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I maintain a 17 year old ThinkPad

• pengaru 1y ago
  Writing this on my 16GB RAM i7 X230... but I really miss my X61s w/SXGA+ LED mod, perfect keyboard for my sized hands.
• p_ing 1y ago
  A 17 year old ThinkPad is going to have extremely limited utility for today's applications. You can browse the web****, sure. You can replace parts, yes. But it still performs like dogshit for today's applications. That said, I maintain a G4 Cube running an outdated OS to play Sim City and Sim Tower. And it's "upgraded" as much as possible. ****JavaScript not included
  • willjp 1y ago
    It doesn’t have to be 17 years old though. I think the point he’s making is that it’s still solving problems for him. I have one that’s 12 years old. It just does what I need to. Parts are easily replaceable. I keep doing the cost/benefit of upgrading but I just don’t need it.
  • ekianjo 1y ago
    > But it still performs like dogshit for today's applications That says more about how unoptimized are today's applications than the capabilities of the machine
  • neilv 1y ago
    Web, including JavaScript, should work fine on that laptop. Until recently, my daily driver was the T500 (the larger screen version of the T400 in the article), and it worked fine for everything except GPU. (I actually downgraded to the T500 years ago, because I was pissed off about the Intel Management Engine.) Recently, I upgraded from the T500 to the T520, which is the last ThinkPad with a non-chiclet keyboard. It works fine for everything except GPU and fitting inside many backpacks. With ThinkPads of this era, you want to get a high-spec variant of the model (e.g., top-res IPS display), and then make the following upgrades: * SSD * run Linux * run uBlock Origin (and block most of the third-party surveillance, which hurts performance) (JS runs fine, so long as you're not running multiple dueling adtech slimeballs' intimate mouse trackers) * max out the RAM (you don't need that much for Linux, unless you're using an exceptionally bloated desktop option, but it's cheap, and you can use it to keep filesystems like ~/.cache off your SSD ) * (optional) replace the CPU with a more optimal one for power draw or heat, or maybe for compute (these are socketed in most models) * (optional, not for the faint of heart) install Coreboot, and then you have more WiFi upgrade options
    • RavSS 1y ago
      You can use the T420/T520's keyboard in a T430/T530 with modifications to the firmware, some plastic around the keyboard part itself, and the ribbon cable (just pin isolation with tape). It lets you go with Ivy Bridge over Sandy Bridge. I have a T430 with the T420's keyboard and it lasted me 7 years of daily use before battery life became too big of an issue for me (even with a single DDR3L RAM module and a slice battery), so I put it aside. The typing experience was really excellent. Upgrading the CPU to a quad-core model (ideally one that consumes 35W over 45W) is one of the best upgrades to make for anyone still using these machines.
      • neilv 1y ago
        Do you know an exceedingly credible source for the firmware modifications? (Last time I looked, it had the air of the XDA-style culture: "To root your phone, download this package from a `.ru` piracy site, run the `.exe` on your PC, then install and run the closed blobs on your phone, including rooting and replacing your bootloader with one, we know you will trust us." Though, in their defense, if they were organized crime, they would probably make an effort to look more legitimate, rather than gratuitously suspicious. And all the forum comments were always lapping it up, appearing to be doing reckless things, while removing much of the demand and contributors for more-credible efforts.)
        • RavSS 1y ago
          That is the general nature of reverse engineering efforts, but this one has been documented enough that you don't need to blindly trust completely random executables or code from strange places. You can manually recreate the process of building a patch for the embedded controller instead of just following instructions: https://github.com/hamishcoleman/thinkpad-ec https://github.com/hamishcoleman/thinkpad-ec. Here's the presentation by the author himself at linux.conf.au (what used to be the biggest local Linux conference for those of us in Australia and NZ): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fzmm87oVQ6c https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fzmm87oVQ6c. This is of course not supported by Lenovo. Unlocking the BIOS is definitely more like what you described. It's the price to pay for freely playing around with processor power limits, getting AES-NI instruction set support, etc. I have not checked since 2019, so there might be a clearer way.
  • boneitis 1y ago
    This is the asterisk that always stands out to me with the raving posts about how great people's dinosaur Thinkpads are. Yes, if I don't have to keep multiple browser windows, video calls, Slack, and whathaveyou open, then I too can get by with an ancient Thinkpad. If it is enough for you, then all the power to you. I am sincerely supportive of the fact that you can stick it to today's consumerist, disposable tech industry. Here I am on my T480s with 40 GB memory (8 is soldered) and the highest tier CPU for the Thinkpad gen (apparently these are soldered on too), and it's a drag. I'm trying to scrape by until I can start thinking about saving up for a new Framework.
    • gabegm 1y ago
      Out of curiosity, what is your ThinkPad struggling with?
• acosmism 1y ago
  I still use my t440s all the time to this day. it is durable, versatile, does exactly what it does and does it well. not tied down to its firmware, software - i can't think of the analogy off the bat but its like several other things that "just work" (maybe indoor plumbing or something) so well you forget about them
• 51Cards 1y ago
  My W530 is 13-ish years old and it's still my daily driver. It doesn't travel anymore (now wired into my desk) but still works great running Win 10. I code on this thing all day and so far have only had to replace a fan and give it an SSD upgrade.
• CursedSilicon 1y ago
  I wish that Framework could attain the same lofty levels of "second hand market success" that ThinkPads enjoy. A lot of the "Thinkpad fans" I've talked to genuinely want them, or respect them for similar reasons they enjoy the ThinkPad legacy. ThinkPads are durable but every day they get older, slower and more difficult to source parts for as collectors entrench themselves and the requirements of operating systems (and the "modern web") worsen Framework laptops are wonderful, modern and (arguably?) cheaper to own in the long-term thanks to being able to replace components, particularly the entire mainboard as time progresses. *But* they're a tiny boutique manufacturer. Their barrier to entry is that of a pretty hefty modern laptop, versus buying a T420 for practically pennies and performing all kinds of aftermarket "mods" to it. 51nb's "FrankenPads" especially breathe incredible new life into old IBM and Lenovo stock. Combine this with the fact that being the "defacto business laptop" for nearly three decades (along with perhaps Dell) means there's enough Thinkpads on Earth to probably stretch end-to-end around the moon and back
  • al_borland 1y ago
    Framework is still very new. It takes time to build a brand. I hope their new Framework 12 hits it big with the mainstream. It sounds like it’s targeted as the school/chromebook market, but as an adult I’m also interested. I’m hoping when the pre-orders go up next week it’s priced in a way that makes it an impulse buy. I really don’t need it, but I want to support the company and their mission.
    • joseda-hg 1y ago
      As someone that had been thinking on buying both a tablet and some sort of chromebook for light web based workflows on the go, they 100% have my attention I will say, it has weirded me out that they have been so cagey about the pricing in particular, which AFAICT, is the only thing not public about the laptop before the pre order date
      • chairmansteve 1y ago
        Probably worried about tariffs. Now they know.
• cheeseomlit 1y ago
  I still use my t420 all the time for one reason and that's the keyboard. I can't stand chiclet keys and that's all there is now
• dpedu 1y ago
  > A [macbook] battery replacement involves carefully prying out a glued component. Can't speak to every model, but it's not always like this. I just swapped the battery on my 2020 M1 Macbook Air, and it's much easier now. The battery is glued to a metal tray that unscrews and lifts out of the laptop. It is discarded with the old battery. The tray is also held down with pull-tab adhesive strips, but they are trivial to remove - similar to what "command hooks" have. https://www.ifixit.com/Guide/MacBook+Air+13-Inch+Late+2020+Battery+Replacement/142559#s287196 https://www.ifixit.com/Guide/MacBook+Air+13-Inch+Late+2020+B... I've also done a battery swap on a 2015 Macbook Pro 15" - much harder. Each individual battery cell is glued directly to the chassis, and removing each one involves a lot of prying and praying it doesn't puncture or decide to detonate. Back to the macbook air, I've also replaced the screen and USB-C ports. It's not that bad.
  • mrheosuper 1y ago
    I remember I had to take the whole MB out just to replace speaker on my Macbook pro 2015. It does not help that there were multiple different screw type
  • asimovDev 1y ago
    The USB-C ports are relatively easy to swap thankfully. What scares me is that on non Apple laptops they are sometimes soldered onto the motherboard which is asinine for such a high wear item. I heard it's prevalent in modern ThinkPads but I am not sure if it has changed recently
  • testing22321 1y ago
    What replacement battery did you get for the 2020 M1 air?
    • dpedu 1y ago
      No specific brand, I had just searched ebay for "2020 macbook air m1 battery" and picked a seller with good ratings. Cost about $40. It's not even advertised as being a genuine apple one.
• pram 1y ago
  I appreciate the author going over the "strategic value" of both, but it seems like a desktop would fulfill the same purpose (modularity, repairability, linux) as the ThinkPad? Or, considering he obviously requires a more powerful machine than the T400 for LLMs and video editing: the MacBook? What is the point of two laptops in this case?
• comment_ran 1y ago
  Pretty much the same trajectory. I started at my T420 around 2010 and that time I just main laptop, computer. Then, as I have a more powerful desktop, this T420 becomes my secondary computer and I started to experience Linux with it. After almost 15 years I end up converted it into a PVE host and run just one or two virtual machines on it and it's quite durable I can still do functional work on it, quite remarkable how a computer can last so long.
• TacticalCoder 1y ago
  [dead]
• ajxs 1y ago
  My x220 has traveled around the world multiple times. It's been through dozens of airport scanners, dropped multiple times, and shared a few cups of coffee with me by accident. It just keeps on kicking. My x220 running Debian is actually quicker and more responsive than my friend's modern Lenovo running Windows. I'd be tempted to upgrade to a lighter and thinner laptop, but I'm too attached to the keyboard.
  • Phenix88be 1y ago
    I have one too! The 720p is just not enough, I wish I could at least have a 1080p :(
    • Retr0id 1y ago
      It's possible to upgrade the panel - mine has a 1080p IPS.
      • VK538FY 1y ago
        Does it involve the LDVS board that you solder to the main board? I'm looking for a good source and one that doesn't cause problems with the setting for brightness.
        • Retr0id 1y ago
          Yes, got mine a few years back from taobao (I no longer remember specific details). IIRC the brightness control Just Worked however the chip in charge of that seems to have failed at some point and now I'm stuck at 100% brightness (I no longer daily-drive this thinkpad so I haven't bothered fixing it properly). Unsure if it's down to a design fault with the mod board or I just got unlucky.
  • neilv 1y ago
    One of the few things I'd change about the X220 is the strange 2-piece lid. (What looks like a cosmetic flourish in the lid is actually a seam.) Two of the four used X220 units I've bought arrived with the lid end piece wiggling, because it was no longer firmly attached to the main piece. The X200 and almost every other ThinkPad managed just fine with a 1-piece lid, including being rugged against drops, so I don't know why the change.
• deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
• senectus1 1y ago
  ha! I have one of those at home. I think it still works too.
• shmerl 1y ago
  Side note, but I noticed now practically all Thinkpads are available with Linux as an option. That's a big improvement from when Windows tax was practically unavoidable with them.
  • oever 1y ago
    I recently tried to buy a ThinkPad with trackpoint and a high-resolution screen. The X1 AMD G5 is available with Linux but the 2880x1800 version is only available with Windows. Initially, I thought there was no 2880 version, because the OS selection comes before the screen selection in the Lenovo configuration tool. Once Linux is selected, the 2880 version disappears. It's not been delivered yet, but I'm sure installing Linux will not be a problem. A ThinkPad with ~14" 4k OLED touchscreen and trackpoint and AMD processor is what I was looking for, but those do not seem to exist.
    • kev009 1y ago
      The 4k OLED and touchscreen kind of cancel each other out if you care about maximum optical quality.
    • Melatonic 1y ago
      At 14" doesn't 4K just seen like crazy overkill ? Sure on a laptop your face might be closer to the screen - but that's a lot of pixels in a small form factor. I'm still rocking 1440P 27" monitors for my desktop and find those good enough (although at that size you can see a benefit from 4K for sure).
• markus_zhang 1y ago
  I still use my T470S as a Ubuntu 22.04 development machine. I bought it from my pre-pre-company as a used one back in 2022 and it is a fantastic laptop for personal projects. The only update I did was a 16GB RAM to up the memory to 20GB. I also bought a new battery as one of the two was dead. I wish the graphic driver could be better as playing Youtube videos constantly crashes Firefox on Ubuntu. Other than that I have nothing to complain. I have been using it for 3+ years with zero maintenance (I didn't even bother to clean the fan) and it never failed me. I have a second "new" Dell workstation laptop standing by just in case it breaks down. But it is a Windows machine with 32GB of memory, so I'll probably use WSL2 instead.
