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Boeing whistleblower found dead in US
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- fifteen1506 3y agoSo sad he's dead :( It's infuriating all these untimely deaths.
- kazinator 3y ago[flagged]
- torstenvl 3y ago"Self-inflicted wound"? Obviously the story is still developing but I'm immediately skeptical. EDIT: Also weird that BBC is already memory-holing that it was a gunshot wound. archive.is has the original. https://archive.is/wj0LE https://archive.is/wj0LE
- algorias 3y agoSame. I'm not much for conspiracy theories, but that is very strange wording.
- mpweiher 3y ago[flagged]
- jjk166 3y agoSelf inflicted wound in the middle of several days of scheduled depositions. Just about as suspicious as could be.
- napierzaza 3y ago[dead]
- jongjong 3y agoAgreed. This has red flags all over it. I've been predicting that companies would turn into criminal gangs sooner or later. Corporations can be shielded from liability when this happens. One executive could end up charged with a crime but the company itself can always paint them as a rogue agent who acted independently. IMO, this will keep getting worse. Commodification of scapegoats.
- hughesjj 3y ago> I've been predicting that companies would turn into criminal gangs sooner or later. Always_has_been.gif I mean, nestle still exists, as does the entire financial and energy industries.
- Cheer2171 3y ago> I've been predicting that companies would turn into criminal gangs sooner or later. When have they not? This is literally the entire point of limited liability for hundreds of years. Goes back to the East India Company.
- SAI_Peregrinus 3y agoI've said before that any sufficiently powerful corporation is indistinguishable from a government. The East India company was a good example, they had their own army & fought wars of conquest.
- jongjong 3y ago
- robotnikman 3y agoYep, the timing of his death is just too on point.
- rl3 3y ago>Also weird that BBC is already memory-holing that it was a gunshot wound. Another source backs this up, and seems to have interviewed the man's attorney in the past. [0][1] It's tempting to dismiss foul play on the basis that it's too brazen in the middle of a deposition. However, that's also the height of plausible deniability because cross examinations can get personal and thus emotional. --- I can't help but be reminded of a film quote: "But that's the way it works with corporate murder. Boss gets wind of something, calls in his head of security, who talks to someone, who talks to a friend of someone. Finishes up with an answering machine in a rented office, a couple of sensitive gentlemen in a blue pickup truck. They will never know who ordered the hit." [2] [0] https://www.corporatecrimereporter.com/news/200/boeing-whistleblower-found-dead-in-charleston-after-break-in-depositions/ https://www.corporatecrimereporter.com/news/200/boeing-whist... [1] https://www.corporatecrimereporter.com/news/200/brian-knowles-on-representing-boeing-south-carolina-whistleblowers/ https://www.corporatecrimereporter.com/news/200/brian-knowle... [2] https://www.scripts.com/script/the_constant_gardener_702/17 https://www.scripts.com/script/the_constant_gardener_702/17
- esoterica 3y agoMovies aren’t real dude.
- zenexer 3y agoIn the real world, the security team just handles it directly. https://www.justice.gov/usao-ma/pr/six-former-ebay-employees-charged-aggressive-cyberstalking-campaign-targeting-natick https://www.justice.gov/usao-ma/pr/six-former-ebay-employees... Edit: In all seriousness, I don’t think the situation presented in the aforementioned movie quote is implausible, though I’m inclined to doubt foul play here unless there’s specific evidence to that effect. Depositions can be extraordinarily stressful; compound that with the anxiety of being a whistleblower, and I can see how someone could snap. At the same time, I wouldn’t be surprised to find out that there was foul play.
- esoterica 3y ago[flagged]
- charlie0 3y agoWas it multiple shots?
- nixass 3y ago[flagged]
- earleybird 3y ago[flagged]
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- dredds 3y ago>Also weird that BBC is already memory-holing that it was a gunshot wound. A YT video speculated (wildly one would say) about someone's recent death simply because the cause was not announced by the family as it was under (UK) inquest. In some jurisdictions it is inappropriate (or even illegal) to state or speculate on a cause of death when it is under investigation as a suspected suicide, even just to limit the possibility of copycat or revenge cases: Only since 2016 is it legal (in NZ) to report, broadcast or even post on the internet that a death is a suspected suicide before the coroner releases their findings. AFAIK, posting any details about _the method_ is still not allowed in NZ. This may sound antiquated (and frustrating) in an age of instant news, but jumping to conclusions can have real consequences, at least legally in some edge cases.
- torstenvl 3y agoNo. NZ law is completely irrelevant to a UK news source's reporting on a U.S. death. And the source is the man's attorney. https://www.corporatecrimereporter.com/news/200/boeing-whistleblower-found-dead-in-charleston-after-break-in-depositions/ https://www.corporatecrimereporter.com/news/200/boeing-whist...
- dredds 3y agoIt's a code of conduct of UK reporting even if it occurs outside the UK: "the UK press reporting standards discourage reporting suicide methods"
- Aeolun 3y agoI mean, he could presumably have died from other causes, but a gunshot wound is a gunshot wound.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- robjan 3y agoIn the UK press reporting standards discourage reporting suicide methods https://www.ipso.co.uk/editors-code-of-practice/ https://www.ipso.co.uk/editors-code-of-practice/
- anigbrowl 3y agoIt'll take a while to see if it has made any difference, as this version of the code was only adopted in 2021. Suicide rates in the UK appear to be fairly static over the last 20 years: https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cbp-7749/ https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cbp-...
- hcfman 3y agoRussia => Poison UK => Suicide (Remember the iran nuclear inspector and the guy from mi6 found in a suitecase) Netherlands/Other => Disappearance (Arjen Kamphuis)
- medo-bear 3y agoImagine something similar happened in Russia :)
- notorandit 3y agoI am not going to be skeptical until they tell me exactly how hey got to the "self-inflicted" wound. How can you tell it was self-inflicted? Any witness? Recording? C'mon!
