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Apple Reports Declining Profits and Slowing Growth Again
- h1d 7y agoApple can only stay afloat by exchanging people's faith into money by raising product prices when they have stopped innovating.
- immichaelwang 7y agoApple needs new sources of revenue. Anything marginal like cheaper iphone models won't cut it. I like the recent wave of acquisitions. Smart cars? Smart homes? Iterations of Apple Watch - deeper connection to the body itself? What's next for them?
- izzydata 7y agoDoes there have to be something else? What are the implications of a company growing forever? In 500 years are there going to be only 3 companies because they acquired everything and nothing else makes products?
- mr_crankypants 7y agoIt seems that the endgame we're unwittingly asking for is WALL-E.
- whatshisface 7y agoThe hitch in that plan is that only one company can have their P/E ratio justified by being Buy-n-Large 100 years from now.
- mr_crankypants 7y agoI suspect that that fact and our beliefs around it are being reflected in market prices, albeit with some heavy discounting for the uncertainty inherent in there still being so many companies out there. So many people's first instinct to respond by buying more shares of that company, thereby driving its price and market cap higher. That's a reaction that implies that we think that the general trend is toward Buy-n-Large. If we expected regression to the mean to be the driving phenomenon, then we'd be more likely to respond by selling. (Disclaimer: I'm not suggesting that's actually how things work, just that a lot of us behave as if we think that's how it works, or should work.)
- esmi 7y agoI don’t think there has to be something else. They had $2.18 per share in profit this quarter. Presumably some of that could be used to up the dividend if they really wanted.
- irrational 7y agoMaybe they can get some ideas from this short: https://youtu.be/VYxo-uymPUY https://youtu.be/VYxo-uymPUY
- bsaul 7y agoI think most people will take this video as a joke, but most people underestimate the long-term dangers of a lot of good intentions.
- threeseed 7y agoServices, AR Glasses and the Apple Car. Apple Arcade looks surprisingly interesting given they will support PS4/XBox controllers and the trend moves towards streaming gaming. AppleTV+ will do well if they can intelligently bundle it with Apple Music and you never know could have a breakout hit. AR Glasses and the Apple Car are clearly being worked on given acquisitions but both are many years out.
- rimliu 7y agoWho needs AR glasses? I don't doubt some geeks want them, and they can be useful for some jobs, otherwise Google already has shown how it will go.
- threeseed 7y agoPeople were equally dismissive of MP3 players, tablets and smart watches. Apple proved them all wrong and will likely do so again with the glasses. You just need the right killer applications and great design.
- r00fus 7y agoWhen Ahrendts was first hired, everyone thought Apple would go into tech jewelry/fashion. While Apple Watch "edition" was a bust, the concept of designer straps and iPhone accessories is still strong. Apple is like the IKEA of tech + fashion.
- stanislavb 7y agoThey should fix their keyboards and things might start working again.
- liberte82 7y agoApple has been stagnant since Steve Jobs died. His momentum keeps the company moving forward, but they haven't had a fresh idea since he passed.
- sxcurry 7y agoExcept for AirPods, Apple Watch, .....
- liberte82 7y agoBoth of which have had so-so reception. Certainly nothing like Jobs' industry-disruptive innovations.
- romanovcode 7y agoiPods are huge success
- rat9988 7y agoHow many times did steve jobs disrupt the industry?
- liberte82 7y agoiPod iPhone no disk drive UNIX-based OS goes mainstream first mainstream OS with a GUI iMac - making PC's 'friendly' iTunes - made it cool to pay for music again To name a few.
- justicezyx 7y agoAnything except first two is not that impressive... And iPhone is built on top of years of speculation and foundational change in material and wireless infrastructure. But the point is that apple now no longer needs to grow like jobs era. And for all good will, I see no chance for jobs to pull out new things equally big as iPhone anyway. But some can believe that regardless.
- dionian 7y agoyes, definitely sell your stock, I want to get more at a good price
- stevewodil 7y agoStock is up 4% after hours on the earnings beat.
- MaysonL 7y agoAnd the stock increased over 4% in after-hours trading, as increases in non-iPhone hardware sales and services overcame the decrease in iPhone sales. Earnings per share slightly beat the consensus forecast. An interesting quote from Cook in the press release: "The balance of calendar 2019 will be an exciting period, with major launches on all of our platforms, new services and several new products"
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- rootusrootus 7y agoYet another lesson that stock pricing is about predicting the future, not reacting to quarterly reports.
