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Cognizant found guilty of discriminating against non-Indian employees
- gnabgib 2y agoAlso (18 points, 1 day ago) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41774300 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41774300
- tho342424334234 2y ago[flagged]
- actionfromafar 2y agoIndia is a lot more than Hindu.
- newaccount321 2y agoBut, the problems outlined here are emblematic of the Hindu faith. There is no point in shying away from criticizing a religious line of thought when it deserves criticism.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- tho342424334234 2y ago[flagged]
- throwawayian 2y agoSeeing this happen at an originally Australian unicorn after the technical co-founder stepped down and new CTO swapped out all of their engineering leadership with Indian hires from Microsoft. Previously saw it at a lesser degree to older unicorns and places like Oracle, IBM, etc. Although it’s normalised in the latter ones.
- eastbound 2y agoWhich explains why its market value is hovering at $160 while its former worth, when it was properly managed, was $3-400. Am I spot on? The problem is that every Fortune 500’s internal systems are hooked up to it.
- logicchains 2y agoAtlassian? As a user, I haven't noticed any decline in quality; it's just as painful to use now as it was a decade ago.
- eastbound 2y agoIt’s also probably 5x more expensive than a decade ago. As you said, still painful to use.
- ActionHank 2y agoMaybe cheaper labour brings hidden expenses.
- f1shy 2y agoYou can ask Boeing ;) Joking, I do not think it is the case, BUT I do know that cheap is often more expensive
- wordofx 2y agoYou can’t notice decline in quality when the quality is already so bad that any change feels like an improvement while still being bad.
- aleph_minus_one 2y ago> You can’t notice decline in quality when the quality is already so bad that any change feels like an improvement while still being bad. In this case we don't have a decline in quality.
- varun_chopra 2y agoIs anyone really surprised? At the risk of sounding racist (though I'm Indian, so I guess I get some leeway here), there are likely more biases at play than it seems. You’ll see South or North Indians from a particular state prefer hiring employees from the same state, who speak the same language, and who look like them. And it doesn’t stop there. Caste discrimination plays a role too, and it even has its own Wiki page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caste_discrimination_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caste_discrimination_in_the_Un.... See also: [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dalit https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dalit [2] https://harpercollinsin.medium.com/how-does-anyone-know-what-your-caste-is-an-excerpt-from-ants-among-elephants-f2aa71e24f26 https://harpercollinsin.medium.com/how-does-anyone-know-what... This kind of thing is so rampant in India that you hear about it all the time on Reddit. So yeah, Cognizant has been found guilty against non-Indians but they probably do this to other Indians.
- romwell 2y ago[flagged]
- wepple 2y ago[flagged]
- lazide 2y agoThe beauty of casteism, and religious discrimination (and less so racism/sexism, though it is certainly possible) is the near fractal nature of the ability to discriminate against someone. After all, there are 3000 ‘main’ castes and 25,000 sub-castes. [https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caste_system_in_India https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caste_system_in_India], and with religious discrimination you can always go into sectarianism/what guru to follow. It’s the discrimination version of the world’s largest choose your own adventure book.
- orlp 2y agohttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l3fAcxcxoZ8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l3fAcxcxoZ8
- seper8 2y ago[flagged]
- beo5 2y agoCan I say then - what a surprise a blanket racist statement. And to add comments by others on how superior their culture is. Must be a American/European.
- sidcool 2y agoIt's the same as saying all whites are racist. Both are wrong.
- f1shy 2y agoI do not understand “… is in culture X” same as “all X are …”
- iinnPP 2y agoThere's a not insignificant group of people who go out of their way to avoid their culture. So no, they are not the same.
- Rinzler89 2y ago[flagged]
- axus 2y agoI'm American and we're infamous for lots of things.
- Rinzler89 2y ago[flagged]
- worthless-trash 2y ago
- usrname 2y agoDamm Microsoft its crazy company
- klramva 2y ago[flagged]
- burnme99111237 2y agoI’ve been very interested in forming a union lately, this is just another straw on the camel’s back. The US Tech Workers site seems to be full of reasons why it is necessary but it cannot be a US movement alone, all tech workers need to have solidarity so these companies can’t shift production to another country in the event of a strike. My search for an organization solely focused on *tech workers* and protecting our trade was fruitless — is there any such organization? If this all sounds interesting to you let’s talk, hn.droop582 @ passmail.net
- yieldcrv 2y agoEveryone on Blind says this all day, and thats basically an Indian social network
- mindentropy 2y agoI am seeing the flight to low cost countries now termed as "Best" cost countries is afoot in Europe. Germany has shot itself in the foot by destroying its energy sector. Now that the energy prices have shot through the roof most of the industries are going to get outsourced. The thirst for cheap labour and where the laws especially labour laws are lax is a wet dream for management.
