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One of the most frustrating things about HN is that people seem so unaware of how idiosyncratic their preferences are. If you stood on the street corner and ask

• SergeAx 5mo ago
  On the contrary. If you really do this street-corner experiment, 80% of answers would be "I want my phone to last longer on one charge." Other 20% will be "I want my phone to charge faster". No one will say, "Oh, I want it to be foldable," or "Oh, I want an AI inside my phone." Zero. Zilch. Nada. Mobile phones are totally okay the way they are now. No one needs new ones, and almost no one wants new ones. My previous phone lasted for 5 years. I changed the battery halfway, of course - it took a repair guy in a local shop about an hour.
• afavour 5mo ago
  I think that’s the wrong way of framing it. If, before the launch of the iPhone, you asked what people wanted from their phones you’d be there a very long time before anyone described something like an iPhone (no buttons, capacitive touch interface, etc). And yet, once they were offered it, people flocked to it. This regulation is targeted to devices with poor battery lives. Just because it hasn’t occurred to people to ask for the feature doesn’t mean they won’t appreciate it.
  • emtel 5mo ago
    That's an odd reply since by that argument they also flocked to a phone with no replaceable battery, which was pretty standard in the 2000s. But you could be right. I guess this will be an experiment to watch: If EU consumers show a strong preference for replaceable batteries once they become more widely available, we can expect manufacturers to start offering it in other markets as well.
    • afavour 5mo ago
      I think everything is a tradeoff and at that point people took the trade. But the place smartphones take in our lives today compared to 2006 is radically different, I wouldn’t assume much carries over.
    • callmeal 5mo ago
      >they also flocked to a phone with no replaceable battery, Did they flock to a phone with no replaceable battery the same way we flocked to phones with no headphone jack?
• stemlord 5mo ago
  >and by the time batteries wear out, most people are going to want a new a phone That remains to be seen. This could accelerate cultural change around desiring shiny new toy being seen as cool
  • moffkalast 5mo ago
    I used to be in this camp, and before we had the charge limit and power saving mode it was true, but now? I'm no longer sure. Like, I've had my phone for 6 years now and the battery is still going strong with the 80% charge limit always on throughout its lifetime. Meanwhile the USB-c port is shot to fuck and disconnects constantly, it can't connect to 5G, leaving me without a connection in lots of locations cause there are no fallback towers, and the OS support has basically been over for a year now. Cameras are no longer up to snuff either and I could use a storage upgrade. My previous phone had a replacable battery, which I replaced once before the GPS and wifi chip died and turned it into an air gapped brick. Everything else seems to fail at a similar rate. Still it's not really about if it lasts as long or not. It's about having the right to repair devices and to reduce waste at large. First batteries, then displays, main boards, etc. Each law builds on the previous one as precedent.
• OtherShrezzing 5mo ago
  I think the data for your last sentence does exist. When Apple was forced to replace broken batteries on the 12, lots of people opted to replace the phone and there was a corresponding drop in iPhone sales. It’s a pretty commonly used canonical example of revealed preferences.
• bibstha 5mo ago
  Me and partner are both on iPhone 14 Pro. And this is more than powerful and sufficient for our daily use, except the battery is around 82%. I'd happily replace the battery right now for a more powerful one.
  • shocks 5mo ago
    You can pay Apple to replace it for you, and the cost is not that high. £90 or so. If the battery swap fails, you’ll get a as-new replacement phone and you also won’t be charged. In exchange for this monetary cost and the inconvenience of leaving your phone at an Apple Store for 1 hour; you get peace of mind and a highly rated water/dust proof phone. (Seriously, I’ve seen people diving with iPhones - no case - recording videos.)
    • moonlighter 5mo ago
      I've done exactly that with my iPhone 14 Pro. Battery was degraded down to 72%, iOS suggested in the Settings app to get the battery replaced either at an Apple Store or at an authorized service center. I made an appointment at the Apple Genius Bar and took care of it in a little over an hour for $99. A lot cheaper than buying a brand new phone!
    • deleted 5mo ago
      [deleted]
• perfunctory 5mo ago
  > At the very least we'd need to see some data that shows that most people replace batteries when it is possible to do so. I don’t understand. If we want to see the data we do need to make batteries replaceable.
• ImPostingOnHN 5mo ago
  > If you stood on the street corner and asked every passerby what they would change about their phone, I think you would be there all day before someone said "I wish I could replace the battery". If you stood on the street corner and asked every passerby if they want their phone to have a replaceable battery, I don't think you would be there very long before receiving a "yes". I think that's a more honest framing of the question. > I suppose someone will say that this law is necessary for environmental reasons, regardless of people's preferences. But that's nonsense, because the law doesn't actually require people to replace batteries rather than replacing their phone How could they replace their batteries if they wanted to, unless the manufacturer makes it possible? The goal is not to force individuals to not replace their phones, but rather to provide that as an option at all, for those who want it. > At the very least we'd need to see some data that shows that most people replace batteries when it is possible to do so. At the very least, we'd need only data showing that that number is non-zero. From where did you get the idea that we need to prove "most" people would choose to take advantage of this option?
  • emtel 5mo ago
    > The goal is not to force individuals to not replace their phones, but rather to provide that as an option at all, for those who want it. But my point is that you need to recognize that in so doing, you are taking away the option of having other things, such as waterproofing, larger batteries, smaller/lighter phones, etc. There is no free lunch.
