15 ms·

Outlawed by Amazon DRM

• capisce 14y ago
  That's very frightening, makes me reconsider buying more e-books from Amazon...
  • ghshephard 14y ago
    It's important to note that you don't actually buy e-books from Amazon, you license the right to read, and when that license is revoked/cancelled, those books are no longer available to you.
    • Nursie 14y ago
      I wonder if some large organisation (EU?) could force a change in this idea? It does seem like an end-run around so much in the way of consumer rights.
      • conradfr 14y ago
        I've been thinking for some time now that legislation is needed for the cloud and "online accounts". Being banned from Google, Amazon & others for sometimes very fuzzy reasons can be major inconvenient. Sure, it's not a human right or a life or death situation, but they occupy dominant space on their markets and on some people life.
      • abrahamsen 14y ago
        EU seems likely, the European Court of Justice recently ruled that customers have the right to resale on licensed Steam games. The reasoning was basically that a perpetual license equals ownership, and that normal ownership right cannot be limited by the license after the transaction. http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2012-07-03-eu-rules-publishers-cannot-stop-you-reselling-your-downloaded-games http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2012-07-03-eu-rules-publis...
    • jclos 14y ago
      Makes me wonder. What happens if you just don't connect your kindle to the net? I have a wifi only kindle which I never connect to the internet because I don't have a wifi connection anymore so I usually keep a local repository of my ebooks which I just drop on my kindle when I want to read them. Is the DRM contained in the azw and mobi files eventually going to stop me from opening them unless I connect to a wireless network?
      • ghshephard 14y ago
        I expect that some of the time constrained licenses (aka "Book Rentals") will expire even if you aren't connected to the network. The longer term books should be yours permanently, even if Amazon issues a "kill order" - unless you connect to the 'net.
    • capisce 14y ago
      I guess I never really considered that. Under what terms might that license be revoked/cancelled? It appears Amazon also lets you "rent" e-books for a certain amount of time. I suspect most people would assume that the high cost alternative to "renting" would be "buy to own". Especially considering the fact that the Kindle books typically cost the same (occasionally even a little bit more) than the physical books.
    • rmc 14y ago
      Well that depends. If a court decides that you own files you purchase online like this, then you own it.
• lancewiggs 14y ago
  I wonder whether this is related to Linn living in Norway, purchasing from Amazon.com and somehow Amazon.co.uk are getting in the middle, perhaps because they run Europe from there. It's the game that many people play - trying to find the best Amazon (or Apple) store when they live and travel between countries. This means a constant struggle to find a combination of credit card, store with enough content (The US is best) and a local address (virtual and actual) to satisfy arcane internal rules. Please Amazon - please move to one global store where any credit card from any country can purchase any edition of any book. Please Amazon and Apple, let us combine content from multiple stores into one account, and let us have a global price based on the best market. Yo usell more stuff, we but more as well. Meanwhile take the chance to collect, and pay to the local authorities, consumption/sales tax based on the location of the IP address, not the credit card or address of the buyer. That way if someone is standing in the UK, buying content from the USA, then they pay UK tax (VAT), making it fairer versus the physical and local virtual alternatives.
  • werid 14y ago
    Why would Amazon.co.uk run "europe"? The europeans outside UK, FR or DE are forced to buy the international kindle from the US.
    • lancewiggs 14y ago
      I assume for tax and logistics reasons. A search for "Amazon Europe" delivers an http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/gateway-eu http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/gateway-eu. I'm making assumptions after that.
      • werid 14y ago
        all international kindles are shipped from the US. ebooks must be bought from US too. the UK ebooks rights are ONLY for the UK, same with FR and DE. the US store handles american and international rights. other markets not quite big enough yet. if you're thinking about physical books, that's wrong too. a book sold in both the US and UK shop will usually have a different publisher, so which one you get depends on where you ordered it, not where you live.
• js951534 14y ago
  Pfft only more reason to use "free" websites for ebook downloads such as coinread.com
  • ljf 14y ago
    I just checked legalreads and it seems the site has now been closed.
    • js951534 14y ago
      try coinread.com then or any of the sites linked to on legalreads.com frontpage
      • ljf 14y ago
        Odd - I just get redirected to coinreads - no chance to view the legalreads page, which I then mistook for a domain squatters site. I see that it does infact work - though from the content it doesn't seem exactly 'legal'.
        • aw3c2 14y ago
          It absolutely is not legal.
          • js951534 14y ago
            Hey look on the bright side at least they wont brick your device and steal content you paid for (See topic)
  • andyjohnson0 14y ago
    Its a pity that legalreads doesn't provide a way for me to see what they offer without first giving them access to my google account.
    • js951534 14y ago
• jwr 14y ago
  I treat all E-books purchased with DRM as rentals. When making a decision whether to buy or not, I look at the price and consider whether I'm willing to pay this much to rent the book for an indeterminate amount of time, possibly as little as 3 months. Quite often it turns out that the price is too high. But I never delude myself that I actually "own" any of the DRM-restricted content that I paid for.
  • netcan 14y ago
    I treat all digital (-ly distributed) content as "rental." Most of the people I know do too... more or less. I treat all digital (-ly distributed) content as "rental." The reality is that "ownership" of digital property is different from ownership of physical property emotionally, legally and practically.
    • gizzlon 14y ago
      Even DRM-less? That makes no sense. I agree on the DRM content though.. The problem is that most people will probably not.
      • jiggy2011 14y ago
        You still don't necessarily own a DRM-free copy of something. DRM is simply a technical method of enforcing a legal license. Just because you can use a DRM free file in more ways (for example copy and share it) doesn't mean that the license grants you the rights to do so. One example I remember from the early 90s was "shareware" where you could send off for a free or low cost copy of a software program. These programs were sometimes just demo versions but often actually provided the entire program for free. However the license stated that you must either delete the program from your computer after some period (usually 30 days) or you must pay a "registration fee" to the developer. Of course without DRM they had no actual way of enforcing this so plenty of people kept shareware versions of programs long after the 30 days which lead to developers releasing only versions with limited functionality for free.
        • 14y ago
• pwg 14y ago
  This post really brings into focus just how right Richard Stallman was when he penned "The Right to Read": http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.html http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.html
  • wtrk 14y ago
    Indeed. But don't expect the sort of person whose battle cry w/re to RS is "But he's so unkempt!" to acknowledge that he tends to be correct.
    • jiggy2011 14y ago
      Do you think that if stallman cut his hair and put on a suit his message would be better received?
      • jdbernard 14y ago
        Yes. At the very least he would be less easily dismissed. I very much agree with his ideals, but his insistence on living completely outside the system diminishes his effectiveness in changing it.
      • kabdib 14y ago
        Yes, no question about it. (I used to think this didn't matter, either. Turns out that I'm far more pleasant to be around if I don't have a beard. So I haven't had one in 20 years). Welcome to the world of effective interpersonal interaction. We're primates, get used to it :-)
      • belorn 14y ago
        No. Well dressed and much more groomed people has warned about obvious threat in similar areas, and has also been equally ignored. Its the problem of the frog and the slowly heating pot. The changes a just slow enough that one can get used to the abuse. It will get worse. There is a ton of stuff companies could be doing to increase revenue by abusing their customers. When companies can view sold units as "theirs" to control, there is little limit. Car manufacturers really are the next area where I expect to see some heavy changes really soon. Insurance companies really want data, and the manufactures can easy supply it like how fast someone drives, and where they go. In Sweden, this already almost happen in the form of an "voluntary" app. Driving in privacy mode will soon include a heavty cost depending on which insurance company you buy from. On the monopolistic side, there is nothing really stopping car manufacturers to put DRM into the gas tank, so to only "approved" gas sellers (those that pay the car manufacture) that has the right to sell gas. DRM is already in place for parts, so its not that a big step.
• DiabloD3 14y ago
  This is why you should use a DRM removal tool and use a third party e-book reader on an Android tablet.
  • thedrbrian 14y ago
    What's wrong with a drm removal tool and iBooks?
    • thristian 14y ago
      Replacing Amazon as gatekeeper with Apple is something of a frying-pan-to-fire move. Amazon's device really only does e-books; most people depend on Apple devices for an awful lot more, and consequently losing access to your Apple device would be vastly more painful.
      • gurkendoktor 14y ago
        Where is Apple the gatekeeper? I couldn't care less about the iBookstore, but I love iBooks - I can drop any PDF or epub from the internet on iTunes and it'll be on my iPad after the next sync. If anything, Apple has the advantage that an iTunes library is dead-easy to back up. Android tablet, iPad, PlayBook- they'll all do the trick.