- idw 3y agoIt was a breach of their guidelines to report a method of suicide, so it sounds like they were just fixing that. This is standard in the UK because of evidence showing that reporting methods can be followed by further suicides. https://www.bbc.co.uk/editorialguidelines/guidelines/harm-and-offence/guidelines/ https://www.bbc.co.uk/editorialguidelines/guidelines/harm-an... Suicide, Attempted Suicide, Self-Harm and Eating Disorders 5.3.45 Suicide, attempted suicide and self-harm should be portrayed with sensitivity, whether in drama or in factual content. Factual reporting and fictional portrayal of suicide, attempted suicide and self-harm have the potential to make such actions appear feasible and even reasonable to the vulnerable. Methods of suicide and self-harm must not be included in output except where they are editorially justified and are also justified by the context. We should not include explicit details that would allow a method of suicide to be imitated.
- mateo1 3y agoAll these guidelines are what is making BBC unreadable for me. The language they use is just so artificial. I understand why they do, and how they feel like they have a responsibility to "optimize" language for some metrics, but in my opinion what really matters is the objective reality, not the phrasing. Maybe they could report more on the NHS inability to cope with mental health patients rather than avoid using the word gunshot in a country where gun ownership is so scarce.
- torstenvl 3y agoThere's no definition of "responsible reporting" that involves hiding information from the public to support a policy goal.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- h2odragon 3y ago[flagged]
- ClassyJacket 3y agohttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gary_Webb#Death https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gary_Webb#Death
- keernan 3y agoHe was scheduled to appear for day two of his deposition testimony the morning of his death. Had he died Sat night instead of Sat morning, the transcript of Saturday's testimony could have been read to the jury during trial. Obviously that can't happen now and whatever he was going to say in Saturday's testimony is lost forever.
- tivert 3y ago> the transcript of Saturday's testimony could have been read to the jury during trial. Obviously that can't happen now I'm not so sure: https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/right_to_confront_witness https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/right_to_confront_witness: > In Barber v. Page, 390 U.S. 719 (1968), the Court recognized a common law exception to the Confrontation Clause's requirement when a witness was unavailable and, during previous judicial proceedings, had testified against the same defendant and was subject to cross-examination by that defendant. The Supreme Court reaffirmed this exception in Crawford v. Washington, 541 U.S. 36 (2004), holding that "the Framers would not have allowed admission of testimonial statements of a witness who did not appear at trial unless he was unavailable to testify and the defendant had had a prior opportunity for cross-examination." Further, the Court in Crawford overturned Ohio v. Roberts (above). The article said he was cross-examined by Boeing's attorneys last week and he now unavailable because he's dead, so it seems to be his deposition would fall under this exception.
- manquer 3y agoIt does not apply to dying declarations and statements made under impending death, this is well established in law. [1] Otherwise mob bosses would just pop off every witness and go fully free if it is completely inadmissible . There are limits not everything is admissible however not everything can be thrown away either [1] https://constitution.congress.gov/browse/essay/amdt6-5-1/ALDE_00000944/ https://constitution.congress.gov/browse/essay/amdt6-5-1/ALD...
- qingcharles 3y agoAnd depositions are taken under oath, at least, so it is at least sworn testimony rather than just random conversations or documents that would normally need to be sworn to at trial to lay a foundation. Boeing going to throw all their weight at motions to exclude these transcriptions, though.
- Bender 3y agoI hope the company had no involvement in this. It would be bit futile given such a large audience has seen their employees state they won't fly in the aircraft they build. [1] 3,716,935 views 4 days ago and Blancolirio's assorted incident reports [2] [1] - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q8oCilY4szc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q8oCilY4szc [video][32 mins][john oliver] [2] - https://www.youtube.com/@blancolirio/search?query=boeing https://www.youtube.com/@blancolirio/search?query=boeing
- bandyaboot 3y agoYeah, doing something so drastic in this situation doesn’t make sense. It’s possible that reality is somewhere in the middle. I have a very difficult time believing they would actually off the guy, but it’s not so difficult to believe they might hire some investigators to look for skeletons in his closet. Perhaps they found some. Obviously this is wild speculation and not intended to be a theory—just an example of something short of full-on Tom Clancy.
- redeeman 3y agosome people kill others because they run out of nutella, some kill others to rob $10 from their pockets, some kill them for fun, but its difficult to believe a giant corporation with A LOT to hide would kill a whistleblower?
- bandyaboot 3y agoThose are examples of irrational people doing things without regard to consequences. That’s not particularly relevant to what conditions would likely need to exist for a giant corporation to decide to do something like that. It would not be difficult to believe if this person had unique knowledge that likely would not come to light otherwise. Then I could see a rational (and terrible) person deciding that the benefit is worth the risk. It just wouldn’t make sense in this case. It’s not like this one guy was going to break Boeing substantially more than they’re already broken.
- 3y ago
- Qem 3y agoHe should have done like Snowden. Got out of the country before exposing material. Shouldn't a witness in a high profile case like him been granted some sort of police escort by the court? Guy paid the ultimate price for freedom of speech and informing the public. Wonder if someone will sustain there is no threat to freedom of speech because the lawsuit involved the company where he was employed, not the government. I'm also reminded of Aaron Schartz, as well as the ordeal Steven Donzinger went through against Chevron. Fortunately survived, but had to serve some prison time[1]. [1]. https://www.independent.co.uk/climate-change/news/steven-donziger-interview-texaco-oil-b2446695.html https://www.independent.co.uk/climate-change/news/steven-don...
- jj999 3y agoName a juridiction where he would have been both i)taken in and ii)secure.
- ashconnor 3y agoAirbus HQ
- mjtechguy 3y ago[flagged]
- catchnear4321 3y agohow does one get from the us to france, quickly?
- klyrs 3y agoOn a Bombardier, via Canada?
- catchnear4321 3y agoahhh, just get to quebec, tiré d'affaire.
- 93po 3y agoI imagine this is going to further the terrible safety culture at Boeing
- esoterica 3y ago[flagged]
- tiahura 3y agoThere are exceptions to your observation, see e.g. Ebay, but generally when people flake right before a depo it's because they have something to hide.
