bunch of stores.
• derbOac 1y ago
  Why isn't there another counter group putting pressure on them to not pull this kind of thing?
  • burnt-resistor 1y ago
    The anti-capitalist left is disorganized and under-funded a priori.
    • warkdarrior 1y ago
      Part of the left sees porn as abuse, so at a minimum they do not care about porn or may even support banning porn.
  • mywittyname 1y ago
    Because it's slightly/majority embarrassing. The groups backing this ban will find the worst of the worst thing, and paint you as a massive supporter. And their militant zealots will endanger your life if you become significant enough. It takes a certain kind of person to stand up for pornography. And most are not that kind of person.
    • teddyh 1y ago
      “The trouble with fighting for human freedom is that one spends most of one’s time defending scoundrels. For it is against scoundrels that oppressive laws are first aimed, and oppression must be stopped at the beginning if it is to be stopped at all.” — Commonly attributed to H. L. Mencken (1880-1956)
    • rustystump 1y ago
      You can defend porn while not defending incest. Keep all the porn that is great. But there has to be a line somewhere and even the most accepting countries have a line. Often the groups defending porn are defending the most egregious stuff which makes it hard for people to support.
• tryauuum 1y ago
  hello from Russia, which was disconnected from the rest of the world by our overloads Visa and Mastercard There's a whole buisness model of russians paying to a company in Kazahstan so that they buy a steam game and gift it to a russian user
  • codedokode 1y ago
    In Russia many of those games would be illegal: LGBT is illegal, propaganda against having children is illegal, etc.
• danielvaughn 1y ago
  imo nothing wrong with a platform deciding what content it wants to host. But there’s also nothing wrong with allowing this type of content. Who wants to help me build an uncensored game distribution platform? We could call it Steamy.
  • SirYandi 1y ago
    Yes, but it's not the platform really making the decision in this case. It's their payment processor
  • flumpcakes 1y ago
    Incest rape simulators, zoophilia, lolicon? I think this stuff has no place on 'normal' store fronts like Steam and Itch. It should be on an 18+ only store front at the very least.
    • mitthrowaway2 1y ago
      The movie rental stores, back when they existed, used to have a room behind a curtain that adults could access.
      • flumpcakes 1y ago
        And they wouldn't be selling zoophilia/lolicon/incest pornography.
  • _Algernon_ 1y ago
    The mistake is thinking about payment processors as a "platform". They're not. They're critical infrastructure operating in an environment with low competition, and them denying service — beyond what is illegal within a certain jurisdiction — is more a kin to your electricity company denying service because they don't like that you use their electricity to power a device to watch porn. I think everyone would agree that to be crazy.
• deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
• bloqs 1y ago
  where are mid-00s Anonymous when you need them
• SilverElfin 1y ago
  Regulate Visa and MasterCard and the rest. As utility services, they should not have the ability to ban or deny service to any payment that is not clearly illegal. Or we should create a public alternative with private transactions.
  • xlii 1y ago
    There is no "the rest". All the payment processors or aggregators ultimately talk to Visa or MasterCard. Even if there are alternative payment methods that include direct transfer etc. they still might get kicked off if they don't follow their rules.
  • danschuller 1y ago
    It feels they should be a neutral payment system. They're implementing global policy otherwise due the monopoly they have, that's something that should handled at government/state level.
  • citrin_ru 1y ago
    I'm afraid regulators are happy with the current situation when they can make a phone call and Visa/MC will block whatever people in government don't like (e. g. porn), in exchange state allows Visa/MC to rake up fees.
  • mptest 1y ago
    >A public alternative with private transactions Anyone heard of Monero? Kind of their whole purpose... I know, I know, crypto bad, but when censorship comes for [insert your thing/country here], it kind of becomes obvious why people talked about crypto before btc was six digits. Anyone who knows how tech works and also any history about how authoritarian states work should probably see why crypto got so big in the first place, long before [insert scam that makes otherwise sensible people disregard an entire class of technology here].
    • mortos 1y ago
      Yes I have and I've used it, a website required that rather than BTC and attempting to use tumblers. So far as I know it's private. Transaction fees were low. I've tried a couple times looking up address/wallet history and of course nothing comes up and every time I have that "oh yeah" moment.
• true_religion 1y ago
  Although it's been tried before, we should all follow this bill, the Interstate Obscenity Definition Act which will criminalize lewd sexual material. In the current atmosphere, it might just pass. https://www.congress.gov/bill/119th-congress/senate-bill/1671/all-actions https://www.congress.gov/bill/119th-congress/senate-bill/167...