  • AlisdairO 14y ago
    I remove DRM from every ebook I buy. I don't redistribute, but I refuse to be put in a situation like the one linked.
    • deleted 14y ago
      [deleted]
  • buro9 14y ago
    Is there a DRM removal tool that works on Kindle books? I have a lot of unread Kindle books (I buy a lot at once), and would now like enough of a backup in a form that I could use such that I can be sure I could at least read the books.
• Nursie 14y ago
  It's almost as if they want to drive people to alernate ways of acquiring content... I still read a mix of kindle stuff and paper books, but the kindle is invaluable for travelling light. This is disappointing to hear about.
• AngryParsley 14y ago
  First, it's important to note that we don't have very much information yet. Given what I've read so far, I assume stupidity on the part of Amazon. Before everyone starts hating on Amazon specifically, remember that this same thing would happen with Apple, Xbox Live, or Barnes & Noble accounts. It's not that all these companies want to have DRM. It's the content owners who dictate the terms of licensing.
  • mercurial 14y ago
    Assuming the story as presented is accurate, it's perfectly legitimate to criticize Amazon's heavy-handedness, arrogance and opacity. AFAIK, the content owners don't mandate specific customer service policies.
  • rmc 14y ago
    I assume stupidity on the part of Amazon. Oh I'm almost certain that this is stupidity, and not malice. (Why would amazon shut down an account of some regular person?) However, the big problem is that "all the books you own" should be dependent on a massive company never acting stupid. The problem isn't stupidity/malice, the problem is that stupidity can have such a massive massive effect.
    • brazzy 14y ago
      Well, the same thing could happen with physical books and a moving company acting stupid - may even be more likely. The difference is that you can sue them for damages in that case
  • jdbernard 14y ago
    Even if Amazon is completely justified in the actions they took, their complete lack of transparency or accountability to the customer is worrying to me.
• conradfr 14y ago
  Is a Kindle usable without an Amazon account ?
  • savramescu 14y ago
    Very much so. Just use Calibre to load books and your fine.
    • glogla 14y ago
      I'm not sure how it works now, but older Kindles were just mass storage devices so you could put books there by hand.
      • josteink 14y ago
        You still can, but calibre lets you do format-conversion (since mobi is the only real format you can push to it while retaining readbility). It also allows you to tidy up meta-data and stuff to make things look better. It's definitely a "required" component as far as my Kindle is concerned.
    • pi18n 14y ago
      I used to have Calibre, but decided not to install it on my latest system, due to this bug and the cavalier reaction to it: https://bugs.launchpad.net/calibre/+bug/885027 https://bugs.launchpad.net/calibre/+bug/885027
  • Nursie 14y ago
    There are other ways to load books on to a kindle (Calibre, IIRC, is a piece of software that can do this). This allows you to load epubs and other files. I believe there are legal (non-pirate) ways to buy these, but I've really no idea how good the vendors are or how wide the catalogues are.
  • merijnv 14y ago
    I use my DX exclusively for reading scientific papers and stuff from Project Gutenberg, I just connect it over USB and copy PDFs/epubs/txt/html on there and everything works just fine. So yes, it works just fine without an Amazon account. Granted I bought mine without any expectation to buy ebooks, so I can imagine this being unsatisfying for people the expect to actually purchase DRM books...
• donapieppo 14y ago
  A sentence like "We wish you luck in locating a retailer better able to meet your needs and will not be able to offer any additional insight or action on these matters" is the best explanation of the evil of monopoly.
  • chris_wot 14y ago
    Monopolies tend to die. Sure, there might not be any competition from other companies, but their biggest competition is in the mass distributed and downloaded pirated book market. As an example, I only buy non-DRM PDFs, but I never distribute them. Ever. And I never will, because those who use non-DRM PDFs get my hard earned money as I will then get to enjoy and profit from their works on any device that I so desire to use. Now if, for example, I got a DRM encoded book and it was taken away from me due to some ridiculous arbitrary decision, I would be sorely tempted to get a non-DRM encoded copy of the book that I purchased. I think, in fact I know, I would be justified. But given that I don't buy DRM encoded books, this will never be an ethical dilemna for me. And I'm no dirty hippy :-)
    • deleted 14y ago
      [deleted]
• shismijuh 14y ago
  I own 2 kindles. Got one more for Mum also. I need to get my books out ASAP. Somehow, feel very cheated. Nobody can walk into your house and take away your paperbook. This is theft! And then the arrogance of no explanations.
  • hobbes 14y ago
    You did read the Terms and Conditions before you "bought" the books, didn't you? If you bought the books, you agreed [in the eyes of the law] to this kind of eventuality.. I'm as guilty of this kind of thing as well. We tend to assume an imaginary T&C that conforms to we think is fair when we buy things online - and we have to learn the hard way that the real T&C's are very much more dubious. Here's the relevant bit in the T&C's: "Upon your download of Digital Content and payment of any applicable fees (including applicable taxes), the Content Provider grants you a non-exclusive right to view, use, and display such Digital Content an unlimited number of times" "Your rights under this Agreement will automatically terminate if you fail to comply with any term of this Agreement." The key points is that this is a "license agreement" that grants you rights on the payment of applicable fees. TL;DR: You don't own any content you licensed to read on your kindle.
    • rmc 14y ago
      Laws trump contracts. You cannot sign away what the law says happened. It's just a matter of convincing a judge that you bought the book. They Amazon's T&Cs are irrelevant.
      • hobbes 14y ago
        And, how, pray tell, will you convince the judge of that? You didn't purchase a book, as the T&C's make clear - the contents of which you agreed to by entering into the said agreement. You paid applicable fees to enter into an agreement to view digital content. Nothing more. There was no purchase of a book. Where's your evidence to the contrary?
        • losvedir 14y ago
• nowarninglabel 14y ago
  I've had some friends caution me over the fact that I have a "license to read" my Amazon purchased books as opposed to "own" them, however that really never hit home until now. I understand this is the way the business model works, but the customer service presented here is terrible, no indication whatsoever as to what the real problem is and no way to find out, which is sad because usually Amazon has pretty good customer service (well in my experience, I've been using Amazon for about a decade now, and customer service sucked until around 2004 or so I think when it seemed to get better).
  • gknoy 14y ago
    The worst part is, that when combating people who really are trying to behave fraudulently, giving them information about what specifically triggered the ban can help them evade future ones -- much like how forum bans don't give a reason why. It must be hard for Amazon (or anyone else) to separate the wheat from the chaff of customers. Not that this makes the events in this story any less terrible.
• asgeirn 14y ago
  The worst part is the blatant arrogance of Mr. Michael Murphy, who does not at all consider the possibility of it all being a misunderstanding or some error on Amazon's behalf, and giving the customer no option to rectify the issue. These are two options for who Michael Murphy is: http://www.linkedin.com/pub/michael-murphy/17/b72/231 http://www.linkedin.com/pub/michael-murphy/17/b72/231 http://www.linkedin.com/pub/michael-murphy/0/b84/9b5 http://www.linkedin.com/pub/michael-murphy/0/b84/9b5
  • mercurial 14y ago
    I don't think posting his personal details on the Internet is a very good idea.
    • Drakim 14y ago
      Michael Murphy posted his personal details on the Internet. asgeirn posted links.
      • mercurial 14y ago
        Fair point. However, it doesn't bring anything to the discussion, other than giving the temptation to 4chan fans to start a harassment campaign, so what the hell is it doing here?
        • sudhirj 14y ago
          I think 4chan is perfectly capable of going to Google, typing in "michael murphy linkedin amazon" and harassing the first two results on the page without HN tempting them.
    • hef19898 14y ago
      Funny, since it is a link to linkedin... :-)
  • vilya 14y ago
    "Michael Murphy" may actually be a fictional identity though. Companies sometimes do that to give people the feeling of dealing with a real person while in reality it's just whoever is free in the department that deals with it. Certainly if my job was to tell people that we weren't giving them their account of any of their purchases back, I wouldn't want them to have any of my personal details.
• mysterywhiteboy 14y ago
  The lack of transparency from Amazon here is worrying. Because it appears to be Amazon UK dealing with the account holder I'd be interested to know if she would get anywhere by submitting a Subject Information Request [1]. Under the Data Protection Act 1998 an individual can submit a request for personal information held by an organization and they must comply within 40 days. Whether she would get the information she is interested in, i.e. which account she is linked to, is another question. [1] http://www.ico.gov.uk/for_the_public/personal_information/how_manage/access_info.aspx http://www.ico.gov.uk/for_the_public/personal_information/ho...
