19 ms·

The new and upgraded Framework Laptop

1680 points by etbusch 4y ago

rjsw 4y ago
The ethernet expansion card looks good.
- nrp 4y ago
  This was by far our most popular Expansion Card request. We've actually been working on it since before launching the original Framework Laptop. It's just a non-trivial packaging challenge, especially to land 2.5Gbit support.
  - Terretta 4y ago
    > non-trivial… especially 2.5Gbit Elsewhere in this thread: nrp: “Unfortunately, Realtek is the one and only choice for a USB 3.1 to 2.5Gbit Ethernet controller. We don't like it any more than you do, but there are several niches in the PC peripheral space where there is no alternative to using a Realtek part.“
Oxodao 4y ago
There are "battery life improvement" will those be available to 1st gen Frameworks motherboard or is it hardware related ? And do anyone know if the bug in the HDMI card preventing it to go to sleep is still a thing / need a firmware update / is hopeless ?
- nrp 4y ago
  We have a firmware update in testing to improve shut down (S5) drain. For s0ix, we are investigating firmware paths to reduce power consumption. The card itself actually does go to into a low power state, but the USB4/TBT4 retimer stays in a higher power state. That is something we were able to fix in a combination of hardware and firmware on the new 12th Gen Intel Core systems for s0ix/Modern Standby. We're investigating paths to improve this that would work for 11th Gen as well, but nothing final yet.
  - ZeroCool2u 4y ago
    Congrats on the launch! FW is on my shortlist for my next laptop. Would you consider having someone on the team do a more in depth technical write-up of the work that went into the battery life optimization? I'd personally be very interested in reading that as a long time Linux laptop user.
baybal2 4y ago
Will Framework sell knockdown kits to assemblers?
rowanG077 4y ago
How are the thermals on these chips? 11th gen and prior was bad enough with basically all laptops having significant throttling issues. Is that fixed now on the 12th gen? I bought an XPS 13 last year and even with extensive modding and disabling turbo boost it still throttles the iGPU.
maz- 4y ago
Really happy to see this, although I must've bought one of the last Gen 11 Frameworks at full price (literally 2 days ago ).
- zeagle 4y ago
  I would contact them and ask them to adjust the price. You are within the return window and it is cheap goodwill.
helloworld653 4y ago
How many external 1080p60 monitors can this drive with the laptop open? 4?
- nrp 4y ago
  Yep, you can use up to four displays in total. That includes the internal display, so using four external monitors would mean turning off the internal one.
  - hprvzr 4y ago
    What are the limits for refresh rate and resolution? Also I assume DP/HDMI extension ports are done via USB-C, right? May direct connections to USB-C monitor help?
meibo 4y ago
GPUs please! Make it happen!
xchaotic 4y ago
I had a look and it looks like everything is upgraded- the chassis, the motherboard etc. So if you wanted to take advantage of all of the improvements you’d need to buy them all. At which point it might be less materially wasteful to but another, less recyclable laptop that uses fewer parts ?
- hojjat12000 4y ago
  You don't "NEED" to upgrade your chassis. Even if you do, it's just one piece out of the 3 pieces for your chassis. You'd be upgrading your motherboard and CPU. You can reuse your wifi, storage, ram, your expansion cards, your display, your speakers, your keyboard, your touchpad, your battery, powersupply, cables... That being said, you don't need to upgrade from 11th gen to 12th gen. Maybe in a few years when 11th gen isn't cutting it for you anymore you can upgrade to 15th gen. It's great that they provide a path for upgrading, but the more important thing here is having more recent hardware for someone who wants to buy a framework in 2022.
stakkur 4y ago
I like the concept of this laptop. I really want to like the laptop itself, enough to buy one. But for me, it always comes down to the experience of the user interface--the keyboard, trackpad, and screen. And that always brings me back to Macbooks and ThinkPads. I'm a Linux fan, but 'ability to run a specific OS' is not even in my top three must have features.
tofuahdude 4y ago
How do these intel chips standup against the current M1 lineup? I'd love to swap away from Apple to Framework but I gotta say, the current Pro M1 is pretty remarkable. Is intel in the same ballpark with the 12th gen?
nrp 4y ago
I'm happy to answer any questions around this! We've been working on this since update since we launched the product last year, so we're excited to be able to share it today.
- rocqua 4y ago
  I see there are only DDR4 options. Presumably if you bring your own memory, that also has to be DDR4. Why no DDR5?
  - nrp 4y ago
    When we started developing this product last year, we looked at price trends and performance data on DDR4 vs DDR5 and made the bet that DDR5 would have both price and availability issues in 2022. That has turned out to be the case, with DDR5 SO-DIMMs typically going for 50-70% over the equivalent DDR4 capacity, without delivering performance improvements to justify that premium. This is something that will improve in the future, and we'll continue to track this for future products.
    - dhc02 4y ago
      When I read this, I got really excited about a company having a well thought out, rational reason for a decision. And then I realized how sad that is.
      - legalcorrection 4y ago
        What makes you think that people at Dell or HP don’t sit around and think about those tradeoffs?
        syzygyhack 4y ago
        Well, there are, but the things considered acceptable tradeoffs (like price/performance) are pretty different.
        4y ago
angulardragon03 4y ago
Looks like 12th gen DIY edition is €60 more than the MSRP of the old model. Wonder if the price will come down further for the old model. EDIT: site was down while I was checking this, the 11th Gen DIY edition is €829, so €130 cheaper than 12th gen.
- nrp 4y ago
  We announced newly reduced pricing for the original 11th Gen Intel Core-based Framework Laptops. We've sold out of some SKUs and have limited numbers of the remaining ones, so that new reduced pricing is likely the final pricing until we run out of those.
  - angulardragon03 4y ago
    Interesting! I was looking at picking one up with my next pay check, so I’ll see what’s available. Thanks!
  - WrtCdEvrydy 4y ago
headsoup 4y ago
Nice. I noticed the 'Pre-order now' button for the 12th gen DIY edition goes to the configuration page for the normal edition. I was confused that all options had Windows installed... You can still get to the DIY configure page through Product Story -> Pre-Order Now.
- nrp 4y ago
  We are fixing this now! Edit: This is fixed now.
  - someguy5344523 4y ago
    Umm, right now, the pre-built page takes you to the diy page instead, even if you click on "Or check out pre-built options"
motiejus 4y ago
Any photos of how the ethernet expansion card will look like while plugged in? Looks like it's bigger than the expansion slot. I intend to keep it there permanently, which brings questions about durability, especially when carrying the laptop around.
- nrp 4y ago
  It is oversized, but robust enough to keep installed (I have been for the last few months dogfooding it). We'll add more photos of it installed to the product page for it before we open sales on it to make sure folks know what they are getting into before buying.
- rkagerer 4y ago
  As in, sticks out past the edge of the laptop?
- foodstances 4y ago
  https://frame.work/products/ethernet-expansion-card https://frame.work/products/ethernet-expansion-card
rgrmrts 4y ago
I would buy a 15/16” version of this in a heartbeat :) I really hope another chassis with a larger screen is in the cards for framework!
- bcrosby95 4y ago
  Yeah, my 13" laptop just died on me, and it was just too uncomfortable for me to risk buying another 13" laptop. The Ethernet port is a big bonus for me too. Oh wells.
- tomrod 4y ago
  I like the 13" but totally agree.
- jadbox 4y ago
  17" 4k please! (yes, I can do coding with that resolution at 120% scaling)
  - cowpig 4y ago
    Right now I'm using a 17" Dell Precision which is a brick of a laptop that weighs over 3.5kg and whose battery life can be measured in minutes as my primary work machine. I would buy a 17" framework to replace it in a heartbeat
- jillesvangurp 4y ago
  Hdpi, with a more sane aspect ratio and hdr that is suitable for graphics work would be high on my wish list. I actually like using Darktable. And I like using it on a good screen better. So even though I have a Linux laptop that runs Darktable very nicely (even with just Intel Xe graphics), I actually do a lot of photo editing on my 8 year old imac, which has a 5K screen, fantastic contrast & colors, etc. It shows me stuff my laptop is simply incapable of showing. Darktable runs like a dog on it but at least I can see what I'm doing properly and have enough screen real estate to actually fit the tools in the sidebar on the screen without having to scroll. I'd love to see Linux laptop that is optimal for graphics, movie editing, etc. Mediocre 1080p screens are simply not good enough anymore. Apple stopped shipping anything non hdpi years ago. Even the cheapest macbook air has a decent screen. Decent contrast, easy to calibrate, beautiful colors and excellent dynamic range. Probably best in class by any objective measure. Why can't Linux users get screens that good? It's not like Apple doesn't buy their parts from the same usual suspects in China and Korea when it comes to screens and other things you need to build a laptop.
filmgirlcw 4y ago
This is exciting! I’m very seriously looking at upgrading my mainboard and repurposing the 11th Gen I’ve got now into a DIY project! I’ve been VERY happy with my Framework and am glad to see this update.
tomrod 4y ago
I'm on an 11th gen and just ordered another one a week ago. Great daily driver!
- Sebb767 4y ago
  Same, I ordered just a few days ago! Pity, after waiting for so long, I should've just waited a few days longer and save 70€. Still, looking forward to finally having one :)
post_break 4y ago
Will board schematics be available for repairs? Something Louis has been asking for.
- nrp 4y ago
  We recently released the subset of schematics that we were able to. Louis did a recent video on this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8cJj8PUY0DU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8cJj8PUY0DU
  - post_break 4y ago
    When you say able to, do you mean a vendor is holding you back from releasing more? No problem if you can't answer. Sorry my question was for this new laptop, I did see you guys released the one for the previous one which is awesome.
    - varispeed 4y ago
      It's likely that the schematics cannot be copyrighted, which means once they are released anyone can spin up their own boards. You could probably see a flood of cheap Chinese motherboards or entire laptop knock offs.
      - post_break 4y ago
        If that were the case we'd see macbook motherboards, since Louis is able to get entire board schematics.
        varispeed 4y ago
        I don't think what Louis has are full schematics. You could probably reverse engineer board view into a schematic, but from what I saw in his videos there was a lot of missing information - but enough to conduct a repair. That being said - even if Apple has released a full schematic, without datasheets for the parts made specifically for Apple, you wouldn't get an idea of operation of certain bits, so it could be difficult to replace these with off the shelf components.
coldtea 4y ago
>We continue to focus on solid Linux support, and we’re happy to share that Fedora 36 works fantastically well out of the box, with full hardware functionality including WiFi and fingerprint reader support. Ubuntu 22.04 also works great after applying a couple of workarounds, and we’re working to eliminate that need. This disclaimer -from a company that picks their hw components none the less- is cold water to Linux in the desktop as any sort of "solved" problem
- noirbot 4y ago
  To be fair to them, _desktop_ Linux is a fair bit easier than laptop Linux. Laptops have many of the components that have been the most neglected/hardest to work with - wifi cards, bluetooth, trackpads, fingerprint readers... All all the worse because there's often less or no choice of provider for the components. For the most part, on a full desktop, you can avoid most of the need for those, or buy a part that works better.
- anon_123g987 4y ago
  There's no such operating system as "Linux". I don't know what these "workarounds" are exactly, but if it's something like installing a driver for a fingerprint reader that's present in a standard Fedora distro, but not in a vanilla Ubuntu then I don't see the problem. Of course it won't work out of the box.
  - nrp 4y ago
    We're exploring if there is any other workaround, but it is likely that until a 22.04 point release goes out with a new kernel, it will require installing a newer kernel from Ubuntu's kernel PPA to make suspend work properly.
- DeathArrow 4y ago
  I'm wondering what's the battery life and power usage under Linux. For many laptops this is a problem.
  - jakamau 4y ago
yuters 4y ago
I'm still waiting for more keyboards option on a DIY kit in North America. Seems like a waste for a modular laptop that you can't order one with no keyboard. You have to buy a separate keyboard in the marketplace and throw away the english one.
- skywal_l 4y ago
  I would like to see a 75 keyboard like the HP Envy 13 x360 with a bar of keys with Home/PageUp/PageDown/End.
5- 4y ago
