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Nikola: How to Parlay an Ocean of Lies into a Partnership with GM

• thedudeabides5 6y ago
  Well this is a first, top of HN with no comments. I'll say it, I have no idea of validity of any of these statements, need to go read. But do remember getting weird stock pump and dump emails about this company a long time ago and it always put a bad taste in my mouth.
• eigenvalue 6y ago
  It does sound pretty bad, doesn't it? The guy certainly seems to have a problem with telling the truth. I think it's crazy to compare him to Musk, since Musk is actually extremely smart and knowledgeable about multiple areas of engineering. This other guy is just parotting the same lines, like "we are an advanced energy company that just happens to sell cars!". It's like the cargo-cult version of Tesla without any interesting technology or innovation. All that being said, I hope the author of this write-up has a good lawyer!
  • sokoloff 6y ago
    Musk has also had some interesting/uneasy relationship history with the truth. This guy does seem to be taking it quite a bit farther and leaving a lot more daylight visible between his statements and the truth.
    • saberience 6y ago
      Musk has actually delivered ground breaking tech in multiple fields though. He talks big but he usually (eventually) backs it up. No other company has managed to send rockets to space and then land them again. No other company has managed to sell fully electric cars en-masse like Tesla has done.
      • nordsieck 6y ago
        > No other company has managed to send rockets to space and then land them again. * orbit
        • grey-area 6y ago
          Not yet. The boosters don't reach orbital velocity, that's the second stage.
          • liability 6y ago
            NASA was reusing orbital 'upper stages' (although not boosters or ETs) for a few years. This little thing called a 'Space Shuttle.'
            • throwanem 6y ago
              Given how much of a dog the Shuttle was, you're not really making as strong an argument as you think here.
              • liability 6y ago
                What argument do you think I am making? It was never my intention to make an argument. I'm just pointing out that the Shuttle was a reusable rocket. I'm certainly not talking about practicality or economics. I'm not detracting from anything SpaceX has done, though it seems like you have to walk on eggshells around some fanboys who perceive mere mention of the Shuttle as an attack I guess.
                • throwanem 6y ago
                  That's a shame. I've got nothing against people dragging Musk for indulging the same fantasies I grew out of around age fourteen, I just prefer they be good at it.
                  • liability 6y ago
      • Ar-Curunir 6y ago
        It’s not Musk, but the workers that did all of that.
        • unwoundmouse 6y ago
          ???? who corralled those workers? I always see this argument, if Milton has the same ability to bring together talented people as Musk does, his bullshit will be gladly accepted - both have proven the ability to bullshit, but only one has brought together groundbreaking teams thus far
          • liability 6y ago
            The Bailey: Elon Musk is a great engineer. The Motte: Elon Musk is great at hiring engineers.
          • Ar-Curunir 6y ago
            Corralling the workers does not mean doing the technical work. they are different skill sets, and the original comment conflated the two.
      • brohee 6y ago
        They only land the first stage(s), and those don't see space...
        • tankenmate 6y ago
          The first stages regularly exceed the Karman line; the first stage's apogee is normally 10 to 20 kilometres higher than stage separation.
      • ukie 6y ago
        Yeap, like a pig with telepathic abilities /s Seriously, stop being so naive.
      • empiko 6y ago
        Yeah, he certainly invests in innovative high-tech industries and I like that a lot. But he also overpromises a lot, e.g. coast-to-coast tesla autopilot (probably not happening anytime soon) or something actually useful with the neurochip (also years ahead). some of his remarks on AI also tells me that he has a feeling that he knows everything about everything but that might not be exactly the case. he is a smart guy and he got rich basically by having a really good electronic payment system. but that does not make him a universal engineer/scientist/philosopher.
        • gxon 6y ago
          “Shoot for the stars but if you happen to miss shoot for the moon instead.” There's something to be said about the value of setting wildly unachievable goals. It takes you further than you might have thought possible.
      • deleted 6y ago
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      • untog 6y ago
        There’s always danger of “smelling your own farts” syndrome, though. Like the whole submarine thing: it didn’t work! No doubt that Musk is very smart and knowledgable in the areas he has excelled. But a few times now he seemed to have decided that this means he’s smart in a whole load of other areas too, without much evidence. Another example is almost any time he talks about AI.
        • nickik 6y ago
          Not to go threw this again but ... if you actually read in detail what was going on, the 'submarine' was developed as a contingency only for the smallest child. It was developed because expert at the scene were not sure they could get the kid out. It was a worst case contingency plan for 1 kid from the very beginning (that's what it was sized for). Of course in the media it was all like 'Elon rides in on spaceship and promises to build submarine to save everybody'. And we don't know if it 'didn't work' as it was not tried, because the smallest kid was eventually brought threw with the same methods. The whole point here is that Elon wanted to help but clearly he couldn't help with diving, so with a team of engineers they tried to work on a small part of the problem. Only to then get shit on relentlessly for working something out of the box. It was similar to when everybody was shitting on Elon because apparently he delivered the wrong products to help with Covid. Later turned out that Tesla had excellent contact with doctors in China because of their production facilities in China and focused on delivering what doctors in China told them was useful. All in all there is no way around it, Elon has started many successful companies and pretty much all of them have done some or many impressive things. Very often with the experts in the field claiming his plans were impossible or buissness suicide. He might say something wrong once in a while, but you better actually listen what exactly he is saying and why, before dismissing it claiming he is just smelling his farts.
      • JJMcJ 6y ago
        No other company? Nissan Leaf? Close to 1/2 million sold.
        • ordinaryperson 6y ago
          The Leaf came years after Tesla and was a cautious, follow-the-leader side bet by Nissan. The Tesla Roadster was a radical re-thinking of the automobile -- an industry that had been stagnating for over 50 years -- and an all-in investment in electric vehicle future by an eccentric billionaire. Nowhere near as bold or life-or-death in either financial outlay or feature design. Do a side-by-side feature comparison of the original Leaf and Roadster to see just how far apart the two were in thinking, design and ambition. The Leaf was and is essentially the belief that Tesla's vehicles would be too expensive for the average customer so Nissan could ride Tesla's tailwind to sell a more affordable model. And they have, and that's fine. But it boggles my mind when people imply that Nissan's efforts in electric vehicles are in any way a reasonable comparison to what Tesla has done.
          • sokoloff 6y ago
            The LEAF however is a fine rebuttal to the GGP claim “No other company has managed to sell fully electric cars en-masse like Tesla has done.”