  • rmc 14y ago
    Yes I was also thinking of the Data Protection Acts here aswell. Whether she would get the information she is interested in, i.e. which account she is linked to, is another question. Well if they don't provide it, they are breaking the law, so you can complain about them again that way.
    • mysterywhiteboy 14y ago
      Unfortunately there are a number of circumstances where they are within their rights to withhold information. One of these situations is where the information relates to another individual. If information is withheld she my be able to infer that the offending account to which she is linked is held by someone else - though the identity of the account holder would understandably not be given.
      • mercurial 14y ago
        This logic doesn't hold. Either Amazon is certain her account is operated by the same character guilty of whatever violations of policy behind the "linked account", in which case they're not disclosing any additional information, or they're not, in which case they know they might be punishing somebody innocent (the "Let God sort'em out" customer policy). In any case, it sounds straight out of Kafka: you're punished, but you don't know what crime you are supposed to have committed.
• scotty79 14y ago
  I have a Kindle but I don't want to have to do with Amazon. What is the best open firmware so far I can flash into it? I'd like to retain ability to send documents from my computer to my Kindle over the internet.
  • shrikant 14y ago
    I have a Kindle (wi-fi, w/ keyboard so 3rd gen, I think) for a little over two years, read tons on it, use the wireless delivery for Instapaper and such-like and have never bought an e-book from Amazon. Managing side-loaded content is quite simple with Calibre, but if you don't want to muck around too much with software, you can also just drag and drop books onto the Kindle as a mass storage device (but you would have to take care that they're in 'acceptable' formats..) What else are you trying to do that would require custom firmware?
    • scotty79 14y ago
      My usage of kindle is similar to yours. I just don't like the possibility of being locked out of the own device. I also like how the publicly developed software improves over time. I haven't seen any improvements for my Kindle (most likely same model as yours, but gsm) from Amazon.
      • shrikant 14y ago
        Can they lock you out of physical usage of the Kindle, like a remote kill-switch of sorts? Scary, if true.. Fair point on the software improvement though -- you might want to look into Duokan, it seems to be really popular and adds native ePub support: http://www.mobileread.com/forums/showthread.php?t=150175 http://www.mobileread.com/forums/showthread.php?t=150175 (bonus if you like some aspects of the original OS: there's a tool that let's you switch between the two firmwares.)
        • JeremyBanks 14y ago
          Can they lock you out of physical usage of the Kindle, like a remote kill-switch of sorts? Scary, if true.. I don't think they can lock you out of the device. The only thing I've ever heard of them doing (and what they did in this case) is remote deletion of books you've purchased from them.
• jnazario 14y ago
  an increased number of stories like this will make the book pirating underground a lot more attractive to a wider audience. it exists, it's not quite napster-like yet but it's getting there. no DRM, a potentially wider catalog, etc. this is a risk for publishers and loss-leaders (like amazon) alike.
  • jakubp 14y ago
    There's something to what you sad. Isn't it ironic to see a situation that so closely mirrors piracy? - with DRMed books, Amazon says "yes, you >>have<< these ebooks, you paid for them [wink]", but Amazon actually can take them away from you and you can do nothing about it. You paid [for ebook copies] and are left with nothing - in piracy, a person who gets pirated copies of a book says "yes, if I want to read your books, dear authors/publishers, I'll pay for them [wink]", but that person can actually get any number of books from you for free. You paid [for publishing/marketing] and are left with nothing
    • chris_wot 14y ago
      The irony is, all that you have to do is get your entire book list, then hunt down the books you already paid for and then you can get them DRM free. Then you never pay Amazon another cent. After all, they didn't want your money! If they have refused to let you buy content that you require, then I can see why some people feel a moral justification to pirate the books. It's really quite simple. If this happened in the U.S. then they could take court action against Amazon. If you are from overseas, you really have no recourse. Therefore, merely because of where you live, you are restricted from material that may enrich your life. That's discrimination, and I can well understand that someone might feel justified in breaking the law to download pirated books. Amazon... hurting themselves as only a greedy corporation can.
  • Heliosmaster 14y ago
    you mean something like http://tuebl.com http://tuebl.com ?
  • rmc 14y ago
    Piracy for books is quite interesting. There is already a lot of infastructure for sharing files (torrent sites et al.), but the new thing is how small books are. 1,000 books could be about the size of one standard def film (~ 1 GB). A lot of people are going to have a lot of books.
• jiggy2011 14y ago
  Surely this is what a small claims court could be used for? I haven't read the Amazon TOS but is it really as simple as "you rent this book for as long as we feel like and we can revoke it for no reason"? In which case I would be somewhat surprised if this really held up in a court, for example what happens if you buy a book and they immediately decide to revoke the license 1 second after purchase?
  • pja 14y ago
    Surely this is what a small claims court could be used for? In principle, possibly. It's a bit difficult to sue if you live in Norway & have been buying from Amazon US though: your costs will exceed any potential return very quickly! (I'm assuming that filing a small claims suit remotely is either not possible or not effective here of course.)
    • jiggy2011 14y ago
      That presents a bit of a problem. As digital stuff is being increasingly sold across geopolitical lines you get a situation where you have little practical recourse if you have an issue with anything you have bought.
    • SEMW 14y ago
      Nah, you just sue in Norway. Might be expensive for Amazon to defend, but that's their problem. More specifically: Norway is part of the Brussels regime for determining jurisdiction to sue ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brussels_Regime http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brussels_Regime ). So this applies: A consumer may bring proceedings against the other party to a contract either in the courts of the Contracting State in which that party is domiciled or in the courts of the Contracting State in which he is himself domiciled. And no, companies can't escape it by putting a jurisdiction clause in a consumer contract. Consumer protection law trump contract terms. If Amazon want to do business in a country, they have to abide by the consumer laws of that country. (I am not a lawyer).
• clumsysmurf 14y ago
  I was recently interested in purchasing eBooks from Morgan Kaufmann. "The UX Book: Process and Guidelines for Ensuring a Quality User Experience" costs $89.95 USD; surely for that insane price your eBook would be DRM-free, right? Wrong. Both ePub and PDF use Adobe Adept (Inept) DRM. You can try to find the Kindle/iBook version, but as this article points out "its a license to read" ... and very often, the quality of the digital conversion is very poor, especially for literature with illustrations. DRM-free PDF is the only way for me.
  • Antiks72 14y ago
    Ink and paper is the only way for me.
• chillax 14y ago
  Seems the blog is getting hit hard now. Here is the Google Cache: http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache%3Awww.bekkelund.net%2F2012%2F10%2F22%2Foutlawed-by-amazon-drm%2F&oq=cache%3Awww.bekkelund.net%2F2012%2F10%2F22%2Foutlawed-by-amazon-drm%2F&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8 http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache%3Awww.b...
• chanux 14y ago
  This sounds disturbing to me since I too live far away from Amazon's jurisdiction and I clearly know I would be even more helpless in a case like this. Amazon's service was so sweet I didn't mind the DRM, the metaphorical diabetes. It seems now is the time to open my eyes and (again) realize 'RMS is always right'. I think I will stop buying any amazon e-book at least until I hear something good regarding this issue.
• techsupporter 14y ago
  Tangentially related, I am getting very, very tired of "customer service" departments using phrases like: "While we are unable to provide detailed information on how we link related accounts, please know that we have reviewed your account on the basis of the information provided and regret to inform you that it will not be reopened." This happens more frequently: Google says this all the time, based on posts here; Amazon now does the same thing; even apartment rental companies will say "you've been turned down on the basis of this report that we don't know the contents of." If your company can't reveal specific reasons or steps behind why an action was taken, DON'T TAKE THAT ACTION. Even my credit card issuer will tell me exactly why my card was flagged and they deal with ACTUAL MONEY. All these statements do is infuriate customers, create bad press, and drive away other customers. Scammers will just back up, look at their entire operation, and hammer away again with 300 new accounts so all you've accomplished is pissing off customers who want to do business with you.
  • jaachan 14y ago
    "While we are unable to provide detailed information on how we link related accounts" I don't think it means they don't know, I think it means they can't[1] "detail", i.e. tell you. [1] Won't, of course.
    • techsupporter 14y ago
      That's exactly my point: They don't want to tell you. If a company has such rigid internal processes that it can't come up with a way to reveal at least some information to allow a paying[0] customer to successfully defend an allegation of fraud, then that process is broken. 0 - I leave as an exercise to the reader the question of what should be done for free services.