- mruts 7y agoOf course, but also quarterly reports help you predict the future.
- dumg 7y agoI can argue that in the last 10 years, the stock price for non-payers of dividends is no longer a function of KPIs. Take for example Pinterest. It was offloaded to the stock market when KPIs have been dropping for a very long time [1]. The company is likely doomed. Yet the stock is above the IPO [2]. 1. https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=all&geo=US&q=pinterest https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=all&geo=US&q=p... 2. https://robinhood.com/stocks/PINS https://robinhood.com/stocks/PINS [1Y]
- RhodesianHunter 7y agoWhat makes you say that Pinterest is doomed? In my anecdotal experience it seems like every suburban mom curates several boards near-obsessively.
- gonational 7y agoIf one of these major launches is a MacBook Pro with the same (or better) specs (esp video graphics) as their latest MacBook Pro, but without a TouchBar, they will get at least $2,500 from me. If one of these major launches is an iPhone X-like phone with a thumbprint reader (home button or otherwise), they will get at least another $1,000 from me.
- meerita 7y agoNew iPhone should be announced on September. Let's see what's going on.
- exabrial 7y agoMultiple factors I can think of, I'm sure there's more * Competing brands with better hardware quality (Pixel's camera vs iPhone) * Competing brands with less opinionated design choices (headphone jacks, expandable storage, et all) * Highly specialized supply chains prevent flexibility in part choices/manufacturers (ex: designing custom screws for iMac chassis, rather than using off-the-shelf parts) * Unnecessary complexity in designs (The HDMI/lightning adapter is actually a computer that essentially runs a program in RAM) * Trade wars cooling relationships with everything from shippers * Walled garden of iMessage preventing soft user migration
- antidaily 7y agoOr... none of those things. LMAO.
- jandrewrogers 7y agoThat iPhones were less than half their revenue, while still growing overall revenue, is a positive sign. Apple has done a good job of diversifying their revenue base over the last few years. It will be interesting to see how large wearables and services can become as revenue sources, I suspect they are still quite early in their growth.
- omarhaneef 7y agoAnd because the services have much higher margin, the earnings story is even better. Products are 42.4 - 29.5 = 13 ish Services are 11.5 - 4.1 = 7ish If the iphone has the same margins as the other products, and about half the product sales are iphones, the services are producing more earnings than the iphone! (To be clear: the services are delivered through the iphone, so its not like the iphone is not a key part of the services.) Source https://www.apple.com/newsroom/pdfs/Q3%20FY19%20Consolidated%20Financial%20Statements.pdf https://www.apple.com/newsroom/pdfs/Q3%20FY19%20Consolidated...
- vannevar 7y agoStill, the company hasn't released an innovative hardware product since 2008. That's a long time for them. If Apple can't innovate anymore, regardless of whether they have continued financial success, are they still really Apple?
- zepto 7y agoIgnoring the Apple Watch, which dominates the category and is a clear success.
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- vannevar 7y agoFair, but the Apple Watch has largely been an iPhone accessory rather than a standalone product. You could also point to AirPods. They sold a lot of them because a lot of people had iPhones. But neither is anything like the iPhone or the Mac in terms of defining a product category. Eventually, the Apple Watch is just going to be an iPhone on your wrist. More of a derivative, like the iPad.
- peaktechisnow 7y agoWhy would you link the NYTimes for a business article? They don't have a clue. These results are excellent (particularly wearables growth) and they guided Q3 revenues well ABOVE Sell side estimates. China decline rate improved dramatically to only -4% Y/Y.
- mffnbs 7y agoI thought this headline sounded overly pessimistic when seeing it after actually reading the report...
- samfisher83 7y agoThis is how it did compared to expectations EPS: $2.18 vs. $2.10 estimated by Refinitiv consensus estimates. Revenue: $53.8 billion vs. $53.39B estimated by Refinitiv consensus estimates. Q4 Revenue guidance: $61 billion to $64 billion versus $60.98 billion estimate by Refinitiv consensus estimates. iPhone revenue: $25.99 billion vs. $26.31 billion estimated by FactSet. Services revenue: $11.46 billion vs. $11.61 billion estimated by FactSet. https://www.cnbc.com/2019/07/30/apple-earnings-q3-2019.html https://www.cnbc.com/2019/07/30/apple-earnings-q3-2019.html
- terminalhealth 7y agoThese estimates are amazingly accurate or is my amazement inappropriate?