- salawat 3y agohttps://marketrealist.com/p/uber-greyball-explained/ https://marketrealist.com/p/uber-greyball-explained/ Or project Greyball with Uber. As a Quality Manager; this would be him going to Church and receiving absolution. They may have ripped him a new one at depo, but we're generally a bunch of stubborn mofos as a rule. This one strikes as smelling very, very, wrong. The company is certainly large enough where I could see somebody playing dirty. Especially since a conviction in the U.S. would be grounds for getting absolutely shredded in other jurisdictions.
- agency 3y agoIrrespective of this specific case, do you honestly believe it is inconceivable one of the largest defense contractors in the world with deep connections to the military and intelligence apparatus would be capable of having an individual murdered if it were sufficiently important to their interests?
- esoterica 3y agoNo, not they are not. The military and intelligence apparatus does not care if Boeing has to pay a fine. They will not carry out an execution at Boeing’s behest just to save them from a lawsuit. Conspiracy theorists love conspiracy theories because they allow them to feel smarter than the “sheeple” that believe the official story. They don’t care if the actual conspiracy theory is wildly implausible and stupid, it’s just too psychological seductive for them. Sorry but couldn’t be me, I am not dumb enough to fall for that cognitive hazard.
- tiahura 3y ago[flagged]
- xtracto 3y agoI think thats part of the conspiracy: you don't directly murder one guy, you show him skeletons you know about him and tell him you will put them out in the public. The rest solves itself.
- tiahura 3y agoIt’s not about intimidating or sending a message, it’s about undermining the credibility of a witness. This happens every day in $10,000 slip fall cases across the country. If someone is making accusations against your client, and they cheat on their wife / don’t pay their taxes / whatever, and you don’t bring that to light so the jury can evaluate their credibility, you’re committing malpractice.
- lupusreal 3y agoThis is what the FBI tried to do to MLK.
- mef 3y agoAnyone know why this isn’t on the front page with 96 pts one hour after submission?
- falsandtru 3y agoHacker News is extremely strongly manipulated. What users see as popularity order is actually the order manipulated to the moderators' liking. https://github.com/minimaxir/hacker-news-undocumented#behaviors https://github.com/minimaxir/hacker-news-undocumented#behavi... I believe this is a good technical article for HN concerning safety culture of engineers, but moderators didn't think so.
- seoulmetro 3y ago[flagged]
- dang 3y agoIt's not a technical article. It's a lurid media topic* about a suspicious-looking alleged suicide with zero information for a substantive discussion, and tons of fuel for sinister speculation. That's not what HN is supposed to be for. However, we can give this one a pass because the ongoing Boeing saga is of interest and there's clearly a community appetite to discuss this development. Edit: even though the thread is terrible, which is just what one would expect from a sensational topic with zero information for a substantive discussion. * Edit 2: I changed the word 'story' to 'topic' because I don't mean to disparage the BBC article itself - anigbrowl's reply is right on that
- anigbrowl 3y agoFlatly untrue. It's a soberly worded recitation of the available facts with multiple caveas; the frenzy of speculation stems from Boeing's increasingly tattered corporate reputation, not the story. This was written to far higher standards than (for example) a story from the Daily Mail or New York Post; I'm astonished that you would characterize this way.
- 2OEH8eoCRo0 3y ago[flagged]
- yifanl 3y agoI don't believe in conspiracies, but killing himself in the hotel parking lot halfway into his disposition is quite noteworthy regardless of the circumstance. It's known that whistleblowers disproportionately suffer from stress and depression [0], for what it's worth. [0] https://www.bmartin.cc/dissent/documents/Lennane_what2.pdf https://www.bmartin.cc/dissent/documents/Lennane_what2.pdf
- algorias 3y agoAhem. The base rate for a healthy person dying in the week or so leading up to their important testimony is tiny. It's reasonably likely (20%+) that this was foul play.
- nozzlegear 3y agoIn an infinite universe, the unlikeliest of events has happened an infinite number of times.
- shrimp_emoji 3y agoAnd, in all of them, each copy of me believes the least likely explanation the least.
- nozzlegear 3y agoSame, which is why I'm disinclined to believe shadowy cabals ordering assassinations when it's more likely he was just under some of the highest pressure and scrutiny of his life.
- d0gsg0w00f 3y agoLike the report that he killed himself due to pressures of the case or the fact that he gave 32 years of his life to a company that's calling him a traitor isn't compelling enough.
- edncy33 3y agoFeels like Michael Crichton's Airframe
- falsandtru 3y agoIs the political safety of the United States on the same level as that of Russia?
- AnimalMuppet 3y agoNo, even if this were murder. If the people investigating Hunter Biden suddenly turned up dead, or the people investigating Trump, and if that happened over and over across several years, then I'd say yes. Oh, and if you could be arrested for a protest.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- KerrAvon 3y agoYou can be arrested for a protest. You can also be shot and killed without consequences for protesting in some scenarios. Whether either of these survive a SCOTUS challenge, not sure, but in the meantime it sure fucking happens. We’re less free in 2024 than we were in 2001. But at least you’re still right about the political assassinations, which is not yet a thing that happens here on an organized basis.
- logicchains 3y agoYou could be shot for protesting in the US well before 2001: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kent_State_shootings https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kent_State_shootings .
- jongjong 3y agoIt's just crazy to think how much things can change. Boeing was once the pinnacle of innovation; a company which achieved something seemingly impossible at commercial scale and then perfected it to an incredible standard. It's just crazy to think that such perfect company could decline to such low standard both on the technical side and ethics side. It looks like a HR problem. They replaced people who are very good at building stuff with people who are very good at politics. But no amount of bullshitting can substitute engineering excellence when it comes to keeping aircraft in the air.
- EasyMark 3y agoTHis isn't an HR problem, it's not an engineering problem, this is a "think about quarterly profits only, bean counting" problem. Engineers need time to do quality work, constantly rushing things for upping the rookie numbers before the end of the quarter is paramount at Boeing these days rather than proper engineering from all the stuff I've seen. Seems like a clown circus of executives over there.
- boppo1 3y ago>people who are very good at building stuff Are there any large companies still focused on this?