  • oliwarner 14y ago
    Companies have privacy obligations. If they inaccurately link you to a fraudulent user and then tell you all the activity of that fraudulent user, they've probably just broken the law. That's a specific example where it might not be legal but I agree that this is widespread and there are lots of things in the real world where it would be fine to tell you, but they choose not to. In my experience this is to protect internal process (so you can't cite why they're idiots) or so that they can sell you another product (credit score improvement, etc). But I do agree, the withholding of detail is widespread to a point where it suggests people just plain don't want to tell you anything.
• jiggy2011 14y ago
  So even if we assume that Amazon was correct and that this account was closed because it was linked to another account that was closed because of 'abuse'. I don't understand how that would justify or require revoking access to stuff that was already bought/licensed? You could simply deny the offending user access to buying new stuff instead.
  • powertower 14y ago
    The "abuse" was probably related to stripping DRM off the titles, and uploading them for anyone to download free-of-charge. Then that would make sense.
• andyjohnson0 14y ago
  Its getting to the point where I am seriously considering closing my Amazon account. I just don't like the way it does business any more. Can anyone recommend a good online bookseller in the UK? Is Waterstones any good? The Guardian is running a story [1] today about how Amazon forces publishers to cover the cost of 20% VAT (sales tax) on ebook sales, even though it only pays 3% to the Luxembourg government (where it is based for tax purposes). It also insists that if a publisher offers a better price to another retailer then it must offer the same price to Amazon. They also pay no corporation tax in the UK, despite sales of more than £3.3bn/yr [2], through being based in Luxembourg. I was going to jump ship to The Book Depository, but Amazon bought them last year. Its hard to understand why this was allowed by the competition regulator, and it doesn't give me much confidence that the UK government has much interest in limiting their control of multiple markets. [1] http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2012/oct/21/amazon-forces-publishers-pay-vat-ebook http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2012/oct/21/amazon-forc... [2] http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2012/apr/04/amazon-british-operation-corporation-tax http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2012/apr/04/amazon-brit...
  • phireal 14y ago
    Waterstones used to use Amazon to sell books (presumably they couldn't make any money any other way). Not sure if they still do. http://www.abebooks.co.uk/ http://www.abebooks.co.uk/ is pretty good, particularly for difficult to find and second hand books. I've found more and more recently that play.com does almost as well as (and often better than) Amazon in terms of price, although I don't know much about their business tactics.
    • aapl 14y ago
      AbeBooks is actually owned by Amazon now.
      • phireal 14y ago
        Seriously? Wow. Amazon really are dominating that particular market.
• Tooluka 14y ago
  Never ever buy e-books from Amazon, only physical books and things. Especially because all e-stuff on your Amazon account can be permanently deleted without any option to restore (except to buy it again).
• rmc 14y ago
  Should have pirated. You get a better product.
• MattBearman 14y ago
  I know it's not the best attitude, but if this ever happened to me I would simply pirate all the books I'd purchased from amazon, side load them onto my kindle and keep reading guilt free. A part of me would like to dump amazon due to stories like this, but at the end of the day the whole set up is just too convenient (I can find, 'buy', and start reading a book in less than a minute directly from my kindle) The worst part is that attitudes like mine are probably a big part of the reason Amazon will continue to get away with this. The even worse part is that I just don't care enough to do anything about it. I wonder how many others there are like me who should know better, but enjoy the convenience too much?
  • imgabe 14y ago
    I'm in the same boat. My plan is to continue using Amazon, but remove the DRM from everything I buy and keep a backup copy.
  • MrMember 14y ago
    We all make concessions for something (unless you're rms). I refuse to buy DRM laden ebooks, yet I've spent thousands of dollars on Steam games. I don't mind the inconveniences of using paper books but when it comes to PC games Steam is just to convenient for me to ignore. I know I could lose access to hundreds of games suddenly and without warning, yet I continue to give Valve my business.
• davidw 14y ago
  I wonder how much this is going to cost them in lost sales. If everything is as stated - I have no reason to doubt it - it's very disappointing.
• dendory 14y ago
  I'm a comic book fan, and a while back I started buying comics digitally from Dark Horse's digital store. Being also a HN reader, I'm very aware of what these companies can do, how accounts are closed without notice, wiping all your previous purchases, etc. So obviously as my spending went up in that one digital store, I became concerned of what could happen, especially reading their FAQ that clearly state all my money gave me nothing other than a right to access their online system. So I did like any good geek and I poked around, used a few web developer tools, and found a way to save those comics to PDF, for backup purposes. Now, whenever I buy a new title, the first thing I do is save it as PDF, before even reading it. So now I'm no longer worried about what this company might do, and I encourage everyone who buys goods digitally to do the same. Of course it sucks that we have to do this, but right now that's the only option. Don't let yourself at the mercy of faceless corporations.
  • davidw 14y ago
    I wonder how difficult it'd be to create an end-user app... User plugs Kindle into the computer, user runs app, app backs up user's books, free from DRM. I guess people could use it to pirate as well, but c'est la vie.
    • pja 14y ago
      It's been done.
    • rada 14y ago
      You can download all your Kindle books and store them in a caliber library on your computer: http://calibre-ebook.com/ http://calibre-ebook.com/.
  • DanBC 14y ago
    Bypassing a technical copyright protection mechanism is a criminal offence, isn't it? I agree that it's the sane thing to do. "Back up your documents" is important advice.
    • tomp 14y ago
• oliwarner 14y ago
  User pays money for something. Company withdraws products without notice and deliberately harms the user's device. Yes this is awful but the solution is as simple as it's always been: 1. Complain. Keep complaining all the way to the top. 2. Sue. If complaining doesn't get you want you've paid for (or your money back, inc the Kindle you now can't use), you've just been robbed and you need to take legal action. You might think you're under a billion and five EULAs but when challenged, courts seem to side with the user when the EULAs attempt to restrict rights that they're not allowed to impinge upon. There are various sales laws that are protected well beyond the words of an EULA. If you don't do anything about it, you make it worse for everybody else because <<insert horrid company here>> thinks they can get away with it now.
  • jonno 14y ago
    Yep. counter thump your way to the top, then hit whatever small claims will have you. I can't imagine any court will side with a retailer deleting purchases without adequate excuse. Also, actually writing letters is a great idea, I find it gets much more attention than filling a web form or firing off a hasty email. When you lick that stamp you're showing a company you're willing to put some effort in.
  • run4yourlives 14y ago
    Um: 3. Stop using the service the company provides.
• twz 14y ago
  WTF that guy writing that email ... should be hanged on his balls is there no moral anymore?? you wouldn't act that way face 2 face now would u? fucking companys acting like friggin internet thugs hiding behind their corporate not identities ima just soo fed up w/ u suckers rant on and on and on ....
• chris_wot 14y ago
  Interesting link to an Amazon.com Kindle Help discussion by the blog author: http://www.amazon.com/gp/help/customer/forums/kindleqna/ref=kindle_help_forum_tft_tp?ie=UTF8&cdForum=Fx1GLDPZMNR1X53&cdThread=Tx2VVCMMPS41HGW http://www.amazon.com/gp/help/customer/forums/kindleqna/ref=...
  • alan_cx 14y ago
    Blimey, Amazon also has "fanboys". I suppose its logical.
    • chris_wot 14y ago
      Fanboys and logical are not two words that you often see together in an argument.
• qw 14y ago
  Looks like the database is down. Here's the cached version: http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?hl=en&output=search&sclient=psy-ab&q=cache%3Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.bekkelund.net%2F2012%2F10%2F22%2Foutlawed-by-amazon-drm%2F&oq=cache%3Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.bekkelund.net%2F2012%2F10%2F22%2Foutlawed-by-amazon-drm%2F http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?hl=en&outpu...
• jordanthoms 14y ago
  If she has made any recent purchases, doing a chargeback would be an option.
• cs702 14y ago
  Could you ever imagine a local retailer in your area breaking and entering into your home, taking away all your books, and then not giving you a straightforward explanation as to why they did so? Me neither. Breaking and entering into someone else's physical property, and talking away their physical possessions without explanation is so obviously wrong and illegal! Yet that's pretty much what Amazon did to this poor woman, except in the digital realm: Amazon 'broke and entered' into her Kindle, took away all her books, and then did not give her a straightforward explanation as to why they did so. More alarmingly, Amazon did this with impunity, because this woman never really owned "her" books or, for that matter, anything else she "purchased" on "her" Kindle. In the digital realm, what Amazon did to this woman is perfectly legal. Legal or not, this looks, smells, and feels so obviously wrong, it ought to be illegal.
