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Apple’s software is the best in the non-free software world compared to Google's or Microsoft's, IMO. But that doesn't mean it can't be better.
by hei-lima 5mo ago
Apple’s software is the best in the non-free software world compared to Google's or Microsoft's, IMO. But that doesn't mean it can't be better.
- leptons 5mo agoI'm not sure how you can think Finder is better than the alternatives. It's awful, and has always been awful, IMO.
- paradox460 5mo agoIt has one feature I wish everyone else would copy: Miller columns. But even after NeXT used them 35+ years ago, they have remarkably little penetration into other OSes. I use Pathfinder on MacOS, and it's generally a lot better than finder, but there are features I wish would carry over from other OSes. Windows file check boxes are incredibly useful
- leptons 5mo agoMiller columns is the biggest waste of screen space that's possible in an OS, and MacOS chose it for Finder. And Apple has been dying on that hill for decades. It's one of the main reasons Finder is awful and Apple's design choices are a joke.
- lunarboy 5mo agooh the horror stories I've heard from friends at Apple. Don't think I've heard anyone who writes tests at Apple
- deleted 5mo ago[deleted]
- 2muchcoffeeman 5mo agoSo, they’re just like every other software outfit.
- cybercatgurrl 5mo agoand people wonder why they have random regressions in updates. this is it. unit tests and other types of tests are a cornerstone of software stability and does the bulk of the job of preventing regressions
- Congeec 5mo agoBest in terms of what? Quality Control? UI/UX?
- toephu2 5mo agoGoogle is much better at software than Apple...most in the Valley would agree with this.
- throw0101a 5mo ago> Google is much better at software than Apple...most in the Valley would agree with this. Perhaps. Assuming it actually keeps existing: * https://killedbygoogle.com https://killedbygoogle.com
- thiht 5mo agoGoogle software is trash
- tonyedgecombe 5mo agoOnly if you put aside the fact that Google makes its money from selling your attention.
- actionfromafar 5mo agoTheir IMAP is okay, I guess.
- whatsupdog 5mo ago[flagged]
- antipaul 5mo agoPerformance wise, they often seem solid. Usability wise (UI/UX/design), they are in the gutter.
- pityJuke 5mo agoGod, I miss Android so much. iOS still annoys me. The app situation is sadly better on iOS, though.
- tristanb 5mo agoGoogle has one of the worst commercial UX of any products I've ever used.
- deleted 5mo ago
- this_user 5mo agoTheir legendary "goto fail" debacle as well as the ease with which ios has repeatedly been jailbroken would disagree. I think geohot once quipped: "My lawyer could write a better malloc."
- wfme 5mo agoDare we not look to Android. goto fail was relevant in 2014 - perhaps not the most useful point in 2026.
- ninju 5mo ago12 year old coding bug https://www.imperialviolet.org/2014/02/22/applebug.html https://www.imperialviolet.org/2014/02/22/applebug.html
- Jtarii 5mo agoNever understood that if statement style, it seems to only exist to create subtle bugs.
- deleted 5mo ago[deleted]
- array_key_first 5mo agoIt's slightly less lines of code which is nice. I'm someone who prefers terseness so I get it. However, it's bad. I much prefer the rare, elusive, postfix if: goto fail if (condition); It can create some very readable code when used right, with short and simple conditionals.
- bch 5mo agoI think of it as BSD style, though of course it could be suggested/mandated elsewhere - [...]Use a space after keywords (if, while, for, return, switch). No braces are used for control statements with zero or only a single statement unless that statement is more than a single line, in which case they are permitted.[0] As I look, GNU guide is less specific, but examples[1] show the same style. The good thing is that -Wmisleading-indentation [2] (comes along with -Wall) catches this indentation error. [0] https://man.openbsd.org/style https://man.openbsd.org/style - happens to be same for at least NetBSD. [1] https://www.gnu.org/prep/standards/html_node/Syntactic-Conventions.html https://www.gnu.org/prep/standards/html_node/Syntactic-Conve... [2] https://gcc.gnu.org/onlinedocs/gcc/Warning-Options.html https://gcc.gnu.org/onlinedocs/gcc/Warning-Options.html
- apazzolini 5mo ago> Apple's software is the best in the [category of shit software]
- hei-lima 5mo agoI kinda agree with this. But that doesn't affect my statemente.
