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Why young parents should focus on building trust with their kids

• zeristor 2y ago
  This article mentions the marshmallow experiment. I am confused do people actually like eating marshmallows, if so why? It always seems to be taken as read that they’re irresistible. Why on Earth
  • dochne 2y ago
    I mean, it's asking kids if they want a ball of sugar - that does feel like a pretty sure thing.
    • weaksauce 2y ago
      i'm not particularly fond of sweets in my adult life but in my child years it was something i loved. i don't know why anyone would think a child wouldn't like a sweet ball of treat
    • watwut 2y ago
      Sure, but it is ball of sugar is worst possible form. You can make so many tasty things with sugar ... but someone somehow decided for this.
      • autoexec 2y ago
        That seems terribly unfair to marshmallows. Smores, lucky charms, rice krispies treat/bubble slice, and hot chocolate wouldn't be the same without them.
  • dyauspitr 2y ago
    Marshmallows, twizzlers, any of those corner store “cakes” like twinkies, the McRib, pop tarts etc. are absolutely disgusting hyped things I don’t understand. It’s like they manage to take sugar that most people like and make it inedible.
    • tayo42 2y ago
      Twizzlers are kind of ehh But hostess snacks you don't like? Didn't that was possible. Lol Or a poptart right out of the toaster?
      • dyauspitr 2y ago
        Very artificial tasting, I feel like I can taste the chemicals.
  • CTDOCodebases 2y ago
    Giving sugar to a kid is like giving meth to an adult.
    • oblio 2y ago
      > Giving sugar to a kid is like giving meth to an adult. Giving sugar to a kid is like giving sugar to an adult. Have you seen the meth usage rates? Awesome. Now compare them to obesity rates. I'm not saying sugar is the sole factor, but the fact that I've seen off the shelf sauerkraut (literally "sour cabbage") having sugar[1] as a listed ingredient in the US, tells you all you need to know about sugar's addictiveness. [1] Yeah, corn syrup or whatever the cheapest sugar substitute is.
  • lemper 2y ago
    yea mate, my kid and his friends love to eat marshmallow. i, on the other hand, quite dislike sweet things.
  • ozim 2y ago
    Normally I don't eat marshmallows and I don't crave for them. But once a pack is open and I get one, whole pack just goes. I find texture quite satisfying and since I eat them once in couple years it feels like something new and different from normal stuff I eat so it ends up "just one more" until there is no more.
    • imp0cat 2y ago
      Yeah, the texture is probably more interesting than the taste. But a small pack is enough.
  • oblio 2y ago
    Amusingly, in my experience, it should be the "pasta experiment". I'm not 100% sure why they're that way, but pasta is super appealing to kids. I guess it's because they're funny (especially spaghetti).
  • cheema33 2y ago
    > do people actually like eating marshmallows, if so why? Everybody around me likes them. I have no idea why. It could be cultural. I moved to the US when I was about 19. Tried my first marshmallow when I was maybe 25. Ick. Its mostly a ball of sugar. I don't like Vanilla ice cream either. For similar reasons.
  • krisoft 2y ago
    > It always seems to be taken as read that they’re irresistible. Nah. It wouldn't work if it was irresistible. You need a candy crapy enough to be resited by some people sometimes, but good enough to be desired by some people sometimes. Experimenters tried the same setup with a turkish delights once. Things went sideways so fast that they needed to get a talking lion to calm the situation down. Kids were betraying their own siblings even without further prompting or promises of more turkish delights.
    • pak9rabid 2y ago
      Reminds me of the the Simpsons scene with the pixie stick: "Don't hog it all!" "Go to hell zitface!"
  • pak9rabid 2y ago
    Only the crunchy ones in Lucky Charms
• strangehome 2y ago
  [flagged]
• RheingoldRiver 2y ago
  > Think about Japan, where kids are often taught to wait quietly for meals or gifts Author got the country and items correct but not associated correctly. In Japan, kids pass the marshmallow test with flying colors but fail the same test if it's a gift. In America kids generally pass the gift test (hypothesis is that they're used to waiting for presents on Christmas). source - https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/how-culture-affects-the-marshmallow-test/ https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/how-culture-affec... another source - https://www.colorado.edu/today/2022/07/21/new-take-marshmallow-test-when-it-comes-resisting-temptation-childs-cultural-upbringing https://www.colorado.edu/today/2022/07/21/new-take-marshmall...
  • forgotoldacc 2y ago
    Another thing is there's the difference between getting a guaranteed reward that you want (two marshmallows) vs waiting for the unknown. What good is waiting if a kid could potentially have 15 minutes of fun time with a toy, but they instead wait for two gifts and all they get is a pair of socks? But I was also a kid who'd beg nonstop to open my presents early. I knew if I opened something early, that was more time with a cool game or something. If I waited, well, that was less time with the cool game. Plus most of the presents weren't interesting. There was just one thing I wanted in particular and the other stuff could be forgotten.
  • watwut 2y ago
    Marshmallow test is one of those things real psychologists (whether practical or science) just do not care all that much about, but pop culture is sure obsessed with it.
    • rahimnathwani 2y ago
      The original paper has been cited 2000 times: https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C5&scioq=marshmallow+test&q=shoda+mischel+peake&oq=shoda+mischel https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C5&scioq=... That's a lot of citations for something they 'just do not care' about.
• strangehome 2y ago
  [flagged]
• jamesblonde 2y ago
  The point about trust/predictability is a nice new take on the delay gratification story. Good points from a motivated new! parent. When you get to your third kid, you tend to lose that burning ambition and think you know it all. We should always be learning.
