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EU Parliamentary Research Service calls VPNs "a loophole that needs closing"

663 points by muse900 4mo ago

chii 4mo ago
How come tax loopholes aren't as scrutinized? Mandatory age verification online is a blight imho. It should be outlawed.
- stirkac 4mo ago
  How can you define a tax loophole then? Since there isn't a thing you can do called a "Tax loophole", but rather a collection of otherwise totally legitimate practices, just used as an optimization, they are impossible to define, and as such, be scrutinized. It's a neverending whack-a-mole...
- jraby3 4mo ago
  Why? Isn't your age verified when you renew your drivers license? Purchase something on Amazon? When I was a kid, child programming and commercials were heavily scrutinized. Now any kid can access porn, violence, and scams on the internet. That's a blight. Not age verification.
  - tmjwid 4mo ago
    As a kid, you never found a stack of porno magazines in the woods did you?
  - oneshtein 4mo ago
    > Now any kid can access porn, violence, and scams on the internet. Before Internet they used paper.
    - eloisant 4mo ago
      The ease of access, quantity and diversity of internet porn is in no common measure with magazines that existed in the 20th century.
    - bigstrat2003 4mo ago
      Before the Internet you had to work fairly hard to get a Playboy centerfold where the model just had her breasts out. Now you can effortlessly find endless depictions of anything, including the most depraved sex acts you can possibly imagine. The ease of access and breadth of content available to kids today makes it qualitatively different than when we were kids. That does not, of course, mean that age verification laws are the appropriate solution. You could even argue that it's not a problem that kids have access to all this stuff (though I don't think I would agree with that). But you can't just hand wave it away by saying "we looked at porn on paper when we were kids". The situations are not at all the same.
  - zeroonetwothree 4mo ago
    I don’t understand, did broadcast TV or cable do age verification? Surely kids could watch content that was for adults very easily.
    - xg15 4mo ago
      Broadcast TV had a very simple solution to this problem: Only air the not-for-kids stuff at times of the day when the kids are already asleep, i.e. late in the evening or at night. It was still the job of the parents to set the bed times etc, but at least this was something the parents could actually control. And for pay-per-view stations with actual heavily violent or pornographic content: Yes, they were absolutely age-gated, usually via a PIN.
      - chii 4mo ago
        and who sets that pin? It's the parents, not the cable company.
        xg15 4mo ago
        This is correct. I think the difference is that the PIN actually is an effective tool that parents can use to keep their kids from watching this stuff. It's also default-deny as the PIN is pre-set, and the parents would have to make a conscious efforts to allow viewing. Im contrast, the internet is default-permit: Everyone can access everything, unless the device is specifically set up to block it. Setting up such a block has the risk of causing massive drama with your kids, and they fill probably quickly find ways to circumvent it anyway. This is why I find the "it's the parent's responsibility" calls so hypocritical: The whole idea behind the internet is to make it as hard as possible to block things. But suddenly we expect the parents to do exactly that? How? (All that independent of the point that the current push for age verification really seems like a disguised push for control. But that doesn't mean there isn't a real problem. Both things can be true at the same time)
  - kaliqt 4mo ago
    That’s the job of parents. No exceptions. OP is right, it needs to be outlawed.
  - deleted 4mo ago
    [deleted]
  - pibaker 4mo ago
    And yet juvenile crime rate is down. Bullying is down. Teenage pregnancy is way down. Even underage smoking and drinking is down. Maybe porn and violence is making today's teenager behave better than those 30 years ago after all!
- vkou 4mo ago
  What makes you think they aren't? The Double-Irish-Dutch-Sandwich in particular was cracked down on.
  - spwa4 4mo ago
    To be replaced by the Irish tax department making direct deals that are essentially the same. But ONLY for specific companies (principle: big multinationals don't pay tax at all, local companies get big tax raises. Irish companies are dying, multinationals are moving to Ireland) https://taxsummaries.pwc.com/ireland/corporate/tax-credits-and-incentives https://taxsummaries.pwc.com/ireland/corporate/tax-credits-a... In case anyone wonders: this means the FANG companies don't pay tax in Ireland if they hire enough people in Ireland, which has famously high income tax. It is, in other words, effectively a massive tax increase on the employees while actually reducing total tax income in the EU compared to the "double dutch sandwich". Note that Ireland signed at least 2 international treaties that they weren't going to do this (OECD minimum tax treaty, EU tax treaty). Of course, there are no consequences to this. The response to is that EU is exploring company-tax-per-transaction which is so incredibly bad in the massive administrative burden it will generate. It's not final, but it will mean that for every transaction done companies will have to keep (PER transaction) pieces (plural) of evidence for what country they happened in. Every single transaction. https://joint-research-centre.ec.europa.eu/projects-and-activities/fiscal-policy-analysis/corporate-taxation_en https://joint-research-centre.ec.europa.eu/projects-and-acti...
    - nickff 4mo ago
      Lots of governments give tax exemptions to selected industries (film comes to mind) or even companies (Foxconn/TSMC); I don’t support this behavior, but I don’t see what makes Ireland special in this regard.
      - xg15 4mo ago
        Well, that was the original question of the thread: > How come tax loopholes aren't as scrutinized?
- reddalo 4mo ago
  I agree, age verification on the web should 100% banned. Parents should learn how to be parents; the government shouldn't force companies to do parenting instead.
  - eloisant 4mo ago
    Governement should force companies to give parental controls tools. Gaming companies like Nintendo and Steam do that, I can create a kid account with parental controls. Social media companies (e.g. Meta, Snap) are the first that should provide that but they don't.
  - otabdeveloper4 4mo ago
    So you're implying alcohol and cigarettes should be sold to children? (Not to mention all the other consent age laws.) That said, VPN is a national security issue, children are only a pretext.
    - hnlmorg 4mo ago
      Children have always found ways to access age restricted consumables. Whether that was porno mags, alcohol or cigarettes. They’d just get an older sibling, or stranger to buy it. Or they’d have a fake ID. Or they’d just steal it from a family member. But you know which kids did this the least? It was the ones where their parents / guardians took their responsibilities as a guardian properly.
      - palata 4mo ago
        > Children have always found ways to access age restricted consumables Doesn't mean that it's equivalent to giving them free access to those consumables. > But you know which kids did this the least? Source?
        hnlmorg 4mo ago
        > Doesn't mean that it's equivalent to giving them free access to those consumables. Why do people on HN always need to look at things as a Boolean state? It’s entirely reasonable to have some preventative measures but acknowledging that there are ways to circumvent them and accept that as a reasonable conclusion. Things don’t need to be “all or nothing” ;) > Source? I grew up pre-WWW. Literally lived and breathed the points I’m making. But don’t just take my word on this. Ask anyone of a certain age and they’ll tell you the same: they either tried cigarettes or knew lots of kids in school who smoked under the age of 16. They had access to alcohol under the age of 18. And pornographic content was easy to get hold of under the age of 18. The age at which they gained access and the frequency of the usage depended greatly on their upbringing.
- loeg 4mo ago
  A tax "loophole" is just a deliberate policy you happen to disagree with.
SilverElfin 4mo ago
Ugh. Here we go again. Europe’s politicians just cannot stop with wanting to control everyone and everything. It’s as if bureaucracy is the actual goal. Privacy and anonymity should be protected by law. Not violated by law.
- LaurensBER 4mo ago
  I listen to a bunch of (mostly left) podcasts where they sometimes invite members of the European parlement and while I can agree with some of their opinions its downright scary how they think about regulations. For everything that's wrong in society the answer seems to be more and more regulations. The negative effects (such as the lack of European AI companies) are then waved away (it's because Europe spends their money on American AI instead of investing in EU AI). It's honestly scary.
  - mclbdn 4mo ago
    Care to share some of these podcasts?
  - deleted 4mo ago
    [deleted]
- logicchains 4mo ago
  [dead]
- rufasterisco 4mo ago
  EU enshrined privacy in its charter of fundamental rights. GDPR was and still is a major protection. US, from its biggest companies to the whole of Silicon Valley culture has done the exact opposite. Within the EU, multiple attempts at pushing changes in opposition to this have been proposed, debated, voted on (and rejected), as democracies do. Not perfect, but when you come down to laws, EU bureaucrats gave EU citizens article 8, US gave them the CLOUD act.
  - rdm_blackhole 4mo ago
oneshtein 4mo ago
Yet another «copy protection». Legislation must call real experts before making any *technical* decisions.
applfanboysbgon 4mo ago