• pyuser583 1y ago
  I read from a fairly reputable source that money laundering is a huge problem in online sex industry. Which makes sense - you have buyers and sellers who insist on anonymity, services that leave no trace once rendered, buyers and sellers lying to family and friends about what they're doing, etc. There's often no "normal" amount of consumption, for example, some sellers receive million dollar tips. Money laundering is a massive problem, and it enables some really terrible things. I suspect the fact that American banks are so anti-porn comes from the fact that the American financial sector has such strong anti-money laundering regs (as opposed to, say, the American real estate sector, or the UK financial sector). One of the reasons OF is doing well is because they insist on following know your customer laws. Not many porn platforms could function that way.
  • gs17 1y ago
    If it was about potential for money laundering, they'd have gone after the Steam item marketplace way before random adult games. Valve has had to take action against it in the past: https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/valve-block-counter-strike-loot-key-reselling-to-fight-money-laundering https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/valve-block-counter-strike-... , but AFAIK it's hard to actually solve.
    • pyuser583 1y ago
      Not so much the potential for money laundering, as actual money laundering. Is there actual money laundering going on in Steam's item marketplace?
      • gs17 1y ago
        Yes, at least back in 2019, from the link: > However, worldwide fraud networks have recently shifted to using CS:GO keys to liquidate their gains. At this point, nearly all key purchases that end up being traded or sold on the marketplace are believed to be fraud-sourced. As a result we have decided that newly purchased keys will not be tradeable or marketable. Many users still suspect it happens, although it's hard to prove.
  • 1y ago
• flumpcakes 1y ago
  They are targeting incest/rape games. I wouldn't call that 'LGBTQ' like some people seem to imply. If Itch and Steam don't want to police their store fronts _before_ the law gets involved, then I am not surprised that other businesses such as payment providers will choose not to work with them. Visa and MasterCard are in the business of making money, they're not doing this for fun.
  • shevis 1y ago
    The problem is that they are opting to ban all games labeled “NSFW”, not just rape/incest games.
    • flumpcakes 1y ago
      Itch is only doing this in the short term as they don't have enough time to go through all of the NSFW games on their platform.
      • devnullbrain 1y ago
        And 4chan is only introducing the Captcha until the spam stops
        • guy_5676 1y ago
          Porn is a massive cash cow for itch, they are very incentivised to get the NSFW stuff up again asap
  • gs17 1y ago
    > _before_ the law gets involved There's no law (as of now). If there was a law, Valve would happily de-list these things. For example, a recent custom map for Mount and Blade that was banned in South Korea: https://automaton-media.com/en/news/valve-cooperates-in-banning-steam-mod-for-depicting-historical-revisionism/ https://automaton-media.com/en/news/valve-cooperates-in-bann...
    • 1y ago
• rustystump 1y ago
  I have always found it odd that whenever pornography comes up the degree to which people defend it in all forms. It is uncomfortably telling but also completely misses why this is happening. Itch.io is heavily saturated with anime porn games along with steam to the point I find both difficult to navigate even with nsfw filters turned on. Turning those filters off and it is pretty egregious the volume of it all let alone subject matter. I dont care about porn but the platforms have done a piss poor job for the majority of people who are not looking for porn games but find games like cyberpunk totally acceptable. How can i see cyberpunk but not hentai? This is happening because it was too easy for someone to pull up the home page on said platforms and point to several incest porn games. Using payment processors is not a solution i favor but people cannot find that experience acceptable. On a personal note, i dont want to live in a society that deems it acceptable to have a “no incest” filter for games. That is line for me and not for religion but because I find incest disgusting.
  • SXX 1y ago
    > How can i see cyberpunk but not hentai? There are filter by tags too. Works pretty well to filter out like all anime or hentai games.
    • rustystump 1y ago
      I like my game platforms how I like my streaming platforms. One for explicitly porn, and another for explicitly not porn. GoT on netflix while spicy is not porn. The issue is mixing porn with not porn. I shouldnt have to go click a bunch of special porn tags to not see that shit on the home page. I like anime games but cant seem to keep them without the hentai. Poor experience. The fact the default is porn games in your home page IS the issue. It gives all this ammunition for xyz group to do whatever. The politics of payment processors being the bad guys is nonsense. They have to bow down to too many governments to play ball so will always take the politically expedient option. Almost all bitcoin validators bowed down to us sanctions banning wallet addresses for example. That cat has been out of the bag for years.