congrats on the update! framework is a great laptop with macbook-like chassis. all that's needed to make me and a vocal minority happy is an alternative thinkpad-like chassis.
- Markoff 4y ago
  more like 7 row thinkpad keyboard for starters
justin66 4y ago
> We’ve redesigned our lid assembly for significantly improved rigidity They should make this part available to existing users as a warranty replacement. It sounds like they've addressed a common complaint on their support forums. The lid that flops over because of the hinge's weakness, and the absurd excuses made by company personnel (they claim it was designed this way "to accommodate opening the laptop with one hand," as if the people who open a laptop with one hand do not need the lid to stay upright) has been a great disappointment for me with this laptop. It is a design defect, not a feature, for the hinge to be this weak. edit: apparently they're talking about this, so I guess we're stuck with the weak hinge: https://frame.work/products/top-cover-cnc https://frame.work/products/top-cover-cnc
- nrp 4y ago
  If the lid drops when the laptop is stationary, the hinge is out of spec and we'll send you a replacement through our support channel.
  - theferalrobot 4y ago
    What if our replacement hinges are dropping when stationary too?
  - justin66 4y ago
    I'll look into that. Thanks!
    - ncallaway 4y ago
      As feedback, I had the same problem that you had. I reached out to support, they had me send in a video, agreed that the hinge was out of spec and mailed me a new one. I installed the new hinge, and it’s more rigid. I no longer have the problem of the laptop falling open when typing on my lap. Highly recommend contacting support for the hinge issue if you have it to.
- coder543 4y ago
  My framework laptop had no issues with the hinge whatsoever. It honestly might have been a little too stiff for my tastes, but it functioned perfectly, and the screen never budged without me moving it intentionally. (Past tense is because I recently sold it as I was using my M1 MBA way more often, mainly due to how long the framework laptop took to come out of sleep mode by comparison. This isn't really a slight against Framework... Apple just did an unreasonably good job with M1 in some areas.) I would not say the hinge issues have been a "common" complaint. They've been the most common complaint that I've seen on Reddit, but still rare, especially once you factor in that people usually only go online to complain, and anyone with the hinge issue isn't going to hesitate, since it would be understandably annoying.
agomez314 4y ago
Exciting stuff! Great job, y'all. Any chance RISC-V architectures will be on a Framework Laptop one day?
- seanw444 4y ago
  Hopefully after AMD finally comes out. That would be awesome. A truly open system.
alkaloid 4y ago
I believe so much in this project -- I was an early adopter but couldn't figure out a use case for the laptop, so have been lurking, waiting on sweeter and sweeter upgrades . . . this may fit the bill!
nagisa 4y ago
Could you elaborate on why realtek was chosen for the ethernet expansion card? It does tend to have a pretty bad rep, with one of the recent documentations being https://overengineer.dev/blog/2021/04/25/usb-c-hub-madness.html https://overengineer.dev/blog/2021/04/25/usb-c-hub-madness.h...
- nrp 4y ago
  Unfortunately, Realtek is the one and only choice for a USB 3.1 to 2.5Gbit Ethernet controller. We don't like it any more than you do, but there are several niches in the PC peripheral space where there is no alternative to using a Realtek part.
  - mrpippy 4y ago
    How about Aquantia?
    - nrp 4y ago
      As far as we can tell, Marvell end of lifed the USB to Ethernet solutions. If anyone from Marvell can tell us otherwise, we'd like to know!
  - nfriedly 4y ago
    What about a Thunderbolt connection and a PCIe ethernet adapter - could that work?
    - kieranl 4y ago
      The power consumption of this would be too high.
      - Sebb767 4y ago
        And the cost, probably. 40$ for 2.5Gbit is not that bad of an offering; at 80$, this would probably be even more niche.
jmakov 4y ago
Ryzen?
corderop 4y ago
I'm pretty excited about this Intel P chips of the 12th generation. It's seems they are going to be a good competitor for M1 for the Linux world. At least, benchmarks show good numbers, we'll see.
neurostimulant 4y ago
The Ethernet Expansion Card seems to be using USB type C connector. Can it works on non Framework computers? Also, anyone has recommendation for great affordable router with 2.5 gigabit ethernet ports for home lab setup? I've been searching for one but it seems only gaming routers include these ports. I prefer something more enterprisy (lots of options to tinker with like mikrotik or pfsense), but those usually don't come with 2.5 gigabit ethernet ports, instead they (the affordable ones) have plenty of 1 gigabit ethernet ports and a single sfp+ port. Or should I bite the bullet and go full sfp+ for home lab setup?
- nrp 4y ago
  Yep! It will work as a normal USB-C Ethernet adapter, but due to the form factor, there is risk that you can apply an excessive amount of torque to a normal USB-C receptacle if the Ethernet cable gets pulled.
  - pedrocr 4y ago
    It doesn't seem like a great option compared to a normal USB-C or A ethernet dongle because of that. Those are slim enough that they're basically a continuation of the ethernet cable and as a benefit also unplug when yanked. This one doesn't even fit within the normal adapter form factor of the framework.
paskozdilar 4y ago
Do Frameworks laptop work without proprietary software/firmware/whateverware? If you can run a 100% free software GNU/Linux distribution such as Trisquel on Framework laptops, that would be a definite buy for me.
- qboltz 4y ago
  They do, I run GNU Guix but you have to buy a wifi card that's free software compatible, which must be bought somewhere else. https://www.thinkpenguin.com/gnu-linux/wireless-n-dual-band-m2-ngff-combo-card-tpe-m2ncrd https://www.thinkpenguin.com/gnu-linux/wireless-n-dual-band-...
varispeed 4y ago
When there a new laptop release with an Intel CPU, the topic of fans is rarely talked. How is the Framework doing when it comes to heat? I decided that I will no longer buy a laptop that whirls fans whenever you do something more resource intensive or even simply open an app. I have fairly modern XPS 15 and the fan noise is just unbearable. It puts me off coming near the laptop. So it looks like I'll have to bite the bullet and buy M1/M2 if there is going to be a way to run Linux reliably.
intsunny 4y ago
I'd really wish for an AMD motherboard. The new AMD chips with the RDNA2 is a Linux user's dream. The open source support is incredible.
- cyber_kinetist 4y ago
  I thought that the latest Alder Lake CPUs pretty much catched up with AMD in terms of general performance nowadays. And Intel's iGPU support was rock solid even before AMD.
  - cosmiccatnap 4y ago
    Not really no. The power draw and heat on these chips are nearly 3x the AMD variant.
  - fyrn- 4y ago
    Th IGPU is substantially better in the new RDNA2 chips, also power draw.
thrownaway561 4y ago
why am going to pay $1100 for an i5/8gb/265ssd when I can pay $700 for a i5/12gb/1tbHDD. This whole thing reminds me of the PANDA project from early 2000s and you all know how well that project worked out. Laptop are throw aways. At the end of their life you recycle them and get a new one. The single problem I see with all these type of total upgradable devices is that you are still locked into a single vendor. Unless other vendors get onboard and you have competition, you are at the mercy of the single vendor's pricing and existence. How good is an upgradeable laptop when the vendor goes out of business and you can't buy parts? https://frame.work/products/laptop-12-gen-intel/configuration/edit https://frame.work/products/laptop-12-gen-intel/configuratio... https://www.costco.com/hp-17.3%22-laptop---11th-intel-core-i5--1155g7---1080p---windows-11.product.100793908.html https://www.costco.com/hp-17.3%22-laptop---11th-intel-core-i...
- coldpie 4y ago
  > Laptop are throw aways. At the end of their life you recycle them and get a new one. The single problem I see with all these type of total upgradable devices is that you are still locked into a single vendor. How good is an upgradeable laptop when the vendor goes out of business and you can't buy parts? I agree with your skepticism. But, I don't agree that it has to be this way. Framework is giving another model a chance, and yeah, it may fail. But Frameworks are no /more/ disposable than any other laptop, so I guess I don't see a downside to at least giving it a shot if it's at an acceptable price and has a desirable feature set. You're right that the commodity hardware is cheaper, but I guess I can live with paying a bit more to try something else out and support an alternate model.
- bl4ckneon 4y ago
  Well first off the laptop you linked is an 11th gen cpu vs the frame work which just upgraded to a 12 gen. The framework isn't an amazing value dollar for dollar, spec for spec. That is not why you buy one though... Is all about the upgradability, the open source aspect, sustainability, etc. Good luck if you want to open your Lenovo laptop and want to get it warrentyed for anything.
- kitsunesoba 4y ago
  Having used a laptop similar to that linked HP in past and now comparing spec sheets, I don’t really think it’s in the same class as the framework laptop at all. Compared to the framework, the HP’s: - CPU is a generation behind - Screen has low PPI (less sharp), very low brightness, and is probably a TN panel, meaning colors will be more dull - HDD which is a lot slower than an SSD anyway is 5400RPM, which is slow even for an HDD - Battery is 14Wh smaller - Webcam is 720p instead of 1080p - Bluetooth and wifi is a whole major version behind - Charging port is one of those old terrible barrel jacks that gets loose quickly And the build quality is most assuredly not in the same universe. Laptops as cheap as this HP are built on razor thin margins, which means that manufacturers are cutting costs wherever possible. This gets you things like creaky flexy cases, loose wobbly hinges, chintzy keyboards, bad trackpads, and oddball bargain basement components with less than amazing performance. In short it will be a lot less pleasant to use, even ignoring that huge gaps in the spec sheet. Models from other manufacturers that would be more comparable to the framework in specs and fit and finish are the M1 MacBook Air/Pro, Dell XPS 13, and Lenovo ThinkPad X1 Carbon.
sryie 4y ago
I recently received my first framework laptop after being a loyal Thinkpad user for years. I am loving it so far. I run Ubuntu 22.04 daily and have not had any issues with battery life or the lid (but I do typically leave it plugged in during lunch and overnight). The expansion cards are brilliant and the keyboard is comparable to my old t-series. The aspect ratio is great for coding and I'm happy to see upgradeability is being taken seriously as promised. If I can get 5-10 years out of it like my old ThinkPads (all while upgrading piecewise along the way) I will be a fan for life.
- Goronmon 4y ago
  I recently received my first framework laptop after being a loyal Thinkpad user for years. I get excited about different laptops occasionally...and then I remember that I won't have a trackpoint if I switch to a different brand, and I get disappointed. Literally happens every few months.
  - riedel 4y ago
    I am posting the same thing every time framework pops up on HN. I hope the nudging will do it's work eventually. Meanwhile I am wondering why there aren't many third party mods for the framework around. Would it be feasible to design a trackpoint keyboard (if you figure out how to put it in the profile) ? Does it connect via USB or alike internally?
  - pbhjpbhj 4y ago
    Won't fix one child-comment on quality, but is there a TP keyboard that would physically fit the hole in the framework. A physical shim would be easy easier; I'm assuming (possibly wrongly) that they connect via an internal USB connection?
  - pauke 4y ago
    Business class Dells and HPs have one too. Named differently because TM but good enough.
    - cooperadymas 4y ago
CalRobert 4y ago
Thank you for making an upgrade kit! Very happy with the Framework I bought 2 months ago but seeing options like this - https://frame.work/gb/en/products/12-gen-intel-upgrade-kit https://frame.work/gb/en/products/12-gen-intel-upgrade-kit - is nice.
- noveltyaccount 4y ago
  This is so amazing. If I had a 10th or 11th gen i7 laptop, no way I'd rush out and buy a new laptop for two or three grand. But a new mainboard for $600? Yeah, that's an annual upgrade train I can get on!
  - Sebb767 4y ago
    Given that one of their stated targets is sustainability, this sounds like Jevons paradox [0]. This might be averted a bit, though, if you reuse the old mainboards for things like a homeserver. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jevons_paradox https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jevons_paradox
    - f1refly 4y ago
      You can also sell them to people who don't need the latest and greatest and are happy to buy a still more than adequate used machine part
      - Sebb767 4y ago
        They'd still need a framework chassis, so this market is probably a tad smaller (either they are late upgraders or something broke). But yes, this works, too.
Pasorrijer 4y ago
Any plans for discrete graphics?
- pc2g4d 4y ago
  I came here wondering the same thing. I guess I could just get the eGPU I've tossed around for a while?
pizza234 4y ago