- yifanl 3y agoI'm just going to take this story at face value, there's an infinite number of alternate explanations that I'd be powerless to talk about. I've had my own (thankfully brief) moments where I've thought about suicide just from the perception that my coworkers, my bosses, the entire world, just does not care about doing the right thing. Mr Barnett worked for the same company for over three decades and physically watched it stop caring about building airplanes. I know that can take a toll, and the stress of martyring yourself to let everyone else know has to be intense.
- ocdtrekkie 3y agoAnd he not only watched the company fail spectacularly, in several of those cases those failures were connected to deaths, which I imagine he could feel personally responsible for not preventing, even if the corporate machine is really where the responsibility lies.
- salawat 3y agoTable stakes for QA. It would have been worse because he reported and escalated these things just to end up having his department butchered further. I still don't see a snap happening until after the testimony was over.
- hef19898 3y agoThose depositions are extremely stressfull. Add in years if not decades of emotional stress, prior. So yes, that can cause depression and can lead to suicide. Another case where this happened was Therabis Edit: Theranos, obviously (my Pixel 7 keyboard and I won't become close friends any time soon): one of their lead scientists, who very much opposed cheating and their approach, developed a depression because of that and him being completely sidelined. He committed suicide the day before his scheduled depossition in a patent case. Both cases are tragic, as is every suicide. Just because his death is convenient, doesn't mean in it was foul play...
- 3y ago
- richrichie 3y ago[flagged]
- ldjkfkdsjnv 3y ago[flagged]
- mrtesthah 3y agoAnd it's quality and safety which constitute said costs.
- datadrivenangel 3y agoFound dead of apparently self inflicted wounds in their car... Sounds very suspect.
- vannevar 3y agoWith reports of a federal criminal investigation under way, very suspect. Civil judgments and penalties are one thing, the possibility of prison time is a whole different level of motivation.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- throwaway743 3y ago[flagged]
- rokkitmensch 3y ago[flagged]
- asta123 3y ago'wound' singular
- hsuduebc2 3y ago[flagged]
- autoexec 3y agoI'm not saying that Boeing had him assassinated, but I sure wouldn't put it past them. They've already shown themselves to be perfectly willing to sacrifice human lives for increased profits.
- qwertyuiop_ 3y agoIt wouldn't be as direct as if the order came from the boardroom. There are thousands of "stakeholders" bound to lose their gravy train, lobbyists, suppliers, "consultants", military industrial complex. It's easy to for one of these to send a "contractor" to stalk, hold the person's arm and "shoot himself" dead. I am not an investigator but this is very very suspicious. He delivered 2 days of testimony and is about to third one. If someone is suicidal they wouldn't be this motivated to go through the testimony of 2 days and skip the third. Also suspicious is BBC becoming "the owner of the stories" instead of local news outlets.The PR machine is in full swing.
- eastbound 3y agoSo what you’re saying is Boeing has an army of 2000 lobbyists are all ready to kill for financial gain?
- rightbyte 3y agoThere are a lot of shady people involved in the military industry.
- DANmode 3y agoWhy all, when one would do?
- mschuster91 3y agoNo, only one of the thousands needs to be willing to go that far. The power of stochastic terrorism...
- shiroiushi 3y agoNo, he's saying that there's an army of lobbyists that see Boeing's financial health as necessary for their (clients') own. The lobbyists don't work for Boeing. Imagine you had a highly lucrative SMB selling Microsoft services to some government/institutional customers, and some big court case threatened to cause MS serious harm, affecting your ability to sell those MS services. If you're a sociopath, you might want to shoot the star witness.
- up2isomorphism 3y ago"Died from self-inflicted wounds" - Isn't there a word called "suicide" for this thing?
- collinrapp 3y agoNo, not necessarily. At least according to Wikipedia, suicide is the act of _intentionally_ taking one’s own life. [1] It seems that the legal definition, at least in some jurisdictions, aligns. [2] If you find someone has died from self-inflicted wounds, it may be ruled suicide or accident. The colloquial use of suicide may also include accidental suicide, which could introduce confusion. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide [2] https://dictionary.law.com/Default.aspx?selected=2057 https://dictionary.law.com/Default.aspx?selected=2057
- morkalork 3y agoThere's some nasty shades of Karen Silkwood with this story.
- hnthrowaway0328 3y ago[flagged]
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- arcamox 3y agoIs there a pattern? This seems to happen way too often in western corporations. (Here's another example, could give you many more: Suicide of VW whistleblower in 2020: https://www.t-online.de/finanzen/news/unternehmen-verbraucher/id_88436986/vw-abhoeraffaere-ermittler-gehen-bei-todesfall-von-selbstmord-aus.html https://www.t-online.de/finanzen/news/unternehmen-verbrauche... - use Google Translate).
- alphabettsy 3y agoMany many people commit suicide in western countries. That’s the pattern imo. I’m guessing the stress of pointing the finger at the company and people you’ve worked for and with for 30 years is not insignificant.
- EasyMark 3y agoMany many people also commit suicide in eastern countries as well, quite often at much higher rates than in western countries.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- dbrueck 3y agoWhy the 'western' qualifier?
- ListeningPie 3y agoThe emotional strain of being a whistleblower and having your colleagues now see you as the enemy is not something I’ve read about, but it must take a toll. A whistleblower, almost by definition, is a hero to strangers and a villain to those they know and work with. Or he was simply executed like in many corporate espionage movies.
- aurareturn 3y agoI can't imagine that he would go through all this, and then decide it's not worth it anymore at the very end of his testimony.
- asystole 3y agoPeople under extreme mental stress tend not to act rationally.
- MarcoZavala 3y ago[dead]
- lukan 3y agoYeah, some things you can only imagine, if you experience them. Still, people murdered for way less.
- whitepaint 3y agoYet, in this case, aurareturn's comment seems way more plausible than yours.
- cm2187 3y agoDon't know anything about this guy, so just speculating, but I can easily see having a self-destructing behaviour being correlated with becoming a whistleblower since it is usually done at great personal expenses.