Ah yes, the most pressing issue of our times. Mandatory surveillance of every person's activities is a reasonable solution to the critical issue of teenagers watching porn, who totally won't be able to bypass this by... grabbing Dad's phone. Obviously, it's not about the children. It was never about the children. If I had my way every one of these people would be taken to a gulag, because they are evil, have evil intentions, and blatantly lie to further their evil goals. I am tired of the intolerant being tolerated, and by allowing this to fester we are headed for a much worse totalitarian dystopia.
- donmcronald 4mo ago
  All accounts and that are important to kids have are being tied to their real identity and they won’t be able to get a new one if they’re banned. The potential for social engineering is insane. All of these ID laws are going to make it more dangerous for kids online IMO. “Hi I’m a Roblox moderator. Your account was reported for X and you’ve been temp banned. Come to platform Y to appeal. Start by submitting all your personal info and a selfie.” And it’ll be completely normalized by big tech. Seriously. WTF are they thinking?
  - microtonal 4mo ago
    First, I should say that I am against online age identification. But if we are going to get age verification because the larger population wants it, I definitely prefer the EU's privacy-preserving age verification that uses zero knowledge proofs (yes, they have issues too) over private companies doing age verification, requiring uploading scans of your ID, filming your face, etc. For the reasons that you mention (people can easily be tricked into giving information to the wrong people), but also because I simply do not want my data to be in the hands of random private companies that will sell the data, give it to Palantir, etc. That makes this fight so annoying, we have to fight age identification, while at the same time also promoting privacy-preserving age verification for the case it happens anyway.
    - applfanboysbgon 4mo ago
donmcronald 4mo ago
I think all the identity verification schemes should start with the beneficial owners of companies. Governments have been lobbied to allow complete anonymity for the wealthy that own businesses doing questionable things while regular people are going to have to show id to buy food.
- patrickk 4mo ago
  Shell companies for the ruling class, ever decreasing anonymity for the peasants.
- nickff 4mo ago
  As someone who lives in a jurisdiction which does require such disclosure: it is a significant inconvenience for small businesses, and no benefit to the general public.
  - walrus01 4mo ago
    Do small businesses in your area have complicated ownership structures that it's significantly inconvenient to disclose the one family that owns, for an example small business , a plumbing repair company with 4 vans and 6 employees?
    - roenxi 4mo ago
      They might? If they don't and it is trivial to identify the beneficial owner, why is it necessary to create a requirement to disclose? The practical experience is that people are quite bad at this sort of requirement, that may well be a source of problems and that on aggregate making it harder to do business has a notable impact [0] on general prosperity. Don't needlessly put barriers in front of people who create wealth. It isn't a stretch to imagine that a small business owner literally doesn't have enough time in their life to maintain their own health and run their business. There are some pretty grim stories out there, I can tell one based on a friend of mine who was working ... I think 70 hour weeks. Sounded rough. It isn't actually crazy to say they may not have an hour free to figure out what form they need to fill out and where to file it, or that they'd be too sleep deprived to get it right. Assuming that this thing is the only thing they need to disclose and there aren't any other pieces of paperwork that need filing (which we all know there will be). Sure if they have to they'll probably figure it out in most cases, maybe it is trivial. But the businesses where a straw broke the camel's back don't exist any more to point at as evidence. It is hard to know. [0] https://www.grumpy-economist.com/p/the-cost-of-regulation https://www.grumpy-economist.com/p/the-cost-of-regulation
JV00 4mo ago
Perhaps these legislators are addicted to porn and don't want their children to do to themselves the same they have done. Would explain their obsession and relentlessness to get this done. It's just a pity they are destroying the internet while doing that. They should be attacking the companies making money from porn instead. And by the way porn can damage your mind even after 18 so age verification is not a real solution anyway.
- skeptic_ai 4mo ago
  Porn or social media or fake news destroy kids brain more? I can’t even tell
  - balamatom 4mo ago
    Parents destroy kids' brains the most.
- lifestyleguru 4mo ago
  I agree that age verification is old perverts addicted to porn simply projecting their problem onto others. Kids after a day of continuous swiping of tiktok and instagram want tattoos and bitcoin.
  - xg15 4mo ago
    Which is why the age restriction would apply to "normal" social media as well?
    - lifestyleguru 4mo ago
      Even better! Now teenager can legally buy bitcoin straight in the tattoo parlor one week after their 18th birthday.
- danaris 4mo ago
  Porn addiction has been shown not to be a real thing. People who believe they are addicted to porn view porn at approximately the same rate as other people: they just feel more guilty about it, due to being raised to believe that it is shameful. One source on the topic: https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/talking-apes/202207/the-trouble-with-porn-addiction https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/talking-apes/202207/...
9753268996433 4mo ago
[flagged]
qnpnpmqppnp 4mo ago
This title seems misleading. The EP paper appears to be highlighting the existence of a debate regarding VPN. Relevant quote: "Some argue that this is a loophole in the legislation that needs closing and call for age verification to be required for VPNs as well. In response, some VPN providers argue that they do not share information with third parties and state that their services are not intended for use by children in the first place. The Children's Commissioner for England has called for VPNs to be restricted to adult use only. While privacy advocates argue that imposing age-verification requirements on VPNs would pose significant risk to anonymity and date protection, child-safety campaigners claim that their widespread use by minors requires a regulatory response. Pornhub and other large pornography platforms have reportedly lost web traffic following the enforcement of age-verification rules in the UK, while VPN apps have reached the top of download rankings." Of course I'm not saying the EU won't regulate VPNs, but nowhere in this paper is "the EU" stating that VPNs need closing.
- karmakurtisaani 4mo ago
  This needs a new "law of headlines": whenever it's the EU saying something, it's never the EU that said that.
  - dinfinity 4mo ago
    Even the, it's incredibly vague at best, equivalent to "The USA said that", which only makes sense in a context where the relevant spokespeople are well-defined (such as a UN assembly or something), but who is the general spokesperson for the USA or the EU? Usually things like these are qualified like "the Department of Defense of the USA stated X".
- rufasterisco 4mo ago
  The title is also the exact title for that paper’s chapter. You are right at pointing out that the paper is overall presenting the subject in a balanced manner, unfortunately it seems a bad choice was made when it came to that specific sentence, that gives a venue for it to be fed in the outrage machine. https://www.europarl.europa.eu/RegData/etudes/ATAG/2026/782618/EPRS_ATA(2026)782618_EN.pdf https://www.europarl.europa.eu/RegData/etudes/ATAG/2026/7826...
rdm_blackhole 4mo ago
Here we go again with new restrictions on civil liberties. This is Chat Control all over again. The EU won't stop until it has access to all your data, all your messages, anything you read, save, send will be scrutinized by the the big great EU and it's little minions. Hey, at least we get the freedom of movement right?
- microtonal 4mo ago
  There is no such thing as the EU wants X. There are huge differences between what the European Commission, the European Council, and the majority of the European Parliament want. Most of the anti-privacy crap hasn't happened thanks to the EU. Particular countries and lobbying groups have been pushing this through the Commission and Council and most attempts have been rejected by the EP. If we didn't have the EU, some countries would have long introduced this nonsense (like the UK). But in the EU that does not make much sense, since there is a single market, so you have to enforce it EU-wide. The European Parliament + courts of justice/human rights are one of the last beacons of democracy/freedom worldwide that resist upcoming authoritarianism. We should support them and remind the Parliament over and over again that they should be continuing the good fight. --- By the way, nearly all your comments on HN are about politics and all trying to sow dissent on Western (and especially European) democracies.
  - dryarzeg 4mo ago
    > By the way, nearly all your comments on HN are about politics and all trying to sow dissent on Western (and especially European) democracies. Disclaimer first: I'm not trying to protect him and I'm not tied to him in any possible way. But since when constantly expressing your own opinion (that's what I assume given the age of the account; maybe I'm wrong, but this seems rather like a person than a bot) is a deliberately malicious activity (as implied by your "trying to sow dissent" expression)? If their opinion doesn't match yours, it doesn't mean that they're evil or something similar. It just means that your views are different.
    - immibis2 4mo ago
sev_verso 4mo ago
VPNs are essential tools against government persecution. Linking identity to a VPN session under any guise (age verification or otherwise) is something out of the playbook of dictatorial states.
0x073 4mo ago
