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Beyond Meat’s Beyond Burger life cycle assessment (2018)
- peetle 5y agoInteresting, but they commissioned it. :) I'm curious if there are other assessments with different methodologies, different outcomes.
- rabbitonrails 5y agoAgreed
- smt88 5y agoIs it even interesting though? How can it be trusted at all? This kind of study is really easy to massage into the result you want. You're dealing with extremely variable, large-scale supply chains.
- hourislate 5y ago>90% less greenhouse emissions, 99% less water, and 93% less land This was a great video concerning those claims above.... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sGG-A80Tl5g https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sGG-A80Tl5g
- cageface 5y agoThis video is pure garbage. Detailed rebuttal: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G44CDBdC8CA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G44CDBdC8CA
- EarthLaunch 5y agoI just had a horrible vision of an HN where everyone just posts links to videos.
- anthony_romeo 5y agoI’ve been starting to look for alternatives TBH. I’m really starting to get ‘Reddit 2015’ vibes from the type of knee jerk low quality cynical uninformed comments I’ve been seeing float to the top recently somewhat more frequently than usual. Not jumping ship yet, but I always like to be ahead of the game a bit.
- hourislate 5y agoHave you tried /g yet?
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- trwr 5y agoThere's a response to this rebuttal here: https://www.patreon.com/posts/50919460 https://www.patreon.com/posts/50919460
- toolz 5y agoI just skimmed thru one video, mind giving me us the highlights? The argument that cows water requirements are mostly "green water" (i.e. rain that grows the crops they eat) seemed reasonable to me. So I have to imagine your "pure" garbage is a bit of hyperbole, but I am curious to understand which parts are wrong - hopefully without having to sift through more videos - thanks in advance
- cageface 5y agoAt least in the US most of the weight cattle put on comes at the end when they're fed grain in feeding lots. Needless to say this they're not drinking "green water". https://www.nationalgeographic.com/science/article/burger-water-shortages-colorado-river-western-us https://www.nationalgeographic.com/science/article/burger-wa... There's loads of documentation on this and other points in the video that's easy to find if you're not driving a carnivore agenda the way TIL constantly is on YouTube.
- julienreszka 5y agoDo you think you're convincing anyone with this kind of rhetoric?
- hourislate 5y agoYour video is pure garbage. The detailed rebuttal is false....
- anothernewdude 5y agoAgricultural land or just Arable land?
- jimmaswell 5y agoThat's good and all but the taste is still far off from normal. Impossible is a lot better but still not an exact fit.
- zachrose 5y agoI agree, but also find joy in the larger “burger experience” (toppings, bun, fries, soda, presentation, etc). I hope I’m not the only one.
- fossuser 5y agoYeah, I was disappointed in it at first but after becoming vegetarian it's really nice to have it even if it's not perfect. When you have it with all the condiments it's good enough.
- jimmaswell 5y agoHave you tried the Impossible Whopper? I was pretty impressed by it. I still get it once in a while since it's pretty good and something different.
- fossuser 5y agoI haven't tried the whopper yet, but that's mostly because I only really eat Burger King in airports. Looking forward to trying it though.
- lovelettr 5y agoSo for awhile I liked it and ate it. Then out of nowhere it turned into a thing that when I eat it I, without getting graphic, let’s just call it extreme digestive issues. I wonder how frequently that occurs. Or am I just odd?
- mikepurvis 5y agoIt feels like they're on the right track, but after all the hype, I was a bit disappointed too. It has like a slightly odd oiliness that I didn't think I minded at first but ended up finding quite off-putting.
- narrator 5y agoA bag of rice is probably a lot better than a Beyond Burger.
- mikepurvis 5y agoI think you're being facetious, but I kind of agree— I've found more joy in homemade black bean patties, shallow-fried falafel-based sandwiches, etc. Basically I enjoy it more when it's something clearly different that is filling that role, rather than something pretending to be something else.
- the_benno 5y ago100% agree. Beyond & Impossible are alright, but there's an uncanny valley quality to them that can be kind of off-putting (to me). I've been proselytizing these black bean burgers to anyone who'll listen for a while now -- they nail what you're describing. https://www.seriouseats.com/the-food-lab-the-best-black-bean-burgers https://www.seriouseats.com/the-food-lab-the-best-black-bean...
- fermentation 5y agoAnd 5x more sodium, which is a shame because I really do like the way they taste.
- tashoecraft 5y agoSo is that comparing against plain red meat with no salt added? Because if so that’s not really a fair comparison because you generally add a decent amount of salt to burger whereas you don’t really need to for beyond
- calvinmorrison 5y agoThis is a great time to plug MSG... the delicious umami flavor wrapped up in one delish ingredient. I never used salt much growing up at home - we always used Aromat! I was shocked to learn that most of the world doesn't use Aromat! Everyone go buy Aromat! It's delicious but unfortunately seems to be mostly popular for Swiss and South Africans! It's perfect on tomatos
- jhgb 5y ago> This is a great time to plug MSG Is that the thing on the bottom of the label right before lark's vomit?
- canadianfella 5y agoWhat are you talking about?
- jhgb 5y agoI guess I'm just getting too old with MP references...
- Dah00n 5y agoI use it a lot too (but hardly anyone else I know here in Denmark use it except very old people). Aromat does contain 60% salt though.
- o0-0o 5y agoAnd if you’ve tried one, just about 99% less taste.
- tshaddox 5y agoLess taste? That's not a complaint I've heard nor experienced. I've always found Beyond burgers to be a bit strange, sure, kinda like the uncanny valley of hamburger patties, but I certainly never found them to be bland.
- calvinmorrison 5y agoWe all watched bad sci-fi growing up... right? Beyond burgers are what I imagine when the advanced microwave food creator machine spits out when I say I want a cheeseburger
- swader999 5y agoAnd good sci fi!