- a-french-anon 3y agoSubject of the amazing movie The Insider (1999), I might add for interested people.
- briantakita 3y ago[flagged]
- Dalewyn 3y ago>But a country like China would punish the corruption by Boeing management with death. That's a great incentive to not be corrupt. I've long since come to the conclusion that the reason today's politicians, executives, and others in position of power are so flagrantly corrupt is because they don't risk paying with their lives for their troubles anymore. The feudal age wasn't a great time to live in as a peasant, but you can bet the nobles above you were greatly incentivized to act generally in your (and/or the kingdom's) interests because to do otherwise would have meant their (very vicious) deaths.
- foobarian 3y agoThe nobles of the feudal age are the C-level suite of today. They move around the map conquering lands, and lands come with employees/peasants. Their goal? Squeeze as much value out of the workforce as possible. Except in the medieval version moving wasn't possible, so I think I'll take the modern version :-)
- hnthrowaway0328 3y agoI agree with the first paragraph but not the second. In feudal age the lords could treat their subjects very badly.
- rokkitmensch 3y agoAnd if engaged in treason, absolutely must be successful!
- anomaly_ 3y agoIf you come for the king, you'd best not miss.
- KingOfCoders 3y ago"I hate to say this." Then don't say it.
- falsandtru 3y agoHm, this thread once again slid down the top page at an alarming rate, even though the safety of the environment surrounding engineers is a serious concern of engineers. Hacker News is surprisingly dismissive of user interests and votes. Note that even if it is a suicide, it is still a safety problem of the environment surrounding engineers. Since it is Boeing that pressured him until he committed suicide.
- EasyMark 3y agoHonestly you're probably better off reading threads on reddit about it. The system may not be as elite as HN but it does allow for more attention and free speech IF you're willing to dig through the detritus.
- briantakita 3y agoAre you surprised about the lack of curiosity on this sort of case? When many here are within 2 degrees of the people involved. Most within 3 degrees. It's a small world
- interestica 3y agoNumber of comments and upvotes doesn't suggest lack of curiosity... It's the fact that it got bumped off front page
- briantakita 3y ago> Number of comments and upvotes doesn't suggest lack of curiosity Yes, I agree with you. I was doing double speak. Many things of public interest are nudged "off the front page". Promoting Political Bread & Circuses instead. I think the networks of the Managerial Class are tight. Due to shared interests, values, & upbringing. So I'm not surprised to see the circling of wagons. I'm more surprised that this post was not flagged yet.
- jamiek88 3y ago[flagged]
- charles_f 3y agoIs it me or the "apparent" in the title implies it looks like a suicide but is not conclusively one?
- bitfilped 3y agoI doubt the police investigation is over, and a coroner report certainly isn't done, so there isn't an official cause of death yet.
- rokkitmensch 3y agoCoroners are pretty low-budget compromise targets compared to lizards.
- xvector 3y agoIf you can zero someone about to testify in Congress, you can also coerce a coroner to say whatever you want.
- rolph 3y agocod develops over time, from an enforcement perspective, a rapid assesment of the situation may lead to a level of response based on perceived threat. an experienced or well trained LEO may see a subtle detail indicating involvement, or not of other person, setting the tone for investigation or threat response. an autopsy may turn that around if it ends up that a weapon was held in a position quite unlikely for decedent to achieve. the overarching consideration is a planned murder is not in any way beneficial to boeings situation
- rolph 3y agoa couple of experienced highly muscled guys could use force to make it look that way.
- amatecha 3y agosame deal as saying "alleged", they'll use such wording until something is officially determined or so on.
- 3y ago
- foobarian 3y agoI don't buy the foul play theories. What could this person possibly reveal that is worse that has already come out? They crashed two 737 Max's full of passengers for crying out loud.
- rokkitmensch 3y agoPost truth reality isn't about buying anything, it's about viiiiibes maaaaaan!
- salawat 3y agoNames. Criminal charges require heads to fall on to pierce the corporate veil. He had names. Likely dates too. He had evidence of them committing acts that carry prison terms which would not by any stretch be short. He was the number one threat to everyone at that company at that time, that was complicit in cutting corners.
- aragonite 3y agoI wish there were an aggressively anti-clickbait news outlet that writes headlines explicitly designed to preempt and neutralize potential misunderstandings. Imagine editors try to anticipate all kinds of ways a candidate headline might mislead the reader, and rewrite the headline to discourage those inferences — succinctly if possible, verbosely if necessary. For this particular piece such a outlet might opt for something like: "Ex-Boeing Employee Who Reported Safety Issues in 2019 at South Carolina Facility Dies by Apparent Suicide" or even: "Ex-Boeing Employee Who Reported Safety Issues in 2019 at South Carolina Facility — Distinct from the 737 Max Whistleblower! — Dies by Apparent Suicide" To be clear, I don't find the headline by The Hill ("Key Boeing Whistleblower Found Dead from Apparent Suicide") to be especially misleading or clickbaity. It's perfectly defensible against charges of intentional misleadingness. But I suspect for many readers it is part of the experience of reading this article to have a moment of realization halfway through to the effect of "Ah, so this is not about the 737 Max whistleblower I've recently read about". What a breath of fresh air it'd be to have a news outlet that immediately gives off an impression of honorableness by trying actively and aggressively to avoid misleading its reader by its headlines (rather than focus on how its headlines can be defended from charges of misleadingness)!
- xtracto 3y agohttps://www.boringreport.org/ https://www.boringreport.org/ is actually pretty good at that. I've been reading it for some time. It's LLM generated I think
- aragonite 3y agoWow, thank you! Edit: for those who, like me, missed the HN discussion at the time: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35905437 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35905437
- dmos62 3y agoI have it on my phone too, but its app is just horribly frustrating. I'm back to reading Google News. If you could give me a news feed chstomized for me, with LLM neutered titles and summaries, I might just pay money for that: but that feed would have to be octaves above what Google News has. Think TikTok-level of recommendation quality.
- mise_en_place 3y agoEisenhower warned the American public about the military-industrial complex before he left office. We are reaping the consequences of private/public partnerships and crony capitalism.