There was a time that parents control what websites children can access. Now there is a time politicians control what websites we can access.
pveierland 4mo ago
Age restrictions + VPN bans + encryption restrictions + client-side monitoring + restricting general purpose computing.. It's just rapid descent into digital fascism set up by people who have no ability to see how the dots will end up connecting.
- lpcvoid 4mo ago
  I think they absolutely have the ability to see it, it's part of the value proposition for them.
  - pveierland 4mo ago
    Speaking from the POV of my country, you absolutely have prime minister + minister level understandings that seem to plainly be based on issues such as "we need to stop children from bullying each other on social media", "we need to help police surveillance to stop crime", "we need to protect people from internet porn" etc, and it seems to be that the political capital and will to create these measures comes from short-term attempts to solve certain problems, without being able to understand how a broader set of these measures will together create digital fascism. Beyond that I fully believe there are intelligence agencies, advertising agencies, military interests, IP control interests etc that are all working very diligently and in more targeted ways to each achieve their goals better by pushing for specific measures and helping to amplify moral panics to build the necessary political capital.
- rufasterisco 4mo ago
  I am sorry you see it this way, when the very subject at hand is a practical example of how the EU has planned and built a wallet around the very same ideas you seem to cherish. Unfortunately, now that it comes to the news cycle, it’s easy to get outraged around misleading headlines. I encourage you to invest time in researching what the EU has done in the past decade around digital identities and their framing around privacy questions on this. I hope you will find, as I do, that it moved the needle in t he right direction.
  - 4mo ago
thunderbong 4mo ago
I have a question that's been going through my mind - Why is age verification connected with identity verification? I understand why the former is not possible with the latter, but my question is - Whichever entity is responsible for the verification can just pass on the age verification confirmation without passing through any of the other details, right? Am I mistaken here? Because if this was possible, I could still go ahead with using the VPN.
- xg15 4mo ago
  This seems to be what "double-blind" verification is doing: > The report highlights emerging approaches, such as “double-blind” verification systems used in France, where websites receive only confirmation that a user meets age requirements without learning the user's identity, while the verification provider does not see which websites the user visits.
- dinwos 4mo ago
  It's a question of blind trust in your government to respect this, when they themselves control the age verification apps, at least in the EU who wants to impose its own system and not rely on an autonomous third party.
  - palata 4mo ago
    It is cryptography. Just like you don't have to blindly trust Signal with end-to-end encryption (their client app is open source), it could be implemented in a way that you don't need to blindly trust your government.
- rufasterisco 4mo ago
  From a tech perspective it has been a solved problem since about a decade ago, via DID (decentralised identities) and their Verifiable Proofs. The EU digital wallet framework is built around those, and your suggested scenario is a first class citizen. It is now moving from the academic/research world, to the political field, and feedback/pressure from both commercial groups and political agendas is muddling the field. Here are some links to canonical docs, you can easily find high quality videos that explain this is shorter/simpler terms to get a grasp of it. https://www.w3.org/TR/did-1.0/ https://www.w3.org/TR/did-1.0/ https://www.w3.org/TR/vc-data-model-2.0/ https://www.w3.org/TR/vc-data-model-2.0/ A note: it’s one of the healthy byproducts of the blockchain age, don’t get sidetracked by some hyped videos from crypto bros.
lifestyleguru 4mo ago
They EU authorities care for children so much that they haven't noticed almost none are being born anymore in EU.
Joel_Mckay 4mo ago
Sounds more like they should have sand-boxed white-listed school networks for known publishers in each age group. Then leave the rest of the world out of domestic failed parenting nonsense. However, policy would still likely fail given the cruelty youthful ignorance often brings, and persistent 1:100 child psychopath occurrence rates. =3
shevy-java 4mo ago
The lobbyists are doing what they are paid to do. People pointed that out quite a while ago already. Age sniffing is a joint attack on the freedoms of people, which explains why these lobbyists also try to abolish VPNs. Their vision for the world wide web is one of authorization. Ultimately they will fail, but a few get rich here in the process.
harvey9 4mo ago
The people who really want to stop VPNs are commercial streamers, especially for live sports. Regardless of state, or governing party, it always comes back to money.
- FrustratedMonky 4mo ago
  This probably needs to be highlighted more. It isn't just governments. This is also quietly being backed by some big corporations with money .
  - joshstrange 4mo ago
    > governments > big corporations with money Is there a notable difference between these two in most places? There _should_ be but in practice it feels like more and more places function closer to an oligarchy than whatever form of “democracy” they espouse to practice.
    - praash 4mo ago
      I'm scared that the influence of the largest companies exceeds governments of most nations.
spacedoutman 4mo ago
We desperately need a new internet
rswail 4mo ago
Governments already have everyone's ID, including DOB. They say that the problem is non-adults accessing adult sites and services. So therefore, the sites need to know that users are over 18 (or the selected government age). There should be a standardized government ID service/API that allows a person to let it disclose their age (or other user selected information) to a requesting site/service. That's all that is needed if the government ID service has appropriate 2FA and security. Both the request and the response can be appropriately anonymized so that the government doesn't know the site, and the site doesn't know the person's identity. Why isn't this a thing yet? As far as I know, no one has proposed it.
- pembrook 4mo ago
  > if the government ID service has appropriate 2FA and security. You're kidding right?
  - Hikikomori 4mo ago
    These already exist in several eu countries. Imagine that there are governments that is not America and that actually work.
    - pembrook 4mo ago
      Just this year, France government ID system hacked: https://www.biometricupdate.com/202604/french-govt-confirms-hack-of-at-least-18m-records-from-id-document-database https://www.biometricupdate.com/202604/french-govt-confirms-...
      - rvnx 4mo ago
        "hacked", such a shame what happened in the background; it was a teenager who saw some url like "view_my_id_documents?id=1234" and just incremented the number, and could download the documents of other people (did on dozens of millions). .
      - Hikikomori 4mo ago
kro 4mo ago
VPN usage increased, but how to they draw the conclusion that this is children. I think it's more likely that adults are using VPNs to not have to deal with the ID process. I would do that. As VPNs usually cost some money, which is already a barrier for minors.
nirui 4mo ago
In case people no longer remember, when China started to require websites to register for a license before be allowed to operate, it was for "protecting the children" too. This simple policy then goes on to silence most individual publisher(/self-media) and consolidated the industry into the hands of the few, with no opportunity left for smaller entrepreneurs. This is arguably much worse than allowing children to watch porn online, because this will for sure effect people's whole life in a negative way. Also, if EU really wants "VPN services to be restricted to adults only", they should just fine the children who uses it, or their parent for allowing it to happen. The same way you fine drivers for traffic violation, but not the road. And if EU still think that's not enough, maybe they should just cut the cable, like what North Korea did.
- zero-hp 4mo ago
  Not only in China. Russian internet cenzorship also started as a "children protection" measure.
  - pronik 4mo ago
    Ursula von den Leyen has been pushing internet blocks in Germany for the sake of the children since 2009. Which is when "Zensursula" nickname has been coined. You don't need to look far to find the same thinking by the people in power.
    - jesterson 4mo ago
      they know mass populace is stupid and won't look behind the title. Are you against the law "protecting children"? Shame on you
    - joe_mamba 4mo ago
      >Ursula von den Leyen has been pushing internet blocks in Germany for the sake of the children since 2009. Which is when "Zensursula" nickname has been coined. And then in a completely democratic mannner, Europeans said "that's who we want leading us".
deleted 4mo ago
[deleted]
LightBug1 4mo ago
Over my dead internet connection. VPN for the VPN with a back-up VPN for the VPN's VPN.
Havoc 4mo ago
Tiresome surveillance state push
dragonelite 4mo ago
The western great fire wall is reducing its scope..
FrustratedMonky 4mo ago
If my kid can setup a VPN, then he's old enough.
ogogmad 4mo ago
ὦ Ευρώπη, this would kick off an arms race. μολὼν λαβέ!
redsocksfan45 4mo ago
[dead]
padjo 4mo ago
So a research arm of the European parliament is "the EU" now?
- rsynnott 4mo ago
  They also didn't say it was a loophole that needs closing; they just pointed out that the Children's Commissioner for England said that... Reporting on the EU tends to be quite bad, because people often don't really understand what it is or how it works (in particular there's a tendency to conflate what the commission wants to do with EU policy), but this is unusually careless reporting.