  • arp242 1y ago
    > I wish the graphic driver could be better as playing Youtube videos constantly crashes Firefox on Ubuntu Do you have the xf86-video-intel driver installed? Try removing that package and just relying on the kernel modesetting DRI driver instead. That's been the recommended way to run Intel graphics for long time now. I don't know if that's your issue, but it this caused a lot of weird issues on my x270 with Firefox.
    • anthk 1y ago
      Get the oibaf PPA and dist-upgrade.
  • Melatonic 1y ago
    You could also try turning off hardware acceleration although that might kill performance. Not sure if the T470S had the Nvidia option but disabling Optimus (and going either fully with the Nvidia chip or integrated intel GPU) can also solve issues sometimes
• vvpan 1y ago
  Off-topic about the Nassim Nicholas Taleb opening: Does anybody else feel like he just restates obvious things in a more formalized and somewhat pompous way? I do not mind formalization but I feel like I am supposed to swoon over it as if some profound truth, that was not already implied in our every day thinking, was being revealed.
  • blatantly 1y ago
    I don't think it is obvious to everyone that a 20 year old laptop had a better survival chance over the next year than a new one. Most people think old is more fragile. Sometimes it is though (e.g. parts for a plane need to be replaced every X hours of service)
    • pazimzadeh 1y ago
      at some point is it even the same laptop? I don't think the original laptop has a better chance of surviving
      • darkwater 1y ago
        It's not strictly THAT or ONE laptop though. It's the concept of old Thinkpad laptops in general: since there is already a big enough refurbishment market active, parts will still be produced or stored and sold, thus permitting that kind of laptop to be repaired and survive. Even if you apply the "ship of Theseus" logic, it won't matter. It won't be the same original Thinkpad, but it will still be a Thinkpad (flies like a Thinkpad, sings like a Thinkpad...)
  • MonkeyClub 1y ago
    > just restates obvious things in a more formalized and somewhat pompous way That's sort of the premise of his Black Swan idea, namely that extraordinary things appear quite obvious in retrospect. I've read a few of his books, including Antifragile that's referenced in TFA, and he does go beyond merely restating (or formalizing) the obvious. But then again perhaps such things are not generally obvious and need to be stated explicitly, we just happen to be part of a subset that is more aware of them.
• ggm 1y ago
  I have an x31 from 2003/4 I'd love to rescue but the bios won't boot.
• frfl 1y ago
  Where does one find a replacement battery for a thinkpad that doesn't die after 6 months? I spent $100 on what I thought was a legit and reputable local middleman for laptop batteries (of course they just buy from China), but even then first battery was half dead on arrival, and second free replacement was dead in around just under a year with rapid capacity decline after 6 months.
  • pengaru 1y ago
    kingsener batteries from aliexpress have been highly recommended in the past, but I haven't bought any yet.
    • bigpeopleareold 1y ago
      I bought a few. Only one was decent and still use it. For one of them I had, it never calibrated correctly and I think it was surging the motherboard (backlight on my screen just stopped working one day, but the computer just would keep turning off with it, leading to a lot of 'hold the power button down to clear the capacitors') ... the other one just doesn't charge past 65% anymore. Maybe that's a calibration issue; it sat awhile. I am going to look at another vendor. Maybe GreenCell?
      • Melatonic 1y ago
        iFixit also sells batteries although I have no idea how good they are. I thought their toolsets were decent value for the money though (and they'll probably be around as a company for awhile).
• ChuckMcM 1y ago
  Heh, I've got a T440 [T420i, see edit] I'm running FreeBSD on. Definitely tank status. It is even one of the 'rare' HD ones. EDIT: I just turned it over to check and its a T420i Type 4177-X07 pretty much solid as a rock. I also discovered it would run with 16GB of RAM so there's that.
• zabzonk 1y ago
  ThinkPads back when were certainly good, sturdy machines, though I could never get along with the nipple. Another great older machine for me was the purple Sony Vaio - magnesium alloy, came with Win2K installed. I bought one, and then immediately bought another - the first I repurposed as a Linux server and I carried them both (easily) around for demoing this and that. My latest, which I think is going to be in the ThinkPad and Vaio class is my new Asus Zenbook - brilliant light chassis and great performance.
  • interloxia 1y ago
    Yes the T30's nipple was a bit strange. https://www.flickr.com/photos/dctaft/413198278/ https://www.flickr.com/photos/dctaft/413198278/ I quite like the cup style trackpoint even if it tended to leave a small circle on the screen. That particular laptop died in middle age due to motherboard hardware defects.
• ptek 1y ago
  I have a T43, slowly working on a VESA driver for NeXTSTEP 3.3 (Yes there is a driver for OpenStep 4.2). Using Ghidra and the source that Apple released. Final set up will be, NeXTSTEP3.3, DOS6.22 (AutoCAD R12, Matlab), WinXP (For Encarta 95 and Mindmaze) and NetBSD.
• cft 1y ago
  About 14 months after purchase, screen bezel of my MacBook cracked. Apparently there was a tiny food crumb jammed between the screen bezel and the keyboard bezel. It was then that I found out that the screen bezel is made of glass. And that Apple recommends to wipe the keyboard before closing the lid.
• interroboink 1y ago
  Having run some hardware for about 20 years (recently deceased), the problem that eventually happens is that newer OSes drop support for old hardware. If you hit some weird bug on your setup on a new OS release, there won't be anyone to help you fix it[1]. So then you're stuck on an old OS. In time, that means you can't run the latest userland software either, which relies on more modern OS features (eg: your Firefox will get increasingly out-of-date). That means the set of things you can do will eventually narrow and narrow. If you're only running programs that you have full control of, and can compile/fix locally, or where receiving security fixes &etc. don't matter, then you're good. But things are a bit more interconnected, these days. I do still enjoy running my hardware into the ground rather than tossing out perfectly good components every few years though (: [1] In my case, the boot loader stopped working for my hardware on FreeBSD 11.4
  • yjftsjthsd-h 1y ago
    > In my case, the boot loader stopped working for my hardware on FreeBSD 11.4 That's interesting/strange. Did you report it? I'd expect them to care about that serious of a breakage in a point release.
    • kjs3 1y ago
      Considering I've booted FreeBSD 11 on a Pentium Pro, I very much doubt "old hardware not supported" is really the GPs issue.
    • interroboink 1y ago
      I did! [1] There was some initial activity, and we got it narrowed down to a range of commits, but did not get any real smoking gun. To be fair, I also put in less effort once I found I could just copy the 11.3 loader and get things working. And also some stuff came up in my own life that prevented me from devoting more time to it, alas. It eventually got auto-closed for not being tagged to any non-EOL versions. I did recently confirm it was still a problem on newer releases, but that hardware died not long after, so I didn't pursue it. My best guess is that it was some BIOS-level oddity. It's also possible that it was due in some way to the hardware (slowly) dying; I can't be sure. But it was a very clear "worked on release X, stopped working on release Y (and beyond)" sort of behavior. [1] https://bugs.freebsd.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=257722 https://bugs.freebsd.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=257722
• throwaway0665 1y ago
  I got an x220 jumping onto the hype but it was too small and too slow to use. Even though I'd maxed out the RAM, replaced the solder paste and was running a lightweight i3 environment. I've only ever personally owned second hand Thinkpads and they're so great. But you should get the newest, reasonably priced one you can. There are so many affordable T480s/T470s out there or even the newer T14 models. They're still very serviceable and many still allow expansion with unsoldered RAM.
  • GolfPopper 1y ago
    I'm posting from an X220 i7-2620M @2.7Ghz with 12GB memory. Personally, I like the size, but recognize that's a matter of taste. But, what was it too slow to do? For high-end computing tasks, yes. But I haven't run into problems with anything short of Steam games with higher-end graphics requirements.
  • pbmonster 1y ago
    > I got an x220 jumping onto the hype but it was too small and too slow to use. ven though I'd maxed out the RAM, replaced the solder paste and was running a lightweight i3 environment. That's my only personal laptop, to the last detail. What are you doing that makes it feel slow? I might upgrade to a x270 for the USB-C charging and a full-HD display, but only when this one dies. Which might take another decade...
• VirusNewbie 1y ago
  Back in the day, I heard all sorts of great things about how durable Thinkpads were, I bought one with my hard earned money in ~2004 when doing contact web development work. It was my least reliable laptop I've ever had. My Vaio notebooks always lasted quite a bit longer. Eventually got a macbook and haven't gone back, but yeah, the one Thinkpad I owned was the least reliable computing device I've bought in the ~40 years of my lifetime.
• koinedad 1y ago
  Something about the font on this blog is not friendly to my eyes.
  • Willingham 1y ago
    Absolutely. On mobile, the letters are too thin, certainly less accessible for us folks with eyesight issues.
• tyushk 1y ago
  I run NixOS on a coreboot-ed T420 and I absolutely love everything on the outside, but it really shows its age when compared to the display on my Macbook or it comes to running heavier software ie. rust-analyzer, Chrome, or Nix builds. If Lenovo were to release a modern T420-like, with identical chassis, battery system and similar IO port variety, but a modern display, modern internals (replaceable SSD! soldered RAM at least has a case for performance) and a modern camera, cash would evaporate out of my wallet. I remember there was a person [1] modding T60/T61s into "T700"s with 11th gen Intel chips. Unfortunately it looks like the project's been quiet since 2022. Hopefully there'll be more who try. [1] https://www.xyte.ch/t700-crowdfunding/ https://www.xyte.ch/t700-crowdfunding/
  • kombine 1y ago
    T14 Gen 5 AMD is perhaps the current best you can go for with non-soldered RAM.
    • theodric 1y ago
      I have a P14s Gen 5 AMD, which afaik is just a T14 with some certifications, and it's flimsy. The whole chassis is plastic and quite flexible. It's also currently at a Lenovo service center because the battery lasted a whole month before failing and claiming to be "non-genuine." ThinkPads ain't what they were. My x230 is still going.
      • kombine 1y ago
        I wasn't aware of their build quality degradation. I've been using T14s Gen 3 for a year now and I thoroughly enjoy it, the chassis is magnesium and really sturdy. Something must have happened around Gen 5 time.
        • bigpeopleareold 1y ago
          The worst for me was also my first one, T570. Two motherboard changes because of a flex-y body that put too much pressure on the hard drive connector. I had to use it for a few months because my main computer had to be fixed. I thought I can get more time out of it - nope. That flex-y body probably put too much pressure on something else and after many attempts (for some reason) of resetting the CMOS battery and using it a little, the thing would go right into a boot loop. I bought a new T480 (can use the battery from the T570! :D ) and this is soo much sturdier. Also have a T470p -- besides my screen issue, that thing is a really sturdy. I have a P14s Gen 3 (so basically a T14s with the power-hungry GPU :D ) from work. I don't think the fit and finish is great, but it properly feels sturdy at least.
• ivraatiems 1y ago
  I love these old ThinkPads. I refurbish and sell them all the time. Just moments before writing this, I finished fixing up a T580; earlier today I did a heatsink replacement on a W510 which is going strong with an SSD and 20GB RAM. The older they are, the better they are, but even the modern ones are still pretty good. Like the OP mentions, the market for parts is strong and it's easy to get what you need. Then when you go to sell them, they sell for a good amount. That W510 is worth at least $100 in its current condition.
  • trompetenaccoun 1y ago
    >The older they are, the better they are Everyone agrees the build quality used to be better (my grandpa already said this about appliances from his youth). But one thing I almost never see discussed is the power consumption of these old devices. Older CPUs often double as room heaters. Modern ones, especially the Apple M-series, have become a lot more efficient. So while I agree that modern laptops suck in many ways, I would do the math to see if it's actually cheaper to buy and use an older computer. Maybe not if you're in Qatar or Russia but some countries have extremely high electricity costs.
    • ivraatiems 1y ago
      It just isn't really a measurable impact against an overall picture. At maximum, a T580 can draw 44 watts. 8 hours per day, 365 days a year, at 50 cents a kWh (quite expensive for the US), that's $65 a year. That's a several-year-old computer already. The W520 can draw a much higher (but still low relative to a desktop) 150 watts. The cost per year to run it would then be around $220/year - but again, that's assuming maximum power draw for much of the day every day. Your home refrigerator uses more than twice that. For most people, I don't see this cost increase as a problem.