- tenlp 3y agoPerhaps the "Self-inflicted wound" refers to the injuries he suffered due to his own reporting on Boeing...
- d--b 3y agoWhat a strange article. - whistleblower dies Blablabla - self inflicted wound Blablabla - he was bound to testify the next day Blablabla - he was found dead in his truck in a parking lot It sounds like the journalist thinks it was murder but can’t write it cause it’s illegal somehow. The result is a piece that almost reads like a satyrical piece from the Onion.
- SilasX 3y agoAnd, like clockwork, it's at the top of the /r/nottheonion sub: https://old.reddit.com/r/nottheonion/comments/1bcfceq/boeing_whistleblower_found_dead_in_us/ https://old.reddit.com/r/nottheonion/comments/1bcfceq/boeing...
- d--b 3y agoHa, I didn't know that subreddit. Thanks
- viraptor 3y agoIt's not illegal to speculate, but it's good journalism not to. They reported on the known facts only and that's great. Can you imagine someone adding "this suspiciously looks like a murder" with nothing to back it? Even shitty tabloids don't do that.
- d--b 3y agoSorry, you're right, I didn't convey what I felt properly. It feels that the journalist is trying way too hard not to make it sound like it was suspicious. So he scatters the facts around the article as if people wouldn't connect the dots.
- concinds 3y ago> It sounds like the journalist thinks it was murder but can’t write it It sounds like a basic and uncontroversial recitation of the facts. People here project their own psychology (and cultural imprints courtesy of Hollywood) onto it, with high cynicism and distrust that extends not just to Boeing but to authority figures in general (police, courts). Otherwise this thread would be about HNers' experience with whistleblowing and suicidal thoughts, which is all the story actually mentions.
- xyst 3y agoOnly time will tell if it truly was suicide or a cover up.
- bone_frequency 3y agoWill it really?
- shiroiushi 3y agoYes, if humans eventually invent a machine that uses wormholes to look back in time to see historical events.
- KingOfCoders 3y agoHas someone numbers about suicides in cars with guns? This looks fishy to me. But perhaps I've just watched too many mafia films.
- coolspot 3y agoSuicide in a car is a “popular” way of doing this because there is less cleaning afterwards. Crime scene cleaning of a room costs like $20k. Bodily fluids go everywhere.
- KingOfCoders 3y agoThanks
- saagarjha 3y agoIs cleaning a car less expensive? I feel like it would be harder, just considering that it's a cramped space that seems difficult to scrub and full of stuff that is not easily washable.
- kuratkull 3y agoI imagine you just scrap the (assuming reasonably priced) car, who would want to use it afterwards?
- t0bia_s 3y agoYou can sell it. Or auction it. You never know who will buy it.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- dotnet00 3y agoI feel like most people would rather just scrap it if they can afford to. Even if someone else were willing to pay a large sum of money for the car, I'd be too weirded out to go sell it.
- blast 3y agoThe timing is suspicious but that doesn't mean it wasn't suicide. If he was determined to kill himself there might be several reasons to do it today. Maybe he wanted to cast suspicion on Boeing. Or maybe he didn't want to testify - could be tons of reasons for that. I have no idea. Just saying the two events could be connected without it being murder.
- rmbyrro 3y ago> Maybe he wanted to cast suspicion on Boeing What he already disclosed has done far more harm than that. And what he could have said would certainly cause even more harm than his silence.
- Bengalilol 3y agoI second that
- blast 3y agoOh yes, it's ridiculously unlikely. Just the point is there are lots of ways for the timing to be not a coincidence, yet the death still a suicide.
- pydry 3y agoIt's every bit as suspicious as Epstein's death or all those people connected to Putin who mysteriously fall out of windows.
- fullshark 3y ago> Maybe he wanted to cast suspicion on Boeing. Ridiculous. Although I agree there's more than one possible, highly disturbing explanation for this.
- grouchomarx 3y ago>Maybe he wanted to cast suspicion on Boeing ?
- chasd00 3y agosuicidal people are, be definition, crazy. It's impossible to put yourself in their shoes. When the switch flips, suicide just seems like the logical solution and is very matter-of-fact. It's impossible to really understand what's going on in a suicidal person's mind at the time. /have some experience here a couple decades back
- qwertyuiop_ 3y agoWell-known Boeing critic and whistleblower John Barnett was found shot to death Saturday in Charleston, South Carolina. According to the BBC, the local coroner’s office said the gunshot wound that killed him was “self inflicted” and that police are investigating. Barnett’s body was found in his truck in a hotel parking lot. He had completed two days of depositions concerning a whistleblower retaliation lawsuit against Boeing. He was found after he failed to show up for his third day of testimony. Boeing told BBC it was saddened by Barnett’s death. https://www.avweb.com/aviation-news/boeing-whistleblower-death-deemed-suicide/ https://www.avweb.com/aviation-news/boeing-whistleblower-dea...
- richrichie 3y agoAvowed Bayesian's usually leave the room the moment they sense a conspiracy tag coming. It is a very narrow, domain specific tool for analysis.
- Der_Einzige 3y agoNotably, statistics has again and again shown that Bayesian statistics is archaic and not useful in actual production systems. Slightly better probability calculations aren’t worth losing most of the stats tools we utilize all the time. This is why Bayesian techniques has precisely zero influence in Generative AI/LLMs
- sampa 3y ago[flagged]
- hef19898 3y agoThe amount of conspiracie flying around in this thread are shocking. Someone committed, as it seems, suicide after years, if not decades, of emotional work related stress. They came forward, publicly, with their concerns. So publicly, that everyone knows who they are, from co-workers over friends and family to the media. That alone adds another ton of stress and pressure. And on top of all of that, they went through a full day of deposition, aka interrogation, and looked at yet, at bare minimum, another day of those. Each single factor mention above can, and did, cause people to commit suicide. And instead of focusing on this, and the fact that a very courageous person with high ethnical standards, is dead (I know that I would not have the courage to come forward the way they did in all likelyhood, and if I did, or didn't, I would be in serious emotional and psychological trouble), the self-proclaimed smart HN crowd is thrwong stuff around like "that's what corporate securits is there for" or "it could have been a government agency". Two things: First, for fucks sake, start showing some compassion, not just here but also on other subjects were someone weaker or more vulnerable suffers. The lack of emotional intelligence is the world into a colder place that already is and has to be. Second, stop this jumping to conclusion behaviour, whether it is concerning on-going investigation or stories like, it onpy leads to very wrong conclussions or out right conspiracy theories. Both are embarrassing and expose a lack of curiosity. And no, just because some of the BS theories being thrown around stick sometines, doesn't mean all do, or that this way of thinking is working. It just measn that if enough theories are thrown to the wall, by sheer volume, some will stick. Just luck. And we should hold ourselves to higher standards around here, especially in cases of human tragedies.
