12 ms·

My Canadian parents are in their 80's so naturally a lot of their friends of the same age are dying. And two of them have been via MAID. In one case, which was

My Canadian parents are in their 80's so naturally a lot of their friends of the same age are dying. And two of them have been via MAID. In one case, which was surprising to me, a man who had survived cancer - he was not terminal but certainly wasn't getting any better - elected to die via MAID after his wife died. She passed, he called his doctor and less than a week later he was also dead. He got a chance to visit his family, apparently drive around his hobby farm one more time and then that was it. He didn't want to deal with being alone and seriously ill. Another friend was in renal and congestive heart failure and possibly could have lived longer but they were driving 100km daily to get to the nearest dialysis clinic and again, this person was definitely dying. So made and appointment and decided to go sooner rather than suffer along for an indeterminate amount of time. It's quite surprising to me, but these people are in their mid to late 80's and of sound mind and know what they want.

darth_avocado 2y ago
I wouldn’t call someone dealing with cancer and the loss of his wife sound of mind within one week of the loss.
- drjasonharrison 2y ago
  Details left out of the anecdote may have included a natural death after a long period of illness. Or it may have been a sudden death.
- guyzero 2y ago
  He had apparently expressed his intention before she passed. I do not know all the details and this is second hand, but he apparently had a plan.
  - darth_avocado 2y ago
    I would’ve expected at least a waiting period longer than a week after a traumatic event. Of course I don’t know all the circumstances around it.
    - fellowniusmonk 2y ago
      A lot of equations and generally good advice for the younger set changes when you're in you 80s. I think unless you've had a pretty unstable life or have real serious mental illness you know yourself pretty damn well by that point.
    - caseyohara 2y ago
      Who decides on the duration of the waiting period? Why can’t people be in charge of their own lives? Especially people in their 80s, they have earned the right to agency. It reminds me of OB/GYN providers that deny childless women sterilization procedures – even when they are in their 30s – ostensibly on the risk that the woman might change their mind about having children. Some people know things for certain and there is a 0% chance they are going to change their mind. Yes, irreversible decisions warrant deep consideration. But denying a full grown adult control over their life decisions is cruel and unduly authoritarian.
      - aaplok 2y ago
        The thing is, someone has to. If you walk in very drunk asking to be euthanised, one would hope that they would have to wait until you are no longer drunk to confirm you really want to be euthanised. Then, who decides on the waiting period? Likewise if a traumatic event clouds your judgement (as some events can do), it's not unreasonable to make you wait until your judgement is sound. Then someone has to decide on the waiting period. Potentially this can be studied statistically. Just collect data regularly after an event (such as binge drinking event) to evaluate how quickly people's judgement stabilises. That way we may find that the death of a spouse doesn't cloud the judgement, in which case the waiting period is 0.
        Boogie_Man 2y ago
        Convincing your drunk friend to go to the suicide clinic and kill himself is the absolute pinnacle of "thing that's the most hilarious thing in the world while you're smashed but is absolutely horrifying the second you wake up the next morning". Anecdotally, I've heard that there's a strong link between heavy boozing and suicide, especially via firearm. One wonders if it's determined people needing courage, or drunk people becoming determined.
  - rightbyte 2y ago
    [flagged]
    - guyzero 2y ago
      I believe they had a funeral together. That was part of the reason for the short waiting time.
      - rightbyte 2y ago
        Ok it just feels so sad in some way.
    - dang 2y ago
      Please don't add snark into a topic like this. It demeans the discussion, and we're all worse for that. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
      - rightbyte 2y ago
        Ye sorry didn't mean to come out as snarky. There is this old man that get to watch a color movie before being put to death in the movie. I didn't mean the escavator scene in some sort of meme reference. More like some slippery slope argument.
- jstummbillig 2y ago
  I think in a case like this, it’s simple to introspect, hard to empathize with the person that matters, and easy confuse the two.
- Jimmc414 2y ago
  Agreed, but requiring one's psychology be stabilized before they can die of despair seems to miss the point
  - Spivak 2y ago
    This happens with transgender individuals looking to start hrt stuck in a basically the same catch-22. It's an uphill legal battle to get people to understand that laws saying you have to get the patient's depression, anxiety, and suicidal ideation completely under control before they're allowed to start hrt when that's the source of those problems is untenable. Because while there are reasonable and empathetic folks there's faction who is pushing these laws as a means of soft-outlawing the treatment all together. Ahh local politics, truly nothing else like it.
RandomThoughts3 2y ago
To be honest, my grand parents both died in their nineties and their last two years were really sad. It was not so much the physical decline but the mental one. At the end, while technically alive, so little of who they were as persons remained, they might as well have been dead. I fully understand someone in their 80s knowing the end is near choosing to leave on their own term.
- karencarits 2y ago
  I appreciate you sharing your perspective. I wondered, when you described feeling "really sad" and the sense that people "might as well have been dead," I'm wondering if you're speaking about your own emotional response or trying to convey how the individuals themselves felt about their situation? Edited to sound less harsh