Alder Lake is still not fully supported by Linux (improvements are coming with v5.18¹, which is not stable yet, and it will take a while to be released into several linux distros (at least the Ubuntu based)). It's a shame, because it would have been a great moment to offer an AMD alternative. ¹=https://www.tomshardware.com/uk/news/intel-thread-director-coming-to-linux-5-18 https://www.tomshardware.com/uk/news/intel-thread-director-c...
- ripley12 4y ago
  Things are fine on Linux even without Thread Director support. I've been running Fedora 36 (kernel v5.17) on a 12900K for a few months now without any noticeable issues.
  - pizza234 4y ago
    According to the article above, Linux pre-5.18 will mostly choose P(erformance) cores. On a desktop context, this may go unnoticed (so, in your cases like yours, it's not a problem at all), however, in a laptop, it will make the CPU inefficient, defeating the point of the Alder Lake design.
- howinteresting 4y ago
  Think most distros have backported the Alder Lake patches to their kernels.
- smoldesu 4y ago
  Alder Lake works just fine on Linux, it's only Thread Director which is missing. Not that these machines would really even need it, the current CPU prioritization code seems to work surprisingly well.
jai_ 4y ago
Does anyone know if the Framework team plan to offer an ARM based mainboard? I'm honestly not even sure that there are any good ARM based SoCs to make a laptop mainboard from, but given what we've seen from Apple's development of their iPhone chips being integrated into laptop and desktop, I wonder if something similar could be done with other existing ARM CPUs from Samsung or Nvidia?
- wmf 4y ago
  I doubt they'll offer ARM, but the RK3588 is designed for laptops and not embarrassingly slow (about 3x the performance of an RPi 4).
  - CameronNemo 4y ago
    The mt8192 is faster than the rk3588 and already shipping in Chromebooks. Plenty of activity on the linux-mediatek mailing list to mainline support for the currently shipping Chromebooks. mt8195 Chromebooks should appear soon too, and they are even faster than the mt8192. Mainlining activity is also occurring for this SoC.
- CameronNemo 4y ago
  Do any ARM SoCs support USB4 (apart from Apple Silicon)? IIRC that is the main reason they cited for not shipping AMD boards.
- jarbus 4y ago
  I'm also interested in this, mainly for the battery life improvements.
noveltyaccount 4y ago
Framework team, I know you hang out here... I'd love a touchscreen+stylus digitizer model with 360° hinge. My Lenovo yoga need a replacement!
- freemint 4y ago
  Digitizers are really expensive. I am not sure if Framework is big enough to handle this. Just buy a snall wacom tablet and put it next to the laptop that also works.
  - noveltyaccount 4y ago
    That is definitely not the same thing as being able to reach up & touch the display, or flip the display 360 degrees into "tablet mode" :) Maybe I'm a minority in liking a laptop to be able to do those kinds of things.
    - freemint 4y ago
      I own a L380 Yoga. Exactly because of this experience i can tell you Framework can't make this yet.
BirAdam 4y ago
Why oh why does every decent laptop have a 1080p screen? Apparently, if I want something other than 1080p I either buy a MacBook and pay the Apple Tax, or I buy something overpriced and often terrible in every other way?
- Terretta 4y ago
  > I either buy a MacBook and pay the Apple Tax, or I buy something overpriced and often terrible in every other way? So it’s not really a tax then, it’s a quality cost.
- 30944836 4y ago
  Because Linux's support for HiDPI (specifically, fractional scaling) is limited.
- jwcooper 4y ago
  This laptop has a 2256x1504 screen. The webcam is 1080p.
- nrp 4y ago
  The Framework Laptop's display is 2256x1504.
cebert 4y ago
I’m excited about Framework Laptops but am holding out for them to release and AMD-based model. I have no interest in supporting Intel.
klaas- 4y ago
Any news about lvfs support from framework?
- moderation 4y ago
  Haven't been able to find anything beyond his Jan 6 2022 tweet [0]. No response in the forums for this question [1] from 4 days ago. Frustrating to not be able to upgrade BIOS for Linux users without resorting to Windows or replacing boot loaders 0. https://twitter.com/FrameworkPuter/status/1479137228349575171 https://twitter.com/FrameworkPuter/status/147913722834957517... 1. https://community.frame.work/t/lvfs-3-07-bios-availability/15866/5 https://community.frame.work/t/lvfs-3-07-bios-availability/1...
  - kieranl 4y ago
    We have LVFS updates in lvfs testing but there is a bios capsule update bug that wipes the boot entries on update. Feedback from 3.07 was that some distros fail to boot after the update because they do not put a efi loader in the fallback path of the ESP partition. So we are hesitant to enable LVFS on 11th gen due to this issue. The code that handles this runs from the previous bios, so we cannot fix this in the capsule. We do offer a EFI update which you can use without booting into windows. https://knowledgebase.frame.work/en_us/framework-laptop-bios-releases-S1dMQt6F https://knowledgebase.frame.work/en_us/framework-laptop-bios...
canuckintime 4y ago
I'm waiting on alternate screen options. The 3K2K OLED screen on the HP Specter X360[1] would be a great highend option for me. Framework is suggesting many customisable options but the wifi antenna is behind the screen so it's not a seamless transition. I would be interested in a screenless framework (with keyboard or just the guts) if they simplify wifi. So a WiFi module or Cellular module would be a definite buy [1] https://www.theverge.com/22264792/hp-spectre-x360-14-laptop-stylus-oled-review-price-specs-features https://www.theverge.com/22264792/hp-spectre-x360-14-laptop-...
- seltzered_ 4y ago
  I'm waiting for a tablet design. I use a 3k2k lcd touchscreen on the HP Elite X2 tablet and while it's a more repairable design compared to a MacBook or surface, would love something with a bit more modularity to add a larger battery or modify the casing (see https://www.reddit.com/r/ErgoMobileComputers/comments/tcwep0/raised_tablet_setup_weight_comparison/ https://www.reddit.com/r/ErgoMobileComputers/comments/tcwep0... )
Decabytes 4y ago
I hope that if Framework continues to be successful they can start dictating more changes to the manufacturers of the components to make the components easier to integrate into the laptop design. For example, a standard size for Mobos so that makes it easier to integrate AMD/Intel processors
4ggr0 4y ago
I'm now waiting for over a year for this laptop to be available in my country. Would still really like to order one, but my patience is running out, don't have a laptop currently. EDIT: I sound very pissed off. I know that it's hard to ship to lots of countries, it's just frustrating for me to not even have an estimation. Will I be able to buy it in 3 or 6 months? Or does it take another year? no idea.
- leodriesch 4y ago
  If you're fine with import tax and an American keyboard, there are services [0] that provide you with an American address and send any packets that arrive there to you via international shipping. [0]: https://www.myus.com/ https://www.myus.com/
  - 4ggr0 4y ago
    I even want an US-Layout, so that's fine. Wouldn't even have to buy it from the US. Framework sells their laptops in Germany, which is right next to me. But that means that I have to ship the laptop back to Germany for warranty-related stuff etc.
  - hda2 4y ago
    > If you're fine with import tax and an American keyboard I never understood this. Why don't companies offer international keyboards in their online american store? It should be especially easy for framework to do this since they already customize their offers/sell kits.
- hda2 4y ago
  Facing the same problem. When I first read about this laptop, I immediately jumped to preorder it but found that they aren't sold to people like me. The same happened again when I read this article. Your comment reminded me why I still have one. The thing is that I'm also starting to reconsider buying one now. I know they're small and barely able to keep up with their local markets, but competitors are starting to notice. I as a non-american would much rather buy from a international competitor who doesn't treat me like a lesser citizen if they can match Framework's level of openness and modularity. Once I buy into their ecosystem, I doubt I'll reconsider framework again. I imagine a significant portion of framework's underserved international market in this position. I truly wish all the success to the framework team. I just hope, for their sake, that they manage to address international demand before they lose it to their competitors.
petilon 4y ago
Still no retina display option. Steve Jobs made the right call over a decade ago... the only scaling that looks good after 100% is 200%. Any in-between scaling will have display artifacts. This laptop has 150% scaling. What sort of display artifacts can you expect because of this? Go to a web page with a grid, with 1-pixel horizontal grid lines. Even though all lines are set to 1-pixel, some lines will appear thicker than others. I blame Microsoft for this mess. Windows supports in-between resolutions (with display artifacts), and hardware manufacturers therefore manufacture in-between resolutions. Framework laptop is limited to what the display manufacturers put out.
- ProAm 4y ago
  It also doesn't have a touchbar and has an excessive amount of ports!
  - whycombagator 4y ago
    Just like the new MBPs!
  - Rebelgecko 4y ago
    Framework laptop actual has fewer ports than MBPs (although they're configurable which is neat, with the caveat that some like expansion ports HDMI are a big drain on battery life, even when inactive)
    - asoneth 4y ago
      The HDMI drain surprised me, so I looked up more information, and you seem to be correct: https://www.reddit.com/r/framework/comments/tekihq/expansion_cards_battery_live_testing/ https://www.reddit.com/r/framework/comments/tekihq/expansion... https://community.frame.work/t/battery-life/861/24 https://community.frame.work/t/battery-life/861/24
      - ProAm 4y ago
        That is odd, I wonder if its polling for connection?
zanethomas 4y ago
my next laptop!
thebiglebrewski 4y ago
Super excited about this launch today! Come work with us on the Rails monolith that powers https://frame.work/ https://frame.work/ if you're stoked too - we're hiring a Senior Full Stack Engineer: https://jobs.lever.co/framework/1d6559b2-ccf9-4391-bded-63034cf0ab22 https://jobs.lever.co/framework/1d6559b2-ccf9-4391-bded-6303... Lots of exciting projects coming up as we expand the Marketplace around the world and have more big launches on the horizon. Fully remote, and having every other Friday off is a nice benefit :)
silencedogood3 4y ago
If I wait six more months to buy will they have a really solid linux story?
silencedogood3 4y ago
Does anyone know if this would be difficult to connect to a second monitor?
bitwize 4y ago
Love the shoutouts to the recent Framework Mainboard cyberdeck projects. Framework is clearly right out in front in terms of hacker community goodwill. Keep it up, guys -- push it further. With enough clout, as an OEM you might be able to push back against Intel on things like ME, and make our hardware even more freedom-respecting.
nerdjon 4y ago
it is exciting to see an upgradeable laptop actually be upgradable. But I have to wonder what the market for this is? The primary use case I see for something like this is a gaming laptop, which this is just nowhere near being suitable for. Outside of that use case, for the vast majority of compute workloads is being able to upgrade really a need? I have 2 laptops (well technically 3 but I don't count my work one really). A gaming laptop and my Mac as my primary computer outside of gaming. I tend to upgrade my Mac maybe... 4 or 5 years. Maybe even more than that. My Mac I got in 2019 and feel no need to upgrade anything in it. My gaming laptop on the other hand... If I had the ability to upgrade that I would likely upgrade parts every year or 2... like a good a gaming desktop. What am I missing here outside of the excitement of an upgradeable laptop? I don't want to diminish the work on that, I am just unclear the use.
- victor9000 4y ago
  A few weeks ago I spilled an entire cup of sugary espresso on my framework laptop which completely ruined my keyboard by making it a sticky mess. You know what I did? I ordered a replacement keyboard kit for $99, installed it in ~5 minutes, and I haven't thought about it since. Some other part will fail in the future, or I'll spill another cup of coffee, and when that happens all I need to worry about is swapping out the affected parts. And that's great compared to my previous alternatives with an XPS, which was basically to buy a brand new laptop.
  - torginus 4y ago
    Can't you do the same thing with a Thinkpad?
    - Eduard 4y ago
      (Putting aside that Thinkpad is a specific brand, whereas keyboard replacability is generally device-specific) Framework keyboard replacement guide: https://guides.frame.work/Guide/Keyboard+Replacement+Guide/83 https://guides.frame.work/Guide/Keyboard+Replacement+Guide/8... ThinkPad T470s keyboard replacement guide: https://support.lenovo.com/de/en/solutions/pd104683-removal-and-installation-steps-for-keyboard-thinkpad-t470s https://support.lenovo.com/de/en/solutions/pd104683-removal-... That Thinkpad model's keyboard replacement steps look way easier than Framework's.
mixmastamyk 4y ago
Looks like they didn’t change the screen resolution or size, There is a person here always complaining about it and might have a point. Believe content has to be scaled 1.5x which is problematic.
jandrese 4y ago
Yay! They finally offer an Ethernet card so I don't have to use flaky piece of crap Realtek based USB Ethernet adapters. (Reads the specs) Shit!