    • deleted 6y ago
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    • fossuser 6y ago
      Not close to the same thing. Musk has a history of building and shipping successful products company after company in spite of a constant amount of people saying he would fail. (X.com, Paypal, Tesla, SpaceX, Neuralink, Boring). Nikola is a complete fraud that collected money from know-nothing investors riding on EVs and Tesla's name. They haven't shipped anything and probably never will. Bizarrely positively portrayed in the press alongside negative Tesla stories - I imagine because it's good for clicks? I find it hard to believe the SPAC that brought them public wasn't solely for the purpose of allowing them to steal as much as they could from the public before they shut down. No idea how well they played it - I guess we'll see if anyone ends up in prison. At least he got to con his way into a fancy ranch in the mean time: https://www.latimes.com/business/real-estate/story/2019-11-14/nikola-motor-head-trevor-milton-2000-acre-utah-ranch https://www.latimes.com/business/real-estate/story/2019-11-1... People like this make the world worse for the rest of us (and make it harder for honest startups to raise money).
      • neolog 6y ago
        Do neuralink or boring have successful products? or just demos of already existing tech?
        • deleted 6y ago
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        • kortilla 6y ago
          Demos of existing tech are even better than what Nikola has.
          • pas 6y ago
            In general yes, but the Solar Roof Tile thing is still vaporware despite the demo.
        • adventured 6y ago
          > Do neuralink or boring have successful products? or just demos of already existing tech? Are complex, difficult, expensive products or services usually built and launched quickly? Do they occasionally require long cycles of iteration? Maybe the iPhone should have been thrown away at version one. It's 2005, does the Falcon 9 exist yet? Geez, we're waiting. It's obviously all vaporware, a fraud, they could hardly launch the Falcon 1 without it exploding every time. It's 2009, does the Model S exist yet? Geez, we're waiting. It's obviously all vaporware, a fraud, they'll never mass-manufacture electric vehicles.
    • superfrank 6y ago
      I'm no Musk fanboy and this isn't meant to be a defense of Musk, but in my opinion, Musk exaggerates and over promises. He'll say intentionally vague things and let people fill in the blanks and not correct them when they are wrong. It's all a little slimy and grey, but there's usually at least a modicum of truth to the things he says or he at least believes what he's saying at the time he says it. From what I've heard recently Nikola just seems like straight up lies and fraud from trying to piggy back on the success of Tesla. Neither are good, but one is much worse in my opinion.
      • outworlder 6y ago
        > Musk exaggerates and over promises True. But he also delivers on most of them. What I find most optimistic about his statements are basically the timeframes. Self-driving is taking longer than initially thought, and so is Mars. But there's been major progress across multiple (difficult) industries. We can't compare him with the copycat company (not even the name is original!)
        • superfrank 6y ago
          I mean, if he gives a timeline and the timeline is wrong, he's still wrong. Obviously people deserve a bit of leeway because shit happens, but it seems to keep happening. In my mind that either means he's stupid (not learning from his mistakes) or deceptive. Personally, I don't think he's stupid, so...
    • marvin 6y ago
      You're pointing at exactly what allows a skilled conman to succeed: To a casual, or even non-expert observer, the difference between a genius and a skilled impersonation of a genius will appear very small. You might not be able to make the distinction, and erroneously consider them equivalent.
    • pfarnsworth 6y ago
      The FTC should look into Musk's statements about self-driving, how it's almost done, etc. All that does is trick Tesla owners into paying for the $8000 upgrade for a product that will never, ever come, guaranteed. It just won't happen and he keeps peddling the product like it's only a year away, for the last several years. It's outright fraud and he should be taken to task for it. And for the record, I'm a Tesla-owner.
    • risyachka 6y ago
      If you set an unrealistic goal that you won't accomplish but try really hard to reach it, in most cases your end result and the progress you made along the way will be far far better than when you set a realistic goal and reach it. I always set unrealistic bars for myself. And in the end I get more from not reaching my goal than I would from reaching a lower one.
    • AzzieElbab 6y ago
      the big difference between a pitch and a fraud is eventual intention. Seriously, even company name implies fraud by association
  • perl4ever 6y ago
    It sounds bad, but I thought of another way to look at it. Nikola's product is the brand of being a hip, "with it" electric car company, like Tesla, but different, and they are selling it to GM. It's a simple straightforward win-win, and everything that looks like fakery is beside the point. It has solid value to GM precisely because of the inflated, arguably irrational value of Tesla. Now, I'm not investing, but it did occur to me to look at it that way. They are not actually in the same business as Tesla or GM. They're laundering cool factor.
  • coliveira 6y ago
    I don't see it as very different from Tesla, since when they started there was no real technology to talk about. The CEO of Tesla is also well known to be untrustworthy with his promises, having even being formally investigated by the SEC for stock price manipulation. I don't know the future, but there is a possibility that they will also develop the needed technology to make it all work.
    • orestarod 6y ago
      I have met people like Nikola's CEO, and I bet my dear life that nothing will ever be delivered, except if the technology exists to completely - I mean exactly 100% - outsource it using the cash given by others and slap a logo on the result, failing in the end anyway. When you see a company so hell bent and putting so much effort in tricking investors AND actively avoiding doing any real work, you know what's happening. If you, and more importantly people with money to invest, are persuaded that "it's not different from Tesla", that's a victory for Nikola, and their sole source of income.
    • nickik 6y ago
      > since when they started there was no real technology to talk about That is flat false, making a automotive battery out of laptop batteries was quite a technology development. They also made their own engines and inverters from the beginning. > The CEO of Tesla is also well known to be untrustworthy with his promises Actually the opposite, it is well known that when he says something its very likely going to happen. As most of the things he say, no matter how crazy to turn out to actually happen. Arguable there is no other human alive in the world today, that when he say 'We are gone do X' that more people believe could actually do it. > having even being formally investigated by the SEC for stock price manipulation. He wasn't investigated for stock price manipulation, he was investigated for improper communication to stock holders. > I don't know the future, but there is a possibility that they will also develop the needed technology to make it all work. So even after 10 years of consistently laying every year, announcing dozens of technologies that all turn out to be totally fake you still think they can do it. That seems beyond utterly blue-eye to me.
  • f00zz 6y ago
    He even ripped off the company's name...
    • _fat_santa 6y ago
      This might be a coincidence but I thought it was funny that the NKLA stock symbol mimicks Tesla's TSLA symbol.
  • ghgdynb1 6y ago
    I really like the cargo cult note. There are a lot of people building runways in the jungle hoping planes will land and bring cargo, so to speak, in tech. These people can and do make it into public markets (see Nikola) but it’s even more prevalent in private markets. It’s more important than ever to have technical people in private equity, not just VC.