      • ninalanyon 1y ago
        My refrigerator doesn't use anything like 300 W average. An IKEA 310 l fridge is rated at less than 100 kWh per year. Even if you add a 210 l upright freezer to it is is still less than 300 kWh per year. That's 300 kWh / (365 * 24 h) = 34 W
• Vaslo 1y ago
  I have one of these that was a tablet and touchscreen from my mba program in 2008. I still have it and put some version of Linux command line only (peppermint maybe) and it still works. Haven’t touched it in a few years. Honestly was never that impressed by it and have had to replace the fans on it multiple times but it’s still kicking while other laptops are not.
• coro_1 1y ago
  From what I know the entire purpose of the Macbook "Pro" line is literally that they're made to be modular. They were at least. I maintain a 2011 Pro. The build quality is noticeably nicer than the cheaper chassis they produce today. The experience itself is actually much nicer too, smoother, feels better. Added, modern displays have great resolution. But the aged units carry an interesting and rich in depth projection ability you don't find today.
  • rmnclmnt 1y ago
    Agreed. Brought back to life my MBP 2015 last summer (battery replacement, keyboard replacement, thermal paste, etc) and thanks to OpenCore Legacy Patcher, now running latest MacOS versions ensuring at least 3 years more of security patches. Also these machines run Linux and Windows pretty fine
    • dmwilcox 1y ago
      Wow! Just discovered OpenCore Legacy Patcher! My wife's ten year old Macbook Air can get updates!! Thank you for the tip this will help a lot since it is not the "year of the Linux desktop" for her. :)
      • rmnclmnt 1y ago
        Try to give it a shot first on a dedicated partition if you can, then make the switch (IME, I used the old SSD drive for that, then used the 1TB one for daily usage with OCLP). Pretty smooth for most users apparently. Good luck, keep repairing and maintaining old electronics!
  • maratc 1y ago
    Modularity hasn't been the proclaimed goal for the Pro line, as far as I can remember. Granted, they were modular once. Today, not so much. The RAM is literally sitting on the die of the chip that includes the CPU and the GPU. This allows for tremendous increases in performance, but RAM upgradeability is sadly out of question.
  • 1y ago
• BrenBarn 1y ago
  I'm really bummed to see how newer ThinkPads have given up that modularity. Some components are necessarily more integrated, and I was never going to be too sad if it was easier to buy a new laptop than to replace the CPU. But the fact that you could, for instance, trivially replace the hard drive made it ludicrously easy to get a lot of extra mileage out of old ThinkPads.
• rkagerer 1y ago
  I still drive a Dell Precision M6600 from 2011, and liken the build quality, robustness and modularity of that era of the product line to the Thinkpads being discussed here. I'm overdue to upgrade, but know I won't love its replacement anywhere near as much.
• ipv6ipv4 1y ago
  I have a PowerBook titanium G4 from 2003 that I can boot but never bother because it's not worth the power consumption.
  • dmwilcox 1y ago
    Really??? I had an iBook from 2001, and put Linux on it, but power consumption was definitely the best of laptops in that entire era. What could it be, like 20-30 watts? Motorola PPC processors weren't exactly heat beasts (or speed demons lol). I'd be curious about how yours has held up. I overclocked my iBook back in the day to play DivX (bumped FSB from 66 to 100mhz) and it eventually cooked around 2010.
• namirez 1y ago
  I still have my T61 thinkpad from 2007. Other than the dead battery, it works great.
  • jmclnx 1y ago
    I purchased a battery for my T61 from GHU Electronics a year ago. So far no issues.
• ruleryak 1y ago
  I booted up my Thinkpad 760 XL from 1997 recently and let it run for a couple days. My WinZip was more than 9000 days past expiration, and it counted up one by one, the number just spinning ever upward for the better part of half an hour. 2 of the 3 batteries I had for it still charged to above 90% and drained at the normal rate, so I could still run it unplugged for around 6 hours. The batteries were modular, so you could have a cdrom, floppy, or battery in the first bay and a battery in the second bay. I normally ran it with 2 batteries and an external pcmcia cdrom that ran on double-a's. For a 28 year old laptop, it was still incredibly usable.
• zie 1y ago
  Reading this from my t420s, it's only 11yrs old.
• ed_mercer 1y ago
  There’s nothing out there that matches the bold business look and feel of old thinkpads, my personal favorite being the x61. These machines are so well-built and beautiful, and I respect and understand the decision to try and keep them running. But I would respect a restomod more =)
• quailfarmer 1y ago
  The tightness of hardware integration isn't a bug, it's genuinely a feature; In fact, it's the defining feature that makes Apple hardware great. Socketed RAM, CPU, and Storage just weren't worth the tradeoffs, namely size, weight, cost, and performance. Including those modular interfaces just wasn't worth it when the internal interfaces would be obsolete within 5 years, and the average user was replacing sub-components 0 times over the life of the device. The user being able to swap parts easily is _neat_ but it's just not an required feature, any more than the user of a car being able to easily hot-swap the engine. The right level of integration provides a tradeoff the maximizes reliability, cost, performance, and repair. A professional can still replace almost any component of a modern laptop, with a few thousand $ of specialized tools, and the battery, the only component with a fixed lifetime, can be easily replaced at home. I really hope Framework can continue to develop hardware with documented repairability, without falling for the myth that tight integration and quality are mutually exclusive.
  • globular-toast 1y ago
    Sad but true. Most people don't do much with the things they own, even if they can. Cars get serviced when they are told to, by someone else. No modifications are done. It's a weird thing to me because you get the downsides of ownership (liability for servicing and repairs) but none of the upsides. I wish more people took direct control over their lives. But many are just happy to not think and put up with whatever they get.
    • NullPrefix 1y ago
      >Cars [...] No modifications are done In a lot of places that is highly illegal
      • globular-toast 1y ago
        Really? Where? In the UK it's legal as long as it still passes MOT, but it should be declared to your insurer.
        • 1y ago
• yu3zhou4 1y ago
  Respect! I still run x230 with Linux for fun and so my kids can smash the keys on the keyboard (btw imho the keyboard feeling is better than in any laptop I used since then) and they feel good about themselves that they do the same thing as dad
• trod1234 1y ago
  I'm surprised they didn't mention how many of the Thinkpad models encase heatsink fan power cord in kapton tape and run that cord along and above the CPU/GPU shared heatsink. The modular assembly fails reliably and consistently roughly every 3 years. Sure I can get parts, but I don't think it actually shows what they are trying to say.
• kombine 1y ago
  I am daily driving ThinkPad T14s Gen3 AMD that I bought off Ebay a year ago. It was opened but new with warranty until 2026 and I only paid for 600 British pounds for it. It is not as repairable as their other models but it has a premium quality build, a modern CPU and full Linux compatibility. It is also the first generation of T14 when they returned 16:10 screens, this aspect ratio is a must for coding. ThinkPads are seriously underrated.
  • jbaiter 1y ago
    I have the same, and I'll probably use it until it's dead. I love the screen for the same reason you mention. It's a damn shame that they put the ugly reverse webcam notch on the newer ThinkPads, it ruins the complete look :-/
    • kombine 1y ago
      Yeah, same, mine has 32G RAM so it will last me 10 years or so, and hopefully Lenovo will remove the webcam notch by then :)
• 28304283409234 1y ago
  Wish there was a company that would build upgrades to old ThinkPads. A new main oard that would fit snugly in my x230 for example.
• zh3 1y ago
  T42, T60, T62, T420, T520 (multiples of some around the house) here, ending at the point they changed the keyboard. All running linux, the T420 and T520 (with SSD's) are fine with modern browsers while the older ones can be slow on bloated sites. I imagine the RAM might be an issue with multiple electron apps though. Only real maintenance is to use quality battery replacements (T420 lasts particularly well on batteries).
  • diggernet 1y ago
    Got a good source for safe, reliable battery replacements? Last time I needed one I discovered that Duracell made them, but it seems like they've stopped now.
    • zh3 1y ago
      In the UK, laptopsandspares.com "2-power" batteries have worked well for me. Subtel are pretty good too for UK/EU. https://www.laptopsandspares.com/pno/cbi3402a.html https://www.laptopsandspares.com/pno/cbi3402a.html https://www.subtel.co.uk/Battery-for-Lenovo-ThinkPad-Edge-14/Edge-15/ThinkPad-L412/L512/SL410/SL510/T410/T420-911081.html https://www.subtel.co.uk/Battery-for-Lenovo-ThinkPad-Edge-14...
• justmarc 1y ago
  These are very well built machines. To keep them running for decades Linux or other open source operating systems are pretty much the only choice. Not only for performance (which is better) but also because Windows will phase old hardware support out, it's just what they've always done, and will always continue doing.
• inatreecrown2 1y ago
  I bought a x220 about 10 years ago, and then a x230 a couple years ago. I also have a M1 Pro 16 inch but sometimes I enjoy working with the Thinkpads more than that. I really wish we could get a modern system that was build like the old Thinkpads. Especially regarding overall Size, repairability, connectivity and Keyboard.
  • inatreecrown2 1y ago
    Oh I forgot to add: they both work perfectly fine still!
• HexPhantom 1y ago
  This is a fantastic breakdown, and it nails something I think a lot of people feel but don’t always articulate: modern hardware is often objectively better, but not necessarily more resilient
• chilldsgn 1y ago
  I would love to get a ThinkPad as my next computer. My 2018 MacBook Pro is still working amazingly well, but I think I won't get a new one.
  • HexPhantom 1y ago
    There’s something satisfying about how fixable and straightforward they are
• globular-toast 1y ago
  This is why I've always preferred full size PCs. But if I were to get a laptop it sounds like it would be a 17 year old ThinkPad. Are the newer ones the same? This wasn't clear in the article. My PC is ten years old now. It's always run GNU/Linux and feels noticeably snappier than more recent machines with their bloated software. I've maxed out the CPU and RAM on it, overclocked it, added a nice AMD workstation GPU so I could run two 4k screens. I guess the thing is it really feels like I own it. I don't feel the same about phones and tablets.
• jxjnskkzxxhx 1y ago
  You can run an LLM on a Mac laptop?
  • 4fterd4rk 1y ago
    They're quite good at it, actually.
• brailsafe 1y ago
  I replaced my 2019 Macbook Pro 13" i5 16gb/256gb, with an M4 Pro 48gb/1TB 16". It just wasn't worth it anymore, it would stall opening some large files, the fans would spin up for inexplicable reasons, the screen was mid... it was just barely serviceable for my needs and wasn't worth being so frugal about anymore. Yes technically I could use something from the 80s to write text files if I wanted to most of the time, and I'm somewhat anxious about the possibility that some component soldered to the MB will short one day and kill my SSD, but it's still quite a worthwhile upgrade.
  • bzzzt 1y ago
    Are you worried about your SSD or the data on it? Making a backup will probably significantly reduce your anxiety ;)
    • brailsafe 1y ago
      I've got backups, but I'm more worried about the possibility that the computer will just kill itself one day, possibly resulting from some component failure.
• mgaunard 1y ago
  My computer is about that age as well, didn't know that was abnormal or special.
• DeathArrow 1y ago
  >Despite their age, these business-class laptop are still serviceable and useful for web browsing, ‘office work’, and light coding. In the world of Javascript frameworks where you download and execute 100 MB for a web application? In the world of desktop applications written in Javascript?
• DeathArrow 1y ago
  Here is someone using the same T400 as daily driver: https://www.reddit.com/r/thinkpad/comments/1hakly7/the_thinkpad_t400_is_an_excellent_daily_driver/ https://www.reddit.com/r/thinkpad/comments/1hakly7/the_think...
• wazoox 1y ago
  I have a ~2009 MacBook. It has a swappable battery (replaced once, dead again), and it was overall easily upgradable : it received a 4GB RAM stick to replace its original 2GB (unfortunately it can't manage more than 3.5GB), an SSD to replace its hard drive, and a new DVD drive as its superdrive failed. However its core2 Duo is really too slow for the modern web (either running MacOS or Linux), it takes almost a full minute to open a youtube link. I should probably downgrade to 32 bits Linux to get back some speed, but it won't become exactly snappy anyway :)
  • acquacow 1y ago
    You should be able to do a 2gig + 4gig stick combo. That's what I have in my 2008 Macbook pro, it runs 6GB just fine.
    • wazoox 1y ago
      It's a MacBook 5,1, not a MacBook pro. Its firmware only sees 3.5GB out of the 4GB installed, apparently it requires a BootROM upgrade to support more.
• nonrandomstring 1y ago
  Got a 2005 Asus EEPC netbook hanging around that is still part of the family and does useful work. Battery still good (replaced twice) and a few scratches on the screen and a broken key. Took it on the train with me recently as I just needed to read some PDF files and so scpd them to it and threw it in a bag. Looking after electronics, repairing stuff and treating it with respect is just part of my way. That one has an old Puppy Linux on it. Works fine. The original sense of the word "materialism" is a respect for material things - it's a very positive word. But it changed in the 80s (probably after Madonna's "Material Girl" :) to mean something negative and shallow.)