- miohtama 4mo ago
  It's funded by the EU budget.
  - EinigeKreise 4mo ago
    I'm sure you don't think that suffices. Do you extend that thinking to US and any of its national laboratories?
deleted 4mo ago
[deleted]
megous 4mo ago
Some EP commitee writes a report about some UK (not-EU) person stating "VPNs are a loophole that needs closing". > A loophole that needs closing [Some argue] that this is a loophole in the legislation that needs closing and call for age verification to be required for VPNs as well. [Some argue] being a link to some UK website https://www.europarl.europa.eu/thinktank/en/document/EPRS_ATA(2026)782618 https://www.europarl.europa.eu/thinktank/en/document/EPRS_AT...
jimkleiber 4mo ago
Maybe the problem is trying to govern a global space with sub-global governments.
ChoGGi 4mo ago
More bullshit from the gov. Add better parental controls to devices, if Facebook sends my children porn on a phone that's "underage" than they get a big fat fine. But I guess then there's no sending my ID to the world, think of the poor advertisers.
Kim_Bruning 4mo ago
People keep looking at the consumer privacy vpns , but there's a huge field of commercial vpn usage for a broad spectrum of tasks in the european union. Point to point tunnels connecting two sites into a single network. Allowing access to (corporate) resources via laptops and mobile devices. Fixing the one way nature of crappy internet that most people are forced to work with these days (or simply never realized), etc etc. Basically if you want to do any sort of remote work, I'm not saying you're necessarily using one right now, but the odds are good. Possibly the politician's own IT back-end might have ... opinions... on the ability of the executive to overly check the legislative too.
fleroviumna 4mo ago
[dead]
ofrzeta 4mo ago
Sorry for being blunt but those fuckheads won't stop until they ruined everything. No age verification in my house for computer use.
shark1 4mo ago
It's very easy to fall in this trap of "surveillance for the greater good". It reminds me the Mullvad pub campaign: https://mullvad.net/en/and-then/uk https://mullvad.net/en/and-then/uk
rsynnott 4mo ago
Terrible headline. The EPRS (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Parliamentary_Research_Service https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Parliamentary_Researc...) said a thing, not the EU. Also, the EPRS did not argue that they are a loophole that needs closing. From the actual paper: > Some argue that this is a loophole in the legislation that needs closing and call for age verification to be required for VPNs as well. In response, some VPN providers argue that they do not share information with third parties and state that their services are not intended for use by children in the first place. The "some argue" is a link; it turns out that 'some' here is the Children's Commissioner for England, a post with, AIUI, only an advisory role in the UK, and obviously not even that in the EU.
petre 4mo ago
Who are the commies behind this, apart from Ylva Johansson who pushed the former agenda and VdL?
sharyphil 4mo ago
Welcome to Яussia.
kkfx 4mo ago
The China gap is going to zero, yet slave masses still sleep...
kennykartman 4mo ago
If any EU government people are reading this, I'd like to send you a short message: Please stop thinking about the kids on the internet. But here's a brief list of things you must work on with higher urgency: - taxing more large corporations, - taxing more ultra-rich people, - funding EU-made (open source) tech and infrastructure, - let parents spend more time with their kids so they can actually protect their offspring and keep them safe from predators, more than any stupid law you think you can devise can do, - more trains.
- fithisux 4mo ago
  And then EU tyrrants please abolish yourselves. You are worse than cancer.
- tt24 4mo ago
  Lol, a list of other bogeymen “Don’t look at this scary monster, look at my pet issue scary monster instead!”
- Squarex 4mo ago
  I am sure that the problem of current EU is not lack of excesive taxation.
  - kennykartman 4mo ago
    I don't think that from my comment anyone can infer that I'm opposed to reducing general taxation. I'm, in fact, in favor in increasing taxes for who owns too much, not against reducing taxes to population with lower income.
    - Squarex 4mo ago
      Still, more tax burden for companies won’t make eu more competitive against the rest of the world. We need to dramatically cut down all the regulations, have a true one market, open capital market. I am still very much pro EU, but it needs to be reformed.
jazz9k 4mo ago
It always seems like the people on the right are almost always correct on calling things like this out early..and ignored as a conspiracy theory by the left, until it's far too late. The EU was known to be a privacy rights nightmare for at least 10 years now.
kittikitti 4mo ago
When the surveillance state wants to ban VPN's, we know their backdoors aren't as effective as they would like.
Detrytus 4mo ago
Well, we have to remember that the mankind natural state is slavery, a 200-year period of democracy was an anomaly that is now self-correcting.
zugi 4mo ago
I think it's more accurate to call the EU Parliament a "loophole that needs closing."
gnarlouse 4mo ago
Y'all see the plan though, right? Control the internet. Remove e2e encryption. Control/stifle dissent and uprisings. The plan is to replace the 99% with machines. It doesn't matter to the 1% if you survive their glorious, great filter. The great filter is billionaires. It's a billionaire control problem, not a superintelligence control problem. You're livestock. There's a better ox and cart that just pulled down the gravel road.
fithisux 4mo ago
They can't do it. They need a referendum since it affects people's security and well being. EU is a tyrrant.
sph 4mo ago
What annoys me the most is the half of these comments discuss the ‘protecting the children’ agenda when it is clear that it is all smoke and mirrors and it’s just a stepping stone for mass surveillance of adult citizens. You guys should know better, yet keep falling for the distraction every time. That’s exactly how they win.
jurschreuder 4mo ago
The internet is not the nice place it used to be with personal blogs. When we get younger employees they almost cannot work because of their phone addictions. There is billions of research going into making children addicted through the window of their phone screen to watch apps, and now with AI this is getting even more dangerous. It's not only children, also many elderly people are targeted. They are very lonely and then develop a Claude addiction.
- poly2it 4mo ago
  If you would be proposing a ban of VPNs to shield people from social medias, you would be missing the forest for the trees.
  - jurschreuder 4mo ago
    No I would propose to ban all smart phones and the entire internet
dmos62 4mo ago
I guess the basic way to do this is to make VPNs age restricted. I'm not as bearish on all this as most people here. I don't see much use for age restriction, except maybe keeping preteens off social media. That said, the proposed verification tech is very private, as far as I can tell. My review was cursory, though. Also, each EU member is free to use a different technical solution. Of course they're free to not make age verification obligatory at all. This programme is meant to be a strong default legislative and technical framework: it can't make EU members do something.
golemiprague 4mo ago
[dead]
holoduke 4mo ago
The problem with the EU is people like Kaja Kallis. Imbeciles without intelligence bringing Europe to a downfall. Lobbyists are entrenched in every part of its political system. Every single party is controlled and infiltrated by these groups representing institutions and large capital and most certainly not citizens. It's far worse than the US where there is a much tighter connection between politicians and local states. In the EU there is no transparency. Selection of jobs are done at prestige elitists universities where you opinion is carefully examined before entering the club.
varispeed 4mo ago
Translation: Advertisers need to know precise identity and location of the user for targeting. Corrupt EU Parliamentary: CLOSE VPNs!
rcbdev 4mo ago
The EU is losing around €50 billion every year to the fraud-scheme dubbed the VAT carousel (or MITF). The fix would be ridiculously simple, starting with an EU-wide VAT-ID scheme and a modicum of cooperation between financial ministries. Not one policy maker has ever seemingly cared about this. But VPNs! That'll fix the budget and demographic crises of European nations, for sure. I'm curious to see how the EU will maneuver it's new long-term financial plan when none of the members can even pay the membership fee soon.
subscribed 4mo ago
So the next step after that will be some DPI imposed on the ISP, aimed at detecting Tor and "invisible" or private VPNs... How come being that corrupt pays off so well when you're a politician.
miroljub 4mo ago
EU is totalitarian. If Europeans want to have a chance of protecting what's left of their freedoms, there's no other way than dissolving EU completely. It's not possible to reform that monster.
consoleable 4mo ago
The world is becoming like China.
dplesh 4mo ago
EU people are the poorest people of our world. Living in false pretense of being "free". The fancy pot on this fancy stove took a long time to reach boiling point. So long that the little frog inside did not even notice that it is the main course. Sometimes its too late to jump out of this pot. Feels like its state vs man nowdays, worldwide. Don't let them mislead you.
lacker 4mo ago
I wonder, if you ask a local LLM to access a forbidden site, from within Russia or China, can it figure out a way to do so, out of the box?
snapplebobapple 4mo ago
Personal freedom research service calls EU Parliament an abuser that needs heavy restriction on their actions and scope.
clear-octopus 4mo ago
[dead]