- Lutzb 2y agoHm, the available data does not support your point/sentiment that energy prices are increasing for industrial customers in Germany. (see https://www.bdew.de/service/daten-und-grafiken/bdew-strompreisanalyse/ https://www.bdew.de/service/daten-und-grafiken/bdew-strompre... or https://www.statista.com/statistics/1050448/industrial-electricity-prices-including-tax-germany/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/1050448/industrial-elect...) From https://www.cleanenergywire.org/news/industry-electricity-prices-german-companies-drop-almost-one-quarter-early-2024 https://www.cleanenergywire.org/news/industry-electricity-pr... > Economist and economy ministry advisor Jens Südekum called the analysis’s results “astonishing.” Commenting on social media platform X, Südekum pointed out that industry prices had fallen “significantly” and that price indicators continued to point downwards. The trend would be similar for private households, albeit at a slower pace, he argued. Once current contracts expire, Südekum said lower prices should become widespread in new ones. “Overall, the BDEW figures don’t chime with current mood in debates, which is that everything is going down the drain due to high energy prices,” he argued.
- hnbad 2y agoFWIW there was a huge surge in energy costs following the war in Ukraine (due to the reduction in supply of Russian gas) which was dampened by the government with a subsidized price cap at 0.40€/kWh - for consumers anyway, as far as I'm aware there were different subsidies for industry. But consumer prices have largely stabilized at a range of 0.25€ - 0.35€ although you'll also find some prices listed as low as 0.20€ or less if you are willing to price hop a lot. Apparently there will also be price cuts in the North and East of Germany as well as Bavaria in the near future but I don't know the specifics of that.
- oefrha 2y agoSource article is here: https://www.mercurynews.com/2024/10/07/h-1b-visa-company-supplying-thousands-of-tech-workers-to-silicon-valley-discriminated-against-non-indians-jury-finds/ https://www.mercurynews.com/2024/10/07/h-1b-visa-company-sup... Paywall workaround: https://archive.is/PiMNU https://archive.is/PiMNU Another non-paywall article on the same topic: https://insider.govtech.com/california/news/jury-finds-discrimination-in-h-1b-visa-tech-worker-case https://insider.govtech.com/california/news/jury-finds-discr... It's about the (previously) Indian outsourcing firm and H-1B body shop supplying contractors to SV companies. It's unrelated to the Indian manager only hiring Indians phenomenon which many people here are discussing; FWIW I believe it was quite widespread at least back when I was in the Valley, but this ruling doesn't address that in any way.
- wslh 2y agoDiscrimination and biases are part of everyday life, whether we like it or not. This is an observation, not an endorsement. Ignoring them is akin to denying human nature or believing that the logical mind can fully control the entirety of our thinking. This is why there are a few academic papers that explore this often-taboo topic. I recommend reading Cultural Biases in Economic Exchange? [1] where there is a table of trust between different European countries. [1] https://www.kellogg.northwestern.edu/faculty/sapienza/htm/cultural_biases.pdf https://www.kellogg.northwestern.edu/faculty/sapienza/htm/cu...
- HKH2 2y agoSorry, nowadays we're supposed to believe everything is programmable/reprogrammable.
- dartharva 2y agoDiscrimination has largely been "reprogrammable" though. E.g. America doesn't have segregation anymore.
- wslh 2y agoI don’t think so. It’s astonishing that segregation laws in America ended in the mid-1960s, just a few years before Apollo 11 landed on the Moon. Other countries, including some with fewer economic resources, abolished segregation much earlier. Although formal segregation laws are gone, racism in America persists, as reflected in ongoing disparities and public perceptions [1]. [1] https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2023/08/25/americans-are-divided-on-whether-society-overlooks-racial-discrimination-or-sees-it-where-it-doesnt-exist/ https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2023/08/25/americans...
- JohnBrookz 2y agoThis happened at intel and was very noticeable even back in 2010. Indians hires other Indians. At every company I’ve been at if you were not Indian you were not invited to the conversation. Sitting in meetings where you were excluded from 30% of the conversation was wild. I never felt like they were rude or anything though- just that I was an outsider. Best team I worked with was very diverse and they actively worked to help each other get promoted and protect each other.
- kevin_thibedeau 2y agoI worked at a company with a large multi-ethnic workforce. They had an Indian subsidiary but didn't play the H1B game. The rule was English only in the office to avoid exclusion.