• asukachikaru 2y ago
  Interesting read, thanks for sharing. I've had discipline problems for my whole life despite fighting it with different ways, to the point I'm kind of giving in and accepting that it is just who I am. I have trust in my parents. We have issues between us like all families, but I believe they did their best to raise me without a doubt. At least I didn't have concern about food on the table for a single second during my childhood, and I got most of the toys I wanted. Maybe it is something more minor or deeper.
  • kybernetikos 2y ago
    There are ways that people are set up psychologically that can lead to "discipline problems". A common companion of ADHD is oppositional defiant disorder (ODD) for example. I've seen people with an instinct to resist everything when under pressure or stressed. I also know people who don't seem to have the instinct for understanding authority and hierarchy that most people do ("if I have to listen to the teacher, why doesn't the teacher have to listen to me?"). I'm sure having people with these behaviours can be very adaptive and beneficial for the whole society in some situations (I bet they do better on the Milgram experiment for example), but in many cases in modern life it can make it feel like everything is an unnecessary fight. I think for people dealing with such individuals the key is to understand that it isn't directed at you personally. I'm not sure what the best advice is for those with those instincts, but I would imagine that it's a combination of learning to use those instincts appropriately and not being too hard on yourself when it goes wrong.
• gretch 2y ago
  People always use the marshmallow test as a sign that the participant can’t delay gratification. But what if they just understand time-value-of-marshmallow. Sometimes marshmallow now is better than marshmallow later.
  • tonyedgecombe 2y ago
    One of the criticisms of the test is that children who fail it are more likely to have parents who regularly fail to deliver on their promises. From that perspective it doesn’t make sense to wait.
  • namdnay 2y ago
    A marshmallow in the hand is worth two in the bush
    • swayvil 2y ago
      If you abstain from marshmallows for 40 years, I'll give you 1000 marshmallows.
      • rightbyte 2y ago
        Historic returns is no promise of future returns. Terms and conditions apply. The marshmallow test is interesting. Rather than measuring mainly self control, it might be measure more or less only trust.
        • swayvil 2y ago
          It could be a test of which you prefer: an actual-marshmallow or a dream-marshmallow. It's only natural to prefer the first but I think we can be trained to prefer the second.
  • IncreasePosts 2y ago
    Marshmallows in hand have diminishing returns as well. The difference between having 0 marshmallows and 1 marshmallow is much larger than the difference between having 1 and 2, or 2 and 3.
• CarRamrod 2y ago
  Perhaps a more accurate title would be "Why parents of young children should focus on building trust with their kids". In any case, thanks for the enlightening article.
• timthorn 2y ago
  Going off on a tangent, but what's the point of washing an orange?
  • seszett 2y ago
    Maybe in order not to get the (particularly bad, as far as I know) pesticides on your hands? I wash my hands after having peeled an orange, but washing the orange itself seems like a waste to me. I don't really know. I could understand if it was for zesting, but then you're supposed to use untreated oranges anyway because the pesticides don't wash out easily because of the oils on the orange's skin.
  • thefz 2y ago
    Once I saw how fruit is transported and stocked, I wash all of it regardless of whether I am going to eat the skin or not.
    • artemonster 2y ago
      Its the same type of idiotic comment under any tiktok/short/fb video from any kitchen when chefs work without gloves: „EeW, UsE glOveS!!11“ That tiny amount of dirt wont kill you, but definitely keep your immune system in working order
      • exmadscientist 2y ago
        The issue is not the literal dirt. Dirt is fine. The issues are the pesticides and industrial contamination like whatever's on the floor of the packing plant or grocery store.
      • thefz 2y ago
        Plenty of ways to keep my immune system updated providing myself scratches and cuts while mountain biking / trail running, let alone eating snacks while on the trail with my hands absolutely not clean, or by simply breathing in a forest. But ingesting the black residue from exposure to diesel smoke while in transport is not for me, thanks. Feel free to train your immune system to dispatch tar.
• ipnon 2y ago
  There are no iPad kids in Taiwan. You go to a restaurant and all the toddlers are quietly eating. When the tantrums flare the parents gently put a lid on it. It’s truly remarkable, and I don’t have a good theory for it. But it makes going out for dinner a consistent pleasure. I don’t know how to raise kids with an even keel but I am certain that putting a nonstop algorithm in their face and becoming outraged when they inevitably become overstimulated is not the way.
  • eloisius 2y ago
    Must not be the same Taiwan I live in. When I go out to eat I constantly see mom, dad, and kid all zonked on their own devices (usually a phone, granted, not an iPad) instead of having a meal "together." I've also seen plenty of meltdown tantrums. If I had to square your observation, I'd say it's just because there are fewer kids, period, than almost anywhere because people aren't having them.
    • jaapz 2y ago
      I love threads like this One person going "X doesn't happen in Y" is almost always followed by someone saying the exact opposite, solidifying the fact that we all live in our own bubbles, often experiencing the same things in completely different ways Kind of reminds me of when you buy a certain car, you are suddenly primed to see that same car model everywhere, while before you weren't aware of them at all.
      • kaptainscarlet 2y ago
        That is why they say an anecdote is not data
        • ChrisGreenHeur 2y ago
          An anecdote is exactly one data. You cannot extrapolate on one data point.
          • 2y ago
• autoexec 2y ago
  I'm not sure why the focus on "young" parents. Consistent parenting is very important at any age. Kids need their parents to be reliable and dependable with clear expectations and boundaries or things can get bad very quickly. Inconsistent and unpredictable parenting is a common factor in children with oppositional defiant disorder and treatment often includes working with the parents as much as working with the child.
  • dmurray 2y ago
    This got me too, but on reading, it's clear the author means parents of young children. Since the focus of the article is on child development, it's reasonable that it limits its scope to parents of young children, and not e.g. parents of 50-year olds, even if building trust might be nice there too.