loufe 4y ago
I'm looking at getting a new portable device at the end of the year as my nearly 11 year old Y580 IdeaPad continues to fall apart. I feel like it's between Framework and an iPad pro. It's a little dumb but the amount of content I watch on the thing is high, and having an OLED screen is important to me, it changes the game visually. I would happily drop $2500 CAD on a framework if an OLED screen became available but I sincerely doubt it is something easy for them to source. That said, having a physicaly Canadian French keyboard is a huge plus, thanks Frame.Work. Oh well, choices to be made.
cosmiccatnap 4y ago
Sad to see still no 15/16 inch variant, amd edition, or choice of black shell. That being said I'm glad to see they are following through on the things they promise like upgradable cores. In theory I take it this means if you currently have a framework laptop you can just buy the compute core and upgrade.
conradev 4y ago
It is awesome that Framework is so extensible – I would love to see either an integrated 5G modem, or a 5G expansion card. The latter is tricky because of antennas…
doyougnu 4y ago
I recently bought a framework laptop for a daily driver when I'm not on my desktop. For context I was running NixOS on an old 2014 macbook air, and I work on the glasgow haskell compiler in my day job so I do a lot of CPU heavy tasks. I've got to say, as long as these things are being produced I'll never go back. They are just too good and I cannot recommend them highly enough. One of the things that didn't occur to me before I bought it was that _because_ of the modular design I can switch the side the power port is on. That may not seem like much but it was a revelation the first time I sat on the couch and thought "huh I really wish this was over on that side....wait a minute!". I've also had absolutely no problems with NixOS on my machine, even my apple earbuds easily connect via bluetooth, something that I never quite got working on my macbook. 10/10 This is damn close to my dream laptop and I'm excited a new version is on the way.
- emiller88 4y ago
  FYI, we've added support for the framework to nixos-hardware. I appreciate any feedback or improvements anyone has! https://github.com/NixOS/nixos-hardware/blob/master/framework/default.nix https://github.com/NixOS/nixos-hardware/blob/master/framewor...
  - fuzzybear3965 4y ago
    Thank you!!!
  - benevol 4y ago
    Will you guys ever produce a "wide screen" version of your laptop? If so, you have another customer.
    - sennight 4y ago
      Obviously manufacturers haven't been eradicating useful screen ratios for no reason, I've just never seen anyone publicly admit to being the cause. Would you also like to take the blame for glossy screens, chicklet keyboards, and non-replaceable batteries?
gadflyinyoureye 4y ago
Please make your forums have a link to the actual site.
jameshart 4y ago
Ohhhhh that's why there was a spate of projects posted last week about building computers based on framework mainboards - submarine marketing for this framework upgrade launch. Figured it was framework behind it somehow, but the fact that it's to promote the 'here are some ways to use your old mainboard once you upgrade' angle makes a ton of sense.
- natosaichek 4y ago
  Yeah - whenever somebody makes a good thing and people use it in cool ways, that's submarine marketing for that thing.
  - jameshart 4y ago
    Sure, it's entirely a coincidence that both https://github.com/brickbots/framedeck/ https://github.com/brickbots/framedeck/ and https://github.com/penk/MainboardTerminal https://github.com/penk/MainboardTerminal published 10 days ago, and they're both referenced in this framework announcement. Convenient for Framework that those two projects came out right before their upgrade launch! But I don't just have my own innate cynicism to go on here! The framedeck project write-up actually contains this disclosure: As they were preparing this documentation release, they emailed me to see if I'd be interested in a collaboration of sorts. They would provide one of their laptops and some additional modules for me to build something unique with the only condition being that I released the designs for public use. Which is fine! This is earned media - Framework got some people to make and open source some cool designs. I wasn't sure, last week, why they were doing that now in particular. Now I know why they're pushing that angle, and it makes sense. Goodness, people are touchy.
    - smoldesu 4y ago
      Maybe it's because they only recently released the motherboard as an individually purchasable component?
      - jameshart 4y ago
deepsun 4y ago
Used it for half a year. All works awesome, but I don't know how to update firmwares on my Linux Mint/Ubuntu. There are some guidelines on website, but they don't seem official, and say something like "you may need to fix your bootloader after" which sounds scary that I'll break my perfectly working system.
- unnouinceput 4y ago
  "The system" is on your hard, yes? Who's stopping you to buy another one for testing and swap them out? This way you preserve your perfect working system AND get to play with your desires on the other one. IMO framework laptop is made specifically to tinker with as much as possible in the end.
spullara 4y ago
Can I reassign the ctrl and fn keys? I don't use Fn and it is super annoying that it is where it is.
- digisign 4y ago
  If not you can almost always swap with Caps lock via software. That should slowly break the dependence on the corner key.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
Macha 4y ago
This isn't "run out and buy" level (that would be 15", AMD 5000 or Intel 12th gen with a dgpu), but it's probably enough to be my next laptop unless something drastic changes in the market by then.
pocholo 4y ago
codezero 4y ago
I got my framework laptop a little over a week ago and I'm pretty happy with it, but seeing such a huge performance boost is frustrating a little, that said, I bought it to support/encourage the company, so I guess it's working :P
- julianbuse 4y ago
  well, it is upgradeable...
  - codezero 4y ago
    Didn't expect to need to upgrade the mainboard so quickly :) I prefer to wait for them to have an AMD option before changing out the mainboard.
ripvanwinkle 4y ago
just waiting for a 15inch version to come out. Any ideas when that might happen
SemanticStrengh 4y ago
When will you support a 2K (ideally) (or 4K) OLED panel? I'm a software developer and I'm not going back to the blurry text era and the non-contrasting movie/games era. Also come on you need thunderbolt support, egpu is a key advantage in 2022. So I appreciate the concept but currently you are not enough for my needs.
pmlnr 4y ago
Please, please, please make s keyboard option that has full size arrow keys, dedicated pgup, pgdown, del, ins, home, end. The current laptop keyboards, apart from thinkpads, are a joke for those who want to work on them, the framework, sadly, is included. I'd also love a trackpoint with 3 dedicated buttons but I'll keep dreaming.
- kristianp 4y ago
  I agree about the separate Home, End PgUp, PgDn keys. Still mad at Apple for influencing the removal of these from all laptop keyboards! It's one big reason that I have a Thinkpad, even though their keys aren't as good as a Surface's or Mac's.
  - hda2 4y ago
    Same situation here. When I bought my last laptop, a thinkpad, the main deciding factor was keyboard keys. In their reckless pursuit of apple and their loaded customers, Laptop makers failed to appreciate how important key layout is to retaining their existing customers. Fortunately, framework (or any third-party) is in a position to offer keyboards with alternate key layouts :)
- archon810 4y ago
  100% this and given the target demographic, I can't believe I had to scroll so much until I found the keyboard called out.
cyanydeez 4y ago
When we gonna get AMD
baka367 4y ago
I am staying in a 2017 laptop waiting for framework to become available in the wider world. Really hope to hear about would wide availability as soon as possible
causality0 4y ago
I'm definitely a fan of the Framework, but I'm not a customer yet. They just don't differentiate enough for me yet. Perhaps in the future they'll branch out a little bit more by offering things like a touchpad with real buttons, a non-chiclet keyboard, a USB module that combines multiple type-A ports and a microsd reader on the same module, etc.
seanp2k2 4y ago
Love the Framework idea, but I just upgraded my desktop from a 5950x to a 12900KS and I had to go from a 280mm AIO to a 420mm AIO just to keep it from thermal throttling. These 12th-gen Intel chips put out A LOT of heat. I hope that they offer an AMD version with one of the upcoming Zen4 mobile APUs. The Intel integrated graphics continue to underperform, especially compared to the Ryzen APUs.
ElijahLynn 4y ago
I like the marketplace idea and hope they can offer a ThinkPad keyboard with a touchstick/trackpoint. See https://community.frame.work/t/any-chance-of-trackpoint/1026/46 https://community.frame.work/t/any-chance-of-trackpoint/1026... if this is you too.
- andreareina 4y ago
  Just having different keyboard options would be clutch, the non-inverted-T arrow keys is one of the few things I find to be really flawed.
plaguepilled 4y ago
'We're not taking orders in your country' COOL THANKS!
- kristianp 4y ago
  Once I get to the checkout and address stage, the only country that can be selected is USA. I think they should let you know well before you have to create an account that this is the case.
- jmprspret 4y ago
  Yep. (Still...).
kristianp 4y ago
On a tangent about the 12th gen i5s, does anyone understand why the cheaper SKUs remove the E cores and not reduce the number of P cores? I suppose Intel intends that power efficiency (battery life) should be a premium feature now.
- nani8ot 4y ago
  That's because Intel uses the E/P cores differently ARM chips usually try to use E cores primarily for saving battery, so they only use P cores when performance is necessary. But Intel uses E cores to allow for higher multi core performance while staying in their power budget and the available die space. i5s get the same amount of P cores as i7s, so their general application performance is pretty similar. But then if they compile/render something the many small E cores make the CPU faster without melting the system down... The thermals are also why Intel 11th [1] gen had a maximum of 8 cores, while Intel 10th [2] gen had a maximum of 10. AMD pushed forward with their up to 16 cores and because of how good their performance per watt is, they could cool them. Intel noticed with 10th gen that they couldn't achieve high enough clock speeds with so many cores. [1] https://ark.intel.com/content/www/us/en/ark/products/series/202984/11th-generation-intel-core-i9-processors.html https://ark.intel.com/content/www/us/en/ark/products/series/... [2] https://ark.intel.com/content/www/us/en/ark/products/series/195735/10th-generation-intel-core-i9-processors.html https://ark.intel.com/content/www/us/en/ark/products/series/...
walrus01 4y ago
I really, really wish they would not use realtek for gigabit Ethernet and would an Intel chipset NIC instead.
dr_soong 4y ago
Any plans on adding a touchscreen option in the future ? I almost bought one earlier this year but really wanted a convertible. So I bought the new X13 yoga gen2 instead, which I am quite happy with for now (works well with Ubuntu). I use it rarely in tablet mode though and could probably live without this feature but I absolutely love having a touchscreen on my notebook.
goodguyamerikan 4y ago
I know I'm getting ahead of myself and there's a lot of work on this space but please consider something similar for phones too
laerus 4y ago
2 years warranty, no AMD alternative, Windows preinstalled, sadly I'm not sold yet. Maybe I'll go with System76 this time.
Smithalicious 4y ago
Any plans to sell a full laptop kit minus mainboard? I have a Framework with the 11th Gen CPU (that I love very much) and I like that there is an upgrade path to the 12th gen CPU, but afaict that would leave me with an 11th gen mainboard that I can't turn into a second laptop easily and would be hard to sell for the same reason.
- hollerith 4y ago
  People put the mainboard in a 3-d-printed case (the plans for which are given away by Frame.work) to make a tiny desktop computer (like a NUC), so a mainboard would sell.
- bacheaul 4y ago
  Considering you'd like to buy both a complete laptop minus the main board (to put your existing main board in), and a main board (to upgrade your existing 11th gen), I'm sure there's a solution we can find here...
  - Smithalicious 4y ago
    Ah, yeah, a little bit of creative thinking gets you quite far with this issue! Thanks :-)
Abishek_Muthian 4y ago
Looks like Framework is ready to take over the role of the compute unit from Raspberry Pi/Jetson for cyber decks[1] thanks to the separate availability of the mainboard and its modularity. It's also priced reasonably and so I might be able to get it to India without selling my kidney which is not possible with fully-built laptops due to import restrictions i.e. If Framework ever decide to ship to the country. [1] https://community.frame.work/t/introducing-the-new-and-upgraded-framework-laptop/18646#reduce-reuse-recycle-5 https://community.frame.work/t/introducing-the-new-and-upgra...
mickotron 4y ago
Please allow order from Australia.
GekkePrutser 4y ago
Huh it feels like that thing only just came out... I had no idea it was already out a full year. I wonder if it also offers FreeBSD support.. That would be amazing. Though it's probably a long shot especially for the alder lake version.
ejjpi 4y ago
Glad to see the upgraded version, I hope they'll open ordering in Italy soon!