- hggigg 2y agoSame experience here. On a positive note I got replaced by a guy in India. Then after a year of them clambering over each other’s corpses for promotion and destroying the org from the inside, I got hired back on contract to unfuck the mess at 4x my previous salaried rate. Nothing against India or Indians but the reason outsourcing fails is no one wants to be an outsourced workforce so they go for promotion first to get a better job. And I don’t blame them.
- quadrifoliate 2y ago> Sitting in meetings where you were excluded from 30% of the conversation was wild. I am curious, was this due to them speaking in a different language in actual professional meetings at Intel? I have often heard these reports, but in a social context. I have never personally observed this in professional settings; but am curious to hear more so I can watch out for it if/when I do encounter it. It's odd because I would struggle to hold a professional conversation in any of the Indian languages that I speak (I have no idea how to say something like "thermal characteristics" or "power dissipation" in them); and would likely keep lapsing into English.
- mytailorisrich 2y agoI have many Indian colleagues and they do tend not to speak English among them in the office. There needs to be someone else involved in the conversation for them to stick to English. Another aspect is that I have found that they are quite hierarchical, probably a cultural trait. So how much they stick to English also depends on how senior the "non-Indian(s)" are compared to them. If you are their senior they are very nice.
- supriyo-biswas 2y agoMy guess would be that a lot of non-Indians at these companies are rejected on the basis of "vibes"; which is slightly different from racism as I explain below, although it probably ends up having the same net effect as overt racism. As an Indian, I've observed that collectivism and subservience towards authority figures are taught as virtues; this obviously makes it quite easy for employers to extract unreasonable demands such as long working hours, transgressions of ethical limits, things that are "bad", but that generates benefits for the employer. On the other hand, European and American societies generally focus on individualism and autonomy, which obviously causes a conflict when an Indian hiring manager sees anything other than complete deference to them as a threat, and proceeds to reject such candidates.
- Dalewyn 2y ago>collectivism and subservience towards authority figures are taught as virtues Remind me to never fly on a plane piloted by an Indian flight crew. (Protip: If you can't stand up to your captain, your plane is going down.)
- nasmorn 2y agoStill very rarely, just significantly more often
- joncrocks 2y agoSee cultural `power-distance`. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impact_of_culture_on_aviation_safety#Cultural_differences_in_aviation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impact_of_culture_on_aviation_...
- fakedang 2y ago> Remind me to never fly on a plane piloted by an Indian flight crew. (Protip: If you can't stand up to your captain, your plane is going down.) Not sure if you're joking, but this is actually cited as one of the reasons behind one crash. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_India_Express_Flight_1344 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_India_Express_Flight_134...
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- ewuhic 2y agoHow to fight back when you see this happening at line management level, but not yet proliferated to upper management? Indian product owner taking mostly to Indian peer developers, bypassing normal communication channels. Indians being friendly with each other and stone cold with the rest. Indians bringing Indian jokes to the table, with no outsider hoping to understand these. Indians bonding to go to Indian restaurants during lunch break, so now most of the colleagues follow suit, how to stop it all? All these culture things (except for the first regarding PO which is spit-in-the-face level of unprofessionalism) add up, and then you find yourself in a corporation described in other messages of this thread. I had to offboard from multiple projects throughout my career because development was hijacked by Indian cronyism.
- amazinteresting 2y agoBest course of action is symmetrical response.
- mathverse 2y ago[flagged]
- Eumenes 2y agoThis is obvious at a number of these big box consulting firms for many years (Tata, Cognizant, HCL, Capgemini). Its so easy to verify too - go on linkedin and comb through dozens of search results of exclusively Indians (I'm not talking about American-Indians who go to undergrad in the US like every other person). These firms also take a lions share of the h1b visas which is another conversation - why does India get to have 75% of all h1b visas? Seems not very diverse.
- lmz 2y ago> why does India get to have 75% of all h1b visas? Seems not very diverse. Not to defend the Indians or their paymasters, but the H1B isn't diversity based, and there are a lot of Indians who also speak English, so...
- dartharva 2y agoBecause there are just that many applicants from India? The result of this is also that Indians have virtually no scope of settling down in the US, since the waitlist for green card for them goes beyond 134 years. Which means none of those H1B holders are going to stay.
- Eumenes 2y agoWho processes the applicants? Indian bosses (see the tweet/articles). Many US permeant residents are being passed over at these big consulting firms in favor of Indians. Its nepotism, 100%. Indians in the US are not discriminated against. Despite being < 2% of the population of the US, they have an oversized influence in many industries/management level roles.