      • 1y ago
• codedokode 1y ago
  How do porn sites accept money then? Steam should just make a separate company for adult games and use the same payment methods as porn sites. Also this reminds me of Apple that for example demanded Telegram to block adult channels (including non-porn channels where authors blog about their sex life) from AppStore's Telegram version. Also if cryptocurrency were more popular and widespread, then banks would have less leverage to do this.
• computerthings 1y ago
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• computerthings 1y ago
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• amelius 1y ago
  Don't we have something like net neutrality but for money transfers? And besides, why do payment processors even know/care what their customers use their money for as long as it's legal? If you want to ban porn, fine, but do it through the law, and don't let every company make their own laws. Especially if they are a quasi monopoly (have power).
  • deleted 1y ago
    [deleted]
• AlwaysRock 1y ago
  The slippery slope is the one the payment processors have been sliding down for a while. Steam and itch dont want to pull these games. They dont have a choice.
• deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
• Jzush 1y ago
  What I would like to know is why is it any business of VESA or any other payment processor, what I am buying with my own money. vESA has no business knowing what game I’m specifically buying. They just have to give money to Steam in my behalf and that’s it.
• jackdawipper 1y ago
  I see what you did there
• mixologist 1y ago
  This actually took longer than I thought. It is really weird that for all my adult content I have to go to a dedicated adult store, yet for games I can find them on Steam and gog where kids shop for games. You don’t get porn movies on Netflix or Disney stream. You don’t get adult toys in your local grocery store. Why do we sell porn on Steam? Why haven’t game stores just spin off separate store front for porn content? It is basically free, since they already have the infrasructure. While being removed from general stores, porn has become very visible on big gaming platforms which majority of customers don’t associate with porn. Backlash is inevitable. I think we can expect a bigger push against porn in general as pendulum swings back on the other side.
  • garciansmith 1y ago
    Bookstores sell kids books and adult material just fine. The adult stuff might be behind the counter or in a certain area, same as stores like Steam where you have to actively seek it out.
    • lupusreal 1y ago
      Video rental stores, when those were still a thing, were the same way. They'd have a room in the back with a curtain to section it off.
      • AraceliHarker 1y ago
        First, it's highly concerning that some companies have gained immense power through monopolization, a point also made by former FTC Chair Lina Khan. Separately, in physical stores, there's an incentive to comply with laws because police would intervene if pornography were sold alongside regular goods. However, online, there's hardly any punishment for distributing pornography. This has led to a proliferation of people trying to sell porn on mainstream platforms to maximize profits and gain attention. Online, pornography is consumed far too casually. While it doesn't need to be completely eliminated, I believe there needs to be a clearer separation. Also, it seems many of those currently criticizing Visa/Mastercard are Trump supporters, and I'm curious about the FTC's stance on mergers and acquisitions between large corporations.
• j_timberlake 1y ago
  All the real hentai trash is on DLsite anyway. These people probably have no idea, and even if they did, they're powerless to change Japan. They'd definitely give up after encountering Kanji.
  • VerdisQuo5678 1y ago
    ...sweet summer child visa is hitting DLSite hard https://cs.dlsite.com/hc/en-us/articles/1500002888202-What-payment-methods-do-you-accept https://cs.dlsite.com/hc/en-us/articles/1500002888202-What-p... actually it seems all the major western credit card players have already blocked them. i remember seeing pay with crypto so i guess thats what you need to use in the west
    • npteljes 1y ago
      Another framing of this: Mastercard / Visa, and by extension whomever had them to do the crackdown, are now powerless to change DLSite. Googling for news, it seems like the story between DLSite and M/V is a push and pull. Many articles turn up that say they have an agreement, then a disagreement, then an agreement again, then a suspension, then they bring it back again etc. My point here is that their relationship with M/V seems to have failed to actually change them, so, the point "they're powerless to change Japan" stands.
      • GoblinSlayer 1y ago
        It's not just dlsite, Visa is on killing spree in Japan https://automaton-media.com/en/news/access-to-adult-pc-games-shut-down-on-major-japanese-online-retailer-amidst-discussions-with-payment-processors/ https://automaton-media.com/en/news/access-to-adult-pc-games... - see links to other cases As for objectification of women: https://automaton-media.com/en/news/credit-card-restrictions-are-spreading-even-to-japanese-platforms-for-womens-adult-content-including-audio-dramas-and-bl-doujinshi/ https://automaton-media.com/en/news/credit-card-restrictions...