- xvector 3y agoThe man was just about to testify. The timing is what makes this suspicious, not the suicide itself. Let's not be so naive as to imply that these companies and their vested interests would not murder someone to protect a multi-billion dollar business. Shit like this happens all the time.
- hef19898 3y agoAll the time, huh? Not the usual lawyer intimidation, pressure and PI surveillenace, but actual murder? Ok, can you link to cases then? In the US or Europe or some place like this, not Africa or some developing country where western companies run amok at times. And also some recent ones, in the last 20 years or so?
- scyzoryk_xyz 3y agoIs this the one where corporate Tilda Swinton hires contract killers to get rid of the whistleblowers and George Clooney figures it out? edit: Michael Clayton was the title
- wazoox 3y ago"A self-inflicted head wound", uh? Like a strong blow on the back of the head maybe? Or two bullets in the brain? Has he been Epstein'ed?
- sirwhinesalot 3y agoSuicide by 3 shotguns blasts to the back of the head[1]. Many such cases with key witnesses. [1] not actually what happened, but might as well have been.
- kome 3y agoI always check whether my flight is on a Boeing and tend to avoid them—better safe than sorry! Fortunately, in Europe, most carriers primarily use Airbus, which simplifies things. Essentially, it boils down to avoiding Ryanair, and there are plenty of other good reasons for avoiding Ryanair.
- user90131313 3y agoMy favorite thing to avoid Ryanair is, despit being most used in Europe, they never had a single deadly crash. not even once. So it's great reason to avoid actually. too safe? I prefer less safe airlines like germanwings? or maybe any other with actual crash history. Also some leg room is more important than my safety. you know?
- gorbachev 3y agoRegardless of whether there was foul play or not, it's looking pretty bad for Boeing. They, or someone else with a stake of protecting the company, killed someone, or they made someone so despaired he saw no other way than to kill himself.
- rootusrootus 3y ago> they made someone so despaired he saw no other way than to kill himself. Give the man some agency. If he chose to end his own life, that was his decision alone. And it may be entirely unrelated to Boeing. Maybe he would have done it anyway at this point in his life.
- baja_blast 3y ago>Maybe he would have done it anyway at this point in his life. You'd think after he was done with hearings, something he was been advocating and trying to have happen since 2017. Why would he do Boeing a favor and kill himself before he could inflict further damage to the company?
- andrei_says_ 3y agoInflict damage or have the company wake up to its duty to safety and realign with its original intentions? I see whistleblowing as a call to integrity and healing, not an act of personal retribution.
- salawat 3y agoRegardless, as a practitioner in the Quality field, I find the timing exceedingly suspect. Even if Boeing did rip him a new one in deposition, (which 32 years of employment and a documentation heavy culture more than equips a legal department to do) you don't close the ticket until it's resolved. He may have intended to do this all along; but not before all the dirty laundry got aired. There is no way that any of this doesn't smell to high heaven. Not with a Federal criminal probe in the wind.
- tomohawk 3y agoWhether it was actually a suicide or murder, this (suing a large organization) is not the kind of thing an individual should take on alone. We are fragile. We can hurt ourselves, and others can hurt us. Without a companion keeping him company and supporting him, either path to harm is too easy.
- rmbyrro 3y agoIs there a flight search service that allows filtering out Boeing planes?
- gizzlon 3y agoyes, the K.. something. Mentioned in one of the latest Last Week Tonight episodes
- defrost 3y agohttps://www.kayak.com.au/flights https://www.kayak.com.au/flights Might need an account to access the filter, but that was the one shown.
- rmbyrro 3y agoThanks a lot! I hope Boeing goes bankrupt and a more careful competitor buys out their assets.
- paulmd 3y agothe USG will never allow that to happen. boeing itself is both a significant hard-power (military contractor) and soft-power (export authorizations provide a national bargaining chip, impact on domestic economy, etc) asset for the united states. it is like intel in a lot of ways: sure, they're massive fuckups but there simply is not any chance that the US allows one of only three leading-edge fab companies to go under. As much as things are going to suck for a while, and especially as much as things could suck for individual employees... at the end of the day the fab side is not going to go under and the USG will shovel cash into the furnace to make sure of it. It is like Boeing - think of it as "buying at a discount, for an indeterminate future time", because the value cannot ever go to zero. And even on the IP side the ownership of x86 and the x86 license is a significant soft-power asset for the US. Having everyone on the planet able to implement their own ARM cores is not really a great thing, when you could instead use it as leverage (like we do with ASML's machines).
- RobotToaster 3y ago[flagged]
- alluro2 3y agoEven if it was a suicide, that still doesn't mean it was self-motivated. People who care enough to be whistleblowers, would likely care enough about wellbeing of their family or other people - enough to sacrifice themselves once again under sufficient threats and pressure. Or, even more likely, end things not because directly being requested to, but because of having no other way to NOT be forced to back out and cower at the very end, and betray themselves and other people. All of which is unfortunately making it almost trivial for the adversary to steer things into that direction.
