13 ms·

At this company, we are family

610 points by dharmit 3y ago

AdmiralAsshat 3y ago
"Now kids, I know we made more money than we did last year, but we didn't make as much more money this year as we did more money over the previous year. And so, unfortunately, we had to kick Grandpa to the curb."
FrustratedMonky 3y ago
It is a joke, and funny. But not entirely sure this is un-realistic in todays world. or "As you know, Grandma has Long Covid. With her reduced efficiency, and diminishing ROI, tough choices have to be made" > Edit. Not sure why the negative feedback. We all know this is satire and a joke right?
- mynameisvlad 3y ago
  I think that's generally the point of targeted satire. You've seen the real thing (from companies, in this case) so many times that it feels like it could be real. It's the basis for sites like The Onion and Beaverton.
  - FrustratedMonky 3y ago
    I know it is satire. I'm saying it might be even more dire, that in todays world, and limited access to health care, families might increasingly put kids up for adoptions. And of course, the cross link to corporate satire makes it more funny and sad.
  - rightbyte 3y ago
    Ye messages from some companies are best described as psychotic. I got this feeling that the inner circle on many companies are like sects, but I have never dwelt on those my self.
- gabereiser 3y ago
  lol, to the detriment of employment discrimination laws banning you from firing an employee due to medical reasons… funny but there are some companies I know that operate this way.
- legitster 3y ago
  I mean, there are a lot less far-fetched examples. I mean, I left home at 17 for economic reasons. And if you think of all of the people who have disowned or been disowned by their own family it's pretty common.
bashinator 3y ago
A different take on the same joke: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gnWutAm4En4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gnWutAm4En4
froggertoaster 3y ago
Mildly amusing, and yes - the whole "this company is a family" schtick is overplayed by companies. I never say that at my company - instead the employees often say it back to me, which I feel is much more culturally "real" than me saying it. At one company party, the employees were going around the room telling me how nice it was to work for me (which is very kind of them). The last guy sheepishly shrugged and said, "I don't want to be standoffish but I felt this way at my last company, and they let me go. This is just a job to me." I felt like this is overall the most healthy attitude to have when thinking about work, and frankly to hear it out loud was refreshing. I love that kind of honesty.
- usrusr 3y ago
  At least it's not the reverse: a much darker story would be one about a company where employment was tied to shared procreation.
- JohnFen 3y ago
  > instead the employees often say it back to me, which I feel is much more culturally "real" than me saying it. It is! My problem is when companies feel the need to say it. If it's actually true, they wouldn't have to.
me_jumper 3y ago
Gosh, I hate “we are a family” companies so much.
- mikrl 3y ago
  Best to always ask which family? Supportive, abusive, dysfunctional, a mafia with constant internal power struggles…
  - makr17 3y ago
    Manson?
- intothemild 3y ago
  As someone who's autistic, these kinds of companies are very difficult for me. Usually the "we're family" companies are also the "let's have a social event constantly", or return to the office days are also just filled with socializing. I get it.. some people really enjoy that, but that's not everyone. It feels like it's by design to exclude other kinds of people who don't enjoy a hyper social environment.
  - Brusco_RF 3y ago
    I don't think company-sponsored social events are designed to exclude non-social types, they're just for the benefit of social employees. Of course, this is coming from someone who really enjoys drinking on the company dime
    - notaustinpowers 3y ago
      Typically not, but they absolutely feed into the higher-ups perception of you. I worked at a company an hour away from my home. So anytime we had our monthly post-work happy hour, I'd politely decline and go home. Especially as I know they'll be out until 10pm. During one of my reviews it was mentioned that it's disappointing I don't attend the happy hours as that's when the team is able to connect and strengthen our bonds with each other. Wasn't surprised I was let go just a few weeks later after I declined the next happy hour.
PeterStuer 3y ago
The 'values' and 'we/us' scam is how we get the younguns to donate to the 'our' cause.
VimER 3y ago
Run when you see companies call employees "family". That's how exploitation works.
naillo 3y ago
Nothing more like a family than the conditional love of a company.
starkparker 3y ago
The only thing missing is a stupid name, like "as a Smithee" or "as a Smithonaut" or something.
- WesolyKubeczek 3y ago
  Since you're fired, you ain't no Smithonaut no more
Tommah 3y ago
Don't go into business with family!
jylam 3y ago
I especially like the very American "I ask that you refrain from discussing your termination with any social contacts made through your membership in the family [...] Failure to comply may result in your severance being terminated early or withheld entirely." In (most of ?) Europe, this severance is law and not debatable (as discovered by Musk recently), so this sentence would be outright illegal. You can talk about your salary with anyone you want, discuss it with your colleagues, that's even mandatory for mass-layoffs (through unions and/or elected representatives). You should fight for some more rights, sometime <3
- systemvoltage 3y ago
  Tbh, I prefer the American style (both as someone who has worked as a employee and someone who has employed). I also think this type of European mentality is the reason for its stagnation. Constant regulation that saps the energy out of amazing talent in Europe.
- foobarian 3y ago
  Would that sentence in itself be illegal? Or just if the promised action is performed?
  - jylam 3y ago
    For a company to threaten to do this.
- chaosharmonic 3y ago
  That would be pretty suspect here too now, actually [0] [0] https://www.americanbar.org/groups/labor_law/publications/labor_employment_law_news/spring-2023/nlrb-non-disparagement-confidentiality-provisions/ https://www.americanbar.org/groups/labor_law/publications/la...