- dartharva 2y agoIf only H1Bs were given out in an auction instead of a lottery.. Think about it, this could solve everything. There would no longer be exploitation on either side.
- thisislife2 2y ago> why does India get to have 75% of all h1b visas? Seems not very diverse. I'd wager it's a deliberate US state policy. It's because we indians are good immigrants - whether it be US, Europe or the middle-east, we tend to respect (even if we necessarily don't like) the local culture and laws and try to avoid trouble and be good citizens (often better than in our own country :). And the US is a country built by immigrants that needs people. That is why Indians today are one of the largest immigrant group in the US. Also, cheap labour. That's capitalism at work - why hire American when the whole world can be your HR pool?
- voiceoftruth 2y agoAs others have already pointed out, this is due to the "group-think" mentality that is an inherent part of the hindu religion, which has spilled into the political and social conscience in the last decade, or so. I have thought hard about it, the only solution to this problem to treat hinduism as an umbrella that houses many different faiths (castes, ethinicities, linguistic groups, etc.) and then promote universal reservations across the government and non-government sectors to reflect the true hindu makeup. I also, support bringing the religious minorities into the fold. This will upset the cronyism that is present currently, and allow the truly meritorious to succeed from each group. Think of this, the meritorious get their opportunities and the demographic makeup is correctly reflected across the spectrum. Thankfully, this line of thought is gradually picking up pace in India. I am hopeful of the future that everyone, irrespective of their caste, language and faith, will be able to prosper in India.
- lazide 2y agoAny reservations, ultimately, are doomed to fail as they just foster the exact same type of cronyism with the fractal levels of definitions of castes/reservations. Reservations in general encourage it, as someone has to decide who is ‘in’ the group, and that is never merit based. Ultimately, blind meritocracy is the only option - but that is also extremely difficult to do. See the historic Chinese style civil service exams for how that can be implemented, and its pros/cons. One major issue with blind meritocracy is it strongly favors those from families who can invest in their children - aka the rich. Though, there is a path for improvement for those with raw intelligence, unless the tests favor brute force memorization. Like most Chinese tests historically have.
- claudiug 2y ago[flagged]
- newaccount321 2y agoSame here
- hshshshsvsv 2y ago[flagged]
- freilanzer 2y ago[flagged]
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- dang 2y agoPosts like this will get you banned on HN. Regardless of which group you have a problem with, please don't do this again. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- pk_anon123 2y agoI just posted this comment with a new account to check how easily hearsay influences people's opinions with no backing, whatsoever. I hope this thread will stay up as a reminder to stay civil and not get carried away by clouded judgement.
- pm90 2y agoHow is this discrimination manifested? How do these managers know your country of origin?
- mattmaroon 2y agoAn Indian person can spot a Pakistani (and vice versa) easily. There’s a good bit of historical enmity between the two nations.
- Cthulhu_ 2y agoDoes this apply to castes as well? I mean in western Europe you can often pick out the classism based on how people dress, have their hair and what their accent is (I'm very obvious because of my "provincial" accent and terrible sense of style, lol). Classism in the Netherlands isn't too bad though, unless you're from the old aristocracies (they live in certain areas, go to private schools, often have archaic letter combos like Y, AE, CK, or apostrophes in their multi-word surnames, etc [1]), they definitely live on their own island. Often end up in politics, too, because so it goes. [1] https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lijst_van_Nederlandse_adellijke_families_(alfabetisch) https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lijst_van_Nederlandse_adellijk...
- consp 2y ago> Classism in the Netherlands isn't too bad though Wait until they figure out you earn less than them. "You cannot understand [rich people bs 'struggle']" I've had the misfortune of hearing over and over again, them showing a complete lack of any form of empathy for anyone except their own class.
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- fakedang 2y agoI wrote about this in another comment, but I've typically found that public US companies hiring a majority of Indian/Indian-origin staff seem to perform (in market cap terms) on par with companies have just 10% of their total employee headcount.
- gruez 2y agoSource? Would be an interesting finding if there were figures behind it.
- jackcosgrove 2y agoEven if true it doesn't prove anything because the arrow of causation could go either way. These businesses could be already worse from a financial or working environment perspective, and thus unable to hire from a pool of workers who have more options.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- selimthegrim 2y agoDo you have a link to your other comment?