  • pi18n 14y ago
    It absolutely should be illegal to delete files from a device that is currently rented or owned by another party unless they give explicit permission. It should be wire fraud, just like hacking a server and forcing it to act in a way the owner does not desire.
    • mdasen 14y ago
      The problem is that Kindle users probably did give explicit permission (for some definition of explicit permission). I'm sure there's a clause in the ToS that allows Amazon to delete content that you've purchased. I'm not the type to sound the drum saying that piracy isn't theft, but here it seems like it's trying to go both ways. It's property if you "steal" it and it isn't property if you've bought it. Part of the problem is that the law hasn't kept up with the digital age. Lawyers/judges are notably technophobes (as a whole) which I'm sure has kept it back. Plus, generally speaking, technology enjoys a nice balance of good companies, competition, and plenty of release valves (ie, piracy). In general, these events are rare and that keeps the world from addressing the underlying issues - it just rarely comes up as an issue for someone and when it does, they could find a way (like piracy) to make themselves whole again (and I know it isn't equivalent, but piracy is often a lower barrier than legal action). There are a lot of other issues where people are more likely to become un-whole with less easy recourse. Right now, issues of what a license to digital content offers is a bit in flux. I think a lot of us have a similar idea to what we think it should mean, but that doesn't mean that the legal system does or will acknowledge that. We sometimes get complacent because we're in a pretty positive industry and often times regulation can stifle innovation. However, this might be an area where we want a standard definition of term rental (for things like the Zune music service) and license purchase (like a Kindle Book) that would allow for things like re-selling and such. Otherwise, we'll likely continue to be beholden to the ToS that we all just click "accept" on.
• rawoke 14y ago
  This sucks big time !! I'd be so pissed if this was me ! I've mailed amazon to hear if this is the norm. I don't really expect a response, but hopefully a few 1000's emails like that will at least let them give the situation more attention ?
• FiloSottile 14y ago
  I hate when retailers make piracy tools necessary even if you paid. Head to the Apprentice Alf's Blog.
• robk 14y ago
  She should clearly pursue this in small claims court in the UK. She should be able to do this with a foreign address even. Easy and effective. https://www.gov.uk/make-money-claim-online https://www.gov.uk/make-money-claim-online
• Arjuna 14y ago
  I am curious: could a story like this happen in the United States? According to my reading of the legal case (I am not a lawyer, but it would be interesting if any of you are could comment - grellas, perhaps) regarding Amazon's remote deletion of Nineteen Eighty-Four and Animal Farm, the settlement involving that case appears to protect what happened in this story from happening to users in the United States. Of course, it goes without saying that I do not agree with how things went down in this story, where a person has absolutely no recourse with Amazon, with the proverbial door completely shut in their face. However, I find it interesting that, again, according to my interpretation of the aforementioned settlement, it appears that Kindle units that are purchased and used in the United States are afforded special protections by law from what specifically happened in the story (i.e., the settlement outlines very specific cases where remote deletion can occur, but they do not appear to apply with regard to what happened in the story). Is my reading of this correct? If so, why aren't all Kindle owners afforded this protection? Here is the citation from the settlement [1]: "For copies of Works purchased pursuant to TOS granting "the non-exclusive right to keep a permanent copy" of each purchased Work and to "view, use and display [such Works] an unlimited number of times, solely on the [Devices] . . . and solely for [the purchasers'] personal, non-commercial use," Amazon will not remotely delete or modify such Works from Devices purchased and being used in the United States unless (a) the user consents to such deletion or modification; (b) the user requests a refund for the Work or otherwise fails to pay for the Work (e.g., if a credit or debit card issuer declines to remit payment); (c) a judicial or regulatory order requires such deletion or modification; or (d) deletion or modification is reasonably necessary to protect the consumer or the operation of a Device or network through which the Device communicates (e.g., to remove harmful code embedded within a copy of a Work downloaded to a Device). This paragraph does not apply to (a) applications (whether developed or offered by Amazon or by third parties), software or other code; (b) transient content such as blogs; or (c) content that the publisher intends to be updated and replaced with newer content as newer content becomes available. With respect to newspaper and magazine subscriptions, nothing in this paragraph prohibits the current operational practice pursuant to which older issues are automatically deleted from the Device to make room for newer issues, absent affirmative action by the Device user to save older issues." [1] http://assets.bizjournals.com/cms_media/pdf/KindleCase1.pdf?site=techflash.com http://assets.bizjournals.com/cms_media/pdf/KindleCase1.pdf?...
• amalag 14y ago
  Another reason to buy a Kobo instead of a kindle.
• rdl 14y ago
  I have hundreds of Kindle books, preferentially buy Kindle books, and also have 150+ Audible audiobooks (also owned by Amazon). I've always been afraid of what might happen to vendor-controlled content (either cloud servers or DRM), so I maintain a local de-DRM'd version of every file. For Audible, I actually had to go through a download, aac playback in iTunes to mp3 compression, mp3 file split workflow to make Audible books work with the RNS-E audio in my audi (it has built-in SD slots to play MP3, but the iPod in interface won't work with Audible due to DRM restrictions in their app). It's a shame that you have to go through all this trouble just to use things you've legally purchased. It's sort of ok when the system just works (like Steam does now, although it didn't always), but horrible when you don't trust the vendor much and where the software doesn't work very well (EA Origin...). I don't think I'd buy anything where there wasn't at least a technical workaround to rip to servers and formats under my control.
  • WA 14y ago
    I bought an audiobook via Amazon which was DRM-free. The next audiobook was only available through Audible. So I signed up to give it a try and I have to say that this was the worst buying experience ever. It starts with the password policy. Passwords require a maximum length(!), which is not only stupid but also a strong indicator that they store the passwords in plaintext (like varchar(16)). I asked them whether they'd do that and they denied, but I don't believe them. And, well, the whole DRM-nonsense and stupid file formats that don't play on my Android phone without their app. I won't buy via Audible again.
• jonno 14y ago
  I've been on the fence about Kindles for me and the kids. Think this has tipped the balance. I had heard rumors about how draconian Amazon was being, seems it was true.
• deleted 14y ago
  [deleted]
• SEMW 14y ago
  > How will she ever find the means to get her books back? By suing a large corporation half-way round the earth? IANAL. But for anyone in a similar situation, consumer protection law is usually better than you think. Don't assume you can't sue, or have to sue in another country, just because the contract says you do. Consumer protection laws can trump contracts! In particular, for anyone in EU or EFTA at least (i.e. part of the Brussels regime for determining jurisdiction to sue, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brussels_Regime http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brussels_Regime ), who is acting as a consumer, you can sue in your own country: "A consumer may bring proceedings against the other party to a contract either in the courts... in which that party is domiciled or in the courts... in which he is himself domiciled." If Amazon want to do business in a country, they have to abide by the consumer laws of that country. I am not a lawyer. Get yourself a lawyer and know your rights!
• kabdib 14y ago
  I have a physical library of about 5K books. Should he want to, my son will be able to read those books. The DRM'd books are a different story. I still want my son to be able to read them, but I have no assurance that the ebooks will be available to him fifteen years from now. So I yank the DRM from all of my Amazon purchases. These I put on backups. I do not share them. I would like to see legislation about the ownership of digital content, requiring that purchased content be accessible /at all times/ -- held in escrow, if necessary. Clearly defining a purchase is probably part of this.
  • lukeschlather 14y ago
    Is there support for this kind of legislation? It seems like a common sense antecedent to the DMCA - if I'm legally prohibited from circumventing DRM, companies should be legally required to provide a means to shift that content to other media - failure to do this on request should void the DMCA's protections against unauthorized copying.
    • gknoy 14y ago
      I'm sure that any user you asked about it would love that, but support for legislation requires lobbying, and no group of users can match the dollars thrown at congress by media interests who have no such desires.
  • imgabe 14y ago
    I believe that removing copy protection from DVDs for the purposes of making backup copies was found to not be in violation of copyright laws, I don't see why the same shouldn't apply to ebooks.
• tux1968 14y ago
  We simply must stop signing all power over to corporations in exchange for use of their toys. Until people start voting with their wallet, these types of things will only become more common.
