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In a high-stress work environment, prioritize relationships

346 points by wqtz 1y ago

steele 1y ago
Now rank your direct reports and select half a million of salary worth from the bottom quartile to right-size your team by COB. Details to follow. sent from my iPhone
- ctkhn 1y ago
  Had this happen to me and a teammate after an onsite where we were explicitly told "our team is safe from layoffs"
M95D 1y ago
What if I'm an introvert and maintaining relationships cause more stress than the job?
itchyjunk 1y ago
Nah, realizing I don't have to constantly be thinking about relationship was what made things a lot less stressful for me. It's still stressful. But at least I get to mind my own business. Not saying everyone is like me. Maybe no one is. But it was better for me to mind my own business and internally say fork you to all the superficial relationships.
- hobs 1y ago
  You should prioritize your mental health, but what the article is saying is that you actually need to GET AWAY from that type of situation, and the most likely route is using a chain of other people's hands to pull you out of the situation. If you just want to hunker down and do your own thing you might survive, but the best thing to do is probably move on from such places (or work with your team when it gets bad to get out of it ya rite lol it goes on forever)
- ramesh31 1y ago
  This is fine, until it comes time for layoffs. Like it or not, software development is an intensly social enterprise. Of course there are lone geniuses out there doing their own thing, and if that's you great. But it isn't how enterprise teams work. Particularly as you reach L7, every single aspect of your job will become political in one way or another.
  - airstrike 1y ago
    This is true even outside of software development. Working at pretty much any company is an inherently social enterprise dictated by those same rules you correctly pointed out.
  - datadrivenangel 1y ago
    Except the layoffs come from someone's spreadsheet 3 levels up, so even if everyone likes you that may not be enough. It definitely helps, but not guaranteed.
    - corytheboyd 1y ago
      The point isn’t about saving yourself from the layoff, it’s about having a network to help you find a new job, because yeah, the layoffs are disconnected, heartless, and clumsy. If you’re always building at least a couple relationships, some of those people inevitably quit on their own, branch out, and after years of this, you end up with a decently sized network to help you out (and you can help them too when the time comes)
- darth_avocado 1y ago
  There is a difference between tolerating a few things here and there because it’s a high stress environment and being okay with psychopaths mistreating and abusing you with the excuse of “high stress environment”. You do not need to put up with the latter. Fork em and you do not need those relationships to find your next job. The article trivializes a high stress work environment by putting everyone at the same baseline of “everyone is good, it’s just that the situation sucks”. In reality a lot of people are not good and the workplace is only “high stress” because those people are part of the workplace.
  - nuancebydefault 1y ago
    Indeed, often the workplace is high stress because the direct manager is incompetent and passes down their stress instead of shielding you off and empowering you. Networking- wise not such an issue to say 'fork you' to such incompetent soul, though I always keep in mind everyone deserves some degree of respect.
- bravetraveler 1y ago
  You're not alone, though we are rare. I desperately want to go back to minding my own business. Except... everyone I work with now seems to believe I've either lied my way in or desperately need a friend. We're doing contracting without the upside/autonomy, let's not delude ourselves
- nuancebydefault 1y ago
  I would not know what is there, beyond relationships? Money does not buy happiness. Doing a good job and never getting credit for it... would make me feel miserable. Maybe I'm in such a lucky situation that I can say this, being able to put relationships above all else. Or maybe it is just my attachment grounded personality.
cj 1y ago
Similarly, once you’re looking for a new job, assuming you’re looking for roles with the same job title you had before, do everything you can to paint your previous job in a positive light even if it was miserable. If you don’t, interviewers are left wondering how to interpret your dissatisfaction at your previous job.
- hobs 1y ago
  Honestly, this is the most toxic thing about job interviews for me - "hey can we do the thing where you pretend you didn't have a string of shitty jobs for 5 years? because obviously you were at fault if they were shitty." Most jobs are pretty shitty, the idea that you need to demonstrate toxic positivity about how shitty it was is just so inauthentic.
  - cj 1y ago
    Another way to think about it, are you able to tolerate the less than perfect aspect of a job while still being pleasant to coworkers. A lot of people can’t, and a lot of companies try to avoid those people.
    - aleph_minus_one 1y ago
      > are you able to tolerate the less than perfect aspect of a job while still being pleasant to coworkers. I honestly tend to get much better along with cynic people (and find them much more pleasant). In other words: tastes differ.
    - lucianbr 1y ago
      So a lot of companies try to avoid a lot of people? How does that work out? In my experience most companies work with a wide distribution of people. This "we avoid hiring people who have defects" reads as disconnected from reality. Nobody is perfect, and most companies are average and have average people.
    - FitCodIa 1y ago
      This approach is simplistic. People can usually direct their anger and frustration, to some extent. Most of the time, there's little reason to be angry at a coworker. Even if they mess up, it's usually not a huge deal, it's relatively easy to mitigate or undo; if you need mediation, there's a manager "nearby" in the org chart to escalate to, and so on. In addition, you probably have some camaraderie from past projects and assignments etc, which provides a basis of resilience when they (or you) screw up. Staying relatively pleasant and positive is not a huge challenge. Conversely, when upper management fucks up, and refuses to take responsibility (for example: admit to making the wrong decision, or even reverse the decision), that's when cynicism runs rampant among the rank and file. And gee, what a surprise, VPs and CEOs try to avoid underlings that speak up about the screw-ups of the brass.