    • ImPostingOnHN 5mo ago
      > But my point is that you need to recognize that in so doing, you are taking away the option of having other things, such as waterproofing, larger batteries, smaller/lighter phones, etc. There is no free lunch. 1. Waterproofing is possible with replaceable batteries. 2. Larger batteries are possible with replaceable batteries. In fact, replaceable batteries makes this easier. I'm old enough to remember when you could buy a bigger battery for your cell phone that came with a bulged cover to accommodate it. If you don't want that though, you will have the choice to avoid it. 3. Smaller/lighter phones are possible with user-replaceable batteries. You could even use a smaller/lighter battery, too, if you wanted These options aren't being taken away. We're just adding another option.
• cozzyd 5mo ago
  It used to be true that it made sense to replace your phone every few years because new ones were so much better. But like... I have a Pixel 8 and there's not really anything in a newer phone that's compelling enough to spend any money on...
  • sharkweek 5mo ago
    I honestly know I could “optimize” my phone replacement schedule based on resale values of phones etc, but for the last ~15ish years I just replace my iPhone when the battery starts shitting itself (3-5 years each in my experience)
  • IshKebab 5mo ago
    I agree, but also battery life has significantly improved over the last decade. Every phone I or my friends have replaced recently has been because the screen has broken. I would put good money on this being true for most people. I think if the EU really wanted to reduce phone waste they'd make it easier or cheaper to fix screens. Still, this doesn't seem like a terrible move. I bet you can make it relatively easy to replace batteries without compromising much. Look at the Macbook Neo for example.
    • leptons 5mo ago
      I'm really unsure how broken screens happen. Don't you have a protective case on your phone? I've had smartphones for over 20 years, and have never broken a screen. Am I just lucky? More careful? I drop my phones too, but have never broken the screen. The only thing that ever failed on any phone I've owned has been the battery.
      • riversflow 5mo ago
        I’m not crazy like some people, but I’ve broken screens many times and every time it has been in a case, one time it was in a case I specifically bought for extra protection. Half of my screen breaks have been from getting out of my car with my phone in my lap and gravel on the ground. Another way I’ve broken screens is from my phone falling out of my pocket and onto rocks/concrete. That has happened twice. And the final way has been from getting smashed in my pocket. I slipped while scrambling some rocks and my phone(in a case I bought for this long backpacking trip) got smashed on my hip, another time I was running around at my friend’s house at night and ran into a wheel barrow, smashing it on my thigh. Never had a battery fail. A note: My current iPhone 16 pro is built like a tank, and the glass is truly extraordinary.
• ahartmetz 5mo ago
  How about you ask people if they want a non-swappable battery for 1 mm less thickness?
  • iso1631 5mo ago
    Can I have a thicker phone but narrower I currently have a 12 mini, but I'd love to go back to the iphone 4 size, or even a blackberry curve. Would be fine for comms, and I suspect I'd spend less time doom-scrolling on it.
• elicash 5mo ago
  This doesn't require the battery to be replaceable. It requires either the battery to still be good after 1000 charges or for it to be replaceable, either one. Although some of this depends on how you define replaceable.
• riobard 5mo ago
  > by the time batteries wear out, most people are going to want a new a phone. Not true. In recent years smartphones do not advance much, and would be perfectly fine to keep working if not for the dying battery. > At the very least we'd need to see some data that shows that most people replace batteries when it is possible to do so. The degree of "possible" varies greatly depending on the available expertise and spare parts. Right now in EU it's cost prohibitive for both coz the special labor required is expensive and almost no official spare parts for consumers. So of coz this will be no data to support your claim.
• tomca32 5mo ago
  > If you stood on the street corner and asked every passerby what they would change about their phone, I think you would be there all day before someone said "I wish I could replace the battery". Are you sure about this? I've heard this complaint from a lot of non-tech people who are old enough to remember flip phones with replaceable batteries. It might be age related.
  • amluto 5mo ago
    My old flip “feature phone” could go about two weeks on a charge. I miss that.
    • adrianN 5mo ago
      You can still buy phones with weeks of runtime, they’re just not „smart“
• throwanem 5mo ago
  It would take a great deal of lawmaking to make phones more worse, for most people, than phone manufacturers and mobile app developers already do. You want to talk about idiosyncratic preferences, really? Here?
• nicpottier 5mo ago
  I think phone manufacturers will figure it out once it is a requirement. Was switching everyone to USB-C annoying for Apple? Sure. Are we in a better place because the EU forced it. You betcha. That's the point. I don't love everything the EU does (cookie banners!?) but this is one where I have confidence that the consumer will ultimately benefit. As others have noted, most people do not replace their phones every two years anymore, there just isn't any big reason to.
  • Ntrails 5mo ago
    > Are we in a better place because the EU forced it. You betcha. That's the point. Speak for yourself, I've gained nothing but annoyance. (I'm willing to accept a theoretical greater good argument - but I'm not precisely sold)
    • hilbert42 5mo ago
      What exactly is your specific annoyance?
      • PunchyHamster 5mo ago
        My guess is apple user
      • 0x3f 5mo ago
        Lack of incentive for technological development beyond the current required standard.
      • Uvix 5mo ago
        USB-C ports are more fragile than Lightning - one of the three ports on my laptop will no longer hold cables in place anymore. It also requires more precise alignment to get the cable plugged in.
        • wao0uuno 5mo ago
          Apple USB-C ports and plugs are superb so maybe the design is not so bad. Maybe most manufacturers just use crappy ports to save a few cents. But yeah, mechanically Lightning was awesome. Great plug/port.