- FredPret 3y ago
  As you so sarcastically point out, Americans give up many employment rights such as these. But it's not a one-way street. Being easier to fire makes American employees easier to hire, which is at least in part responsible for much higher pay in the USA compared to employee havens such as Europe. Furthermore, Americans tend to pay less tax. This isn't usually thought of as an employee rights issue, but in my mind, keeping more of your money = stronger property rights
sashank_1509 3y ago
The problem with this and many companies trying to be family etc, is that they completely misunderstand what a family is. Most think a family is a group where people love each other and care for each other. This is wrong, love and affections are symptoms of a healthy family, you can love and care for your friends, you don’t have a family with them. You can actually not really like spending time with many people in your family, but you are still a part of a functioning family (many such cases). In extreme dysfunction, individuals in a family face abuse but for all our intuition they still are a part of a family until the state intervenes. To this one might say a family is then bonds that occur due to blood relations between its members. This again is a symptom, children in an adoptive family still constitute a family. So what exactly is a family? A family is a binding contract where individuals agree to stay together regardless of the circumstances. In the past this contract was enforced to death out of necessity, now this contract is enforced out of necessity till the child becomes 18 generally. There may be hatred, sickness, or a litany of other disturbances but the individuals still stick by each other. This by definition is something a company cannot recreate (without coming awfully close to slavery), and thus it is hopeless for a company to try to aim to be your family. You can leave when you want and they can let you go when they want. That simply is not the same bond as a family.
- bradleyjg 3y ago
  Adult family relationships have historically been culturally mandatory and unseverable but that’s increasingly not the case in the US. Cultural messages that use therapy-speak, if not necessarily promulgated by actual therapists, encourages more and more atomization. Anyone that is annoying, disagreeable, or who has the wrong ideology is labeled “toxic” and people are encouraged to cut them out of their lives. This includes parents, siblings, spouses—of course an uncle or cousin is entirely disposable.
  - episiarch 3y ago
    I have been intentionally toxic to my family for years, and only recently succeeded in having them cut me out of their lives. The "unseverable" bonds of family have caused a litany of mental and physical problems for me my entire life. It's only since my "toxic" behavior finally exhausted their fidelity that I've begun to feel like myself.
Arisaka1 3y ago
My first job was with a "we are a family" company, they used stupid names for the employees internally but also in the job post, together with an emoji spam that couldn't say "how you do fellow kids?" any harder, ask to "see yourself like an entrepreneur" and "be the leader of your own ideas" obviously taking far less than the actual company owners. After a while I had to resign due to mental health problem manifesting as depression and burnout to the point where I couldn't even enjoy my favorite video games. I started therapy which hasn't been going as well as I would like but that's another subject. A month ago I talked to a colleague to see how they're doing. He informed me that another guy left 1 week after I did, but the best part is how he told me that "unlike you at least he gave a 2 week notice". To this day I still wonder if I was really the one unprofessional and that I should just force myself to "work". And I use quotes because I don't know how anyone would expect someone who literally have to force himself to get up from the bed and brush his teeth to be productive. I'm not the kind of person who sees himself as unprofessional and if I had no health problems interrupting my daily life I'd have no issues upholding the 2 week notice. Turns out there is such a thing as a toxic family.
- hirako2000 3y ago
  Some employers like to "adopt" candidates and brainwash them to them bond to the organisation. Of course that's just smoke and as time goes it takes a toll on mental health, way before things have become clear that your only family is your kin.
  - BizarroLand 3y ago
    Well, times have changed, and vampires have changed too. Instead of ravenously draining the life from your body and swallowing your final screams like pez, we've taken a more egalitarian approach of slowly crushing the life out of thousands of people simultaneously, but also giving them time to recover so we can get as much delicious pain juice as possible.
- randomuser23423 3y ago
  > To this day I still wonder if I was really the one unprofessional As someone who has been in a similar place, I wouldn't think this would be any less professional than if you got in an auto accident, had to be bed-bound for several months, the company couldn't let you work remotely and you had to leave. Depression's a bitch, it makes you want to not seek out care and makes you more likely to interpret anything in the most negative way. Try to not be too hard on yourself for how you had to handle yourself, for all you know those two extra weeks could have caused you to need to be hospitalized or slowed down treatment.
JohnFen 3y ago
This is beautiful. Many years ago, I learned that "we are a family here" is a red-flag phrase that is indicative of that being a poor place to work.
xyzelement 3y ago
