11 ms·
Removing the modem and GPS from my 2024 RAV4 hybrid
- _blk 4mo agocool, well done. Now we just need it for the other gazillion "smart-cars" out there
- p00ter 4mo agoThere's going to be a lot of this going on in the future. RabbitLabs CAN Commander go BRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR.
- threecheese 4mo agoI though this was just a crazy commenter, but here: https://rabbit-labs.com/product/cancommander/ https://rabbit-labs.com/product/cancommander/ Crazy commenter, tell us a little about this. Can I use it on any Can bus?
- fullstop 4mo agoFrom what I understand the CAN traffic on my vehicle is encrypted. Clearly this does not apply to all of the traffic, as I can fetch some OBD2 data with a generic dongle.
- stefan_ 4mo agoThe data on the OBD2 port is legally mandated, so can't be encrypted. But besides encryption CAN buses in a car are also separated, the bus on the OBD2 plug often can't even talk to the most interesting components.
- disastronaut 4mo agoCAN is a protocol, but the messages on the bus are implementation specific. Yes, you can use it on any CAN bus, but there's no guarantee that you will be able to decode the traffic. Some modern CAN networks are encrypted, too, because it's trivial to view the traffic. https://kentindell.github.io/2021/01/02/can2-wireshark/ https://kentindell.github.io/2021/01/02/can2-wireshark/ has a great guide on decoding traffic with sigrok.
- java-man 4mo agoMaybe two metal pins through the GPS and the cellular antenna coaxial cables would do the trick?
- foobarian 4mo agoYou would be surprised how leaky RF can be and how hard to completely suppress. There is a reason things like anechoic chambers and test labs are very expensive.
- java-man 4mo agoLeaky - possibly, but we are dealing with the real world where you have plenty of background noise. The cell tower will likely fail to receive the signal.
- foobarian 4mo agoThat's just it - move in just the right spot where reflections combine in the right way, and it might be enough to get a ping. So the tracking would still be there just less reliable, with an unknown level of degradation. In the end you still wouldn't have any guarantees.
- ssl-3 4mo agoIt doesn't take much of a leak. Radiation likes to radiate. I used to keep my work phone in a Faraday bag sometimes. (I had my reasons[1]). It usually worked. Occasionally, it didn't work and the phone would demonstrate this by doing phone-stuff like ringing even while it was snug inside of that conductive bag. So sometimes, the radiation was radiating well-enough despite my efforts. Not so long ago, I was chatting with someone here on HN about blocking RF at GHz frequencies using aluminum foil. I was sure that it would be trivial, and they were sure that it would be difficult. So I tested that. I started pinging my phone on its LAN IP, and wrapped it in foil. I found that I could increase latency some and also institute some packet loss. But I couldn't stop it altogether -- not with a sheet of aluminum foil, anyway. No matter how carefully I made the creases, pings simply kept happening. (Having satisfactorily demonstrated to myself that were right and that it would be difficult, I stopped testing at that point.) --- So here in reality, suppose the [car's] cellular connection finds that it has a connection occasionally. What's to stop it from buffering data and sending it in batches during times when it works? A few dozen lines of code that's geared to that purpose, perhaps? Or maybe a few hundred lines, instead? Not that the difficulty matters much; the software is all closed up and inscrutable. If the value of batching data to deal with intermittent connections is greater than the cost of producing the code to do this, then it can be assumed that such code has been or will be written. --- [1]: An abusive manager I had liked to turn on the tracking system that the phone had. I didn't mind being tracked while I was on the clock, but I placed a higher value on my privacy than on her ability to be a snoopy bitch when I was not on the clock. My Faraday bag solution was adequate for that phone, at that time, with that particular tracking system, and for my particular desires, and I had access to the system with which to validate the adequacy of this success, but it was by no means perfect.
- venussnatch 4mo agoWhat is the suspected method of Bluetooth communication? Afaik phones do not share their internet blindly to Bluetooth devices.
- max8539 4mo agoAlso thought about it. It’s possible, but requires enabling hotspot on the phone. Without it, it will not share internet via BT.
- fragmede 4mo agoIt would also require that my phone not show my car using the hotspot, when it does show my laptop, and also for my cellphone plan to not show that usage (I have limited hotspot data), which is theoretically possible, but now we're talking three companies having to collude in a totally undetectable fashion, which seems a little far fetched.
- buran77 4mo agoThe author probably means CarPlay and Android Auto. In wireless mode they share the phone's internet connection. The adapter linked in the article is a CarPlay adapter, not plain BT.
- max8539 4mo agoSeems like this way of using CarPlay isn’t documented. Bluetooth is used for discovery and WiFi/USB for CarPlay communication but not for providing car and internet access. Using users’ phone data without notice could be noticeable by users as well…
- icehawk 4mo agoThat doesn't seem right at all, since my phone doesn't have tethering plan and I can still use CarPlay.
- jeroenhd 4mo agoBluetooth PAN seems to work pretty seamlessly once you've paired your phone and set it up. It's possible some kind of "seamless hotspot" functionality is remotely activating PAN on a paired device.
- nurple 4mo ago> Even after the modem is removed, if you connect your phone to the car via Bluetooth then the car will use your phone as an internet connection and send all the same telemetry data back to Toyota. However, if you use a wired USB connection then it does not do that (see the discussion here and elsewhere), so I exclusively use CarPlay via USB. The problem with this is that both carplay and android auto capture their own vehicle telemetry. So even though the car is not able to use your phone as a general data pipe, Google and Apple still get access to this data when you're connected. They are both very cagey with how they talk about this (or don't).
- zackify 4mo agoI use android auto through grapheneos thankfully! this is crazy!
- andrepd 4mo agoCan you clarify? Does it feed it bullshit data? Because android auto expects car telemetry data which it streams to Google's servers. Which is a big no-no for me for obvious reasons.
- piaste 4mo agoIt doesn't stop Android Auto from doing whatever with the car data, but it's sandboxed to have no more default privileges than a regular app, so it can be denied access to your phone's data by default (apps, contacts, etc.). Wireless AA will only work if you grant it extra privileges; wired AA does not need them. You can also "firewall" AA via something like TrackerControl, this would let you block connections to eg. Google Analytics servers without denying network access altogether (which would likely cause AA to stop working). I've only used AA with short-term rentals so I didn't spend too much time exploring these options.