- jgalt212 2y ago[flagged]
- bobosha 2y agoI am a proud Indian-American (naturalized after h1b) and I think this kind of discriminatory mindset has no place anywhere, definitely not in the workplace. I think my community can be secure in its success and learn to do better and be open to critique. Let's work to abolish these attitudes by being more self-aware and raising awareness & use cautionary tales like this as a wake-up call.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- dartharva 2y ago[flagged]
- hsyehbeidhh 2y ago[dead]
- vitus 2y agoWhy is the submission a link to a twitter screenshot of a news article? https://www.mercurynews.com/2024/10/07/h-1b-visa-company-supplying-thousands-of-tech-workers-to-silicon-valley-discriminated-against-non-indians-jury-finds/ https://www.mercurynews.com/2024/10/07/h-1b-visa-company-sup... is the paywalled source. That said, https://www.siliconvalley.com/2024/10/07/h-1b-visa-company-supplying-thousands-of-tech-workers-to-silicon-valley-discriminated-against-non-indians-jury-finds/ https://www.siliconvalley.com/2024/10/07/h-1b-visa-company-s... seems to be the exact same article (author, timestamp, and all) published by the same group (Bay Area News Group) but without a paywall. (Both siliconvalley.com and mercurynews.com are registered to MediaNews Group, which is the owner of Bay Area News Group as of 2006.)
- dang 2y agoSwitched to that latter link now. Thanks! Submitters: "Please submit the original source. If a post reports on something found on another site, submit the latter." - https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- hshshshsvsv 2y ago[flagged]
- mr90210 2y agoYou are oversimplifying it: NBA - Physical attributes do matter a lot. NBAs management, team owners, coaches tend to be non-Black. Nobel prize - Perhaps because a good chunk of Jews tend to be into academia and research life. I cannot comment on sales/marketing/real estate in US as I don’t live there but I’d like to believe that isn’t an active effort to keep non-whites out of these areas. All of those things are completely different from being actively left out of meetings just because you aren’t an Indian.
- hshshshsvsv 2y agoYou are over indexing on leaving out of business meetings as a general trait of Indians. It's not. Don't you realize how stupid and racist that sounds?
- mr90210 2y agoIt is you the racist by referring to Indians as a race. Learn about your own people first, the Indo-Aryans.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- eru 2y agoSince there's a lot of negativity about Indians in the comments here: I just worked for a startup with many Indians (including the founder). It was all fine, and I liked my coworkers. I can understand that other people had different experiences: companies and people differ. For context, everything was remote, and I worked from Singapore. I'm not India, but I do like to prepone my meetings.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- p_l 2y agoThe big problem are WITCH companies (of which "C" is for Cognizant usually) and those that, through osmosis or purposeful actions, copy their practices. The contracting companies probably single-handed build and maintain lots of racist stereotypes against indians, because the level of service those companies offer is always unmitigated failure, even internally. I once accidentally stumbled into working on a contract through WiPro myself, and it was a horrific experience. The way I see it, the line workers that end up the target of ire and stereotypes are just victims of actions taken way above them. The people who can, apparently avoid working for them, or use every opportunity to escape. Those who can't yet but have ambition for more, apparently use every opportunity to escape - whether it is by jumping ship on H1B, or otherwise. Those currently stuck are in no way encouraged to do a good job, and for obvious cost cutting you get people who were in no way prepared to do the job. Occasionally a client will get angry enough and they will pull an actually skilled person to smooth the ruffled feathers, someone they usually trot for dog&pony show when winning the contract as example of who is supposed to work on it. But the "important" people, upper management who decide to contract with WITCH, and the upper management of WITCH who run such strategy, they all profit. The managers and/or C-level who outsource sight-unseen with no quality enforcement disappear with their rewards before institutional inertia stops papering over their decisions. The WITCH companies pocket huge amounts of money while paying pittance to line workers and providing worse than zero service.
- eru 2y agoYeah, that sounds pretty dreadful. A few jobs ago, when I was working for a third-tier legacy bank, my manager joked that all the outsourcing they were doing was actually really useful and pragmatic, because it means they can fail their IT projects cheaper. (The implication being that their projects were by and large inevitably doomed anyway.)
- tock 2y agoIt's weird how racism against Indians online is so normalised. I see the same on reddit too.
- fennecfoxy 2y ago[flagged]
- tock 2y agoJust my experience. I reckon a lot of recent events like buying oil from Russia has sadly justified it for a lot of people.