This is well written and I agree that family is a very imperfect analogy for a working relationship. At the same time, some work situations are more or less family-like and it still pays to look for the "more." I've been lucky that 4 companies I've worked at in my life so far have been very "employee forward" - creating scenarios of employee growth and engagement (vs putting employees in the seat of powerless cogs). All 4 companies have had a layoff of some sort for various reasons (business line shutdown, covid business hit, interest rate hit, grew too fast - respectively) and I have been affected by one of the layoffs (the other one, I left right before employees were bought out) but I am still happy to have worked there vs anywhere else because of these factors. "Family" doesn't mean employing you past the point it makes sense, it's more about how you're related to when you're here. Are you encouraged to grow, to make connections, are you paid well, does the company try to give you good benefits, etc. You want a place that does all of that. You don't have to call it "family" - but it's a totally different vibe from a sweatshop.
- sillysaurusx 3y ago
  So creepy. It’s an employment contract, nothing more.
  - xyzelement 3y ago
    Sorry but you are really missing the point in my experience. I'll give you a non-tech example. We had a great nanny for our son. She went above and beyond, treating him like a grandson. We went above and beyond for her (max flexibility, paying her days when she couldn't work, lots of bonuses and gifts, etc.) Both of us exceeded the "employment contract" - gave more than we had to and we both came out ahead. That only worked because we were both willing to go beyond. What's the point? We treated each other "like family" even though it was a work situation. When our son didn't need a nanny anymore, it didn't make sense for us to work together (so in a way, she was laid off although in reality we found her another gig) but that didn't take away from the quality of our relationship while it lasted. This is directly analogous to employment dynamics I've had at work for 20 years now. You may find that "creepy" but I also suspect you are oblivious to what the upside can be like.
Joel_Mckay 3y ago
Actually, having integrity usually means being clear with people about budgetary decisions. The manipulative games just makes a firm look like its run by a cult of cons. Talent cutbacks are a loss of invested resources, and signals a failure to predict market trends. Sure it can also bump a laggard stock short-term, but ultimately signals other internal structural issues. Good luck, =)
- kridsdale3 3y ago
  I'm sure the same-y ness of the language everyone uses is the result of years of academic study in to how to frame things in a way that minimizes the immediate anger in the aggrieved population to minimize things like Going Postal, or sabotage. Of course they don't care about your feelings. As soon as someone is laid off they become a tremendous liability until they are out the door.
  - Joel_Mckay 3y ago
    Actually, administrative privileges, email redirection, and building access revocation is often done prior to termination notice on Fridays. This is also why layoffs during vacation windows and on remote sites is more common in IT. Giving people time to deal with the emotional aspect is important. As exposing a vulnerable backbone to those motivated with grievances is unwise. Recall, 93% of breaches are internal, and proprietary assets tend to leak with layoffs. It is never an easy task, but it can be done respectfully. =)
Amorymeltzer 3y ago
It's coming from a different topic, but I like a relevant quote from (the excellent) Dahlia Lithwick on her podcast Amicus (<https://overcast.fm/+Don0hUpKc https://overcast.fm/+Don0hUpKc>): >Being in a family relationship at work never redounds to the benefit of the children
GuB-42 3y ago
I have seen reports of how things go in "old money" families. It doesn't look at all like the idea we make of families. They have access to vast amounts of resources, but family members don't have free access, far from it. There is council that decides how the funds are allocated, and when family members need some, they need to pitch how they are going to use it, and the expected returns. And if some family members are deemed unworthy, or don't follow some rules they can get expelled and lose access to the familial wealth. So maybe that's what companies mean by "we are family". Or more likely, it is a combination of the perspectives of the modest families with the warmth of the wealthy ones.
- marklar423 3y ago
  That sounds fascinating, a whole world I know nothing about. Would you mind pointing me at where I could read more?
  - dwmbt 3y ago
    an heir to the Johnson & Johnson fortune filmed a documentary full of weird dynamics like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HmlX3fLQrEc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HmlX3fLQrEc
  - daveguy 3y ago
    This isn't a way to actually read and learn about it, but if you want to see these dynamics taken to hilarious absurds, then you should watch Righteous Gemstones from HBO (Max).
- e_i_pi_2 3y ago
  At that point I'd think the general opinion is that they're operating as a company _instead of_ a family. Pitching investment ideas and getting cut off from support doesn't sound like a family. I think this is just something you kinda need to do with that much wealth, but I don't think it's an example of how any average family operates
- yCombLinks 3y ago
  I'll vouch for similar experiences. My girlfriend was an executive assistant for multiple extremely wealthy people and saw these types of dynamics.
hypeit 3y ago
[dead]
tamimio 3y ago
Companies with these terms in job postings are usually a red flag, but don’t be too judgmental: >We are family! No boundaries, underpaid, nepotism, etc. >Fast paced working environment! Mostly toxic environment. >Attention to details! “Big boss” will scream at you for silly things. >Will require working overtime if needed! Self explanatory. >Fun loving, company culture activities, etc. Your typical kindergarten office activities, you can’t refuse either. I will also add this but not always the case >open office style Yeah, nope!
- npteljes 3y ago
  >open office style "Loud panopticum"
- 5350-uiop-1130 3y ago
  > you can’t refuse either i sure as hell can, have and will.
ketchupdebugger 3y ago
Author forgot 'I take full responsibility'
jedberg 3y ago
This is why I always liked Netflix's outlook (both stated and practiced): We are a sports team, not a family. Perform well and you will be paid well, perform poorly and you will get a nice check to go elsewhere. And sometimes you might perform really well but we just don't need someone with your skills anymore, so we'll still give you nice check to go elsewhere, and that isn't a reflection on your abilities.
- codingdave 3y ago