- andrepd 4mo agoFair enough. Streaming my location and an OBD dump to Google whenever I'm driving is a non-starter for me, so I'll stick with the aux cord!
- dingdingdang 4mo agoExcellent practical guide and pictures, if OP is around on this thread: well done! Your future self is going to appreciative too when this needs repeating at some point!
- aframemodular 4mo agoGreat guide! After getting to the end, I had no idea what AirPlay was so I looked it up... bro, all this effort to avoid telemetry and you are using an iPhone XD
- summermusic 4mo agoI dread the day I will have to start doing this when the 2015 vehicle I have finally goes
- Barbing 4mo ago> Unfortunately I think it’s only a matter of time before the modem and GPS become more deeply integrated into the car (making this blog post infeasible), or cars have more drastic failure modes when the modem/GPS is removed, or anti-right-to-repair laws get passed to further clamp down on this behavior. Guaranteed
- hughw 4mo agoIt's for the safety of the children.
- Creamsicle47 4mo agoThe DOW is over 50,000!
- everdrive 4mo agoThe 2024 Ford Maverick has a single fuse for the telematics unit that you can remove without throwing a code or an error. No idea if this remained true after the 2025-2026 refresh, but worth knowing. https://www.mavericktruckclub.com/forum/threads/telematics-fuse-11.50301/ https://www.mavericktruckclub.com/forum/threads/telematics-f...
- drnick1 4mo agoOlder Toyotas also had a DCM fuse, and this was the easiest way to get rid of telemetry. I am not sure if partially disassembling the dash and physically removing the DCM is now necessary.
- arkadiyt 4mo agoThere's still a fuse for the DCM even in this car but: - It has an internal battery and will keep running for quite a while after pulling the fuse. This is a safety feature in case you get in a crash that disconnects the 12V battery - It will break your in-car microphone as discussed. Repairing that requires opening up the dash - That won't do anything for disconnecting the GPS antenna
- brewdad 4mo agoGPS is receive only. If you've disabled the ability to send telemetry, there should be no reason to be concerned about the GPS antenna.
- fc417fc802 4mo agoIf it keeps collecting telemetry it could upload it later if it ever gets the chance. Better it isn't collected in the first place.
- drnick1 4mo agoGood point, but in practice I think the only way onboard data could be exfiltrated is by a dealer while the car is being serviced. If you DIY or hire an independent mechanic, this seems unlikely.
- TheChaplain 4mo agoIf you live in the EU and bought the car there, the GDPR still applies, even if data is sent to Toyota in Japan. You have the full right to view and ask for deletion.
- wiml 4mo agoYou'd think people would be doing that already. Has anyone posted details? Can you skirt the GDPR by making it hard to discover who you need to ask?
- bee_rider 4mo agoWho’s responsible for presenting the privacy policy to passengers of a car, anyway?
- amelius 4mo agoModern cars are like Smart TVs.
- IdiotSavage 4mo agoSoon: ads on your HUD while you wait in traffic.
- placatedmayhem 4mo agoThis has already happened: https://www.motorbiscuit.com/jeep-dodge-owners-mad-infotainment-ads/ https://www.motorbiscuit.com/jeep-dodge-owners-mad-infotainm...
- at-fates-hands 4mo agoLast year we got a rental car when we were in Florida. When we first left the airport, we were using the navigation app that was in the car. First red light? Navigation app suddenly goes black and a commercial starts playing. My wife and I both look at each other like, "WTF is going on?!?" Light turns green commercial clips out and the navigation app starts working again. We waited to see if it happened at the next light. Sure enough, the last commercial finished and another started as the light turned green. Tuned it off and used our phones from there to the hotel. That was the last time we used a rental cars navigation. So yeah, its already happening.
- 4chandaily 4mo agoThis would be the last time I used that rental car company. If they wanted to make more money from you, they should have just raised the price. That is disgusting.
- dylan604 4mo agoThere's only so many rental companies. It might look like there's a lot, but they are all pretty much a sibling company to a larger parent.
- ezfe 4mo ago> Even after the modem is removed, if you connect your phone to the car via Bluetooth then the car will use your phone as an internet connection and send all the same telemetry data back to Toyota What is the basis for this claim? I've never heard of this capability.
- arkadiyt 4mo agoIt's from the linked rav4world post
- venussnatch 4mo agoThere's no basis mentioned there either. It's just stated as a matter of fact without explanation.
- ezfe 4mo ago> One caveat, if you use bluetooth to connect your phone to the car DCM will use your phone to connect to the mother ship and presumably send your data. I only use my iPhone cable to connect to the car which does not have this effect. A random post on a forum is not evidence that Toyota has found a magic way to exfiltrate data over a bluetooth connection without turning on hotspot/etc.
- tadfisher 4mo agoIt's not evidence against it either. Presumably CarPlay and Android Auto could implement a network interface through the application layer, or even activate Bluetooth tethering at the system level as they are privileged apps. But they could also do this over USB, so something doesn't add up.
- throwway120385 4mo agoRNDIS was a mechanism for tethering over USB, and you could certainly pair "Bluetooth Network Adapters" for years and there's a profile for it. So there's at least precedent for it. That makes it pretty plausible to me.
- 4mo ago
- chzblck 4mo agoI cannot imagine the paranoia that it would take for me to go through this process.
- EvanAnderson 4mo agoI cannot imagine the lack of concern about my privacy that it would take to make me daily-drive a car that hadn't been put through this process. (I dread the day my 2007 Civic is no longer usable.)
- b112 4mo agoNot to mention, people kept saying "Who cares, you're being silly" then multiple companies were caught selling into to insurance companies.
- s3p 4mo agoThis is why I hate the online car owner forums. Car owners ask reasonable questions like these and people sneer in their replies saying "that's a horrible idea" as if somehow every car owner agreed to universal tracking into telemetry and is totally fine with it.
- ErroneousBosh 4mo agoMy daily is a 1997 Range Rover. You want to update the computer? Sure, you need to remove the desktop PC-sized box of 68HC11-family chips from under the driver's seat and desolder the two big 144-pin ones.