  • freddie_mercury 2y ago
    The word "young" doesn't even appear in the article, so not sure what you're talking about. The author never once mentions young parents.
    • autoexec 2y ago
      > The word "young" doesn't even appear in the article, so not sure what you're talking about. The title of the post we're both commenting on, which reads: "Why young parents should focus on building trust with their kids". I was assuming that the title was oddly editorialized, but it's also not that uncommon for articles to change their titles too so it's possible that posting guidelines were followed and it was the article itself that specified "young parents" at some point. Considering the age of the article though, I kind of doubt it.
      • nmeofthestate 2y ago
        It was posted by the author I think. I have no idea why they went with the different title. Isn't HN usually pretty strict about titles, to discourage clickbaiting?
• christkv 2y ago
  My kids got this delayed gratification stuff from the beginning but mostly in the form of. Yes you might get that cookie at the bakery however you have to wait to eat it until after dinner. I'm much more worried about the general lack of resilience and self-reliance I see in a lot of kids and teens. I think it's caused by a combo of parents and schooling. Also the level of anxiety seems very very high.
• silisili 2y ago
  I feel like this article is good, on the verge of great, then makes cultural comments that invalidate the point trying to be made for no real reason. Like the race or location of the parent determines their childhood? The rest is spot on. I became a parent before I was ready, and man, they are little sponges. They learn everything you do, everything you say, embarrassingly so. My 5 year old would lay on the couch to 'rest her back' like me. She'd say weird country sayings I learned from my own Dad, like 'kneehigh to a cricket.' I had a habit of saying 'dicking with' to mean 'messing with' until she got scolded by a teacher at the ripe old age of 7. The hardest part for parents today seems to be putting their phone down. It's what the kid and Mom have fought about forever, then applied to me. It's so easy to lose yourself in your social media, work, reading, etc. and kids are super receptive to it. But not as that effort, but as having a parent who stares at their phone unattentively. Our kid made her own 'phone' out of cardboard as a child, pretending to read and chat on it. That struck me deeply. I never had social media, but as a voracious reader still find myself falling into the trap. Kids notice. Kids today have it harder because of that. My parents didn't have the Internet, they created the world we lived in and tailored it to us. I think that's incredibly rare today. Now she's 13, knows it all, and doesn't want to be picked up anymore. And I tell you, I wish I never had a smartphone at all.
  • motorest 2y ago
    > I feel like this article is good, on the verge of great, then makes cultural comments that invalidate the point trying to be made for no real reason. Is it really for no real reason, though? > Like the race or location of the parent determines their childhood? You might not be aware, but different cultural backgrounds do result in different life experiences. You might have even noticed that that's the whole point of the article. What you try to downplay as "race or location" is actually different social environments and contexts where kids grow. They are used as concrete examples lending support for the hypothesis. It is a behavioral issue that is determined by each one's experience living in a specific social circle with specific social norms.
    • silisili 2y ago
      I reject that premise. It's completely fine to point out societal norms. Neither were particularly offensive. But assuming a Japanese child will have patience where an American will not is the same weird thought that leads to weird guys wanting Japanese wives for 'obedience.' I'm not at all against pointing out or even flexing cultural differences, but they don't matter at all when raising a child(other than of course, if you teach your child by that example.) I have a math brain. I've been teaching her math since she could speak, mainly because she seemed to want to impress me and it's how she would get my attention. Should she instead be bad at math because the Chinese value that more? Should I have stuck to teaching her big macs and bald eagles instead?
• oceanofsolaris 2y ago
  I am not saying that you shouldn’t build trust with your kids (it’s important and only fair to them … they rely on and usually adore you, you should in turn be kind and reliable to them and love them back). But: the null hypothesis for anything which correlates childhood behavior, childhood environment and adult behavior should be that everything is 100% genetic. From my glance at the studies, the marshmallow experiment was instead always done with the null hypothesis that kids and their parents are only connected by living in a common household (aka “shared environment” in the sense that it’s shared between siblings). I would still imagine that some effect of the household on the “delayed gratification” would persist, but it would probably be weaker and I am not sure it would predict much about outcomes as an adult.
  • spiderfarmer 2y ago
    I don’t know if I understand you correctly but I’d argue genetics don’t play that big of a role in preparing your kids for their life as an adult. In my experience as a parent I am frightened daily by how influential I am in my role as a father. They pick up thousands of small things by copying the behavior and messaging of their parents. Even now they’re teenagers.
• ziofill 2y ago
  Not just young parents
• kittikitti 2y ago
  The headline makes it sound like a boomer giving advice to a millennial parent or your in-laws giving unsolicited advice. I started hate-reading it but it turned out to be rather wholesome and good. Thank you!
  • desunit 2y ago
    Nah, I'm millennial and not trying to give any advice. Just sharing my observations while talking to my young daughter. Glad that you liked it!
• m0llusk 2y ago
  When I was a little kid I had a school psychologist give me the marshmallow test. It was extremely awkward because their assumption was the same as used throughout this article, that the marshmallow represented a strongly tempting treat. But it happens that to me as a picky eater marshmallows were always creepy nonfood and to this day I still find them absolutely disgusting. I was also quite disciplined because of my violent and abusive father, so I just sat through it and then gave both of the marshmallows to the first other kid I encountered who said they liked them. When people go on and on about the marshmallow test what they are really saying is they don't really know anything or even actually care about human nature or experience. The whole thing is garbage. Nowadays my paying work is servicing properties which means a lot of awkward sharing of people's homes and families. It is absolutely heartbreaking how many kids are being raised like pets or fun game partners. They end up having near zero executive function and have to be helped with everything including the most basic life decisions. What kids need is a sense of agency and some tools for dealing with the world. Enough of these stupid and disconnected marshmallow games. Let's start actually taking kids seriously and giving them what they need to function as adults.