- sweetheart 5y agoAnd 100% less violence.
- the_benno 5y agoHave you tried one? This just isn't true. They taste slightly different, but definitely not "less". If you do it right -- get a nice crust on there, don't overcook it, toast up some decent buns in butter and use good pickles, cheese, etc. -- it's every bit as flavorful and indulgent as a beef burger. (a decent one at least... you're not going to replicate the best of the best, nor should that really the goal)
- whimsicalism 5y agoBeyonds sausages imo are much better than their burger. Impossible is the real burger king in this category
- codezero 5y agoI like to say beyond meat is like an animal you haven’t eaten yet, but sounds plausible. I think with it framed that way it tastes delicious (if you crave animals). I went vegetarian and crave fake burgers more now than real ones before and Beyond really hits the spot for me. I love the sausages as well. The taco crumbles are a weird texture but I’ve used them in some hash scrambles.
- MPSimmons 5y agoThat's a very cool way of putting it, and you're right. Beyond Beef isn't more different from beef than buffalo is, for sure.
- archagon 5y agoFYI, Impossible ground "beef" sauteed for 10m with spices[1] makes for a perfect taco or quesadilla filling. No need for a separate product at all. [1] <1lb beef, 1tsp cumin, 1tsp smoked paprika, 1/2tsp garlic powder, 1/2tsp chili powder, 1/2tsp salt, 1/2tsp pepper
- prawn 5y agoDidn't know they did sausages. That could be a decent market to tackle. We don't typically make burgers at home, but we do often buy simple sausages as a quick meal for the kids. Usually the supermarket choice is premium sausages with more exotic combos (that I like but the kids don't), or basic plain ones which always seem a bit miserable. If we're buying plain sausages, might as well get something like this instead.
- whimsicalism 5y agoI'm curious - what's an example of such an exotic combo?
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- wyager 5y agoLand usage is a totally useless metric for the impact of beef production, because we can (and do) raise cattle on land that's basically useless for anything else.
- sweetheart 5y agoBut we use SO much land to grow the food that cattle eat. It's not a useless metric at all.
- wyager 5y agoYes, and? We're not using it for anything else. Saving 93% of the arid scrubland we use to raise cattle in the US wouldn't benefit us in any way. OTOH, growing soy and other plant protein sources used for fake meat requires high-quality land and is extremely taxing on the soil. As an interesting reference, take a look at how farmers in Brazil use deforested Amazon land to graze cattle only after depleting the soil to grow soy for a few years, at which point it is inhospitable to plant agriculture.
- Pfhreak 5y agoWhat do cattle eat in CAFOs, and how much of their lives are spent there and how much more do they eat there than when they are younger and smaller? And where does that food come from?
- julienreszka 5y agoThe food that ruminants eat are mostly non-human edible leftovers, so they effectively reduce waste.
- purephase 5y agoCompletely ignores the methane output issue which is a huge contributor to global warming. Also, killing billions of sentient beings simply because the taste is a bit off, but let's all just ignore that.
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- raidicy 5y agoGenuinely curious; is eating something processed like this better than eating regular unprocessed ground meat?
- irjustin 5y agoYou should try it just to test it yourself. I get a different burger maybe once or twice a quarter to see how they stack up. Some of them I wouldn't know it was veg if someone else ordered it for me. Legitimately that good. I've also had some terrible ones too, not sure if it was due to the prep work vs the 'meat' itself. For now the price is always 25% higher which keeps me away from being a regular, but I expect that to continue to come down. Consider me a believer, so - grain of salt.
- jiofih 5y agoI think the question is regarding nutrition / health, not taste.
- The_rationalist 5y agoDid you saw their pack of ten burgers? $1.60 per burger, it's dirt cheap! https://www.fool.com/investing/2020/06/17/cheaper-burgers-lift-beyond-meat-stock.aspx https://www.fool.com/investing/2020/06/17/cheaper-burgers-li...
- v0x 5y agoPrice per patty is a strange metric. I get that they're prepackaged in patty form but the competing "traditional" product is ground beef which is typically sold in price per pound. Ground beef is readily available at sub-$3/lb. Plant-based ones like Beyond are over $6/lb. So Beyond is more than twice the price of ground beef. It gets even worse if you compare it against what I imagine is the most popular meat sold today, chicken breast; that's $1.75/lb in value stores like Sam's Club but is often on sale for less, around $1.50/lb if you pay attention to weekly ads[0]. So in that respect, Beyond meat can be more than four times as expensive! That may not mean a whole lot to many on this site who are earning six figures but for everyday folks it's a large consideration. [0] https://circulars-prod.cpnscdn.com/pdf-cache/Randalls/21_14_SOU_WC_RT/stores/01066.pdf https://circulars-prod.cpnscdn.com/pdf-cache/Randalls/21_14_...
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- sweetheart 5y agoWhile it is not my experience at all, I understand that some folks have certain negative opinions of Beyond Burgers, and other fake meat/imitation burgers: - The texture is off - Maybe they cook strangely - Potentially less taste But the most important thing about them, and the reason I urge everyone to at least _try_ Beyond Burgers, is they require no violence against animals. This is not an argument that fairs well on HN in general, but the fact that we can eat something this similar to a burger but without the slaughter of living, feeling, individual being is so unbelievably important and incredible. Maybe you think the burger tastes different, or has a strange texture, but I certainly won't try to argue that because it doesn't matter. No one needed to die for you to eat it.
- gnarbarian 5y agoIt is possible to have so much empathy that your brain falls out.
- sweetheart 5y agoI don't know what this means, can you clarify?