        • npteljes 1y ago
• mkzetta 1y ago
  I'm assuming this is driven by stakeholders in the legacy porn business prompted to anticompetitive action by generative AI tools seriously threatening their monopoly on sexual content for the first time. There has always been a huge barrier to entry into porn for non-seedy, non-abusive, and mentally stable people. Art-based content like games are both much easier to create without a human trafficking network and are usually far more wholesome than the prevalent legacy porn tropes, which often center around incest, coercion, chauvinistic infidelity or miscegenation, and other disgusting themes. I am hoping there are people archiving this content for future sociological study.
• fl1pper 1y ago
  For your kids, you can set up a child account where you can block content they can see, adult content included. Actually, it works for basic accounts as well, you can filter out adult content and don't have this kind of problem :)
• TeeMassive 1y ago
  The fact that we can let a duopoly of payment processors dictate the morals of our societies based on the morals of a few militant cluster B "concerned moms" is very very scary.
• darqis 1y ago
  what's so bad about human sexuality that it always needs to be censored?
• aussieguy1234 1y ago
  For those who think this is about just banning adult content, think again. What's actually happening is any content disliked by certain billionaires is being flagged by payment providers under their influence. Some examples, like this one are for porn but the same approach could be used for anything even remotely controversial. Anyway, maybe Witcher 3 could be next. Great game, but it happens to have some sex scenes, so....
• hnpolicestate 1y ago
  The solution to those who would like to play porn games is not relying on developers to make them or Steam to host them but using an LLM to build them for you, and your SSD to host them.
• cherioo 1y ago
  On July 29 2022, Judge Cormac Carney of the U.S. District Court for the Central District of California held that Brown Rudnick had adequately alleged facts in the Fleites v. MindGeek case that Visa engaged in a criminal conspiracy with MindGeek to monetize child pornography. Judge Carney also granted the plaintiff discovery that will reveal the relationships between the hundreds of allegedly sham organizations and the secret owners behind this alleged criminal trafficking internet platform.
• deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
• snvzz 1y ago
  https://archive.is/enjt7 https://archive.is/enjt7
• jjaksic 1y ago
  This is somewhat tangential: people are debating a lot whether porn has negative effects, but has anyone thought about or studied positive effects? I personally think it's more likely for porn to have positive effects and that it's preferable to sexual deprivation. Horny and sexually deprived people tend to sometimes do awful things like sexual harassment or even rape, but if they have access to porn, they're much less likely to do those things.
  • password54321 1y ago
    You just described the problem. You want men to be pacified through their screen rather than engaging with real women. You aren't the only one who seems to think this way though, we have more things than ever to pacify men and even increase estrogen and decrease testosterone probably because some believe that men are inherently dangerous.
• stuaxo 1y ago
  This is one (of many) reasons why moving away from cash is bad. We shouldn't be privatising money.
• cgio 1y ago
  I find the overall discussion on this topic interesting, but it feels like we could emphasise a bit more how this is related with the transition of discourse from freedom to righteousness. In this context, arguing the fairness of being free is just an admission that freedom is now a secondary line of argumentation. As an outsider to the US, it also seems a bit ironic to my uninformed eyes that a heavily liberal part of the society effectively and efficiently co opted the fairness, equality, morality vector to drive an agenda of less liberalism in the interest of winning against non liberal movements.
• linuxhansl 1y ago
  Why do you people always presume they know what is best for other people? Don't like porn? Cool, don't buy it or avert your eyes! As if this would stop anybody from getting access to pornographic content.
  • npteljes 1y ago
    Some people actually care for the whole, or for the wholesomeness of a specific subset. This includes (on the face) most people who participate in public life. Which is a lot of people! >Don't like porn? Cool, don't buy it or avert your eyes! Why do you then tell others how to live their lives? Is really leaving everyone to their own devices the good idea? >As if this would stop anybody from getting access to pornographic content. There is a good difference between something being generally available to access (and getting promoted even), and being technically available to some. There is material worthy of being suppressed, hate speech and calls for violence being some of them. Did this censorship stop anybody to access Mein Kampf or other such vile stuff? Not really, but it helps a lot that these are not in the front and center. EDIT: I invite downvoters to voice their point
    • simoncion 1y ago
      I'm not a downvoter, but I have a few minutes to kill, so sure, I'll bite. > Why do you then tell others how to live their lives? In all reasonably-free societies, the default stance is "Mind your damn business, and everyone else will mind theirs.". Deviations from that default veer into "telling other people how to live their lives" territory. Sometimes it's right and proper to actively interfere in the lives of others. It is occasionally even extremely important to do this. But -the majority of the time- the folks doing this are nothing more than busybodies sticking their noses in other people's business. You might think that US-based businesses should not be permitted to accept payments tendered by the two major credit and debit card processors for the sale of more-extreme pornographic content. I think it's none of those processors' business what legal goods consenting adults purchase using their systems. Given Visa and MasterCard's enormous size, I think it's absolutely essential that they not be permitted to refuse any legal purchase for any reason other than credible suspicion of fraud. You may feel differently. You're totally entitled to that opinion.