- delta_p_delta_x 2y agoNot the parent commenter, but from what I've seen, they are correct, and as far as Reddit is concerned, especially so. Genuine criticism of India's government and some Indian/Hindu cultural practices can quickly devolve into disgusting racist diatribes and stereotypes that wouldn't fly against people from other countries. Try using the hard-r n-word as a non-black person, or calling someone with East Asian phenotypes a 'Chinaman', or any Native American stereotype today, and see how quickly you bring a firestorm upon yourself. Meanwhile, people on Reddit call Indians street-sh*tters or cow pi*s drinkers, and no one bats an eyelid. I have seen these words verbatim on places like /r/worldnews, without censorship or bans whatsoever. Racism against Indians is normalised, full stop.
- claudiug 2y ago[flagged]
- hshshshsvsv 2y ago[flagged]
- navigate8310 2y ago[flagged]
- roschdal 2y ago[flagged]
- elisharobinson 2y agoSome of the reasons why this is happening : -> Getting an assignment in the US is viewed as a reward for employees who work in the company for 5+ years. -> H1B visa employess are given a 50% minimum discount to market rate. cause lol what are you gonna do . Quit and go back in the Queue for H1B. -> nepotism / favoritism self explanatory. -> Are more willing to work 40+ hours a week. Less likely to take vacations. These are the observations of myself and members of my family who are from India.
- infecto 2y agoIs that discount really true? There is a definite discount but I have never seen 50%, all of this data is online, you can see the payroll for H1B employees. https://h1bdata.info/ https://h1bdata.info/
- victor106 2y agoI have personally experienced this in all my previous projects and my current one. H1B does suppress wages as employees don’t care how much they are paid. They only care that they stay on H1 so they get their green cards. However, one they get their green card they feel the same that H1B’s suppress wages…lol…
- infecto 2y agoEh, your not wrong but my counter point is when I have looked up people before in the public data, their salary was in line what I and others were making in the same role. The H1B data does not list name but it is detailed enough that you can generally guess who it is in small-medium size companies.
- elisharobinson 2y agothanks for the ref , but it kinda proves the point . your source suggests the avg comp for senior software engineer is 100-150 K . on glass door it 178-263 . https://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/senior-software-engineer-salary-SRCH_KO0,24.htm https://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/senior-software-engineer-... .
- mr90210 2y agoI am going to disclose my own bias here: I tend to look for multicultural teams and somewhat evenly distributed. As an African so far I have worked and learnt a lot from a Brazilian-Japanese, Bulgarian, Portuguese, Dutch, Belgian, Israeli, Russian, English, Indian, Pakistani, German, Argentinian, and a Polish. Some of which I have the pleasure to call friend.
- atcognizant 2y agoSome of favorite coworkers have been from India during my career. This includes both their personalities as I got to know them and their demeanor at work. I have worked at Cognizant for just over a year. Though we don't have this problem on my immediate team, it is something we talk about because it's obvious in other teams and as an overall culture at the company. It doesn't seem like overt discrimination (from me and my coworkers limited perspectives). There's a couple factors 1. People hire who they know. About two thirds of the employees are of Indian descent. So on average they hire their friends and former coworkers who are also Indian. 2. Leadership requires the offshore teams to be on every project. This is to keep costs down and because the other lines of business besides their main and original one (staff augmentation) are relatively new. 3. A minority (but not a small one) of Indians really are just blatantly discriminatory.
- commandlinefan 2y ago> Some of favorite coworkers have been from India Mine, too. Some of my least favorite coworkers have been from India as well. Mostly because almost all of my coworkers have been from India since about 1997.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- bushido 2y agoThe comments on this story are very interesting - not in the good way. This rhetoric is very similar to previous ones that existed in over the decades like Jewish/Polish/Chinese/etc people only doing business with other people of their groups. Or democrats/republicans in deep blue/red states sticking with their own. Back to the topic: I know a lot of 2nd, 3rd generation Indians who definitely do not fit the stereotypes. What we're likely seeing is the effect of three things: - Indian has a very community based dynamic that prioritizes group identity over individual identities, a number of folks have never experienced being outside their groups - Newly arrived Individual are likely experiencing culture shock, it happens to most people. It's very much a fight or flight response. People either choose the tribe they know, or find a new one. The later is rare - Most other ethnic groups we're hearing about took a few generations to get to white collar jobs, they already understood local norms, because these were their norms. We're seeing a lot of 1st generation Indians (and some other groups) start in white collar professions, and that will play out differently.
- p_l 2y agoI think it's offloading well known problematic companies issues like Cognizant onto nationality. It's the nature of service that WITCH prefers to provide and puts people in position where it's hard to change it, and the executives who contract with WITCH.