663 points by muse900 4mo ago

chii 4mo ago

How come tax loopholes aren't as scrutinized? Mandatory age verification online is a blight imho. It should be outlawed.

stirkac 4mo ago
How can you define a tax loophole then? Since there isn't a thing you can do called a "Tax loophole", but rather a collection of otherwise totally legitimate practices, just used as an optimization, they are impossible to define, and as such, be scrutinized. It's a neverending whack-a-mole...
jraby3 4mo ago
Why? Isn't your age verified when you renew your drivers license? Purchase something on Amazon? When I was a kid, child programming and commercials were heavily scrutinized. Now any kid can access porn, violence, and scams on the internet. That's a blight. Not age verification.
- tmjwid 4mo ago
  As a kid, you never found a stack of porno magazines in the woods did you?
- oneshtein 4mo ago
  > Now any kid can access porn, violence, and scams on the internet. Before Internet they used paper.
  - eloisant 4mo ago
    The ease of access, quantity and diversity of internet porn is in no common measure with magazines that existed in the 20th century.
  - bigstrat2003 4mo ago
    Before the Internet you had to work fairly hard to get a Playboy centerfold where the model just had her breasts out. Now you can effortlessly find endless depictions of anything, including the most depraved sex acts you can possibly imagine. The ease of access and breadth of content available to kids today makes it qualitatively different than when we were kids. That does not, of course, mean that age verification laws are the appropriate solution. You could even argue that it's not a problem that kids have access to all this stuff (though I don't think I would agree with that). But you can't just hand wave it away by saying "we looked at porn on paper when we were kids". The situations are not at all the same.
- zeroonetwothree 4mo ago
  I don’t understand, did broadcast TV or cable do age verification? Surely kids could watch content that was for adults very easily.
  - xg15 4mo ago
    Broadcast TV had a very simple solution to this problem: Only air the not-for-kids stuff at times of the day when the kids are already asleep, i.e. late in the evening or at night. It was still the job of the parents to set the bed times etc, but at least this was something the parents could actually control. And for pay-per-view stations with actual heavily violent or pornographic content: Yes, they were absolutely age-gated, usually via a PIN.
    - chii 4mo ago
      and who sets that pin? It's the parents, not the cable company.
      - xg15 4mo ago
        This is correct. I think the difference is that the PIN actually is an effective tool that parents can use to keep their kids from watching this stuff. It's also default-deny as the PIN is pre-set, and the parents would have to make a conscious efforts to allow viewing. Im contrast, the internet is default-permit: Everyone can access everything, unless the device is specifically set up to block it. Setting up such a block has the risk of causing massive drama with your kids, and they fill probably quickly find ways to circumvent it anyway. This is why I find the "it's the parent's responsibility" calls so hypocritical: The whole idea behind the internet is to make it as hard as possible to block things. But suddenly we expect the parents to do exactly that? How? (All that independent of the point that the current push for age verification really seems like a disguised push for control. But that doesn't mean there isn't a real problem. Both things can be true at the same time)
- kaliqt 4mo ago
  That’s the job of parents. No exceptions. OP is right, it needs to be outlawed.
- deleted 4mo ago
  [deleted]
- pibaker 4mo ago
  And yet juvenile crime rate is down. Bullying is down. Teenage pregnancy is way down. Even underage smoking and drinking is down. Maybe porn and violence is making today's teenager behave better than those 30 years ago after all!
vkou 4mo ago
What makes you think they aren't? The Double-Irish-Dutch-Sandwich in particular was cracked down on.
- spwa4 4mo ago
  To be replaced by the Irish tax department making direct deals that are essentially the same. But ONLY for specific companies (principle: big multinationals don't pay tax at all, local companies get big tax raises. Irish companies are dying, multinationals are moving to Ireland) https://taxsummaries.pwc.com/ireland/corporate/tax-credits-and-incentives https://taxsummaries.pwc.com/ireland/corporate/tax-credits-a... In case anyone wonders: this means the FANG companies don't pay tax in Ireland if they hire enough people in Ireland, which has famously high income tax. It is, in other words, effectively a massive tax increase on the employees while actually reducing total tax income in the EU compared to the "double dutch sandwich". Note that Ireland signed at least 2 international treaties that they weren't going to do this (OECD minimum tax treaty, EU tax treaty). Of course, there are no consequences to this. The response to is that EU is exploring company-tax-per-transaction which is so incredibly bad in the massive administrative burden it will generate. It's not final, but it will mean that for every transaction done companies will have to keep (PER transaction) pieces (plural) of evidence for what country they happened in. Every single transaction. https://joint-research-centre.ec.europa.eu/projects-and-activities/fiscal-policy-analysis/corporate-taxation_en https://joint-research-centre.ec.europa.eu/projects-and-acti...
  - nickff 4mo ago
    Lots of governments give tax exemptions to selected industries (film comes to mind) or even companies (Foxconn/TSMC); I don’t support this behavior, but I don’t see what makes Ireland special in this regard.
    - xg15 4mo ago
      Well, that was the original question of the thread: > How come tax loopholes aren't as scrutinized?
reddalo 4mo ago
I agree, age verification on the web should 100% banned. Parents should learn how to be parents; the government shouldn't force companies to do parenting instead.
- eloisant 4mo ago
  Governement should force companies to give parental controls tools. Gaming companies like Nintendo and Steam do that, I can create a kid account with parental controls. Social media companies (e.g. Meta, Snap) are the first that should provide that but they don't.
- otabdeveloper4 4mo ago
  So you're implying alcohol and cigarettes should be sold to children? (Not to mention all the other consent age laws.) That said, VPN is a national security issue, children are only a pretext.
  - hnlmorg 4mo ago
    Children have always found ways to access age restricted consumables. Whether that was porno mags, alcohol or cigarettes. They’d just get an older sibling, or stranger to buy it. Or they’d have a fake ID. Or they’d just steal it from a family member. But you know which kids did this the least? It was the ones where their parents / guardians took their responsibilities as a guardian properly.
    - palata 4mo ago
      > Children have always found ways to access age restricted consumables Doesn't mean that it's equivalent to giving them free access to those consumables. > But you know which kids did this the least? Source?
      - hnlmorg 4mo ago
        > Doesn't mean that it's equivalent to giving them free access to those consumables. Why do people on HN always need to look at things as a Boolean state? It’s entirely reasonable to have some preventative measures but acknowledging that there are ways to circumvent them and accept that as a reasonable conclusion. Things don’t need to be “all or nothing” ;) > Source? I grew up pre-WWW. Literally lived and breathed the points I’m making. But don’t just take my word on this. Ask anyone of a certain age and they’ll tell you the same: they either tried cigarettes or knew lots of kids in school who smoked under the age of 16. They had access to alcohol under the age of 18. And pornographic content was easy to get hold of under the age of 18. The age at which they gained access and the frequency of the usage depended greatly on their upbringing.
loeg 4mo ago
A tax "loophole" is just a deliberate policy you happen to disagree with.

SilverElfin 4mo ago

Ugh. Here we go again. Europe’s politicians just cannot stop with wanting to control everyone and everything. It’s as if bureaucracy is the actual goal. Privacy and anonymity should be protected by law. Not violated by law.