• jbombadil 5mo ago
  I'm curious about the environmental argument here. At face value it makes sense, but is there some hard data that shows that there is a meaningful number of consumers that buy new phones only (or "mostly") because of battery degradation? The article (granted, probably not the best source of information) has some numbers like "number of phones sold", but doesn't actually tackle the crux of the issue: how many of those phone sales would be prevented by having user swappable batteries?
  • kybernetikos 5mo ago
    My previous phone was refurbished and was great in all ways except for battery life. I have now bought a new phone that I wouldn't have bought if batteries were replaceable. Having said that, I do like having waterproof phones, and I expect this rule would make that harder.
  • frm88 5mo ago
    I feel we don't have these data yet. What we do have is repair statistics for cell phones, where battery replacement accounts for 22% (in the US) of a $18.5B market. https://worldmetrics.org/cell-phone-repair-statistics/ https://worldmetrics.org/cell-phone-repair-statistics/
• nebalee 5mo ago
  With the replaceable batteries the people at least have a choice. Without the option for a battery swap you had to buy a new device and throw away a otherwise totally fine one.
• jwr 5mo ago
  > you would be there all day before someone said "I wish I could replace the battery" Before that, you wrote "One of the most frustrating things about HN is that people seem so unaware of how idiosyncratic their preferences are" and it's exactly what I could say here. Not everyone has lots of money and for some people extending the life of their phones is important. They really do wish they could replace the battery without hassle and without paying a shop to do it.
  • nebalee 5mo ago
    With the storage cost crisis which will make future phone more expensive I'm sure a lot of people will wish they could prolong the lifetime of theri current device with a battery swap.
    • alterom 5mo ago
      >With the storage cost crisis On that note, mandating an SD card slot as a requirement would be a very much welcome next step. Manufacturers selling space-crippled devices just to upsell "premium" models is such an environmental waste (at the very least).
      • abletonlive 5mo ago
        [flagged]
        • anonymars 5mo ago
          I can't tell if this is sarcasm or truly a straight-faced attempt to teach us about "healthy reactions" to things
          • alterom 5mo ago
            I like their attempt to teach us about "selfishness" even more. Product regulations are "selfish", mmmkay. Requiring seat belts in cars is starting up tyranny¹. Ditto for rear-view cameras. How dare they! Those authoritarian Europeans²! _____ ¹ According to this guy — and we know it's a guy, don't we? ² Rear view cameras are required on all new vehicles sold in the US.
• dualvariable 5mo ago
  Half of cellphone users hold onto phone for 3+ years and experience battery degradation, and cell phone battery life is the #1 complain/concern about cellphone users. They might not immediately demand swappable batteries (particularly if they're too young to have ever owned a cellphone with swappable batteries) but I suspect if you prompted them, that the response rate would be very high, and that this isn't just an echo chamber concern.
• vjerancrnjak 5mo ago
  Following the bottle-cap madness, I don't think any current data shows the actual issue was resolved. Even worse, the effect on marine life is still not measured, and afaik reduction of harm was the primary goal. Instead of brutally high fines on fishing net waste, we got bottle-cap madness. We have so much experience with scientific method, yet these massive decisions are adhoc, that's how the whole world works. We never tested what would happen by allowing mass production of plastic, or phones, or whatever, so these antipatches are going by the "feels" as well, with no individual taking responsibility for failures.
  • riffraff 5mo ago
    There is monitoring of beach pollution but data publication is typically delayed, like, we know it went down by 30% from 2015-2016 to 2020-2021, we will have data on a regulation that went into force in late 2024 only in a few years. [0] https://joint-research-centre.ec.europa.eu/jrc-news-and-updates/marine-litter-eu-coastline-down-almost-one-third-2025-02-04_en https://joint-research-centre.ec.europa.eu/jrc-news-and-upda...
  • marc_g 5mo ago
    A bit off topic, but I recently had a drink that didn't have the attached bottle cap while travelling abroad, and my god, was it a minor annoyance to have to hold the bottle cap in my hand while drinking. I also almost dropped it because I expected it to stay attached. Funny how fast we adapt.
• za_creature 5mo ago
  > If you stood on the street corner and asked every passerby what they would change... ... the answer would depend on which street corner you asked. > people seem so unaware of how idiosyncratic their preferences are Yes, they are. They also tend to state that "most people" agree with them. This is called subjectivity.
• hilbert42 5mo ago
  "…by the time batteries wear out, most people are going to want a new a phone." Why? There have been few new features in recent years and new phones have restrictions not wanted by many. Google is closing the Android ecosystem and making it more proprietary so I'll keep my phone as long as I'm able. The non-replaceable battery has to be one of the biggest scams ever perpetrated on consumers. It's great that it's about to be broken.
• jerjerjer 5mo ago
  We had replaceable batteries in phones for years. There's no reason battery replacement has to involve 20 steps and require ungluing the screen.
  • Melatonic 5mo ago
    There are even fully water resistant (and IP rated phones) currently made with replaceable batteries. Best of all worlds
  • sschueller 5mo ago
    Exactly, this isn't something new. It was removed for no reason other than aesthetics and possibly to force users to buy a new device every few years. May I remind you that the fist few iPhones were not water proof, yet the battery was not removable. Laptops are not waterproof but those batteries are also no longer removable.
• marcosdumay 5mo ago
  I don't think any single person I know would say they would exchange replaceable batteries for a 1mm thinner phone, waterproof up to 100m instead of 10m, or a $5 difference in price. In fact, the only place I would ever expect somebody to claim otherwise is here.