  I worked for someone who liked that, too, and after leaving Netflix, he carried it over into a new startup. It was not as great of an experience for any of us (including that founder) as it may sound. Years later, and we still talk amongst ourselves about how weird of an environment it created. Basically, that outlook sounds great on paper, but is not so great to actually live.
  - jedberg 3y ago
    I lived it for four years and loved every second of it, but I will be the first to tell you that it's not for everyone. I can also see how it would be hard to carry over into a startup, because the entire culture rests on the idea that you can pay people top of market to be there, that they don't have to worry a lot about budgets, and that you can afford to give people big checks when they leave.
    - yelling_cat 3y ago
      Yeah, paying high performers big money to leave over skills mismatches makes sense for a FAANG but would be suicidal for a startup.
  - hintymad 3y ago
    A great culture is really hard to reproduce because it depends on the ability of the CEO. The CEO needs to properly evaluate the performance of his team, and reward or punish them fairly to demonstrate the culture. In the meantime, the CEO needs to find the likeminded people to uphold the culture. In the end, culture is not a plaque on the wall but how the company rewards and punishes employees at every level. A simple example. Netflix promotes Freedom and Responsibility. Their engineers seemingly had freedom to choose their own systems to build with their own designs at their own pace. The company's guideline to their managers used to be "All that a manager does is to set context". But really? How can the leaders avoid catastrophic failures? How can the leaders keep their orgs' schedules and promises? How can the leaders draw the line between empowering and micro-management in such environment? It's not there is a runbook. And things do fail and sometimes someone do take the fall. Then who? How much? How do the leaders do it to avoid sink the culture?
hintymad 3y ago
I thought after Netflix's culture deck and Reed Hoffman's book Alliance, it would be pretty clear that a company is not a family. It could an alliance, it could be a professional sports team, or it could be some business entity, but definitely not a family. I particularly like the concept of alliance, as it reflects the reality. Well, I guess the memo is not as well known as I thought.
- penguin_booze 3y ago
  I don't recall where I heard it, but Netflix's own wording were "we're not a family; we're a team".
andrewstuart 3y ago
Snark of the finest quality.
KingShabibo 3y ago
[flagged]
EdwardDiego 3y ago
Companies are families like the Mafia is families.
Aurornis 3y ago
When I was young I worked at a company that said things like "we are family" and kind of meant it. It wasn't really a good thing unless you were a low performer. We had some people who were hired into jobs they couldn't do well, but they got to keep those jobs because it was like their role in the family. People basically never got fired, including the couple guys in the corner who barely did any work but had been there forever. When money was tight, they didn't do layoffs. They just cut everyone's compensation by the same percentages. Including those people who didn't do much work, because we can't fire family. Modern companies avoid this phrase because it has become so toxic that nobody wants to be associated with it. It's a holdover from old school management who speak in boilerplate platitudes like "fast paced environment" that don't mean anything.
- RajT88 3y ago
  I contracted at a company once which operated like a family. Once you got hired, it was really difficult to get fired. So much so, most people there hadn't heard about anyone ever getting fired. Eventually, someone heard through the grapevine what a firing offense was: Getting caught having sex on the company campus with a coworker. But! The first time was a warning. That company had soooo much money to burn. Lots of people did not like to work, they just kind of screwed around all day. Family members of the founders got to use the private jets (of which there was a fleet of a dozen) to do whatever they liked. I won't name names, but the company name rhymed with "Spamway".
  - gota 3y ago
    I understand OP is beeing cheeky, yes? But I don't know company he is referring to If anyone could reply to this with the answer I'd appreciate it
    - pirates 3y ago
      my guess is Amway
      - RajT88 3y ago
wintogreen74 3y ago
Disregarding the biological aspects, I think the problem is "families" don't care about people, it's a group of individuals who, through deeply caring about each other, create this thing we've labelled a family. I've definitely had glimpses of this with some work relationships, but it had nothing to do with the company.
poulsbohemian 3y ago
Had someone try to recruit me last week with the phrase “it’s like a family.” Kids… if you hear this phrase, run away. Likewise, if anyone ever calls you a “company man” consider whether it’s a similar ploy to manipulate your emotions.
fallingfrog 3y ago
I love reading the bizarre screeds that companies put on their websites as a mission statement. Once I saw a company website shouting that they had a “relentless obsession with customer satisfaction.” I was like, take a deep breath Bob. You’re gonna burst a blood vessel.
speby 3y ago
The whole premise of comparing a company to a family is not only flawed. It's just straight up incorrect/wrong. Very little about companies and the way they run and operate looks remotely like a family.
wintorez 3y ago
This reminded me of a sketch made by Studio C: https://youtu.be/EmY2b-i-NpE https://youtu.be/EmY2b-i-NpE
EchoReflection 3y ago
several years ago I became an "ultra high net worth individual" (through unexpected events involving a car accident and an inept (but very large) insurance company, and with the help of my closest family members I/we decided (for legal reasons) what was to be done with my wealth in the event of my death. Deciding which family members (I have a pretty big family, if I count aunts, uncles, cousins, but only two grandparents left) to whom I would want to leave what amounts of that wealth was very surreal. Kind of felt like putting monetary values on family, which I guess in a sense it literally was.