  • heimatau 6y ago
    > The guy certainly seems to have a problem with telling the truth. I actually disagree with this take but it gets close to the problem with Trevor Milton. Trevor is very unpolished. I'm skeptical of how detailed he gets with all the in's and out's with the technologies he's trying to innovate and make more efficient. What's going for him is a few things, he's partnering with many companies which means he's mitigating the company's risk. Now that Musk created the market, others want to join in and try whatever route that sticks. Musk on the other hand, speaks in more precise words when describing a topic. Musk does sell vaporware but...eventually (behind 'schedule') Musk delivers. This lazy focus on manifesting a specific vision what what Musk is doing. He'll let the entire engineering department go, if they aren't willing to work hard at making the future a reality. Going full circle, the energy density of hydrogen fuel cell is the future. I don't see how it's not. All you need now is for Toyota to join forces with them and you'll have an unstoppable force that will help reduce emission drastically and at a large scale. The technology is very close (1, maybe 2 iterations away) and I doubt they are far away from a breakthrough. I don't believe Milton could've focused on Hydrogen semi's prior to the success of Tesla, he doesn't have that skill but...he's making due with what he's after. He's also being wise at selling electric trucks too because the market is primed for it (read: Musk primed it). In conclusion, there are a lot of investors deep into Nikola. If Milton gets in the way of bringing this realistic engineering challenge to market, the investors will change it up. I'm not certain of how much voting say that Milton has but...it's a good sign that he stepped back from CEO role. He's way too sloppy with his words but...he brings the hype and investors are still wanting his hype. It's messy but nothing worth doing is ever blameless. P.S. I don't own either stock. Nor any energy/battery/car/electric stocks. I'm just interested in advancing our technology.
    • bayesianbot 6y ago
      What possibly could they have to offer for Toyota? It doesn't look like they did any work or even had anyone capable of researching hydrogen cells working for them. Instead of advancing technology, they might have taken funding and credibility actual companies could have used. The founder has so far answered just one real question on twitter, about what they were going to bring to the GM produced car: "100% a badger. We will use common parts for example; tires, window regulators, hvac, brakes & batteries to drive down cost, but the badger is completely a badger. The infotainment, displays, software, ota, app, cab, interior, user experience, sales, service, warranty etc is ours" That's a long way to say they'll use their software and sales team.
• baltimore 6y ago
  Why do I cringe when I see "at a high rate of speed" where "at high speed" should be?
  • sneak 6y ago
    Same reason I cringe when people use “as per” where a single “as” or “per” will do (per means as), “thusly” instead of “thus”, and, my personal anti-favorite, “individual” to mean “person”. It’s a special kind of pretentious language that people use to make them seem more authoritative or accurate/deliberate. It’s manipulative.
    • sokoloff 6y ago
      For me "leverage" instead of "use" is like nails on a chalkboard.
      • dnautics 6y ago
        - usage instead of "use" (they are different words) - quantify/fication instead of "measure/ment" - problematic instead of "a problem" - such that instead of "that" (the correct usage is as a phrase that comes from math proofs, "pick an x such that y")
        • sneak 6y ago
          > problematic instead of "a problem" I think this one comes out of a fear of or desire to avoid confrontational language in general in the US. Something can be called problematic without declaring “a problem exists”. What, you got a problem?! :)
      • ssanders82 6y ago
        "utilize"
  • bonestamp2 6y ago
    It's the same for me when someone says, or writes, "as of late" instead of "lately". Sometimes people think that more words make their writing more professional, but it's usually the opposite. Sentences that are more polished and concise are the hallmark of professional writers.
• dugditches 6y ago
  >On the morning of September 8, 2020, Nikola announced a strategic manufacturing partnership with General Motors, sending shares of both companies sharply higher. Interesting that GM seems to be making a lot of moves at once. https://www.cnbc.com/2020/09/03/gm-and-honda-to-estabish-strategic-alliance-in-north-america.html https://www.cnbc.com/2020/09/03/gm-and-honda-to-estabish-str...
• thrill 6y ago
  Hindenburg Research is a well known short seller.
  • the-dude 6y ago
    To be fair : they explicity state their position ( they are indeed short ) at the end of the article.
    • Someone 6y ago
      It’s before a zillion background addendums, so not quite at the end think but it would be fairer to do so a lot earlier. Reason? I think most readers would stop reading this (IMO) badly written and badly formatted avalanche of statements (which may or may not be true, but the form in which it is presented doesn’t give me confidence that it is) before hitting that info.
      • smabie 6y ago
        You should see some of Citron Research's stuff. Absolutely amazing.
    • codys 6y ago
      They also disclose immediately after the summary at the start (bullet points).
    • guardiangod 6y ago
      Initial Disclosure: After extensive research, we have taken a short position in shares of Nikola Corp. This report represents our opinion, and we encourage every reader to do their own due diligence. Please see our full disclaimer at the bottom of the report. This is within 5 minutes of reading so I don't know where you got the 'end of the article' from. (I read the report this morning so they didn't added it after ward.)
      • adrianmonk 6y ago
        > don't know where you got the 'end of the article' from They didn't say only at the end. Near the top, the article itself even says to look at the end: "Please see our full disclaimer at the bottom of the report."
• ctvo 6y ago
  I find the audacity of the fraud hilarious. They pulled a truck up a hill and let it roll down unpowered, using it in a video demonstrating their new EV technology when nothing worked. Who does that.
  • swyx 6y ago
    i dunno - here is the video in question: https://blurbsurfer.com/index.php/video/p9reimwb https://blurbsurfer.com/index.php/video/p9reimwb that really look like a hill to you?
    • williamscales 6y ago
      Yeah, that actually does look like a hill. It appears to me the road rises up to the ridge seen in the background.
      • ojosilva 6y ago
        Can anyone pinpoint the location? Then we could clear this up. Seems like relevant evidence on the whole scheme, if that's really the case.
        • crisnoble 6y ago
          The article has the exact location.
        • williamscales 6y ago
          The article authors did find the location and there is a 3% grade on the road: https://www.google.com/maps/@40.5208858,-112.5008986,3a,75y,186.3h,98.7t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sR8A6qOF2ANQDuBk7eYmBMw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en-US https://www.google.com/maps/@40.5208858,-112.5008986,3a,75y,...
    • revscat 6y ago
      Read the article. It discusses how they tested with the same road, and were able to put an SUV in neutral and achieve a cruising speed of 53mph using that same road.
• shajznnckfke 6y ago
  I’m not big on trading individual stocks, but I own a bunch of long puts on Nikola. I don’t know any other company that seems as likely to go to zero (other than companies like Hertz, where everyone knows so the options are priced appropriately).