- bushido 2y agoGood point. That initialism is new to me, I can see how companies that fall into that group can be problematic.
- horns4lyfe 2y agoNone of this will matter when the entirety of IT and software dev becomes an ethnic enclave for Indians, while being told that there’s just not enough local talent. It’s going to happen, just a matter of time, and we’ll all suffer for it.
- dartharva 2y agoThe waitlist for Indians to get a green card (i.e. second-class citizenship) is 134 years currently. By the end of this decade, it will touch 200. No regular Indian going on a work visa to the US currently has any significant scope of ever being recognized a citizen. Think of that what you will, but the list of incentives an Indian has to bother integrating into American society is rather short.
- raincom 2y agoProduce kids on American soil. These kids can sponsor parents once a kid reaches 18 years of age.
- bongoman42 2y agoOr marry someone born outside of India, which lots of people are doing.
- rudnevr 2y agothat's what they actually do, yes. It's been a joke first, not anymore
- p_l 2y agoCognizant, Infosys, etc. are also quite well known to avoid putting their H1B (or equivalent) in position to consider staying or have opportunity to stay.
- wslh 2y agoGenuinely asking as someone not deeply familiar with the complexities of Indian culture: India now has the largest population in the world, is the biggest democracy, and has significant potential for growth (e.g. reducing poverty). At the same time, we see Indian leaders in top positions in major U.S. companies, like the CEOs of Google (1st gen) and Microsoft (2nd gen). How do these factors all connect? What drives this mix of internal challenges and global success? I’m not naive in thinking that a few successful individuals represent an entire population, but I do see a signal there.
- jl6 2y agoThe worst HR case I ever got involved in was a semi-onshore (Indian) development team who couldn't deal with having a female (Indian) tech lead. She was eminently qualified for the role, but they would attempt to undermine her at every turn, speak over her, hold meetings without her, always going over her head... Caste did not appear to be a factor; it seemed to be good old fashioned sexism.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- Rinzler89 2y ago[flagged]
- red-iron-pine 2y agosexism and non-egalitarian behavior is pretty common across the globe. I'd argue that the west, esp. N America, is the exception, not the rule. and even there, there are pressures working against it.
- Rinzler89 2y ago[flagged]
- dang 2y agoNationalistic/racial/ethnic/religious/whatever-this-is slurs will get you banned here. It's not what this site is for, and destroys what it is for. Please don't post anything like this again. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- Rinzler89 2y agoRead my comment again please. Where did you see me posting any nationalistic slurs? Perhaps you're mistaken and wanted to reply to someone else.
- dartharva 2y agodang? Where are you? This comment section has gone to the gutter. Please flag this thread. This isn't even that significant of a news - we can come back to this when the court actually hands a ruling.
- dang 2y agoI've done some moderating in here now, but if you want to alert us to something like this, it's necessary to email hn@ycombinator.com. If you see a post that ought to have been moderated but hasn't been, the likeliest explanation is that we didn't see it. You can help by flagging it or emailing us. https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&query=likeliest%20explanation%20by%3Adang&sort=byDate&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&qu...
- Molitor5901 2y agoThe only point of contention I have with this whole debate is the general premise that it's wrong to make citizens of a country redundant (lay them off) in order to replace with cheaper labor brought in from other countries. From an accounting standpoint perhaps it makes sense, but from the view of the workers, and the community, it just seems wrong.
- lupusreal 2y agoUnionization could, at least in principle, offer a solution.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- Nefariouspurpus 2y agoAlthough I'm not deeply familiar with the specifics of this particular case, it raises broader questions about the industry that specializes in outsourcing, particularly to countries like India. If outsourcing is a core part of a company's business model, isn’t it inevitable that more jobs will continue to be funneled to countries like India, and, consequently, to Indian workers? While I understand this particular case involves allegations of discrimination within U.S. offices, the larger trend seems unavoidable. As companies prioritize cost-efficiency, it may no longer make economic sense for citizens of HCOL countries, to seek employment with such firms. Similarly, these companies are likely incentivized to constantly try and minimize the number of high-cost employees—whether they are Indians on H1B visas or American citizens—on their payroll. This raises a concern about whether the government should intervene to address this industry trend of outsourcing. However, if we look at what happened with manufacturing and China, one wonders if such intervention will ever come, or if the shift is already inevitable.
- hooverd 2y agoEh, cheap Indian outsourcing isn't viewed as a near-peer threat.