610 points by dharmit 3y ago

"Now kids, I know we made more money than we did last year, but we didn't make as much more money this year as we did more money over the previous year. And so, unfortunately, we had to kick Grandpa to the curb."

FrustratedMonky 3y ago

It is a joke, and funny. But not entirely sure this is un-realistic in todays world. or "As you know, Grandma has Long Covid. With her reduced efficiency, and diminishing ROI, tough choices have to be made" > Edit. Not sure why the negative feedback. We all know this is satire and a joke right?

mynameisvlad 3y ago
I think that's generally the point of targeted satire. You've seen the real thing (from companies, in this case) so many times that it feels like it could be real. It's the basis for sites like The Onion and Beaverton.
- FrustratedMonky 3y ago
  I know it is satire. I'm saying it might be even more dire, that in todays world, and limited access to health care, families might increasingly put kids up for adoptions. And of course, the cross link to corporate satire makes it more funny and sad.
- rightbyte 3y ago
  Ye messages from some companies are best described as psychotic. I got this feeling that the inner circle on many companies are like sects, but I have never dwelt on those my self.
gabereiser 3y ago
lol, to the detriment of employment discrimination laws banning you from firing an employee due to medical reasons… funny but there are some companies I know that operate this way.
legitster 3y ago
I mean, there are a lot less far-fetched examples. I mean, I left home at 17 for economic reasons. And if you think of all of the people who have disowned or been disowned by their own family it's pretty common.

bashinator 3y ago

A different take on the same joke: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gnWutAm4En4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gnWutAm4En4

froggertoaster 3y ago

Mildly amusing, and yes - the whole "this company is a family" schtick is overplayed by companies. I never say that at my company - instead the employees often say it back to me, which I feel is much more culturally "real" than me saying it. At one company party, the employees were going around the room telling me how nice it was to work for me (which is very kind of them). The last guy sheepishly shrugged and said, "I don't want to be standoffish but I felt this way at my last company, and they let me go. This is just a job to me." I felt like this is overall the most healthy attitude to have when thinking about work, and frankly to hear it out loud was refreshing. I love that kind of honesty.

usrusr 3y ago
At least it's not the reverse: a much darker story would be one about a company where employment was tied to shared procreation.
JohnFen 3y ago
> instead the employees often say it back to me, which I feel is much more culturally "real" than me saying it. It is! My problem is when companies feel the need to say it. If it's actually true, they wouldn't have to.

me_jumper 3y ago

Gosh, I hate “we are a family” companies so much.

mikrl 3y ago
Best to always ask which family? Supportive, abusive, dysfunctional, a mafia with constant internal power struggles…
- makr17 3y ago
  Manson?
intothemild 3y ago
As someone who's autistic, these kinds of companies are very difficult for me. Usually the "we're family" companies are also the "let's have a social event constantly", or return to the office days are also just filled with socializing. I get it.. some people really enjoy that, but that's not everyone. It feels like it's by design to exclude other kinds of people who don't enjoy a hyper social environment.
- Brusco_RF 3y ago
  I don't think company-sponsored social events are designed to exclude non-social types, they're just for the benefit of social employees. Of course, this is coming from someone who really enjoys drinking on the company dime
  - notaustinpowers 3y ago
    Typically not, but they absolutely feed into the higher-ups perception of you. I worked at a company an hour away from my home. So anytime we had our monthly post-work happy hour, I'd politely decline and go home. Especially as I know they'll be out until 10pm. During one of my reviews it was mentioned that it's disappointing I don't attend the happy hours as that's when the team is able to connect and strengthen our bonds with each other. Wasn't surprised I was let go just a few weeks later after I declined the next happy hour.

PeterStuer 3y ago

The 'values' and 'we/us' scam is how we get the younguns to donate to the 'our' cause.

VimER 3y ago

Run when you see companies call employees "family". That's how exploitation works.

naillo 3y ago

Nothing more like a family than the conditional love of a company.

starkparker 3y ago

The only thing missing is a stupid name, like "as a Smithee" or "as a Smithonaut" or something.

WesolyKubeczek 3y ago
Since you're fired, you ain't no Smithonaut no more

Tommah 3y ago

Don't go into business with family!

jylam 3y ago

I especially like the very American "I ask that you refrain from discussing your termination with any social contacts made through your membership in the family [...] Failure to comply may result in your severance being terminated early or withheld entirely." In (most of ?) Europe, this severance is law and not debatable (as discovered by Musk recently), so this sentence would be outright illegal. You can talk about your salary with anyone you want, discuss it with your colleagues, that's even mandatory for mass-layoffs (through unions and/or elected representatives). You should fight for some more rights, sometime <3