  • patall 5mo ago
    I know plenty. But not among the 18-20 year olds that do not know it any different, sure. But certainly my grandpa. Just thinking that you do not need a power-bank and just bring an extra battery on a longer trip will get millions of people interested.
    • quesera 5mo ago
      I struggle to see the difference between "bringing an extra battery" and "bringing a power bank". Except that the latter has more functionality than the former, and should be prefereable.
  • PunchyHamster 5mo ago
    I'd love thick phone with big battery, the current ones are already thin enough to be uncomfortable without a case, but the available models seem to be "ok if you want battery you want some rugged brick 3 android versions behind with everything else worse"
  • 0x3f 5mo ago
    > I don't think any single person I know would say they would exchange replaceable batteries for a 1mm thinner phone, waterproof up to 100m instead of 10m, or a $5 difference in price. Well, yes it's quite easy to argue against strawmen. I don't know anyone who would favor a built-in shoehorn over a replaceable battery either. Although on your waterproof point, that's just a single dimension metric used for comms. It's not really about specifically descending to 100m. A 100m rated device responds better to water. In a general sense, it's more robust. Even if I don't go diving.
  • pjmlp 5mo ago
    I don't know a single person that would dive with their phone or care about the thiness of the bezel.
• nine_k 5mo ago
  > most people are going to want a new a phone. This is going to be harder, or, at least, harder to replace your current phone with something objectively better. RAM and Flash shortages / high prices are likely going to last for years, wars are additionally jeopardizing production of electronic components, and the current crop of mobile devices is already insanely powerful. It's going to be pretty hard to sell most people an upgrade that feels meaningful when it's going to be like 30% more expensive. Running AI locally could be a big selling point for an upgrade, but see the problems with RAM and general production capacity overload. I's not going to be a mass-market thing.
  • TheScaryOne 5mo ago
    >Running AI locally could be a big selling point Actually will push a lot of people away. I don't want any hardware that has special relationships with AI LLM's.
• lynndotpy 5mo ago
  > If you stood on the street corner and asked every passerby what they would change about their phone, I think you would be there all day before someone said "I wish I could replace the battery". I have experience saying the exact opposite, although this was a few years ago. OnePlus set up a marketing booth on my campus in 2018 or 2019 or so, and they did exactly this, with a large sign asking people what they want out of a phone. They asked passerbys what they want out of a phone, and they let people put their requests on a board. When I put my request up, I wasn't the first one to request replaceable batteries and a headphone jack. (At the time, OnePlus had removed the jack from their most recent phone, after advertising their previous phone in comparison to Apple's jackless phone).
• eNV25 5mo ago
  Modern phones have 7 years of software support, but the battery lasts only around 3 years.
  • jhasse 5mo ago
    Pixel 8 is nearly 3 years old. Battery is still perfectly fine.
    • patall 5mo ago
      My Pixel 4a would also still be fine. If Google had not killed the battery. I think by now Google has asked (=paid) people to swap batteries on at least 3 different Pixel phones.
  • rythie 5mo ago
    The battery in my iPhone 11 pro (6.5 years old) is still basically fine as long as I charge it every day. None of my previous smart phones were able to keep enough charge to be useful after 3-4 years.
• navane 5mo ago
  A lot of people buy new phones only because their battery doesn't get through the day anymore. Very ironic, you almost got it, post.
• nslsm 5mo ago
  > I suppose someone will say that this law is necessary for environmental reasons, regardless of people's preferences. Welcome to democracy and lawmaking in 2026. We know better than you!
• dukeofdoom 5mo ago
  I envision somone keeping a phone long time, not updating it and evtualluy the spying hooks get obsolete and so phone gets more secure, as tech companies move on with new apis and drop support for the old ones. This might be the biggest win. Ms still has customers using win95
• deleted 5mo ago
  [deleted]
• patall 5mo ago
  Given that probably one in twenty people you'd meet would have between 5 and 10% of battery left: probably most of those. (and yes, I know that power banks exist)
  • alterom 5mo ago
    Case in point: 8% battery left, going down to 7% typing this comment.
• PunchyHamster 5mo ago
  Counter-point - people might not know what they want until they experience it. Yeah, for someone that changes phone every 3 years or earlier, that's not a desired feature. But many people did that change precisely because battery got weak, and there have been less and less reasons to keep on the most modern model for a while now.
• coda_ 5mo ago
  Your experience is not at all what I see out there. Most people I know only get new phones because their battery will no longer get them through the day. They hate having to set up a new phone when their old one is totally fine other than the battery. For the people I know that do upgrade their phones regularly, they typically want to give their old phone to someone who would love a usable phone, but can't afford a new one. Giving a phone with a shot and non-replaceable battery effectively destroys the value of the gift. I know many people who can't afford to by new, and they avoid buying older or used phones because they fear the battery may be shot. We obviously have different opinions regarding what most people want... totally fine.
  • cactusplant7374 5mo ago
    > They hate having to set up a new phone when their old one is totally fine other than the battery. That is why I have the battery replaced every few years.
  • 0x3f 5mo ago
    It would seem that "different opinions are out there" is not really a good basis for "one opinion enforced by EU directive", though.
    • Mali- 5mo ago
      If your battery is replaceable, you can still decide to throw the phone away and add to the pile of e-waste. The legislation allows both choices, at the cost of higher prices.
      • 0x3f 5mo ago
        Obviously people aren't finding the literal act of wasteful disposal the appealing thing about e.g. non-self-repairable iPhones, so no, not really.
      • stefanvdw1 5mo ago
        Having a higher price is an incentive to using the phone you have a bit longer by replacing the battery. It’s certainly better than having them be guaranteed e-waste.