1680 points by etbusch 4y ago

rjsw 4y ago

The ethernet expansion card looks good.

nrp 4y ago
This was by far our most popular Expansion Card request. We've actually been working on it since before launching the original Framework Laptop. It's just a non-trivial packaging challenge, especially to land 2.5Gbit support.
- Terretta 4y ago
  > non-trivial… especially 2.5Gbit Elsewhere in this thread: nrp: “Unfortunately, Realtek is the one and only choice for a USB 3.1 to 2.5Gbit Ethernet controller. We don't like it any more than you do, but there are several niches in the PC peripheral space where there is no alternative to using a Realtek part.“

Oxodao 4y ago

There are "battery life improvement" will those be available to 1st gen Frameworks motherboard or is it hardware related ? And do anyone know if the bug in the HDMI card preventing it to go to sleep is still a thing / need a firmware update / is hopeless ?

nrp 4y ago
We have a firmware update in testing to improve shut down (S5) drain. For s0ix, we are investigating firmware paths to reduce power consumption. The card itself actually does go to into a low power state, but the USB4/TBT4 retimer stays in a higher power state. That is something we were able to fix in a combination of hardware and firmware on the new 12th Gen Intel Core systems for s0ix/Modern Standby. We're investigating paths to improve this that would work for 11th Gen as well, but nothing final yet.
- ZeroCool2u 4y ago
  Congrats on the launch! FW is on my shortlist for my next laptop. Would you consider having someone on the team do a more in depth technical write-up of the work that went into the battery life optimization? I'd personally be very interested in reading that as a long time Linux laptop user.

baybal2 4y ago

Will Framework sell knockdown kits to assemblers?

rowanG077 4y ago

How are the thermals on these chips? 11th gen and prior was bad enough with basically all laptops having significant throttling issues. Is that fixed now on the 12th gen? I bought an XPS 13 last year and even with extensive modding and disabling turbo boost it still throttles the iGPU.

maz- 4y ago

Really happy to see this, although I must've bought one of the last Gen 11 Frameworks at full price (literally 2 days ago ).

zeagle 4y ago
I would contact them and ask them to adjust the price. You are within the return window and it is cheap goodwill.

helloworld653 4y ago

How many external 1080p60 monitors can this drive with the laptop open? 4?

nrp 4y ago
Yep, you can use up to four displays in total. That includes the internal display, so using four external monitors would mean turning off the internal one.
- hprvzr 4y ago
  What are the limits for refresh rate and resolution? Also I assume DP/HDMI extension ports are done via USB-C, right? May direct connections to USB-C monitor help?

meibo 4y ago

GPUs please! Make it happen!

xchaotic 4y ago

I had a look and it looks like everything is upgraded- the chassis, the motherboard etc. So if you wanted to take advantage of all of the improvements you’d need to buy them all. At which point it might be less materially wasteful to but another, less recyclable laptop that uses fewer parts ?

hojjat12000 4y ago
You don't "NEED" to upgrade your chassis. Even if you do, it's just one piece out of the 3 pieces for your chassis. You'd be upgrading your motherboard and CPU. You can reuse your wifi, storage, ram, your expansion cards, your display, your speakers, your keyboard, your touchpad, your battery, powersupply, cables... That being said, you don't need to upgrade from 11th gen to 12th gen. Maybe in a few years when 11th gen isn't cutting it for you anymore you can upgrade to 15th gen. It's great that they provide a path for upgrading, but the more important thing here is having more recent hardware for someone who wants to buy a framework in 2022.

stakkur 4y ago

I like the concept of this laptop. I really want to like the laptop itself, enough to buy one. But for me, it always comes down to the experience of the user interface--the keyboard, trackpad, and screen. And that always brings me back to Macbooks and ThinkPads. I'm a Linux fan, but 'ability to run a specific OS' is not even in my top three must have features.

tofuahdude 4y ago

How do these intel chips standup against the current M1 lineup? I'd love to swap away from Apple to Framework but I gotta say, the current Pro M1 is pretty remarkable. Is intel in the same ballpark with the 12th gen?

nrp 4y ago

I'm happy to answer any questions around this! We've been working on this since update since we launched the product last year, so we're excited to be able to share it today.

rocqua 4y ago
I see there are only DDR4 options. Presumably if you bring your own memory, that also has to be DDR4. Why no DDR5?
- nrp 4y ago
  When we started developing this product last year, we looked at price trends and performance data on DDR4 vs DDR5 and made the bet that DDR5 would have both price and availability issues in 2022. That has turned out to be the case, with DDR5 SO-DIMMs typically going for 50-70% over the equivalent DDR4 capacity, without delivering performance improvements to justify that premium. This is something that will improve in the future, and we'll continue to track this for future products.
  - dhc02 4y ago
    When I read this, I got really excited about a company having a well thought out, rational reason for a decision. And then I realized how sad that is.
    - legalcorrection 4y ago
      What makes you think that people at Dell or HP don’t sit around and think about those tradeoffs?
      - syzygyhack 4y ago
        Well, there are, but the things considered acceptable tradeoffs (like price/performance) are pretty different.
      - 4y ago

angulardragon03 4y ago

Looks like 12th gen DIY edition is €60 more than the MSRP of the old model. Wonder if the price will come down further for the old model. EDIT: site was down while I was checking this, the 11th Gen DIY edition is €829, so €130 cheaper than 12th gen.

nrp 4y ago
We announced newly reduced pricing for the original 11th Gen Intel Core-based Framework Laptops. We've sold out of some SKUs and have limited numbers of the remaining ones, so that new reduced pricing is likely the final pricing until we run out of those.
- angulardragon03 4y ago
  Interesting! I was looking at picking one up with my next pay check, so I’ll see what’s available. Thanks!
- WrtCdEvrydy 4y ago

headsoup 4y ago

Nice. I noticed the 'Pre-order now' button for the 12th gen DIY edition goes to the configuration page for the normal edition. I was confused that all options had Windows installed... You can still get to the DIY configure page through Product Story -> Pre-Order Now.

nrp 4y ago
We are fixing this now! Edit: This is fixed now.
- someguy5344523 4y ago
  Umm, right now, the pre-built page takes you to the diy page instead, even if you click on "Or check out pre-built options"

motiejus 4y ago

Any photos of how the ethernet expansion card will look like while plugged in? Looks like it's bigger than the expansion slot. I intend to keep it there permanently, which brings questions about durability, especially when carrying the laptop around.

nrp 4y ago
It is oversized, but robust enough to keep installed (I have been for the last few months dogfooding it). We'll add more photos of it installed to the product page for it before we open sales on it to make sure folks know what they are getting into before buying.
rkagerer 4y ago
As in, sticks out past the edge of the laptop?
foodstances 4y ago
https://frame.work/products/ethernet-expansion-card https://frame.work/products/ethernet-expansion-card

rgrmrts 4y ago

I would buy a 15/16” version of this in a heartbeat :) I really hope another chassis with a larger screen is in the cards for framework!

bcrosby95 4y ago
Yeah, my 13" laptop just died on me, and it was just too uncomfortable for me to risk buying another 13" laptop. The Ethernet port is a big bonus for me too. Oh wells.
tomrod 4y ago
I like the 13" but totally agree.
jadbox 4y ago
17" 4k please! (yes, I can do coding with that resolution at 120% scaling)
- cowpig 4y ago
  Right now I'm using a 17" Dell Precision which is a brick of a laptop that weighs over 3.5kg and whose battery life can be measured in minutes as my primary work machine. I would buy a 17" framework to replace it in a heartbeat
jillesvangurp 4y ago
Hdpi, with a more sane aspect ratio and hdr that is suitable for graphics work would be high on my wish list. I actually like using Darktable. And I like using it on a good screen better. So even though I have a Linux laptop that runs Darktable very nicely (even with just Intel Xe graphics), I actually do a lot of photo editing on my 8 year old imac, which has a 5K screen, fantastic contrast & colors, etc. It shows me stuff my laptop is simply incapable of showing. Darktable runs like a dog on it but at least I can see what I'm doing properly and have enough screen real estate to actually fit the tools in the sidebar on the screen without having to scroll. I'd love to see Linux laptop that is optimal for graphics, movie editing, etc. Mediocre 1080p screens are simply not good enough anymore. Apple stopped shipping anything non hdpi years ago. Even the cheapest macbook air has a decent screen. Decent contrast, easy to calibrate, beautiful colors and excellent dynamic range. Probably best in class by any objective measure. Why can't Linux users get screens that good? It's not like Apple doesn't buy their parts from the same usual suspects in China and Korea when it comes to screens and other things you need to build a laptop.

filmgirlcw 4y ago

This is exciting! I’m very seriously looking at upgrading my mainboard and repurposing the 11th Gen I’ve got now into a DIY project! I’ve been VERY happy with my Framework and am glad to see this update.

tomrod 4y ago

I'm on an 11th gen and just ordered another one a week ago. Great daily driver!

Sebb767 4y ago
Same, I ordered just a few days ago! Pity, after waiting for so long, I should've just waited a few days longer and save 70€. Still, looking forward to finally having one :)

post_break 4y ago

Will board schematics be available for repairs? Something Louis has been asking for.

nrp 4y ago
We recently released the subset of schematics that we were able to. Louis did a recent video on this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8cJj8PUY0DU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8cJj8PUY0DU
- post_break 4y ago
  When you say able to, do you mean a vendor is holding you back from releasing more? No problem if you can't answer. Sorry my question was for this new laptop, I did see you guys released the one for the previous one which is awesome.
  - varispeed 4y ago
    It's likely that the schematics cannot be copyrighted, which means once they are released anyone can spin up their own boards. You could probably see a flood of cheap Chinese motherboards or entire laptop knock offs.
    - post_break 4y ago
      If that were the case we'd see macbook motherboards, since Louis is able to get entire board schematics.
      - varispeed 4y ago
        I don't think what Louis has are full schematics. You could probably reverse engineer board view into a schematic, but from what I saw in his videos there was a lot of missing information - but enough to conduct a repair. That being said - even if Apple has released a full schematic, without datasheets for the parts made specifically for Apple, you wouldn't get an idea of operation of certain bits, so it could be difficult to replace these with off the shelf components.

coldtea 4y ago

>We continue to focus on solid Linux support, and we’re happy to share that Fedora 36 works fantastically well out of the box, with full hardware functionality including WiFi and fingerprint reader support. Ubuntu 22.04 also works great after applying a couple of workarounds, and we’re working to eliminate that need. This disclaimer -from a company that picks their hw components none the less- is cold water to Linux in the desktop as any sort of "solved" problem

noirbot 4y ago
To be fair to them, _desktop_ Linux is a fair bit easier than laptop Linux. Laptops have many of the components that have been the most neglected/hardest to work with - wifi cards, bluetooth, trackpads, fingerprint readers... All all the worse because there's often less or no choice of provider for the components. For the most part, on a full desktop, you can avoid most of the need for those, or buy a part that works better.
anon_123g987 4y ago
There's no such operating system as "Linux". I don't know what these "workarounds" are exactly, but if it's something like installing a driver for a fingerprint reader that's present in a standard Fedora distro, but not in a vanilla Ubuntu then I don't see the problem. Of course it won't work out of the box.
- nrp 4y ago
  We're exploring if there is any other workaround, but it is likely that until a 22.04 point release goes out with a new kernel, it will require installing a newer kernel from Ubuntu's kernel PPA to make suspend work properly.
DeathArrow 4y ago
I'm wondering what's the battery life and power usage under Linux. For many laptops this is a problem.
- jakamau 4y ago

yuters 4y ago

I'm still waiting for more keyboards option on a DIY kit in North America. Seems like a waste for a modular laptop that you can't order one with no keyboard. You have to buy a separate keyboard in the marketplace and throw away the english one.

skywal_l 4y ago
I would like to see a 75 keyboard like the HP Envy 13 x360 with a bar of keys with Home/PageUp/PageDown/End.