  - RandomThoughts3 2y ago
    Well, they experienced extended physical suffering and having the mental acuity of a toddler. Feel free to try to convince me that not being able to recognise your own kids and the person you have been married with for seventy years while gradually fully losing your hearing and sight and not being able to leave a bed is somehow a worthy experience. I personally question if you can even talk of experiencing anything because that would imply there is something left which can meaningfully process experiences. And that’s the part which came after the initial decline when they were just insanely mean to their loved ones all the time. You do sound harsh by the way.
    - karencarits 2y ago
      Thank you for clarifying! I've edited my comment to - hopefully - sound less confrontational
    - stavros 2y ago
      My grandfather had Alzheimer's, and for years he lived a stressful life. He constantly kept wondering why he's not in his home (he was), as well as some random paranoia, like that I was a thief that had come to steal from him, or that he was elected mayor against his will, etc. It wasn't great for him.
nashashmi 2y ago
This! People feel like they cannot live alone or they cannot want that someone else be caused hardship (time or money) because of their difficulty. I feel like I will get downvoted to oblivion just because people vehemently disagree, but THIS CANNOT be the meaning and choice behind death. It is simply immature, arrogant, and selfish. But more plainly, it is suicidal / self-relentment.
- mjevans 2y ago
  My sample size as an adult is still small, but I've seen this in pets and I've seen this in humans. The downward slope quickens faster than any would like once it starts. The body or the mind slips away, leaving someone either trapped in a shell that doesn't work, or momentary fragments of the person who was among a sea of futile vapid existence. Our medical technology is not there and shows little sign of being close to resolving either issue. Rather than slowly wasting away I too would rather have the option to twist to the side off the cliff rather than the long slow painful stair tumble down the hill.
  - nashashmi 2y ago
    You might be narrowing the definition of life to mean "body and mind fully active; useful spirited existence; painless existence". But ask the senile when they are no longer senile, or the once-despressed, or the ones who live in pain (sickle-cell anemic?) if death is better.
- Freak_NL 2y ago
  Who are you to judge whether someone who has lived for over seven decades should go on living or not? If they feel their life is done, have nothing left to live for, and fear degenerating into a husk of their former selves (dementia) stuck inside a broken brain for as long as their body holds out, than why should they hang on? It's arrogant and selfish to force people to live on for as long as doctors can keep their body alive. No euthanasia just means more messy suicides.
  - nashashmi 2y ago
pj_mukh 2y ago
My dad (age 75) got diagnosed with ALS and within a month of the diagnosis opted for MAID. He had only just lost control of one leg, but he knew what was coming. As much as we begged him for more time, he didn't want any of it. Till his dying breath he kept repeating how thankful he was that he lived in a country that didn't force him to live on when he didn't want to. He was a clear Track 1 case, and I realize Track 2 cases are more complicated, but just wanted to add my story as reporting on MAID spins out of control in our culture war milieu.
- guyzero 2y ago
  I'm sorry for your loss.
- fellowniusmonk 2y ago
  Yeah man, it does suck. I do wish I'd had more time with both my parents, they both died really early in their 50s, I don't think you can ever have "enough" time. I wish my mother had been given the option in her early 50s, the number of people punished by authoritarian governments that deny self determinism and force people to be put through experiences literally worse than torture is mind boggling, I cannot fathom it. I don't think anyone who has seen it even a single time can honestly make slippery slope arguments, I have to assume it's ignorance and that these people are simply "actually" nerds doing recreational theory crafting. I assume it's the same headspace as flat earthers, it doesn't effect me so why should I care about aligning my thoughts with the real world, let me invent theoretical overlords and victims and argue about this new synthetic world that exists in my imagination. I just can't be uncharitable enough to believe a person who has seen it first hand, that a person would embrace such unfettered cruelty as to deny a person living in constant hell a drop of water. That being said... fuck, back in 2000 I did meet a bunch of people that denied hiv existed and said even if it did it was a punishment on gay people and it would be better if it wasn't cured so they would be scared and "behave" (yes, I personally met these people, the non-existence was rare but the "shouldn't develop treatment" was not a minority view in the city I lived in at the time.) After my mother died, for a while I volunteered with "No one dies alone.", I doubt a single person who has done so for any length of time is going to argue "slippery slope".
Salgat 2y ago
I know it's morbid to discuss but the relief of financial burden on society is also significant. Not only do they die with dignity, but they are giving back to society.
- saulpw 2y ago
  Not to society, but to their loved ones. Whether their children via inheritance or their spouse they didn't bankrupt.
- tacticalturtle 2y ago
  This is not a good argument for MAID, and I think there are countless dystopian sci-fi stories that exhibit this reasoning that I’d like to avoid (The Giver, Logan’s Run, Soylent Green, etc) If we start looking at people who use MAID as selfless because they are “giving back to society”, and relieving the “financial burden”, what does that make people who choose to stick around? Are they selfish? No one should be pressured or guilted into choosing an option like MAID - people are more than just balances on a spreadsheet.