  • toomuchtodo 6y ago
    Be careful with those puts. It’s entirely possible to be right and still not be able to close out your position because the underlying is halted/delisted.
    • rohitb91 6y ago
      The market can stay irrational longer than you can stay solvent I think the flood of retail investors with disposable income and government benefits is leading to absurdities in market pricing. See: Hertz skyrocketing after announcing bankruptcies. After all, the stock has dropped 90%, how much lower can it go right? Well, to the new investors, all the way to 0.
      • URSpider94 6y ago
        This is not even that. The parent is talking about the case where the stock does indeed go to zero and get de-listed from the exchange, in other words the market becomes rational. At that point, you're holding put options that are ridiculously in-the-money, but you can't execute or sell them to take your profit because the underlying stock is gone. So, your highly valuable stash of Nikola puts becomes worthless ...
        • mdorazio 6y ago
          Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure that's not how it works. If it gets delisted, you would buy the pinks to get the shares. The stock doesn't just disappear when it's delisted.
      • deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]
• wyxuan 6y ago
  They said that they would release a report on a well known company but this is a little disappointing. I think everyone knew that Nikola was pretty shady to begin with. After all, it’s not everyday when the company sells merch that revolves around their trading symbol
• dzdt 6y ago
  Does anyone have a contrary spurce of positive evidence that Nikola honestly does have valuable working technology? I have not made any effort to dig, but what little I had seen of Nikola so far seemed more hype than substance so the accusations here seem pretty believable.
  • pmorici 6y ago
    The most charitable thing I've seen is some of the videos that came from when Trevor invited several popular Tesla oriented YouTube and Twitter personalities to Nikola HQ for a day long tour and Q&A. Sean Mitchell in particular has a pretty even handed take. [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L6R5PuEl028 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L6R5PuEl028 [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9arSTJLsa_8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9arSTJLsa_8
• m3kw9 6y ago
  Check this one: “ elaborate ruse—Nikola had the truck towed to the top of a hill on a remote stretch of road and simply filmed it rolling down the hill.”
• clomond 6y ago
  And the thread of the sweater gets pulled... While not shocking given the previous track record of Trevor's previous enterprises - the most likely outcome here is that it will get very, very ugly. He also already 'cashed out' millions of dollars to buy a 32.5 million dollar ranch - one of the largest residential properties in Utah's history. [1] Tesla's run up and general optimism around EVs seems to have triggered a gold rush of sorts, effecting other EV pureplays' stock prices (ex. NIO) regardless of progress and actual state of the technology. While in theory I am in strong support of new financing models to bring new technologies to market(ex. these Special Purpose Acquisition Companies - SPACs) I am very concerned that if even a portion of the alleged is true, this could poison this financing route for legitimate businesses and the sector overall. A camp in the investment industry even think Tesla is a fraud, and this would only harm the narrative and long term mission of Tesla. It would have been great if they actually took the money, utilized it with a plan and executed on the plan to help with electrification - the premise for which I think many retail investors have become involved. Even if there was no fraud, I was always skeptical of their plan (smelled like vaporware to me) and their adamance about hydrogen as an energy storage medium without sufficient discussion on electrolyzer technology or how those unit economics work always struck me as big red flags. Seems like Nikola's plan was to combine a bunch of off the shelf parts existing from other sources into a product, in that case - where is the technology? So much of it with just the bit of digging and what I hear about it has made me skeptical. Probably best to stay as far away as possible and see where the chips fall. I do wish them the best though, assuming there was no fraud. [1] https://www.latimes.com/business/real-estate/story/2019-11-14/nikola-motor-head-trevor-milton-2000-acre-utah-ranch https://www.latimes.com/business/real-estate/story/2019-11-1...
  • dylan604 6y ago
    >A camp in the investment industry even think Tesla is a fraud, At this point in Tesla's history, how is it a fraud? It is manufacturing and selling cars. It is building batteries. I can see where some may think it is not living up to the hype/promise of returns, but they are actually making and selling product. Yet people are still claiming fraud?
    • 6y ago
• swyx 6y ago
  nikola stock only down 11% today, market cap 14bn. is this report credible at all? why is the market not taking this more seriously?
  • Apocryphon 6y ago
    This report only came out today, and it is very lengthy, and its claims likely need independent verification.
  • fred_is_fred 6y ago
    The stock market is not and never has been rational.
  • nickik 6y ago
    Because Nikola has been excellent at selling their story to a broad set of people using social media and youtube. And many of these don't follow reports like this, plus the anti-short backlash from the hardcore fans and investors is strong with reports like this. They are 'the next Tesla' but 'better' because they use 'hydrogen'. And every 'blogboy' knows that hydrogen is the real technology of the future. So when a untypical CEO from a Tesla like company makes big claims and has amazing presentation and videos to back it up, many buy it. Nikola did clever things like suing Tesla over their truck design, to get massive exposure threw the Tesla hype machine with the moto bad publicity is publicity. They consistently try to get into all the Tesla and EV influences and made it a point of trying to get them onboard. Trever Milon often competing on Tesla, comparing themselves to Tesla and so on. He literally says things like 'There are few people who can out-Elon Elon but I'm one of them'. That sort of talk sells well. Nikola for 4 years consistently trying to insert itself into the conversation and that has really payed of for them. They have never done anything but get mentioned right along companies established car makers. In reality Nikola is far less of a company then Rivian, but much better known.
• Ecstatify 6y ago
  There seems to be such negativity surrounding electric vehicles in the media. I wonder if there’s a vested interest deliberately trying to create this narrative. Electric vehicles are definitely the future.
  • ponker 6y ago
    Calling a fraud a fraud isn’t antipathy towards electric cars. It’s like saying that someone criticizing Donald Trump is against white men.
  • outworlder 6y ago
    EVs are the future. Hydrogen powered ones? Most likely not, unless the fossil fuel industry manages to convince everyone they are still needed.
    • Hypx 6y ago
      FCEVs are the future. BEVs are a temporary stopgap.
• paulpan 6y ago
  Anyone else getting Theranos vibes? As others have stated here, Hindenburgresearch is a known short-seller and so has an self interest to drive down the stock price of Nikola. Also it was only yesterday that GM announced taking an 11% in the company for $2B. Surely GM has done their due diligence before throwing a couple of billions in? https://www.cnn.com/2020/09/08/business/nikola-gm-badger-electric-vehicles/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2020/09/08/business/nikola-gm-badger-ele... That all said, everyone also thought Theranos was legitimate until they were exposed to be not.
  • kolbe 6y ago
    > Surely GM has done their due diligence before throwing a couple of billions in? I'm not sure there's any signal embedded in the knowledge that a company as incompetent as GM has done due diligence.