- Kranar 5y agoNot everyone agrees with you that raising a farm animal and killing it is in and of itself a form of violence. Certainly many forms of factory farming are absolutely abhorrent and should be eliminated, but saying that what many farmers who raise cattle, chicken, pork and a variety of animals, and do so with respect and care are engaging in a form of cruelty and violence is not an opinion everyone shares. An animal lives a life that's part of a cycle, it's born, it grows, it has experiences and serves various purposes/functions over the course of its life, and then it dies. The fact of that animal's eventual death is not in and of itself violent, every animal eventually dies. So how do animals die? They either die from predation, disease, or in this case from a farmer putting it to death; virtually no mammals ever die from reaching their maximum life span out in the wild and the idea that in the absence of farming you'd have cattle and pigs living free and full lives in the wild is simply not a reflection of any real-world environment. I think it's incorrect to focus on one single aspect of raising a farm animal, its death at the hands of a farmer, and using that as sole characteristic of what it takes and what it means to raise a farm animal and judge the entire system based on that one act. I can respect your point of view and I think we'd agree that alternatives that are more environmentally friendly and sustainable are a win, but I can't agree with you that as a matter of principle, raising a farm animal and then killing it is intrinsically violent.
- towergratis 5y agoAnd 100% not Burger
- swader999 5y agoMost of the ranch land in my area isn't really suitable for other kinds of agriculture so I don't know if that measure means much. It certainly isn't irrigated and I think the cows give back the water they use.
- eppsilon 5y agoIIRC someone was working on a seaweed-based feed additive to cut down on the methane production, not sure what came of it.
- swader999 5y agoYeah read that too but seriously? You going to spend the energy harvesting and transporting that to the center of the country so cows fart a little less? Meanwhile China still puking out a third of the world's CO2 with no end in sight.
- SamBam 5y agoDoes grassland really need to be suited for any kind of agriculture? The prairies used to be one of the greatest carbon sinks in the world, storing as much or more carbon per acre than most forests. They were also a source of incredible diversity. Cattle ranching operations transforms that carbon sink into methane gas to warm our atmosphere. And while the water is returned, the energy spend transporting and cleaning it isn't.
- spenczar5 5y agoHow does that calculation work? Prairies were inhabited by huge herds of large grazers: bison. Thats how they stayed as prairies. There were about 60 million bison on the American prairie before 1800. There are about 90 million cattle in the US across all states - with large numbers outside the bison’s range, in states like New York and Tennessee and California. So - roughly in the same ballpark. Pasture-raised cattle don’t seem so different to me - but I am not very informed on this topic, maybe I am missing something?
- yumraj 5y agoAnd 100% less prions.
- koolba 5y agoNot quite: https://www.wisconsinacademy.org/magazine/prions-plants https://www.wisconsinacademy.org/magazine/prions-plants
- senbarryobama 5y agoGeez, we need to cook everything soon
- khc 5y agoAccording to https://waterfootprint.org/en/water-footprint/product-water-footprint/water-footprint-crop-and-animal-products/ https://waterfootprint.org/en/water-footprint/product-water-... , beef has a ~50x water footprint compared to vegetable. It's hard to understand what "99% less impact on water scarcity" means but surely beyond meat can't use less water than vegetables? (since beyond meat is plant based)
- tomnipotent 5y agoIt's pretty close. If faux beef is 100 per X, and real beef is 5,000 per X, then faux beef is 98% of real beef.
- rddbs 5y agoI’m always surprised to hear folks having such negative opinions of beyond and impossible burgers. I quite like the taste despite it not being an exact beef flavour, and I think the texture is more or less spot on.
- e_commerce 5y agoAnd tastes 99.9% worse than real meat.
- lowercased 5y agoIt's good to see these sorts of numbers, especially as a $BYND stockholder. :) I've had more impossible burgers (from BK) than beyond, and I think I prefer the impossible taste a bit more, but only slightly. In a burger, with other toppings (tomatoes, mustard, onions, lettuce, etc)... the 'non-beef' taste is pretty minimal, in my experience, although I do notice a slight aftertaste. Haven't tried the new "beyond 3.0" which is dropping this week. As a 'beef substitute' for every day cooking, haven't used it, but had other family members tell me they use the 'beyond sausage' (some spicy italian variation) in their everyday cooking to replace previous sausage use and they love it. They've gone totally vegetarian, have tried multiple meat substitutes over the years and think beyond is generally the best. Have been trying ways to reduce meat consumption - going for blackbean substitutes in some situations, beyond/impossible burgers when available, etc. Not sure I'll ever go totally 'no-meat' but I do notice I have far less red meat consumption compared to 6-7 years ago. I agree with another poster that the high sodium is a problem, and is possibly keeping some people away.
- 542458 5y agoHey, I agree with pretty much everything you just said. One other obstacle that is worth highlighting is that (at least where I am) the cost delta between beyond/impossible and plain-old beef is pretty massive, and the #1 thing keeping me from eating more of it.
- Skunkleton 5y agoThe cost is a shame. Still, it will be cheaper eventually.
- bioinformatics 5y ago100% less flavour.
- seltzered_ 5y agoReport date: September 14, 2018 Is this being posted to influence stock price? BYND price change today (May 6, 2021): At close: 4:00PM EDT 119.04 -2.53 (-2.08%) After hours: 110.75 -8.29 (-6.96%)
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- throwawaysea 5y agoIsn’t this just another ultra processed food? I actually don’t mind the taste of these meat alternatives but I do wonder what the long term effects are if we suddenly switch our diets to eating significant quantities of things that didn’t evolve alongside us. I think it’s healthy for people to be skeptical.
- balozi 5y agoWith glowing claims like this its hard to not be cynical or at least skeptical. Reminds me of this gem :https://www.collectorsweekly.com/articles/the-top-10-most-dangerous-ads/ https://www.collectorsweekly.com/articles/the-top-10-most-da...