- ttul 7y agoPublic company estimates are usually this good.
- awinder 7y agoThe number of human man hours invested into that guidance number is vast. As accurate as that number is (and for what it is), people are going to make and lose a lot of money even still. Basically I’m saying — check your amazement because it’s amazement all the way down.
- kennysmoothx 7y ago"check your amazement because it’s amazement all the way down" I like that sentence a lot.
- georgeecollins 7y agoThis is a very big company with products that have a well understood track record. You could probably be pretty accurate if you just expected it to be the same as this quarter last year.
- rbavocadotree 7y ago
- jes5199 7y agothere’s something wrong with Apple lately. They ship hardware that’s worse than what they had five years ago, and their software has more and more embarrassing bugs. Seems like management problems.
- skrowl 7y agoiPhone sales continues to decline (down another 13% vs this quarter last year), but services are making up for it
- rubicon33 7y agoAnd they will continue to decline as long as a $200 Android phone can do literally ~95% of what a $1400 iPhone can do. Seriously, there's just no good reason for a general consumer to purchase an iPhone today. Build quality on the Android devices even in the $200 realm are damn near what the iPhone offers. For the record: I've used iPhones since 2010. I've never had an Android until this year. It came time to upgrade, and I did my research. Simply put, there's nothing on the flagship iPhone that most vastly cheaper Android phones can do. I'm not a fanboy, I vote with my dollar.
- criddell 7y agoApple still has a better product for people concerned about privacy and security. Not perfect, but better. They also have retail stores all over the place where you can get help when you need it. Again, the experience might not be great, but at least you have that option. In the Android world, I don't think I would recommend anything but a Pixel device just because they get all the security updates and get them faster than Samsung and all the rest. For the record, my phone is a Pixel 2. The bigger differentiator though is the app stores. If there's an iOS app or Android app that you need, then the decision is made for you.
- stock_toaster 7y ago> there's just no good reason for a general consumer to purchase an iPhone today * iOS (I prefer it over android) * customers already tied into the apple ecosystem * more of a focus on privacy (admittedly, this one is probably debatable)
- toper-centage 7y agoSo it's a mix of Stockholm syndrome and lazyness to change and tweak the system a bit in a more privacy friendly way.
- novaRom 7y agoI just visited a local shop where I tested different smartphones including iPhones. Lots of similarly looking models, most with Android. Most are below 300 Euro. An average buyer cannot probably see big difference between phones priced at 1000 and 200 Euro.
- S_A_P 7y agoI have thought long and hard about upgrading my iPhone 8 to one of the new X models, but I don't like the lack of a home button. I guess I am officially old now, but I dont want to look at my phone to unlock it. I like that I can reach in my pocket, and unlock it with my thumb as I retrieve it. It may be user error, but I see several co-workers have to really train the phone on their face to unlock with Face ID. That would drive me nuts. the swipe up gesture just seems annoying, and on my iPhone 8 is unreliable to bring up the control panel. they need to do what they did before and copy the other vendors that put the fingerprint reader on the back of the phone so that the nice bezel free design can be implemented.
- Areading314 7y agoIt's fine. At least on the new Galaxy phones, the haptic feedback works almost like its a real button (and I'm assuming it's similar on the iphone).
- earenndil 7y agoIphones 7 and 8 already have a 'virtual' home button using haptic feedback--I assume this is what you mean. X-factor iphones use a gesture-based system instead of any kind of button.
- j2bax 7y agoI was skeptical as well coming from my iPhone 6+ to the Xs... but it turns out that it just works and works fine. I wasn't missing my home button after about a day or two. Switching between iPad and iPhone is slightly awkward now, as I am sometimes waiting for my iPad to unlock on facial recognition and it never happens.