systemvoltage 3y ago
Tbh, I prefer the American style (both as someone who has worked as a employee and someone who has employed). I also think this type of European mentality is the reason for its stagnation. Constant regulation that saps the energy out of amazing talent in Europe.
foobarian 3y ago
Would that sentence in itself be illegal? Or just if the promised action is performed?
- jylam 3y ago
  For a company to threaten to do this.
chaosharmonic 3y ago
That would be pretty suspect here too now, actually [0] [0] https://www.americanbar.org/groups/labor_law/publications/labor_employment_law_news/spring-2023/nlrb-non-disparagement-confidentiality-provisions/ https://www.americanbar.org/groups/labor_law/publications/la...
FredPret 3y ago
As you so sarcastically point out, Americans give up many employment rights such as these. But it's not a one-way street. Being easier to fire makes American employees easier to hire, which is at least in part responsible for much higher pay in the USA compared to employee havens such as Europe. Furthermore, Americans tend to pay less tax. This isn't usually thought of as an employee rights issue, but in my mind, keeping more of your money = stronger property rights

sashank_1509 3y ago

The problem with this and many companies trying to be family etc, is that they completely misunderstand what a family is. Most think a family is a group where people love each other and care for each other. This is wrong, love and affections are symptoms of a healthy family, you can love and care for your friends, you don’t have a family with them. You can actually not really like spending time with many people in your family, but you are still a part of a functioning family (many such cases). In extreme dysfunction, individuals in a family face abuse but for all our intuition they still are a part of a family until the state intervenes. To this one might say a family is then bonds that occur due to blood relations between its members. This again is a symptom, children in an adoptive family still constitute a family. So what exactly is a family? A family is a binding contract where individuals agree to stay together regardless of the circumstances. In the past this contract was enforced to death out of necessity, now this contract is enforced out of necessity till the child becomes 18 generally. There may be hatred, sickness, or a litany of other disturbances but the individuals still stick by each other. This by definition is something a company cannot recreate (without coming awfully close to slavery), and thus it is hopeless for a company to try to aim to be your family. You can leave when you want and they can let you go when they want. That simply is not the same bond as a family.

bradleyjg 3y ago
Adult family relationships have historically been culturally mandatory and unseverable but that’s increasingly not the case in the US. Cultural messages that use therapy-speak, if not necessarily promulgated by actual therapists, encourages more and more atomization. Anyone that is annoying, disagreeable, or who has the wrong ideology is labeled “toxic” and people are encouraged to cut them out of their lives. This includes parents, siblings, spouses—of course an uncle or cousin is entirely disposable.
- episiarch 3y ago
  I have been intentionally toxic to my family for years, and only recently succeeded in having them cut me out of their lives. The "unseverable" bonds of family have caused a litany of mental and physical problems for me my entire life. It's only since my "toxic" behavior finally exhausted their fidelity that I've begun to feel like myself.

Arisaka1 3y ago

My first job was with a "we are a family" company, they used stupid names for the employees internally but also in the job post, together with an emoji spam that couldn't say "how you do fellow kids?" any harder, ask to "see yourself like an entrepreneur" and "be the leader of your own ideas" obviously taking far less than the actual company owners. After a while I had to resign due to mental health problem manifesting as depression and burnout to the point where I couldn't even enjoy my favorite video games. I started therapy which hasn't been going as well as I would like but that's another subject. A month ago I talked to a colleague to see how they're doing. He informed me that another guy left 1 week after I did, but the best part is how he told me that "unlike you at least he gave a 2 week notice". To this day I still wonder if I was really the one unprofessional and that I should just force myself to "work". And I use quotes because I don't know how anyone would expect someone who literally have to force himself to get up from the bed and brush his teeth to be productive. I'm not the kind of person who sees himself as unprofessional and if I had no health problems interrupting my daily life I'd have no issues upholding the 2 week notice. Turns out there is such a thing as a toxic family.

hirako2000 3y ago
Some employers like to "adopt" candidates and brainwash them to them bond to the organisation. Of course that's just smoke and as time goes it takes a toll on mental health, way before things have become clear that your only family is your kin.
- BizarroLand 3y ago
  Well, times have changed, and vampires have changed too. Instead of ravenously draining the life from your body and swallowing your final screams like pez, we've taken a more egalitarian approach of slowly crushing the life out of thousands of people simultaneously, but also giving them time to recover so we can get as much delicious pain juice as possible.
randomuser23423 3y ago
> To this day I still wonder if I was really the one unprofessional As someone who has been in a similar place, I wouldn't think this would be any less professional than if you got in an auto accident, had to be bed-bound for several months, the company couldn't let you work remotely and you had to leave. Depression's a bitch, it makes you want to not seek out care and makes you more likely to interpret anything in the most negative way. Try to not be too hard on yourself for how you had to handle yourself, for all you know those two extra weeks could have caused you to need to be hospitalized or slowed down treatment.