  • theshackleford 2y ago
    > I was also quite disciplined because of my violent and abusive father I went the complete opposite direction as the result of violent and abusive parents and had never considered that the opposite also occurs, but of course it must. For whatever reason, the more violent my parents became with me, the more violent and defiant I became…and not just with my parents. I came to see everyone and everything as a threat to my safety and began to respond accordingly. Given the whole fight or flight thing, I am wildly predisposed to choosing fight. It took years and I mean years to learn to control this.
  • cylemons 2y ago
    > kids are being raised like pets or fun game partners Does that mean they are neglected or that they are spoon fed everything?
• deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
• wiz21c 2y ago
  Building trust is much more than routine, it's about being predictable yourself. It's also about being supportive of the kids when they want to do something yopuu thik is so-so, also about letting them fail (and help them to recover), making them understand why we ask them to do something, giving them clear limits, but more than all, I'd say, being there (don't look your phone when you're with them, spend time with them when they want to, etc.) And that starts from day zero and last (in my own experience) at least unti 19 years old. It's fun, not difficult and it allows some spare time (yeah, less time than before you got them, but some time nonetheless) for yourself.
• 0x1ceb00da 2y ago
  s/trust/rust/g What could be better than compiling the compiler with the little ones? There is no trust without rust.
• axegon_ 2y ago
  My mom has this very interesting theory: A parent needs to be by a child's side for the first 6-7 years of their life and devote all their time to it. Which is what she did with me. My dad stepped up for the challenge and provided for both of us. My mom had one goal: to make sure that I'd stay curious. She taught me how to read at the age of 4, signed me up for piano lessons(I haven't played piano at all nearly 3 decades later but I can still read notes), she made sure I'd be interested in different cultures, which subsequently pushed me to learn a few languages(which is the biggest contributor to the fact that I am doing very well for myself by a huge margin, forget software engineering, speaking English was the one thing that truly opened up the gates for me). Which on a slightly lower level did exactly what the article says. For contrast, I was old enough to witness and evaluate the extreme opposite - my mom's brother and his wife, who had children when a dog would have sufficed their needs. Their children were pushed aside, no one ever spent any time with them, whenever they started crying, someone jumped over to the toy store, get a bag of toys and shove them in their face so they would shut up. To such an extent that their rooms were filled with unopened toys and I'm not talking about 1 or 2 in a box, I'm talking dozens if not hundreds of toys still in their boxes. Last time I saw these children, they were >10 years old and they had no clue how to use a fork and a knife.
  • guappa 2y ago
    We learnt how to read notes in school. But the stuff you read at 7 is not the stuff people want to hear at concerts :D
  • desunit 2y ago
    I think your mom did a great job, and that’s the whole point of the post. We need to focus on bonding with our kids and building trust with them. I’m actually a father of three, and being a father to my youngest while being much older is an entirely different experience. I pay attention to all the small details with my kids (which is actually why I wrote that post! ).
  • ralfd 2y ago
    How did your siblings do? And where are your cousins now?
• t43562 2y ago
  I know this comment invites disaster but.....what is heaven other than the ultimate delayed gratification? i.e. don't worry about your miserable life as a serf toiling for the lord of the manor 6 days a week because if you're good now you'll be happy after you die. You can imagine the aristocracy laughing to themselves about that idea. Nowadays we get told to save money...but I'm from Zimbabwe where saving money was a total disaster. Instead it was important, when I was still there, to spend it at the earliest possible time on anything physical. The prize for discipline was to be robbed. ... and yet of course if nobody saved money we'd all live an inflationary hell and if some people didn't believe in heaven there might be nothing else to retard their atrocious behaviour.
  • cylemons 2y ago
    Did things get better after dollarization?
    • t43562 2y ago
      I wasn't there but I think dollarization brought stability. There was no need to rush off to spend your money. The "elite" don't really benefit from dollarization though. The currency was a way for them to rob everyone without even trying. All the big black market money dealing companies were ultimately owned by the big players in ZANUPF. So they profited from the difference between the official exchange rate and the black market one. They were able to use their influence to get dollars at the official rate and sell at the unofficial one. So for that and other (more reasonable) reasons they have tried to reintroduce a currency. The place is so humped that I don't know if it can ever be fixed. This is what you get for electing demagogues. I say that as a warning to those of you who think national pride is a substitute for intelligent behavior.
  • dennis_jeeves2 2y ago
    >I know this comment invites disaster but.....what is heaven other than the ultimate delayed gratification? i.e. don't worry about your miserable life as a serf toiling for the lord of the manor 6 days a week because if you're good now you'll be happy after you die. You can imagine the aristocracy laughing to themselves about that idea. You are correct. This is the delusion that peasants feeds their kids so that life appears to be worth living. In the west it's the similar rigmarole of mortgages, debt, divorce, unstable jobs etc that their parents did. Not saying that there is no value to discipline, but it has to be intelligently applied ( not easy) else you will loose. For example saving for a house (vs taking a large mortgage) will not do you good if the inflation is high.
• Frieren 2y ago
  The main challenge that parents face today is on-line culture. Creating trust may mitigate that. In the same way that teachers cannot educated children instead of their parents, even that they help. Social networks should not educate children but they are doing that. Being the problem that social network incentives are misaligned with education. Ad driven feature development and content promotion plus total deregulation make the on-line world a minefield for children. If children at least trust their parents it is possible to mitigate the worst parts of on-line culture.