zhengyi13 1y ago
This reads in essence as a reminder to be empathetic. Thanks for that.
BartSpaans 1y ago
Relationships are always the most important thing in every line of work, and are often valued more than how good you are at your job. - Want a promotion? I hope your manager likes you - Need collaboration from colleagues? Better not be a dick to them - Want to look for new opportunities? Better have a network We are social beasts at the end of the day.
- bezier-curve 1y ago
  Unfortunately this also seems to pave the way for cronyism, and people climbing up the ladder without merit to back it up. What should be considered is a balance between soft and hard skills.
  - ctkhn 1y ago
    True, but this is already how most management works regardless. If you don't optimize for the existing system you probably won't get high enough to change it at all.
- dakiol 1y ago
  I guess it depends. I'm not really good at relationships, but I can be a very normal guy in almost every scenario. So, I'm not like asking my manager what did he do during the weekend (but if he talks about it, I listen and follow the discussion), nevertheless he's a professional and if I do my job the way they like it, I'll get a promotion (if I don't, then I need to switch to another company). Similarly, I'm not friend of my work colleagues, but I'm definitely not a dick. It's easy to not be a dick; it's not easy to be "friendly". I don't have a work network at all. The people I have worked with in the past are Linkedin connections now (I do have the phone number of a couple of people, though), but I have never relied on them to get a job (among other things, because they live in different cities, countries and continents). So, many of us are doing just good by being really really minimal social beasts. I think the key is to not being a dick, but that doesn't require being a social person in my experience.
  - nuancebydefault 1y ago
mclau157 1y ago
If a workplace is split into different functions, and your coworkers in your function are not great, it can be difficult or seem bothersome to try to bond with coworkers in a different function
- bityard 1y ago
  In companies with highly compartmentalized roles, too much work to do, and annoying co-workers, it's easy to say, "that's not my problem, go away." (With a bit more diplomacy, I'd hope.) I have always prioritized trying to be the stereotypical helpful person who might not know the answer to your question, but usually knows who to ask. The more your name comes up in the context of "who knows how X works?", the better your job security and future prospects through networking.
  - kccqzy 1y ago
    A lot of times that stereotypical helpful person is so helpful that junior people never learn to get rid of their dependence on that person. I know that because I've been that stereotypical helpful person. I realized something was amiss when a junior person who had been on the team for two years still came to me every other day to ask me questions. They spent minimal amount of effort thinking on their own, and then simply decided to ask me. And when I explained the solutions, they only remembered it for a short time and then one week later proceeded to ask me almost the same question again. I suppose this is the kind of proto-vibe-coder before the age of AI.
    - ctkhn 1y ago
      There is an amount of this that needs to happen when you onboard to a team, but as new hires become more aware of the stack and where things are documented it should happen only for genuinely complicated things and the occasional brain fart. I have a junior who frequently asks me where things live in the code when you could ctrl-f to find the answer and it's pretty annoying.
    - projectazorian 1y ago
      That's when you give feedback that they should spend, say, 30 mins trying to sort the problem out for themselves before asking for help. And that they should take notes or ask over Slack so they can refer back to the answer.
smallflykkoo 1y ago
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rendall 1y ago
Yes: do remember that your coworkers are enduring similar stresses as you. Yes: do not snap, blow your top, yell, throw temper tantrums, act like a child. However, no: in many places and industries, you do not have to rely on the good recommendation of your former boss or coworkers to get your next job. In fact, it may even be illegal for employers to disclose more than your dates of employment and job title. So, check the norms and laws in your region before staying in a toxic job, if you're there only hoping things will get better enough for a decent recommendation.
ArthurStacks 1y ago
[flagged]
w111 1y ago
Thanks a lot for posting this, I really needed it today. Sometimes it’s hard to see the forest for the trees.
MichaelRo 1y ago
Unfortunately, in 20+ years and some 7 jobs in the meantime, I never ever got a job by means of an inside recommendation nor was I able to get someone I recommended to be hired. And the reason is, I'm a lowly engineer and that's all. I have zero clout, HR and hiring managers couldn't give a shit of whom I recommend. So if you "prioritize relationships" with an ulterior purpose (get hired eventually by some "relation"), then make sure you relate to the right people :)
- lnsru 1y ago
  That’s exactly my experience. I got once a position from my network. It was a foot soldier’s position at classmate’s dad’s company. Decades later my network are same foot soldiers or leads of something like me. Nobody’s there, who could hire me immediately in the case of emergency.
- bravetraveler 1y ago
  +1, every time I've been asked "do you know anyone to hire" it's been anything but upfront. Just another way to see how desperate you are [through your network]... and by proxy, how hard to push.
- int_19h 1y ago
  It really depends on company culture. To give a personal counter-example, I'm an engineer. Based on my recommendation, my current employer hired a person who was fired (not laid off, but actually fired!) from my previous workplace. And my recommendation was itself based on a recommendation of my friend who is a former colleague at the aforementioned previous workplace, and whose opinion I trust and value highly. Of course the hiree still had to pass the interviews etc, and that isn't easy in and of itself; but my personal recommendation was what got their foot in the door.
alphazard 1y ago