  • yangchi 6y ago
    I think you read the $2B upside down. Nikola paid GM $2B worth of stocks (11% of the company) to have GM manufacture its vehicles, not the other way around
    • catominor 6y ago
      In addition to $700M from Nikola to cover the expenses of the work that GM is supposed/going to do for them.
    • paulpan 6y ago
      You're right I misread it - Nikola is paying GM. Sounds like a no-brainer for GM to accept.
      • stu2b50 6y ago
        Worst case, and let's be honest, modal case, Nikola goes under and GM has tech and parts that they can just use on their own anyway in their electric vehicles.
• foolfoolz 6y ago
  this is interesting. i worked for someone like this who was CEO of a YC backed startup. everything was “in progress” but really hadn’t started. the stuff that was “finished” was ongoing or never happened. it got to the point where every line in a meeting about plans i had to question to find the real story. you can get very far bullshitting your way
• codeisawesome 6y ago
  How do we tell that this research has 'teeth'? Sounds super juicy if true! Would there be a 'ticket number' of some kind for an SEC complaint that Hindenburg filed?
• jariel 6y ago
  The fraud is not interesting. The fact that big companies and Big CEO's are stupid and incompetent is the interesting thing. Everyone who worked on this deal at GM should be fired along with the CEO. I once worked at a 'Big Company' that thought about buying n Mp3 player. Everyone loved their CEO, their pitch, the box, product looked slick. We were going to buy it. I took it home and tried it and it was garbage. Literally our M&A team, execs, due diligence and nobody bothered to fing try the dam product* and use a little bit of common sense to ascertain whether it was 'quality' or not. This was not fraud, and of a much smaller scale, but it's just incredible how big the 'blind spot' so many executives have. Edit: I said executives were 'stupid' they generally are not. They just have gaping holes in their abilities, that enough ego doesn't allow them to even see themselves. It's understandable they don't want to look weak, but insane that they don't do background/deep checks. If I were a CEO I would include 'product & IP validation' right up front as part of due diligence - not just by 'accredited people' (because you can't get a 'CA' in tech) but by people you trust. Edit 2: "Trevor has appointed his brother, Travis, as “Director of Hydrogen Production/Infrastructure” to oversee this critical part of the business. Travis’s prior experience looks to have largely consisted of pouring concrete driveways and doing subcontractor work on home renovations in Hawaii." Oh please make this into a Tiger King Netflix special ...
  • pwillia7 6y ago
    Maybe we'll get a Good Will Hunting version. Concrete pourer solves what billions of dollars and academics could not for years. I would watch it.
• avolcano 6y ago
  "Hindenburg Research" is already an excellent name for a short seller, but in this case, they are short selling a company creating cars powered by hydrogen fuel cells. 2020 continues to be an incredibly on-the-nose year.
• tempsy 6y ago
  This interview from April 2019 was the thing that convinced me he was a fraud. https://www.truckinginfo.com/330475/whats-behind-the-grille-of-the-new-nikola-hydrogen-electric-truck https://www.truckinginfo.com/330475/whats-behind-the-grille-... This gem right here: > "The entire infotainment system is a HTML 5 super computer," Milton said. "That's the standard language for computer programmers around the world, so using it let's us build our own chips. And HTML 5 is very secure. Every component is linked on the data network, all speaking the same language. It's not a bunch of separate systems that somehow still manage to communicate." This guy does not know what HTML is. What he has described is not what HTML would be used for. And I'm supposed to believe he's some sort of mastermind behind some new age hydrogen/electric truck?
  • jamsiedaly 6y ago
    The bigger issue here is that this man was able to convince "industry veterans" to give him massive amounts of money. You can see through him in a heart beat because you're technically savvy. Clearly the people running these automakers are not.
    • deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
    • awb 6y ago
      There might not be many options for investors that want exposure to the EV market but missed the boat on Tesla. I'm sure plenty thought it could be the Lyft to Tesla's Uber. It will really only fail when the money dries up. As long as they can keep raising money, they can keep the fantasy alive long enough to lure in other investors.
    • taurath 6y ago
      The domestic auto industry is a jobs program not a real business.
      • Avicebron 6y ago
        Which everyone should be made aware of, because it's worth asking how did it get that way, and how do we prevent other industries from suffering this fate. It's been modern economic theory that has encouraged this stripping of US industry...unfortunately it's a lauded theory.
• vsskanth 6y ago
  So it seems GM didn't really give any money to Nikola ? The article mentions they get 2 billion equivalent in stocks for non-cash contributions and 700 million in reimbursements from Nikola.
  • deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
• SigmundA 6y ago
  I have been watching Nikola for years wondering why anyone believes its BS, I didn't realize the deception was this blatant and deep, I guess like many I didn't do real due diligence, but I didn't invest millions in the company either. Very sad and disheartening to see it continue and get further investment, just make me think that telling the truth does't pay, selling lies does, fake it till you make it taken to the extreme, similar to Tharanos. The over promise under deliver approach Musk uses annoy's me but there is something real there, real results, Nikloa is literally riding on a play of a name of another company. At least Musk recognizes the issues with Hydrogen and he obviously has a grasp of the technical issues: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yFPnT-DCBVs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yFPnT-DCBVs
  • hinkley 6y ago
    It took me years and years to get a story that made sense about Corbin Motors and why they flamed out making the Sparrow and trying to bring out the Merlin. It will probably surprise nobody here that the Pareto Principle applies to large scale manufacturing. Hand building a vehicle is 10% of the work, and the other 90% is a very different kind of work and skillset that is easy to drown in. A bunch of things you just figured out how to do well, you need to stop doing entirely because a machine or a vendor should be doing them for you. Along with all the people and equipment you acquired to do it. You have to stomach writing off a bunch of equipment, swallowing your pride and taking advice from people who have no sweat equity in your company. And as a cherry on top, you probably get to be the asshole that has to fire John Henry, who has been here since before the machines.
• mberning 6y ago
  Reminds me of the GE hit piece appearing on gefraud.com that tanked the stock and is now nowhere to be seen. Nor is the guy that authored it. I’m sure they made out like a bandit on their options.
• syspec 6y ago
  I was wondering, how on earth this company even came to be listed on NASDAQ, since they have no products and no revenue. So I looked it up and basically it looks like they acquired a company which was ALREADY listed on NASDAQ then renamed it. > In March 2020, Nikola announced its plans to merge with VectoIQ[10] Acquisition Corporation[11] (ticker VTIQ), a publicly traded special purpose acquisition company run by former General Motors Co. executive Steve Girsky. This resulted in the combined company being listed on the NASDAQ exchange with the NKLA ticker symbol.[12] Nikola’s stock began trading on June 4, 2020, a day after the merger was completed - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikola_Corporation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikola_Corporation
  • the_jeremy 6y ago
    AKA a reverse takeover[0] [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reverse_takeover https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reverse_takeover
    • syspec 6y ago
      Thanks, I learned something new today!