- f430 5y agodefinitely not a substitute. for vegans? sure. meat eaters? headline is clickbait
- mykowebhn 5y agoI've been trying to eat less meat for environmental reasons, and it's been made much easier because of Beyond Burger. I personally can't tell the difference between Beyond Burger and a real beef burger, especially when I buy it from fast food chains like Carl's Jr where it is covered in sauce. I've had Impossible Burger several times and I could never get over its smell. Beyond Sausage Spicy Italian is also a favorite in our household.
- rank0 5y agohttps://youtu.be/sGG-A80Tl5g https://youtu.be/sGG-A80Tl5g
- SubiculumCode 5y agoIt would be nice if they could develop a low/near-zero carb version of Beyond Burger. Beef doesn't have carbs, while these vegetarian alternates have around 9 carbs per patty. The dream would be able to do keto diet with vegetarian patties.
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- northfield 5y agoand 95% less testosterone
- adrian_mrd 5y agoWhilst the environmental and animal welfare benefits of many of the ‘fake’ meats (Beyond, Impossible, Vegetarian Butcher, etc) are noble and important, in the spirit of ‘full’ lifecycle analysis, it is important to also consider just how processed (ultra processed) these products are and the potential impacts this has in the human health domain. And the research on ultra processed foods is rather clear, they are ‘bad’ for human health in large quantities. Some alternatives that are better for the environment AND for human health include: pulled oats from Finland, and fake cheese products made from beans (rather than tree nuts). Edit: Added… simple tip, read the ingredient list and count the number of ingredients used.
- dguaraglia 5y agoLet's not overlook the fact that most cows raised in massive farms are fed a horrible diet and most beef based products - even raw beef - are also processed and have additives. I'm not saying that Beyond Burger is better or worse, but that pretending all beef is healthy is kind of silly.
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- gnicholas 5y agoI'd be curious to know which ingredients are the most worrisome. I don't eat much Beyond or Impossible at this point, but I could see myself eating a lot in the future if they made lower-fat options (more like ground turkey than ground beef). But I don't want to eat something that is made out of unhealthy ingredients. What should I look out for?
- adrian_mrd 5y agoThree good reads to start: 1. Primer on ultra processed foods: https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/what-are-ultra-processed-foods-and-are-they-bad-for-our-health-2020010918605 https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/what-are-ultra-processed... 2. NOVA “the food classification that categorises foods according to the extent and purpose of food processing, rather than in terms of nutrients” [PDF]: http://archive.wphna.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/WN-2016-7-1-3-28-38-Monteiro-Cannon-Levy-et-al-NOVA.pdf http://archive.wphna.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/WN-2016-... 3. ‘Ultra-processed foods and added sugars in the US diet: evidence from a nationally representative cross-sectional study’: https://bmjopen.bmj.com/content/6/3/e009892 https://bmjopen.bmj.com/content/6/3/e009892
- andrewchambers 5y agoIf its close enough and the price is lower, people should naturally just choose the cheaper option. If something is 50 percent more energy efficient, surely it could be 50 percent cheaper.
- ge96 5y agoThe "living" argument is interesting. What about nature itself that eats each other, that is meat. Lab grown meat would be something.
- ge96 5y agoI get it though, pretty f'd watching a chick get thrown into a grinder for being a male, etc... It's tough... on the other hand nice how convenient it is to just walk into any store and buy food.
- daddylongstroke 5y agoCan you really call what they sell in stores food?
- ipaddr 5y agoI'm generally surprised no one brings up the negative health benefits of processed foods. It is not healthier to get rid of meat only to replace it with high salt chemically processed food that tastes like meat. It seems like we are going backwards. You know what uses less greenhouse emissions, less water and less land? The orginal plant based food that gets processed into a beyond burger. If you really care about the planet why are you buying processed anything? That get's shipped nationwide / worldwide that creates factories, chemical waste, greenhouse gases. Buying locally and growing locally really helps the planet. Going to burger king and getting an absolute burger instead of a whooper is just pretending.
- tootie 5y agoAll food is processed. Cows are genetically engineered. There's no reason to be afraid of simple chemistry. Cranks like Michael Polian have made a fortune selling FUD with no science. Just read a label. Boxed food with a ton of salt and sugar is probably not good for you whether it's corn syrup or agave nectar. Similarly, boxed fiber and protein is perfectly fine. Buying locally is not scalable and fails to take advantage of the climate advantage of different geographies.
- SvenMarquardt 5y agoReal meat is lindy. Fake meat is not. We won't know until multi-decade studies have been done on the health effects of a fake meat diet.
- toper-centage 5y agoFortunately, we at least know that meat consumption, specially red meat, is bad for you and a WFPB diet is better. So my suggestion is to use products like beyong as a gateway to a WFPB diet.
- lambdaba 5y agoMeat, literally millions of years in our evolutionary past VS seed oils barely 100 (more like 50 for mass adoption), but surely "the science" is never wrong nor corrupted. Inform yourself on the history of this with Ancel Keys etc.
- nikolay 5y agoHow a frankenfood can be even considered?! If you want to be vegan or vegetarian, stick with traditional products for your dietary style. The analogy is a recovering cannibal making babies out of carrots and eating them with "clear" consciousness. The company should rebrand to "Beyond Junk"!