In software, often the people are the source of stress. Building the software is easy to many in this industry, and the vast majority of the value produced came from someone who thought creating it was easy. Being surrounded by rock stars all doing something they find easy is sublime, and I encourage everyone to seek out those environments. They exist and are fleeting. The stress comes from people who are bad at what they do and are trying to make it someone else's problem. They don't have vision for how they will accomplish what is asked of them. In their imagination, there is not a clear set of steps that can be burned down over the coming days and weeks to arrive at something of value. In their minds it is all chaos and uncertainty and they are desperate for the assurance of someone who knows what's going on. The relationships that one develops with each category of person are fundamentally opposite. One is about enticing repeated interactions: You really get it, how do we work together in the future? And the other is about keeping a polite distance to prevent repeated interactions. How do I avoid meetings, projects, shared responsibilities, and future employment opportunities that involve this person?
- bubbleRefuge 1y ago
  a tech mentor once told me what makes a developer great is not how good or talented he is but how good he makes those around him be.
- PaulRobinson 1y ago
  Not all relationships are equal, so don't just prioritize relationships, but those that are valuable. You can't ignore people who bad at what they do and are trying to make it someone else's problem, but you can find allies who are good at what they do and want to take some pride and ownership in the same things you do. If someone doesn't have a vision for how they will accomplish what is asked of them, that's an opportunity for mentorship. They might not take it from you, but you can offer it. I actually think the really dangerous people are the ones you encourage people to seek out: those who think everything is easy. That to me is a sign of Dunning-Kruger. I'd rather sit down with somebody who says "I don't know yet how to solve this, but we'll work it out", than somebody who says "it's easy we don't need to think too hard about this" or "it's hard and so I won't even try". Also, meetings, shared responsibilities - they're part of getting stuff done as part of a team. Instead of trying to avoid them, try to improve them. Learn the people skills needed to help a person change their habits towards being the productive ally that adds to a team rather than takes away from it. It's not easy, it's hard, but you will figure it out. If I was working with you, I'd say "we", not "you" but alas...
eviks 1y ago
Stress is also what makes it hard to develop those relationships
taraindara 1y ago
Going through this now in my job. This was a great reminder that I’m not alone in all of this. It’s funny how easy it can be to feel like I’m the only one that’s struggling. And it’s true about the “fuck yous”. It instantly reminded me of an old coworker that was let go and was trying to joke about it, but the F U sticks aside from anything else he accomplished while there.
xrd 1y ago
How do you do this in a remote environment?
- wussboy 1y ago
  Keep your camera on. Say hello to everyone on your team every morning. Engage in idle chit-chat on Teams.
- beezlebroxxxxxx 1y ago
  The majority of work behavior and relationship advice can be summarized down to 3 points. 1. Be nice. 2. Don't be an asshole. 3. Don't be a push-over. (Arguably the hardest as many people read that as "be an asshole". It is not.) The same applies in remote environments.
_ink_ 1y ago
Yup, my relationship failed, because I was grinding in a startup (that also failed). It wasn't the only reason, but it had a big effect. Don't be like me.
Daisywh 1y ago
I relate to this a lot. A few years ago I was stuck in a toxic team. Every day felt like survival. I almost walked out one day after a heated meeting, but I stayed quiet, and a teammate quietly checked in with me later. That connection ended up helping me find a much better job a year later. The job felt disposable, but that small human moment stayed with me.
i_love_retros 1y ago
> think of the other person who is begging you and how it impacts them. Even though they are probably your manipulative narcissistic manager or coworker?
junikaefer 1y ago
Yeah, I completely agree about the article. I left shitty jobs always with a bang, but reference checks are not a thing (yet) where I live and they even don’t want to see work certificates.
zphds 1y ago
In a high-stress environment, try to sleep well and eat healthy. Sleep is important!
nottorp 1y ago
Why not "prioritize keeping your resume up to date and shiny" ?
LightBug1 1y ago
[flagged]
motohagiography 1y ago
funny how orgs reward people who hold grudges but not people who let them go or who just set normal adult boundaries. i'm 'that guy' prety much everywhere, and one reason is that I really just like what I do and am usually committed to the mission over the org. defying pournelle's iron law plays out predictably though. another reason is Pfeffer's triad, where power in any situation is a local weighting of Performance, Credentials, and Relationships. I trade on performance and cred, where my relationships are often polarized because of the imbalance being heavy in those other weightings. a friend once described it as the relative skills of an indoors cat vs. an outdoors cat, where an outdoors cat catches all the mice and keeps off some larger animals but will probably scratch the furniture and cause a stink once in a while, whereas an indoors cat keeps the house mostly mouse-free, uses a litter box, but doesn't survive long outside, and if you don't empty the litter box often enough you get toxoplasmosis gondii and become a zombie. managing indoors and outdoors cats together is an art.
DonHopkins 1y ago
[flagged]
dpe82 1y ago
This reminds me of a research study Google conducted on itself some years ago asking the question: “What makes a team effective at Google?”. They found the most important to be psychological safety. https://rework.withgoogle.com/en/guides/understanding-team-effectiveness https://rework.withgoogle.com/en/guides/understanding-team-e... https://archive.is/fFEgI https://archive.is/fFEgI
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
- otp209 1y ago
  > asking the question: “What makes a team effective at Google?” considering "effective at Google" == projects destined for the Graveyard, I feel like they could've been asking themselves better questions
tasuki 1y ago
Fuck that. I think I've been nice to my coworkers for over a decade. If I had felt the need to tell them "fuck you", I absolutely would have. Choose who you work with, and perhaps you won't have to say "fuck you".
neilv 1y ago