- bayindirh 5mo agoTheir software is better than most (if not all) of closed-source universe. That's true, but the problem is, they were better in the past. I'm using both Linux and macOS close to 20 years (Linux is even more than 20, IIRC), and macOS (aka Mac OS) used to be snappier, more stable, more uniform and had incredibly low number of papercuts around the UI. Now it has some nasty thorns here and there, while Linux is improving steadily and not regressing much as macOS. Apple needs to overhaul their software stack. They can use a lot of sanding and polishing to bring the shine back. They need another "Snow Leopard" release, as many people say. On the other hand, even with all these bells and whistles, they can't even get close to the composability of Linux systems. Doing so will also damage their bottom line, so they won't, and that's OK.
- antipaul 5mo agoA Snow Leopard move, at least for iOS, is what's on deck: https://www.macrumors.com/2026/03/15/ios-27-will-reportedly-be-like-mac-os-x-snow-leopard/ https://www.macrumors.com/2026/03/15/ios-27-will-reportedly-...
- ProfessorLayton 5mo agoA major reason Snow Leopard was well received was because of how performant it felt along with the bug fixes. What isn't mentioned anywhere near as much is that it dropped a lot of hardware (PPC). The last G4 Powerbook got about 1.5y of OS support before it was dropped. iOS 26 is slated to drop a bunch of iPhone models. macOS is dropping all all macs with Intel CPUs. A Snow Leopard release isn't great news for a lot of people.
- selcuka 5mo ago> The last G4 Powerbook got about 1.5y of OS support before it was dropped. > macOS is dropping all all macs with Intel CPUs. Those two cases are not really comparable though, are they? The last Intel CPU Mac was the 2019 Mac Pro, which was discontinued in 2023.
- 5mo ago
- whatsupdog 5mo agoIt's worst in case of freedom, which is the most important aspect for me. Every release they are slowly turning in the screws and make it harder and harder to install apps from developers who haven't jumped through all the hoops that Apple forces them to. I hope this change in leadership will change this strategy.
- hedora 5mo agoGoogle is worse. Most of their apps are cloud only with no E2EE. Also, they are much more user hostile when deciding what goes in the store (they make money off spying, but apple makes money off hw, so this makes sense). Both those ecosystems are rapidly enshittifying (apple cannot even reliably process keystrokes with subsecond latency, and google is banning sideloading). We need a third, actually user-serving and open alternative. Maybe the new CEO will slow or reverse the bleeding on the iOS / MacOS side.
- whatsupdog 5mo agoGoogle has so far allowed installing apps without their explicit permission. So it's much higher on freedom index, imo. And there's no obligation to use Google cloud apps. There's alternative for every Google cloud app.
- modeless 5mo agoAlso, Pixels have unlocked bootloaders and Android is open source to the point where third parties can and do make alternative OS distributions.
- cwillu 5mo agoAnd it's necessary to have a second phone to actually use any of that while maintaining access to one's banking app. The hardware is nominally open only because they enforce participation in their software ecosystem via other means.
- bryanlarsen 5mo agoAs a cross platform developer, MacOS is far buggier than Linux or Windows in my experience.
- dlahoda 5mo agoyou mean `bugs i have as developer` or bugs reported by users of your xplat app?
- bryanlarsen 5mo agoBugs in the OS I encounter as a developer.
- bryanlarsen 5mo agoP.S. even if it is buggier than Windows, MacOS has a lot fewer bugs than our app! We do encounter bugs in Linux, but they are almost invariably fixed in up to date distros. Unfortunately we are forced to support old enterprise Linux distros.