- andrew_ 5y agoThis is a phenomenon that all too often suffers from the distaste of ruinous empathy [1] and moral superiority. I personally don't care why/how [you] _feel_ about this product. Stories about morality and feelings in the alt food market are insufferable and immediately invoke an epic eye roll. I care about what I eat in this order: 1. Is it healthy? 2. Does it taste good? 3. Is it sustainable? Fake meat, at this point, barely meets #1, absolutely gets nowhere close to fulfilling #2 for my taste, and seems to fulfill #3. But it tastes like hot garbage compared to actual meat. I'll wait for lab-grown muscle to reach maturity. My taste buds and macros matter more in the meantime. [1] https://www.radicalcandor.com/faq/what-is-ruinous-empathy/#:~:text=Ruinous%20Empathy™%20is%20“nice,is%20sugar-coated%20and%20unclear https://www.radicalcandor.com/faq/what-is-ruinous-empathy/#:....
- name_nick_sex_m 5y agoSo your priorities are to be 1. selfish asshole 2. selfish asshole 3. globally conscious and not listed (no importance): 4. against animal cruelty Good to know, thanks for sharing.
- rognjen 5y agoNever thought about it that way. I guess wanting to be healthy is selfish.
- andrew_ 5y agoThis kind of a reply belongs on Twitter, not HN. Since you're new here, I highly recommend reading the guidelines for replying. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html I'll leave the most relevant parts to commenting here for you: > Be kind. Don't be snarky. Have curious conversation; don't cross-examine. Please don't fulminate. Please don't sneer, including at the rest of the community. > Comments should get more thoughtful and substantive, not less, as a topic gets more divisive. > When disagreeing, please reply to the argument instead of calling names. "That is idiotic; 1 + 1 is 2, not 3" can be shortened to "1 + 1 is 2, not 3." > Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize. Assume good faith. > Please don't use Hacker News for political or ideological battle. It tramples curiosity.
- exabrial 5y agoAlso 96% less tasty. Keeping my mind open, but it's just not there yet.
- pacomerh 5y agoI'm all for it, I know asking people to stop eating meat is like insulting their mother, but I wish at least they would reduce their intake a little bit. That would make a difference.
- ffggvv 5y agowhat’s with all the shilling of this garbage? i’d rather just have a black bean patty than some fake high sodium garbage that’s meant to emulate meat. and i mainly eat meat for protein
- eucryphia 5y agoAnd 90% less humans, you can't grow crops on land only suitable for livestock.
- cubicmeter 5y ago%90 less natural
- Pfhreak 5y agoYou are aware of how beef is raised, right? From antibiotics to increase mass, to an unnatural grain based diet, to confinement and CAFOs. Beef you get at the supermarket is far from "natural."
- neuro_image2 5y agoI am an avid meat-lover but it does play on my conscience that I am in fact eating a former sentient being and potentially contributing to environmental devastation. I would appreciate answers to the following two, albeit simplistic questions that always plaque me when I consider stopping eating meat products: 1) Is it really unethical to eat animals when the natural trajectory of most animals lives was likely to be eaten by other animals or die some horrendous death in their natural environment? Isn't it better for an animal to live its best life on a free range farm being grass fed, then get quickly and humanely slaughtered? 2)If I made a personal decision to stop eating meat, would there be any significant impact at all on the overall environment realistically? For example, I recently watched the documentary Seaspiracy which showed the negative effects of commercial fishing. However, the reality is that me (not) eating a bowl of sashimi once a week makes no difference in the context of, say, countries like Japan slaughtering millions of fish daily (regardless of any change in behavior on my part or my small circle of influence)?
- danShumway 5y ago> Is it really unethical to eat animals when the natural trajectory of most animals lives was likely to be eaten by other animals or die some horrendous death The vast majority of meat that we produce isn't sparing animals that would have died anyway, it's not from hunting. We bring animals into existence (lots and lots of them, more than would naturally exist) for the sole purpose of killing them. Whether or not that distinction resonates with you morally -- different people have different reactions to that. But for me, it feels tangibly different. I also think about it from an individual perspective instead of a societal perspective. I stopped thinking about a binary "is it ever wrong to eat meat in any situation" question, and the question I started asking instead was "do I need to?" The answer to that question doesn't change just because of what the food chain is, or what animals would do to me if they got the chance, or what tigers do in the wild, or whether deer like being eaten by wolves. Those systems might exist, but do I need to be a part of them? Nearly all life on earth exploits other life to live. Humans aren't an exception to that, I'm not an exception to that. But if I can reduce my level of exploitation at little cost to me, then I want to. I don't buy that I would be killing animals as an act of charity, I know myself too well. For me personally, I can't pretend that I was eating chicken because I cared about the animals. > Isn't it better for an animal to live its best life on a free range farm being grass fed, then get quickly and humanely slaughtered? I don't think this is a scalable model for food production. My personal experience has been that choosing to eat only ethically sourced meat is more expensive and more difficult than going vegetarian. And I am doubtful even in a perfect world that free range farms with humane slaughterhouses would be capable of providing the amount of meat that people want to eat today. I think in order for that to happen, at the very least a lot of other people would need to go vegetarian or significantly reduce their meat intake. What you're asking is a complicated question, and different people have different answers to it, and even saying something like "killing animals is unethical" is itself a really broad answer that means different things to different people. But I feel reasonably confident today saying that inhumane treatment of animals is built into the agriculture industry at a very fundamental level, and I sort of think it's naive to say that's going to change. I see more people becoming vegetarian at a faster rate than I see people opting to find a local farmer that can supply them with local free range beef. And as uncomfortable as it might be to say, most of the meat you see in a store came from animals that led horrible lives before they were butchered in horrible ways. So on some level, I feel like the underlying ethical question of "do animals exist for food" is kind of besides the point, because even if they do exist for food, I don't see any evidence that we can keep meat production going at the same rate and at the same cost without being cruel to animals. I see a lot of people who want to believe that we can do