In the kind of "high-stress work environment" they're talking about (it's a dysfunctional, toxic kind), the only example they give for value of relationships is getting recommendations afterwards. Relationships can also help you mitigate the dysfunctional environment while you're there, with huge benefits to your health. (Don't underestimate when people say stress kills you: it's not a video game health meter that recovers quickly and fully at the end of of an encounter; that bad stress is damage from which you never fully recover.) But also be aware that supportive relationship oases in a dysfunctional environment can also slow leaving a place where you really-really should. Some people need to be told to be more loyal than they are, but some people need to be told when loyalty is killing us and not doing any good. (Seriously, your supportive colleagues are probably bittersweet glad to see you escape, and you leaving might even give attention/leverage of management to help fix org problems, or encourage colleagues to expedite their own escape.)
- BLKNSLVR 1y ago
  I left a place that I'd been for a long time that had slowly become toxic (to me at least), but it took me maybe a year longer than it should have for me to leave, and the after-effects of the stress stuck with me for at least 6 months, possibly up to a year. My wife basically pointed out that I was "different": less of what makes me me (I'm fundamentally happy and optimistic). Identify problems and act early, for the sake of your mental and eventually physical health.
jimkleiber 1y ago
I try to apply this advice to almost all relationships. It reminds me of the famous quote, "Be nice to everyone you meet because they are fighting a battle you know nothing about, and that I can say from experience." [0] I see life as emotional combat, that I'm always dealing with so many conflicting conflicts at the same time that I'm trying my best to manage everything and so is everyone else. It has been helping me SO much just to frame life this way. [0]: https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/williams-fighting-battle-quote/ https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/williams-fighting-battle-q...
- nuancebydefault 1y ago
  Could you elaborate what you get out of that quote? I consider myself reasonably kind to people in general, but if people treat me badly I tend to take it personal.
  - jimkleiber 1y ago
    It's less out of the quote and more from just the phrase "emotional combat." I as well take things personally, aka, I feel attacked and pull away, shrinking into my experience and actively not wanting to imagine what someone else is going through. When I focus on emotional combat, I can start to see how I'm not just experiencing this one specific conflict but am getting hit from multiple angles: financial, physical, social, familial, etc. And then it almost makes me see that the other person is going through this combat as well, whether I want to see it or not. So in short it can help me broaden my perspective on the conflicts I'm experiencing, which then can almost trick me into broadening it for the other person, and I can feel myself expand.
motbus3 1y ago
The source of stress is usually someone else's relationship
otp209 1y ago
I don't mix relationships with work. Being kind to people for the purposes of recommendations is not the same as a relationship. Relationships are a thing I support outside work. Inside work, I might build rapport and expand my professional network; that is NOT THE SAME as meeting people for the sake of pursuing relationships, and as much as possible one should be kept away from the other.
gdubs 1y ago
Many of you are more valuable than you realize and it pains me to read so many comments about how you need to frame things "just so" in an interview, or "be careful not to lose your patience ever". It's dehumanizing, and it undervalues your inherent worth and skill set. Obviously don't be a jerk. Beyond that you will really damage your mental well-being if you're constantly trying to put on a certain face or worry how things will "play" with recruiters. The best advice is to try to stay generally optimistic and collaborative, and to take pride in your craft and lead by example. But also not to discount the fact that you might in fact be more capable of following your passions and starting your own thing than you realize.
- spacemadness 1y ago
  That was really nice to read, thanks. There's a lot of black and white thinking out there that can really get one down sometimes if you're not careful.
mrichman 1y ago
I read the first sentence three times, and then realized the author just had atrocious grammar. I couldn't continue on.
tamaker 1y ago
bars
SamvitJ 1y ago
In a high-stress work environment (that you are not happy with), prioritize getting out.
Aziell 1y ago
This reminds me of my time in a high-pressure work environment. Every day felt like walking on a ticking time bomb, just waiting for something to explode. Over time, I realized that excessive stress and anxiety weren’t solving anything. In fact, they were making relationships with my colleagues tense. So, I started trying to slow down, giving myself and others some space, and holding onto those connections that I might need in the future. Because no matter how important work is, relationships will always be the most valuable asset.
debuggerson 1y ago
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Tistron 1y ago
"Powered by Bear ʕ•ᴥ•ʔ" -> "A privacy-first, no-nonsense, super-fast blogging platform No trackers, no javascript, no stylesheets. Just your words." Yet, about 30% of the source of TFA is a stylesheet. I guess they mean no external stylesheet?
rajnathani 1y ago
Social relationships are an underrated thing in general. Reading a HN comment many years ago about how scientifically the strongest correlation with happiness is the level of social relationships, really helped changed my perspective (along with observational studies on socializing/loneliness levels). Humans are inherently social beings (there's also a positive correlation of intelligence in animal species with the level of socializing (eg: birds, dolphins, dogs, etc.)). It's also good to see the term "Social Health" starting to being used these days. I reckon (tried on myself) that to be able to still prioritize one's personal and work growth, that one could remove self-indulgences like watching TV, browsing public reels (any social media outside of your family and friends), listening to music alone, etc. and instead spend some of that extra time with others. To an extent, these relationships help with personal and work growth as well, for example getting better at a sport or traveling and learning about other industries respectively.