  - Salgat 2y ago
    To clarify, it's not an argument being made, it's an appreciation for the full extent of what they are doing.
- supportengineer 2y ago
  Agree 100%. I am hoping to use the MAID option on myself one day. Cancer runs in the family. Of course I hope to get to at least 80 or so. There is definitely such a thing as a "good death" and a "bad death" having seen both close-up in family members. Knowing my $ is going to my children instead of some scammy health insurance providers will give me the final smile on my face, and my last thought will be "I WON"
- proactivesvcs 2y ago
  They've already given to society, probably for most of their lives. It is now their turn to have some small amount returned.
giarc 2y ago
In your first example, I suspect there was probably other things present you weren't made aware of. Currently the requirements in Canada include (only copy those relevant to your example). -have a serious and incurable illness, disease or disability (excluding a mental illness until March 17, 2027) -be in an advanced state of irreversible decline in capability -have enduring and intolerable physical or psychological suffering that cannot be alleviated under conditions the person considers acceptable https://www.justice.gc.ca/eng/cj-jp/ad-am/bk-di.html#s1 https://www.justice.gc.ca/eng/cj-jp/ad-am/bk-di.html#s1
- nprateem 2y ago
  It sounds like the last one is the get out of jail free card.
  - cperciva 2y ago
    The "alleviated under conditions the person considers acceptable" clause is very broad, but doctors have to first agree that the person is suffering intolerably, so it's not entirely a blanket clause.
  - dghlsakjg 2y ago
    That isn’t the full list, and all of the criteria must be met, not just one of them.
- guyzero 2y ago
  Yes, I know very little other than that he was a cancer "survivor" - he wasn't about to die of cancer imminently but I think he had some sort of long-term ongoing health issues. But he was apparently well enough to drive a car!
wpietri 2y ago
Yeah, I get that. Once you've accepted death is inevitable, you start to think carefully about what kind of death you want. My parents both died of glioblastomas, a particularly aggressive form of brain cancer. As the surgeon explained after the biopsy, "This is what you will die from." 3 months from diagnosis to death for my mom, a year and change for my dad. Seeing that process up close made very clear to me what I wanted for myself. All of this was reinforced for me by the experience of Brittany Maynard: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brittany_Maynard https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brittany_Maynard She was diagnosed with a glioblastoma and was given 6 months to live. She moved from California to Oregon so she could die in a controlled and humane manner. She wrote about that here: https://www.cnn.com/2014/10/07/opinion/maynard-assisted-suicide-cancer-dignity/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2014/10/07/opinion/maynard-assisted-suic... I get the thought of medically-assisted suicide wigs some people out, and we have to be careful to make sure the urge isn't just a temporary distortion of mood and thought. But having seen it up close, I am very much not interested in spending months dying slowly and dragging my family through hell just to make sure random people not involved don't have to think about hard things or deal with their feelings about death.
- geysersam 2y ago
  That must have been tough. May I ask what made them ill? The odds that they both got the same relatively rare disease by chance seems slim
  - wpietri 2y ago
    Yeah, they were actually both left temporal lobe glioblastomas. Every time that comes up with a doctor they get a funny look and ask where they lived, obviously suspecting some environmental cause. The short answer is people almost never know the cause of a glioblastoma. My parents only lived in the same place for like 6 years, and they moved around a fair bit. Nobody else in my family had one so far, so the next likely data points are me and my brother. Not a lot you can do anyhow, so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Yeul 2y ago
[flagged]
- gambiting 2y ago
  Well that entire dogma is giving us monsters like Mother Theresa who thought that by letting people in her care suffer she made it more likely they will make it to heaven - and well, the Catholic Church has agreed with that interpretation and made her a Saint. This was touched upon in a game called Indika released this year......there's a story there how a guy ended the suffering of his young child who was in constant pain, and was told by a priest during confession time "well you see by killing your son you condemned your soul to eternity in hell, but your child is now definitely in heaven, so actually you did a good thing by sacrificing yourself!". And so the guy went and killed the rest of his family, having come to a logical conclusion that he can't get any more condemned to hell than he already is, but if he guarantees that his entire family goes into heaven then surely that's an absolutely amazing thing to do. I don't know if this was based on a true story or not, but the logic totally applies.
  - adamiscool8 2y ago
    The alternative dogma of egocentric hedonism creates at least as many monsters.
    - contravariant 2y ago
      I'm doubtful. Way more people are willing to hurt others if they think it's for the greater good compared to people willing to hurt others just for personal gain.
    - gambiting 2y ago
      Why is the alternative dogma egocentric hedonism? To me, the alternative to what she was doing is "dogma" of caring for another human. If they need help, if they cry out in pain, help them - not collect imaginary points of sending them to heaven. Not sure where egocentric hedonism plays into this.
nicoburns 2y ago