JohnFen 3y ago

This is beautiful. Many years ago, I learned that "we are a family here" is a red-flag phrase that is indicative of that being a poor place to work.

xyzelement 3y ago

This is well written and I agree that family is a very imperfect analogy for a working relationship. At the same time, some work situations are more or less family-like and it still pays to look for the "more." I've been lucky that 4 companies I've worked at in my life so far have been very "employee forward" - creating scenarios of employee growth and engagement (vs putting employees in the seat of powerless cogs). All 4 companies have had a layoff of some sort for various reasons (business line shutdown, covid business hit, interest rate hit, grew too fast - respectively) and I have been affected by one of the layoffs (the other one, I left right before employees were bought out) but I am still happy to have worked there vs anywhere else because of these factors. "Family" doesn't mean employing you past the point it makes sense, it's more about how you're related to when you're here. Are you encouraged to grow, to make connections, are you paid well, does the company try to give you good benefits, etc. You want a place that does all of that. You don't have to call it "family" - but it's a totally different vibe from a sweatshop.

sillysaurusx 3y ago
So creepy. It’s an employment contract, nothing more.
- xyzelement 3y ago
  Sorry but you are really missing the point in my experience. I'll give you a non-tech example. We had a great nanny for our son. She went above and beyond, treating him like a grandson. We went above and beyond for her (max flexibility, paying her days when she couldn't work, lots of bonuses and gifts, etc.) Both of us exceeded the "employment contract" - gave more than we had to and we both came out ahead. That only worked because we were both willing to go beyond. What's the point? We treated each other "like family" even though it was a work situation. When our son didn't need a nanny anymore, it didn't make sense for us to work together (so in a way, she was laid off although in reality we found her another gig) but that didn't take away from the quality of our relationship while it lasted. This is directly analogous to employment dynamics I've had at work for 20 years now. You may find that "creepy" but I also suspect you are oblivious to what the upside can be like.

Joel_Mckay 3y ago

Actually, having integrity usually means being clear with people about budgetary decisions. The manipulative games just makes a firm look like its run by a cult of cons. Talent cutbacks are a loss of invested resources, and signals a failure to predict market trends. Sure it can also bump a laggard stock short-term, but ultimately signals other internal structural issues. Good luck, =)

kridsdale3 3y ago
I'm sure the same-y ness of the language everyone uses is the result of years of academic study in to how to frame things in a way that minimizes the immediate anger in the aggrieved population to minimize things like Going Postal, or sabotage. Of course they don't care about your feelings. As soon as someone is laid off they become a tremendous liability until they are out the door.
- Joel_Mckay 3y ago
  Actually, administrative privileges, email redirection, and building access revocation is often done prior to termination notice on Fridays. This is also why layoffs during vacation windows and on remote sites is more common in IT. Giving people time to deal with the emotional aspect is important. As exposing a vulnerable backbone to those motivated with grievances is unwise. Recall, 93% of breaches are internal, and proprietary assets tend to leak with layoffs. It is never an easy task, but it can be done respectfully. =)

Amorymeltzer 3y ago

It's coming from a different topic, but I like a relevant quote from (the excellent) Dahlia Lithwick on her podcast Amicus (<https://overcast.fm/+Don0hUpKc https://overcast.fm/+Don0hUpKc>): >Being in a family relationship at work never redounds to the benefit of the children

GuB-42 3y ago

I have seen reports of how things go in "old money" families. It doesn't look at all like the idea we make of families. They have access to vast amounts of resources, but family members don't have free access, far from it. There is council that decides how the funds are allocated, and when family members need some, they need to pitch how they are going to use it, and the expected returns. And if some family members are deemed unworthy, or don't follow some rules they can get expelled and lose access to the familial wealth. So maybe that's what companies mean by "we are family". Or more likely, it is a combination of the perspectives of the modest families with the warmth of the wealthy ones.

marklar423 3y ago
That sounds fascinating, a whole world I know nothing about. Would you mind pointing me at where I could read more?
- dwmbt 3y ago
  an heir to the Johnson & Johnson fortune filmed a documentary full of weird dynamics like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HmlX3fLQrEc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HmlX3fLQrEc
- daveguy 3y ago
  This isn't a way to actually read and learn about it, but if you want to see these dynamics taken to hilarious absurds, then you should watch Righteous Gemstones from HBO (Max).
e_i_pi_2 3y ago
At that point I'd think the general opinion is that they're operating as a company _instead of_ a family. Pitching investment ideas and getting cut off from support doesn't sound like a family. I think this is just something you kinda need to do with that much wealth, but I don't think it's an example of how any average family operates
yCombLinks 3y ago
I'll vouch for similar experiences. My girlfriend was an executive assistant for multiple extremely wealthy people and saw these types of dynamics.

hypeit 3y ago

[dead]

tamimio 3y ago

Companies with these terms in job postings are usually a red flag, but don’t be too judgmental: >We are family! No boundaries, underpaid, nepotism, etc. >Fast paced working environment! Mostly toxic environment. >Attention to details! “Big boss” will scream at you for silly things. >Will require working overtime if needed! Self explanatory. >Fun loving, company culture activities, etc. Your typical kindergarten office activities, you can’t refuse either. I will also add this but not always the case >open office style Yeah, nope!

npteljes 3y ago
>open office style "Loud panopticum"
5350-uiop-1130 3y ago
> you can’t refuse either i sure as hell can, have and will.

ketchupdebugger 3y ago

Author forgot 'I take full responsibility'

jedberg 3y ago

This is why I always liked Netflix's outlook (both stated and practiced): We are a sports team, not a family. Perform well and you will be paid well, perform poorly and you will get a nice check to go elsewhere. And sometimes you might perform really well but we just don't need someone with your skills anymore, so we'll still give you nice check to go elsewhere, and that isn't a reflection on your abilities.