• sami36 14y ago
  Am I the only one thinking there is more to this story than what has been leaked so far ? I don't usually step up to the defense of corporate America but in my dealings with Amazon, I haven't encountered anything but stellar customer service. I hope Amazon releases more about the specifics that led them to take such a draconian action. This is either a terrible mistake that'll come with profuse apology & additional scrutiny at their (maybe trigger happy) fraud processes....or a last ditch action to deal with a serious violation. Either way, this will need to be explained, for now conclusions are being drawn on the basis of nothing but speculation.
• einarfd 14y ago
  It seems that the Norwegian consumer protection agency have heard about this case and have started looking into it (link in Norwegian http://www.itavisen.no/904648/forbrukerraadet-helt-haarreisende http://www.itavisen.no/904648/forbrukerraadet-helt-haarreise... ). It's going to be interesting to see if they are able to get any traction on this. They actually might since her contact in Amazon seemed to be working for Amazon.co.uk, and Norway is part of the EU's inner market.
• snitko 14y ago
  I can absolutely agree that the story is very disturbing, however I also believe that it is an Amazon's right as a private company to do whatever the hell it wants with products an services it provides. The problem is not that it can or cannot legally wipe out the contents of its devices, the problem is that there's not enough competition yet. If Amazon was in a very harsh competition with any another company for ebook market (which I believe it currently isn't) a story like this would undoubtedly drive a substantial amount of customers to competitors. What Amazon currently does, it enjoys a temporary situation in which it is a market leader. Since ebooks is not exactly a very regulated industry, I don't think it's too long before we actually have a serious competition.
  • cloverich 14y ago
    > Since ebooks is not exactly a very regulated industry... Definitely is a highly regulated (gov't, media co.'s) industry. Without knowing anything else about it - how hard is it to create a web application to serve e-book content? Not very. Yet how many good ones exist? One? Two? That alone should tell you there's a ton of baggage that goes with the market.
• pixelcort 14y ago
  The worst part about this isn't so much the remote wipe of the device, but the eternal banning of the customer without recourse. It doesn't matter if it's 30 or 50 years from now; this person has been told that for the rest of their life, until they die, that they are never again able to become a customer. Sounds like a long time to be banned without being told why.
• chanux 14y ago
  I e-mailed amazon using a feedback form[1]. following is what I wrote. I appreciate if other kindle owners can do the same to help Linn and for the greater good. Dear Amazon, Your service was really nice to me so far. But I happened to read a news that was not comforting. Following is a link to the story. http://www.bekkelund.net/2012/10/22/outlawed-by-amazon-drm/ http://www.bekkelund.net/2012/10/22/outlawed-by-amazon-drm/ This makes me hesitant about making any future purchases. I understand your right to act against any abuse but I also believe that users have a right know what was really going on, especially when they are being totally banished. This email is to direct your attention towards the problem so you can have another chance of finishing things in a nicer way. I strongly believe DRM sucks but I also believe there are valid reasons for it to be there. The problem is not black or white. I'd like to see a solution that is acceptable for both parties (Amazon and the customer). Thank you [1] https://www.amazon.com/gp/help/contact-us/kindle-help.html/ref=kindle_help_forum_cu https://www.amazon.com/gp/help/contact-us/kindle-help.html/r...
  • yajoe 14y ago
    One data point: I work on the Kindle and have a pretty good understanding of how the device works. I'm not aware of how to wipe the device remotely. It's possible to revoke licenses for DRM content, but I have no idea how to remove all books. I can't explain how to reproduce what the blog describes happened. If this person did in fact purchase DRM content and Amazon revoked it, then at a minimum the person should get a refund. There are ways that happens automatically (because it's the right thing for the customer -- Amazon doesn't want to take sides in the bigger debate). Since I don't see the refund mentioned I think there is more going on than "your account is connected to a flagged account." Edit: SeanDav@ Deleting Amazon Account != wiping content from the device. They're different. It sounds like the person's account was deleted, but it shouldn't impact what's on the device save the revoked DRM licenses. Edit 2: randartie@ I'm not blaming the victim, but refunds happen automatically if the customer originally paid for the content. There's a whole bunch of safeguards we have in place to protect customers and their content; this kind of sensational FUD continues to annoy me.
    • SeanDav 14y ago
• isharabash 14y ago
  We're only hearing one side, has anyone else questioned how true this story is?
  • lwat 14y ago
    We're only hearing one side because Amazon refuses to say anything.
• adrianscott 14y ago
  Am I the only one who will take Amazon's action and level of customer service into consideration when deciding on a cloud hosting provider, Amazon Web Services vs. others? Accounts are accounts on Amazon and will they link a consumer account you or your developers use with an account you use for hosting business web sites on EC2? Or, reading the blog entry, will they mistakenly link another account with your other Amazon accounts, including the one you use for EC2?...
• bencevans 14y ago
  If they do that with books, this could happen with AWS?! Dear Sir/Madam, We've deleted your EC2, S3... Services and Permanently suspended your AWS account due to it's been linked to another account somewhere on the internet. In other words your companies services/product/startup is offline without notice and we don't care.
  • dpark 14y ago
    Almost certainly. I would be quite shocked if Amazon didn't have the "we can turn you off at any time" clause written into their AWS ToS.
• njharman 14y ago
  > get her books back? They aren't her books, they aren't even books in the physical sense. They are the copyright owner's "books". All she had (and paid for) were licenses to display (in limited fashion) "books". Linn might not like this, she should fight (infinite, broad) copyright which is the root of all this evil, not Amazon.
• cagenut 14y ago
  This is even more scary for people/startups with their entire business on ec2.
• run4yourlives 14y ago
  I'm not saying this to be rude, so I apologize in advance if you personally take offence: In my mind, you're a complete idiot if you are an e-book consumer at this point in time. You essentially rent the book for a price often higher than owning a physical copy of the exact same material. All this for the slight mobility advantage, and instant purchase ability. You can't share your ebooks with friends. You run the risk that the publisher might decide you're no longer worthy of that purchase. I question the sanity of any person that has done a pro/con comparison and actually judged e-books to be superior. My guess is that most people don't bother to actually think about these purchases. e-books can and should be revolutionary, but what is on offer now is essentially nothing more than window dressing - and people are eating it up.
  • Lukeas14 14y ago
    Your reasons are very subjective and calling someone an idiot is always offensive whether you apologize in advance or not. Anyways, I like e-books because, for me, the mobility advantage is huge and I'm less concerned about lending them to friends. The only reason I buy them from Amazon, as opposed to torrenting, is to support the author. I wish I could do that without Amazon but they do provide a useful service allowing me to buy and sync books from any device. And once I remove the DRM I would certainly say that ebooks are superior to physical books for me.
    • run4yourlives 14y ago
      First, you don't buy e-books, you rent them. The book doesn't really belong to you at all, as this article points out. Second, you not only pay more to support your behaviour, you break the law for it as well. (Note: I'm not a supporter of this law, but it is nonetheless true.) I'm sorry but I cannot see how the average person sees this as a net positive. You are by definition acting in an idiotic manner. Idiot: - a mentally deficient person, or someone who acts in a self-defeating or significantly counterproductive way. I'm using the second meaning, of course.
      • lukifer 14y ago
• antihero 14y ago
  This is theft. Yet if someone were to get caught shoplifting, they'd face jailtime.
• donniezazen 14y ago
  Stallman becomes more relevant everyday.
• antihero 14y ago
  A random idea but perhaps she logged in with her account onto a public computer that had been used by someone for fraud? I don't know, she should use EU law against Amazon - it should apply as they're operating in the EU.
• SeanDav 14y ago
  Which is why I never purchase DRM goods if I can possibly avoid it. Support vendors that don't have DRM.
• valugi 14y ago
  Welcome to the corporate abuse world. This happend to me before with other companies like Microsoft, Paypal, Visa and it could happen to everybody with any big company. Why? Just because they can. What can you do? Boycott!
• damon 14y ago
  It would be interesting to hear Amazon's side of the story. It just doesn't seem like something any digital retailer would do. Assuming Lynn did no wrong and this is entirely a fraud algorithm problem on Amazon's side, you would think there is a higher authority within Amazon to dispute the problem. It's a shame they they didn't offer her anything in terms of dispute resolution or fraud prevention. I'm going to email Amazon's feedback link as chanux did, I hope the larger HN community does the same.
• NaturalDoc 14y ago
  Its real simple folks. Refuse to do business with Amazon or any affiliates (sites hosted with AWS, amazon affiliates). It was once said if you are not a part of the solution, you are part of the problem. The solution is to make Amazon feel your displeasure in their bottom line. It is pathetic what we have allowed corporations to do to us when we are the one's providing them the power to do it. Maybe we, as a society, have just become too lazy and complacent to worry about being trampled on?