It's not at all surprising to me! I fully expect to want to euthanise myself once I'm done with life (and I'm going to be pretty upset if it's not an option for me when it gets to that point). People tell me I'll change my mind (perhaps similarly to how people treat people who say they don't want kids). But I doubt I will. I've seen lot's of older people (and people who's lives are not good) still want this when it comes to the time when it applies. The only reason it's not more commonplace is social stigma (and legal obstacles) against it.
- tokioyoyo 2y ago
  I live in the neighbourhood in Canada with a lot of elder people. I mentioned in one of my previous comments as well, and MAiD is probably one of the best things that happened in our country in the past decade. I have distant relatives who took the MAiD way out (one because of the age, the other one terminal illness). It's not very uncommon to hear once every quarter in the coffee shop in my neighbourhood people chatting about this program. Older people are generally happy having a way out, rather than suffering and bringing pain to their close ones. Both of my parents (in their 70s) mentioned how they want to go out the same way once they're incapable of living and start suffering. I feel the same about it as well. I understand there are very small amount of cases where people shouldn't be able to take this way out, but it's a net good. I really hate how global media is trying to turn it into a big conversation and "slippery slope", because if anyone who has seen their loved one suffer... they would never want this program to end.
  - neom 2y ago
    These HN comments are both uplifting and wild to me at the same time. I live downtown Toronto, work on Bay St and all I hear is how insane we are allowing all these people to kill themselves with MAID, even on the occasions I log onto twitter, if Canadian stuff comes up I always see some "omg the Canadians are crazy all killing themselves" - I always thought MAID was great but had started to wonder if I'm wrong headed about that.
    - tokioyoyo 2y ago
rahimnathwani 2y ago
I can understand this intellectually/rationally, but I can't imagine actually making such a decision.
- polski-g 2y ago
  Imagine being in pain, all day, every day. Can you imagine such a decision now?
  - rahimnathwani 2y ago
    Without access to painkillers, sure, yes.
    - Philadelphia 2y ago
      Painkillers don’t work for many types of pain
      - BeefWellington 2y ago
        And they often come with a host of awful side effects and/or are addictive in nature, and often requiring a slowly increasing dose to be effective.
- gosub100 2y ago
  I could see making the decision and then chickening out as soon as it was time to get to business.
  - rahimnathwani 2y ago
    Me too.
heroprotagonist 2y ago
My great-grandfather stuck around for a year or two with various eldery-issues after his wife died. Then he had to hang himself, because there was no legal or easy way to humanely end his own life. Apparently he did it wrong, but died anyway. Just more slowly and more painfully, without any support.
mattmaroon 2y ago
I’ve never seen a sensible argument against the idea that somebody of sound mind shouldn’t get to decide when to check out for themselves.
- karencarits 2y ago
  There are many sensible arguments both for and against. BBC has a very short review of some main arguments for and against: * For: https://www.bbc.co.uk/ethics/euthanasia/infavour/infavour_1.shtml https://www.bbc.co.uk/ethics/euthanasia/infavour/infavour_1.... * Against: https://www.bbc.co.uk/ethics/euthanasia/against/against_1.shtml https://www.bbc.co.uk/ethics/euthanasia/against/against_1.sh...
  - int_19h 2y ago
    Most of these aren't sensible.
    - mattmaroon 2y ago
      They really aren’t, I can’t believe someone here would link that.
      - karencarits 2y ago
        While I disagree with some of them and find some more important than others, I think that the lists cover most of the arguments and positions mentioned by people here on HN
        mattmaroon 2y ago
        I don’t think I’ve ever seen anyone use religious arguments on here and I’ve been here since the beginning. Most of those arguments are religious. I do not consider “Euthanasia is against the word and will of God” a sensible argument, though I realize, of course, that like half of humanity would disagree with me. But nobody who has any formal training and philosophy or debate would. If the opposite of a statement is just as valid as a statement, it is not an argument. For instance, I could say it is God’s will that we do euthanize people so that they don’t suffer, and God gave us the intelligence to find ways to die that are significantly less painful. My argument has no less logic than theirs. If “nuh uh” is a substantial rebuttal, your argument isn’t sensible.
notatoad 2y ago
>She passed, he called his doctor and less than a week later he was also dead. this doesn't sound right? MAiD has a 90-day waiting period. He had to have started that process before his wife passed, and just picked the date after she passed.
- guyzero 2y ago
  I completely admit I have a limited, second-hand account of the situation. It's quite possible that the circumstances were such that this was planned in advance of the wife's passing.
  - taatof 2y ago
    [flagged]
iLoveOncall 2y ago
I'm sorry but people that just lost their life partner a week ago are really not "of sound mind" when it comes to taking such kind of decision and it's criminal in my opinion to let them. What's next? We let teenagers choose to die after their first love breaks up with them? I'm neither against nor for euthanasia, but I also think the situations where it's the best solution for everyone are extremely rare.
- lotsofpulp 2y ago
  I doubt the story that poster wrote is true. The actual MAiD policies are very sensible. https://www.canada.ca/en/health-canada/services/health-services-benefits/medical-assistance-dying.html https://www.canada.ca/en/health-canada/services/health-servi... > Your eligibility assessment must take a minimum of 90 days, unless the assessments have been completed sooner and you are at immediate risk of losing your capacity to consent.
- agumonkey 2y ago
  Depends on the person but surviving this kind of damage can also equate to near existential death anyway.
- saghm 2y ago