• radley 5mo ago
  > If you stood on the street corner and asked every passerby what they would change about their phone, I think you would be there all day before someone said "I wish I could replace the battery". But what if you asked the right question, "what is the biggest problem with your phone?" Most would answer, "the battery dies too soon. It doesn't last all day like it used to."
• jmyeet 5mo ago
  My own hesitation with HM echo chamberification is federation. Nobody cares. And until you can point to a concrete benefit to end users, you should stop and think about why you’re pushing it this hard. But I don’t think this is the case with phone batteries. I’ve had many conversations with friends and family that came down to replace the battery or upgrade the phone. I feel the same way about soldered on CPUs, RAM and SSDs in laptops and other computers. The benefits of doing this are marginal at best. We all know the real reason is forced obsolescence. We all know this is why battery replacement is hard too.
• asdfman123 5mo ago
  I think most people who are capable of figuring out how buying a new phone impacts their financial goals would be in favor of this
• jonathanstrange 5mo ago
  I think you're plain wrong. I have never talked to anyone in my life about phones who didn't want replaceable batteries and wasn't annoyed by the throwaway culture. It's a top priority for the people I know, though by far not important enough for most of them to go for something like a Fairphone. However, these preferences don't really matter anyway because nobody is forced to replace the battery and not buy a new phone when their phone has replaceable batteries.
• kd913 5mo ago
  Apple is about to deprecate the iphone 11/SE 2020 version. Am gonna repurpose them as webcams given the 12MP camera put in there is arguably better than the brand new ones they put on new macs. The phone now has a limited lifespan though because of this prior stupidity where eventually am gonna get into spicy pillow territory. At that point the phone prematurely dies. We are going into a period where we are throwing away devices with 12mp+ cameras, and processors arguably faster than most desktops. It was arguable when the phones were old and legacy, but at this point the cameras on there are stupidly good. We need these phones to be repurposed for a second life and actually capture their manufacture energy costs. Frankly, if Apple allowed old iphones to be used for server usage, it is kind of crazy how efficient per dollar that would be.
• Thaxll 5mo ago
  I think most americans are happy to have usb-c on their Iphones.
  • Danox 5mo ago
    No one cares, and having replaceable batteries is not gonna make any difference software and hardware support as usual will drive most people to upgrade their phones or their computers or anything else electronic for that matter. Owner of an 11Pro iPhone soon to be obsolete after seven years. I probably will upgrade sometime in the next two years nine years with the same electronic device is long enough. I got my moneys worth. very satisfied with the longevity and resale value of most of the Apple products in comparison to the competition.
• alex_young 5mo ago
  Are laws typically enacted to compel companies to follow consumer demand? I think that’s what the market itself is best at. Instead this law is designed to provide the public with a good everyone can benefit from - less waste of valuable electronic components polluting our environment. And even if those same consumers would choose a thinner phone over a replaceable battery, they will probably also enjoy being able to fully charge it more often for less money.
• adev_ 5mo ago
  > asked every passerby what they would change about their phone, [...] before someone said "I wish I could replace the battery". 'If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses'....Henry Ford Nobody cares about repairability....until they are hit hard by it. Anecdote: Around 5y ago, the lightning connector of my wife's iPhone died after 3y usage. We brought it to an Apple Store and the official answer was "Sorry, we don't fix that on this model. Here is a 200€ discount on a new one"... The phone was still worth >900€ at the time. Let's be clear: This kind of commercial practice are unacceptable both ecologically and ethically speaking. It is terrible customer service. A lot of high end phones (outside Apple) at the time would have their USB-C port fixed in matter of few hours for <100€ in any random "I Fix it" store. The battery is the exact same shit.
• monooso 5mo ago
  > I think you would be there all day before someone said "I wish I could replace the battery". Possibly true, and equally true of the screen, the charging port, or any other component. "Repairability" isn't a feature people list unprompted, it's a property they notice the moment a £5 part bricks their phone. The street-corner survey tells you what people currently notice, not what they'd value if the option existed. > by the time batteries wear out, most people are going to want a new phone In a market where batteries are glued in and replacement costs a meaningful fraction of a new device, of course people upgrade on that timeline. Change the cost structure and the behaviour changes with it. Fair point that we'd want data, but the original claim rests on the same intuition, just pointed the opposite way. The broader framing (that repairability is an idiosyncratic preference being imposed on a majority who don't want it) gets this backwards. Most people don't want to care about repairability, in the same way most people don't want to care about food safety standards. They want the option to exist without having to think about it. That's what the law provides.
• umvi 5mo ago
  More replaceable batteries can have secondary effects that most people would probably like though - like the ability to by a used phone on ebay/FB marketplace that doesn't have an abysmal battery.
• dijit 5mo ago
  most of the time I replace my phone because the battery degraded so badly and a replacement is expensive. Its not enough by itself that the phone has amassed scratches and is 20% slower or has a 30% worse camera optic than the current generation, or that updates will only continue for a year or two more. But the slowdown (associated with battery degradation btw) and fact that it doesn’t get me through a whole day definitely move the needle into me buying a new phone.
• mcmcmc 5mo ago
  > by the time batteries wear out, most people are going to want a new a phone. Extreme consumer brain coupled with privilege. Billions of people can’t afford a new phone every couple years, they buy things and use them until they are past the point of repair, only buying a replacement when they have no other choice. Can you honestly even say this year’s new flagships, or any from the last decade, represent meaningful improvement for most people outside the tech bubble and influencer sphere? Smartphones have been “good enough” for a long time.