- tclancy 4mo agoStep 1. Be very, very single When I was a younger man, audio visual forums used to have an unfortunately sexist, but fairly good conceptual measure they called “wife acceptance factor”. It should really just be partner acceptance factor. Regardless of whom you are with, I hope they would physically intervene before letting you do this. What is the point? All of these posts feel like they miss the forest for the trees. Don’t like This Modern World? Fair enough, start by leaving your phone at home. Pay cash. And so forth. The author’s problems would be better solved by taking the bus. If you’re going to get into messing with cars, the wiring harness is not the place to start. Every trip to the dealer or any other mechanic is going to be painful right up until you finally give up and try to private sale the vehicle. At some point in that process, after you have dropped the price by over half the Kelley Blue Book value (or whatever Palantir shit replaces that) you may actually hear yourself explaining to the pleasantly smiling with a certain look in their eye non buyer about how you had to do this. I will admit my bias. Fair play to the author for putting this all together but it reads like a very intricate aluminum foil hat.
- ezfe 4mo agoJust a note about Toyota specifically - There are many blog posts and articles out there alleging that Toyota shares your data with insurance companies. As I own two Toyota's I have read through these carefully and consistently the theme is that the owner was opted into this program without knowing it (likely by the sales person clicking through setup steps to enable every feature). If you are not opted in, I have seen no evidence they share driving data. When I set up my Toyotas, the app clearly walks through the programs they have and you must click either "yes/opt in" or "no/opt out" for each program. It is not opted in by default.
- dylan604 4mo agoI've bought multiple Toyotas from the same dealer, and each time the sales person has been overly aggressive about setting up the app and connecting to the car. The first time I let them do it to a point as I had not seen what it did, but had to prevent them from syncing contacts. After that, I had to be very stern about not needing help to set up an app I was never going to use. I don't know if they are used to neophytes being unable to handle this and think they are doing a service or if it's a push to get people to connect/sync as much as possible.
- jabroni_salad 4mo agoaccording to some guys on r/askcarsales the manufacturers have required KPIs for onboarding app users so they just have to do it.
- addaon 4mo agoI assume any dealer who's comfortable signing a contract (terms of service) on your behalf is comfortable with you signing a contract on their behalf. Time to write yourself a new car.
- giancarlostoro 4mo ago> I don't know if they are used to neophytes being unable to handle this and think they are doing a service or if it's a push to get people to connect/sync as much as possible. Likely doing it to remove any frustrations from the brand new buyer being unable to figure out how to set it all up. The last thing you need is someone changing their mind about the car they just bought, because well if setting up the app is a PITA, what else is terrible about the car?
- deleted 4mo ago[deleted]
- swader999 4mo agoIf you get into enough trouble they'll get all your phone data and cell tower pings or your passenger's.
- chromadon 4mo agoI wonder if insurance would refuse to pay out in the event of an accident due to this modification?
- parliament32 4mo agoThey would have to prove the modification caused the accident.
- HDBaseT 4mo agoNo they don't. They can deny any claim for any reason, the onus gets flipped on you because if you want to fight back, you have to take a multi-billion dollar company to court .
- lapetitejort 4mo agoIf you are wary of all the smart features in your next car purchase, consider buying a bicycle. We do not have to entertain the creeping invasion of our privacy
- bigfishrunning 4mo agoMy hilly 25 mile commute isn't really bicycle compatible, unfortunately
- fc417fc802 4mo agoThere are impressively capable ebikes these days. I wonder how long before tracking gets introduced to those ...
- SoftTalker 4mo agoIf you ride with your phone you're already being tracked.
- chris_explicare 4mo ago[dead]
- Animats 4mo agoHow good a position can you get from GPS today in receive only mode? You can download and store Open Street Map for individual states. Map data doesn't have to come in over the air. That's not the problem. It's enhancing GPS with cell phone tower data that's the problem. That requires a cell connection.
- stackghost 4mo ago>That requires a cell connection. Technically it only requires an antenna that can listen on the LTE band (or even GSM). Trilaterating based on cell towers with a hackRF or other SDR is a fun exercise.
- ssl-3 4mo agoDo you happen to live in an area where cell towers broadcast their location? (Here in the States, they don't do that. The best we get to have are crowd-sourced maps that are generally held behind someone else's lock and key.)
- stackghost 4mo ago>Do you happen to live in an area where cell towers broadcast their location? I'm in Canada, I don't think they broadcast their GPS coordinates. But most of their locations are publicly available, such as: https://www.ertyu.org/steven_nikkel/cancellsites.html?lat=51.998410&lng=-96.987305&zoom=4&type=Roadmap&layers=a&pid=0&ds=0 https://www.ertyu.org/steven_nikkel/cancellsites.html?lat=51...
- garaetjjte 4mo agoI don't think cell tower connection will give you any more precision, GNSS fix will be much more accurate. (within few meters) You could get more accurate fix with RTK data, but I'm not sure if that's actually widely used. And in any case that doesn't require active communications either, you could get correction data from satellite broadcasts too.
- themafia 4mo ago
- fnord77 4mo agoCouldn't you just ground or resistor out the car's cellular antenna so it can't transmit data?
- class3shock 4mo agoThere's a post earlier linking to someone doing that for a Tacoma
- jmward01 4mo agoWe need more posts like this. I'd love a follow-up where instead of removing it injects fake data to the system. I am tired of passively being digitally assaulted. If they are going to do this to me without my knowing consent I want to fight back.
- analogpixel 4mo agoI'm always surprised there aren't more projects that just pump random data back into all of these system. I think awhile back there was a plugin that would click on every advertisement it saw over and over, but got shutdown for some reason. But how hard is it to just have everyone inject nonstop data to all of these tracking systems? if nothing else a drive somewhere is going to eventually fill up.
- jmward01 4mo agoHmmm... This isn't evil enough. This could actually work. This data is valuable which means there are entities that will pay to bias it. If you want a business to look more traveled, create fake driving tracks to it. If you want insurance to give you an amazing deal, build a system to slow your driving to look perfect. Random is likely easy to detect but why not get paid to forward fake data that someone else wants to inject! They will spend real time figuring out how to make it look real and get value out of it which will -really- destroy the dataset.
- mywittyname 4mo agoThere have been plenty of projects that do send junk data to these endpoints. The problem is the junk data gets users noticed because some manager looking at dashboards gets an alert about some supersonic Corolla driving down the Pacific. And they go yell at the team responsible. As a result, analytics endpoints generally have some authentication and verification built into them. Obviously, with enough time it's possible to reverse engineer these components. But that's a lot of time and effort vs just blocking the request.
- rllearneratwork 4mo agothis is great idea! Hackers of Hacker News let's have more projects to overwhelm bad actors with bad data. Perhaps using OSS LLMs for that.