free-range happy cows, but... everything I know about economy of scale contradicts that idea. > If I made a personal decision to stop eating meat, would there be any significant impact at all on the overall environment realistically? Maybe people can debate this, I can't say with certainty that insulating your house really well or reducing driving wouldn't be comparable in some cases. But most information I have seen suggests to me that for most people, eliminating meat (or even just reducing it) is one of the single highest-impact actions any individual can take for their own lives. So if you are looking for ways to reduce your personal environmental impact, then yes, reducing (or eliminating) meat does help at least as much as anything else you can do. But, let's get to the rest of your question: > However, the reality is that me (not) eating a bowl of sashimi once a week makes no difference in the context of, say, countries like Japan slaughtering millions of fish daily Correct, but here's the thing. Literally nothing that you do to reduce your own individual emissions is ever going to be significant next to the impact of industry and government. You sort your plastic, great. The impact of doing that is negligible compared to a single bill that regulates how water bottles are made. What makes vegetarianism promising is that there is genuinely a social shift happening on a wider scale than just with individuals, and that social shift has impact on industries. The biggest environmental impact of vegetarianism is when enough people shift that the meat industry overall starts to pivot or produce less meat, or where enough political pressure builds up that meat subsidies start to go away. The other thing that makes vegetarianism promising is that the more demand there is for meat substitutes, the cheaper those products become and the more resources are devoted into developing better products. We saw a similar thing happen with green energy. Individual choices meant very little compared to the amount of energy that industries used. But at some point, green energy got cheap, and demand got higher, and companies started getting into it as well. So I am cautious about telling people that what they do doesn't matter, because a lot of this stuff only changes when a certain threshold of people start getting involved or putting pressure on politicians to make changes. I don't want to pretend that reducing your own emissions is going to save the world, but I also disagree with the fatalism that says that individual choices don't matter. I don't know if vegetarianism has enough momentum to significantly reduce meat demand, but it might. And when I look at the alternatives, I don't think there's any chance at all that the ethical meat movement has enough momentum to change anything, so throwing weight behind the vegetarians is about as good a plan as anything else. Beyond Burgers might get cheaper than normal burgers at some point, and that could drive a large change in how restaurants source food and how normal people buy food. If enough people stop buying fish, commercial fishing might go down because of a loss of profits. But there is basically zero chance that free-range chicken eggs will ever be cheaper than caged eggs, or that fisheries are suddenly going to become sustainable out of the goodness of their own hearts.
- markonen 5y agoThe local burger joint closest to my house is 100% vegan and uses Beyond patties. It’s also, in my opinion, the best burger in town. I’m a carnivore and would definitely notice the difference in a Pepsi challenge of the patties themselves, but the overall taste and presentation make this place pull ahead of all the meat-based alternatives. I feel like we’ve crossed a threshold. This was literal sci-fi just a couple of years ago.
- adamnemecek 5y agoWhat’s the name of the place?
- markonen 5y agoBun2Bun in Helsinki, Finland
- top_kekeroni_m8 5y agoIt's one of the top 50 vegan restaurants in Europe, so it's obviously very good :) you live in a nice location if that's your local joint!
- XorNot 5y agoI made a conscious effort to develop some vegetarian dishes I could make simply for variety. If nothing else, vegetarian cooking has to do a lot of work to make up for not just leaning on meat as a primary flavor component, but the result is you can get much more diversity and interesting flavors and textures. It's honestly more exciting to see where we're going to do once we're at "seamless replica" and can start playing with the capability to make brand new things.
- Pfhreak 5y agoThere's some really great vegetarian options from world cuisine. I draw heavily on Mexican, Indian, Italian, Greek, Turkish, and southeast Asian cuisine in my home cooking. It's a nice variety and a good challenge to find the simple recipes that don't try to replace meat but instead taste excellent without it.
- tagawa 5y agoSorry to be picky but… "less greenhouse emissions" -> "fewer greenhouse emissions"
- xdennis 5y agoI don't think that's how it works. My understanding is that you use "fewer" for discreetly countable things (fewer tables, fewer people) and "less" for continuous things (less rice, less time). Emissions are continuous. I don't emit one emission now and another emission the next hour.
- mkl 5y ago"Less" is used for countable things too. Some time ago some people tried to make up a rule that it shouldn't be, but "less" has been used for countable things for over 1000 years. See some linguists' takes: http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/003775.html http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/003775.h..., https://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=2819 https://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=2819
- perryizgr8 5y agoWeird that they concentrate on qualities that are absolutely irrelevant to a burger. When I'm eating a burger I'm thinking about the taste, smell, and it's nutritional qualities, maybe price. Not random environmental stuff.
- bendbro 5y agoI will personally grow my own cow, slit its throat, and carve a bloody quarter pound of beef off it before I eat one of these things.
- efiecho 5y agohttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sGG-A80Tl5g https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sGG-A80Tl5g
- ram_rar 5y agoThough meatless burgers like beyond may be good for the planet. I'm not sure, if they are healthy for humans. Each serving seems to be very high in sodium (390mg) as compared to lean ground meat (80mg of sodium) [1]. So, for people with high blood pressure, this might be a no no. [1] https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/impossible-and-beyond-how-healthy-are-these-meatless-burgers-2019081517448 https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/impossible-and-beyond-ho...
- rewq4321 5y agoI don't think people tend to eat plain ground beef though? Flavouring/salt is generally added
- koheripbal 5y agoI don't salt my burgers at all. Decent ground meat doesn't need to be salted, and still tastes 100x better than beyond meat.
- simtel20 5y agoIf you're used to so little salt, that makes you an outlier in general, and would definitely make something like beyond meat unpalatable. But I do believe your tastes are very uncommon.