  • stu2b50 6y ago
    >So I looked it up and basically it looks like they acquired a company which was ALREADY listed on NASDAQ then renamed it Not just any company, a Spac. Special purpose acquisition company. That's their purpose, they're not actually companies, but blank check investment vehicles. It's a way to go public without an IPO. And unlike reverse mergers with actual companies spacs are clean since they're shell companies. They're neither shady nor unusual, though.
    • glangdale 6y ago
      Reverse Takeovers (RTOs) are super-common in Australia. A lot of broken mining companies whose exploration came up blank wind up sitting around still with a symbol on the ASX. This is used as an easy way to list - although the prognosis is not normally good (i.e. anyone evading the scrutiny of a listing starts a bit behind the 8-ball). Given how expensive and complex listing is, it's not the worst thing in the world.
• axiom92 6y ago
  From the link: Nikola’s Director of Hydrogen Production/Infrastructure Is Trevor Milton’s Little Brother, Who Worked Paving Driveways in Hawaii Prior To Joining at Nikola Nikola’s Chief Engineer: A Background Largely in Software Development and Pinball Machine Repair
  • strikelaserclaw 6y ago
    i mean, u gotta admire something about the guy, to me this is hilarious.
  • divbzero 6y ago
    The younger brother actually delivered value to customers by pouring concrete and paving driveways, in contrast to Nikola’s record to date.
• yaacovtp 6y ago
  Why were tweets deleted all the way back to June?
• hn_throwaway_99 6y ago
  Totally reminds me of Theranos. "Charismatic" (I put that in quotes because they're only charismatic to a certain group of people, I think the more "mechanical" thinkers like myself view them about as charismatic as a used-car salesman) founder who the industry touts as "the next Jobs/Musk" excels at sounding like a ton of bullshit but is able to convince well-heeled investors to pony up a lot of money due to FOMO.
  • defterGoose 6y ago
    "Huckster" is the word you're groping for, I think.
• ChuckMcM 6y ago
  The sad part for me is that this reads like a profile of a "successful, new age, startup entrepreneur" relying on the 'fake it till you make it' mantra betting other people's money on the outside chance they can figure out how to do what they claim they already do before everyone else catches on. I would have expected that GM's due diligence team would uncover this sort of stuff prior to taking an 11% position in the company. Which proves to me, once again, that the way to get rich is to defraud people with a lot of money, and not a lot of insight.
  • kjksf 6y ago
    In fairness, GM got $2 billion worth of Nikolai stock for future vague work. The work they are supposed to be doing for Nikolai is the same work they'll be doing for their own EV trucks (that they'll have to have at some point) so you can look at it as GM being paid by Nikolai for R&D. I would still not do this deal if I was GM. The probability of Nikolai bursting in the flames of disgrace and litigation before they'll pay GM for anything is 99%. GM can only sell 30% of stock after a 1 year (and additional 30% each year after) so by the time they can cash in, it'll likely be worthless. And Mary Barra will have to explain how she got taken by an obvious fraud. It might end up costing her a job.
  • nickik 6y ago
    GM likely knows this. They didn't buy 11% in the company. If you actually read the agreement its basically Nikola buys lots and lots and lots of stuff from GM and they pay part of that with that stock, but they also have to pay significantly in cash as well. GM also would retain the right to all the fuel credits and those could be valuable. If Nikola is successful, GM profits with a great deal. If its not GM doesn't actually lose much. only the time it engineers spent on cooperation with Nikola and potentially some tooling cost.
  • deckard1 6y ago
    > I would have expected that GM's due diligence team would uncover this sort of stuff prior to taking an 11% position in the company. It's GM, so it wouldn't shock me. But as others have pointed out, the deal isn't quite as bad as it sounds. > relying on the 'fake it till you make it' mantra betting other people's money on the outside chance they can figure out how to do what they claim they already do before everyone else catches on. This really does seem like the de facto path to unicorn status. SoftBank and WeWork, Theranos. I would also throw in the soon-to-IPO Palantir and Snowflake. Both seem to be held in the air on pure hype on incredibly lackluster fundamentals. Uber is a decade old now and no one knows their end game. They seem to either be holding out for all taxi services to die off so they can start fleecing their customers, or on pie-in-the-sky hopes of a self-driving fleet of vehicles (owned and insured by who, I wonder?) I personally don't see anything "free market" about these obvious market manipulations via heavy subsidies. This sort of winner-take-all behavior will likely hurt consumers and choice in the long run. But back to your main point, this is just the Minimum Viable Product nonsense taken to its logical extreme. How often have you seen the advice to just toss together a demo, fake website, or whatever and collect email addresses and/or get customers paying real money upfront for a product that is pure vaporware? It's the very first thing people tell you to do to verify a market. I have yet to see a startup that wasn't a little bullshit. Perception is reality today. That's what all these "fake it til you make it", "move fast, break things" type of people remind you, relentlessly.