• zlagen 1y ago
  the most annoying thing about new laptops is how difficult is to find replacement batteries that can be trusted and work well. The battery situation is a downgrade compared to the previous pluggable ones.
• anshumankmr 1y ago
  I have an ASUS laptop that is borderline unusable in three years, the only saving grace is the RTX 3060 which I use for gaming and occasionally ollama.
• KronisLV 1y ago
  I currently have an M1 MacBook that I needed for some development (iOS) but now use it for notes and presentations and back up any data on my Nextcloud and homelab. Before that, I had a 210 EUR Polish laptop (I think whitelabel Chinese stuff) that would run Linux distros but would struggle with Wi-Fi. Frankly, that’s why I quite enjoy desktop PCs. Most of the hardware works as you’d expect and is both repairable (though to be honest I’ve just thrown away mobos in the past when they start misbehaving, possibly due to OC or daily use) and upgradable (I’ve gone from a Ryzen 3 1200 to Ryzen 7 5800X, even had an Intel CPU ages back; as well as from an RX 570 to B580, with a few more CPUs and GPUs in the middle). Different RAM, more drives etc., honestly it’s really pleasant, even if there’s this big box in my room that makes some noise.
• hkt 1y ago
  ThinkPad x230T owner here. I believe mine is 12 years old. By contrast, my son is 9 this year. Still, the kids are good to one another.
• p2detar 1y ago
  Man, I knew it was going to be a T-series machine. I used to own T400s and T430. Just hardcore pieces of hardware. I fine-tuned my T430 so that it boots Archlinux in about 3-4 seconds. Loved tinkering with Linux, Xfce and coding on that machine. As I grew older I switched to a MacBook, like many others but I miss that machine.
• badgersnake 1y ago
  I still use my X1 carbon gen 1. 8gb ram is getting a little bit tight these days though. Sadly not upgradable.
  • 369548684892826 1y ago
    If you've got linux on it have you tried enabling zram? I use it with aggressive settings on my X1 Carbon G6 with 8GB of RAM and it effectively gives me somewhere around 15GB of RAM. It does need a reasonably fast CPU, but probably worth trying on the Gen 1.
• linacica 1y ago
  My school recently (about 1.5 years ago) upgraded all their machines to ThinkPads(laptops & desktops)(11 gen Intel CPUs, desktops with A2000 GPUs), i seen other Thinkpad machines which try to copy Apple's design choices but these don't, they're big, thick, and have a lot of newer features, but also dropped some things which caused issues, for example: VGA port, there are quite few USB ports, if you know school environment you may know it's very rash environment we have HDMI to VGA adapters they constantly go bad because the cable is heavy & adapter too
• ccppurcell 1y ago
  Mine's about 13. I just upgraded from Ubuntu 22 to 24 and I'm regretting it a bit. on 22 I could watch downloaded films on an external monitor but not stream video. I could live with that. But now it seems 24 uses just a little more memory and watching a downloaded video on the monitor makes it shudder... :(
  • defraudbah 1y ago
    check out lubuntu/xubuntu/kubuntu, perfect for internet browsing and watching videos
• xtenduke 1y ago
  I too had a Thinkpad T400, in about 2013. Compiling my undergrad university course code made the music I was listening to skip. Modern software sucks, I can not imagine using a core2duo to do any task other than ssh/word processing
  • TonyTrapp 1y ago
    I was using a W500 (same generation) until 2018 or so. Upgraded RAM, installed an SSD, and it was my daily driver until the end. But already back then it started to become unbearbly slow especially with background procesesses like file syncing to different machines.
• lennychanuk 1y ago
  Same, but just because I'm lazy and cheap.
• einpoklum 1y ago
  Of course he does. Because of the robustness but also the keyboard. It's so annoying that they don't make decently build laptops, at all, these days. I'm hanging on to my X201. I bought it after I left my workplace where I had an X230; and I choose an earlier model because I wanted to upgrade rather than downgrade my computer. I am _much_ more satisfied with the X201 - because of the keyboard of course. IIANM, X220 is the best one of the X series. I replaced the HDD with an SSD about 8 years ago and expanded the RAM to 8 GB, and performance is tolerable. At the moment I'm running Lubuntu on it, but I'm thinking of switching to Q4OS. Now, sure, it's old; and yes, it's a bit rickety plastics-wise after having survived a fall from 3m at some point; and yes, the battery life is limited even after replacing it. But - I would take it over a modern piece-of-@#$%-keyboard machine any day of the week.
• the-mitr 1y ago
  My R60 which I got around in c. 2005 still works with Linux mint. I replaced the HDD and battery, but rest of the stuff including the orange light (to be used as night light) on top of screen frame still works! The hinges are a bit loose, so they need some support at times.
• johnisgood 1y ago
  I have an IBM T42, but I have the supervisor password set that I have long forgotten. I know about ways to clear the password (if they indeed work) but I have not gotten around it. If anyone knows a solution that does work, feel free to share. It is in a mint condition, not a single scratch, and I don't want to throw it out for sure. I have an old OpenBSD on it, it is perfect for some light C coding using mg. :)
  • jmclnx 1y ago
    From my corrupted memory, but I think what you need to do is unplug, pull out the battery, open it up and remove the cmos battery. There should be instructions on the WEB for that. At work, people alawys returned their Thinkpads with that PW set, so I know there is a fix. But if the password is a harddisk password, you are SOL :( You will need to get a new HD.
    • johnisgood 1y ago
      If I remember correctly that is not enough, because the supervisor password is stored on the EEPROM chip, so I supposedly have to short some pins. I found this: http://asknotes.com/2018/09/04/removing-supervisor-password-svp-on-thinkpad-t42/ http://asknotes.com/2018/09/04/removing-supervisor-password-... I am not certain, however! We will see.
      • jmclnx 1y ago
        Maybe that is what it was, you need to flash the BIOS ? For the tech people at work it was not a too difficult thing to do. I am no longer there, so I have no one to ask now :(
• arkensaw 1y ago
  I have an X201 (15 years old) and X220 (14 years) that I regularly use, running different flavors of linux. they've both been repaired and upgraded a few times. I'm spoiled by having an M2 Macbook as a daily driver - they can't match it for speed - but I love the ruggedness and resilience and I always will.
• yuzongen1234 1y ago
  [dead]
• AlecSchueler 1y ago
  My daily driver is an x200 upgraded to 4gb of RAM. It runs as well as it ever did except the web has become slower and slower in that everything became an app. Things like GMail and YouTube are slow but honestly still fine, and in the worst case scenario I can jump onto my phone. My main use these days is recording and mixing music through an interface from 2014. With Reaper the experience is even better than when I picked the laptop up back around 2010.
  • octygen 1y ago
    Its funny you say thay it's the browser slowing you down on your PC. I have an MBP from 2011 and the browser (Safari) is the only thing it can still run extremely well.
    • AlecSchueler 1y ago
      The latest browser itself runs fine as well as most old school websites like Hacker News, it's only the "web apps" that run slowly.
      • Melatonic 1y ago
        Can't throw more than 4gb in there ? Even 8 makes a big difference.
        • bikenaga 1y ago
          Lenovo only officially supported 4 GB, but you're right - the MB supports 8 GB, and I can confirm it works: that's what I have in mine. That and an SSD make a huge difference.
        • AlecSchueler 1y ago
          I maybe could but I dont feel like I'm missing anything with web apps honestly
• gherard5555 1y ago
  My T480 just doesn't want to die. I dropped it a lot, in my staircase, on concrete floor, accidentally emptied my whole mug of coffee on it (had to change the keyboard that time some keys were stuck). At some point I felt so confident I tried stepping on it when it was closed. So yeah this thing is pretty tough.
  • johnisgood 1y ago
    Seems like it is the laptop equivalent of the dumbphone Nokia 3310. :D
  • herbst 1y ago
    Except the USBc. Not sure if this applies to all models of the t480 series but that connector was slowly breaking down with each use, until it partially worked as charging slot and all usb functionality was lost. I went trough 4 different docks until I realized who the actual problem was, and the internet was full with similar issues once I knew what to look for. For some reason my nearly identical, slightly newer, X1 doesn't have these issues.
    • gherard5555 1y ago
      Yes, the connector is a little loose now and the cable comes off easily. But you can use the other connector so its not really an issue for me. Also it sounds like you may have the infamous issue where the firmware of the charging port cease functioning. I strongly recommend updating the charging port firmware to anyone reading this if you have a T480.
• mtlmtlmtlmtl 1y ago
  It's not a classic thinkpad, but my thinkpad from 7 years ago is still going strong. Recently I decided to do a service on it for the first time, and I was absolutely stunned by how little dust had built up in the CPU fan and the interior in general, after 7 years of usage, often sitting on top of a couch or bed, near my long-haired Norwegian forest cat Rufus. All it needed was a litle puff of computer duster and it was good as new. That's very good design of the air intakes and is a huge factor in the machine's longevity. I did computer repair professionally for a while, and one of the most common causes of irreparable death I saw in laptops was massive dust buildup in cpu fans and consequent heat damage to surrounding components. I'd sometimes see this in 2-3 year old laptops even. Funny to think that something as simple as the shape of an air intake opening can have such a profound impact on the lifetime of a device. The other thing that Thinkpads are unrivaled at is protection for the display. People like to say macbooks are sturdy, but they are quite prone to cracked displays because of Apple's obsession with smaller bezels. The thinkpad ofc has t34 style angled armor for its display. Can't remember ever seeing a Thinkpad with a cracked display. And I carry my Thinkpad around in just a backpack with no sleeve, often the Thinkpad is the only thing in there, and it regularly impacts the floor when the(thin-bottomed) backpack is put down while sitting down on the bus or getting home.
• Narann 1y ago
  I’ve never been a fan on ThinkPad looks, until I get a second hand one, in 2014. It had 4GB or RAM and starts to have hard time with browsing, so few month ago, I bought 16GB for 20€. I’m almost sure It could live for 5 or 10 years. My only complain is Ctrl cap sensor having some inconsistencies, I have to push strong on it. For the rest I consider ThinkPad as the way to go for second hand.
• noufalibrahim 1y ago
  I've been on a non stop thinkpad streak since 2005 or so. T42 (IBM), X200, X230 and now X1 carbon. I used a thinkpad X200 back in 2014 or so and it got completely destroyed due to a spill. I replaced the memory, keyboard etc. but was unable to get it to work again. Also, the monitor had developed a few dead scanlines so I decided to buy another one. This was my primary work machine so I needed something quickly. I got another x230 off ebay. It was a piece used for demos at shows so it was refurbished. Threw Debian onto it and started work 2014. I used it straight till 2022 or so. It was my primary machine. I replaced the battery, added RAM. Then the fan got damaged and the front plastic plating got cracked so it was no longer presentable. I bought an X1 carbon but gave the laptop to my son. We bought a fan, thermal paste and some plastic parts for the casing, a new battery etc., watched a few youtube videos and fixed it up. It's still running and they play casual games on it. It's now atleast 10 years old and still going strong. It's a very strong machine with great longevity. Though I feel that the newer ones are not as good as the old and the X1 is definitely less repairable than its older cousins.
  • roflmaostc 1y ago
    I changed recently from X1 Yoga Gen 2 to X1 Yoga (2-in-1) Gen 9. The decline in quality is so clearly visible, the external pen is poorly designed and died after 6 months. The hinges are as loose as in a 600$ laptop. The whole thing makes cracking noises under slight stress. Also, Linux compatibility is poor, my Webcam still does not work. Battery lifetime is a joke too. Lenovo made this Laptop worse than 7 years ago, and it's their top line model for > 2000$. It's such a shame and sad to see. There's no very good alternative with integrated touchscreen and stylus.
    • herbst 1y ago
      To be fair yoga models always had issues, never fully Linux compatible and never had a long lifetime. Not sure what this series is supposed to be, but I wouldn't recommend it.
      • noufalibrahim 1y ago
• cbeach 1y ago
  This article compares two deliberately-different platforms. One is vertically integrated and designed for thermal performance, lightness, thinness and attractiveness. One is modular, and sacrifices thermal performance, lightness, thinness and attractiveness in order that the user can replace their own battery / RAM / etc IMO the latter is a false economy. Yes, you can upgrade your RAM, but what about the bus speed, and limitations of the motherboard and CPU? You end up with a Frankenstein's monster of new and old parts, which are constrained by the lowest common denominator, and only useful for basic tasks. Apple devices have high resale value. Far better, IMO, to sell your laptop after a few years, as a cohesive, intact package that retains some residual value, and then buy a new one with wholly modern parts that make sense together.