- FireBeyond 3y agoGranted, a movie, but something that portrays this well is The Insider (about big tobacco). Choice quotes: > Mike Wallace: Who are these people? > Lowell Bergman: Ordinary people under extraordinary pressure, Mike. What the hell do you expect? Grace and consistency? And: > Lowell Bergman: I fought for you and I still fight for you! > Jeffrey Wigand: You fought for me? You manipulated me! Into where I am now - staring at the Brown & Williamson building, it's all dark except for the tenth floor. That's the legal department, that's where they fuck with my life! > Lowell Bergman: Jeffrey, where are you going with this? Where are you going? (Pause) You are important to a lot of people, Jeffrey. You think about that, and you think about them.
- bookofjoe 3y ago"Silkwood" https://youtu.be/iNyrSR5JGh8?si=pzqfoeC5g_Nm5-cz https://youtu.be/iNyrSR5JGh8?si=pzqfoeC5g_Nm5-cz
- kiicia 3y agoWas this suicide by jumping out of window, like all of high profile suicides in russia?
- kube-system 3y ago> https://www.npr.org/2024/03/12/1238033573/boeing-whistleblower-john-barnett-dead https://www.npr.org/2024/03/12/1238033573/boeing-whistleblow... His family doesn't believe so: > The family says Barnett's health declined because of the stresses of taking a stand against his longtime employer. > "He was suffering from PTSD and anxiety attacks as a result of being subjected to the hostile work environment at Boeing," they said, "which we believe led to his death."
- elzbardico 3y agoWhen “Death by MBA” takes an unexpectedly sinister meaning.
- S_A_P 3y agoWhat I don’t understand is how does Boeing expect to make the issues go away? Covering up the problems just kicks the can down the road. They still have shoddy planes out in the world. Is quarterly performance now more important than not having planes fall out of the sky somewhere later on? I guess I’m naive here.
- dfxm12 3y agoWhistleblowers dying in suspicious circumstances is more about sending a message to potential future whistleblowers than anything else.
- goku12 3y agoThe NTSB is bearing down on Boeing to give up the names of the staff that worked on the Alaska Airlines aircraft whose door plug blew out. At this rate, Boeing wont have to worry about whistleblowers. The investigation alone will be enough to open that can of worms.
- ClumsyPilot 3y agoI will believe it when I see it, can’t recall the last time a major executive went to prison
- ahartman00 3y ago"VW executive given the maximum prison sentence for his role in Dieselgate" https://www.theverge.com/2017/12/6/16743308/volkswagen-oliver-schmidt-sentence-emissions-scandal-prison https://www.theverge.com/2017/12/6/16743308/volkswagen-olive...
- fullshark 3y agoBoeing isn't a person, it's a collection of individuals all trying to further their career. That's another executive's problem, their job is just to maximize their career earnings / potential while at boeing and then jump ship when the timing makes sense to.
- bastard_op 3y agoAhh, so this is how you protect government-endorsed monopolies worth trillions - shoot the messenger, literally. Now this is getting better than television drama and intrigue!
- tibbydudeza 3y agoHer cared too much and clearly it was too much to bear. I wonder how many friendships from former Boeing colleagues he lost because of this.
- lofaszvanitt 3y agoWell, I flew once on a 787 Dreamliner and we had to wait around 2 hours, because restarting a system, waiting for experts to arrive, took that much time. At least that was what the pilot told us.
- vinay_ys 3y agoWhy does a whistleblower need to be identified? Why can't it be an anonymous tip to the regulator, who then uses the tip during audits to dig deeper and get to the truth? If they can't get to the truth even after being provided a tip, then their audit process is too broken? This whole business of non-anonymous whistleblower has too much power-imbalance and always seems to end badly for the individual.
- jbuhbjlnjbn 3y agoThe universal answer as to why (there is no fair, working system implemented) is, as usual, 'cui bono?' Any strategy to make whistleblowing power-balanced is by proxy heavily undermined by all forces that do not want it. Those forces, big corporations and their third-party henchmen, have heavy financial interests to bring down any just way of whistleblowing. They have a lot more money, time, manpower, influence and corrupt people who execute the dirty work. To have incorruptible lawmakers lay the ground work is only the first step. Then the laws have to pass in their original intention, ie. waterproof wording without loopholes. Any unintentional loopholes have to be identified and fixed. Then the law has to uphold to "accidental" mistakes, misinterpretation and misrepresentation, official or secret changes, additional laws that reverse them, ....
- shadowgovt 3y agoSometimes anonymous is sufficient. But if the regulator is building a legal case in the US against a company and the only evidence they have is what the whistleblower provides, right to face one's accuser (a right we do not give up lightly) demands that the whistleblower be named.
- vinay_ys 3y agoYeah, for case against human individuals that standard is absolutely essential. But for case against corporate entities that are already under periodic regulatory audits, that shouldn't be required. Then, within that non-compliant corporate, if there are individuals who committed the crime (criminal negligence, intentional malpractice etc) that lead to non-compliance, then to prosecute such individuals, they would need further evidence etc. But at least, the bad airplanes won't make it to airlines, just with anonymous tips.
- kube-system 3y agoA piece of information in this article which is not in that article: > The family says Barnett's health declined because of the stresses of taking a stand against his longtime employer. > "He was suffering from PTSD and anxiety attacks as a result of being subjected to the hostile work environment at Boeing," they said, "which we believe led to his death."
- lawn 3y agoDriving someone to suicide is also a direct cause of death, and should be treated as such.
- golergka 3y agoBeing direct cause of death is treated very differently based on mens rea, or intent. Assassinating somebody and causing a death by accident or by negligence carries very different penalties. Being a cause of something and being guilty of it are different things.
- kube-system 3y agoIt is certainly a bad thing, but I think it is an important note given the conspiratorial tone on some of the comments in that other thread.
- unethical_ban 3y agoInstagram would be shut down if we knew how many teens commit self harm as a direct result of it.
- trilbyglens 3y agoAre we arguing that it shouldn't be?
- HanClinto 3y agoGreat callout, thank you!
- 3y ago
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- treebeard901 3y agoChange this to Russia and what is your first thought? Another mysterious death... In a way it's better to indirectly choke a whistleblower to the point of death than to have to make them shoot themseleves twice in the back of the head on throw themselves off a skyscraper. That sort of thing.
- cypherg 3y agozero evidence of foul play but, who needs evidence...