• nickik 6y ago
  I totally agree here. Following this space for a long time, Nikola has always been by far the shadiest of all these companies. They were one of the very few companies that claimed revolutionary battery technology. This is an instant red flag and a huge one. New revolutionary batteries don't just just happen. Sila Nanotechnology, is only replacing anode materials, and they have been at it since 2012 and don't expect to be in cars until 2025. Quantum Scape, who want to make Solid State Li Anode batteries is not gone be in cars until 2025. There were a number of other companies who also did this 'we have revolutionary batteries'. Some actually believed they did. Dyson is a good example, they wanted to create a car, and to achieve their targets, they invested lots of money including in batteries. However since they are a honest company they eventually admired that they couldn't hit their engineering targets and abandoned the project. A Nikola competitor in the arena of bullshit spinning is Henry Fisker. His first company made lots of nonsense claims, including about batteries, but unlike Nikola they actually went threw the trouble and made some investment in future battery tech, just not credibly commercial ones. They went bankrupt. His new company is right back to the old bullshit spinning way but they have lower their ambitions and just open say they want to buy the VM MEB platform, now they are gone be the most 'sustainable' among other claims. As a comparison, Tesla 'revolutionary' technology at battery day will likely not be a silicon anode or a lithium anode, those are simply not ready for commercial use. Revolutionary battery technology would be 10-20% energy density improvment and 30-50% longer lifetime maybe 2x faster production speed, and Tesla has been working on this for 5-10 years and have spent many 100s of millions acquiring a set of companies and having research agreement with multiple universities that all work in collaboration. In total I would guess to really bring a new cell to market at scale, you are talking 5-15 years and 5 billion $, and that is still with basically conventional cell chemistry. Much of the same can be said about Fuel Cells. Toyota, Honda and also the Koreans have been banging their head against the fuel cell wall for 30 years, with heaps of government money to back them up. They know they can't make it work, even with their massive resources. In personal vehicles they are not competitive against EVs in the slights (while also not being an improvement in CO2 compared to Gas) while in trucks they are not competitive with Disel or Natural Gas, and soon electric trucks are gone take the majority of routes over as nobody can compete with their price on these short and mid distant routes. But Nikola are gone make it, and not for a geographically small place like Japan, but for the gigantic US without much government support either. Another topic is that of product announcements. If you follow Nikola for many years, or you go back to 2016 and look at their announcements there is a funny effect that happens. People can say about Elon Time what they like, but mostly the products actually do come out and often are improved over the original announcement in a number of ways. Nikola shows the exact opposite pattern. It goes something like this, announce revolutionary new product but its 3-5 years out. Then progressively lower the specs over time, while pushing the time to market out further. The hype for anything EV related has been insane. Quantum Scape is a fine company for example, but they have valuation that is insane for a company that is not gone make real money for many years and not gone make profits for many more after that. They essentially have a technology that requires a totally new manufacturing system, while competitors like Sila can put their materials in existing facilities claim the same level of improvements. I wouldn't expose myself to a unique technology with so much competition There are tons of EV startups and they differ widely from Lucid, Rivian being serious companies step by step putting in place a solid car company. Dynamic companies like NIO coming out of China. And there are the bottom feeders like Nikola, Fisker and others that surf on the hype. This is gone be a massive market shakeout with Tesla being the leader hunted by everybody. Slow moving giants like VW, Toyota and so on finally realizing whats happening and taking methodical step after step. And a massive wave of startups from around the world, especially China trying to be next next big thing. Its gone be interesting to say the least.
• Animats 6y ago
  Now we understand how GM paid a billion dollars for Cruise when all they had was a road-follower, something GM already had.
• deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
• evo_9 6y ago
  Reminds me of Magic Leap but even their bullshit wasn’t this thick. At least they shipped something I guess.
• extremeMath 6y ago
  Worse GM may be a zombie company. Your taxes will always be supporting their business.
• jdhn 6y ago
  It's my opinion that GM felt forced to enter into this partnership with Nikola because Ford was able to get into bed with Rivian when GM pulled out of that deal. For GM's sake, I hope that these guys are completely wrong.
  • stu2b50 6y ago
    GM will be fine if they go under. Nikola is paying for them to develop and manufacture parts of their "car" with 2 billion in stock. If Nikola goes under... GM hasn't lost anything. They can take all the work they did and just use it for their EVs.
    • jdhn 6y ago
      It's more of a reputation hit than anything. If this turns out to be as bad as these short sellers are saying, then anybody who really associated with Nikola is going to look really bad in the eyes of consumers.
      • fakedang 6y ago
        I don't think the top level honchos at GM are smart enough to have thought even this far through as you have.
• m1117 6y ago
  So theranos!
• deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
• Whut 6y ago
  I really look forward to reading the book about the inevitable meltdown.
• aurizon 6y ago
  Now GM has the unenviable task of picking up this turd by the clean end.....
  • stu2b50 6y ago
    Why? Their deal involves 2 billion in equity from Nikola for non-cash manufacturing work and development from GM.
    • aurizon 6y ago
      GM was snookered. I doubt that Nikola has IP worth that much work
      • stu2b50 6y ago
        Not really. From a financial pov GM wins hard no matter what happens. Nikola somehow becomes a real company: GM gets 2 billion in stock + 700 million in cash reimbursements and a strategic partnership. Nikola implodes, then GM still gets whatever of the 700M they could file and all the work they did is directly useful and necessary for their own EV projects. They're basically getting paid to do their own R&D The hit is to their reputation. Nikola basically paid GM to "partner" with them in a lopsided deal so they could have more credibility.
        • aurizon 6y ago
          Yes, I can see that is a valid POV, Nicola does indeed need validation like this.
• yalogin 6y ago
  One look at their site tells you it’s a fraud. They have nothing. Simply riding on the current fad.
• galkk 6y ago
  Holy shit. I'd be staging my fake death already.
• patentatt 6y ago
  Am I the only one who reads these stories of high level fraud (this one and Theranos) and think: “why not me?” I’d like to say I have higher ethical standards, but these conmen have cashed out a loooot of money doing this, and I think my ethics would also get flexible as dollar amounts get into the 8 or 9-figures. But then I realize, this type of a person has been doing this their whole life. This guy bilked his partner out of $50k in selling a $300k business. I just wouldn’t think it’s worth the hassle to lie through my teeth to everyone around me for $50k. That’s the difference between us and them, I guess, it’s the small-time fraud you have to slog through to make it to the big-leagues of scams.
  • hinkley 6y ago
    I think one place where Abrahamic religions steered us wrong ethically is a philosophy that being a good person is a lot of work and being an evil person is easy. When I look around, it seems more the case that being a better person or a worse person both take a lot of work. "Chaotic neutral" is probably cake by comparison. If you want to be a billionaire you have to practice, practice practice taking more than your share, and some days that'll count for a percentage of your goal. Or put more simply, it's not about the $50k, it's about the muscle memory.
  • tom-_- 6y ago
    There are many would be con artists that have not gone further than counting cards at the local tribal casino. I would argue these men are equally unethical but success at this scale requires persistence, hard work and talent. In this case, the talent is lying convincingly.
  • defterGoose 6y ago
    There's a reason why sociopaths are over-represented at the highest levels of business. It's a culture that self-selects for these traits.
  • marvin 6y ago
    You'll risk jail. And never having an honest job again. And having to hang out with the sort of people who enjoy the company of con artists. And lying through your teeth all day. And actively spending your creative energies making the world worse. And deliberately stealing money from people who might have used it for something useful. And gaining the lifetime hatred of these people. Who will want to punish you personally, financially or even commit acts of violence against you. If you've really thought through it and still figure it's a good idea, I'd honestly like to stay as far away from you as possible. Because I'm pretty sure that would represent a judgement that's at best very unsound, and in the more likely case indicates a personality that's dangerous to their surroundings.
• dzonga 6y ago
  would a black dude been able to pull of a straight eye | face fraud like this ?