• Johanx64 5mo ago
  > If you stood on the street corner and asked every passerby what they would change about their phone, I think you would be there all day before someone said "I wish I could replace the battery". I doubt most people wouldn't even think that this is a thing they can wish for or that this is even within realm of possibility. It has to be explicitly named as an option - as, I'm afraid, people have forgotten that you can have "nice things". Also I feel rather uncomfortable every time somebody purports to be representitive of or know that "most people" want.
• a2128 5mo ago
  Right to repair has never been about requirement to repair. Obviously we can't force people to repair their phones instead of buying a new one, because that would involve replacing the market economy with a planned economy. This would be extremely difficult to pull off and would be wildly unpopular. At the same time, 5.78 billion people have a smartphone worldwide. It is obviously wildly unsustainable to live in a world where 5.78 billion people have to throw away their old phone and buy a new one every 2-3 years. However, phone manufacturers have figured out that if they force people to, they can amass ridiculous levels of wealth because the demand for new phones would be constantly high. So obviously the incentives here are completely wrong. This has happened before with lightbulbs in the 20th century and is a legitimate form of market failure that needs to be resolved, as it wastes a lot of consumer spending to replace what consumers already had (like the parable of the broken window). For many years since phone manufacturers started gluing phones together with a consumable part inside, consumers have been denied the ability to replace their battery. Where the option does exist, it's often very inconvenient, difficult, or with a price inflated to be nearly as expensive as buying a new one. Phones stopped advancing significantly many years ago. Phone manufacturers now re-release practically the same phone with slight CPU and camera improvements, something completely unheard of until relatively recently. Lately the main marketing trend for new phones has been AI, but this is a nonsense trend because most of modern AI runs in the cloud, and very few are actually utilizing any local AI features, so the only "AI" thing about the phone is just a preinstalled ChatGPT-like app you can get on any other phone. So clearly they have run out of things to improve, and things to market around. In a normally functioning market, this would mean phones have become a solved technology and we can stop replacing our phones as often, maybe once every 10 years if you're careful with your phone. But this is not what we see precisely because phone manufacturers have been manufacturing problems that are most easily solved by buying a new phone, which they will push people to do whatever way they can for profit. The phone industry has failed to regulate itself, and so this is why we are seeing a push for this type of regulation.
• kelipso 5mo ago
  I don’t know what’s with tech people and their insistence that most people who use tech are mindless zombies.
• pjmlp 5mo ago
  I am using mobile phones since 1996, I will gladly accept the "worse" experience. And no, I don't want a new phone just because the battery wears out, it did not lost the ability to do phone calls and SMS in the process. We are on the year of Android 17, my oldest device still runs Android 12 perfectly well, with the apps I care about.
• CivBase 5mo ago
  > this law will make phones _worse_ for most people I challenge you to give me an example of how this law might result in a phone that is worse for most people. This law does not require a slide-off phone cover. It does not require a screwed-on backplate. It does not forbid the use of chemical adhesives. It does not stipulate how a phone should or shouldn't be designed. It basically just requires the manufacturer to offer replacement batteries and to enable the replacement to be done with commercially available tools. I'd wager the overwhelming majority of phones are already compliant, pending availability of a replacement battery from the manufacturer. I'm quite confident I could replace the battery on my Sony Xperia 1 iii with a heat gun and my basic iFixit toolkit.
• BoredPositron 5mo ago
  This is not about charging your phone.
• dpc_01234 5mo ago
  Non-technical users might not be aware of much. E.g. most peoples don't really think or ask that their tap water be free of cholera and other harmful substances, and yet we might want to make sure that continues to be the case. So it's not strong argument worth arguing about. The real argument is - how much a compromise a replaceable vs non-replacable battery is. And I suspect the biggest part of non-replaceable batteries is actually superficial vanity considerations (gee, is it 7mm or 6.5mm), and planed obsolescence making more money. But the technical aspects are still a valid debate.
• DirkH 5mo ago
  If we run this experiment and most people say they wish they could replace their battery would you concede you are actually the one with idiosyncratic preferences?
• beAbU 5mo ago
  Modern iPhone batteries are basically user replaceable are they not? They are metal encased and the adhesive can be electronically disabled. They don't seem "worse" to me? > this law will make phones _worse_ for most people Sometimes we have to acknowledge the externalities of our lifestyle and take things down a notch. Even if most throw out their old phones, now at least it'll be trivial to shuck these devices to get the battery for recycling, while sending the device for refurb or further recycling. A key component to effective recycling is separation, and this is one step in that direction
• vincnetas 5mo ago
  bookmarking this to revisit after couple years.
• bdlpx 5mo ago
  [dead]
• yumraj 5mo ago
  So I guess newer iPhones and iPad allow you charge up to 80%, which extends battery life, for idiosyncratic reasons? I’m sure there must have been a reason and demand for that. I guess I run my iPhone on low battery mode a lot, due to idiosyncratic reasons too. Maybe I do. Apple battery replacement costs anywhere from $70 (for a ~$400 phone) to $120 (for a ~$1000+ phone). In many global markets you can get a brand new phone for that much.
• prmoustache 5mo ago
  I don't know, I see people every day using old smartphonereachinfg for a power outlet everywhere they can because their phone do not last a day. Most think going to a shop to ask them to replace the battery will cost an arm. I think that law doesn't even go far enough, they should standardize a battery format. When like me you are used to open smartphones and replace batteries you realize how very similar they are all in footprint and could be compatible with each other with very minimal effort. If there were only a couple of standardized formats you could find new batteries in every small shop/airports whatever and easily have spares. Chance is that other electronic devices or toys would also adopt them.