346 points by wqtz 1y ago

Now rank your direct reports and select half a million of salary worth from the bottom quartile to right-size your team by COB. Details to follow. sent from my iPhone

ctkhn 1y ago
Had this happen to me and a teammate after an onsite where we were explicitly told "our team is safe from layoffs"

M95D 1y ago

What if I'm an introvert and maintaining relationships cause more stress than the job?

itchyjunk 1y ago

Nah, realizing I don't have to constantly be thinking about relationship was what made things a lot less stressful for me. It's still stressful. But at least I get to mind my own business. Not saying everyone is like me. Maybe no one is. But it was better for me to mind my own business and internally say fork you to all the superficial relationships.

hobs 1y ago
You should prioritize your mental health, but what the article is saying is that you actually need to GET AWAY from that type of situation, and the most likely route is using a chain of other people's hands to pull you out of the situation. If you just want to hunker down and do your own thing you might survive, but the best thing to do is probably move on from such places (or work with your team when it gets bad to get out of it ya rite lol it goes on forever)
ramesh31 1y ago
This is fine, until it comes time for layoffs. Like it or not, software development is an intensly social enterprise. Of course there are lone geniuses out there doing their own thing, and if that's you great. But it isn't how enterprise teams work. Particularly as you reach L7, every single aspect of your job will become political in one way or another.
- airstrike 1y ago
  This is true even outside of software development. Working at pretty much any company is an inherently social enterprise dictated by those same rules you correctly pointed out.
- datadrivenangel 1y ago
  Except the layoffs come from someone's spreadsheet 3 levels up, so even if everyone likes you that may not be enough. It definitely helps, but not guaranteed.
  - corytheboyd 1y ago
    The point isn’t about saving yourself from the layoff, it’s about having a network to help you find a new job, because yeah, the layoffs are disconnected, heartless, and clumsy. If you’re always building at least a couple relationships, some of those people inevitably quit on their own, branch out, and after years of this, you end up with a decently sized network to help you out (and you can help them too when the time comes)
darth_avocado 1y ago
There is a difference between tolerating a few things here and there because it’s a high stress environment and being okay with psychopaths mistreating and abusing you with the excuse of “high stress environment”. You do not need to put up with the latter. Fork em and you do not need those relationships to find your next job. The article trivializes a high stress work environment by putting everyone at the same baseline of “everyone is good, it’s just that the situation sucks”. In reality a lot of people are not good and the workplace is only “high stress” because those people are part of the workplace.
- nuancebydefault 1y ago
  Indeed, often the workplace is high stress because the direct manager is incompetent and passes down their stress instead of shielding you off and empowering you. Networking- wise not such an issue to say 'fork you' to such incompetent soul, though I always keep in mind everyone deserves some degree of respect.
bravetraveler 1y ago
You're not alone, though we are rare. I desperately want to go back to minding my own business. Except... everyone I work with now seems to believe I've either lied my way in or desperately need a friend. We're doing contracting without the upside/autonomy, let's not delude ourselves
nuancebydefault 1y ago
I would not know what is there, beyond relationships? Money does not buy happiness. Doing a good job and never getting credit for it... would make me feel miserable. Maybe I'm in such a lucky situation that I can say this, being able to put relationships above all else. Or maybe it is just my attachment grounded personality.

cj 1y ago

Similarly, once you’re looking for a new job, assuming you’re looking for roles with the same job title you had before, do everything you can to paint your previous job in a positive light even if it was miserable. If you don’t, interviewers are left wondering how to interpret your dissatisfaction at your previous job.

hobs 1y ago
Honestly, this is the most toxic thing about job interviews for me - "hey can we do the thing where you pretend you didn't have a string of shitty jobs for 5 years? because obviously you were at fault if they were shitty." Most jobs are pretty shitty, the idea that you need to demonstrate toxic positivity about how shitty it was is just so inauthentic.
- cj 1y ago
  Another way to think about it, are you able to tolerate the less than perfect aspect of a job while still being pleasant to coworkers. A lot of people can’t, and a lot of companies try to avoid those people.
  - aleph_minus_one 1y ago
    > are you able to tolerate the less than perfect aspect of a job while still being pleasant to coworkers. I honestly tend to get much better along with cynic people (and find them much more pleasant). In other words: tastes differ.
  - lucianbr 1y ago
    So a lot of companies try to avoid a lot of people? How does that work out? In my experience most companies work with a wide distribution of people. This "we avoid hiring people who have defects" reads as disconnected from reality. Nobody is perfect, and most companies are average and have average people.
  - FitCodIa 1y ago
    This approach is simplistic. People can usually direct their anger and frustration, to some extent. Most of the time, there's little reason to be angry at a coworker. Even if they mess up, it's usually not a huge deal, it's relatively easy to mitigate or undo; if you need mediation, there's a manager "nearby" in the org chart to escalate to, and so on. In addition, you probably have some camaraderie from past projects and assignments etc, which provides a basis of resilience when they (or you) screw up. Staying relatively pleasant and positive is not a huge challenge. Conversely, when upper management fucks up, and refuses to take responsibility (for example: admit to making the wrong decision, or even reverse the decision), that's when cynicism runs rampant among the rank and file. And gee, what a surprise, VPs and CEOs try to avoid underlings that speak up about the screw-ups of the brass.

zhengyi13 1y ago

This reads in essence as a reminder to be empathetic. Thanks for that.