• dmwilcox 1y ago
  Have a near 10 year old Librem (original 13"), works fine. But if it breaks I'm getting an old Thinkpad and putting coreboot on it. Perhaps my usage is too light, no IDEs, no electron anything, no streaming, and few tabs because I shutdown the laptop instead of suspend it -- but I don't see what all the fuss is about needing to upgrade anything. 16gb of ram and an i5 is fine, even for the modern web, disable JavaScript and/or run ublock origin. The new fangled ARM stuff ;) strikes me as essentially similar in character to smartphones: future e-waste with no possibility of repair. Choose wisely, choose x86 and modularity
• bambax 1y ago
  > One of the main reasons that old Thinkpads stand out is their design philosophy. They are made with swappable components with the intention of user upgradeability. On a fixed PC everything is swappable by definition. I don't quite understand why people love laptops so much. If you're using your PC in only one place a tower PC is cheaper and can be upgraded indefinitely with only a screwdriver (if that).
  • burkaman 1y ago
    People love them because they want to use their PC in more than one place.
    • Cthulhu_ 1y ago
      And employers love them because if people take them home overnight they only need security / insurance for peripherals. The only fixed PCs I still see in offices are low cost / bulk Dell machines only good for office work or thin clients, and even those go back ~15 years now, at a bank that already had relatively tight security. I wish I could have a job where I work on a desktop machine and could just leave things at the office when I leave for the day. Alas.
    • bambax 1y ago
      What are those places? Do most people have multiple residences? Or do they think they might need it, and in practice never do?
      • burkaman 1y ago
        Even multiple rooms in your home is compelling enough for many people, but for me it's about taking it on trips. Obviously you don't always want to take your computer on vacation, but sometimes I want to visit a friend and work from there, or go visit my family and work on a project while I'm there, that kind of thing. On a smaller scale, I often bring my computer to the roof of my building or to a library or cafe. I can understand preferring the constraint of "when I leave my desk I don't have to think about the computer anymore", but for me all the additional flexibility is a good tradeoff.
• animal531 1y ago
  I have a 2nd generation iPad and its amazing how well it still runs. Of course I can't do anything with it because you can't update the OS and without having a new OS you can't actually download or run anything from the shop.
  • apples_oranges 1y ago
    Same for my third gen. Well, at least I updated the root certificate on it and it's good as a PDF reader, book reader and music player still.
    • animal531 1y ago
      I should probably do the same since my Kindle has packed up and will no longer start, so I could at least use the pad for that.
• gsky 1y ago
  My last laptop, dell 14r i3 2nd gen, retired after 12 years. It still works fine but the processor was slowing me down. New one's i3 12gen cost me $300
• dash2 1y ago
  I can still run my X60 from 2006. Still, I am not sure about the premise here. My Macbook Air from 2013 also runs very solidly.
• bjpirt 1y ago
  I've been pondering the same thought recently but applied to analog cameras. Analog cameras have evolved over time, approximately according to the following: - fully mechanical - mechanical shutter with light meter - electronic control of shutter, mechanical advance - fully electronic shutter and advance Broadly, what I'm finding after digging in to restoring some cameras is that most of the cameras from the first stage can still be fixed and made to perform close to when they were new. The second still work, but the light meter can die (simpler light meters may be repairable, later ones not so much). The third and fourth stages - once they die, there's no repairing them. And when you look at digital cameras, there'll be very, very few of these that last long into the future. This bears out the 'Lindy Effect' mentioned in the article.
  • Melatonic 1y ago
    The second category is my personal favorite - bought a used and slightly beat up Nikon FM2n when I was in college for cheap and the thing is still trucking with no maintenance done 15 years later. Shutter speeds seem at least reasonably accurate and it only requires a battery for the light meter. All mechanical otherwise. Or if you want to get fancy the Nikon FM3a gives you sort of the best of all worlds (all mechanical internals or battery powered auto exposure with the flip of a dial)
    • bjpirt 1y ago
      Yeah - big fan of the FM / FM2n (I've also got the latter) The FM3a always really appealed, but the more I think about it the less it appeals. Although it's a mechanical shutter, the electronics are still pretty complex and if they die, there's so few of them that there's very little way of repairing it with salvaged parts. I've also heard that because they are not as reliable as the previous FM / FM2 iterations
• tiberius_p 1y ago
  Mine is 12 years old, battery is dead but I use it as a server.
• jamesdhutton 1y ago
  I’m currently coding a Flutter app on a 15-year-old Dell desktop, running Linux. The experience is great. I’m running latest versions of VS Code, Flutter, you name it. It’s nice and snappy and a joy to use. I’ve upgraded RAM, SSDs, GPU over the years to keep it somewhat up to date. Eventually I’m going to have to cave in and buy a Mac so that I can publish my app for iOS. I’ve been loathe to do it though and I’ve been putting it off. This article is a great explanation of why I’ve been so loathe. It articulates reasons that were semi-subconscious for me.
  • moffkalast 1y ago
    > The experience is great. Aside from it being a principled thing, Linux does work a lot better on older machines. Newer hardware tends to have shit driver support for a few years. Like my 10 year old Asus laptop which is supposed to have horrid Linux compatibility runs multiple versions of Ubuntu with KDE perfectly, with only bluetooth crapping out occasionally. A new Lenovo laptop that we just got at work that's supposed to be tested with linux? Completely broken, can't adjust the display brightness, can't read the battery level, touchpad doesn't work, and more. I'm sure it'll be sorted out by Ubuntu 26 or whatever, but damn is it a crap experience. Using linux on a machine that's less than 5 years old is already too bleeding edge for productivity.
    • fadedsignal 1y ago
      That sucks. I remember buying my XPS when the new version released and tried to install Linux (Fedora). Nvidia driver issues, CPU E/P core issues, and many more. It literally took 2 years to get stable. Recently, Nvidia released a new version of the driver. Guess what happened? PC doesn't wake up from sleep anymore. I'm not even mentioning the so-called 8-hour battery life.
      • jamesdhutton 1y ago
        Yeah Nvidia and Linux don’t play together nicely. I discovered that the hard way too. I switched to AMD and it’s been smooth sailing ever since.
• amunozo 1y ago
  Lindy effect, as the author said, is for non-perishable items. ThinkPad as a brand could be included in this categoty, but an individual ThinkPad is not. Good article, though.
• RecycledEle 1y ago
  My coworkers understand and envy my Lenovo e570, they just wish Apple or Dell sold one like I have new at a reasonable price. I can not fault them. I wish GM still sold the S10 pickup.
• barkut 1y ago
  X220 owner here. You will have to pry it from my dead cold hands. I don't use anything that can't run on it well, my workflow is mostly shell based. Even Firefox don't do that bad when JS is disabled.
• neonnoodle 1y ago
  hell same
• svilen_dobrev 1y ago
  Well, next to a x220 from 2012, sits my eee-pc 701, from 2008. With no-moving-parts-inside, and "huge" soldered 4Gb ssdisk with arch-32bit. Been around the world (literally), a few times. The touchpad buttons started falling few years ago. i keep putting them back. Rarely used nowadays - but battery still holds about hour+ .. Well made tiny machine. i guess i am a hoarder? Hate to throw away useful working things..
  • thenthenthen 1y ago
    Similar setup here + 12 year old MacbookPro + 10 year old tower case pc. I recently got a M1 to test out some of the apple ai stuff (translation, it is broken on my intel mbp some how) but I doubt this m1 will outlive my eeepc/x220/mbp.
• anymouse123456 1y ago
  I'm running a Lenovo Thinkpad, X1 Carbon from a year or so ago and it is, by far, the best Linux Laptop I've ever owned. Unlike the 4 or so Dell (and Asus) laptops (that came with Linux preinstalled) that preceded this one, it can simultaneously support: * Bluetooth. Yay! * Wifi. Yay! * Sleeps when the lid closes. Yay! * Stays asleep when in my bag. Yay! It's also reasonably fast and decently capable, but the not-trying-to-commit-heat-death-suicide-in-my-bag and supporting BOTH Wifi AND Bluetooth at the same time are really the biggest features.
  • devnullbrain 1y ago
    The last point is really a special feature in today's laptop market, Linux or not.
• h1696UOuk 1y ago
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• h1696UOuk 1y ago
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• ChrisMarshallNY 1y ago
  I can't match that, but I regularly use a 2012 11" MacBook Air, as a Zoom terminal. Works great. Stuck on Catalina, but can handle the software I need.
• DarkIye 1y ago
  Another x220 club member reporting in. My employer was getting rid of old machines a few years back, I got it for £20. The only work it needed was to resolder the left speaker, I think it already had an SSD in it. It weighs less than 2kg and is perfect for light duties.
• limpbizkitfan 1y ago
  Sorry but rifling through your weblog there is a ton of freak shit posted dog
• pabs3 1y ago
  My X201t still works fine, only replaced it because I found newer desktops in a dumpster. Still no laptops in dumpsters though.
• sevensor 1y ago
  I love old Thinkpads for single purpose computers. Install Debian, boot it once a day, or once a week, or once a month. One for all the flacs I had the energy to rip in my 20s, one for wine and dosbox, one for messing around with programming languages, one for household stuff. It prevents distractions.
• JansjoFromIkea 1y ago
  Bought an X220 years back and it unintentionally became my main laptop for a few years. Sold it on in much worse condition (I kept the keyboard) at a profit and got an i7 X230T instead, which has also somehow gone up in price since. the X230 didn't last as long, the efficiencies of the M1 macbooks were too good to ignore. Gave it to my mother since because she wanted "an old laptop that just works"
  • reaperducer 1y ago
    I kept the keyboard This I understand. My company's IT department is using the Windows 11 migration to move everyone to new laptops, and I am going to miss that amazingly firm-but-sqiushy keyboard so hard. I can't stand Windows, but writing long-form reports on that machine is a joy.
• maurimtl 1y ago
  If everything is modelar and can be replaced is the think pad just a box?
• nticompass 1y ago
  In September of 2012, I bought a T430 from Lenovo. I loved that thing! Covered it with stickers, even upgraded it as the years went on. Eventually, it had a Core i7-3820QM with 16GB RAM, 1080p screen (with an adapter), SSDs (plural, I put one in the UltraBay)... I installed Coreboot with Tianocore, upgraded the WiFi card... I even modded in the keyboard from a T420. In June of 2022, 10 years later, I bought an X270 off eBay. I could still use the T430, it was just starting to feel sluggish... I just felt like I needed a new laptop. I'm very happy with the X270 and I hope to use it as long as possible. It was also fun to start covering it with stickers all over again! I still have the T430, it's just not being used and it's sitting in a storage locker (with my vintage computer collection).
  • jmclnx 1y ago
    >I could still use the T430, it was just starting to feel sluggish A cleaning and re-paste will bring it back. If on windows maybe time for a windows re-install. Typed on a T430 via BSD that was just re-pasted and cleaned, not sluggish anymore :) If you are interested *BSD, I can confirm both NetBSD and OpenBSD works great on the T430 I have.
    • nticompass 1y ago
      I think it's currently running either Arch or Manjaro (I forget which) and maybe a quick re-install and cleaning of the fans/thermal paste could help. I dunno, I just got the feeling that I wanted (needed?) a new laptop...
• acquacow 1y ago
  I just finished completely rebuilding a 2008 and 2010 macbook pro. The older ones are quite serviceable. This round, the speaker surrounds had cracked causing buzzing audio or no audio. I managed to ebay brand new speaker replacements and got them installed. I cleaned everything and re-pasted the CPU/GPU while I was in there as well. They are on El Capitan and High Sierra, but can be patched to be upgraded to Mojave if I wish. Currently running a LTS version of Firefox as my browser.
  • inversetelecine 1y ago
    Did similar. A 2008 white macbook and a late 2008 unibody macbook (non-pro). It was a fun project. The white plastic macbook is in decent shape too with just standard light scratching on the body. It was sold for parts only but worked just fine. Needed a battery replacement, and I found some old magsafe "L" chargers for cheap. Maxed out the RAM at 4GB (Supports 6GB (4G+2G) but 1pc of 4GB DDR2 are expensive). The 2008 unibody macbook needed the lower body replaced (bad keyboard main issue) but the rest of it works fine. The original battery still worked and held some charge, but I got a 3rd party one anyway along with the magsafe "L" charger. Maxed out RAM at a usable 8GB DDR3. This was also sold dirt cheap "for parts". Both ran MX Linux for awhile until I needed the SATA SSDs. They now sit with their old mechanical hdds and the last supported OSX versions on them. Maybe one day I'll get around to selling them.