  • mgfist 2y ago
    I think the far bigger problem is ipad kids. Social media is a problem, but it's not something that young kids understand. But young kids do understand ipads and youtube and mobile games. Seeing 3 year olds zonked out is what worries me. That's a lot harder to untangle, imo.
  • n2dasun 2y ago
    Agreed. I imagine it as the same conundrum discussed in this book, but a "connected" kid's peers now include the entirety of the internet https://drgabormate.com/book/hold-on-to-your-kids/ https://drgabormate.com/book/hold-on-to-your-kids/
• deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
• thaawyy33432434 2y ago
  >instant gratification is practically a way of life. For kids on ADHD spectrum - absolutely. Marshmallow test is flawed, because it doesn't filter for the lack of control over executive function. > A follow-up study showed that kids from stable, reliable homes were much more likely to wait than kids from unpredictable ones. Unstable home is strongly correlated with impaired lack of control over executive function.
• yapyap 2y ago
  old parents as well btw
• benrutter 2y ago
  > A follow-up study showed that kids from stable, reliable homes were much more likely to wait than kids from unpredictable ones. If you’re a kid and the adults in your life constantly break promises, why would you trust them this time? Why wait for the second marshmallow if history tells you it might not show up? Waiting isn’t a character trait; it’s a strategy. And strategies are shaped by experience. I think this is a potentially dangerous oversimplification of the work discrediting this study. The first sentence is pretty accurate, but the rest of the paragraph puts "stability" 100% in the hands of parents, and not childrens surrounding environment due to poverty. Parents can only do so much if there aren't good schools, safe communities or reliable policing. I'm probably being a little too critical here, and it's clearly important as a parent to do everything you can to make sure that your child has a stable, trusworth environment, I have a son and that's exactly what I try to do personally. But I think we also have a massive influence in how we shape society, children in poverty have unpredictable, unstable environments even if they have great parents. There are some really clearly documented outcomes of the effects of poverty, and yet a societal tendency to blame outcomes on parents and character over situation still remains. I'm basically just saying in a long winded way, be a good parent, but do what you can to make the world a safer and more reliable place for other children too.
• echelon_musk 2y ago
  > unwashed orange People wash oranges?! Why? You peel the skin off and discard it. Is the worry that if the skin is dirty then you eat the insides with dirty hands after peeling it?! Edit: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43033732 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43033732
  • desunit 2y ago
    She is 1.9 years old and anything that looks like food will be bitten. But to tell the truth you even need to wash bananas: pesticide residues (you can transfer chemicals to your hands and then to the editable part), can collect dirt/bacteria/rodent excrement.
    • necovek 2y ago
      Unless your or your kids immune system is compromised, that's probably a bit too much care (we did go to similar lengths with a preemie, but not with our second kid).
      • desunit 2y ago
        Yes, for dirt I wouldn't worry at all... but e.g. rodent excrement is quite dangerous: leptospirosis (kidney damage, meningitis, liver failure), hantavirus, salmonella, LCMV. I know, chances are low but I'd be happy to reduce them as much as possible.
        • ArnoVW 2y ago
          And all the pesticides that are sprayed on them.
• wazoox 2y ago
  This applies to adults, too. When you're really poor, it's actually a reasonable strategy NOT to keep money but spend everything as soon as you hit pay day, for instance on storable food. Why's that ? Because money on your bank account can be seized, because you're late on rent, or because you unexpectedly got fined because your rusty old car has a broken light, etc. Food can't be seized, therefore at least you know you'll eat next week, even if it's only cheap pasta and canned sauce, and Nutella basically lasts forever.
• jeeybee 2y ago
  This post is a perfect reminder of Gandhi’s advice: "Be the change you want to see in the world." We can’t expect kids to trust or wait for better outcomes unless we first model consistency and patience ourselves. Our everyday actions—keeping promises, showing reliability—are the real lessons that shape their future.
  • dennis_jeeves2 2y ago
    That's the best and the simplest way to put it. All these ways of how-to-teach kids X seems quite a bit of over analysis.
• deleted 2y ago
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• edferda 2y ago
  I don’t have kids. However, this same concept can be applied, and verified, with dogs. I have made it a rule to never deceive my dog, and she trusts me because it. If I pick up her water bowl to refill and clean it while she is in the middle of drinking, I make it a point to always give it back with fresh water. I have several water bowls around the house , and the one in my room only gets refilled when I see she is actively drinking from it. She sees this removal of something she wants (and needs) as a good thing, because I have never deceived her. I always give it back. If I say we are going for a walk or I grab the leash, we go for a walk. I try to not do things that she would interpret as something not intended. For example, grabbing the leash and not taking her out. With dogs you become really mindful of your actions. They learn so many of your subtle non-verbal cues, that you start to notice how much your body speaks. I often think about this, and it has been a valuable learning experience. If I ever decide to have kids, I will make sure that what I communicate (either verbally or non-verbally) is congruent with my actions. I believe that this, is the surest way to build trust.
  • bloomingkales 2y ago
    "With dogs you become really mindful of your actions." Dogs hold you accountable in the most beautiful way. The best boss. Everything is a trust relationship. I recall finding myself offended when I had difficulty pitching ideas at my workplace. A lot of times it felt like "hey, why don't you trust me or my idea". I only had maybe one or two of those moments, but I have also witnessed other people going through a trust battle just like the one I described at work. This can happen in a family, in a romantic relationship, work, or in society. When the arena becomes entirely about trust, people act out. That's why kids rebel, that's why marriages fall apart, and that's why people leave companies.
  • kodt 2y ago
    So if your dog required medication, you would never hide the pill in peanut butter for example?