- a-dub 4mo ago> Strong Federal privacy laws would make posts like this unnecessary, that’s the world I’d rather live in. yes. there ought to be a right to reasonable expectation of behavioral privacy where if it's not obvious and intrinsic to function that behavior is being recorded then it must be consented with functional opt-out. gps tracking to the manufacturer of a car seems egregious. i wonder if it runs afoul of anti-stalking laws.
- mono442 4mo agoModern cars are horrible. I recently discovered that all new cars sold in the EU constantly beep at you for supposedly speeding, even though the system doesn’t work well, and it has to be turned off every time you start the car.
- brewdad 4mo agoIsn't eye tracking required there too now? If you look away, or even not in the direction the car expects, for more than a couple of seconds >> more beeps.
- mono442 4mo agoThe car I drove from 2025 didn't have it.
- retired 4mo agoIt’s horrible since it gets the speed wrong 25% of the time and 25% of the time it beeps because you are doing 33 in a 30kmh zone because you are just going along with traffic. When you get in a car, you have to spend 20 seconds disabling all those systems. Lane keep assist is downright dangerous as it keeps you in your lane if you do an emergency avoidance manoeuvre. I don’t hate safety system like emergency brake assist or ABS but I don’t need a nanny keeping me in my lane. I also don’t need a coffee symbol for taking a break.
- trinix912 4mo agoMy Honda Civic gets the speed wrong almost 100% of the time in Slovenia where intersections automatically cancel out non-zoned speed limit signs (so no crossed out signs that the car could read). Luckily it doesn’t beep or nag about it. (Which makes me wonder, is there a flag set to make it not beep on cars sold here? Cuz otherwise people would be returning them en masse)
- orloffm 4mo agoIt's the same in Poland. Toyota found a way that you can install some "immobilizer" thing that hacks the system into muting the alerts (but they still blink though) and was so proud that they started calling owners offering it for install. But all the cars do beep.
- deleted 4mo ago[deleted]
- ro_bit 4mo ago> Everything that relies on a data connection will no longer work. This includes things like over-the-air updates as well as Toyota cloud-based services and SOS functionality I hate how this is a trade off. It’s totally possible for cars to broadcast their location only if the SOS is pressed or the crash sensor is triggered, but it feels like there’s no way to have that without also having everything else.
- mchusma 4mo agoI get this desire and commend the author, but I just want self driving cars and so I think we are just stuck with this.
- antonvs 4mo agoWhy is a self-driving car so important to you? Is it really worth giving up your privacy, and advocating that others should give up theirs, just for some shortcoming in your own capabilities?
- fc417fc802 4mo agoWhy should a self driving car need a network connection? It's an absurd false dichotomy. Certainly that's what will be produced if the manufacturers are allowed to get away with it but that's not a technical problem it's a social and legal one.
- s3p 4mo agoThis wasn't @fc417fc802's dichotomy, it was the person above them who posted. They were responding to another comment which assumed this
- addaon 4mo ago> just for some shortcoming in your own capabilities? It's a shortcoming each of us will have, if we're so lucky as to live that long.
- Sohcahtoa82 4mo agoFor some, driving is an absolute chore. A mind-numbingly boring task.
- antonvs 4mo agoThey sound “special”.
- dylan604 4mo ago
- alxjsn 4mo agoAnother method is to disconnect the antenna and add a resistor so it acts as a dummy load. Here is an example with a Tacoma: https://www.tacomaworld.com/threads/simpler-solution-for-disabling-the-dcm-telematics-silencing-antennas.821649/ https://www.tacomaworld.com/threads/simpler-solution-for-dis...
- pryelluw 4mo agoThis is what I thought about doing instead. Removing the whole module seems overkill. Removing the signal should be enough to disable it.
- dbavaria 4mo agoApps like Spotify in my Volvo are convinced I am in New Jersey while I'm on the opposite coast. On one hand I like that inaccurate data is being peddled to advertisers but at the same time I would actually prefer regionally relevant ads if I have to listen to them anyway.
- everdrive 4mo agoAlso worth noting that as recently as 2024, the S and SV models for Nissan did not have telematics whatsoever. This may still be true for the 2025 / 2026 models, I just haven't checked.
- inahga 4mo agoHas anyone experienced a case where they needed an over-the-air safety update/recall performed, but weren't able to because they removed the cellular modem? I'd like to think failure to apply an OTA safety update would trigger a mail-out notification requesting you bring the vehicle into the dealer. But that's probably optimistic...
- skiing_crawling 4mo agoIts probably an antipattern on a car to need an OTA "safety" update in the first place.
- fc417fc802 4mo agoThe safety update is physically removing the modem IMO. Can't be wirelessly broken into if you aren't on the network to begin with.
- HDBaseT 4mo agoWhat type of fucking "safety" update could be performed? If the car has a recall or safety issue with the suspension part failing prematurely, what possibly could some software nonsense do?
- inahga 4mo agoTesla https://www.tesla.com/support/vehicle-firmware-prevent-autosteer-misuse https://www.tesla.com/support/vehicle-firmware-prevent-autos... Ford https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a70513450/ford-4-million-vehicle-trailer-brake-recall/ https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a70513450/ford-4-million-v... GM https://www.themanual.com/auto/gm-brake-fluid-warning-recall/ https://www.themanual.com/auto/gm-brake-fluid-warning-recall... I think Chrysler does it too, but I only find mention of the time they bricked a bunch of Wranglers with a bad OTA update. Broadly I don't think it's hard to imagine a software update being safety critical if the software is used in a safety critical system.
- lucisferre 4mo agoI have the same car and want to do this, but not for the reasons the author noted but because the GPS unit in the car is broken when paired with Carplay and has the wrong compass heading causing navigation to be completely useless. I have reported this to Toyota multiple times with videos detailing the problem and they have denied the problem and ultimately when faced with the evidence simply refused to fix it. I've been a big fan of Toyota's Production System and their management culture, but this experience has really diminished the brand for me. I realize these problems exist with all cars today. The pattern seems to be to foist low-quality hardware and software on their customers and take no responsibility for the results. Software bugs aren't what they consider a "typical car problem" so they simply don't fix them.