LaurensBER 4mo ago
I listen to a bunch of (mostly left) podcasts where they sometimes invite members of the European parlement and while I can agree with some of their opinions its downright scary how they think about regulations. For everything that's wrong in society the answer seems to be more and more regulations. The negative effects (such as the lack of European AI companies) are then waved away (it's because Europe spends their money on American AI instead of investing in EU AI). It's honestly scary.
- mclbdn 4mo ago
  Care to share some of these podcasts?
- deleted 4mo ago
  [deleted]
logicchains 4mo ago
[dead]
rufasterisco 4mo ago
EU enshrined privacy in its charter of fundamental rights. GDPR was and still is a major protection. US, from its biggest companies to the whole of Silicon Valley culture has done the exact opposite. Within the EU, multiple attempts at pushing changes in opposition to this have been proposed, debated, voted on (and rejected), as democracies do. Not perfect, but when you come down to laws, EU bureaucrats gave EU citizens article 8, US gave them the CLOUD act.
- rdm_blackhole 4mo ago

oneshtein 4mo ago

Yet another «copy protection». Legislation must call real experts before making any *technical* decisions.

applfanboysbgon 4mo ago

Ah yes, the most pressing issue of our times. Mandatory surveillance of every person's activities is a reasonable solution to the critical issue of teenagers watching porn, who totally won't be able to bypass this by... grabbing Dad's phone. Obviously, it's not about the children. It was never about the children. If I had my way every one of these people would be taken to a gulag, because they are evil, have evil intentions, and blatantly lie to further their evil goals. I am tired of the intolerant being tolerated, and by allowing this to fester we are headed for a much worse totalitarian dystopia.

donmcronald 4mo ago
All accounts and that are important to kids have are being tied to their real identity and they won’t be able to get a new one if they’re banned. The potential for social engineering is insane. All of these ID laws are going to make it more dangerous for kids online IMO. “Hi I’m a Roblox moderator. Your account was reported for X and you’ve been temp banned. Come to platform Y to appeal. Start by submitting all your personal info and a selfie.” And it’ll be completely normalized by big tech. Seriously. WTF are they thinking?
- microtonal 4mo ago
  First, I should say that I am against online age identification. But if we are going to get age verification because the larger population wants it, I definitely prefer the EU's privacy-preserving age verification that uses zero knowledge proofs (yes, they have issues too) over private companies doing age verification, requiring uploading scans of your ID, filming your face, etc. For the reasons that you mention (people can easily be tricked into giving information to the wrong people), but also because I simply do not want my data to be in the hands of random private companies that will sell the data, give it to Palantir, etc. That makes this fight so annoying, we have to fight age identification, while at the same time also promoting privacy-preserving age verification for the case it happens anyway.
  - applfanboysbgon 4mo ago

donmcronald 4mo ago

I think all the identity verification schemes should start with the beneficial owners of companies. Governments have been lobbied to allow complete anonymity for the wealthy that own businesses doing questionable things while regular people are going to have to show id to buy food.

patrickk 4mo ago
Shell companies for the ruling class, ever decreasing anonymity for the peasants.
nickff 4mo ago
As someone who lives in a jurisdiction which does require such disclosure: it is a significant inconvenience for small businesses, and no benefit to the general public.
- walrus01 4mo ago
  Do small businesses in your area have complicated ownership structures that it's significantly inconvenient to disclose the one family that owns, for an example small business , a plumbing repair company with 4 vans and 6 employees?
  - roenxi 4mo ago
    They might? If they don't and it is trivial to identify the beneficial owner, why is it necessary to create a requirement to disclose? The practical experience is that people are quite bad at this sort of requirement, that may well be a source of problems and that on aggregate making it harder to do business has a notable impact [0] on general prosperity. Don't needlessly put barriers in front of people who create wealth. It isn't a stretch to imagine that a small business owner literally doesn't have enough time in their life to maintain their own health and run their business. There are some pretty grim stories out there, I can tell one based on a friend of mine who was working ... I think 70 hour weeks. Sounded rough. It isn't actually crazy to say they may not have an hour free to figure out what form they need to fill out and where to file it, or that they'd be too sleep deprived to get it right. Assuming that this thing is the only thing they need to disclose and there aren't any other pieces of paperwork that need filing (which we all know there will be). Sure if they have to they'll probably figure it out in most cases, maybe it is trivial. But the businesses where a straw broke the camel's back don't exist any more to point at as evidence. It is hard to know. [0] https://www.grumpy-economist.com/p/the-cost-of-regulation https://www.grumpy-economist.com/p/the-cost-of-regulation

JV00 4mo ago

Perhaps these legislators are addicted to porn and don't want their children to do to themselves the same they have done. Would explain their obsession and relentlessness to get this done. It's just a pity they are destroying the internet while doing that. They should be attacking the companies making money from porn instead. And by the way porn can damage your mind even after 18 so age verification is not a real solution anyway.

skeptic_ai 4mo ago
Porn or social media or fake news destroy kids brain more? I can’t even tell
- balamatom 4mo ago
  Parents destroy kids' brains the most.
lifestyleguru 4mo ago
I agree that age verification is old perverts addicted to porn simply projecting their problem onto others. Kids after a day of continuous swiping of tiktok and instagram want tattoos and bitcoin.
- xg15 4mo ago
  Which is why the age restriction would apply to "normal" social media as well?
  - lifestyleguru 4mo ago
    Even better! Now teenager can legally buy bitcoin straight in the tattoo parlor one week after their 18th birthday.
danaris 4mo ago
Porn addiction has been shown not to be a real thing. People who believe they are addicted to porn view porn at approximately the same rate as other people: they just feel more guilty about it, due to being raised to believe that it is shameful. One source on the topic: https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/talking-apes/202207/the-trouble-with-porn-addiction https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/talking-apes/202207/...

9753268996433 4mo ago

[flagged]

qnpnpmqppnp 4mo ago

This title seems misleading. The EP paper appears to be highlighting the existence of a debate regarding VPN. Relevant quote: "Some argue that this is a loophole in the legislation that needs closing and call for age verification to be required for VPNs as well. In response, some VPN providers argue that they do not share information with third parties and state that their services are not intended for use by children in the first place. The Children's Commissioner for England has called for VPNs to be restricted to adult use only. While privacy advocates argue that imposing age-verification requirements on VPNs would pose significant risk to anonymity and date protection, child-safety campaigners claim that their widespread use by minors requires a regulatory response. Pornhub and other large pornography platforms have reportedly lost web traffic following the enforcement of age-verification rules in the UK, while VPN apps have reached the top of download rankings." Of course I'm not saying the EU won't regulate VPNs, but nowhere in this paper is "the EU" stating that VPNs need closing.

karmakurtisaani 4mo ago
This needs a new "law of headlines": whenever it's the EU saying something, it's never the EU that said that.
- dinfinity 4mo ago
  Even the, it's incredibly vague at best, equivalent to "The USA said that", which only makes sense in a context where the relevant spokespeople are well-defined (such as a UN assembly or something), but who is the general spokesperson for the USA or the EU? Usually things like these are qualified like "the Department of Defense of the USA stated X".
rufasterisco 4mo ago
The title is also the exact title for that paper’s chapter. You are right at pointing out that the paper is overall presenting the subject in a balanced manner, unfortunately it seems a bad choice was made when it came to that specific sentence, that gives a venue for it to be fed in the outrage machine. https://www.europarl.europa.eu/RegData/etudes/ATAG/2026/782618/EPRS_ATA(2026)782618_EN.pdf https://www.europarl.europa.eu/RegData/etudes/ATAG/2026/7826...

rdm_blackhole 4mo ago

Here we go again with new restrictions on civil liberties. This is Chat Control all over again. The EU won't stop until it has access to all your data, all your messages, anything you read, save, send will be scrutinized by the the big great EU and it's little minions. Hey, at least we get the freedom of movement right?

microtonal 4mo ago
There is no such thing as the EU wants X. There are huge differences between what the European Commission, the European Council, and the majority of the European Parliament want. Most of the anti-privacy crap hasn't happened thanks to the EU. Particular countries and lobbying groups have been pushing this through the Commission and Council and most attempts have been rejected by the EP. If we didn't have the EU, some countries would have long introduced this nonsense (like the UK). But in the EU that does not make much sense, since there is a single market, so you have to enforce it EU-wide. The European Parliament + courts of justice/human rights are one of the last beacons of democracy/freedom worldwide that resist upcoming authoritarianism. We should support them and remind the Parliament over and over again that they should be continuing the good fight. --- By the way, nearly all your comments on HN are about politics and all trying to sow dissent on Western (and especially European) democracies.
- dryarzeg 4mo ago
  > By the way, nearly all your comments on HN are about politics and all trying to sow dissent on Western (and especially European) democracies. Disclaimer first: I'm not trying to protect him and I'm not tied to him in any possible way. But since when constantly expressing your own opinion (that's what I assume given the age of the account; maybe I'm wrong, but this seems rather like a person than a bot) is a deliberately malicious activity (as implied by your "trying to sow dissent" expression)? If their opinion doesn't match yours, it doesn't mean that they're evil or something similar. It just means that your views are different.
  - immibis2 4mo ago

sev_verso 4mo ago

VPNs are essential tools against government persecution. Linking identity to a VPN session under any guise (age verification or otherwise) is something out of the playbook of dictatorial states.