• eps 1y ago
  Here's the list of removed games. It's worth a look. https://bannedgames.netlify.app/ https://bannedgames.netlify.app/
• marcjensen 1y ago
  In many countries, the sale of alcohol is restricted because the majority agrees that it is harmful to society. The same should be done with pornographic content. However, we are only beginning to learn how to efficiently limit it. Things like this will happen, but it will improve over time. Overall, I see positive progress here.
  • animal531 1y ago
    That's to stop children from accessing it while this stops anyone from doing so. The two aren't equivalent.
    • marcjensen 1y ago
      I'm not sure I understand you. For example in Norway, alcohol is forbidden for everyone at specific times (https://www.thenorwegianstandard.com/article/alcohol-in-norway-legal-guidelines-and-purchase-options/ https://www.thenorwegianstandard.com/article/alcohol-in-norw...). Which "stops anyone from doing so".
• _1tem 1y ago
  I don’t understand people who defend porn access. Porn is an addictive behavior with measurable effects on the brain similar to hard drugs. We regulate gambling, paid access to porn is worse. Furthermore it is fraught with misogyny and exploitation and objectification of women. Would you defend ISIS games on Steam promoting Taliban-style patriarchy? Porn is worse.
  • jMyles 1y ago
    > Porn is an addictive behavior with measurable effects on the brain similar to hard drugs. This comparison alone soundly defeats your argument. Prohibition of hard drugs has been a spectacular failure, directly resulting in increased rates of death, disease, and crime, and elevating drug cartels to enormous international influence. The danger of porn as an addictive substance - which is very real as you point out - is a great argument against its prohibition.
• lousken 1y ago
  EU introduced their own solution, but I still don't see it
• zanfr 1y ago
  payment processors shouldn't even be a thing; it should between the store and the customer. period.
  • 6c696e7578 1y ago
    I don't particularly like bitcoin, but isn't that one route for them?
• heisenbit 1y ago
  Based on https://blog.osum.com/steam-market-share/ https://blog.osum.com/steam-market-share/ (no idea how accurate) Steam holds 75% market share. One could make an argument that it may be a gatekeeper to the market and should be more closely regulated for commercial and free speech reasons.
• mlboss 1y ago
  We need cash payment as a service
• dyauspitr 1y ago
  With graphics being so realistic now I’ve always wanted a “AAA” porn game. Why don’t we have one yet? It can’t be lack of demand. Hell build a light RPG around it and it will sell in the millions.
• Razengan 1y ago
  So, wait, Apple is bad, is abusing a monopoly etc., if Apple disallows certain things on their platform But Visa & Mastercard can get away with it for decades with abandon?? Dictating EVERYTHING in EVERY economy and on EVERY store?!
• wormius 1y ago
  Just closed my dev acct (only had an old 2015 puzzle game I made, 2 sales, no huge deal personally), but decided to put my 4.57 where my mouth is (no payout, waaaaaaah, cuz 5 dollar minimum). And told them exactly why I am doing so. Money talks, and it's one of the few ways I have to show my opposition. I hope others will do the same. It's sad, because itch is kinda one of the last few places for "indie" as a thing with the vibe of indies, at least (I mean they aren't Steam or the other big publishers). I'm surprised Epic didn't buy them out yet just like they did with Bandcamp. Probably next on the block.
  • danbolt 1y ago
    I think you’re in your right to close your account, but itch has a public history[1] of generally being in agreement with you. Leafo talked about feeling a responsibility to host the unique and diverse content the platform holds. [2] This is further exemplified by deindexing/demonetizing adult content rather than swiftly deleting everything in a crass, cover-your-ass, manner. It strikes me that they had a gun held to their head by a mobster. If itch didn’t comply, they’d lose all their revenue, and we’d lose the website in its entirety, which is much more than just smut. Pushing back against the payment processors, rather than itch under duress, would have made money talk in the right direction. The difficulty in doing so is reflected in the discussion here. [1] https://x.com/itchio/status/1478123227394150400 https://x.com/itchio/status/1478123227394150400 [2] https://youtu.be/9v4ppSSpb0I https://youtu.be/9v4ppSSpb0I
• wormius 1y ago
  Also - like... I absolutely hate cryptocurrency, but if this is what it comes to, then make that a payment option, and leave up the "bad naughty legal stuff" for us consenting adults to decide (but I know, it won't be legal for long as these reactionaries keep pummeling away at free speech while using the rhetoric of 'Free Speech' to gain further control of communication systems).