- filoleg 7y agoWhile I cannot comment on the rest, Face ID has proven to work surprisingly well for me, beating even the wildest expectations. The unlock time seems to be less than half a second, so as I look at the phone, it is already unlocked. And the detection is really good too. After I shaved my long beard and went fully clean-faced, FaceID had zero issues unlocking the phone with zero hiccups for me.
- 40acres 7y agoI believe that Apple’s next big thing will come in the form of AR consumer hardware and a detached Watch. Recent expansions of their chip design org and acquisition of Intel’s modem business reinforce my confidence in their execution, iPhones are still big business and services are rising. There is little reason to doubt that Apple has more than enough resources to take it through until the next breakthrough.
- reilly3000 7y agoI'm bullish on AAPL because of their planned services. Anything they roll out has a gigantic audience and will have immediate revenue impact. They have a tremendous bully-pulpit inside their users devices, incomparable email lists, and a habit of making TV commercials people like to watch. The fact that they are adding 4 lines of business (banking, ad-free gaming, news, and streaming) is going to sustain double-digit, high-margin growth for the foreseeable future. If I had money play with I would buy after this earnings report dropped; but it looks like the stock price isn't getting beat up.
- ilikehurdles 7y agoApple beat out EPS and Revenue estimates and the stock is trading up in after-hours. This is a headline for the cap-wearing anti-Tech Company crowd, as has been typical of the New York Times over the last year or two.
- uwuhn 7y agoI would pay lots of money for an Apple Bluetooth Mechanical keyboard. Like $300+ easily if it's good.
- mrpigeonpants 7y agoI'd expect Porsche to put out a minivan first.
- mixmastamyk 7y agoThey put out a SUV, and all the laughing didn't stop it or purchases.
- mrpigeonpants 7y agoThats a great point. There's a precedent of them heading in that direction. Although with Apple, they're trying to make keyboards that can be activated by a light sneeze or slightly higher than usual barometric pressure.
- woodgrainz 7y agoRevenue was up 1% YoY.
- igravious 7y agoApple: Revenue Growth 1% (quarterly) Huawei: Revenue Growth 23.2% (half-yearly) Apple: Revenue ~$258 billion Huawei: Revenue ~$105 billion Apple: R&D $14 billion[0] Huawei: R&D $15 billion[1] Apple: Employee Count ~132,000 Huawei: Employee Count ~188,000† --- I'm going to take an unusual step here. Please, please don't downvote this post for pointing this out! I'm just highlighting for contrast, not for criticism. Trying to start a conversation. --- [0] https://www.nasdaq.com/article/apple-aapl-earnings-after-the-bell-tuesday-can-the-iphones-slump-be-reversed-cm1185985 https://www.nasdaq.com/article/apple-aapl-earnings-after-the... [1] http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/a/201904/09/WS5cac0859a3104842260b5265.html http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/a/201904/09/WS5cac0859a31048422... † “Huawei had over 188,000 employees as of September 2018, around 76,000 of them engaged in Research & Development (R&D)” (I presume Apple has tens of thousands employed in r&d, anybody any idea roughly how many?) edit: sigh
- neonate 7y agohttp://archive.is/El570 http://archive.is/El570
- ceezuns 7y agoI don't understand why these articles think that people will just keep buying, like in the past decade the lifespan of devices has become bigger and bigger. I'm typing this post on a 2013 Macbook and I'm sure a lot of other users are using older laptops than that, that run perfectly fine. Like does the media just expect people to be buying new stuff again and again? I don't know if I'm just missing the point or something...
- noitsnot 7y ago2012 Macbook Pro here. Works like I just bought it. 5G is apparently the reason next year for your phone upgrade. I'm not sure how anyone will notice the difference, not to mention plans being throttled to death to begin with.
- pas 7y agoNot everywhere. Just the US seems to be stuck in throttle limbo. And already Apple has a very large userbase outside of the US.
- augustk 7y agoSooner or later you will have to buy a new device due to planned obsolescence, i.e. when (security) updates are no longer released. But then you can of course install a free operating system instead.
- scarface74 7y agoIn the case of iOS devices, Apple just released a series of patches for devices back to the iPhone 4s that was introduced in 2011.
- megaremote 7y agoAnd they only just stopped supporting 2009 imacs.
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- nabla9 7y agoAt these valuations Apple makes sense only when seen as an alternative to other investments. S&P 500 as a whole has P/S ratio that indicates lower return of investment for the next decade. At least Apple will be able to make profits.