• loup-vaillant 5mo ago
  > this law will force phone manufacturers to compromise the things that most people want in order to provide something that most people don't want. Okay, you're claiming two things: (i) replaceable batteries will compromise some other features, and (ii) most people want those features more than they want a replaceable battery. Can you name 3 of those features? I personally can't.
• toyg 5mo ago
  > One of the most frustrating things about HN is that people seem so unaware of how idiosyncratic their preferences are. <proceeds to state opinions contrary to what the overwhelming majority of elected representatives of the people of Europe just expressed> Were you trying to prove your own point?
• nancyminusone 5mo ago
  >compromise the things that most people want in order to provide something that most people don't want. What sort of compromise do you envision? I mean, toasters still have a crumb tray on the bottom that open so you can clean them even though no one does. Am I "missing out" on sleek, streamlined toaster designs because manufacturers feel they have to put a door in the bottom?
• ArlenBales 5mo ago
  Consumers may not know that a feature is something they want until they don't have it anymore. Invert the situation. If every iPhone in history had a replaceable battery, until 2027 when the newest iPhone did not have a replaceable battery, I think we can all agree that the uproar would be significant.
• fnoef 5mo ago
  I had a perfectly fine iPhone 11 I bought new. The first thing I replaced in it was battery. I had to pay for “genuine” Apple battery + certified laboratory. The price was higher than the price of my iPhone as second hand, but I liked this phone. Then I sold it, because I ran out of 64GB space. If I could add an sd card, I would probably use this phone longer, instead of contributing to consumerism and creating more e-waste. I wish that people would think about sustainability and using their devices for longer rather than chasing “new and shiny” every year Apple releases the “best iPhone we ever made”
  • kbelder 5mo ago
    The ideal phone for me: * sd card slot * headphone jack * replaceable battery * THICK for larger battery and structural integrity.
• PunchTornado 5mo ago
  what are you on about? most people i know have 4 year old phones which are just fine and want only the battery changed. my phone was 6 years old this year and it hurt me that I had to change it because of the battery. otherwise it was a perfectly fine phone.
• joe_the_user 5mo ago
  I provide food and services for the homeless in my area working with friends outside of any non-profit. That the phone people get from non-profits become unusable in some number of months is a big complaint. Batteries dying is significant part of this (lack of security updates is another part). Replaceable batteries are something that a lot of people would want (especially the option to have several batteries). Just as much, there's a certain HN complaint form that basically goes "any complaint about the crap that sold now is just programmer/civil-rights-fan/etc idiosyncrasy, real people want exactly this crap 'cause markets never lie".
• arendtio 5mo ago
  I appreciate such a law very much. I find it very irritating how people always want new phones. And I think there are three major reasons to upgrade to a new phone: 1. lifestyle 2. software updates 3. battery capacity While it is hard to change the first, the other two can be influenced by laws. And while the second is rather complex, the third is quite simple. Since the manufacturers have few incentives to produce phones with replaceable batteries, there are very few options on the market to choose from. Most have other major limitations, like slow CPU/GPU, crappy cameras, or else. So eliminating one factor of unnecessary waste is absolutely a good idea. I just hope it doesn't backfire in some weird way. And I don't say that replaceable batteries don't come at a cost, they do. But that cost is much lower than many assume and not that easy to measure, because currently, you can compare only apples with oranges.
• QuantumNomad_ 5mo ago
  > by the time batteries wear out, most people are going to want a new a phone Why? My phone works almost perfectly still three and a half years after I bought it. Except the battery lasts shorter. If I go to battery health in settings it says: > Important Battery Message > Your battery's health is significantly degraded. An Apple Authorised Service Provider can replace the battery to restore full performance and capacity. > Find Your Service Options Aside from my current phone, I also have a very old iPod Touch. That old iPod Touch would have been usable still as well, if it wasn’t for the fact that it takes somewhere around 10 minutes of active use until it goes from full charge to zero charge. In other words, unusable for bringing with me anywhere plainly because of the battery. Replaceable battery would have been great. Both for my iPhone and my iPod Touch. Even if it meant they would have been a bit thicker than they currently are.
• 2III7 5mo ago
  How the hell can we have more data on people replacing their batteries if the batteries are not user replaceable? Most people want new phones because of shit software updates and marketing not because out of necessity.
• gib444 5mo ago
  Totally agree. It makes you wonder who the EU polled regarding this initiative? Who initiated it and why?
• yobbo 5mo ago
  > this law will make phones _worse_ for most people Not really. The battery just needs to have a connector rather than soldered, and no other things blocking the battery once the back-case is opened. Realistically, a service shop will do the replacement like how watch-batteries are typically replaced.
• shaky-carrousel 5mo ago
  > One of the most frustrating things about HN is that people seem so unaware of how idiosyncratic their preferences are. If you stood on the street corner and asked every passerby what they would change about their phone, I think you would be there all day before someone said "I wish I could replace the battery". Yes, and if you asked every passerby what feature they would like to add to the streets, I think you would be there all day before someone said "I wish there were more accessibility ramps". Luckily for us, we're not governed by "passerby" people.
• ohbleek 5mo ago
  A quick google will show you’re relying too much on your own views of what people desire for phone improvements. This law will lead to much needed changes and improvements in a mature and arguably stale market.
• widowlark 5mo ago
  you act like making batteries disposable will fundamentally alter the usability of the phone.