- red-iron-pine 2y agodefinitely my experience dealing with them at F500s. Indian mafia running the IT org, and a PITA to get things out of them. personal favorite was that someone from network support ran a script that changed ownership of all of the docker containers and associated configs, outputs, and logs to root. we had pretty clear proof in the logs that a Cog support tech did it, and basically had to escalate to the CTO and get him to threaten a lawsuit to get them to fix it. Also watched caste bulling play out in real time in a cramped meeting room in the RDU Triangle, in NC. Wasn't clear what the strain was until later when a full-timer of Indian extraction explained it to me.
- bufferoverflow 2y agoYup. Currently working at a large multinational. Pretty much 90% of developers and managers are Indian. Very few Americans. Some Chinese and some Slavic. I have never seen such ratios in 20+ years of my career.
- AtlasBarfed 2y agoThe bean counters sure didn't care, this was blatantly obvious even two decades ago. I don't fault the outsourcing companies it's nothing different than what occurs with American consulting outsourcing before offshoring: get the deal signed, get the responsibilities transferred, and milk the cow. The anti nerd bias of american culture means that IT is less respected than even blue collar workers by management. The higher salaries of IT are begrudgingly given. I predict over the next two decades they will collapse to what typical engineers are paid: as in it's more lucrative to be a plumber
- skynr 2y agoWe have a high proportion of onshore on-site Indian employees who are absolutely awesome. However they've gone through the local company's recruitment process so will have been selected for fit. The experience with outsourced resources is significantly different. I build a good rapport with one who talked me through the politics and power plays behind the scenes at their midsize outsourcing arm. Just very different social values to Western orgs. Incredibly hierarchical with no value given to autonomy or independence. Those who want to do well and try really hard frequently get their helmets dented by over zealous managers. Also experienced - ex offshore very often have incredible cvs until you interview and there's no actual experience. Polling the above contact he mentioned that for some offshore orgs promotion is literally time in role, not competency based. My experience, your mileage may vary, and I reiterate those I've worked with on-site have been awesome, generous, funny and very supportive people.
- dang 2y agoWe changed the URL from https://twitter.com/USTechWorkers/status/1843744799607898260 https://twitter.com/USTechWorkers/status/1843744799607898260 to what looks like the article it points to. Submitters: "Please submit the original source. If a post reports on something found on another site, submit the latter." - https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- matrix87 2y agosomething weird on my team is that most of them (around 40) are from the exact same province in india just seems kind of bizarre to me, like deciding to only hire people from Florida for a team in California
- simfree 2y agoIndian communities in the US can often be clanish, and self-segregate to specific areas of a neighborhood or town. You can see this in action on the eastside of Lake Washington, always fun to get glared at for being at the wrong block in Samamish, or the wrong (or sometimes right) condo building in Bellevue. Do not bring a dog! You will get solid stares, does not matter how said dog behaves or what local policy is. Seattle notably legislated against the caste system persisting in the city, but from what I hear it still is a thing stateside. Most of the Indian community lives outside Seattle though.
- odux 2y agoLanguage, region and caste are different things though. Caste is a big problem in India but very rarely a problem for discrimination in the tech/highly educated Indian circles in the US. Caste is sometimes very closely related to “culture” so it may be seen in things like weddings sometimes to though. The Seattle anti caste discrimination law was more political than practically useful. But language is a problem and you will see people speaking the same Indian language group themselves together.
- matrix87 2y agoI'm not really holding any of that against them because moving to a new country with a different culture is hard
- Slava_Propanei 2y ago[dead]
- matrix87 2y agoEdit: And I will say, they've shown me a great deal of hospitality I see a lot of negative feelings in the comments here. If anyone is having negative feelings they should be directed to corporations who have artificially engineered this situation. The people involved are not to blame
- rudnevr 2y agoI worked for Cognizant for a couple of years on multiple engagements, and I'm not Indian. I saw different things, and obviously there was some dynamic around ethnicity, from 'I'll only hire Indians because they work harder' to Indian boss abusing another Indian programmer while excluding me. I was somewhat advanced level, though, maybe that played a role, so for me personally it was an overall OK time. Overall it's good that this conversation eventually happening, I think, it's in everybody's interest.
- binary_slinger 2y agoI was at one point located in Plano, Texas which has a large Indian IT community. When my job search started around eight years ago fresh out of school with a masters degree I was passed up by every IT firm in the area. This is a hard and controversial topic to discuss, and I apologize if anyone find my words here offensive. But the pattern I recognized was if the interviewers were Indian I would not be passing the interview. I have no proof of this. But my Indian peers at my school who applied to the same firms with similar credentials and skill level had little trouble.
- Slava_Propanei 2y ago[dead]