- bdamm 4mo agoSome brands take software very seriously. This isn't an "entire industry" problem. My experience is pretty small; I've owned the same Tesla Model 3 LR for the last 6.5 years, and the software has been pretty much solid the entire time. There was briefly a problem with echos when I called land lines using the bluetooth and my iPhone, but that problem eventually went away - not clear if it was because the iPhone changed, the software was updated, or perhaps the particular landline I was calling got an upgraded CO, but for a car that's a pretty good track record. There were some sensor glitches but they got fixed. I've test driven other cars. Lucid Air - tons of weird glitches. Rivian - almost as good as the Tesla, but laggy UI on a brand new car. My Tesla is almost seven years old and still smooth as the day it was new! How do they do it? Compass heading specifically does seem to be unusually challenging. Does anyone else recall the bizarre "Google Maps on iPhone is 90 deg off" problem? Totally strange.
- btbuildem 4mo agoThere's a fortune to be made for whomever produces a car that has minimal features, and and electric-drivetrain with onboard gasoline generator. No screens, knobs and buttons, no assists. Extra fortune if you can licence designs and revive some of the old-and-loved classics with new safety features.
- bdamm 4mo agoWell, Bollinger Motors tried just that, but they couldn't make it fly. However, you now have a chance to buy one of the rare prototypes! https://finance.yahoo.com/sectors/technology/articles/bollinger-motors-auction-fleet-electric-190025785.html https://finance.yahoo.com/sectors/technology/articles/bollin...
- Mathnerd314 4mo agoIt is probably like with smart TV's where the value of the telemetry data ends up subsidizing a significant fraction of the hardware. Car manufacturers seem to be doing a lot of experiments with what they can charge for in terms of ongoing subscriptions. I am sure if they could show ads without it being considered distracting they would.
- bobro 4mo agoI think the problem is there isn't a fortune there. It would be a successful endeavor, but not something to rake in huge piles of cash. The kinds of leaders and investors who could pull off what you're describing are instead working where they can make multi-millions rather that multi-hundreds of thousands.
- mdasen 4mo ago> electric-drivetrain with onboard gasoline generator Generally speaking, it's more efficient to power a car using a series-parallel hybrid system than an electric drivetrain with generator (series hybrid) while not really being any more complicated. In a series hybrid (electric with generator), you're losing energy converting the rotational energy into electric energy. It's better to use the engine's output to power the wheels while it's in an efficient range. It's why Toyota's series-parallel hybrid design offered better mileage than vehicles that (primarily or fully) operated as series hybrids like the Chevy Volt. > No screens You can't really sell a car without a screen due to government regulations which require backup cameras (since 2018 in North America, since 2022 in the EU and Japan). > no assists Automatic Emergency Braking is going to be required in the US in 2029 (detecting frontal crashes about to happen and automatically braking, including pedestrian detection). The EU requires even more including blind spot detection and lane-keeping assist. I certainly agree that cars need knobs and buttons for controls like AC/heat, music, etc. However, it'd be hard to make a car where you aren't putting in a screen and assistive technology. I think a better argument would be to make a car where the screen was simply Apple CarPlay/Android Auto and a backup camera - rather than shoving a lot of garbage UX into it.
- s3p 4mo agoI would like everyone to know that if you have a brand new Kia, the process is even easier. I spent $20 on the Kia service manual access (didn't even know that was a thing until I read OP's post) it finally figured it out. Modern Kias with the CCNC cockpit have a data connectivity unit that exclusively handles cellular. If you can get this unit unplugged, which only requires two Phillips head screws to remove, your set. It took me nearly 2 years to figure this out. Thanks OP
- HDBaseT 4mo agoAny clues on how to disable any telemetry on a Kia Stinger?
- s3p 4mo agoYes!! I still have access to all their service manuals for the next 48 hours. What's your year model and engine? I'll look it up.
- intrikate 4mo agoI am so sorry to piggyback on someone else's comment for this, but this thread has piqued my interest in what I can do to de-smart my 2021 Kia Forte LXS. Any chance you can get the service manual for it? I appreciate it, even if you can not.
- hedora 4mo agoIf you are considering purchasing a Kia, insist on getting a loaner or a 24 hour test drive. The active driver assistance features are criminally dangerous. Sadly, the current administration is more interested in illegally locking Kia’s engineers in cages than actually enforcing consumer protection or safety regulations. Anyway, avoid them and Hyundai. If you don’t believe me, drive in rush hour for 30 minutes and frequently change lanes. Be sure to be on the road at dusk and dawn to get the full experience, where glare confuses the onboard cameras, so regen braking flaps on and off, and it repeatedly overrides steering and sets of spurious cabin alarms. I’d suggest parking a few times at a costco during peak hours, but I don’t want to get anyone killed.
- cbdevidal 4mo agoI was looking into this with Teslas. Apparently the car will not be bricked if you cut the antenna wires. They are in the side mirrors (both sides) and the wires are exposed when you pull the interior door panels. If you then charge only at home you’re even more private than gas cars, which must stop at gas stations with cameras. But both types of vehicles are easily spotted with Flock cameras. And if you keep your phone on that tracks you, too. I’m not that paranoid so I won’t do it, I just wanted to know.
- left-struck 4mo ago>Gas stations with cameras. Everything has cameras these days. On my street almost every house has a cloud connected camera. Every major road has cameras, every store and business. Now I’m not suggesting we give up the fight for privacy but avoiding gas stations does nothing
- asdff 4mo agoDifference is most of those things you mention overwrite their data in a few days or weeks. Even doorbell cameras, no one's stuff is being stored indefinitely.
- HDBaseT 4mo agoHow do you know? Most of these are cloud connected, how do you know they aren't storing license plate information, or face data, or audio data for extended periods of time in the cloud?
- asdff 4mo agoNothing comes for free, so what's the profit angle to do this? Government is the obvious customer, but that would leave a papertrail too if such deals were worked out especially asking for perpetual storage until the heat death of the universe.
- 4mo ago
- ComplexSystems 4mo agoThe reason I think this is a bad idea is that it lulls you into a false sense of security. The article makes recommendations that seem thorough and sensible - keyword "seem" - but, as mentioned elsewhere here, there are other potential hidden sources of telemetry (in CarPlay and Android Auto), and who knows what else. For this kind of thing to succeed as a general lifestyle, you would need to invest an enormous amount of time making potentially irreversible modifications to all kinds of electronic equipment - only to be virtually guaranteed to miss something. Do this kind of thing if you want, but don't be fooled into thinking you're actually solving the problem for real.
- s3p 4mo agoIf you disconnect the modem, the car can't share any information by itself. In my opinion, that is a huge win.