- boringg 5mo agoHuh, Windows?
- bryanlarsen 5mo agoYes. I generally don't have to deal with the mess Microsoft has put on top of their bloated but solid kernel / base OS.
- tyleregeto 5mo agoOpinions vary, but I've never found Apple software to be particularly good. Their hardware is almost always exceptional. I'd go further and say I am constantly frustrated by how difficult their software can make basic tasks. I often find many of their UX patterns unintuitive, or even feel user hostile at times. Small example, I really want to view passwords as I type them in. I constantly miss type passwords on touch screens. User error maybe, but frustrating experience. XCode is my least favourite IDE that I use regularily.
- pkaodev 5mo agoMy experience is similar. Great hardware. Software is good until there is something I want to do that isn't very obvious, then it's either a hassle or not possible. My favourite example being looking for the volume mixer, and after looking online the top advice seemed to be to pay for a 3rd party application for that... Wtf?
- Hammershaft 5mo agoThere are so many basic gaps in functionality and so many underbaked & poorly designed Mac OS features that I end up papering over with paid 3rd party applications.
- Schiendelman 5mo agoThat is how Apple makes money. By design.
- wtallis 5mo agoIn order for that to actually be a money-making strategy for Apple, those third-party apps that address weaknesses in the OS would have to be sold through the Mac App Store so that Apple gets a cut. I've been a Mac user since before there was a Mac App Store, and I've never bought such a utility through the App Store. I have paid for several such apps over the years in ways that did not generate any direct revenue for Apple, and most of those apps likely could not be distributed through the App Store because of how they muck around with private APIs and other OS internals. Those third-party apps do increase the overall appeal of Apple's platform, but suggesting that Apple might want to encourage that situation rather than improve their OS themselves sounds like a broken windows fallacy.
- soperj 5mo agoSafari is a shinning example of how wrong this is. Sorry. The fact that they tie the mobile version to the OS version is just ridiculous.
- raw_anon_1111 5mo agoSo exactly why is that a big deal when unlike Android - they actually keep their phones updated?
- j1elo 5mo agoUnlike Android indeed, when you maintain a perfectly working phone that happens (by accident or force of nature) to live longer than the official lifetime some executives in a remote office had decided to grant it, the web browser cannot be updated any more. Just the single most security sensitive piece of software of any computer. Who would have guessed people were going to complain!
- raw_anon_1111 5mo agoThe iPhone 5s - released in 2013 - just got an update January 2026. The latest version of Chrome requires the version of Android released in 2019. Even phones that old aren’t getting other security updates. Is that really the argument you want to make?
- SchemaLoad 5mo agoThey give occasional security patches for the most critical bugs. They don't do full ios/safari updates. The iphone 5s is on ios 12.
- raw_anon_1111 5mo agoAnd neither does Google. The latest version of Chrome requires the version of Android released in 2019. The latest version of iOS supports my iPad released in 2019.
- seanmcdirmid 5mo ago> Apple’s software is the best in the non-free software world compared to Google's or Microsoft's, IMO. But that doesn't mean it can't be better. 20+ years ago, software was so horrible that we were just tolerating it, and every new OS release was a big deal because there was hope things would get better! Today an OS release comes out and I have to be bothered by automatic "you must upgrade messages" to even care. People forget how horrible it used to be, and if you still use windows, how much worse it could be when vs. Apple (and let's not get started on Linux).
- angoragoats 5mo agoI was using (and writing) software as long as 35+ years ago and I disagree with your assessment that we were “just tolerating it” 20 years ago. 20 years ago, I was using Mac OS X Tiger on a new Intel-based MacBook Pro and it ran like a dream, and had software which mostly followed Apple’s human interface guidelines. Now I run macOS Tahoe and curse under my breath at the lack of design consistency and the iPad-ification of the interface. I’m also shown ads, and in some cases ads that can’t be dismissed or disabled, for things like iCloud and Apple Music. When it comes to the software, I’d take the Tiger experience over the Tahoe one hands-down.