5- 4y ago

congrats on the update! framework is a great laptop with macbook-like chassis. all that's needed to make me and a vocal minority happy is an alternative thinkpad-like chassis.

Markoff 4y ago
more like 7 row thinkpad keyboard for starters

justin66 4y ago

> We’ve redesigned our lid assembly for significantly improved rigidity They should make this part available to existing users as a warranty replacement. It sounds like they've addressed a common complaint on their support forums. The lid that flops over because of the hinge's weakness, and the absurd excuses made by company personnel (they claim it was designed this way "to accommodate opening the laptop with one hand," as if the people who open a laptop with one hand do not need the lid to stay upright) has been a great disappointment for me with this laptop. It is a design defect, not a feature, for the hinge to be this weak. edit: apparently they're talking about this, so I guess we're stuck with the weak hinge: https://frame.work/products/top-cover-cnc https://frame.work/products/top-cover-cnc

nrp 4y ago
If the lid drops when the laptop is stationary, the hinge is out of spec and we'll send you a replacement through our support channel.
- theferalrobot 4y ago
  What if our replacement hinges are dropping when stationary too?
- justin66 4y ago
  I'll look into that. Thanks!
  - ncallaway 4y ago
    As feedback, I had the same problem that you had. I reached out to support, they had me send in a video, agreed that the hinge was out of spec and mailed me a new one. I installed the new hinge, and it’s more rigid. I no longer have the problem of the laptop falling open when typing on my lap. Highly recommend contacting support for the hinge issue if you have it to.
coder543 4y ago
My framework laptop had no issues with the hinge whatsoever. It honestly might have been a little too stiff for my tastes, but it functioned perfectly, and the screen never budged without me moving it intentionally. (Past tense is because I recently sold it as I was using my M1 MBA way more often, mainly due to how long the framework laptop took to come out of sleep mode by comparison. This isn't really a slight against Framework... Apple just did an unreasonably good job with M1 in some areas.) I would not say the hinge issues have been a "common" complaint. They've been the most common complaint that I've seen on Reddit, but still rare, especially once you factor in that people usually only go online to complain, and anyone with the hinge issue isn't going to hesitate, since it would be understandably annoying.

agomez314 4y ago

Exciting stuff! Great job, y'all. Any chance RISC-V architectures will be on a Framework Laptop one day?

seanw444 4y ago
Hopefully after AMD finally comes out. That would be awesome. A truly open system.

alkaloid 4y ago

I believe so much in this project -- I was an early adopter but couldn't figure out a use case for the laptop, so have been lurking, waiting on sweeter and sweeter upgrades . . . this may fit the bill!

nagisa 4y ago

Could you elaborate on why realtek was chosen for the ethernet expansion card? It does tend to have a pretty bad rep, with one of the recent documentations being https://overengineer.dev/blog/2021/04/25/usb-c-hub-madness.html https://overengineer.dev/blog/2021/04/25/usb-c-hub-madness.h...

nrp 4y ago
Unfortunately, Realtek is the one and only choice for a USB 3.1 to 2.5Gbit Ethernet controller. We don't like it any more than you do, but there are several niches in the PC peripheral space where there is no alternative to using a Realtek part.
- mrpippy 4y ago
  How about Aquantia?
  - nrp 4y ago
    As far as we can tell, Marvell end of lifed the USB to Ethernet solutions. If anyone from Marvell can tell us otherwise, we'd like to know!
- nfriedly 4y ago
  What about a Thunderbolt connection and a PCIe ethernet adapter - could that work?
  - kieranl 4y ago
    The power consumption of this would be too high.
    - Sebb767 4y ago
      And the cost, probably. 40$ for 2.5Gbit is not that bad of an offering; at 80$, this would probably be even more niche.

jmakov 4y ago

Ryzen?

corderop 4y ago

I'm pretty excited about this Intel P chips of the 12th generation. It's seems they are going to be a good competitor for M1 for the Linux world. At least, benchmarks show good numbers, we'll see.

neurostimulant 4y ago

The Ethernet Expansion Card seems to be using USB type C connector. Can it works on non Framework computers? Also, anyone has recommendation for great affordable router with 2.5 gigabit ethernet ports for home lab setup? I've been searching for one but it seems only gaming routers include these ports. I prefer something more enterprisy (lots of options to tinker with like mikrotik or pfsense), but those usually don't come with 2.5 gigabit ethernet ports, instead they (the affordable ones) have plenty of 1 gigabit ethernet ports and a single sfp+ port. Or should I bite the bullet and go full sfp+ for home lab setup?

nrp 4y ago
Yep! It will work as a normal USB-C Ethernet adapter, but due to the form factor, there is risk that you can apply an excessive amount of torque to a normal USB-C receptacle if the Ethernet cable gets pulled.
- pedrocr 4y ago
  It doesn't seem like a great option compared to a normal USB-C or A ethernet dongle because of that. Those are slim enough that they're basically a continuation of the ethernet cable and as a benefit also unplug when yanked. This one doesn't even fit within the normal adapter form factor of the framework.

paskozdilar 4y ago

Do Frameworks laptop work without proprietary software/firmware/whateverware? If you can run a 100% free software GNU/Linux distribution such as Trisquel on Framework laptops, that would be a definite buy for me.

qboltz 4y ago
They do, I run GNU Guix but you have to buy a wifi card that's free software compatible, which must be bought somewhere else. https://www.thinkpenguin.com/gnu-linux/wireless-n-dual-band-m2-ngff-combo-card-tpe-m2ncrd https://www.thinkpenguin.com/gnu-linux/wireless-n-dual-band-...

varispeed 4y ago

When there a new laptop release with an Intel CPU, the topic of fans is rarely talked. How is the Framework doing when it comes to heat? I decided that I will no longer buy a laptop that whirls fans whenever you do something more resource intensive or even simply open an app. I have fairly modern XPS 15 and the fan noise is just unbearable. It puts me off coming near the laptop. So it looks like I'll have to bite the bullet and buy M1/M2 if there is going to be a way to run Linux reliably.

intsunny 4y ago

I'd really wish for an AMD motherboard. The new AMD chips with the RDNA2 is a Linux user's dream. The open source support is incredible.

cyber_kinetist 4y ago
I thought that the latest Alder Lake CPUs pretty much catched up with AMD in terms of general performance nowadays. And Intel's iGPU support was rock solid even before AMD.
- cosmiccatnap 4y ago
  Not really no. The power draw and heat on these chips are nearly 3x the AMD variant.
- fyrn- 4y ago
  Th IGPU is substantially better in the new RDNA2 chips, also power draw.

thrownaway561 4y ago

why am going to pay $1100 for an i5/8gb/265ssd when I can pay $700 for a i5/12gb/1tbHDD. This whole thing reminds me of the PANDA project from early 2000s and you all know how well that project worked out. Laptop are throw aways. At the end of their life you recycle them and get a new one. The single problem I see with all these type of total upgradable devices is that you are still locked into a single vendor. Unless other vendors get onboard and you have competition, you are at the mercy of the single vendor's pricing and existence. How good is an upgradeable laptop when the vendor goes out of business and you can't buy parts? https://frame.work/products/laptop-12-gen-intel/configuration/edit https://frame.work/products/laptop-12-gen-intel/configuratio... https://www.costco.com/hp-17.3%22-laptop---11th-intel-core-i5--1155g7---1080p---windows-11.product.100793908.html https://www.costco.com/hp-17.3%22-laptop---11th-intel-core-i...

coldpie 4y ago
> Laptop are throw aways. At the end of their life you recycle them and get a new one. The single problem I see with all these type of total upgradable devices is that you are still locked into a single vendor. How good is an upgradeable laptop when the vendor goes out of business and you can't buy parts? I agree with your skepticism. But, I don't agree that it has to be this way. Framework is giving another model a chance, and yeah, it may fail. But Frameworks are no /more/ disposable than any other laptop, so I guess I don't see a downside to at least giving it a shot if it's at an acceptable price and has a desirable feature set. You're right that the commodity hardware is cheaper, but I guess I can live with paying a bit more to try something else out and support an alternate model.
bl4ckneon 4y ago
Well first off the laptop you linked is an 11th gen cpu vs the frame work which just upgraded to a 12 gen. The framework isn't an amazing value dollar for dollar, spec for spec. That is not why you buy one though... Is all about the upgradability, the open source aspect, sustainability, etc. Good luck if you want to open your Lenovo laptop and want to get it warrentyed for anything.
kitsunesoba 4y ago
Having used a laptop similar to that linked HP in past and now comparing spec sheets, I don’t really think it’s in the same class as the framework laptop at all. Compared to the framework, the HP’s: - CPU is a generation behind - Screen has low PPI (less sharp), very low brightness, and is probably a TN panel, meaning colors will be more dull - HDD which is a lot slower than an SSD anyway is 5400RPM, which is slow even for an HDD - Battery is 14Wh smaller - Webcam is 720p instead of 1080p - Bluetooth and wifi is a whole major version behind - Charging port is one of those old terrible barrel jacks that gets loose quickly And the build quality is most assuredly not in the same universe. Laptops as cheap as this HP are built on razor thin margins, which means that manufacturers are cutting costs wherever possible. This gets you things like creaky flexy cases, loose wobbly hinges, chintzy keyboards, bad trackpads, and oddball bargain basement components with less than amazing performance. In short it will be a lot less pleasant to use, even ignoring that huge gaps in the spec sheet. Models from other manufacturers that would be more comparable to the framework in specs and fit and finish are the M1 MacBook Air/Pro, Dell XPS 13, and Lenovo ThinkPad X1 Carbon.

sryie 4y ago

I recently received my first framework laptop after being a loyal Thinkpad user for years. I am loving it so far. I run Ubuntu 22.04 daily and have not had any issues with battery life or the lid (but I do typically leave it plugged in during lunch and overnight). The expansion cards are brilliant and the keyboard is comparable to my old t-series. The aspect ratio is great for coding and I'm happy to see upgradeability is being taken seriously as promised. If I can get 5-10 years out of it like my old ThinkPads (all while upgrading piecewise along the way) I will be a fan for life.

Goronmon 4y ago
I recently received my first framework laptop after being a loyal Thinkpad user for years. I get excited about different laptops occasionally...and then I remember that I won't have a trackpoint if I switch to a different brand, and I get disappointed. Literally happens every few months.
- riedel 4y ago
  I am posting the same thing every time framework pops up on HN. I hope the nudging will do it's work eventually. Meanwhile I am wondering why there aren't many third party mods for the framework around. Would it be feasible to design a trackpoint keyboard (if you figure out how to put it in the profile) ? Does it connect via USB or alike internally?
- pbhjpbhj 4y ago
  Won't fix one child-comment on quality, but is there a TP keyboard that would physically fit the hole in the framework. A physical shim would be easy easier; I'm assuming (possibly wrongly) that they connect via an internal USB connection?
- pauke 4y ago
  Business class Dells and HPs have one too. Named differently because TM but good enough.
  - cooperadymas 4y ago

CalRobert 4y ago

Thank you for making an upgrade kit! Very happy with the Framework I bought 2 months ago but seeing options like this - https://frame.work/gb/en/products/12-gen-intel-upgrade-kit https://frame.work/gb/en/products/12-gen-intel-upgrade-kit - is nice.

noveltyaccount 4y ago
This is so amazing. If I had a 10th or 11th gen i7 laptop, no way I'd rush out and buy a new laptop for two or three grand. But a new mainboard for $600? Yeah, that's an annual upgrade train I can get on!
- Sebb767 4y ago
  Given that one of their stated targets is sustainability, this sounds like Jevons paradox [0]. This might be averted a bit, though, if you reuse the old mainboards for things like a homeserver. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jevons_paradox https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jevons_paradox
  - f1refly 4y ago
    You can also sell them to people who don't need the latest and greatest and are happy to buy a still more than adequate used machine part
    - Sebb767 4y ago
      They'd still need a framework chassis, so this market is probably a tad smaller (either they are late upgraders or something broke). But yes, this works, too.