- catdawg 5y agoI've tried Beyond Burgers and I quite like them. Sure it's not the same, but honestly, I don't really care that it tastes the same. I've also tried other burgers that do not try to mimic burgers and just create a new taste... and I also really like them! sometimes even more. I believe in just reducing meat consumption. I think meat should be a lot more expensive because when you purchase it, you should pay a tax for the environmental impact. That way, hopefully eating meat becomes a luxury, and not something you eat always at lunch and dinner. And even if it does not, at least the money collected from this tax could go into environmental programs.
- pibi 5y agoAfter "seapiracy" I don't really think we are addressing the biggest issue here. I would like to know if there's anything like that for fish. I would buy anything that tastes like tuna but it's fully vegetable, or any other fishes. Just give me the same taste on my sushi, please.
- cies 5y agoYes, it exists for many year. Ask you local vegan community (as product in this field are very different from place to place). We have several vegan sushi places, and the omnis that I know like the food there very much.
- pibi 5y agoHey, thanks. I'm aware there are so-called alternatives (Banana Blossom, Tofish and such). Unfortunately, from my experience they don't taste like fish yet.
- dirtyid 5y agoBest part is how little labour. One of the ethical trade offs between animal and veg for me is how labour intensive veg is. Back of envelope calculations and equivalent calorie of no mechanically harvested veg (pretty much most things except staples) harm more people than meat production. At the end of the day welfare of people > animals.
- pibechorro 5y ago100% junk food. These are mostly highly refined oils. All the unhealthy side effects with none of the nutrition, densely packed into real meat. If you want to be meat free, eat vegetables. Portabella burgers are deoicious, as is grilled eggplant, zuccini, etc. All healthy for you. The fake meat trend makes us all more unhealthy. If you have issues with meat, work on addressinf the big farm, big ranch industry which needs their agg gag protections and subcidies immediately removed.
- robert_foss 5y agoSources?
- apexalpha 5y agoAs if the Big Mac is healthy now. We need sustainable replacements for both healthy and unhealthy food. Pick your battles.
- koheripbal 5y agoI don't think anyone going to McD's have health in mind.
- ianai 5y agoThey also don’t have the environment in mind. And the price doesn’t reflect the 100x cost in water and 10x cost in emissions. Probably most people ordering at McDonalds are in search of fast, “just good enough” food. Does that mean we can’t push for improving the rest of the situation while keeping some of it the same?
- jl6 5y agoIMHO the "meatless burger" problem is 95% solved, and I would like to see similar effort turned to the "milkless cheese" problem.
- daddylongstroke 5y agoWhat's wrong with cheese now? Why is meat a "problem" and for who?
- js8 5y agoI recently came across this interesting Czech variant of meatless burger: https://drinkmana.com/products/manaburger https://drinkmana.com/products/manaburger As a meat-eater, I have yet to try it, but if there is anybody with experience, I would like to hear from you.
- herbst 5y agoI tried it (and some clones) and for whatever reason both me and my partner get a bloated stomach from it. Very likely not a mental thing as I get this too from Saitan but actually like stuff like quorn or well done tofu. On the other side I know many of the cows I eat, I don't think they actually suffer other than dying too early.
- jeff_vader 5y agoIt's the first vegan burger patty I wouldn't notice it's not meat if not told. I quite liked it. Not completely sold into that extremely processed food idea, but occasionally it's a nice change for regular vegetarian options.
- loudtieblahblah 5y ago150% more omega6s than grass fed beef.
- dvko 5y agoHonestly flabbergasted by the amount of ignorance in this thread, it was definitely not what I expected from the Hacker News crowd. - Cattle does not eat soy byproducts and soy production is definitely not driven by human consumption. Not by value, not by mass. [1] - Bison herds did not produce as much methane as today's cattle. [2] - Cattle does not strictly use land unsuitable for growing crops. Also, this completely ignores any other unwanted effects of having too much cattle (in one area). [3] - Meat is not always healthier than "processed foods", whatever the latter may actually mean. 1: https://nieuwscheckers.nl/nieuwscheckers/soja-voor-veevoer-is-geen-restproduct/ https://nieuwscheckers.nl/nieuwscheckers/soja-voor-veevoer-i... 2: https://mrdrscienceteacher.wordpress.com/2019/09/21/bison-vs-cow-greenhouse-gas-emissions/ https://mrdrscienceteacher.wordpress.com/2019/09/21/bison-vs... 3: https://www.wur.nl/upload_mm/f/8/f/86d216c6-5b3c-4058-acb3-5be496892e41_Livestock's%20long%20shadow%20FAO%202006.pdf https://www.wur.nl/upload_mm/f/8/f/86d216c6-5b3c-4058-acb3-5... When looking for facts on any of this, try to look for scientific papers instead of videos or blogs and do look-up the individual researchers and whom they work for. There's too much at stake here for the companies trying to sow doubt, as evidenced by some of the things I read here.
- TheGigaChad 5y agoAnd 100% soy.
- Grustaf 5y ago... and 500% better profit margin, I assume?
- hermannj314 5y agoI have tried Beyond Meat. My concern is changing my diet to lock in with a single vendor selling a patented food product with 30%+ margins. Is there a reason this amazing, world-changing, sustainable product isn't being sold at a reasonable or better price than ground beef? Tyson operates at 13% margin. Ground beef is 25% cheaper than Beyond. Compete on price and I will buy it; pretty simple. Otherwise, this all feels like marketing propagande to convince us to overpay to line the pocket of a greedy industrial food manufacturer.
- simtel20 5y agoThe company is still developing its products, and the extra margin reflects the fact that it hasn't yet been able to amortize the costs as Tyson etc. have with already established slaughterhouses, monopolies on the business to secure their trade and other infrastructure.
- hermannj314 5y agoExactly, I agree 100%. Uber had to operate at a loss to disrupt the taxi industry but I switched to Uber because it was always cheaper and more convenient than a cab. I can not say the same about Beyond Meat with respect to its competitors. It is unfortunate for them.