- seanmcdirmid 5mo agoI used 20+ years ago as a guideline, not an absolute. Of course the intel MBP came out in 2006 (or 2007?) and was an absolute dream setup where hardware caught up with Windows while the software was pretty good as well (I was using a Mac since 2004 or so). I don't think software is improving today, which is why I have to be nagged to upgrade. I don't think it worse, but my computer usage probably varies greatly from yours.
- angoragoats 5mo ago> I used 20+ years ago as a guideline, not an absolute. I understood that, and I was using it in the same way. > I don't think software is improving today, which is why I have to be nagged to upgrade. I don't think it worse… Yeah this is the part I was disagreeing with, and I gave a couple examples showing why it’s meaningfully worse now. I’ve been using Macs since the 1980s. The timeframe of 20-25 years ago (post Classic Mac OS) was some of the best software Apple has ever released.
- Arainach 5mo agoWhat metrics or experiences lead you to that conclusion? I've used basically all of the major operating systems for 30+ years and I cannot stand macOS. I use a Mac as one of my work devices, and off the top of my head: * Basic things such as window management require third party tools to get things that are table stakes everywhere else. Even with third party tools doing anything with a "full screen" mode is not going to work the way you expect. * You can't have separate scroll directions for your trackpad and your external mouse. * External peripherals in general are a disaster. Every time I connect or disconnect from a docking station my windows are left in awkward positions sized larger than my screen and I need to drag them around * macOS seems to store a different set of monitor orientations based on what USB port I connect my dock to - same dock, same monitors, 2 different layouts I had to configure independently. I don't even know how you could accomplish that if you wanted it - and absolutely no one wants that. * Multiple monitors is constantly an afterthought, whether it's menus, the dock, layouts, what have you * The Settings app is impossible to find anything in. You have to search, and that works OK sometimes, but the layout has no rhyme, reason, or comprehensible order * Safari. Enough said. I could keep going, but I absolutely do not associate Apple with quality software.
- dlahoda 5mo agofor hardware you tried, was it all apple?
- inquirerGeneral 5mo ago[dead]
- SJMG 5mo agoI'm a decade long Safari user. What's your grievance with Safari and what do you find better?
- andrekandre 5mo agonot the op but for me safari has been deteriorating for years: 1. ios performance in scrolling and loading (especially on my ipad pro m2) is unbearably slow, just stutters everywhere when loading a page in the background 2. tap-and-hold to open a link menu is so strange; sometimes it highlights text instead of showing the menu, sometimes it works ok, there is some kind of strange ui timing issue at work 3. on ipad and ios the tab overview display scrolling is absolutely appalling like 4fps level slow... completely unbearable to scroll through tab previews 4. developer tools are abysmal compared to chrome 5. on desktop performance is also extremely slow compared to chrome, its night and day 6. battery usage is so bad on ipad, just leaving some tabs open they run down the battery and chug memory (i know this is more a web thing, but they should at least freeze tabs in the background or make it an option) 7. just strange bugs on ipad, when tapping a text field the keyboard pops up, then suddenly disappears and the pops up again... just a terrible app etc etc lots of paper cuts, but the performance issues are the biggest for me... i like the tab groups + auto save and icloud sync and built-in spellcheck, but its getting harder and harder to resist the alternatives
- nixass 5mo ago> Apple’s software is the best in the non-free software world compared to Google's or Microsoft Apple's iOS is hot garbage. The macOS is not far behind on how horrible the UX is
- dlahoda 5mo agowhat is better?