Pasorrijer 4y ago

Any plans for discrete graphics?

pc2g4d 4y ago
I came here wondering the same thing. I guess I could just get the eGPU I've tossed around for a while?

pizza234 4y ago

Alder Lake is still not fully supported by Linux (improvements are coming with v5.18¹, which is not stable yet, and it will take a while to be released into several linux distros (at least the Ubuntu based)). It's a shame, because it would have been a great moment to offer an AMD alternative. ¹=https://www.tomshardware.com/uk/news/intel-thread-director-coming-to-linux-5-18 https://www.tomshardware.com/uk/news/intel-thread-director-c...

ripley12 4y ago
Things are fine on Linux even without Thread Director support. I've been running Fedora 36 (kernel v5.17) on a 12900K for a few months now without any noticeable issues.
- pizza234 4y ago
  According to the article above, Linux pre-5.18 will mostly choose P(erformance) cores. On a desktop context, this may go unnoticed (so, in your cases like yours, it's not a problem at all), however, in a laptop, it will make the CPU inefficient, defeating the point of the Alder Lake design.
howinteresting 4y ago
Think most distros have backported the Alder Lake patches to their kernels.
smoldesu 4y ago
Alder Lake works just fine on Linux, it's only Thread Director which is missing. Not that these machines would really even need it, the current CPU prioritization code seems to work surprisingly well.

jai_ 4y ago

Does anyone know if the Framework team plan to offer an ARM based mainboard? I'm honestly not even sure that there are any good ARM based SoCs to make a laptop mainboard from, but given what we've seen from Apple's development of their iPhone chips being integrated into laptop and desktop, I wonder if something similar could be done with other existing ARM CPUs from Samsung or Nvidia?

wmf 4y ago
I doubt they'll offer ARM, but the RK3588 is designed for laptops and not embarrassingly slow (about 3x the performance of an RPi 4).
- CameronNemo 4y ago
  The mt8192 is faster than the rk3588 and already shipping in Chromebooks. Plenty of activity on the linux-mediatek mailing list to mainline support for the currently shipping Chromebooks. mt8195 Chromebooks should appear soon too, and they are even faster than the mt8192. Mainlining activity is also occurring for this SoC.
CameronNemo 4y ago
Do any ARM SoCs support USB4 (apart from Apple Silicon)? IIRC that is the main reason they cited for not shipping AMD boards.
jarbus 4y ago
I'm also interested in this, mainly for the battery life improvements.

noveltyaccount 4y ago

Framework team, I know you hang out here... I'd love a touchscreen+stylus digitizer model with 360° hinge. My Lenovo yoga need a replacement!

freemint 4y ago
Digitizers are really expensive. I am not sure if Framework is big enough to handle this. Just buy a snall wacom tablet and put it next to the laptop that also works.
- noveltyaccount 4y ago
  That is definitely not the same thing as being able to reach up & touch the display, or flip the display 360 degrees into "tablet mode" :) Maybe I'm a minority in liking a laptop to be able to do those kinds of things.
  - freemint 4y ago
    I own a L380 Yoga. Exactly because of this experience i can tell you Framework can't make this yet.

BirAdam 4y ago

Why oh why does every decent laptop have a 1080p screen? Apparently, if I want something other than 1080p I either buy a MacBook and pay the Apple Tax, or I buy something overpriced and often terrible in every other way?

Terretta 4y ago
> I either buy a MacBook and pay the Apple Tax, or I buy something overpriced and often terrible in every other way? So it’s not really a tax then, it’s a quality cost.
30944836 4y ago
Because Linux's support for HiDPI (specifically, fractional scaling) is limited.
jwcooper 4y ago
This laptop has a 2256x1504 screen. The webcam is 1080p.
nrp 4y ago
The Framework Laptop's display is 2256x1504.

cebert 4y ago

I’m excited about Framework Laptops but am holding out for them to release and AMD-based model. I have no interest in supporting Intel.

klaas- 4y ago

Any news about lvfs support from framework?

moderation 4y ago
Haven't been able to find anything beyond his Jan 6 2022 tweet [0]. No response in the forums for this question [1] from 4 days ago. Frustrating to not be able to upgrade BIOS for Linux users without resorting to Windows or replacing boot loaders 0. https://twitter.com/FrameworkPuter/status/1479137228349575171 https://twitter.com/FrameworkPuter/status/147913722834957517... 1. https://community.frame.work/t/lvfs-3-07-bios-availability/15866/5 https://community.frame.work/t/lvfs-3-07-bios-availability/1...
- kieranl 4y ago
  We have LVFS updates in lvfs testing but there is a bios capsule update bug that wipes the boot entries on update. Feedback from 3.07 was that some distros fail to boot after the update because they do not put a efi loader in the fallback path of the ESP partition. So we are hesitant to enable LVFS on 11th gen due to this issue. The code that handles this runs from the previous bios, so we cannot fix this in the capsule. We do offer a EFI update which you can use without booting into windows. https://knowledgebase.frame.work/en_us/framework-laptop-bios-releases-S1dMQt6F https://knowledgebase.frame.work/en_us/framework-laptop-bios...

canuckintime 4y ago

I'm waiting on alternate screen options. The 3K2K OLED screen on the HP Specter X360[1] would be a great highend option for me. Framework is suggesting many customisable options but the wifi antenna is behind the screen so it's not a seamless transition. I would be interested in a screenless framework (with keyboard or just the guts) if they simplify wifi. So a WiFi module or Cellular module would be a definite buy [1] https://www.theverge.com/22264792/hp-spectre-x360-14-laptop-stylus-oled-review-price-specs-features https://www.theverge.com/22264792/hp-spectre-x360-14-laptop-...

seltzered_ 4y ago
I'm waiting for a tablet design. I use a 3k2k lcd touchscreen on the HP Elite X2 tablet and while it's a more repairable design compared to a MacBook or surface, would love something with a bit more modularity to add a larger battery or modify the casing (see https://www.reddit.com/r/ErgoMobileComputers/comments/tcwep0/raised_tablet_setup_weight_comparison/ https://www.reddit.com/r/ErgoMobileComputers/comments/tcwep0... )

Decabytes 4y ago

I hope that if Framework continues to be successful they can start dictating more changes to the manufacturers of the components to make the components easier to integrate into the laptop design. For example, a standard size for Mobos so that makes it easier to integrate AMD/Intel processors

4ggr0 4y ago

I'm now waiting for over a year for this laptop to be available in my country. Would still really like to order one, but my patience is running out, don't have a laptop currently. EDIT: I sound very pissed off. I know that it's hard to ship to lots of countries, it's just frustrating for me to not even have an estimation. Will I be able to buy it in 3 or 6 months? Or does it take another year? no idea.

leodriesch 4y ago
If you're fine with import tax and an American keyboard, there are services [0] that provide you with an American address and send any packets that arrive there to you via international shipping. [0]: https://www.myus.com/ https://www.myus.com/
- 4ggr0 4y ago
  I even want an US-Layout, so that's fine. Wouldn't even have to buy it from the US. Framework sells their laptops in Germany, which is right next to me. But that means that I have to ship the laptop back to Germany for warranty-related stuff etc.
- hda2 4y ago
  > If you're fine with import tax and an American keyboard I never understood this. Why don't companies offer international keyboards in their online american store? It should be especially easy for framework to do this since they already customize their offers/sell kits.
hda2 4y ago
Facing the same problem. When I first read about this laptop, I immediately jumped to preorder it but found that they aren't sold to people like me. The same happened again when I read this article. Your comment reminded me why I still have one. The thing is that I'm also starting to reconsider buying one now. I know they're small and barely able to keep up with their local markets, but competitors are starting to notice. I as a non-american would much rather buy from a international competitor who doesn't treat me like a lesser citizen if they can match Framework's level of openness and modularity. Once I buy into their ecosystem, I doubt I'll reconsider framework again. I imagine a significant portion of framework's underserved international market in this position. I truly wish all the success to the framework team. I just hope, for their sake, that they manage to address international demand before they lose it to their competitors.

petilon 4y ago

Still no retina display option. Steve Jobs made the right call over a decade ago... the only scaling that looks good after 100% is 200%. Any in-between scaling will have display artifacts. This laptop has 150% scaling. What sort of display artifacts can you expect because of this? Go to a web page with a grid, with 1-pixel horizontal grid lines. Even though all lines are set to 1-pixel, some lines will appear thicker than others. I blame Microsoft for this mess. Windows supports in-between resolutions (with display artifacts), and hardware manufacturers therefore manufacture in-between resolutions. Framework laptop is limited to what the display manufacturers put out.

ProAm 4y ago
It also doesn't have a touchbar and has an excessive amount of ports!
- whycombagator 4y ago
  Just like the new MBPs!
- Rebelgecko 4y ago
  Framework laptop actual has fewer ports than MBPs (although they're configurable which is neat, with the caveat that some like expansion ports HDMI are a big drain on battery life, even when inactive)
  - asoneth 4y ago
    The HDMI drain surprised me, so I looked up more information, and you seem to be correct: https://www.reddit.com/r/framework/comments/tekihq/expansion_cards_battery_live_testing/ https://www.reddit.com/r/framework/comments/tekihq/expansion... https://community.frame.work/t/battery-life/861/24 https://community.frame.work/t/battery-life/861/24
    - ProAm 4y ago
      That is odd, I wonder if its polling for connection?

zanethomas 4y ago

my next laptop!

thebiglebrewski 4y ago

Super excited about this launch today! Come work with us on the Rails monolith that powers https://frame.work/ https://frame.work/ if you're stoked too - we're hiring a Senior Full Stack Engineer: https://jobs.lever.co/framework/1d6559b2-ccf9-4391-bded-63034cf0ab22 https://jobs.lever.co/framework/1d6559b2-ccf9-4391-bded-6303... Lots of exciting projects coming up as we expand the Marketplace around the world and have more big launches on the horizon. Fully remote, and having every other Friday off is a nice benefit :)

silencedogood3 4y ago

If I wait six more months to buy will they have a really solid linux story?

silencedogood3 4y ago

Does anyone know if this would be difficult to connect to a second monitor?

bitwize 4y ago

Love the shoutouts to the recent Framework Mainboard cyberdeck projects. Framework is clearly right out in front in terms of hacker community goodwill. Keep it up, guys -- push it further. With enough clout, as an OEM you might be able to push back against Intel on things like ME, and make our hardware even more freedom-respecting.

nerdjon 4y ago

it is exciting to see an upgradeable laptop actually be upgradable. But I have to wonder what the market for this is? The primary use case I see for something like this is a gaming laptop, which this is just nowhere near being suitable for. Outside of that use case, for the vast majority of compute workloads is being able to upgrade really a need? I have 2 laptops (well technically 3 but I don't count my work one really). A gaming laptop and my Mac as my primary computer outside of gaming. I tend to upgrade my Mac maybe... 4 or 5 years. Maybe even more than that. My Mac I got in 2019 and feel no need to upgrade anything in it. My gaming laptop on the other hand... If I had the ability to upgrade that I would likely upgrade parts every year or 2... like a good a gaming desktop. What am I missing here outside of the excitement of an upgradeable laptop? I don't want to diminish the work on that, I am just unclear the use.

victor9000 4y ago
A few weeks ago I spilled an entire cup of sugary espresso on my framework laptop which completely ruined my keyboard by making it a sticky mess. You know what I did? I ordered a replacement keyboard kit for $99, installed it in ~5 minutes, and I haven't thought about it since. Some other part will fail in the future, or I'll spill another cup of coffee, and when that happens all I need to worry about is swapping out the affected parts. And that's great compared to my previous alternatives with an XPS, which was basically to buy a brand new laptop.
- torginus 4y ago
  Can't you do the same thing with a Thinkpad?
  - Eduard 4y ago
    (Putting aside that Thinkpad is a specific brand, whereas keyboard replacability is generally device-specific) Framework keyboard replacement guide: https://guides.frame.work/Guide/Keyboard+Replacement+Guide/83 https://guides.frame.work/Guide/Keyboard+Replacement+Guide/8... ThinkPad T470s keyboard replacement guide: https://support.lenovo.com/de/en/solutions/pd104683-removal-and-installation-steps-for-keyboard-thinkpad-t470s https://support.lenovo.com/de/en/solutions/pd104683-removal-... That Thinkpad model's keyboard replacement steps look way easier than Framework's.

mixmastamyk 4y ago

Looks like they didn’t change the screen resolution or size, There is a person here always complaining about it and might have a point. Believe content has to be scaled 1.5x which is problematic.