- egorfine 4mo agoThere is no way to know for sure that this data is not collected somewhere inside the car and then uploaded at dealer's.
- mmooss 4mo agoI think you can substantially reduce the information collected about you, without an enormous amount of time. Security - and any solution - isn't about perfection; it's about improving the situation and making attacks more expensive. Every HN thread is accompanied by comments saying it's all hopeless.
- ComplexSystems 4mo agoSure, you can substantially reduce the information collected about you as long as you don't just give it away somewhere else instead.
- j0e1 4mo agoOpen-source car, please.
- ErroneousBosh 4mo agohttps://rangerovers.pub/downloads/rave.zip https://rangerovers.pub/downloads/rave.zip Can't do the design bits, but there's full service manuals for any 1990s to early 2000s Landrover. Only NAS models, unfortunately, so for some things in UK/EU you need to interpolate a little. Notice the complete absence of phone-home GSM modems or other tracking stuff?
- Brian_K_White 4mo agoI did it for my 2025 4runner. https://6thgen4runner.com/threads/disable-telematics-with-autoharnesshouse-ahh-dcm77.885/ https://6thgen4runner.com/threads/disable-telematics-with-au... DCM Bypass kit. https://www.autoharnesshouse.com/store/AHH-DCM77 https://www.autoharnesshouse.com/store/AHH-DCM77
- eigencoder 4mo ago> Important: Even after the modem is removed, if you connect your phone to the car via Bluetooth then the car will use your phone as an internet connection and send all the same telemetry data back to Toyota. How is this the case? I thought bluetooth was just sharing my phone's audio. Why would it allow requests over the internet? Surely there's a way to tell the phone not to give its internet connection to any connected bluetooth device?
- stuckindoors 4mo agoWhen reading the article I think he appears to be talking about car play/android auto connection not audio only connections. I think Bluetooth in AA and Carplay is used to configure a local network between the phone and the car to transmit the images to the cars screen. I would assume that that data capability can also be used for the car to communicate with the Internet.
- ezfe 4mo agoIt does produce a local Wi-Fi network but there's no evidence that it supports internet communication. That would be considered a hotspot, which not all carriers even support.
- rconti 4mo agoPlus it seems unlikely that the telematics module is even really related to the display screen stuff, let alone being configured to use alternate network connections to transmit data.
- dotancohen 4mo agoHow does the carrier know that the traffic is being proxied for another device, and not e.g. requested from the phone's web browser or another app? Does the phone add a proxy header? Can it be configured to not add the header?
- ywain 4mo ago
- surcap526 4mo ago[dead]
- alentred 4mo agoBuy Nissan instead, they will do that for you free of charge. I own 2021 Nissan Leaf and Nissan sent me an email early this year telling that the communication infrastructure costs too much for them and they are taking it down. Jokes aside, I am seriously pissed at Nissan because it was one of reasons I bought it in the first place: to pre-heat or pre-cool the car remotely before going to work, while it is still plugged to the wall charger. And they just decided to take it down. Funny thing, they even mentioned in the email that "not to worry, I can still use my AC when I am in the car". Wow. Sorry, rant. Anyway, my point being - buy Nissan Leaf, no connectivity guaranteed by the manufacturer, LOL.
- nathan_compton 4mo agoHow are you dealing with the chademo only charger thing?
- CarVac 4mo agoIf you buy a ChaDeMo Leaf you do so knowing that it will likely never go more than a hundred miles from home.
- alentred 4mo agoNot sure what you mean, maybe it depends on region. I am in EU and have Type 2 and CHAdeMO connectors. I only charge at home and travel to go to work and back, so barely ever use CHAdeMO. I agree, though, that I don't and wouldn't travel long distances with this car.
- mixermachine 4mo agoThat is crazy. 5 years and they are already shutting down the servers? They should be forced to open up the API when they shut it down. Running a replica yourself should be pretty doable.
- 866-RON-0-FEZ 4mo ago> to pre-heat or pre-cool the car remotely before going to work, while it is still plugged to the wall charger Modern aftermarket remote start systems work with both ICE and EVs alike. Take a look at Compustar. You can remote start your Leaf with a key fob from 1/2 mile away, no telemetry, connectivity, or silly app needed.
- freshnode 4mo agoWrites long article about the concerns of software phoning home Peppers article with Amazon affiliate links Perfect summation of 2026
- deleted 4mo ago[deleted]
- rbbydotdev 4mo ago> Strong Federal privacy laws would make posts like this unnecessary, that’s the world I’d rather live in. Amen.
- Fervicus 4mo agoWe need a Framework laptop equivalent for cars.
- boldlybold 4mo agoI've been saying this for years! I agree.
- mixmastamyk 4mo agoThe upcoming Slate is like that.
- hollow-moe 4mo agoCan't do that in Fr*nce and likely other European countries, all vehicles must have eCall and your vechicle might not pass the mandatory routine check you need to do once in a while to be allowed on the road. Hope you like biking a lot.
- oblio 4mo ago> Fr*nce What's this?
- Cider9986 4mo agoJust use public transit.. oh, wait, (https://reclaimthenet.org/the-eurail-breach-and-the-digital-id-problem https://reclaimthenet.org/the-eurail-breach-and-the-digital-...)
- deleted 4mo ago[deleted]
- djoldman 4mo agoTIL: > eCall was made mandatory in all new cars approved for manufacture within the European Union as of April 2018. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ECall https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ECall
- barrkel 4mo agoIt's one thing for something to be mandatory original equipment, it's another for them to be necessary for passing an inspection (MOT / roadworthiness certificates). It's not mandatory in many countries, AFAIK.
- Cider9986 4mo agoRelated: Can I disable all data collection from my vehicle? (rivian.com) 760 points 14 days ago 361 comments (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47967786 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47967786)
- lqstuart 4mo agoThis is really cool. One of my favorite parts of the internet is getting to see these kinds of projects by people who aren't afraid to tear into stuff and take it apart and put it back together. But you do all that for privacy... and then you use CarPlay?
- sunshine-o 4mo agoI love those type of posts. But there is probably gonna be an interesting discussion when he will get the car serviced at Toyota. Maybe a simpler way is to to slap a Faraday cage on all antennas.