  • asilis 1y ago
    Not sure why article compares modern Apple laptops with 17 years old ThinkPad. Macbook Pros were quite serviceable until 2012. They also are dual-bootable and run Linux quite fine. I have one from 2009 with 2 SSDs serving as a NAS.
• sneak 1y ago
  It’s just a different layer of abstraction. The chips on your SSD in your thinkpad are also soldered without any easy way to replace them save for replacing the whole SSD. Same for your RAM. Now in a modern laptop it’s the top case or bottom case or board; the robot-made factory parts are bigger integrated components of the system. All you care about is your data anyway, the repairability of the system as a whole by swapping out components at home (admittedly a large culture in the PC world, as silly as it is these days when all you’re doing is connecting a robot factory gpu to a robot factory cpu and choosing a PSU and RAM (also made in robot factories)) isn’t that important. I hope one day that computing gets so small and light and dense and integrated that I can’t replace any single components without a robot factory and/or microscope. I want a solid microscopically integrated slab (which is what my iPad Pro is basically approaching).
  • Melatonic 1y ago
    I see what you are saying at some level - but for a laptop form factor (which is already inherently larger since it has keyboard and larger screen) wouldn't it make more sense to at minimum have a few super dense robot made boards all integrated ? Maybe you have the main motherboard with CPU, RAM, and possibly GPU all together. Save space - integrate bigger and better batteries. Swappable storage though seems like a no brainer (especially because even the fastest SSDs don't require the kind of latency and link speed soldered RAM might). A modern card type slot for peripherals seems like a damn nice addition too along with the ability to swap the WiFi chip. Hell I would even settle for an easily swapped mobo with soldered parts if I wanted to upgrade down the line - a good screen and keyboard and chassis can last a long time !
    • sneak 1y ago
      Try using a Macbook8,1 sometime (or iPad Pro for that matter). There isn’t size or weight budget for swappable anything. Connectors take space, mechanical retaining pads and clips do too. This is like wanting a headphone jack or usb-A or SD card slot on an iPhone SE. It’s a step backwards, given the size and weight. We’re actually at the point where the thickness of a micro-sd card slot cage matters. Any weight budget that could be used for such things almost nobody ever uses is rightfully used instead for battery.
• randerson 1y ago
  My old ThinkPad X220 is the laptop I miss the most. My employer at the time replaced laptops after 4 years and sent the old ones to be destroyed for compliance reasons. I begged them to just destroy the SSD and let me keep the laptop, but "company policy..." In a sensible world I would still have that machine.
  • DeathArrow 1y ago
    You can buy one for a song.
    • asdffdasy 1y ago
      and you will probably get that very same one. IT data destruction companies all remove the storage, and put the device back on ebay the same day.
• deleted 1y ago
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• ErrorNoBrain 1y ago
  I mean sure, being able to keep a 17 year old laptop is alive, is awesome... but why? I get special hardware needs to live for a long time, like, an arcade machine, specialized equipment or something. but some random laptop? what can it do, that a modern computer cant, apart from being repaired easily (lets ignore framework laptops for the sake of argument) if his point is he just wants a framework laptop, it already exists.
  • dweinus 1y ago
    It also avoids a lot of waste/pollution/cost. That might sound trivial, but over the course of 17 years an average person might own 5 laptops.
• ubermonkey 1y ago
  One of the finest laptops I ever had -- in my 30 year history with the form factor -- was an IBM Thinkpad 560Z. It was insanely compact, but powerful enough for my purposes at the time. It had a radical design for the time b/c it had NO removable media on board at all. It shipped with an outboard CD-ROM that I used often enough that it lived on my desk, and an outboard floppy drive that I don't think I used at all. The shame of it was that a PC of that era had a super short useful life. Now we think nothing of keeping computers for 5 years or more; they're just so powerful that for most regular human tasks, there's no need for the kind of upgrade treadmill that dominated computing 25 years ago. After 3 years, though, the 560Z was almost unusable -- it had a TINY hard drive, and limited RAM. Windows was getting fatter and slower. But the physical computer itself was in GREAT shape -- even after years of heavy travel, it bore none of the crappy wear and tear I'd associate with colleagues' Dells (e.g.) later. I kept it on a shelf for a long time because it was so solid and pleasing that I couldn't bear to part with it despite its basic uselessness. I didn't realize it at the time, but the 560Z was also my last Windows laptop. Because my job back then was mostly Office docs, and because Win98 was so awful, I shifted to a Mac when the 560 was done, and I've been there ever since.
• deleted 1y ago
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• bobjordan 1y ago
  I’ve been using my 10-year-old ThinkPad X250 and a decade-old workstation without feeling any need to upgrade. However, the possibility of running powerful local LLMs that require a lot of GPU or unified memory has finally increased my interest. It's my impression that laptops likely won’t see the major leap required in that area to run truely large LLMs for another 5–10 years, but I expect workstation capabilities to advance more rapidly, meaning I may upgrade in the next 1–3 years. My current workstation setup includes 22cores/44threads decade old xeon plus four decade old Titan X GPUs with a total of 48GB VRAM, which is enough to run a decent local AI model, but I’m finally wanting more capacity. I haven’t been this interested to upgrade in a decade. NVIDIA’s new DGX-class offerings might convince me, depending on pricing and supply, although waiting a few more years to let things stabilize could be what I do. Still, it’s an exciting time for hardware, especially now that there’s a tangible reason to invest in more power for local AI.
  • Melatonic 1y ago
    The new Nvidia developer workstations (believe they are much cheaper than full DGX systems) are definitely interesting. I have a desktop with a Titan XP (somewhat similar to your Titan X). If you look up LLM performance however these older GPUs (even with enough VRAM) do quite poorly. They still hold up great for gaming and many other GPU hungry tasks though. Personally I think a really cool setup would be something like a modern MacBook Pro with a ton of RAM and high core CPU that could be plugged into an external GPU enclosure when needed. Depending on LLM needs you could be upgrading the external GPU and still use the power efficient laptop on the go.
• kodt 1y ago
  I have a 14 year old T420, I upgraded the processor, ram, hard drive, battery, and wifi chip several years ago which really sped it up and gave it more usable life. Still runs great for most things.
  • ukd1 1y ago
    I have few old thinkpads X220, X230, etc - outside of raw power, the two things that really suck are the speakers (they're truly trash), and the standard screen's performance with anything but trivial light around it. Still, it's fast enough to use with linux, and the keyboard is a joy to use. Swappable batteries are fun, and useful. However, I can't really use one outside of just nostalgia, or for tuning cars.
    • kodt 1y ago
      Yeah, they aren't really suitable for heavy workloads.
  • Melatonic 1y ago
    If you're using Windows on it I highly recommend looking into the last version of Windows 10 LTSC - it's basically a completely stripped down version without all the crap (no spyware, windows store, candy crush, etc). Anything you really need to add back is easy (like if you do need a windows store app for example) With an SSD it boots insanely fast and consumes very little resources at idle. And will get security updates for many years to come. It's really the perfect OS for the T420 (or Linux of course - although I'd actually prefer Windows for a classic Thinkpad). Bit hard to buy legally (you need to go through a VAR - there are some who will definitely sell you single copies). Core Windows 10 without all the bloat is actually a really impressive and lightweight OS considering the massive backwards compatibility and huge backlog of free software. Not to mention the insane breadth of hardware it will run on.
• 0xbadcafebee 1y ago
  There's a fallacy often repeated for computers: "It's lasted a long time so it's going to keep lasting a long time." The thing is, failure of computer hardware is often due to manufacturing flaws. There's many that could have flaws, and they're subject to (varying) environmental stresses (both at build time at run time), so there's many failure modes. It's difficult to know exactly when a server might fail. It might be within 1 month of its build, it might be 50 years. But what's clear is that failure isn't less likely as the machine gets older, it's more likely. There are outliers, but they;re rare. The failure modes for these things are well recorded, and the whole thing is designed to fail within a certain number of hours (if it's not the hard drive, it's the fan, the cpu, the memory, the capacitors, the solder joints, etc). It doesn't get better as it ages. But environmental stress is often a predictor of how long it lives. If the machine is cooled properly, in a low-humidity environment, is jostled less, run at low-capacity (fans not running as hard, temperature not as high, disks not written to as much, etc), then it lives longer. So you can decrease the probability of failure, and it may live longer. But it also might drop dead tomorrow, because again there may be manufacturing flaws. If given the choice, I wouldn't buy an old machine, because I don't know what kind of stress it's had, and the math is stacked against it.
  • normie3000 1y ago
    > But what's clear is that failure isn't less likely as the machine gets older, it's more likely. Is this true? Doesn't most hardware have a dip in failure rate in the middle of its average lifespan?
    • 0xbadcafebee 1y ago
      It depends on the components. The bathtub curve applies the most manufactured equipment in some way. But specific kinds of hardware are more prone to it than others. Hard drives, fans, power supplies, dedicated controllers, RAM and CPU modules, etc all fail at different rates. Combine that with the varying failure rates of different grades of components, with manufacturer/model differences, environmental differences, and load differences, and it's all over the map. But in general, any one of these components is effectively a system failure, so there is always this varying degree of failure over time due to the fluctuation of all these variables. I also believe there's a psychic component to failures. The machines know when you're close to product launch, or when someone has just discovered the servers haven't been maintained in a while and are at risk of failing. Then they'll fail for sure. Especially if there are hot-spare or backup servers, which will conveniently fail as well.
• ge96 1y ago
  I always have a Carbon x1 lying around (old one) just because it's a great design to me being slim and nice keyboard
• agentultra 1y ago
  I still primarily use Thinkpads for all these reasons. One incident with fluids and a $3k Apple machine is e-waste. I had young kids, it was inevitable. Instead, refurbished Thinkpads are still coming off leases. Available for a 250-700 refurbished. Bench repairable. I keep good backups. If something incredible happens and I can’t fix it I can get a new one same day and be back on my feet. And I like the aesthetic. They’re built to be durable. The chassis has fluid channels. The parts are replaceable. They’re black, unassuming, and utilitarian. It is getting harder to keep the latest versions of some distros running on them. Software continues to expand like a gas and developers don’t seem to run their stuff on anything but the latest spec hardware. But there are distros out there where folks take care to keep things minimal and fast. These are still powerful machines. Not editing 4K video on them. But they’re dang useful for coding, writing, and day to day things I do.
  • _fat_santa 1y ago
    I would say even newer Thinkpads are a great deal. I recently bought a P15 Gen 1 from 2020 for ~$700 and it's been an absolute monster. Core i9, RTX 5000, and 128GB or ram. Through research I learned that brand new this machine would have cost around ~$5,800 but even five years later it's better than most new laptops around the ~$700 price point. The "hard" thing about thinkpads is you have to find them. I must have searched eBay listing for close to a month before the right thinkpad popped up. Especially with the workstation grade laptops, they were so configurable brand new that there are something like 48 possible variants you can find, and finding one with the exact specs you want can be incredibly difficult.
• DrNosferatu 1y ago
  Want a real solution to electronic waste? The EU should mandate 10-year warranties for higher-end consumer electronics and durable goods. This could work on a sliding scale: less expensive items get shorter warranties (but never below the current 2-year minimum), while pricier products require longer coverage periods. Such legislation would: 1. End the exploitation of workers in sweatshops producing deliberately short-lived products 2. Discourage planned obsolescence and reduce manufacturing waste 3. Significantly decrease the climate impact of consumer electronics 4. Create genuine incentives for a Circular Economy where durable products like quality ThinkPads become standard rather than exceptions By requiring products to last, we'd not only protect consumers and the Environment, but also the vulnerable workers currently trapped and exploited in sweatshops designed to produce disposable goods.
  • stronglikedan 1y ago
    The reality is that no one wants to carry around a five pound laptop just for the sake of sturdiness or repairability.
    • DrNosferatu 1y ago
      One thing does not prevent the other: that's what standards are for.
      • acrooks 1y ago
        You will need to sacrifice something. If the regulations become more restrictive, one of the following needs to change: - cost (laptops getting more expensive) - quality (laptops getting less powerful / smaller) - time (manufacturers have a long grace period before they need to implement the regulations, to allow technology to catch up)
        • DrNosferatu 1y ago
          The EU always implements this kind of legislation with grace periods - obviously, no step functions.
• b8 1y ago
  I have a x220 with an adjustable screen. I broke the screen and the battery can't hold a charge. The power button cover is messed up. No hard drive cover. Last I looked up the screen install was complicated and expensive. Probably take over $200 I paid on eBay for it. It has an unlocked bios though which I've read is rare.