  Other replies saying the process doesn't actually work like this notwithstanding, there's a pretty clear difference between someone in their 80s with ongoing cancer and a physically healthy teenager.
voisin 2y ago
> he called his doctor and less than a week later he was also dead This is wild. How can they differentiate between grief and actual clear thinking desire?
- paulcole 2y ago
  > How can they differentiate between grief and actual clear thinking desire Personally I don’t think they should. Only I know what’s in my head. I think my rules would be: 1. Terminal diagnosis at any age - No questions asked. 2. Over 70 - No questions asked — just request MAID and get it. 3. Over 50 but under 70 - Have to request MAID 2 times, separated by 1 month waiting period. Waiting period resets after a year. 4. Under 50 - Have to request MAID 3 times, each separated by 1 month waiting period. Waiting period resets after 6 months. I’d also be in favor of no questions asked at all in any situation.
  - sieabahlpark 2y ago
    [dead]
- BeefWellington 2y ago
  This is actually not possible per the requirements set out in the legislation; I suspect the poster didn't get the full picture. It's always possible an individual doctor can ignore the system and do whatever but I doubt it when there's a legal path for this spelled out. Grief on its own isn't sufficient for assisted dying.
  - supportengineer 2y ago
    >> Grief on its own isn't sufficient for assisted dying Who are you to make that call?
    - BeefWellington 2y ago
      I don't make any calls related to assisted dying; I'm referring to what the law states.
SoftTalker 2y ago
If you make to your 80s you’re on borrowed time no matter what.
LorenPechtel 2y ago
I would feel that way, also. Losing a very long term partner is a horrible blow. You go through the grief to get to better times on the other side--but if there's no other side to get to, why go through it? My memory is that the Canadian rules require more time than that so he probably had already set it up.
bamboozled 2y ago
My grandparents were way to with it to suffer as much as they did. It was honestly traumatising to watch.
dathinab 2y ago
There is a HUGE amount of things you can criticize about MAID specifically (and should) but honestly there are only a few reason why we shouldn't let the living dead go: - it's a slippery slope - they are young, they might revive (metaphorically speaking) - you believe god will punish them with eternal suffering or something, but then a lot of religions are fine with monks willfully passing one "through meditation" in old age To be clear I mean "in general". Wrt. MAID specifically e.g., a week seem .... very short ... enough for some short term depressive bout or mental leap of judgment to end your live. But then like I said there is a lot to criticize about MAID. But granting the living dead peace is, I think, not the problem here.
- dathinab 2y ago
  From other comments I learned that the period is not a week but more like 90 days and required conditions are more stringent, too. Just in case someone reads my previous comment at a later point.
- DirkH 2y ago
  The week thing is a myth. Either that part is blatantly false or someone violated MAID law. It can't happen that fast legally.
malshe 2y ago
> In one case, which was surprising to me, a man who had survived cancer - he was not terminal but certainly wasn't getting any better - elected to die via MAID after his wife died. She passed, he called his doctor and less than a week later he was also dead. He got a chance to visit his family, apparently drive around his hobby farm one more time and then that was it. He didn't want to deal with being alone and seriously ill. For some reason this made me emotional. I think I would make the same choice if I were in this position.
MichaelMoser123 2y ago
you will also end up with situations where people in that age group might be pressured by their family to choose this option.
anonzzzies 2y ago
Why surprising exactly? Sounds like their life sucked at that point.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
ProofHouse 2y ago
It’s perverse and demonic. Many people have the worst days or weeks or years that they look back on and are grateful for the life they live later, physically disabled, paralyzed, elderly, etc. During the darkest of times is when we have to care for each other, not offer a knife so to speak. Even when many during these times would’ve wanted to die and suffer greatly. It’s part of life. This is absolutely sick in a civilized society, but leave it to that murderous thug Trudeau.
- xuki 2y ago
  It's fine if you want to suffer. I personally don't want to suffer, and that should be my choice.
  - sieabahlpark 2y ago
    [dead]
- yatopifo 2y ago
  I don’t think you realize that euthanasia legislation was forced by a court even before the Liberals took power.
- Kab1r 2y ago
  Being grateful for a miserable life marginally improving does not negate otherwise unavoidable prolonged suffering.
TomK32 2y ago
Health care can do a lot these days and extend a persons life by a lot, but with this the question about the quality of life arises. Assisted dying is one answer to this. Personally, half-way through life, I plan to avoid it by keeping myself fit with exercises, cycling and running.
apwell23 2y ago
i know someone who is taking care of a parent who is bedridden and needs daiper changes every few hours. Whats suprising to me is that these parents choose to punish their kids instead of end of ending their life. selfish fucks!!
- account42 2y ago
  Absolutely vile how you can frame wanting to continue living as "punishing their kids".
  - apwell23 2y ago
    Talk to me when you have to put your life on hold and change diapers 6 times a day while tolerating abuse from dementia patient. Did you tell you kids that this what you have in store for them because you want to "continue to live" regardless of pain that causes to ppl around you? Absolutely selfish and Vile .
datavirtue 2y ago
I don't want my health holding back my family or depleting my wealth. I am 100% for MAID. If you have ever had persistent pain you know how little of it is required before you want to check out. People should be able when they want to.