0x073 4mo ago

There was a time that parents control what websites children can access. Now there is a time politicians control what websites we can access.

pveierland 4mo ago

Age restrictions + VPN bans + encryption restrictions + client-side monitoring + restricting general purpose computing.. It's just rapid descent into digital fascism set up by people who have no ability to see how the dots will end up connecting.

lpcvoid 4mo ago
I think they absolutely have the ability to see it, it's part of the value proposition for them.
- pveierland 4mo ago
  Speaking from the POV of my country, you absolutely have prime minister + minister level understandings that seem to plainly be based on issues such as "we need to stop children from bullying each other on social media", "we need to help police surveillance to stop crime", "we need to protect people from internet porn" etc, and it seems to be that the political capital and will to create these measures comes from short-term attempts to solve certain problems, without being able to understand how a broader set of these measures will together create digital fascism. Beyond that I fully believe there are intelligence agencies, advertising agencies, military interests, IP control interests etc that are all working very diligently and in more targeted ways to each achieve their goals better by pushing for specific measures and helping to amplify moral panics to build the necessary political capital.
rufasterisco 4mo ago
I am sorry you see it this way, when the very subject at hand is a practical example of how the EU has planned and built a wallet around the very same ideas you seem to cherish. Unfortunately, now that it comes to the news cycle, it’s easy to get outraged around misleading headlines. I encourage you to invest time in researching what the EU has done in the past decade around digital identities and their framing around privacy questions on this. I hope you will find, as I do, that it moved the needle in t he right direction.
- 4mo ago

thunderbong 4mo ago

I have a question that's been going through my mind - Why is age verification connected with identity verification? I understand why the former is not possible with the latter, but my question is - Whichever entity is responsible for the verification can just pass on the age verification confirmation without passing through any of the other details, right? Am I mistaken here? Because if this was possible, I could still go ahead with using the VPN.

xg15 4mo ago
This seems to be what "double-blind" verification is doing: > The report highlights emerging approaches, such as “double-blind” verification systems used in France, where websites receive only confirmation that a user meets age requirements without learning the user's identity, while the verification provider does not see which websites the user visits.
dinwos 4mo ago
It's a question of blind trust in your government to respect this, when they themselves control the age verification apps, at least in the EU who wants to impose its own system and not rely on an autonomous third party.
- palata 4mo ago
  It is cryptography. Just like you don't have to blindly trust Signal with end-to-end encryption (their client app is open source), it could be implemented in a way that you don't need to blindly trust your government.
rufasterisco 4mo ago
From a tech perspective it has been a solved problem since about a decade ago, via DID (decentralised identities) and their Verifiable Proofs. The EU digital wallet framework is built around those, and your suggested scenario is a first class citizen. It is now moving from the academic/research world, to the political field, and feedback/pressure from both commercial groups and political agendas is muddling the field. Here are some links to canonical docs, you can easily find high quality videos that explain this is shorter/simpler terms to get a grasp of it. https://www.w3.org/TR/did-1.0/ https://www.w3.org/TR/did-1.0/ https://www.w3.org/TR/vc-data-model-2.0/ https://www.w3.org/TR/vc-data-model-2.0/ A note: it’s one of the healthy byproducts of the blockchain age, don’t get sidetracked by some hyped videos from crypto bros.

lifestyleguru 4mo ago

They EU authorities care for children so much that they haven't noticed almost none are being born anymore in EU.

Joel_Mckay 4mo ago

Sounds more like they should have sand-boxed white-listed school networks for known publishers in each age group. Then leave the rest of the world out of domestic failed parenting nonsense. However, policy would still likely fail given the cruelty youthful ignorance often brings, and persistent 1:100 child psychopath occurrence rates. =3

shevy-java 4mo ago

The lobbyists are doing what they are paid to do. People pointed that out quite a while ago already. Age sniffing is a joint attack on the freedoms of people, which explains why these lobbyists also try to abolish VPNs. Their vision for the world wide web is one of authorization. Ultimately they will fail, but a few get rich here in the process.

harvey9 4mo ago

The people who really want to stop VPNs are commercial streamers, especially for live sports. Regardless of state, or governing party, it always comes back to money.

FrustratedMonky 4mo ago
This probably needs to be highlighted more. It isn't just governments. This is also quietly being backed by some big corporations with money .
- joshstrange 4mo ago
  > governments > big corporations with money Is there a notable difference between these two in most places? There _should_ be but in practice it feels like more and more places function closer to an oligarchy than whatever form of “democracy” they espouse to practice.
  - praash 4mo ago
    I'm scared that the influence of the largest companies exceeds governments of most nations.

spacedoutman 4mo ago

We desperately need a new internet

rswail 4mo ago

Governments already have everyone's ID, including DOB. They say that the problem is non-adults accessing adult sites and services. So therefore, the sites need to know that users are over 18 (or the selected government age). There should be a standardized government ID service/API that allows a person to let it disclose their age (or other user selected information) to a requesting site/service. That's all that is needed if the government ID service has appropriate 2FA and security. Both the request and the response can be appropriately anonymized so that the government doesn't know the site, and the site doesn't know the person's identity. Why isn't this a thing yet? As far as I know, no one has proposed it.

pembrook 4mo ago
> if the government ID service has appropriate 2FA and security. You're kidding right?
- Hikikomori 4mo ago
  These already exist in several eu countries. Imagine that there are governments that is not America and that actually work.
  - pembrook 4mo ago
    Just this year, France government ID system hacked: https://www.biometricupdate.com/202604/french-govt-confirms-hack-of-at-least-18m-records-from-id-document-database https://www.biometricupdate.com/202604/french-govt-confirms-...
    - rvnx 4mo ago
      "hacked", such a shame what happened in the background; it was a teenager who saw some url like "view_my_id_documents?id=1234" and just incremented the number, and could download the documents of other people (did on dozens of millions). .
    - Hikikomori 4mo ago

kro 4mo ago

VPN usage increased, but how to they draw the conclusion that this is children. I think it's more likely that adults are using VPNs to not have to deal with the ID process. I would do that. As VPNs usually cost some money, which is already a barrier for minors.

nirui 4mo ago

In case people no longer remember, when China started to require websites to register for a license before be allowed to operate, it was for "protecting the children" too. This simple policy then goes on to silence most individual publisher(/self-media) and consolidated the industry into the hands of the few, with no opportunity left for smaller entrepreneurs. This is arguably much worse than allowing children to watch porn online, because this will for sure effect people's whole life in a negative way. Also, if EU really wants "VPN services to be restricted to adults only", they should just fine the children who uses it, or their parent for allowing it to happen. The same way you fine drivers for traffic violation, but not the road. And if EU still think that's not enough, maybe they should just cut the cable, like what North Korea did.

zero-hp 4mo ago
Not only in China. Russian internet cenzorship also started as a "children protection" measure.
- pronik 4mo ago
  Ursula von den Leyen has been pushing internet blocks in Germany for the sake of the children since 2009. Which is when "Zensursula" nickname has been coined. You don't need to look far to find the same thinking by the people in power.
  - jesterson 4mo ago
    they know mass populace is stupid and won't look behind the title. Are you against the law "protecting children"? Shame on you
  - joe_mamba 4mo ago
    >Ursula von den Leyen has been pushing internet blocks in Germany for the sake of the children since 2009. Which is when "Zensursula" nickname has been coined. And then in a completely democratic mannner, Europeans said "that's who we want leading us".

deleted 4mo ago

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LightBug1 4mo ago

Over my dead internet connection. VPN for the VPN with a back-up VPN for the VPN's VPN.

Havoc 4mo ago

Tiresome surveillance state push

dragonelite 4mo ago

The western great fire wall is reducing its scope..

FrustratedMonky 4mo ago

If my kid can setup a VPN, then he's old enough.

ogogmad 4mo ago

ὦ Ευρώπη, this would kick off an arms race. μολὼν λαβέ!

redsocksfan45 4mo ago

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padjo 4mo ago

So a research arm of the European parliament is "the EU" now?

rsynnott 4mo ago
They also didn't say it was a loophole that needs closing; they just pointed out that the Children's Commissioner for England said that... Reporting on the EU tends to be quite bad, because people often don't really understand what it is or how it works (in particular there's a tendency to conflate what the commission wants to do with EU policy), but this is unusually careless reporting.
miohtama 4mo ago
It's funded by the EU budget.
- EinigeKreise 4mo ago
  I'm sure you don't think that suffices. Do you extend that thinking to US and any of its national laboratories?

deleted 4mo ago

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megous 4mo ago

Some EP commitee writes a report about some UK (not-EU) person stating "VPNs are a loophole that needs closing". > A loophole that needs closing [Some argue] that this is a loophole in the legislation that needs closing and call for age verification to be required for VPNs as well. [Some argue] being a link to some UK website https://www.europarl.europa.eu/thinktank/en/document/EPRS_ATA(2026)782618 https://www.europarl.europa.eu/thinktank/en/document/EPRS_AT...

jimkleiber 4mo ago

Maybe the problem is trying to govern a global space with sub-global governments.