    • gretch 2y ago
      It's not a deception, in the same way that a chicken nugget is not chicken hidden inside of breading. It simply is pill with peanut butter
• debeloo 2y ago
  The article mentions the marshmallow experiment. I wonder if it's "inverse" has been studied. Promise the child another one after 15 minutes but then either not deliver on the promise or even steal the one marshmallow. I know people that had the equivalent happen to them as kids, and I think it had enormous effect on their personality as adults. Depending how often it happens, I wouldn't be surprised if that's how you raise sociopaths.
• JohnMakin 2y ago
  This is spot on - I came from a very abusive and neglectful home, bordering on torture, and the way it carries into my life into my middle age is funny to look back on when it comes to “scientific” studies like the marshmellow test. In many ways, my early distrustful experiences have led me to become stronger in other ways that make up for my weaknesses. Not everyone is like this, unfortunately, and I very much agree with this message - kids should feel safe for maximum development. Especially kids on the spectrum, where frequently broken promises can possibly be more traumatic than it would otherwise seem.
  • cyrillite 2y ago
    Yes. Adversity is only good for development if it’s a strong enough signal to require growth while also being within the range of adaptability, relative to your environment (support system, resources, etc.). A given event might wipe out Child A, might cause adaptation in Child B, and might be within the recoverable range but above the adaptive threshold for Child C. The reliable path to growth is small but sufficient challenge, response, adaptation and recovery, repeat as frequently as is beneficial.
• scotty79 2y ago
  It's actually possible that tolerance for delayed gratification might have nothing to do with life success. It might be purely coincidential that affluent parents create environments that make delying gratification easier, but the success is transferred to their offspring by much simpler mechanism, inheritance.
• albert_e 2y ago
  Author Oliver Burkeman discusses this marshmallow test in his book Meditations for Mortals. Paraphrasing from memory - Who is to say that stockpiling as many marshmallows as you can is inherently more virtuous or objectively more positive than enjoying one marshmallow in the moment you and the marshmallow are ready for each other. "Now" is the one moment you are truly alive. Rest is a concept.
• atoav 2y ago
  One of the most important points about parenting is that kids learn from watching you. That means what you say has far less impact than people colloquially think it does. What matters is whst you do and how that relates to the words you say. E.g. if you want your kids to value culture, it is way more effective to live in a way that shows you value it, instead of just saying culture is important and never touching it with a ten foot pole yourself. You could never say culture is importsnt and go to the theater and museum every other weekend and that would be way more effective than telling your kid about the importance every day. The latter doesn't teach the kid that culture is important, it teaches them that there are certain things your parent wants you to be, that they themselves don't manage to do despite them thinking it is important. As a kid your parents are likely the most powerful figure in your lifes, so if they aren't able to do it, how could you? Any parents needs to have a keen eye out for these implicit lessons they are teaching their kids. The crazy thing is that these implicit lessons can at times be the polar opposite of the lesson you want to teach them. And it is okay to fail, if they see you are trying to improve yourself, guess what the implicit lesson is? That working on yourself is not only normal, but a good thing that even parents do.
• Liffoldw3a 2y ago
  As a parent, you can't demand trust. It's a gradual process that requires mutual commitment and it will inevitably strengthen your relationship. It will also set your child up to develop healthy relationships in the future.
  • dtgriscom 2y ago
    Well, that's always true. It's just that if you demand trust of an adult, they'll pretend to give it to you; children will make it clear (somehow) that they're reserving judgement.
    • Liffoldw3a 2y ago
      [dead]
• TheAlchemist 2y ago
  "Another thing I’ve noticed is how much modeling matters. My daughter watches everything I do. If I tell her to wait and then lose my patience two seconds later because the internet is slow, what’s the lesson there?" As a father of 3 kids, I can confirm 100% this is true. Once you understand that, your life changes completely. You realize there is somebody in this world, who will model their life after yours. What kind of example you give them is up to you. Suddenly, "be the change you want to see in the world" gets a whole new meaning !
  • dtgriscom 2y ago
    You know the world by what you experience. Infants and toddlers have a very small world (mostly their home); whatever that world is like becomes their expected reality.
  • nemo44x 2y ago
    It’s 100% true. It’s heartbreaking when a toddler does something you don’t approve of and you ask them why and they point to something you did.
  • tayo42 2y ago
    Maybe that's true of little kids but idk if that going to 100% dictate the adult they turn into. There's alot of things my parents did that I never took on.
  • rusk 2y ago
    There’s a point where you realise you are now supporting cast in the movie of your life.
• DFHippie 2y ago
  It's not just kids. I find this works with pets as well: be predictable in delivering their necessities -- food, exercise, play, affection -- and they behave better. Make them beg and they behave worse. Also, businesses thrive on trust. If a business can predict and prepare for conditions, if it can depend on loans, grants, services, the economy, it can invest and thrive. There's a lesson for our current moment in there.
• dtgriscom 2y ago
  I've always taken comfort from the fact that my two boys were different on day zero. This tells me that although I have a great deal of influence on them, it isn't all up to me: it's both nurture and nature. (Takes a bit of the pressure off.)
  • cyrillite 2y ago
    Yes, but outcomes are largely multi-realisable. It’s true that nature has a big role to play, but I think a lot of that role is expressed in how it changes nurture dynamics. A shy child might not develop productive, healthy confrontation and resolution skills if nurture isn’t sensitive to that factor and willing to create an environment where those skills are learned. My nature affected my parents nurture, as well as my other caregivers, mentors, and teachers. I think that’s the more significant role of nature. Nurturers could be much more attuned to this and more mindfully think through how to test for and pursue the right end goals, given different natures.