BartSpaans 1y ago

Relationships are always the most important thing in every line of work, and are often valued more than how good you are at your job. - Want a promotion? I hope your manager likes you - Need collaboration from colleagues? Better not be a dick to them - Want to look for new opportunities? Better have a network We are social beasts at the end of the day.

bezier-curve 1y ago
Unfortunately this also seems to pave the way for cronyism, and people climbing up the ladder without merit to back it up. What should be considered is a balance between soft and hard skills.
- ctkhn 1y ago
  True, but this is already how most management works regardless. If you don't optimize for the existing system you probably won't get high enough to change it at all.
dakiol 1y ago
I guess it depends. I'm not really good at relationships, but I can be a very normal guy in almost every scenario. So, I'm not like asking my manager what did he do during the weekend (but if he talks about it, I listen and follow the discussion), nevertheless he's a professional and if I do my job the way they like it, I'll get a promotion (if I don't, then I need to switch to another company). Similarly, I'm not friend of my work colleagues, but I'm definitely not a dick. It's easy to not be a dick; it's not easy to be "friendly". I don't have a work network at all. The people I have worked with in the past are Linkedin connections now (I do have the phone number of a couple of people, though), but I have never relied on them to get a job (among other things, because they live in different cities, countries and continents). So, many of us are doing just good by being really really minimal social beasts. I think the key is to not being a dick, but that doesn't require being a social person in my experience.
- nuancebydefault 1y ago

mclau157 1y ago

If a workplace is split into different functions, and your coworkers in your function are not great, it can be difficult or seem bothersome to try to bond with coworkers in a different function

bityard 1y ago
In companies with highly compartmentalized roles, too much work to do, and annoying co-workers, it's easy to say, "that's not my problem, go away." (With a bit more diplomacy, I'd hope.) I have always prioritized trying to be the stereotypical helpful person who might not know the answer to your question, but usually knows who to ask. The more your name comes up in the context of "who knows how X works?", the better your job security and future prospects through networking.
- kccqzy 1y ago
  A lot of times that stereotypical helpful person is so helpful that junior people never learn to get rid of their dependence on that person. I know that because I've been that stereotypical helpful person. I realized something was amiss when a junior person who had been on the team for two years still came to me every other day to ask me questions. They spent minimal amount of effort thinking on their own, and then simply decided to ask me. And when I explained the solutions, they only remembered it for a short time and then one week later proceeded to ask me almost the same question again. I suppose this is the kind of proto-vibe-coder before the age of AI.
  - ctkhn 1y ago
    There is an amount of this that needs to happen when you onboard to a team, but as new hires become more aware of the stack and where things are documented it should happen only for genuinely complicated things and the occasional brain fart. I have a junior who frequently asks me where things live in the code when you could ctrl-f to find the answer and it's pretty annoying.
  - projectazorian 1y ago
    That's when you give feedback that they should spend, say, 30 mins trying to sort the problem out for themselves before asking for help. And that they should take notes or ask over Slack so they can refer back to the answer.

smallflykkoo 1y ago

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rendall 1y ago

Yes: do remember that your coworkers are enduring similar stresses as you. Yes: do not snap, blow your top, yell, throw temper tantrums, act like a child. However, no: in many places and industries, you do not have to rely on the good recommendation of your former boss or coworkers to get your next job. In fact, it may even be illegal for employers to disclose more than your dates of employment and job title. So, check the norms and laws in your region before staying in a toxic job, if you're there only hoping things will get better enough for a decent recommendation.

ArthurStacks 1y ago

[flagged]

w111 1y ago

Thanks a lot for posting this, I really needed it today. Sometimes it’s hard to see the forest for the trees.

MichaelRo 1y ago

Unfortunately, in 20+ years and some 7 jobs in the meantime, I never ever got a job by means of an inside recommendation nor was I able to get someone I recommended to be hired. And the reason is, I'm a lowly engineer and that's all. I have zero clout, HR and hiring managers couldn't give a shit of whom I recommend. So if you "prioritize relationships" with an ulterior purpose (get hired eventually by some "relation"), then make sure you relate to the right people :)

lnsru 1y ago
That’s exactly my experience. I got once a position from my network. It was a foot soldier’s position at classmate’s dad’s company. Decades later my network are same foot soldiers or leads of something like me. Nobody’s there, who could hire me immediately in the case of emergency.
bravetraveler 1y ago
+1, every time I've been asked "do you know anyone to hire" it's been anything but upfront. Just another way to see how desperate you are [through your network]... and by proxy, how hard to push.
int_19h 1y ago
It really depends on company culture. To give a personal counter-example, I'm an engineer. Based on my recommendation, my current employer hired a person who was fired (not laid off, but actually fired!) from my previous workplace. And my recommendation was itself based on a recommendation of my friend who is a former colleague at the aforementioned previous workplace, and whose opinion I trust and value highly. Of course the hiree still had to pass the interviews etc, and that isn't easy in and of itself; but my personal recommendation was what got their foot in the door.