• xdennis 5mo ago
  > If you stood on the street corner and asked every passerby what they would change about their phone, I think you would be there all day before someone said "I wish I could replace the battery". Not my experience at all. The (few) non-tech people I've talked to about phones soon getting batteries again like it. People believe the idea that non-removable batteries are a conspiracy by the phone companies to sell you more phones the same way cartels manipulated the lightbulb market (Phoebus cartel).
• Zak 5mo ago
  I moderate /r/flashlight. Something I've seen a substantial increase in over the past few years is people who are surprised to learn that it's possible to have a built-in charger in combination with a field-replaceable battery. It doesn't take much explaining; it just hadn't occurred to them because the devices they're used to don't work that way. People don't change batteries in their phones now because they'd need a heat gun and a soldering iron and they'd have even chances of starting a fire, breaking the phone, or succeeding in changing the battery without prior experience using those tools. A shop could do it reliably, but the shop will charge 100€ because it's time-consuming and error-prone. A 3-5 year old phone is often not worth 100€. When a battery change costs 25€ and takes 5 minutes, people will do it all the time even if they don't know that today.
  • snvzz 5mo ago
    re: flashlights. Still no real upgrade for hexbright, which is a shame. I wish they were still being made. Fortunately, mine are still fine, and I expect to be able to repair them should they break. (xtal is a common failure point apparently) Standard battery type is nice, but also has microusb charging port, the part that didn't age well. Perhaps new circuit boards (with usb-pd charging, usb-c connector and mems oscillator) will be the way forward. It's definitely easier to order a pcb than the housing.
    • Zak 5mo ago
      I suppose it depends on what you want out of a flashlight. It's kind of cool that you can flash the firmware over USB, but the rest of it is middling, and there are quite a few flashlights today running open source firmwares with exposed flashing pads. Regulated, open source, flashable, USB-charging, and a standardized battery describes most lights from https://www.firefly-outdoor.com/ https://www.firefly-outdoor.com/
      • snvzz 5mo ago
        The hexbright's body is the main thing. The insides could be completely new. My plan is to keep it running. Perhaps replace the emitter by a more efficient one at some point, and repair anything as needed. If somebody bothers to make a better board someday, I will upgrade to that as long as it is still open hardware.
• LtWorf 5mo ago
  LOL, please do the experiment for real and be amazed! :D
• jason_oster 5mo ago
  The biggest problem with my phone is that it took too long to find one that isn't comically large (I have an iPhone 13 Mini). The second biggest problem is that the battery is not what it used to be. It lasts 2 days on a full charge instead of 3. The battery will need to be replaced in a few years. I feel like I will be using this phone until it crumbles to dust. Apple shows no interest in making decently sized phones. I would support the EU enacting legislation to enforce at least one phone in each lineup to be no bigger than 60 mm x 125 mm. (iPhone Mini is ok, but it's still bigger than what I prefer.) Smaller and lighter phones are an accessibility concern. Miniaturization has been the goal for computers since they were invented. It is incomprehensible that designers and manufacturers are reversing course. My options right now are basically do nothing or replace my phone with a watch.
• MisterTea 5mo ago
  > because this law will force phone manufacturers to compromise the things that most people want Hopefully this will help bring the headphone jack back.
• liquid_thyme 5mo ago
  Screen and battery replacements are by far the number one repair service that people avail. The data is clear. I'm afraid you're completely wrong.
• littlestymaar 5mo ago
  > One of the most frustrating things about HN is that people seem so unaware of how idiosyncratic their preferences are. Least self-aware HN user out there. Do you really think the European commission got lobbied hard by HN folks? This law will make phones better for most people, who would rather keep their phone for a decade rather than having to every three years buy a new phone optimized for some vanity metric that looks good on Engadget reviews.
• 31337Logic 5mo ago
  Buddy. You are on the Hacker News. It's like you wanted to get skewered on purpose. Of course we want replaceable batteries! Anyone over the age of 30 will remember the convenience of throwing another charged battery in your car/backpack/briefcase and heading out for the day. Carefree. Also, what a treat to be able to properly restart or power off my phone (no, I mean REALLY power it off) by ripping out the battery! What's next, having TV remote controls with non-removable rechargeable batteries, for the "convenience"?! Gimme a break. I love tech progress, but leave your hands off my removable batteries! And my 3.5mm audio jack, now that I think about it! :-)
• esalman 5mo ago
  In last 5 years or so me and my wife have purchased 5 new phones. Except for one, where the phone slipped from a flat countertop due to having a glass back, in all other cases the reason was battery life getting worse, with no other issues with the phone at all. So I have to disagree with you here.
• orbital-decay 5mo ago
  "Normal people" (tiresome and unnecessarily reductive meme) do not necessarily care about how it's implemented, but they certainly care about planned obsolescence, which is the target of this law. It just another way to enforce reasonable service life and reduce e-waste. That's the goal of this regulation.
• bobajeff 5mo ago
  Imagine getting a car without a replaceable battery.
• greggoB 5mo ago
  Everything you just described as "what people want" translated in my brain to "what they're programmed to want". Some products on the market are there to address some inherent need or desire people have; some are for more manufactured needs/desires. To me the intent of this law looks to put a floor on the environmental cost of providing for the manufactured variants.
• jeppester 5mo ago
  With the battery no longer a concern, more people will opt to buy used phones rather than cheap new phones. Som even if most people change phone before the battery gets really bad (I doubt that this is really the case), the end result will still be that fewer new phones will be purchased. Now we just need a law that requires hardware makers unlock their devices when they stop providing updates.