• mikecane 14y ago
  There is new information here: Rights? You have no right to your eBooks. http://blogs.computerworlduk.com/simon-says/2012/10/rights-you-have-no-right-to-your-ebooks/index.htm http://blogs.computerworlduk.com/simon-says/2012/10/rights-y... Edited to add: So this seems to be a case of a used Kindle's UDID being tied to a previously-suspended account and she got caught in the dragnet by buying that device used without knowing of its history. At some point -- if someone can get through to a live human being at Amazon -- this should all be straightened out. This is yet another reason why everyone should be careful buying used electronics with UDIDs (see eBay and Craigslist for all the "clean ESN" mentions for used phones!).
• lollancf37 14y ago
  Well my Kindle 3G doesn't work anymore, I was planning on buying the new one... Now I know I won't. Thanks for the reminder
• jksmith 14y ago
  Need something that hacks Amazon's control of Kindles.
• crististm 14y ago
  Actually, DRM at its finest. Until enough people get screwed by DRM, the R from DRM will come from Rights instead of Restrictions. Unfortunately, I see no shortage for stories like this in the future.
• andrewpi 14y ago
  Apparently Amazon didn't wipe her Kindle: https://twitter.com/webmink/status/260432600814981120 https://twitter.com/webmink/status/260432600814981120
  • mike-cardwell 14y ago
    But her account was cancelled and her Kindle is broken, so she can't retrieve any of her books if she gets a new Kindle. Which is practically as bad really.
• jamesaguilar 14y ago
  Oof. That would be horrible. I need to crack the DRM on my books and move them to a safe place ASAP.
• arandomJohn 14y ago
  First a disclaimer: I think this is outrageous and hope that her account is restored. Now my questions: Does her account use her home address? That seems unlikely as she is in Norway but is dealing with Amazon US. What are the rules for purchasing content when you're not resident? Could this be the problem? If so that sucks. Secondly, it appears that she began her Kindle odyssey with a used Kindle. Could that be what links her account to a fraudulent one? A unique ID from one of her devices has been used by someone else in the past?
• mark_l_watson 14y ago
  I have sympathy for the lady (and others) who lost their Kindle books. However, I am going to take the opposition view here because I feel like people don't understand 'the beast' also known as Amazon. Amazon optimizes on low margins, and cheap prices for goods (both physical and electronic). Amazon optimizes on the benefit to the mass majority of their customers at the expense of a small minority who do occasionally get "thrown under the bus." I buy lots of Kindle books, but there are a few things I do to mitigate risk. First, for technical books I try to buy from publishers who have daily 30% to 50% off sales where I get PDF, a MOBI (Kindle format), and a iPub files. Secondly, I buy a physical book if I think that a book will have long term value (for example, I would read it several times during a financial meltdown when electricity is scarce, and we spend most of our time grubbing around for food - this has happened in Argentina, Russia, Iraq, etc., and it may well happen sometime in the USA). Thirdly, I buy "good deals" on the Kindle; for example, I am reading James Joyce's "Ulysses" right now and I only paid about $2 for it - a great bargain.
  • nasmorn 14y ago
    You do know Ulysses is out of Copyright? You paid 2$ for the convenience of not using project gutenbergs version.
• realrocker 14y ago
  I am really infuriated by this. It's high time one of us build's Kindle's competition. DRM "must" not be handled by the store. If DRM has to exist, it should be the prerogative of the author not the store owner. What the hell man!!
• Karunamon 14y ago
  I understand the fear expressed here by a number of people that this might happen to them, but honestly? I think the answer here is pretty mundane and deserves a bit of perspective. Some low level intern screwed up somewhere. While that hardly excuses Amazon for their exceptionally horrendous CS in this case (usually they're know for being good on that front), ask yourself: * How many customers does Amazon have? * How many instances of this have ever happened? * How likely is it to happen again? The answers there are "a hell of a lot" (>100M), not many, and not very. One cockup with one customer hasn't shaken my faith in Amazon's ecosystem. They're going to have to try a lot harder in order to achieve that goal. Look at another platform like Steam. I'd say they have even more issues because they'll actually dismiss people from the service for things like card chargebacks or restrict multiplayer account-wide in case of cheating. They've had errors too. They're rare and statistically insignificant, just like in this case. And for the love of god if you're going to downvote me, please at least bother to explain why so we can all learn something.
• cletus 14y ago
  The fact that Amazon can do this is obviously scary, particularly for those with extensive Kindle libraries. Personally I love the idea of ebooks but the publishers are doing their best to kill this market (eg Surface Detail in paperback is $6, as an ebook its $10 WTF?). Now I can't speak to the truth of these claims. I have no inside knowledge but I will say this: be skeptical of such stories. I have seen other stories like this on HN where I have had some inside knowledge and I can tell you that there have definitely been cases that vary between being one side of the story to being a distortion of facts and events to being outright lies. It's a common theme to have a post of "[BigCo] shut down my account for no reason". I describe such stories as "unverifiable stories in which the poster is a victim". Like I said, this could all be exactly as the poster claims but it might not be as well. It could be as simple as the person having the same name as someone who got blocked in the US. Who knows? Amazon needs to be extremely careful to be right in situations like this or they risk undermining the ecosystem they've spent so long to create. I don't mind buying Kindle novels because I tend to only ever read them once. And if they were $6 (like the paperbacks often are) I'd view them as a throwaway purchase. But when it comes to technical books--books I'll often refer back to and that can cost much more--I'll have to make sure I either only buy the PDF version or I buy the PDF+mobi+epub upgrade from the publisher after buying the Kindle book (2 thumbs up to publishers who do this BTW).
  • pnathan 14y ago
    Well, I figure when I get home, I'll rsync the kindle over to a local directory. :-)
    • mayneack 14y ago
      Get rid of the DRM first. They'd be useless without an amazon account otherwise.
    • jb55 14y ago
      I do this, but not with rsync. I put PDFs and books that I want to read into my Dropbox during the day. When I get home I bidirectionally sync to my kindle dx with Unison (http://www.cis.upenn.edu/~bcpierce/unison/ http://www.cis.upenn.edu/~bcpierce/unison/). I wouldn't trust my books with Amazon, ever.
• tobyjsullivan 14y ago
  Regarding the policy violation, is it possible the problem was the fact she lived in Norway and was using amazon.com? My experience, as a Canadian, is that Amazon encourages use of amazon.ca (your local version of their site) and you have to go through some tricks to use Amazon.com. Many of my friends did because that was the only way to get a kindle and books for years. Are they all at risk of this?
• gbeeson 14y ago
  This entire situation is the foundation of my reluctance to completely shift to 'online media'. I have always understood that I would be leasing the media and that it could be terminated for cause just as the article related. Rough stuff.
• lucian303 14y ago
  Well, that's the last time I buy a kindle or any books from Amazon. ePub and other non-DRM formats exist. Luckily, I have only bough a few books so far that were not free. Of course, for the ones willing to search, the truth is out there ... but the truth is copyrighted. That's what they forgot to mention in the X-Files.
• DenisM 14y ago
  Apparently, Amazon did not delete the books from her Kindle. See the twit: http://boingboing.net/2012/10/22/kindle-user-claims-amazon-dele.html http://boingboing.net/2012/10/22/kindle-user-claims-amazon-d...
• celticbadboy 14y ago
  This is something that's always in the back of mind. Yes the Kindle is awesome, but how hard is it for a bookstore to come to your house and repossess a book?
• bborud 14y ago
  What did we expect? When everything works we all ooh and aah over how great Kindle and a thousand other things like it are. When someone tries to bring a more expensive product to market we scoff and criticize and shake our heads. Well kids, "cheap" has its price, and the price is shitty, impersonal, bullshit customer service. Amazon has been great at customer service for many years in their physical goods-business, but to push cost down for electronic services, this is what you have to expect. In the future things will be cheap and human interaction will be at a premium.
• engtech 14y ago
  Here's a fun game to illustrate why we should be interested in protecting consumer rights to maintain their own libraries of digital goods. Go back through the New York Time Best Seller list in 5 year increments, and see at what point you start reaching books you've never heard of and that are no longer in print. It's pretty revealing that except for novels that are in school curriculum or transferred to another medium (book, TV) the majority of best sellers are only relevant for 15-20 years. If you're in your late 30s or old, try to find a new copy of some favourite novels from your adolescence. Good luck.