darth_avocado 2y ago

I wouldn’t call someone dealing with cancer and the loss of his wife sound of mind within one week of the loss.

drjasonharrison 2y ago
Details left out of the anecdote may have included a natural death after a long period of illness. Or it may have been a sudden death.
guyzero 2y ago
He had apparently expressed his intention before she passed. I do not know all the details and this is second hand, but he apparently had a plan.
- darth_avocado 2y ago
  I would’ve expected at least a waiting period longer than a week after a traumatic event. Of course I don’t know all the circumstances around it.
  - fellowniusmonk 2y ago
    A lot of equations and generally good advice for the younger set changes when you're in you 80s. I think unless you've had a pretty unstable life or have real serious mental illness you know yourself pretty damn well by that point.
  - caseyohara 2y ago
    Who decides on the duration of the waiting period? Why can’t people be in charge of their own lives? Especially people in their 80s, they have earned the right to agency. It reminds me of OB/GYN providers that deny childless women sterilization procedures – even when they are in their 30s – ostensibly on the risk that the woman might change their mind about having children. Some people know things for certain and there is a 0% chance they are going to change their mind. Yes, irreversible decisions warrant deep consideration. But denying a full grown adult control over their life decisions is cruel and unduly authoritarian.
    - aaplok 2y ago
      The thing is, someone has to. If you walk in very drunk asking to be euthanised, one would hope that they would have to wait until you are no longer drunk to confirm you really want to be euthanised. Then, who decides on the waiting period? Likewise if a traumatic event clouds your judgement (as some events can do), it's not unreasonable to make you wait until your judgement is sound. Then someone has to decide on the waiting period. Potentially this can be studied statistically. Just collect data regularly after an event (such as binge drinking event) to evaluate how quickly people's judgement stabilises. That way we may find that the death of a spouse doesn't cloud the judgement, in which case the waiting period is 0.
      - Boogie_Man 2y ago
        Convincing your drunk friend to go to the suicide clinic and kill himself is the absolute pinnacle of "thing that's the most hilarious thing in the world while you're smashed but is absolutely horrifying the second you wake up the next morning". Anecdotally, I've heard that there's a strong link between heavy boozing and suicide, especially via firearm. One wonders if it's determined people needing courage, or drunk people becoming determined.
- rightbyte 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - guyzero 2y ago
    I believe they had a funeral together. That was part of the reason for the short waiting time.
    - rightbyte 2y ago
      Ok it just feels so sad in some way.
  - dang 2y ago
    Please don't add snark into a topic like this. It demeans the discussion, and we're all worse for that. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
    - rightbyte 2y ago
      Ye sorry didn't mean to come out as snarky. There is this old man that get to watch a color movie before being put to death in the movie. I didn't mean the escavator scene in some sort of meme reference. More like some slippery slope argument.
jstummbillig 2y ago
I think in a case like this, it’s simple to introspect, hard to empathize with the person that matters, and easy confuse the two.
Jimmc414 2y ago
Agreed, but requiring one's psychology be stabilized before they can die of despair seems to miss the point
- Spivak 2y ago
  This happens with transgender individuals looking to start hrt stuck in a basically the same catch-22. It's an uphill legal battle to get people to understand that laws saying you have to get the patient's depression, anxiety, and suicidal ideation completely under control before they're allowed to start hrt when that's the source of those problems is untenable. Because while there are reasonable and empathetic folks there's faction who is pushing these laws as a means of soft-outlawing the treatment all together. Ahh local politics, truly nothing else like it.

RandomThoughts3 2y ago

To be honest, my grand parents both died in their nineties and their last two years were really sad. It was not so much the physical decline but the mental one. At the end, while technically alive, so little of who they were as persons remained, they might as well have been dead. I fully understand someone in their 80s knowing the end is near choosing to leave on their own term.

karencarits 2y ago
I appreciate you sharing your perspective. I wondered, when you described feeling "really sad" and the sense that people "might as well have been dead," I'm wondering if you're speaking about your own emotional response or trying to convey how the individuals themselves felt about their situation? Edited to sound less harsh
- RandomThoughts3 2y ago
  Well, they experienced extended physical suffering and having the mental acuity of a toddler. Feel free to try to convince me that not being able to recognise your own kids and the person you have been married with for seventy years while gradually fully losing your hearing and sight and not being able to leave a bed is somehow a worthy experience. I personally question if you can even talk of experiencing anything because that would imply there is something left which can meaningfully process experiences. And that’s the part which came after the initial decline when they were just insanely mean to their loved ones all the time. You do sound harsh by the way.
  - karencarits 2y ago
    Thank you for clarifying! I've edited my comment to - hopefully - sound less confrontational
  - stavros 2y ago
    My grandfather had Alzheimer's, and for years he lived a stressful life. He constantly kept wondering why he's not in his home (he was), as well as some random paranoia, like that I was a thief that had come to steal from him, or that he was elected mayor against his will, etc. It wasn't great for him.

nashashmi 2y ago

This! People feel like they cannot live alone or they cannot want that someone else be caused hardship (time or money) because of their difficulty. I feel like I will get downvoted to oblivion just because people vehemently disagree, but THIS CANNOT be the meaning and choice behind death. It is simply immature, arrogant, and selfish. But more plainly, it is suicidal / self-relentment.