- mistyvales 4mo agoI was debating replacing the head unit in my old VW, but I actually like that it has a six-disc CD changer, SD card slot (32GB max, with support for MP3, WAV, etc.), 40-pin iPod connection, and regular AUX in. I use my phone with a USB-C DAC and have never felt like I needed anything else. With AUX I can plug in my Walkmans as well (both cassette and MiniDisc)! Dangerous, but hilarious (Dubai raver has set up a 303 and 606 to make acid house while he drives): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mwYtjQk0QaU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mwYtjQk0QaU
- asdefghyk 4mo agoAbout removing the modem. .... I always though ...just need to remove the ... the antenna .. modem would always get no signal and transmissons would always fail.... Same for the GPS. To verify- no other hiddwen transmitters could use some RF( Radio Frequency) analyzers [RF analyzer (ie spectrum analyzer) is a tool for measuring the power, frequency, and signal strength of radio frequency signals.]
- dfee 4mo ago[meta] this response was clearly not from an LLM. i wonder what sorts of distinctive styles could be telltales going forward.
- rdiddly 4mo agoThanks - Seeing how easy this was, encouraged me to do the same for my Subaru. The info and parts were easy enough to find. Interestingly, Subaru itself used to make a DCM bypass kit for its cars. When AT&T shut down its 3G network, Subaru was stuck replacing all the DCMs, because they would search and search forever for a connection to a network that no longer existed, and slowly drain the battery. But there initially wasn't enough inventory to replace them all, so they offered these bypass kits if you weren't an active Starlink (cloud svcs) subscriber.
- sleepyguy 4mo agoThis is why I want a Chinese car. At least they won't do anything with my data.
- hughc 4mo agoprops for still using Skitch to annotate images in 2026
- DarkmSparks 4mo agoI'm still just refusing to buy this garbage in the first place. All these car manufacturers pushing this horrorshow deserve to go under. Tbh it looks like most will soon....
- HDBaseT 4mo agoAll the Chinese car manufactures are doing the same, they aren't likely to go under soon.
- hoppyhoppy2 4mo agoWhich car manufacturers are not pushing this garbage?
- RachelF 4mo agoWhy not just remove the antenna or SIM card from the modem?
- HDBaseT 4mo agoCars are now using eSIMs. Cutting an antenna wire only limits the effectiveness of the communication. You can wirelessly send and receive data with a solder terminal on a board if you're dedicated enough.
- ThinkingGuy 4mo agoI wonder if removing the antenna would possibly cause the modem to try to transmit at a higher power level, thus running the car's battery down.
- IFC_LLC 4mo agoI bet in a couple of years you'll have to go straight to the dealership to fix your car, because it won't start. On the other hand, as mentioned by others: Why bother if you use CarPlay?
- omgJustTest 4mo agoCould one cover the antenna with strategic foil? Removing seems hard/complicated but foil seems within most ppls reach.
- pugworthy 4mo agoAs much as I should really care about this, I have to say... I don't. I should, but I don't. To me it's a little bit like, "I love these new cellphones but I'm keeping it in airplane mode all the time because I don't want it online" I mean what's the point of buying a new car if you're going to cripple features that are so much better because it's connected? Sure, use CarPlay or such, but to say forever end things like over the air software updates? Anything to prevent Kia from theoretically detecting sexual activity I suppose [1]. Just buy an old car. Or convert a classic into an EV [2]. There are A LOT of things in our lives that can be completely torn apart if one wants to. Glass is a vastly inferior window covering. Do you know how easy it breaks, and people can just look into it. 1 If you ask me, there's a whole whitepaper to be written about how to detect sexual activity in a Kia. 2 https://www.bugeyeguys.com/category/electric-bugeye/ https://www.bugeyeguys.com/category/electric-bugeye/
- tonymet 4mo agoAny guesses at how large the addressable market is for a dumb car (or appliance)? I would be the target customer, but I keep making convenience concessions and buying the nice car / appliance with smart stuff. I appreciate this guide from a technical perspective, but despite a lot of the stated preferences, I’m not seeing a huge market for it. Convenience is paramount.
- ungreased0675 4mo agoIt’s pretty unhelpful to list off other ways one’s privacy could be compromised in response to efforts like this. Privacy isn’t all all or nothing binary choice. Taking measures to improve privacy are worthwhile, even if you don’t continue the journey to absolute anonymity.
- s3p 4mo agoExactly! I feel like a lot of people in these comments are saying privacy isn't achieved by doing this, and then move the goalposts to apple / google tracking you. I would love if we could just keep this about the scope of the car, and to that end I am so thankful of OP because after reading his article I was able to disable my car telemetry in 20 minutes. I've been wanting to do this for years but had no idea where to look. Spent hours on Google and couldn't get anywhere.
- codezero 4mo agoDoes anyone have any details on this claim? Important: Even after the modem is removed, if you connect your phone to the car via Bluetooth then the car will use your phone as an internet connection and send all the same telemetry data back to Toyota. However, if you use a wired USB connection then it does not do that (see the discussion here and elsewhere), so I exclusively use CarPlay via USB. I wish I had a way to completely disable the car’s Bluetooth functionality, but it’s deeply integrated into the head unit. How can data via Bluetooth be routed to an active internet connection? I assume this would only work if you have the manufacturer's car application installed on your phone. Following the thread linked to, the only thing I can find is very unsubstantiated; https://www.rav4world.com/threads/2019-rav4-dcm-deactivate-procedure.304339/ https://www.rav4world.com/threads/2019-rav4-dcm-deactivate-p... : One caveat, if you use bluetooth to connect your phone to the car DCM will use your phone to connect to the mother ship and presumably send your data. I only use my iPhone cable to connect to the car which does not have this effect. This sounds like pure speculation, and I would love to hear if there is any information that can substantiate what they are claiming.
- phire 4mo agoYeah, I'm a little suspicious about that claim. Bluetooth tethering is a thing, actually predates wifi tethering. Though it's not enabled unless you enable Personal Hotspot in your phone settings (and Android requires it to be enabled separately). CarPlay complicates things, as it only uses bluetooth to pair, then it switches to using a wifi network (as bluetooth doesn't have anywhere near enough bandwidth). Maybe Apple automatically shares internet over that carplay connection? I have no doubt that the car will use the internet connection if one is exposed, I just doubt it will be exposed automatically.
- trinsic2 4mo agoOne thing I notice is that it doesn't appear to upload contacts from your phone in usb mode. I haven't confirmed this.
- ruszki 4mo agoMy iPhone automatically shares the internet without enabling hotspot with my Toyota via Bluetooth. It happens automatically. I just start the car, and it happens. And CarPlay is not involved, since there is no such thing in my car.