- Danox 5mo agoIf you are reading Hackers News for the most part, you are out of touch with the normal computer users and that was said over and over again with the introduction of the Mac Neo which appears to be a hit among normal everyday computer users who have never heard of Hackers News, a family member recently just bought one of the new Mac M5 PowerBook's and I expected some cry for help setting it up. Guess what there was none. In the answer to your question, there is nothing better overall across hardware and software top to bottom and that applies to computers, smartphones, tablets, and watches across five ecosystems.
- tehlike 5mo agoApple could use a fresh approach to their software release cycles. I wish i could talk to someone at apple on this.
- mcmcmc 5mo agoHave you tried Siri lately?
- modeless 5mo agoAndroid and Windows are better than iOS and macOS in many non-trivial ways. They have their own problems too, but as a user of all of them I don't prefer the Apple software. Apple's hardware, on the other hand, is clearly superior.
- dlahoda 5mo agowhat is most non trivial way example?
- modeless 5mo agoAndroid has a far better OTA update system than iOS. The notification system is much better and the default keyboard is better too. It supports multiple user profiles that you can switch between instantly, with their own separate apps and settings and home screens, a long requested feature for iPads that is inexplicably still absent on iOS. Windows has a better desktop compositor and window manager than macOS. It supports Nvidia GPUs with CUDA. It also has WSL so you can use real package managers instead of homebrew.
- Marsymars 5mo ago"winget configure" is pretty great in Windows - you can store your personal .config file on GitHub and use it whenever you set up a new PC to install everything you want, uninstall all the cruft you don't want, and set all the Windows config you want via registry keys.
- wewtyflakes 5mo agoI have not found this to be true for the software side of things. - Apple Music's UI/UX is quite rough on MacOS. - Trying to use my iPhone to type a long password on my Apple TV is hit-or-miss. - For some reason trying to view a password using Keychain requires you to enter your credentials twice, every time, for as long as I can remember.
- Schiendelman 5mo agoMost of the main apps on Apple TV shouldn't require a password anymore; you log in on your phone to authorize. The next Apple TV should simplify this further...
- BugsJustFindMe 5mo ago> Apple’s software is the best in the non-free software world compared to Google's or Microsoft's But it's worst in the Apple software world compared to Apple's. In fairness, Microsoft has also been in steady tragic decline for a while. I don't know about Google.
- selectnull 5mo ago> Apple’s software is the best [...] compared to Google's or Microsoft's Honestly, that's such a low bar to hit.
- bigupthewhole 5mo agoHave you seen xcode? Have you seen Appstore connect in comparison to Google play console?
- poolnoodle 5mo agoIn my opinion Android (especially the Google Pixel flavour) is vastly more intuitive and logical than i(Pad)OS these days. I almost need to consult a manual to change my wallpaper on iOS. Anything to do with file management or notifications is also just plain bad on iOS. The keyboard is bad. Background downloads don't work reliably. If I want to transfer photos from a computer onto an iPhone I need special software and then cannot delete those pictures on the phone itself. I can choose between 3 multitasking paradigms on iPad – terrible!
- gcau 5mo agoI find it hard to believe this comment isn't sarcastic. Apple's software, atleast in particular macos, is horrendous - to the point I ditched my m2 macbook for a thinkpad because of how bad it was. It's like a toy OS.
- lateforwork 5mo ago> Apple’s software is the best in the non-free software world compared to Google's or Microsoft's You are comparing against the wrong thing. Compare it to NeXTSTEP from 35 years ago: https://infinitemac.org/1989/NeXTStep%201.0 https://infinitemac.org/1989/NeXTStep%201.0 NeXTSTEP was both more usable and better looking.
- mlinhares 5mo agoI haven't really had to work with microsoft software but apple's software quality is abysmal beyond the OS (and even the OS has places that are a joke, like the bluetooth stack). I'd rather use nano than having to write code on xcode.
- root_axis 5mo agoMaybe 20 years ago, today it's no better than anything else - well designed in some aspects, total trash in others. The stewards of xcode, spotlight and siri (among many other stinkers) are disqualified from the category of "best"
- pdpi 5mo agoI still prefer macOS to desktop Linux or (yikes) Windows, but the margin has gotten smaller over the last several years. Unfortunately, that's less because Linux or Windows have gotten that much better, and more because macOS has stalled (and even gone backwards in some ways).