• WhereIsTheTruth 1y ago
  They want to fix the online hack that allows people to create their own sub culture and become financially independent with it It is only just about controlling people, has nothing to do with porn Otherwise they'd go after Valve for empowering and facilitating the biggest legal (disguised) online gambling market to minors (counter strike case gambling, steam cards and the whole marketplace) Again, this is all about controlling individuals, they do not care about anything else, you can drink 1000L of Vodka a week, they won't care about your insignificant life They have an agenda (digital wallet/ID), they'll do what ever it takes to make it happen
• advael 1y ago
  It's crazy to me that people can simultaneously understand that censorship is bad and still think we can allow for exceptions for things like "obscenity/pornography" or "hate speech" Free expression means that objectionable things will be said, even published. There are certainly hairy exceptions, like doxxing, slander, or incitement to violence that can put people in immediate danger, but stuff like this clearly doesn't fall in that category, and giving finance the ability to censor in this way is not signficantly better than governments doing so
  • nachox999 1y ago
    censorship isn't bad
  • tacitusarc 1y ago
    What are the principles governing the exceptions you listed (slander, doxxing, incitement)?
    • ronsor 1y ago
      1. Direct, obvious harm beyond "my feelings were upset." 2. Actually, this isn't illegal in a lot of places. 3. Direct, obvious harm beyond "my feelings were upset."
      • sergiogjr 1y ago
        Should we ever consider broad societal harm, or just focus on individual harm? It's to me just short sighted to only consider the later.
      • Grustaf 1y ago
        Do you actually believe that the issue with porn is that it "upsets people's feelings"?
    • advael 1y ago
      Mostly the principle that direct, tangible, and irreparable harm is being done by the speech. I called these "hairy" exactly because they are less clear-cut than most cases. The line between satire or speculation and slander, for example, can be kind of notoriously hard to draw, many "doxxing" incidents mostly involve finding already-public information, and incitement to violence is pretty difficult to demonstrate in a satisfying way The reason I bring up these examples is that they are what I consider the edge cases of freedom of expression. There are genuinely difficult tradeoffs between values, but allowing stuff that bothers some people to be published is not one of them
• yownie 1y ago
  and yet people still refuse to understand the utility of bitcoin/lightning protocol in relation to situations like this (or cutting donations to Greenpeace or Wikileaks)
  • __loam 1y ago
    Crypto uses more power than Generative AI with fewer users. A much easier solution is to use the law to classify the payment processors as common carriers.
  • watwut 1y ago
    Bitcoin is not useful for buying steam games, steam ended up that particular experiment due to it ... not being useful.
  • bigbacaloa 1y ago
    [dead]
• ethin 1y ago
  I very strongly oppose this because Visa and MC are payment processors: their jobs are to (1) ensure money gets from points A to B and (2) protect consumers from fraud and other malicious practices (I know that's very vague here but...). This is neither of those things. This is them indirectly censoring individuals based on what they publish by placing pressure on the publisher to not publish those things. That is not power these processors/financial institutions should have. It is completely irrelevant what their opinion of what your paying for is. If it isn't illegal, they should have no power or right to deny it. It would be one thing if the platforms chose to do this themselves. That's the rights of the platforms (Steam and Itch); they are the ones publishing these games. It would be another if the law explicitly said that a payment processor could not send money to pornographic [whatever]. (That would be massively unconstitutional, but let's ignore that for the sake of this discussion.) Neither applies here. Then again, I also find it absurd that my bank can't force P2P payment processors like CashApp to return money that I sent to someone by mistake, or because I was scammed/manipulated into doing it. Their logic is "well, contact CashApp", and CashApp of course says "Oh but we can't do that". Which is utter nonsense, because of course they can, they just don't want to.
• linotype 1y ago
  When can we start banning christianity from different platforms? It's not an issue of separation of church and state as these are private companies. The blood on the hands of the church is well documented, not to mention the Catholic Church molesting so many children. Why can't we go after them as well?