ChoGGi 4mo ago

More bullshit from the gov. Add better parental controls to devices, if Facebook sends my children porn on a phone that's "underage" than they get a big fat fine. But I guess then there's no sending my ID to the world, think of the poor advertisers.

Kim_Bruning 4mo ago

People keep looking at the consumer privacy vpns , but there's a huge field of commercial vpn usage for a broad spectrum of tasks in the european union. Point to point tunnels connecting two sites into a single network. Allowing access to (corporate) resources via laptops and mobile devices. Fixing the one way nature of crappy internet that most people are forced to work with these days (or simply never realized), etc etc. Basically if you want to do any sort of remote work, I'm not saying you're necessarily using one right now, but the odds are good. Possibly the politician's own IT back-end might have ... opinions... on the ability of the executive to overly check the legislative too.

fleroviumna 4mo ago

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ofrzeta 4mo ago

Sorry for being blunt but those fuckheads won't stop until they ruined everything. No age verification in my house for computer use.

shark1 4mo ago

It's very easy to fall in this trap of "surveillance for the greater good". It reminds me the Mullvad pub campaign: https://mullvad.net/en/and-then/uk https://mullvad.net/en/and-then/uk

rsynnott 4mo ago

Terrible headline. The EPRS (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Parliamentary_Research_Service https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Parliamentary_Researc...) said a thing, not the EU. Also, the EPRS did not argue that they are a loophole that needs closing. From the actual paper: > Some argue that this is a loophole in the legislation that needs closing and call for age verification to be required for VPNs as well. In response, some VPN providers argue that they do not share information with third parties and state that their services are not intended for use by children in the first place. The "some argue" is a link; it turns out that 'some' here is the Children's Commissioner for England, a post with, AIUI, only an advisory role in the UK, and obviously not even that in the EU.

petre 4mo ago

Who are the commies behind this, apart from Ylva Johansson who pushed the former agenda and VdL?

sharyphil 4mo ago

Welcome to Яussia.

kkfx 4mo ago

The China gap is going to zero, yet slave masses still sleep...

kennykartman 4mo ago

If any EU government people are reading this, I'd like to send you a short message: Please stop thinking about the kids on the internet. But here's a brief list of things you must work on with higher urgency: - taxing more large corporations, - taxing more ultra-rich people, - funding EU-made (open source) tech and infrastructure, - let parents spend more time with their kids so they can actually protect their offspring and keep them safe from predators, more than any stupid law you think you can devise can do, - more trains.

fithisux 4mo ago
And then EU tyrrants please abolish yourselves. You are worse than cancer.
tt24 4mo ago
Lol, a list of other bogeymen “Don’t look at this scary monster, look at my pet issue scary monster instead!”
Squarex 4mo ago
I am sure that the problem of current EU is not lack of excesive taxation.
- kennykartman 4mo ago
  I don't think that from my comment anyone can infer that I'm opposed to reducing general taxation. I'm, in fact, in favor in increasing taxes for who owns too much, not against reducing taxes to population with lower income.
  - Squarex 4mo ago
    Still, more tax burden for companies won’t make eu more competitive against the rest of the world. We need to dramatically cut down all the regulations, have a true one market, open capital market. I am still very much pro EU, but it needs to be reformed.

jazz9k 4mo ago

It always seems like the people on the right are almost always correct on calling things like this out early..and ignored as a conspiracy theory by the left, until it's far too late. The EU was known to be a privacy rights nightmare for at least 10 years now.

kittikitti 4mo ago

When the surveillance state wants to ban VPN's, we know their backdoors aren't as effective as they would like.

Detrytus 4mo ago

Well, we have to remember that the mankind natural state is slavery, a 200-year period of democracy was an anomaly that is now self-correcting.

zugi 4mo ago

I think it's more accurate to call the EU Parliament a "loophole that needs closing."

gnarlouse 4mo ago

Y'all see the plan though, right? Control the internet. Remove e2e encryption. Control/stifle dissent and uprisings. The plan is to replace the 99% with machines. It doesn't matter to the 1% if you survive their glorious, great filter. The great filter is billionaires. It's a billionaire control problem, not a superintelligence control problem. You're livestock. There's a better ox and cart that just pulled down the gravel road.

fithisux 4mo ago

They can't do it. They need a referendum since it affects people's security and well being. EU is a tyrrant.

sph 4mo ago

What annoys me the most is the half of these comments discuss the ‘protecting the children’ agenda when it is clear that it is all smoke and mirrors and it’s just a stepping stone for mass surveillance of adult citizens. You guys should know better, yet keep falling for the distraction every time. That’s exactly how they win.

jurschreuder 4mo ago

The internet is not the nice place it used to be with personal blogs. When we get younger employees they almost cannot work because of their phone addictions. There is billions of research going into making children addicted through the window of their phone screen to watch apps, and now with AI this is getting even more dangerous. It's not only children, also many elderly people are targeted. They are very lonely and then develop a Claude addiction.

poly2it 4mo ago
If you would be proposing a ban of VPNs to shield people from social medias, you would be missing the forest for the trees.
- jurschreuder 4mo ago
  No I would propose to ban all smart phones and the entire internet

dmos62 4mo ago

I guess the basic way to do this is to make VPNs age restricted. I'm not as bearish on all this as most people here. I don't see much use for age restriction, except maybe keeping preteens off social media. That said, the proposed verification tech is very private, as far as I can tell. My review was cursory, though. Also, each EU member is free to use a different technical solution. Of course they're free to not make age verification obligatory at all. This programme is meant to be a strong default legislative and technical framework: it can't make EU members do something.

golemiprague 4mo ago

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holoduke 4mo ago

The problem with the EU is people like Kaja Kallis. Imbeciles without intelligence bringing Europe to a downfall. Lobbyists are entrenched in every part of its political system. Every single party is controlled and infiltrated by these groups representing institutions and large capital and most certainly not citizens. It's far worse than the US where there is a much tighter connection between politicians and local states. In the EU there is no transparency. Selection of jobs are done at prestige elitists universities where you opinion is carefully examined before entering the club.

varispeed 4mo ago

Translation: Advertisers need to know precise identity and location of the user for targeting. Corrupt EU Parliamentary: CLOSE VPNs!

rcbdev 4mo ago

The EU is losing around €50 billion every year to the fraud-scheme dubbed the VAT carousel (or MITF). The fix would be ridiculously simple, starting with an EU-wide VAT-ID scheme and a modicum of cooperation between financial ministries. Not one policy maker has ever seemingly cared about this. But VPNs! That'll fix the budget and demographic crises of European nations, for sure. I'm curious to see how the EU will maneuver it's new long-term financial plan when none of the members can even pay the membership fee soon.

subscribed 4mo ago

So the next step after that will be some DPI imposed on the ISP, aimed at detecting Tor and "invisible" or private VPNs... How come being that corrupt pays off so well when you're a politician.

miroljub 4mo ago

EU is totalitarian. If Europeans want to have a chance of protecting what's left of their freedoms, there's no other way than dissolving EU completely. It's not possible to reform that monster.

consoleable 4mo ago

The world is becoming like China.

dplesh 4mo ago

EU people are the poorest people of our world. Living in false pretense of being "free". The fancy pot on this fancy stove took a long time to reach boiling point. So long that the little frog inside did not even notice that it is the main course. Sometimes its too late to jump out of this pot. Feels like its state vs man nowdays, worldwide. Don't let them mislead you.

lacker 4mo ago

I wonder, if you ask a local LLM to access a forbidden site, from within Russia or China, can it figure out a way to do so, out of the box?

snapplebobapple 4mo ago

Personal freedom research service calls EU Parliament an abuser that needs heavy restriction on their actions and scope.

clear-octopus 4mo ago

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