- Keyframe 5mo agoWhat do you mean? Most if not all Apple's software is not even the best in their own category, let alone "in the non-free software world compared to Google's or Microsoft's". If we look at only these three and leave other competitors, you want to tell us that Safari is better than Chrome (Edge is the same now), Pages is better than Docs and Word, Numbers is better than Sheets and Excel, Keynote is better than Slides (arguably) or PowerPoint, Mail is better than Gmail or Outlook, iCloud better than Google Drive or OneDrive (ok lol), Facetime better than Meet or Teams, Apple Maps better than Google Maps or Bing Maps, Siri better than Google Assistant or Copilot... ? Outside the two.. Fina Cut better than Premiere Pro or Resolve or Avid, Logic Pro better than Pro Tools or Ableton or many others, Motion better than After Effects, Pixelmator better than anything from Adobe or Affinity.. Come on, my dude. Only thing I haven't mentioned is OS only because that's a religion and I don't fall into MacOS one. Apple's hardware game is strong. Software isn't, never has been.
- Nevermark 5mo agoApple’s software has a kind of reliable predictability that many appreciate. But “best” is far too strong a word. For starters, most if not all their software can be described as simpler also-rans. And in line with that approach, for a company that innovates in hardware, it does not apply that effort to software. With two exceptions in the last two decades. The iPhone and Apple Watch operating systems & interfaces were very creative efforts. Which genuinely matched the hardware innovation. Vision’s OS, on the hand, basically iOS-ified hardware that deserved to be treated like the first device to be positioned above and beyond the Mac. The natural interface doesn’t fall below the Mac’s, like a touch screen does. It fat exceeds it, given a keyboard-trackpad. Instead, software wise, we get another media and toy kiosk. I am stunned that Tim Cook didn’t see the opportunity to leave his mark with a device that took the capability crown further than the Mac, instead of falling for the 3D as cute feature un-vision. Pro hardware. Toy software. He has been a great CEO. But if he let Steve and his own legacy down anywhere, that is where. That, the predictable but mostly stalled vision of software apps. And all the odd software glitches on all their devices that seem to keep cropping up, that suggest poor underlying models to me. Their underlying systems software are a high point. The hardware integration is stand out.
- llbbdd 5mo agoThe huge strike-out they made with the Vision Pro still blows my mind. I'm in the camp of people who would have possibly shifted my entire working setup to that thing if they'd made just a few less dumb choices with it, and it might have been worth it even at the high price. I still occasionally waste my time checking out the latest to see if they've made any headway towards making it useful, because I'm still recovering from the shock that they haven't. The only way I can see the current state making any sense is if they just wanted to squeeze as much field usage data as possible from early adopters of an overpriced prototype, but that seems so far outside of how Apple normally positions its products that it's hard to believe.
- Nevermark 5mo ago> I'm in the camp of people who would have possibly shifted my entire working setup to that thing if they'd made just a few less dumb choices That describes me too. I even did for a while. But it just made the incomprehensible lack of any software ambition more painful. The software is the only reason the Vision isn't worth the price. A real Pro OS, paired with an Studio M5-Ultra, or with its own M5-Ultra, would be an amazing work environment. (The only hardware they would need to upgrade for the latter, i.e. its own Ultra, would be making live-battery swapping convenient. Which they should have already done.)
- sam0x17 5mo agoIt's really gone to shit in the last 2 years
- wetpaws 5mo ago[dead]
- locknitpicker 5mo ago> Apple’s software is the best in the non-free software world compared to Google's or Microsoft's, IMO. Apple does xcode, known for being perpetually broken and an ungodly mess of whatever design it had. Isn't it enough proof to completely reject your claim?