jandrese 4y ago

Yay! They finally offer an Ethernet card so I don't have to use flaky piece of crap Realtek based USB Ethernet adapters. (Reads the specs) Shit!

loufe 4y ago

I'm looking at getting a new portable device at the end of the year as my nearly 11 year old Y580 IdeaPad continues to fall apart. I feel like it's between Framework and an iPad pro. It's a little dumb but the amount of content I watch on the thing is high, and having an OLED screen is important to me, it changes the game visually. I would happily drop $2500 CAD on a framework if an OLED screen became available but I sincerely doubt it is something easy for them to source. That said, having a physicaly Canadian French keyboard is a huge plus, thanks Frame.Work. Oh well, choices to be made.

cosmiccatnap 4y ago

Sad to see still no 15/16 inch variant, amd edition, or choice of black shell. That being said I'm glad to see they are following through on the things they promise like upgradable cores. In theory I take it this means if you currently have a framework laptop you can just buy the compute core and upgrade.

conradev 4y ago

It is awesome that Framework is so extensible – I would love to see either an integrated 5G modem, or a 5G expansion card. The latter is tricky because of antennas…

doyougnu 4y ago

I recently bought a framework laptop for a daily driver when I'm not on my desktop. For context I was running NixOS on an old 2014 macbook air, and I work on the glasgow haskell compiler in my day job so I do a lot of CPU heavy tasks. I've got to say, as long as these things are being produced I'll never go back. They are just too good and I cannot recommend them highly enough. One of the things that didn't occur to me before I bought it was that _because_ of the modular design I can switch the side the power port is on. That may not seem like much but it was a revelation the first time I sat on the couch and thought "huh I really wish this was over on that side....wait a minute!". I've also had absolutely no problems with NixOS on my machine, even my apple earbuds easily connect via bluetooth, something that I never quite got working on my macbook. 10/10 This is damn close to my dream laptop and I'm excited a new version is on the way.

emiller88 4y ago
FYI, we've added support for the framework to nixos-hardware. I appreciate any feedback or improvements anyone has! https://github.com/NixOS/nixos-hardware/blob/master/framework/default.nix https://github.com/NixOS/nixos-hardware/blob/master/framewor...
- fuzzybear3965 4y ago
  Thank you!!!
- benevol 4y ago
  Will you guys ever produce a "wide screen" version of your laptop? If so, you have another customer.
  - sennight 4y ago
    Obviously manufacturers haven't been eradicating useful screen ratios for no reason, I've just never seen anyone publicly admit to being the cause. Would you also like to take the blame for glossy screens, chicklet keyboards, and non-replaceable batteries?

gadflyinyoureye 4y ago

Please make your forums have a link to the actual site.

jameshart 4y ago

Ohhhhh that's why there was a spate of projects posted last week about building computers based on framework mainboards - submarine marketing for this framework upgrade launch. Figured it was framework behind it somehow, but the fact that it's to promote the 'here are some ways to use your old mainboard once you upgrade' angle makes a ton of sense.

natosaichek 4y ago
Yeah - whenever somebody makes a good thing and people use it in cool ways, that's submarine marketing for that thing.
- jameshart 4y ago
  Sure, it's entirely a coincidence that both https://github.com/brickbots/framedeck/ https://github.com/brickbots/framedeck/ and https://github.com/penk/MainboardTerminal https://github.com/penk/MainboardTerminal published 10 days ago, and they're both referenced in this framework announcement. Convenient for Framework that those two projects came out right before their upgrade launch! But I don't just have my own innate cynicism to go on here! The framedeck project write-up actually contains this disclosure: As they were preparing this documentation release, they emailed me to see if I'd be interested in a collaboration of sorts. They would provide one of their laptops and some additional modules for me to build something unique with the only condition being that I released the designs for public use. Which is fine! This is earned media - Framework got some people to make and open source some cool designs. I wasn't sure, last week, why they were doing that now in particular. Now I know why they're pushing that angle, and it makes sense. Goodness, people are touchy.
  - smoldesu 4y ago
    Maybe it's because they only recently released the motherboard as an individually purchasable component?
    - jameshart 4y ago

deepsun 4y ago

Used it for half a year. All works awesome, but I don't know how to update firmwares on my Linux Mint/Ubuntu. There are some guidelines on website, but they don't seem official, and say something like "you may need to fix your bootloader after" which sounds scary that I'll break my perfectly working system.

unnouinceput 4y ago
"The system" is on your hard, yes? Who's stopping you to buy another one for testing and swap them out? This way you preserve your perfect working system AND get to play with your desires on the other one. IMO framework laptop is made specifically to tinker with as much as possible in the end.

spullara 4y ago

Can I reassign the ctrl and fn keys? I don't use Fn and it is super annoying that it is where it is.

digisign 4y ago
If not you can almost always swap with Caps lock via software. That should slowly break the dependence on the corner key.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

Macha 4y ago

This isn't "run out and buy" level (that would be 15", AMD 5000 or Intel 12th gen with a dgpu), but it's probably enough to be my next laptop unless something drastic changes in the market by then.

pocholo 4y ago

codezero 4y ago

I got my framework laptop a little over a week ago and I'm pretty happy with it, but seeing such a huge performance boost is frustrating a little, that said, I bought it to support/encourage the company, so I guess it's working :P

julianbuse 4y ago
well, it is upgradeable...
- codezero 4y ago
  Didn't expect to need to upgrade the mainboard so quickly :) I prefer to wait for them to have an AMD option before changing out the mainboard.

ripvanwinkle 4y ago

just waiting for a 15inch version to come out. Any ideas when that might happen

SemanticStrengh 4y ago

When will you support a 2K (ideally) (or 4K) OLED panel? I'm a software developer and I'm not going back to the blurry text era and the non-contrasting movie/games era. Also come on you need thunderbolt support, egpu is a key advantage in 2022. So I appreciate the concept but currently you are not enough for my needs.

pmlnr 4y ago

Please, please, please make s keyboard option that has full size arrow keys, dedicated pgup, pgdown, del, ins, home, end. The current laptop keyboards, apart from thinkpads, are a joke for those who want to work on them, the framework, sadly, is included. I'd also love a trackpoint with 3 dedicated buttons but I'll keep dreaming.

kristianp 4y ago
I agree about the separate Home, End PgUp, PgDn keys. Still mad at Apple for influencing the removal of these from all laptop keyboards! It's one big reason that I have a Thinkpad, even though their keys aren't as good as a Surface's or Mac's.
- hda2 4y ago
  Same situation here. When I bought my last laptop, a thinkpad, the main deciding factor was keyboard keys. In their reckless pursuit of apple and their loaded customers, Laptop makers failed to appreciate how important key layout is to retaining their existing customers. Fortunately, framework (or any third-party) is in a position to offer keyboards with alternate key layouts :)
archon810 4y ago
100% this and given the target demographic, I can't believe I had to scroll so much until I found the keyboard called out.

cyanydeez 4y ago

When we gonna get AMD

baka367 4y ago

I am staying in a 2017 laptop waiting for framework to become available in the wider world. Really hope to hear about would wide availability as soon as possible

causality0 4y ago

I'm definitely a fan of the Framework, but I'm not a customer yet. They just don't differentiate enough for me yet. Perhaps in the future they'll branch out a little bit more by offering things like a touchpad with real buttons, a non-chiclet keyboard, a USB module that combines multiple type-A ports and a microsd reader on the same module, etc.

seanp2k2 4y ago

Love the Framework idea, but I just upgraded my desktop from a 5950x to a 12900KS and I had to go from a 280mm AIO to a 420mm AIO just to keep it from thermal throttling. These 12th-gen Intel chips put out A LOT of heat. I hope that they offer an AMD version with one of the upcoming Zen4 mobile APUs. The Intel integrated graphics continue to underperform, especially compared to the Ryzen APUs.

ElijahLynn 4y ago

I like the marketplace idea and hope they can offer a ThinkPad keyboard with a touchstick/trackpoint. See https://community.frame.work/t/any-chance-of-trackpoint/1026/46 https://community.frame.work/t/any-chance-of-trackpoint/1026... if this is you too.

andreareina 4y ago
Just having different keyboard options would be clutch, the non-inverted-T arrow keys is one of the few things I find to be really flawed.

plaguepilled 4y ago

'We're not taking orders in your country' COOL THANKS!

kristianp 4y ago
Once I get to the checkout and address stage, the only country that can be selected is USA. I think they should let you know well before you have to create an account that this is the case.
jmprspret 4y ago
Yep. (Still...).

kristianp 4y ago

On a tangent about the 12th gen i5s, does anyone understand why the cheaper SKUs remove the E cores and not reduce the number of P cores? I suppose Intel intends that power efficiency (battery life) should be a premium feature now.

nani8ot 4y ago
That's because Intel uses the E/P cores differently ARM chips usually try to use E cores primarily for saving battery, so they only use P cores when performance is necessary. But Intel uses E cores to allow for higher multi core performance while staying in their power budget and the available die space. i5s get the same amount of P cores as i7s, so their general application performance is pretty similar. But then if they compile/render something the many small E cores make the CPU faster without melting the system down... The thermals are also why Intel 11th [1] gen had a maximum of 8 cores, while Intel 10th [2] gen had a maximum of 10. AMD pushed forward with their up to 16 cores and because of how good their performance per watt is, they could cool them. Intel noticed with 10th gen that they couldn't achieve high enough clock speeds with so many cores. [1] https://ark.intel.com/content/www/us/en/ark/products/series/202984/11th-generation-intel-core-i9-processors.html https://ark.intel.com/content/www/us/en/ark/products/series/... [2] https://ark.intel.com/content/www/us/en/ark/products/series/195735/10th-generation-intel-core-i9-processors.html https://ark.intel.com/content/www/us/en/ark/products/series/...

walrus01 4y ago

I really, really wish they would not use realtek for gigabit Ethernet and would an Intel chipset NIC instead.

dr_soong 4y ago

Any plans on adding a touchscreen option in the future ? I almost bought one earlier this year but really wanted a convertible. So I bought the new X13 yoga gen2 instead, which I am quite happy with for now (works well with Ubuntu). I use it rarely in tablet mode though and could probably live without this feature but I absolutely love having a touchscreen on my notebook.

goodguyamerikan 4y ago

I know I'm getting ahead of myself and there's a lot of work on this space but please consider something similar for phones too

laerus 4y ago

2 years warranty, no AMD alternative, Windows preinstalled, sadly I'm not sold yet. Maybe I'll go with System76 this time.

Smithalicious 4y ago

Any plans to sell a full laptop kit minus mainboard? I have a Framework with the 11th Gen CPU (that I love very much) and I like that there is an upgrade path to the 12th gen CPU, but afaict that would leave me with an 11th gen mainboard that I can't turn into a second laptop easily and would be hard to sell for the same reason.

hollerith 4y ago
People put the mainboard in a 3-d-printed case (the plans for which are given away by Frame.work) to make a tiny desktop computer (like a NUC), so a mainboard would sell.
bacheaul 4y ago
Considering you'd like to buy both a complete laptop minus the main board (to put your existing main board in), and a main board (to upgrade your existing 11th gen), I'm sure there's a solution we can find here...
- Smithalicious 4y ago
  Ah, yeah, a little bit of creative thinking gets you quite far with this issue! Thanks :-)

Abishek_Muthian 4y ago

Looks like Framework is ready to take over the role of the compute unit from Raspberry Pi/Jetson for cyber decks[1] thanks to the separate availability of the mainboard and its modularity. It's also priced reasonably and so I might be able to get it to India without selling my kidney which is not possible with fully-built laptops due to import restrictions i.e. If Framework ever decide to ship to the country. [1] https://community.frame.work/t/introducing-the-new-and-upgraded-framework-laptop/18646#reduce-reuse-recycle-5 https://community.frame.work/t/introducing-the-new-and-upgra...

mickotron 4y ago

Please allow order from Australia.

GekkePrutser 4y ago

Huh it feels like that thing only just came out... I had no idea it was already out a full year. I wonder if it also offers FreeBSD support.. That would be amazing. Though it's probably a long shot especially for the alder lake version.

ejjpi 4y ago

Glad to see the upgraded version, I hope they'll open ordering in Italy soon!