- fuzzygaz 4mo agoBe careful as there has been precedence of insurance companies using the fact cameras were removed/disabled to deny or reduce claims.
- s3p 4mo agoYeah this would be different. Also let me tell you my approach so I disconnected my car's data connectivity unit and all that does is forward the signal from the cell antennas down to the main head unit. So by disconnecting it my car doesn't actually know that it cell service has been turned off it literally just thinks there is no signal right now.
- JoheyDev888 4mo agoYou buy a $40k car and it's still monetizing you. The hardware is just the entry fee. The real product is everything you do inside it.
- Riany 4mo agolosing SOS/cloud features is real cost, but so is having an always-on telemetry device in a thing you own. this should be a software setting and a clear privacy contract
- Creamsicle47 4mo agoLive free or die
- PinguTS 4mo agoBe careful messing with your (modern) car like this. It may work at first glance. In some time in the future you may not be able to unlock your car. As mentioned in the article as part of the introduction, there were problems with those car regarding security. Especially with the Rav4 where a colleague, Ken Tindell, showed a very serious flaw: https://kentindell.github.io/2023/04/03/can-injection/ https://kentindell.github.io/2023/04/03/can-injection/ Because of this OEMs build in more and more security, like SecOC with Autosar and other similar things. More and more of those security feature depend certificates in the devices that have an expiration time. Those certificates needs to be rotated regularly. If the rotation does not happen, because of missing communication with the mothership, then the security will fail, which finally will lock you out of your car. That will be true for all the coming luxury car models. IRC, Tesla has something like this for years in their cars. They can be offline for a certain period of time. But when this runs out, you will be out of luck.
- bobmcnamara 4mo agoIt's a Toyota - you already can't unlock it in heavy rain.
- benob 4mo agoDoes changing the date fix it?
- nicce 4mo agoNo. There are standards in EU and US that enforce these things. Changing time would be too trivial bypass and manufactures would have coensequences.
- bitparadox 4mo agoI have a few year old Volkswagen. I'm security conscious and made sure to disable all the data collection I could find in the companion app, turn off remote access services, dig through the infotainment to turn off what I could, etc. Last year I requested a Carfax on it, and one of the fields in the request was current mileage. I entered an estimate like 75000 miles. On form submission, that field failed validation with the red subtext along the lines of 'this is less than the last reported mileage of 75345, reported <5 or so days prior>'. Checking my odometer and looking at my past few days' trips, that was indeed accurate. The car hadn't been to a shop or out of my possession in weeks, so I can only assume the telemetry was still dialing home and selling to third parties despite my best efforts to disable it. Anecdotal and not unexpected in the grand scheme, but it still surprised me.
- is_true 4mo agoI think reporting mileage would be one of the only usages for data collection that is ok with me. In some countries there's a SCAM in which the owner or agency lowers the mileage of the car and sell it for much more because of the lower mileage.
- cwillu 4mo agoIt's hard to take any piece of text seriously when it contains all-caps'd emotionally charged words seemingly just to make sure we notice that they're there.
- is_true 4mo agoSORRY
- SoftTalker 4mo agoThis is harder on modern cars. Mechanical odometers were fairly easy to roll back, modern digital odometers are quite well protected.
- is_true 4mo ago
- hacker_mar 4mo ago[flagged]
- rootsudo 4mo agoI saw this on reddit and am contaplating purchasing a toyota and I would say you can code the modem out from the techstream 2 day rental. The grounding antenna thing is not required, but its an easy DIY tool and just interesting in general as I was making a "mod" list of what to do if I were to purchase. With the coding from techstram you can also modify the Denso Headunit programming to not do telemetrics via cellular bluetooth connection. You can also have block the connection on the phone if you run a custom DNS server.
- brnaftr361 4mo agoI have a 2018 WRX and I was considering removing the "telematics" module and updating the head unit to something more modern so I could use Android Auto but I was thinking that through and was immediately irked by the idea that I'd then be using google in lieu of Subaru. It's already bad enough as it is. Of course the head unit probably talks to and through the phone. I suppose the benefit would be that at least the new head unit would be anonymized but the use pattern would be obvious and explicitly correlated to me. Kinda makes me want to buy a standalone navigation system at this point. I don't even speed, I'm just sick of the idea of being watched always and forever.
- sigio 4mo agoWhile it would be nice, I think this would instantly write-off the car in UK and western europe, as various connected features not working on cars that came with them, or are 'new enough' to require them, cause mandatory yearly tests (MOT / APK(NL)) to fail, meaning you can't legally drive the car again until these are fixed and re-tested.
- MisterTea 4mo agoThere needs to be a repository of these instructions for as many vehicles as possible. I'd like to know how to do this for a 2022 CR-V.
- 1vuio0pswjnm7 4mo ago"They have always-on modems." Who pays for the cellular data plan "Important: Even after the modem is removed, if you connect your phone to the car via Bluetooth then the car will use your phone as an internet connection and send all the same telemetry data back to Toyota." Thats quite sneaky. On by default, no option to disable
- jonnycomputer 4mo agobut is it true?
- richstokes 4mo agoI wonder if you could repurpose the cars SIM card (eSIM or otherwise) / cellular modem for your own use? Like presumably the manufacturer is paying a data plan to a cell provider. If the connection is not locked down to specific traffic I wonder if it could be reused
- OptionOfT 4mo agoWhat about insurance pricing your car based on the security features it has (i.e. auto call on crash?). My car, a 2025, was significantly cheaper to insure in terms of liability than my 2019, even though it was 3x (not inflation adjusted) the price, because my current one is full of sensors and advanced evasion, auto-braking etc. Is it weird to think that the SoS functionality is ALSO priced in? And removal thereof could be problematic? Kinda like when people don't replace their TPMS sensors. What is insurance gonna say after you had a blow-out, and injured another person because of a flat. The TPMS sensor would've warned you before, and the incident could've been prevented... Now, apart from all of that, I'm very happy that I can disable all of the data that gets send to the cloud with the press of a button. Good old German privacy laws.
- jrnichols 4mo agoIt's been disappointing to see that Toyota, a brand I once trusted, has slipped into spyware/nagware like this. All for the purpose of later selling advertisements. Do we get a discount at the dealer for this "feature?" Of course not. In fact, we get a dealer markup that's often difficult to get rid of. No wonder car companies are starting to dislike CarPlay. It's less data they can collect from their own customers.