mjevans 2y ago
My sample size as an adult is still small, but I've seen this in pets and I've seen this in humans. The downward slope quickens faster than any would like once it starts. The body or the mind slips away, leaving someone either trapped in a shell that doesn't work, or momentary fragments of the person who was among a sea of futile vapid existence. Our medical technology is not there and shows little sign of being close to resolving either issue. Rather than slowly wasting away I too would rather have the option to twist to the side off the cliff rather than the long slow painful stair tumble down the hill.
- nashashmi 2y ago
  You might be narrowing the definition of life to mean "body and mind fully active; useful spirited existence; painless existence". But ask the senile when they are no longer senile, or the once-despressed, or the ones who live in pain (sickle-cell anemic?) if death is better.
Freak_NL 2y ago
Who are you to judge whether someone who has lived for over seven decades should go on living or not? If they feel their life is done, have nothing left to live for, and fear degenerating into a husk of their former selves (dementia) stuck inside a broken brain for as long as their body holds out, than why should they hang on? It's arrogant and selfish to force people to live on for as long as doctors can keep their body alive. No euthanasia just means more messy suicides.
- nashashmi 2y ago

pj_mukh 2y ago

My dad (age 75) got diagnosed with ALS and within a month of the diagnosis opted for MAID. He had only just lost control of one leg, but he knew what was coming. As much as we begged him for more time, he didn't want any of it. Till his dying breath he kept repeating how thankful he was that he lived in a country that didn't force him to live on when he didn't want to. He was a clear Track 1 case, and I realize Track 2 cases are more complicated, but just wanted to add my story as reporting on MAID spins out of control in our culture war milieu.

guyzero 2y ago
I'm sorry for your loss.
fellowniusmonk 2y ago
Yeah man, it does suck. I do wish I'd had more time with both my parents, they both died really early in their 50s, I don't think you can ever have "enough" time. I wish my mother had been given the option in her early 50s, the number of people punished by authoritarian governments that deny self determinism and force people to be put through experiences literally worse than torture is mind boggling, I cannot fathom it. I don't think anyone who has seen it even a single time can honestly make slippery slope arguments, I have to assume it's ignorance and that these people are simply "actually" nerds doing recreational theory crafting. I assume it's the same headspace as flat earthers, it doesn't effect me so why should I care about aligning my thoughts with the real world, let me invent theoretical overlords and victims and argue about this new synthetic world that exists in my imagination. I just can't be uncharitable enough to believe a person who has seen it first hand, that a person would embrace such unfettered cruelty as to deny a person living in constant hell a drop of water. That being said... fuck, back in 2000 I did meet a bunch of people that denied hiv existed and said even if it did it was a punishment on gay people and it would be better if it wasn't cured so they would be scared and "behave" (yes, I personally met these people, the non-existence was rare but the "shouldn't develop treatment" was not a minority view in the city I lived in at the time.) After my mother died, for a while I volunteered with "No one dies alone.", I doubt a single person who has done so for any length of time is going to argue "slippery slope".

Salgat 2y ago

I know it's morbid to discuss but the relief of financial burden on society is also significant. Not only do they die with dignity, but they are giving back to society.

saulpw 2y ago
Not to society, but to their loved ones. Whether their children via inheritance or their spouse they didn't bankrupt.
tacticalturtle 2y ago
This is not a good argument for MAID, and I think there are countless dystopian sci-fi stories that exhibit this reasoning that I’d like to avoid (The Giver, Logan’s Run, Soylent Green, etc) If we start looking at people who use MAID as selfless because they are “giving back to society”, and relieving the “financial burden”, what does that make people who choose to stick around? Are they selfish? No one should be pressured or guilted into choosing an option like MAID - people are more than just balances on a spreadsheet.
- Salgat 2y ago
  To clarify, it's not an argument being made, it's an appreciation for the full extent of what they are doing.
supportengineer 2y ago
Agree 100%. I am hoping to use the MAID option on myself one day. Cancer runs in the family. Of course I hope to get to at least 80 or so. There is definitely such a thing as a "good death" and a "bad death" having seen both close-up in family members. Knowing my $ is going to my children instead of some scammy health insurance providers will give me the final smile on my face, and my last thought will be "I WON"
proactivesvcs 2y ago
They've already given to society, probably for most of their lives. It is now their turn to have some small amount returned.

giarc 2y ago

In your first example, I suspect there was probably other things present you weren't made aware of. Currently the requirements in Canada include (only copy those relevant to your example). -have a serious and incurable illness, disease or disability (excluding a mental illness until March 17, 2027) -be in an advanced state of irreversible decline in capability -have enduring and intolerable physical or psychological suffering that cannot be alleviated under conditions the person considers acceptable https://www.justice.gc.ca/eng/cj-jp/ad-am/bk-di.html#s1 https://www.justice.gc.ca/eng/cj-jp/ad-am/bk-di.html#s1

nprateem 2y ago
It sounds like the last one is the get out of jail free card.
- cperciva 2y ago
  The "alleviated under conditions the person considers acceptable" clause is very broad, but doctors have to first agree that the person is suffering intolerably, so it's not entirely a blanket clause.
- dghlsakjg 2y ago
  That isn’t the full list, and all of the criteria must be met, not just one of them.
guyzero 2y ago
Yes, I know very little other than that he was a cancer "survivor" - he wasn't about to die of cancer imminently but I think he had some sort of long-term ongoing health issues. But he was apparently well enough to drive a car!