alphazard 1y ago

In software, often the people are the source of stress. Building the software is easy to many in this industry, and the vast majority of the value produced came from someone who thought creating it was easy. Being surrounded by rock stars all doing something they find easy is sublime, and I encourage everyone to seek out those environments. They exist and are fleeting. The stress comes from people who are bad at what they do and are trying to make it someone else's problem. They don't have vision for how they will accomplish what is asked of them. In their imagination, there is not a clear set of steps that can be burned down over the coming days and weeks to arrive at something of value. In their minds it is all chaos and uncertainty and they are desperate for the assurance of someone who knows what's going on. The relationships that one develops with each category of person are fundamentally opposite. One is about enticing repeated interactions: You really get it, how do we work together in the future? And the other is about keeping a polite distance to prevent repeated interactions. How do I avoid meetings, projects, shared responsibilities, and future employment opportunities that involve this person?

bubbleRefuge 1y ago
a tech mentor once told me what makes a developer great is not how good or talented he is but how good he makes those around him be.
PaulRobinson 1y ago
Not all relationships are equal, so don't just prioritize relationships, but those that are valuable. You can't ignore people who bad at what they do and are trying to make it someone else's problem, but you can find allies who are good at what they do and want to take some pride and ownership in the same things you do. If someone doesn't have a vision for how they will accomplish what is asked of them, that's an opportunity for mentorship. They might not take it from you, but you can offer it. I actually think the really dangerous people are the ones you encourage people to seek out: those who think everything is easy. That to me is a sign of Dunning-Kruger. I'd rather sit down with somebody who says "I don't know yet how to solve this, but we'll work it out", than somebody who says "it's easy we don't need to think too hard about this" or "it's hard and so I won't even try". Also, meetings, shared responsibilities - they're part of getting stuff done as part of a team. Instead of trying to avoid them, try to improve them. Learn the people skills needed to help a person change their habits towards being the productive ally that adds to a team rather than takes away from it. It's not easy, it's hard, but you will figure it out. If I was working with you, I'd say "we", not "you" but alas...

eviks 1y ago

Stress is also what makes it hard to develop those relationships

taraindara 1y ago

Going through this now in my job. This was a great reminder that I’m not alone in all of this. It’s funny how easy it can be to feel like I’m the only one that’s struggling. And it’s true about the “fuck yous”. It instantly reminded me of an old coworker that was let go and was trying to joke about it, but the F U sticks aside from anything else he accomplished while there.

xrd 1y ago

How do you do this in a remote environment?

wussboy 1y ago
Keep your camera on. Say hello to everyone on your team every morning. Engage in idle chit-chat on Teams.
beezlebroxxxxxx 1y ago
The majority of work behavior and relationship advice can be summarized down to 3 points. 1. Be nice. 2. Don't be an asshole. 3. Don't be a push-over. (Arguably the hardest as many people read that as "be an asshole". It is not.) The same applies in remote environments.

_ink_ 1y ago

Yup, my relationship failed, because I was grinding in a startup (that also failed). It wasn't the only reason, but it had a big effect. Don't be like me.

Daisywh 1y ago

I relate to this a lot. A few years ago I was stuck in a toxic team. Every day felt like survival. I almost walked out one day after a heated meeting, but I stayed quiet, and a teammate quietly checked in with me later. That connection ended up helping me find a much better job a year later. The job felt disposable, but that small human moment stayed with me.

i_love_retros 1y ago

> think of the other person who is begging you and how it impacts them. Even though they are probably your manipulative narcissistic manager or coworker?

junikaefer 1y ago

Yeah, I completely agree about the article. I left shitty jobs always with a bang, but reference checks are not a thing (yet) where I live and they even don’t want to see work certificates.

zphds 1y ago

In a high-stress environment, try to sleep well and eat healthy. Sleep is important!

nottorp 1y ago

Why not "prioritize keeping your resume up to date and shiny" ?

LightBug1 1y ago

[flagged]

motohagiography 1y ago

funny how orgs reward people who hold grudges but not people who let them go or who just set normal adult boundaries. i'm 'that guy' prety much everywhere, and one reason is that I really just like what I do and am usually committed to the mission over the org. defying pournelle's iron law plays out predictably though. another reason is Pfeffer's triad, where power in any situation is a local weighting of Performance, Credentials, and Relationships. I trade on performance and cred, where my relationships are often polarized because of the imbalance being heavy in those other weightings. a friend once described it as the relative skills of an indoors cat vs. an outdoors cat, where an outdoors cat catches all the mice and keeps off some larger animals but will probably scratch the furniture and cause a stink once in a while, whereas an indoors cat keeps the house mostly mouse-free, uses a litter box, but doesn't survive long outside, and if you don't empty the litter box often enough you get toxoplasmosis gondii and become a zombie. managing indoors and outdoors cats together is an art.