- seldonnn 7y agoEvery investment is an alternative to another investment...
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- NicoJuicy 7y agoServices are making up for it, but they are losing a vast amount of their base customers. 13% drop in sales won't make their services popular. They should have launched 5 years ago, they had way more advantage then. They do still have a big consumer base, but 13% is a lot and it doesn't seem to go upwards.
- SlyShy 7y agoSeems unwarranted to assume they are actively losing customers. I haven't bought an iPhone in years because I still use a SE, and I still use my 2015 MBP. They haven't lost me in any real sense just because I haven't contributed to a sale _recently_.
- NicoJuicy 7y agoI'm not the only one that thinks so, but the Apple fans are still here ( only -1 downvotes after 17 hours though, considerably less than in the past) https://www.cnbc.com/2019/07/31/wall-street-analysts-worry-about-apples-iphone.html https://www.cnbc.com/2019/07/31/wall-street-analysts-worry-a...
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- paul7986 7y ago2019 is another year I’m stuck with my iPhone 8 from 2017. I use to upgrade every year then some genius at Apple thought bigger phones are the only way to go from here on out. Maybe that person no longer works there? Also Touch ID over Face ID or offer both or I’m not interested along with millions of others!
- dntrkv 7y agoThe iPhone XS is basically the same size as an iPhone 8 with a screen that is 1" larger.
- paul7986 7y agoI can not hold my previously owned XS in one hand and text one person then go back to text another without moving the phone’s position in my hand. Thus I took it back ..bad UX that makes me exert effort my iPhone 8 doesn’t. Also no Touch ID..pick phone up without looking at it and boom phone is open. Face ID forces user to do more work..swipe up and look. Two more steps I didn’t have to do previously. Those to me as a UX professional who strives to make things easiest as possible equals bad UX. Forcing the user to exert more effort they didn’t have to before. Apple has always been about ease of use..yet the person in charge of UX (Johnny Ive) thought making things an inch harder would be no big deal, yet look at the amount of phones they aren’t selling these days.
- hal-9-000 7y agoNot related to article but.. I have a change request for HN, put some kind of marker next to links which require payment/signingIn/signingUp or whatever the fk stops you from consuming content right away.
- hcnews 7y agoDoesn't Google pay Apple ~10 billion$ for TAC nowadays? I am hoping someone with time will lookup the increase in Google's spend and Apple's revenue.
- garysahota93 7y agoDo you think they would ever monetize iMessage? Imagine making iMessage cross platform, but only available to paying iCloud Subscribers. So I could pay $10 / month for upgraded iCloud storage and get iMessage on my Android phone. I'd pay for that.
- Marsymars 7y agoI'd love that. I have an Android phone and already pay for iCloud storage for Apple Photos even though using it with an Android Phone adds considerably friction to the process. I'll be getting rid of my Nest Camera in favour of one that supports HomeKit Secure Video next time my Nest Aware account comes up for renewal. An approach I'd like for iMessage is to make it free for anyone, but only functional if at least one member of a conversation has an iPhone or paid iCloud subscription.
- garysahota93 7y agoI like that approach! Very plausible and consistent with services like Cisco WebEx and such that require one "admin license" and as many guests as possible. I just recently switched from Android to iOS and there's a lot I miss about Android that will never come to iOS. I'd love to have that flexibility but cross-platform compatibility too.
- DLA 7y agoNY Times made a mess of this story and slanted it toward their agendas. Horrible reporting. Apple beat most estimates. Revenues grew. All time high revenue from services. Forward guidance was raised. https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2019/07/apple-reports-third-quarter-results/ https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2019/07/apple-reports-third-q...
- tryptophan 7y ago>slanted it toward their agendas. They do this a lot. It is (rightfully) pointed out any time a right leaning website story is posted, with the whole "Note this is from X publication, and they are right leaning, so take that into consideration" comment. For some reason NYT seems immune to this criticism though.