• rednafi 2y ago
  Parenting is one of the hardest things I will probably ever do in my life. I grew up in a middle-class family in SEA, and when I came to the West, I realized what a fantastic job my parents did raising me. Here, things are quite different. Many upper-middle-class families struggle to provide stability, proper education, and a loving environment—things we always took for granted growing up. This isn't a denigration of Western society. More like an observation of how capitalism has made both parents work like crazy and still feel like they don’t have enough. It’s not a panacea in the East. We had to deal with overpopulation. Absurd competition in schools, colleges, and universities scarred my childhood. But I'm thankful to my parents for what they endured for me.
  • lnsru 2y ago
    My some friends and almost all neighbors could be my grandparents by age. And they love to invite me for a tea and share their memories. West was wildly different back then. Much better with rising economy and much better vibe. Traveling with kids was normal. Like Barcelona, Nice, Paris were normal destinations (I am in Germany). Skiing in the Alps absolutely normal even for poorer families. Rents were high, but not impossible. The job stability was there and infrastructure was built in their eyes. They saw when train line was built and the train started coming every two hours, every hour, every twenty minutes. Now the same train is constantly late and occasionally canceled. And one old guy told me openly, that he’s not envy me rising kids today. It’s kinda stupid when pay rise does not cover inflation and increasing taxes. Infrastructure is collapsing. Ancient school system is stuck producing factory workers for factories that are long gone. It’s just hard time being a parent.
    • rednafi 2y ago
      > Skiing in the Alps was absolutely normal even for poorer families. Rents were high, but not impossible. Job stability was there, and infrastructure was built in their eyes. I'm in Germany too. Rent in Berlin makes me glaze over this sentence with dreamy eyes. Despite being in tech and paying taxes in the 90th percentile, these big cities always find ways to drive you crazy. I don't have kids yet, but I'm not sure I'll be able to shield them from all of this shit as well as my parents did. > Now the same train is constantly late and occasionally canceled. Tell me more. > And one old guy told me openly that he doesn't envy me raising kids today. It’s kinda stupid when a pay raise doesn’t cover inflation and increasing taxes. I don't wanna be rich. I just want my pay to cover my yearly expense increases. It's getting more expensive every year, and people are scared shitless because of layoffs. Most people don’t even bring up raises to their managers. No wonder westerners don’t want kids—people just can’t afford them comfortably anymore. > The ancient school system is stuck producing factory workers for factories that are long gone. It’s just a hard time to be a parent. Schools aren’t qualified to teach kids the right things. Parents aren’t qualified either; it’s just that Americans like to think homeschooling is the way. It’s not—many of the parents I’ve seen homeschooling didn’t even go to college. People make so much more money in the West, but my parents live a far more comfortable life in Bangladesh than I do. They’re retired, live in an apartment three times the size of mine, and have enough not to rely on anyone. Plus, all the SEA shit doesn’t affect them now that they’re out of work. I envy them so much.
• nemo44x 2y ago
  Everyone hate hypocrite and little kids especially hate hypocrites. You really need to be consistent with what you tell them and how your own actions. It’s so easy to mess this up so you need to humble yourself and explain that you’re not perfect either.
• amunozo 2y ago
  I'm not a father (yet), but I thought a lot about this, and I totally agree with everything. It is good to hear it from somebody with actual experience.
• gardenhedge 2y ago
  Maybe the experiment was planned better than the video but in the video it's not clear if the children are aware it's an experiment and if they're aware of what an experiment is in general.
• jmyeet 2y ago
  > Kids crave predictability. I cannot overstate the importance of this. This particularly affects neurodivergent people. The article also (correctly) mentions how socioeconomic status plays a role here. Food insecurity erodes psychological safety. Housing insecurity erodes psychological safety. Having to do unpredictable and extra jobs just to make ends meet such that a parent has unpredictable availability hurts psychological safety. Having to break promises because of circumstances hurts psychological safety and this is just way more likely if you're struggling, despite your best intent. It's worth ruminating on this when you start to understand how every aspect of society is designed to extract value from you at every possible moment. Third and fourth jobs, medical debt forcing you to work, student debt, mortgage debt, high rent prices. Yet the thirst for ever-increasing profits is unquenchable. Part of the reason that people such as myself rail against this system and the society we've built around work is how damaging it is to society as a whole. South Korea is really the end stage of this pipeline, where birth rates are around ~0.71 children per woman as there are so many disincentives to have children and, for that child to have a good life, everything gets invested into their education. The pressure is intense such that the teen suicide rate is huge. And this birth rate is so low that 3 generations of this will decrease the population by 90%.
• libsofhn 2y ago
  [flagged]
• ineedasername 2y ago
  What if you live in an unpredictable society where promises are often broken and trust outside of a chosen few should rarely be given? Rightfully, the article says kids shouldn’t be judged for not waiting if there are factors that said, “hmm, that second marshmallow may be a lie.” But I’m not sure the story goes far enough in this sentiment: when trust has been broken, waiting for the second marshmallow is the less adaptive response. The waiters are the kids behaving against a likely outcome. To the extent that this might predict later behavior at all then my guess would be that that non-trust marshmallow-eaters might show more determination to go after what they want than non-trust marshmallow-waiters. And the true test would be which kids adapt their waiting choices according to the promises kept/not kept. But then again sometimes a marshmallow is just a marshmallow.
• andrewla 2y ago
  This is stupid. The article misses its own point. The marshmallow test does not predict success in life. Success in life predicts the marshmallow test. All the other factors they measure are variants of this. Success of parents, stability of home life, etc., are not random events that happen to a child. They are contributors via a variety of uncontrolled factors that correlate to being successful later in life. In other words, doing things in your child's life in an attempt to improve their Marshmallow Metric (tm) is useless cargo culting.