DonHopkins 1y ago

[flagged]

dpe82 1y ago

This reminds me of a research study Google conducted on itself some years ago asking the question: “What makes a team effective at Google?”. They found the most important to be psychological safety. https://rework.withgoogle.com/en/guides/understanding-team-effectiveness https://rework.withgoogle.com/en/guides/understanding-team-e... https://archive.is/fFEgI https://archive.is/fFEgI

deleted 1y ago
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otp209 1y ago
> asking the question: “What makes a team effective at Google?” considering "effective at Google" == projects destined for the Graveyard, I feel like they could've been asking themselves better questions

tasuki 1y ago

Fuck that. I think I've been nice to my coworkers for over a decade. If I had felt the need to tell them "fuck you", I absolutely would have. Choose who you work with, and perhaps you won't have to say "fuck you".

neilv 1y ago

In the kind of "high-stress work environment" they're talking about (it's a dysfunctional, toxic kind), the only example they give for value of relationships is getting recommendations afterwards. Relationships can also help you mitigate the dysfunctional environment while you're there, with huge benefits to your health. (Don't underestimate when people say stress kills you: it's not a video game health meter that recovers quickly and fully at the end of of an encounter; that bad stress is damage from which you never fully recover.) But also be aware that supportive relationship oases in a dysfunctional environment can also slow leaving a place where you really-really should. Some people need to be told to be more loyal than they are, but some people need to be told when loyalty is killing us and not doing any good. (Seriously, your supportive colleagues are probably bittersweet glad to see you escape, and you leaving might even give attention/leverage of management to help fix org problems, or encourage colleagues to expedite their own escape.)

BLKNSLVR 1y ago
I left a place that I'd been for a long time that had slowly become toxic (to me at least), but it took me maybe a year longer than it should have for me to leave, and the after-effects of the stress stuck with me for at least 6 months, possibly up to a year. My wife basically pointed out that I was "different": less of what makes me me (I'm fundamentally happy and optimistic). Identify problems and act early, for the sake of your mental and eventually physical health.

jimkleiber 1y ago

I try to apply this advice to almost all relationships. It reminds me of the famous quote, "Be nice to everyone you meet because they are fighting a battle you know nothing about, and that I can say from experience." [0] I see life as emotional combat, that I'm always dealing with so many conflicting conflicts at the same time that I'm trying my best to manage everything and so is everyone else. It has been helping me SO much just to frame life this way. [0]: https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/williams-fighting-battle-quote/ https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/williams-fighting-battle-q...

nuancebydefault 1y ago
Could you elaborate what you get out of that quote? I consider myself reasonably kind to people in general, but if people treat me badly I tend to take it personal.
- jimkleiber 1y ago
  It's less out of the quote and more from just the phrase "emotional combat." I as well take things personally, aka, I feel attacked and pull away, shrinking into my experience and actively not wanting to imagine what someone else is going through. When I focus on emotional combat, I can start to see how I'm not just experiencing this one specific conflict but am getting hit from multiple angles: financial, physical, social, familial, etc. And then it almost makes me see that the other person is going through this combat as well, whether I want to see it or not. So in short it can help me broaden my perspective on the conflicts I'm experiencing, which then can almost trick me into broadening it for the other person, and I can feel myself expand.

motbus3 1y ago

The source of stress is usually someone else's relationship

otp209 1y ago

I don't mix relationships with work. Being kind to people for the purposes of recommendations is not the same as a relationship. Relationships are a thing I support outside work. Inside work, I might build rapport and expand my professional network; that is NOT THE SAME as meeting people for the sake of pursuing relationships, and as much as possible one should be kept away from the other.

gdubs 1y ago

Many of you are more valuable than you realize and it pains me to read so many comments about how you need to frame things "just so" in an interview, or "be careful not to lose your patience ever". It's dehumanizing, and it undervalues your inherent worth and skill set. Obviously don't be a jerk. Beyond that you will really damage your mental well-being if you're constantly trying to put on a certain face or worry how things will "play" with recruiters. The best advice is to try to stay generally optimistic and collaborative, and to take pride in your craft and lead by example. But also not to discount the fact that you might in fact be more capable of following your passions and starting your own thing than you realize.

spacemadness 1y ago
That was really nice to read, thanks. There's a lot of black and white thinking out there that can really get one down sometimes if you're not careful.

mrichman 1y ago

I read the first sentence three times, and then realized the author just had atrocious grammar. I couldn't continue on.

tamaker 1y ago

bars

SamvitJ 1y ago

In a high-stress work environment (that you are not happy with), prioritize getting out.

Aziell 1y ago

This reminds me of my time in a high-pressure work environment. Every day felt like walking on a ticking time bomb, just waiting for something to explode. Over time, I realized that excessive stress and anxiety weren’t solving anything. In fact, they were making relationships with my colleagues tense. So, I started trying to slow down, giving myself and others some space, and holding onto those connections that I might need in the future. Because no matter how important work is, relationships will always be the most valuable asset.

debuggerson 1y ago

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Tistron 1y ago

"Powered by Bear ʕ•ᴥ•ʔ" -> "A privacy-first, no-nonsense, super-fast blogging platform No trackers, no javascript, no stylesheets. Just your words." Yet, about 30% of the source of TFA is a stylesheet. I guess they mean no external stylesheet?

rajnathani 1y ago

Social relationships are an underrated thing in general. Reading a HN comment many years ago about how scientifically the strongest correlation with happiness is the level of social relationships, really helped changed my perspective (along with observational studies on socializing/loneliness levels). Humans are inherently social beings (there's also a positive correlation of intelligence in animal species with the level of socializing (eg: birds, dolphins, dogs, etc.)). It's also good to see the term "Social Health" starting to being used these days. I reckon (tried on myself) that to be able to still prioritize one's personal and work growth, that one could remove self-indulgences like watching TV, browsing public reels (any social media outside of your family and friends), listening to music alone, etc. and instead spend some of that extra time with others. To an extent, these relationships help with personal and work growth as well, for example getting better at a sport or traveling and learning about other industries respectively.