  • coolspot 6y ago
    Are you saying that some races are less honest than other? Also direct answer to your question: https://money.cnn.com/2012/04/12/markets/ponzi-scheme/index.htm https://money.cnn.com/2012/04/12/markets/ponzi-scheme/index.... https://restofworld.org/2020/how-a-forbes-cover-star-stole-millions/ https://restofworld.org/2020/how-a-forbes-cover-star-stole-m... https://www.timeslive.co.za/news/south-africa/2020-09-07-for-the-love-of-fraud-now-us-is-also-to-indict-conman-pastor-jali/ https://www.timeslive.co.za/news/south-africa/2020-09-07-for...
• solarengineer 6y ago
  What of this article at cnet, where they show a working truck used by Budweiser in 2019? https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/budweiser-beer-nikola-hydrogen-electric-semi-truck/ https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/budweiser-beer-nikola-hyd...
• dba7dba 6y ago
  I know Hyundai Motor started shipping production model of fuel-cell truck in July 2020. They are planning to ship 1,600 hydrogen-powered Xcient trucks to customers by 2025. https://www.autoblog.com/2020/07/08/hyundai-xcient-fuel-cell-semi-truck-hydrogen-electric-europe/ https://www.autoblog.com/2020/07/08/hyundai-xcient-fuel-cell... And then I ran into this article. https://www.autoblog.com/2020/08/13/nikola-hyundai-hydrogen-partnership/ https://www.autoblog.com/2020/08/13/nikola-hyundai-hydrogen-... Trevor Milton, founder of Nikola Corp, said he would like to cooperate with Hyundai. He said he had twice made proposals to Hyundai that were rejected.
• hinkley 6y ago
  I searched my heart for sympathy, and all I found was this bucket of crocodile tears. Someone sold GM on a fraudulent electric vehicle future? Let's ask some former EV1 owners how that feels.
• simonebrunozzi 6y ago
  > Trevor has appointed his brother, Travis, as “Director of Hydrogen Production/Infrastructure” to oversee this critical part of the business. Travis’s prior experience looks to have largely consisted of pouring concrete driveways and doing subcontractor work on home renovations in Hawaii. This might be one of the best parts.
• WheelsAtLarge 6y ago
  Nikola seems to be little more than an idea but this report won't sink their ship. The reality is that the world is looking for the replacement for our carbon based energy system. Even if he just comes close to making a dent he and the people around him will be well rewarded. Everything starts with a dream, he seems to be a bit farther along than that. I won't invest but the car companies should at least help him make his dream come true. It will benefit all of us.
• new_realist 6y ago
  Tesla is 17 years old; Nikola is far less advanced. Elon Musk fanboys are jealous that Trevor Milton is doing it better, faster.
• m1117 6y ago
  This thread went to the second page of hacker news in 4 hours, while the amount of upvotes beats anything on the front page. Looks like throttling.
• zaroth 6y ago
  I think it’s a bit funny how some discussion in this thread has veered into denigrating Musk — who is at times one of the ten richest people in the entire world, and who ships products that millions of people have bought or aspire to purchasing, and who is predominately responsible for ushering in this entire era of the electronic car. Don’t forget that “Hindenburg Research” (seriously?!) stands to make many tens or hundreds of millions of dollars based on whether they can convince a significant number of shareholders that what they are claiming is true. And also that if they are successful in doing so that it also becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. I have no reason to believe or disbelieve any claims being made in TFA, so the only thing I can say for sure is that that this “report” is in no way altruistic. One of the very precarious notions around short selling is the financial incentive it provides to ruinously slander a company, and the very meager legal protections a company has against defamatory claims that short sellers make — in the name of “analysis” — against a company that they stand to make a fortune from if it fails. Without knowing anything one way or another about Nikola, the only thing I can say for certain is that if Nikola misstates a material fact to investors they can go to jail, whereas if “Hindenburg” gets their facts entirely wrong they face no repercussions. They have no duty to the shareholders of Nikola stock, and the legal peril of being even willfully wrong in their analysis is minuscule compared to what Nikola officers could face from the SEC. That’s just the grain of salt I would carefully consider before reading anything that Hindenburg puts out.
  • dcow 6y ago
    Are you long on Nikola? The group releasing the report stands to lose their position if their claims are false or even if the market ignores them. I’d argue it’s a lot harder to convince a bunch of people with long positions making the market that they pumped the wrong company than it is for the makers to ignore the ruse long enough to diversify the inevitable failure and pass it into your retirement fund. You don't just short companies for fun with no ramifications. I think you’re painting an exaggerated picture of the nature of taking down a company. You only attempt to do so if you are extremely sure of your convictions and have overwhelming evidence to support your case. You make enemies and you risk losing your connection to other market makers. I came across Nikola last month and didn’t need a report like this to smell something fishy. But this one is especially damning. I see no reason to not believe the evidence in the report.
• ahupp 6y ago
  > Initial Disclosure: After extensive research, we have taken a short position in shares of Nikola Corp. This is a great example of why shorts are socially valuable. Without that incentive who would go to the trouble of doing all this research to uncover (possible) fraud? This topic that comes up a lot on Money Stuff, where its easier for private companies to hide misbehavior because you can only short the public ones.
  • santoshalper 6y ago
    Short sellers, especially public ones, have a critical role in our equity markets. They remind me of defense attorneys. It's a sometimes thankless job and nobody likes you for being too good at it, but it is absolutely vital to keep the system healthy. Kudos to these guys for doing the fucking work.
    • phist_mcgee 6y ago
      I liked the bit where someone rented a car out in the middle of the desert and rolled it down a low grade hill for several miles to prove the truck demo was unpowered.
• leesec 6y ago
  Bigger shocker here. I hope Rivian doesn't follow the same path, but I can't seem to find any real videos of their truck doing what they've been saying it's capable of either.
  • evo_9 6y ago
    Hmm... didn't take all that much effort: https://electrek.co/2020/06/25/rivian-r1t-electric-pickup-stress-tested-desert-video/ https://electrek.co/2020/06/25/rivian-r1t-electric-pickup-st...
    • leesec 6y ago
      Where in that video does the truck go from 0-60 in 3 seconds, travel 400+ miles on a charge, charge in a reasonable time frame, etc...? This is a marketing video. For all we know that truck could have an engine. I'm talking about a real actual video of the truck doing what it's been proclaimed to do. It's been a few years, it shouldn't be so hard to have a single video of a truck getting close to these targets.
• throwawaysea 6y ago
  For those who have read “Bad Blood”, which details the fraud and unethical practices behind Theranos, this deeply comprehensive account of Nikola feels like deja Vu. I wonder if the same power dynamics are in play here as well, making the truth hard to recover from those close to it while an incompetent news industry continues primarily writing positive headlines that enable the fraud.