• brokentone 14y ago
  Whether the story is completely true, whether it has another side, or if it's a complete farce, we understand this situation could happen under the agreements we make to Amazon and just about every other digital services provider (yes, we've jumped from goods to services). When we understand that, don't take action, and continue purchasing from any of the companies that legalese themselves onto a fortified high ground that disadvantages consumers to this degree, we're part of the problem. The very fact this story is this popular is because we all understand it could happen to us, think that by upvoting it, commenting on it, and sharing it, we're making a difference, but then we go right back to Amazon and purchase more things. Perpetuating the cycle.
• akavlie 14y ago
  Something very similar happened to my seller account late last year. The emails were very similar -- including the cause for the closure (alleged linkage to a previously closed account). Story here: http://aaron.kavlie.net/2011/12/web/amazon-com-just-closed-my-seller-account-no-warning-no-details/ http://aaron.kavlie.net/2011/12/web/amazon-com-just-closed-m... My story got to the top spot on Hacker News and, thanks to the exposure there, Amazon reversed its decision. At no point did I get anything that looked like a personalized response -- just terse form emails that didn't divulge any details. What surprises me the most about this story is that they use the same approach with the consumer end of the business. I figured that the ham-handed treatment I got was due to Amazon's lack of care for that particular piece of their business, and that any issue with buyers would be taken up with more personal attention, and provide ample opportunity for appeal. Guess I was wrong.
• frobozz 14y ago
  IANAL, but I believe that the Personopplysningsloven is compliant with Directive 95/46/EC; of which Article 12 has provisions against the behaviour exhibited by Amazon in this exchange.
• sbochins 14y ago
  I don't think I'll ever buy into a closed system like Amazon ebooks. Seems like you can have so much eggs in one basket and they can just smash your eggs w/o giving any reason. I don't read a lot of books for my free time. I have a safari books account at work that I use a lot. It is nice since it is kind of like Netflix. It's just a subscription, so they can't pull anything crazy like Amazon is doing here. I also like the feel of actual books, and they are nice decorations in your house.
• russelluresti 14y ago
  This is why it's extremely important to use programs like Calibre to back up all your Amazon or Nook or whatever else purchases.
• epaga 14y ago
  Just had the following support chat with an Amazon rep: Me:I have really enjoyed Kindle on multiple devices so far but I just read the following account of a different Kinde customer and am appalled at Amazon's treatment of this individual: http://www.bekkelund.net/2012/10/22/outlawed-by-amazon-drm/ http://www.bekkelund.net/2012/10/22/outlawed-by-amazon-drm/ Is it really true that at any moment, Amazon could delete all my books and not tell me the reason? If so, I strongly request that Amazon revisit its DRM rules & regulations. Thanks! Hi Elakkiya! Elakkiya:Hello, I'm Elakkiya from Amazon Kindle support.I'll be happy to help you today Me:awesome Basically it comes down to these terms cited by Amazon Exec Michael Murphy in his letter: "Per our Conditions of Use which state in part: Amazon.co.uk and its affiliates reserve the right to refuse service, terminate accounts, remove or edit content, or cancel orders at their sole discretion." Is this true? Without needing to cite any reasons whatsoever, is Amazon able to delete all my books? Elakkiya:I'm sorry for the inconvenience you had about this. May I place you on hold for 1 to 2 minutes while I check this for you? Me:Sure No inconvenience so far for ME just for the person in that article so I'm asking if it is factually correct Elakkiya:Thanks for waiting. Me:sure Elakkiya:It seems there was some problem with the account. This is the reason for the account closure. Me:obviously. :) the appalling thing is that amazon doesn't want to tell her what problem so my question is: does Amazon not NEED to tell its customers which problem an account has before closing it? obviously amazon needs to have the right to close accounts but i'd say in those cases it also has the responsibility to state why more than a hand-wavy "there were problems" Elakkiya:May I place you on hold for 1 to 2 minutes while I check this for you? Me:sure Elakkiya:Thanks for waiting. Me:sure Elakkiya:On further going through this issue, I see that I need to transfer your concern to the appropriate department who handle these kind of issues. Me:ok please do that. will they respond via email then? Elakkiya:Yes, you should hear back from them in the next 1-2 business days. Me:great. i assume you have my email since i'm logged in, right? Elakkiya:Yes,John. Me:Thanks, Elakkiya. Have a great day! Elakkiya:You're welcome. Thank you for visiting Amazon.com. We look forward to seeing you again soon.
• shmerl 14y ago
  Breaking DRM and making personal backups should be the first step for those who use such services.
• noonespecial 14y ago
  So now corporations also have no-fly lists? Fantastic.
• miles 14y ago
  Update: Simon Phipp sez, "Kindlegate update: Linn says her account was mysteriously re-activated after my article published." via http://boingboing.net/2012/10/22/kindle-user-claims-amazon-dele.html http://boingboing.net/2012/10/22/kindle-user-claims-amazon-d...
• gliese1337 14y ago
  This is why I will not buy proprietary readers like Kindle, nor access to any digital media for which I do not get my very own copy of a file I can back up on my very own hard-drives. The story doesn't particularly make me hate Amazon- it's just one anecdote, and I've had great experiences with Amazon customer service myself- but it shows what can be done. No matter how much I might like Amazon's other services, I will never trust any company not to do anything that they are technically capable of doing. To keep them from screwing you over, don't give them the power to do so.
• latetext 14y ago
  I was planning on getting a kindle in December... Will not now until I see a public statement from Michael Murphy and his boss..
• guiambros 14y ago
  Update: seems her access was just reinstated. No further comments from Amazon, but their PR team did clarify that account status has nothing to do with access to your book's library" -- this is positive news, but still need further clarification. How can I download my books without my account? "We would like to clarify our policy on this topic. Account status should not affect any customer's ability to access their library. If any customer has trouble accessing their content, he or she should contact customer service for help. Thank you for your interest in Kindle." http://boingboing.net/2012/10/22/kindle-user-claims-amazon-dele.html http://boingboing.net/2012/10/22/kindle-user-claims-amazon-d...
• olalonde 14y ago
  This guy sounds like a total jerk. Reminds me of some exchanges I had with Paypal's customer support.
• frownie 14y ago
  Damn you all, you're so naive... 1/ Amazon is a private company. 2/ You don't buy books from them, you buy a license to read them. So by buying a book, you agree with their power. If you don't like to be in such control, then please, apply one of the start up credo : find a better competitor. But don't complain, please. (and the same goes with Apple who surely has some super control on your phone, and don't complain about FaceBook when they'll kill your account when you don't behave.) Welcome to the privacy nightmare you all voted for by buying their shiny stuff. Another option is : court ! Hey but you don't have enough money ? Hey, but that's what happens when you deal alone with a megacorp : you're just a small insect. Funny people often forget that... stF
• pleskon 14y ago
  > The fact that Amazon can do this is It is detailed in the contract few people bother to read prior to signing! . > The problem? Microsoft has your operating system, > Google has your email, eBay has your stuff, PayPal > has your money, Amazon has your books, Facebook has > your social life, etc. . The problem is YOU GAVE each of those entities information out of hand with misplaced trust. . > We need to push for a universal option for arbitration Push for less inane contractual terms first. Then change the cultural ethos of wrong-tolerance.
• tsotha 14y ago
  I would think this is actionable in the US. Her being in Norway complicates things. I've spent more than $1k on ebooks for my kindle. If Amazon did this to me they'd definitely have a lawsuit on their hands. Not because I would win in court, but because I could use it as a springboard to do millions of dollars in damage to their reputation.
• wolfhumble 14y ago
  Seems like her account has been opened up again for some reason . . . http://goo.gl/MZVzZ http://goo.gl/MZVzZ (Norwegian website digi.no via google translate)
• e12e 14y ago
  FWIW, I'm from Norway, and this story seems legit - although it hasn't (yet) blown up in dead tree media over here. I think it just might. On a related note (unfortunately not an alternative to everything Amazon offers): http://www.tor.com/blogs/2012/07/torforge-e-books-are-now-drm-free http://www.tor.com/blogs/2012/07/torforge-e-books-are-now-dr...
  • e12e 14y ago
    http://translate.google.no/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=no&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.itavisen.no%2F904648%2Fforbrukerraadet-helt-haarreisende&act=url http://translate.google.no/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&j... A comment from the Norwegian Government's "Consumer Council" - charged with protecting (private) consumer rights.
• atas 14y ago
  That's why we still need local storage.