- lstamour 7y agoGenerally the New York Times fact-checks and corrects itself—but all newspapers spin stories for more clicks or interest. “Everything’s going okay at Apple” isn’t going to move advertisement dollars, the metric by which all news media ultimately value stories. Having worked at a newspaper or two myself, it’s inescapable. That said it’s also worth pointing out the New York Times has endorsed Republicans before... just not recently. I suppose it’s also worth noting the Republican Party wasn’t always this way, either. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_presidential_election_endorsements_made_by_The_New_York_Times https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_presidential_electio...
- ergothus 7y ago> For some reason NYT seems immune to this criticism though. Not from where I've been sitting: https://www.google.com/search?q=site%3Aycombinator.com+NYT+bias https://www.google.com/search?q=site%3Aycombinator.com+NYT+b... You could argue NYT took a while to get called out, but not that they aren't getting called out.
- nkozyra 7y agoLikely because there are publications that are SO slanted, agenda-based and poorly sourced it's more important to note.
- dwighttk 7y agoApple should just spin off everything but iPhone into a company that people who need quarterly growth can invest in.
- rhacker 7y agoThe iPhone costs too much now. People are realizing they can buy a OnePlus 6T or Samsung 9 for half the price. My wife has been fed up with our older Android phone and said - we're going back to the iphone. We looked up the prices for the latest, second latest, third latest iphone models and then she said - why don't we get another OnePlus.
- awareBrah 7y agoOf course slowing growth, they got rid of the headphone jack. What did they expect?
- IloveHN84 7y agoAnother justification to the more increased prices expected in newer Keynote
- darkteflon 7y ago“Is Apple still capable of innovation?” must be one of the most tedious and clapped out topics in all of tech. No one can even remotely agree on a definition of what constitutes “innovation” and yet people keep showing up to dash themselves against the rocks chasing their 5 minutes. If you’re sitting at home playing armchair quarterback with this stuff, all I can say is I hope you’re not responsible for managing any actual money.
- novaRom 7y ago'Apple experience' for me today is lag. Beginning from lagging volume bar on iPhone, going through iTunes, and up to UI. Everything feels slower than on a much cheaper Android phone with 3.5mm jack.
- VvR-Ox 7y agoClearly they shouldn't have stopped producing the iPhone SE or it's successor in the same shape. Also they messed up really hard when they introduced the new MBP keyboards which now all have to be replaced. The iPad started to be useful much too slow and in the meanwhile less and less people would even consider it when comparing with a surface. There is one more thing: The ecosystem seemed to be cool some day. Now it's nothing special anymore and it's not really magical how many things don't work together (because software, bugs, whatever...). I buy the nice devices as used parts because they had times when they produced some cool stuff that I still like to use. Maybe not with their OS but this will probably change when less money gives them more pressure to be innovative again.
- pedro1976 7y agoIts quite remarkable that some people value the fact that estiamtes have been beaten or not.
- susan_hall 7y agoWhat new product can they offer? What new ideas do they have? Is there any sign of the originality that was on display 10 years ago?
- klauslovgreen 7y agoI think the trouble is that the devices are getting too good and there is really only incremental improvement every year so the upgrade cycle is getting longer. I typically get the latest phone every year (but it starts to feel unnecessary) - iPad's and Mac's, however, last a lot longer (several years) for me these days. I wonder where the real innovation is going to come from? AI, AR?
- lunchables 7y agoAirpods and Apple Watch are both relatively new products in Apple-terms and have many years of incremental improvements ahead of them. If you are looking for something as big as the iPhone, I think you might be disappointed. But, it is a pretty poorly kept secret that they are working on self-driving cars and some kind of "TV". And Apple has been pretty clear about focusing on growth in services now that they have this massive base of deployed devices.
- 0898 7y ago"Slowing growth." Honestly.
- billabul 7y agoserious, I never understood why a company must steadily grow, isn't that in contrast to the limited economical resources we have globally?
- crispyporkbites 7y agoWe don’t have limited economical resources globally. Wealth creation is not zero sum, 100 years ago we had far less wealth than we had today and in 100 years we’ll have a lot more. Sure, an individual company can stop growing but everything must continue to grow in aggregate to push humanity forward.
- billabul 7y agoThank you for your answer but: if we need to back the economical resources with real assets, don't this translates to limited economical resources?
- martin1b 7y agoNo surprise. No innovation. All stopped around 2011. They've been coasting since then. Difference sizes of the same product. The watch was about as far as they've wandered out of their comfort zone.