  • mgfist 2y ago
    I don't think the author disagrees. He's not implying that the marshmallow test is the cause for success. I think he says what you say - that passing the marshmallow test is a measure of success of how well you parented a child. Note the last sentence: > And who knows, maybe one day they will pass their own version of the marshmallow test The marshmallow test is just a rhetorical symbol for patience and virtue. I.e. "If I do well as a parent, my child will grow up to be patient and virtuous". Not, "If I get my kid to do well on this random pop-psych experiment right now, they'll grow up to be successful".
    • andrewla 2y ago
      The idea of the article is to create an environment at home so that your child feels secure in the sense of being able to pass the marshmallow test. This is the same sort of logic that leads to the idea that you should have a large home library, because that is predictive of success, or make sure your kids don't have holes in their shoes because that is predictive of success. If you "fix" these things they lose their predictive power. Similarly if everyone tries to modify their parenting behavior so that the children can pass a hypothetical marshmallow test, then you will find that the test is no longer predictive of success.
      • mgfist 2y ago
        > If you "fix" these things they lose their predictive power. Similarly if everyone tries to modify their parenting behavior so that the children can pass a hypothetical marshmallow test, then you will find that the test is no longer predictive of success. Maybe in the end nurture has no impact and the result is 100% due to nature. But what's the point in being a parent if that's the case? At that point is a philosophical debate akin to determinism vs free will. Maybe everything is pre-determined. And if it is, then why bother do anything? I think the moral of the article is that children will do as you do. So probably better to do virtuous things. Maybe in the end it won't matter, but nothing really matters in the end.
• PaulHoule 2y ago
  I'm just waiting for the followup study that showed the greedy kids who took two marshmallows got fat.
• slowmovintarget 2y ago
  Frustrating that it has zero sources. The study: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0167268119302641#abs0001 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S016726811... Other articles: - https://anderson-review.ucla.edu/new-study-disavows-marshmallow-tests-predictive-powers/ https://anderson-review.ucla.edu/new-study-disavows-marshmal... - https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/new-research-marshmallow-test-suggests-delayed-gratification-doesnt-equal-success-180969234/ https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/new-research-marsh...
• ksynwa 2y ago
  I get to closely watch my nephew being raised. He is about 2.5 years old now. If his parents need to go somewhere, they do this thing where they slip away while someone distracts the child. Really breaks my heart to see this. I can see the convenience factor. But I noticed that when the child is with them, he very often looks over his shoulders when they go out of his view. The kid is really sweet and deserves respect and honesty.
  • latentcall 2y ago
    Can’t they bring him with them sometimes? I have a 9 month old so I don’t get it yet but I would bring my daughter with us most of the time in that situation and just tell her this time it needs to be me and Mom only and she can come next time.
  • dkarl 2y ago
    Honesty is not straightforward at that age. I know someone who grew up in a village and whose parents left her with an aunt to find work in a city when she was three. They explained to her what was happening, but she didn't understand what the city was or the time scales they were talking about. The next day she didn't understand why they were still gone. After a while she decided they had abandoned her and were never coming back. When they came back six months later, she was angry and confused because she thought they were gone forever. The way she remembered it as a child was that she was told nothing. But being older and knowing her parents and her aunt as an adult, she realized that there was no point where the adult with her wasn't telling her exactly what was happening. She just couldn't comprehend it at that age. She didn't understand what a month felt like. She didn't understand that there were distances a thousand times longer than the length of her village. She didn't understand what a city was, or that her parents intended for her to come live with them there if they found good work. It just wasn't possible for her to understand. It didn't matter if she trusted her aunt or not, her parents were supposed to be there, and they were not.
    • ksynwa 2y ago
      Well in my scenario the separation is not this extensive. I am talking about when one of them has to go out for work or even to walk the dog for 15 minutes. I get your point that there is no explaining to a child that young what exactly is happening because it is beyond their comprehension. But I think conditioning them to be able to handle goodbyes knowing that the parent will be coming back soon is a good practice.
• gadders 2y ago
  This is a good analysis of the validity (and reproducibility) or otherwise of the marshmallow test: https://anderson-review.ucla.edu/new-study-disavows-marshmallow-tests-predictive-powers/ https://anderson-review.ucla.edu/new-study-disavows-marshmal...
• sanj 2y ago
  The marshmallow test without a control for whether the child is hungry and/or how recently they've been fed is worthless.
• jheriko 2y ago
  The title is moronic, the content reads like it is written by someone completely out of touch with reality. This is a common sense idea... the fact that this required this level thought is scary.
  • oldandboring 2y ago
    Warning: snark incoming. The article also has a strong whiff of: the author has one young, neurotypical child and is now pretty sure he's got this whole parenting thing figured out, decides to blog about it. Then the overwhelmingly young, male, childless HN brigade descends with virtue-signaling responses about what amazing parents they'd be if, you know, they had kids, and how easy it would be.
• sanex 2y ago
  Makes logical sense to read about. We give my daughter as much consistency as possible Family meals, bedtime, we live on a routine... She's still a tiny terrorist.
  • koolba 2y ago
    > She's still a tiny terrorist. And any good parent knows, you don’t negotiate with terrorists!
• mbonnet 2y ago
  I cannot imagine how different my life would be if I didn't trust both of my parents to the ends of the earth and beyond from the moment of consciousness. I also cannot imagine how different my life would be if despite that, they were untrustworthy people.
• zitterbewegung 2y ago
  The marshmallow test has been refuted… https://anderson-review.ucla.edu/new-study-disavows-marshmallow-tests-predictive-powers/ https://anderson-review.ucla.edu/new-study-disavows-marshmal...
  • ahuth 2y ago
    That's one of the points of the article