- whywhywhywhy 5y agoWhat would the value be of a company that was the sole provider of all imitation meat to America and was the only meat you could buy because of environmental laws against sale and production of legacy meat.
- Melting_Harps 5y agoWhy can't people just eat vegetables instead? Seriously, I've worked at a renown vegan and vegetarian restaurant and I never understood why people didn't just eat veg/tofu stir-fry instead of having us go through so much non-sense to re-invent a burger or a crabcake? The things took so much effort and were an inferior version to the real thing, not to mention the amount of oils necessary to keep them intact. The closest thing we had was this creole veg serve with polenta, that had tons of oil and butter in the polenta and the creole veg had been marinated in quite a bit of oil along with the spices to keep them moist throughout service. I'm an omnivore with a massive conservationist mindset, and did Biodynamic Ag. So I just intermittent fast for 16 hours a day and only eat once a day now that I don't farm any more. But I grew up on cantonese food where protein was used sparingly, and unlike most kids in the West we gladly ate tofu and vegetables all year round in our homemade meals. Eating unadulterated seasonal veg is way tastier than eating a mushroom burger with absurd amounts of oils and saturated fats and breading, smeared with vegan mayo etc... I never ate anything but the soups at work, as the rest of the menu all had so much more stuff added to it that caused a very noticeable feeling of inflammation--which is typical for vegetarians and vegans. I've ate those impossible burgers when BK launched them and did side by side with a normal whopper when they were on the 2/$5 promo for a while, and the way I ate them (I sauted onions with korean BBQ sauce and garnished with kimchi and maybe an egg if I really had time) you couldn't tell a difference. But, as a cook I was always perplexed: why put so much inputs into something (burger) that wasn't meant to be eaten more than once a week? The real issue to the obesity issue in much of the West is a lack of exercise coupled with over consumption of calories, from all sources be it veg or animal protein, instead of having a burger as a treat once a week: many people, mainly the poor, subsist on this stuff due to the race to the bottom price wars typical in fast food paired with a sedentary lifestyle. But the price factor is not as day and night as it's made out to be if you actually have an education on diets suited for your lifestyle, something entirely missing in the US. I think post-covid people need to take a very serious look at who was really affected by COVID in the West--I'm aware that India is getting hit hard and they have a mainly plant based diet, but this seems mainly due to an inability to convince it's population to follow lock-down, quarantine, or mask wearing measures and an ability to vaccinate due to an ongoing lack of trust in their government. Most of the deaths in the West were from the elderly population, and the medically ill with a remarkable concentration on people with diabetes, obesity, asthma as the co-morbidity factors.
- bronzeage 5y agoMost estimates of greenhouse gas emissions are misleading. Cows might emit methane and co2, but that carbon came from their food, and that carbon in their food was captured from the air, so it's actually a cycle without net increase in carbon in the air. That's unlike fossil fuels, which bring carbon from the ground into the air and actually increase the carbon in the air in the process. The only real net emissions in the process of creating beef are the fossil fuels burned in the process, from transportation. This distinction between real carbon emission, and carbon cycle is important because there's misguided notion of how much of a real difference it would make if people stopped eating meat. The decrease in emissions will be offset by a decrease in carbon capture from their food, and the net difference will be much less than assumed. Moreover, if the process of creating meat replacements requires more fossil fuels to be burned than the natural process of growing food and feeding cattle, it might be that alternative meats are detrimental to the environment. I haven't seen a fair comparison of the net emissions of the whole process, they always count the cows farts without discounting for the carbon capture while growing their food.
- wffurr 5y ago>> The only real net emissions in the process of creating beef are the fossil fuels burned in the process, from transportation I think you are drastically oversimplifying the carbon impact of modern agriculture. Artificial fertilizer production, irrigation, mechanized farm equipment all substantially contribute to CO2 emissions and other serious environmental impacts. Edit: Reading the EPA report, the sources I mentioned aren't even in the top 3: https://www.epa.gov/ghgemissions/sources-greenhouse-gas-emissions#:~:text=In%202019%2C%20greenhouse%20gas%20emissions,by%2012%20percent%20since%201990 https://www.epa.gov/ghgemissions/sources-greenhouse-gas-emis.... Soil management practices (aka tilling) causing N2O release, digestive methane from cattle, methane, and methane and N2O from manure handling. Fertilizer was lumped in with crop residue burning and rice cultivation in 4th place. Two of the top three are directly related to animal husbandry, and the rest are heavily impacted by the vast amount of land used to grow feed for cattle in feedlots instead of directly feeding people.
- bronzeage 5y ago
- FinanceAnon 5y agoPersonal anecdote. Initially I wasn't interested in trying the Beyond Meat burgers. But recently, I've tried it once at a hotel restaurant and actually thought they tasted alright, so ordered it a few more times after, while I was staying at the hotel. Later the hotel changed the menu and didn't sell them anymore. I've ordered a normal beef burger and actually thought they taste worse than the Beyond Meat burgers. Since coming back home, I've bought the Beyond Meat patties at my local supermarket, and been making the burgers myself.
- moviequotes 5y agoI believe in humane and sustainable treatment of animals and I do question what it would be like if everyone went vegetarian, wouldn’t that render all those animals useless so it would reduce their propagation and life? Billions of animals would have little to no use to humans-therefore they would not be farmed or bred, there would be no life for them... it doesn’t make sense, to the point it’s almost absurd to analyze.
- elchupanebre 5y agoIf it's so much more efficient then why is it sold at 2-3x the price of a normal beef burger? Where does the difference go?
- smusamashah 5y agoBiologically speaking, can we live a healthy strong life on non-meat diet?