codingdave 3y ago
I worked for someone who liked that, too, and after leaving Netflix, he carried it over into a new startup. It was not as great of an experience for any of us (including that founder) as it may sound. Years later, and we still talk amongst ourselves about how weird of an environment it created. Basically, that outlook sounds great on paper, but is not so great to actually live.
- jedberg 3y ago
  I lived it for four years and loved every second of it, but I will be the first to tell you that it's not for everyone. I can also see how it would be hard to carry over into a startup, because the entire culture rests on the idea that you can pay people top of market to be there, that they don't have to worry a lot about budgets, and that you can afford to give people big checks when they leave.
  - yelling_cat 3y ago
    Yeah, paying high performers big money to leave over skills mismatches makes sense for a FAANG but would be suicidal for a startup.
- hintymad 3y ago
  A great culture is really hard to reproduce because it depends on the ability of the CEO. The CEO needs to properly evaluate the performance of his team, and reward or punish them fairly to demonstrate the culture. In the meantime, the CEO needs to find the likeminded people to uphold the culture. In the end, culture is not a plaque on the wall but how the company rewards and punishes employees at every level. A simple example. Netflix promotes Freedom and Responsibility. Their engineers seemingly had freedom to choose their own systems to build with their own designs at their own pace. The company's guideline to their managers used to be "All that a manager does is to set context". But really? How can the leaders avoid catastrophic failures? How can the leaders keep their orgs' schedules and promises? How can the leaders draw the line between empowering and micro-management in such environment? It's not there is a runbook. And things do fail and sometimes someone do take the fall. Then who? How much? How do the leaders do it to avoid sink the culture?

hintymad 3y ago

I thought after Netflix's culture deck and Reed Hoffman's book Alliance, it would be pretty clear that a company is not a family. It could an alliance, it could be a professional sports team, or it could be some business entity, but definitely not a family. I particularly like the concept of alliance, as it reflects the reality. Well, I guess the memo is not as well known as I thought.

penguin_booze 3y ago
I don't recall where I heard it, but Netflix's own wording were "we're not a family; we're a team".

andrewstuart 3y ago

Snark of the finest quality.

KingShabibo 3y ago

[flagged]

EdwardDiego 3y ago

Companies are families like the Mafia is families.

Aurornis 3y ago

When I was young I worked at a company that said things like "we are family" and kind of meant it. It wasn't really a good thing unless you were a low performer. We had some people who were hired into jobs they couldn't do well, but they got to keep those jobs because it was like their role in the family. People basically never got fired, including the couple guys in the corner who barely did any work but had been there forever. When money was tight, they didn't do layoffs. They just cut everyone's compensation by the same percentages. Including those people who didn't do much work, because we can't fire family. Modern companies avoid this phrase because it has become so toxic that nobody wants to be associated with it. It's a holdover from old school management who speak in boilerplate platitudes like "fast paced environment" that don't mean anything.

RajT88 3y ago
I contracted at a company once which operated like a family. Once you got hired, it was really difficult to get fired. So much so, most people there hadn't heard about anyone ever getting fired. Eventually, someone heard through the grapevine what a firing offense was: Getting caught having sex on the company campus with a coworker. But! The first time was a warning. That company had soooo much money to burn. Lots of people did not like to work, they just kind of screwed around all day. Family members of the founders got to use the private jets (of which there was a fleet of a dozen) to do whatever they liked. I won't name names, but the company name rhymed with "Spamway".
- gota 3y ago
  I understand OP is beeing cheeky, yes? But I don't know company he is referring to If anyone could reply to this with the answer I'd appreciate it
  - pirates 3y ago
    my guess is Amway
    - RajT88 3y ago

wintogreen74 3y ago

Disregarding the biological aspects, I think the problem is "families" don't care about people, it's a group of individuals who, through deeply caring about each other, create this thing we've labelled a family. I've definitely had glimpses of this with some work relationships, but it had nothing to do with the company.

poulsbohemian 3y ago

Had someone try to recruit me last week with the phrase “it’s like a family.” Kids… if you hear this phrase, run away. Likewise, if anyone ever calls you a “company man” consider whether it’s a similar ploy to manipulate your emotions.

fallingfrog 3y ago

I love reading the bizarre screeds that companies put on their websites as a mission statement. Once I saw a company website shouting that they had a “relentless obsession with customer satisfaction.” I was like, take a deep breath Bob. You’re gonna burst a blood vessel.

speby 3y ago

The whole premise of comparing a company to a family is not only flawed. It's just straight up incorrect/wrong. Very little about companies and the way they run and operate looks remotely like a family.

wintorez 3y ago

This reminded me of a sketch made by Studio C: https://youtu.be/EmY2b-i-NpE https://youtu.be/EmY2b-i-NpE

EchoReflection 3y ago

several years ago I became an "ultra high net worth individual" (through unexpected events involving a car accident and an inept (but very large) insurance company, and with the help of my closest family members I/we decided (for legal reasons) what was to be done with my wealth in the event of my death. Deciding which family members (I have a pretty big family, if I count aunts, uncles, cousins, but only two grandparents left) to whom I would want to leave what amounts of that wealth was very surreal. Kind of felt like putting monetary values on family, which I guess in a sense it literally was.