• dionidium 1y ago
  My primary computer, the one I'm typing on right now, is a 13-year old 2012 Mac Mini. It couldn't be more fine. It does everything I need it to do.
  • nickpeterson 1y ago
    Now you’ve jinxed it. I’d imagine you’ll never see this response because your laptop exploded shortly after typing that comment.
  • userabchn 1y ago
    I use a 20 year old Dell laptop. The only problem for me is that 32bit is starting to become limiting.
  • shanecleveland 1y ago
    Running a 2009 Mac Mini in a business setting. Connected to a barcode scanner within a local python development environment and communicates over a wired network. Runs 24/7 with barely an issue.
• firefax 1y ago
  So if I was looking for an older Thinkpad to throw something XFCE flavored onto, what are some model numbers to look for? I'm basically just looking to do word processing/browsing, but I assume I'll have to jack up the ram, maybe replace the main drive with an SSD...
  • 2b3a51 1y ago
    Depends on what screen size/resolution you favour, and the type of keyboard. I like the older keyboards and I'm ok with 1366x768 so I'm happy with an X220 with 8Gb RAM and a 256Gb ssd (sata). I know many people would find that unacceptable.
    • firefax 1y ago
      I can get a monitor if needed, it's more meant to be a luggable. I'm not a keyboard purist -- I hunt and peck :-)
• zokier 1y ago
  Personally I think beyond T450 generation, i.e. over 10 years old systems, you are starting to make pretty severe compromises. T440 generation had really bad Trackpoint setup, and older hardware starts to lose features. Random stuff that T450 has that T400 doesn't * USB3 * Up to 32 GB of RAM (vs max 8 GB for T400) * M.2 slot (for SSD), 6 Gb/s SATA (vs 1.5 Gb/s on T400) * x86-64-v3 (AVX2 etc) and OpenGL 4.6 * Dual-band AC wifi and BT4.0 (optional 4G LTE WWAN) * DisplayPort with 4k@60Hz output * Slightly larger screen estate (1600x900 vs 1440x900), with FHD 1080p display option * Dramatically better battery life * Backlit keyboard Many of these are not merely nice to have but also ensure longevity by being compatible with lot of other modern stuff. On the other hand I do believe that T450 generation device might remain viable daily driver for a long while still. From the specs the biggest obvious shortcoming to me is the lack of USB-C, especially USB-C charging. But besides that, it seems pretty usable system. For reference, I have old X240 that I still occasionally use.
  • kwanbix 1y ago
    My two T460s work just fine. They are not as expandable as my T420 but I can change the M.2 SSD and the RAM. That is enough for me at this point. RAM and STORAGE has to be upgradeable.
  • flobosg 1y ago
    > especially USB-C charging I swapped the barrel connector in my x220 for a third party USB-C charging port: https://www.tindie.com/products/mikepdiy/lenovo-charging-port-type-c-pd-x220-x230/ https://www.tindie.com/products/mikepdiy/lenovo-charging-por...
  • kev009 1y ago
    The T480 is kind of the current modern classic, it even has recent coreboot support. I did a screen swap on mine to a modern low blue light panel, LiteOn keyboard swap, new batteries and there is really nothing else to complain about. T14 series are cheap enough used now to be considered cheap, but you lose some of the modding potential of the T480.
  • benou 1y ago
    I still use my Thinkpad x61 as my daily driver (typing on it right now) and I don't feel most of the "severe limitations" you are listing. I think some are wrong (eg. I use Dual-band AC wifi and BT4.0 wifi card in mine, and have a 2.5" SATA-II (3Gbps) SSD), and others are not limitation for my use. I won't recommend it to everyone, mind you, but for my use it is perfect.
• Saris 1y ago
  Having used old thinkpads I just don't really understand the appeal, especially with how poor old LCDs look. The trackpads are tiny, the battery life is abysmal, they're heavy and like an inch thick.
  • rc_mob 1y ago
    Macbook superior screen is the only reason i switched from thinkpad t-series. Everything you listed can be ignored or you get used to it. Not like macbook touchpad is without its own annoyances.
  • piuantiderp 1y ago
    One does not use the trackpad in a thinkpad. If anything they should be removed. The old keyboards are a dream to type on... Only computer that came close (that I had was HP DV1000)
    • Saris 1y ago
      Yeah I've tried the little track nub things but they don't work well for me, a good track pad is much quicker.
      • Melatonic 1y ago
        It takes a decent amount of practice and you need to adjust the sensitivity settings. Eventually though I would say they can be more accurate than most trackpads (excluding a good Apple trackpad - those are great) The real advantage though is your hands never need to leave the keyboard between mouse and typing (for speed)
• gsibble 1y ago
  I have both a brand new M4 Macbook and a ThinkPad P16s. I run Arch with Hyprland on my P16s. They are both fantastic laptops but have clearly different use cases. My Macook is my browsing/YouTube/music/research/photo editing machine. It's fantastic at those things. It also integrates into FaceTime and iMessage which means I don't have to pull out my phone all the time. My P16s is my work laptop. I can disappear into it for 5 hours straight writing code. I'm either in Cursor or the terminal most of that time with a little browser use. And hyprland is freaking gorgeous, fast, and incredibly stable. I don't get nearly as good a development experience on my Macbook, mostly because so much of its navigation is based upon the trackpad vs. the keyboard in Hyprland. So, I enjoy both and each has their place. I think my only complaint about the P16s is while it has an extremely high res OLED display, it's not as bright as I'd prefer.
  • csdvrx 1y ago
    > And hyprland is freaking gorgeous, fast, and incredibly stable. I don't get nearly as good a development experience on my Macbook, mostly because so much of its navigation is based upon the trackpad vs. the keyboard in Hyprland. hyprland is so much better than anything else I don't understand why it's not more popular on HN
• zakqwy 1y ago
  If you run an X220 or X230 and do embedded development, build in an ARM debugger (a thing I made some years ago)! [1] [1] https://hackaday.io/project/27272-tp-bmp https://hackaday.io/project/27272-tp-bmp
• mcbuilder 1y ago
  I have a stack of T40 and T60 series in my shed. All 32bit processors, but man what beautiful machines. I kinda feel like the guy with the classic Thunderbird in his garage.
  • Melatonic 1y ago
    Throw Windows 10 LTSC on those things if it can handle it ! Way lower RAM and idle consumption
• windex 1y ago
  On a T480 secondhand with a wonky keyboard. Where are you guys sourcing keyboards from?
  • gabegm 1y ago
    I got mine from a reputable German seller on Ebay. Avoided AliExpress due to the negative reviews on r/thinkpad.
• zer0zzz 1y ago
  What is the point of a reparable upgradable machine if the components are all ancient and a used m1 MacBook with just as much ram as the maximum on a x220 costs 500 dollars?
• bainganbharta 1y ago
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• gwbas1c 1y ago
  (Joke) What do you mean a Thinkpad is repairable? If a chip dies, you have to go out and buy a new chip! Whatever happened to the days where you could just wire in a new transistor yourself? (/Joke) Jokes aside, my point is that this article is splitting hairs about where repairability and integration lies. It's not worth opening up a failing RAM module to find the microscopic broken transistor. For many of us, it's not worth repairing an old laptop, but instead we'd rather have the advantages of everything soldered to the mainboard. (Although I will admit to repairing an old Mac laptop. The fans started to squeak, so I changed them.)
• geocrasher 1y ago
  My T420 has a couple of upgrades: Memory (16GB) and SSD (250GB). That's it. It's bone stock otherwise. When my buddy's laptop screen cracked, we had a hard time finding a new one. He took my T420 to work every day for a few months, and it came back to me more banged up than when it left. It's fine. And it did the job admirably. I need to do some automotive tuning/testing and guess what, the T420 is where its at for that, too. It's no longer good as a daily driver, but it'll do everything else just fine.
• padmabushan 1y ago
  Meanwhile an old pentium processor still operates nuclear plant in india ..
• jajuuka 1y ago
  I mean I know people who are still using 2010 MacBook Pro's with modern macOS versions. Just about any problem is fixable, it just depends on your skill level or how much money you wanna put into it. Another reminder to use whatever computer you want. All it has to be is the best for you.
• bentt 1y ago
  I just replaced the seat back on my 2005 Aeron chair as well. Feels good to take an old thing and make it feel new. These kinds of opportunities need to be designed into products, but maybe even more importantly, people need to value those design choices so much that they'll pay more for these types of things.
• anon6362 1y ago
  T480 (non-s) - Love the dual batteries (one swappable) unavailable on Apple-design infested T490 - Retrofitted with magnesium top case and bezel mod - 5 extended 72 Whr batteries with a third-party external charger from some dude in the UK - Upgraded to fastest processor and discrete GPU (slow on its own but I use a Razer Core X eGPU with an Nvidia RTX 3070 Ti, and can run basically any game on Steam.) - 32 GiB of RAM - WiFi 6e Intel AX210 (looking at WiFi 7 using the AMD-compatible Broadcom FastConnect 7800 / QCNCM865 that I run on my AMD 7900 Asrock DeskMini X600 electronic lab Windows-only things box that I'm typing on right now). - Bought OE replacement most likely to fail: keyboards, pointing stick (and tips), trackpad assembly, and fans (I think I bought 6). Any loose USB, etc. connectors I can resolder myself. - I might have a slight mainboard problem because I'm constantly running ThrottleStop to get higher, sustained Tdp with SpeedFan sending fans manually to full blast or otherwise the max freq randomly drops to painfully-slow 900 MHz max non-deterministically.
  • hxorr 1y ago
    Most likely need to repaste your CPU and replace any thermal pads for good measure (they tend to get damaged easily when removing heatsink, and do degrade over time too)
  • E39M5S62 1y ago
    What is the magnesium top case and bezel mod? Will any Intel AX210 card work, or do I have to somehow patch the T480's firmware to update the wifi whitelist?
    • gabegm 1y ago
      Intel AX210 card worked for me out of the box in Linux.
• atxtechbro 1y ago
  As an E15 Gen 2 owner, I'm in awe of you wizards keeping these ancient ThinkPads alive - my modern entry-level machine suddenly feels inadequate despite having 4x the processing power!
• p_greendale 1y ago
  Hm, I find that comparison a bit off. As a lover of both, Thinkpads (original IBM and Lenovo followups) AND macbooks, I would like to say that it IS possible to maintain macbooks, at least the older ones. My 2012'er MacBook Pro is holding up, parts like the sata-cable and worn out fan were replaced and the ram was upgraded. My Powerbook 530 hat replacable parts, even the G3 Pismo(?) one and an white ibook g3 is also serviceable if you're patient. Same happend for the thinkpads 360, 570, 600, X41t, X61s, T60, T61... hell. We even had chinese colleagues ordering for motherboards for us from china with changed firmware to run 201'er boards in X200 tablets. I became frustrated on thinkpads when Lenovo tried to mimick Apples lightweight AIO design and their first chicklet keyboard frustrated me. I changed all to apple then, because if both do weird things, why not using the more power efficent M1 (imho, maybe that has changed.) Do you remember the old thinkpad bios? Where the pointer was a flying duck? Do you remember opening a thinkpad and everything was labelled with colors and had small handles to change components quickly? Do remember changing ram on a powerbook? And do you remember how hard it was to find a new scsi disc drive for them? Recently, I got an nearly mint T420 at work as I needed something for a mobile job and I just felt my love for the black boxes again. Damn, I miss those days but I also would miss my retina (apple) or 4k screen (Lenovo) if I had to decide between either an old machine or a new one. Luckily, I can keep a few
  • Melatonic 1y ago
    T420 is an awesome machine but damn do modern laptops have better cooling and battery life. Maybe some day we will see more modern OS work well on power sipping ARM CPUs (like windows and Linux) and someone will offer a motherboard replacement for the T420 (like they do now) using one.
• hxorr 1y ago
  Here's what happened to the thinkpads I've owned... R51 - sold R50p - died (bad VRAM) X201 - Ethernet chip died, speakers died, bad keyboard - sold X230 - died X230 - sold in relatively good health X1 carbon gen 4 - best laptop I've owned out of all of the previous thinkpads by far People go on about thinkpad reliability, but I've had two straight up die on me... To be frank, I don't get the hype for the older models. They're slow and clunky. The newer chiclet keyboards are fine once you get used to them.
  • Melatonic 1y ago
    The X Series was always their cutting edge compact models - makes sense they would be as reliable. Personally I always like the T series as they were total tanks (considered mid range at the time).
• NoSalt 1y ago
  I have a Lenovo ThinkPad T61 that I absolutely LOVE! It is running the latest Xubuntu (24.04) with no problems. I have maxed out the RAM, installed an SSD, and even upgraded the CPU. I like it even more than my Dell E5440. No, I cannot play Minecraft on it that well, but it is a SOLID laptop and it feels good to hold and type on.
• methuselah_in 1y ago
  I have bought laptop in 2013 asus rog gaming one i suppose before it as well. Still rocking with i7. But it can still work with windows 11 but tpm makes it useless. So I have tried windows 11 but it hangs a bit linux runs smoothly.
• dopadelic 1y ago
  I used my T420 up till 2021. I upgraded the screen to a 1920x1080 IPS panel. SSD. I have a full-fledged workstation for anything that needs heavy lifting and I primarily used the laptop as a device to remote into my workstation. It was perfectly fine for standard web browsing and youtube.
  • Melatonic 1y ago
    How hard was it to upgrade the screen ?
• thecrumb 1y ago
  Still have a T420 I keep in my toolbox in the garage. Use it to watch videos when I'm working on my bike or car. It's covered in grease and oil. Sits out there through summer/winter, high humidity, etc yet always boots up when I plug it in.
• kidel001 1y ago
  I too maintain an older thinkpad! i want to say T430 so probably not as old, maybe got in 2012 or so? In any case, I have replaced: the screen, the battery, the power button (3D printed), the hard drive, the RAM, and the entire internal fan /cooling structure, and probably some more things I've forgotten. Why? Well it's all been over the years. But 1) because you can! like this post describes. Also: it's been nice to have a windows system around that I can remote into for certain tasks that are difficult or impossible on linux, like using the adobe suite. The last time something broke (the fan) I looked up how much a used T430 costs on ebay (~$40-$50) and buying a new fan was still cheaper. So I fixed it. It's been like that every time and it's still here.
• normie3000 1y ago
  > I continue to use my MacBook because I like using proprietary software like ... Alfred Is this like saying you still boot Windows occasionally to use the Start menu?
• tombhowl 1y ago
  [dead]
• qzx_pierri 1y ago
  I have a T450 with a issue that I haven’t been able to figure out for years: When I shut the lid, the screen will shut off, and when I open the lid again, I can hear the fans spinning and I know the laptop is on, but the screen WILL NOT TURN BACK ON. I have to hold the power button to force power off and then start it up again. Issue happens in Windows and Linux. I tried disabling the sleep enhancement feature in the BIOS (can’t remember what it’s called). So it’s just sitting on my bookshelf. Sad because it works great, but you just can’t close the lid.
  • Melatonic 1y ago
    Did you disable hibernation ? Is the screen just turning off or is it going to sleep? Always recommend fully disabling hibernation in windows as it's useless - if it's NOT going to sleep then might be worth messing with the BIOS power settings
• tristor 1y ago
  I used to do this, I have "retro modded" Thinkpads. I keep one still running (X61p) to use as a car computer. I've since switched everything I do that isn't on my Macbook to a Framework 13 AMD. The Framework 13, other than the case design being flimsier plastic vs magnesium alloy, is better at everything a new Thinkpad does than a new Thinkpad, and is roughly equivalent to an old with modern specs. As much as I wish that Lenovo would make a modern equivalent to the X60/X61, that's never happening, so Framework 13 is the best choice right now.
  • Melatonic 1y ago
    Retro modded like you replaced the mobo and whatnot ? How hard was it ?
• wiremine 1y ago
  > MacBooks are not modular, completely proprietary, and have a perishability built into them. I'm ok with this... maybe I'm odd? I view my laptops like I view my cars: I expect them to be replaced after a period of time. I'm NOT trying to maintain my old 2002 Honda Civic, and I'm NOT trying to maintain my older Macbooks. Once they leave Apple Care, I expect maybe another 12 to 18 months out of them, and then I move on.
  • mannykoum 1y ago
    But being able to maintain an old car IS the expectation. Not being able to repair and prolong the lifetime of a car, find parts, not allowing third party equipment and mechanics to repair them, not being able to resell it many times...these are all recent anti-consumerist behaviour by either car manufacturers or tech companies.
  • mattigames 1y ago
    You may be Ok with it and in your view is you a little quirky trait of your personality, but for humanity is a survivability matter, the subcontext of this issue is planned obsolesce, and all the resources we are continuously extracting and the damage is doing to the planet, in this context I mean specifically the trend of getting a new laptop or a new phone every two years or so.
  • wwweston 1y ago
    > I'm NOT trying to maintain my old 2002 Honda Civic My 2004 Pontiac Vibe is the newest car I've owned -- drove a few GM cars and one Nissan into 200-300kmi territory before that. Saved me tens of thousands of dollars and got me where I needed to go. Suppose that's consistent with me typing this on an old upgraded MBP.
• Melatonic 1y ago
  WALL OF TEXT WARNING - SORRY! :-D Recently pulled out a fairly modern Dell XPS that had a great OLED screen to read this thread and it was having some type of software or hardware issue. Booted up my old reliable Thinkpad T420 (bought it from a Russian kid in SF years ago who upgraded it with an SSD and 12gb of ram when it was close-ish to new - it even has Cyrillic on the keyboard since he bought it in Russia originally!!). Besides a few windows updates and requiring a new battery (25$ aftermarket) the thing works great. Forgot how damn nice those old Thinkpad scissor switch (I think that's the term) keyboards were - it truly feels almost mechanical keyboard like with a lot of travel. Did anyone ever sell a thin compact desktop keyboard with these style switches ? I could actually see it being very popular with people who like very low profile keyboards (like Apple desktops come with) but want something with more feedback. I considered briefly upgrading the mainboard and internals to something more modern (there's an aftermarket Chinese company that sells replacements) as I think the T420 is the last Thinkpad to have the nice keyboards and key layout. Then again it was handling everything I threw at it without issues (even plays 4K YouTube fine!) probably because it has a decent i5 CPU from when they still had hyper threading and dedicated Nvidia graphics (the old semi "Quadro" NVS line 4200m). So many little features on these that are unique - instead of a complicated backlit keyboard for example it has a little downward facing LED light on the screen that can be activated by a hot key and illuminates the keyboard nicely at night. It's not as pretty or fancy but I love the simplicity and the fact you can also use it to illuminate a paper notebook or anything else. One thing that does worry me is that Nvidia hasn't released updated drivers for this ancient chip since 2021 and I suspect eventually compatability will be an issue. I did have to disable hardware acceleration in the latest version of Libre Office (on Windows 10) to get it to work at all. I noticed in the BIOS it has options for Nvidia Optimus (meaning it also technically has an integrated intel GPU - currently disabled) so maybe worst case I will have to one day rely on that. Thing is a real brick and battery life sucks but I also forgot how nice it is to have so many ports - it has dedicated eSATA (still super useful with an external SNES cartridge like enclosure to quickly read internal 2.5" and 3.5" drives) and a slim card slot where I had added two USB 3 ports. CD player wont see much use these days but a dedicated full size Ethernet port is great and an empty (I think they called it Ultrabay?) slot means I could theoretically throw in another battery or some random accessory. Also has full size display port for modern TVs and displays and oldschool VGA for legacy stuff. There's a fingerprint read I've never used (wonder if this even works with modern Windows?). Forgot I had even upgraded the WiFi chip in this thing (no soldering!) so it was getting great internet speeds as well. I will say the cooling and fan situation though really suck - I forgot how damn loud the thing is with the fan even at 2/3 speed. I remember re-pasting the heat sink years ago thinking it might improve the situation and it didn't do much. Laptop was hitting 95C under load at first but after a little tweaking in the BIOS and the 99% trick to disable Turbo Boost it idles around 45-50C and hits about 85C briefly for high loads. Would love a modern version of the T420 with a nice 16:10 OLED, the exceptional keyboard, tons of ports and expansion and repair-ability, a modern cooling solution, and less power hungry CPU. I really don't care if my laptop is thicker or a little heavier - the screen size is what restricts what bags I can put it in and the 14" diagonal format is pretty ideal. 13" I find too small and 16"-17" is getting way too big. I kind of even have grown to like the thicker bezels in a world that seems obsessed with minimising them - they really don't add too much overall size and I suspect it must contribute to the durability of the laptop and screen in general. And of course gotta love a good track point mouse! With the mousepad disabled and my thumbs on the track point buttons you can transition from typing to moving the cursor around without ever needing to remove your hands from then keyboard - always loved the efficiency. I've had Dell and HP business class laptops with track points that also worked well but Thinkpad always had the best feeling thumb buttons. Seriously though - why are there no slim scissor switch external keyboards out there ?! A compact 87 key format one would be the perfect travel keyboard (bonus if it had a track point and thumb buttons)!
• vermaden 1y ago
  I daily use FreeBSD on 2011 (14 years old now) legendary ThinkPad W520. Details here: - https://vermaden.wordpress.com/2022/04/14/freebsd-13-1-on-thinkpad-w520/ https://vermaden.wordpress.com/2022/04/14/freebsd-13-1-on-th... Article is about FreeBSD 13.1 - but as time passed I followed all new versions and its at 14.2 now. Config did not changed - still running strong.
• nipperkinfeet 1y ago
  Same but with my desktop computer. Its going on 16 years and still runs like new.
• dzamo_norton 1y ago
  My cupboard server at home is 2007 vintage ThinkPad I inherited from my father's discarded machines. The battery is gone and the CPU fan is shot so the processor sits at about 80 degrees C and gets thermally throttled very aggressively indeed should any work come its way (little does, and Debian doesn't ask much of it either). I didn't hold out much hope for its longevity but the damn thing just keeps running. I wouldn't be surprised if its DVD drive is also okay and if you gave me a disc I could read the stuff off of it for you. Now there's something not everyone can do these days.
• kjkjadksj 1y ago
  My 2012 macbook pro would have still been working today had an unfortunate water damage incident not happen a couple years ago. It was theseuses macbook in a way. Trackpad had been replaced. Microphone replaced. Battery replace. RAM upgraded to 16gb. SSD upgrade. Disk drive swapped out and replaced with hard drive caddy making use of that extra SATAIII. It was no slouch. Sure it was only a dual core but 2.5ghz is plenty for a lot of things and most software doesn’t even make much use of multithreading anyhow. Not anything I’d try and run on that computer at least. It could handle creative suite and that was enough. Older games like TF2 worked great too like 80 or 100fps with a little config wonking. I can’t even get my replacement m3 pro running TF2 that well albeit over wine because valve doesn’t like arm.
• yummypaint 1y ago
  Once Apple ends official support for a machine the user has to buy a new MacBook or use an increasingly compromised system. Apple hardware uses an arm architecture that cannot ‘dual boot’ Windows or Linux easily. Once macOS support dies for a modern MacBook it becomes obsolete. This helped me realize why I don't like MacBooks. They aren't really computers. They are big folding smartphones with keyboards.
• Steve44 1y ago
  I don't have a lot to add other than I'm still using a T61p several times a week. It's got by far the best screen[1] I've ever had on a laptop and the keyboard is also lovely. It's running Win7 and I only use it for RDP onto work. The battery is screwed, perhaps lasts 10 seconds so just enough to cover quickly moving it. [1] 1920 x 1200 and very matt. It's just stunningly clear and easy on the eyes with great colour rendition.
• silexia 1y ago
  I don't understand why anyone still buys Apple products now? They are designed to fail at a certain age and cost a fortune and can't compete on tech specs.
• thi2 1y ago
  I want to line thinkpads, I really do. But trying a touchpad of a macbook and going back to a thinkpad is a truly horrible experience. I'm forever gratefull for the ancient 100€ T400 thinkpad that carried me through my CS degree when I had no money but spending 700+ on something that feels inprecise and jiggery when using is painfull.
• firemelt 1y ago
  damn that green indicator is really sexy
• imrehg 1y ago
  I still have my Thinkpad X201 from 2011 running, and I use it as my personal machine (have an M1 MacBook from/for work). Of course, had to replace the hard drive once or twice, replaced the whole motherboard once[0], and even though it's 64-bit, the CPU arch (Westmere) lacks some instructions that make some things non-functional (MongoDB, some Steam games don't start), and I had to limit the CPU frequency so it doesn't go into thermal shutdown. Nonetheless it's a joy to use still, and I boot it up with pleasure every time... Thinking when will I pull the trigger on a Framework, though at least I don't feel the pressure too much just yet. :) [0]: https://gergely.imreh.net/blog/2022/07/an-open-heart-motherboard-surgery/ https://gergely.imreh.net/blog/2022/07/an-open-heart-motherb...