wpietri 2y ago

Yeah, I get that. Once you've accepted death is inevitable, you start to think carefully about what kind of death you want. My parents both died of glioblastomas, a particularly aggressive form of brain cancer. As the surgeon explained after the biopsy, "This is what you will die from." 3 months from diagnosis to death for my mom, a year and change for my dad. Seeing that process up close made very clear to me what I wanted for myself. All of this was reinforced for me by the experience of Brittany Maynard: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brittany_Maynard https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brittany_Maynard She was diagnosed with a glioblastoma and was given 6 months to live. She moved from California to Oregon so she could die in a controlled and humane manner. She wrote about that here: https://www.cnn.com/2014/10/07/opinion/maynard-assisted-suicide-cancer-dignity/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2014/10/07/opinion/maynard-assisted-suic... I get the thought of medically-assisted suicide wigs some people out, and we have to be careful to make sure the urge isn't just a temporary distortion of mood and thought. But having seen it up close, I am very much not interested in spending months dying slowly and dragging my family through hell just to make sure random people not involved don't have to think about hard things or deal with their feelings about death.

geysersam 2y ago
That must have been tough. May I ask what made them ill? The odds that they both got the same relatively rare disease by chance seems slim
- wpietri 2y ago
  Yeah, they were actually both left temporal lobe glioblastomas. Every time that comes up with a doctor they get a funny look and ask where they lived, obviously suspecting some environmental cause. The short answer is people almost never know the cause of a glioblastoma. My parents only lived in the same place for like 6 years, and they moved around a fair bit. Nobody else in my family had one so far, so the next likely data points are me and my brother. Not a lot you can do anyhow, so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Yeul 2y ago

[flagged]

gambiting 2y ago
Well that entire dogma is giving us monsters like Mother Theresa who thought that by letting people in her care suffer she made it more likely they will make it to heaven - and well, the Catholic Church has agreed with that interpretation and made her a Saint. This was touched upon in a game called Indika released this year......there's a story there how a guy ended the suffering of his young child who was in constant pain, and was told by a priest during confession time "well you see by killing your son you condemned your soul to eternity in hell, but your child is now definitely in heaven, so actually you did a good thing by sacrificing yourself!". And so the guy went and killed the rest of his family, having come to a logical conclusion that he can't get any more condemned to hell than he already is, but if he guarantees that his entire family goes into heaven then surely that's an absolutely amazing thing to do. I don't know if this was based on a true story or not, but the logic totally applies.
- adamiscool8 2y ago
  The alternative dogma of egocentric hedonism creates at least as many monsters.
  - contravariant 2y ago
    I'm doubtful. Way more people are willing to hurt others if they think it's for the greater good compared to people willing to hurt others just for personal gain.
  - gambiting 2y ago
    Why is the alternative dogma egocentric hedonism? To me, the alternative to what she was doing is "dogma" of caring for another human. If they need help, if they cry out in pain, help them - not collect imaginary points of sending them to heaven. Not sure where egocentric hedonism plays into this.

nicoburns 2y ago

It's not at all surprising to me! I fully expect to want to euthanise myself once I'm done with life (and I'm going to be pretty upset if it's not an option for me when it gets to that point). People tell me I'll change my mind (perhaps similarly to how people treat people who say they don't want kids). But I doubt I will. I've seen lot's of older people (and people who's lives are not good) still want this when it comes to the time when it applies. The only reason it's not more commonplace is social stigma (and legal obstacles) against it.

tokioyoyo 2y ago
I live in the neighbourhood in Canada with a lot of elder people. I mentioned in one of my previous comments as well, and MAiD is probably one of the best things that happened in our country in the past decade. I have distant relatives who took the MAiD way out (one because of the age, the other one terminal illness). It's not very uncommon to hear once every quarter in the coffee shop in my neighbourhood people chatting about this program. Older people are generally happy having a way out, rather than suffering and bringing pain to their close ones. Both of my parents (in their 70s) mentioned how they want to go out the same way once they're incapable of living and start suffering. I feel the same about it as well. I understand there are very small amount of cases where people shouldn't be able to take this way out, but it's a net good. I really hate how global media is trying to turn it into a big conversation and "slippery slope", because if anyone who has seen their loved one suffer... they would never want this program to end.
- neom 2y ago
  These HN comments are both uplifting and wild to me at the same time. I live downtown Toronto, work on Bay St and all I hear is how insane we are allowing all these people to kill themselves with MAID, even on the occasions I log onto twitter, if Canadian stuff comes up I always see some "omg the Canadians are crazy all killing themselves" - I always thought MAID was great but had started to wonder if I'm wrong headed about that.
  - tokioyoyo 2y ago

rahimnathwani 2y ago

I can understand this intellectually/rationally, but I can't imagine actually making such a decision.

polski-g 2y ago
Imagine being in pain, all day, every day. Can you imagine such a decision now?
- rahimnathwani 2y ago
  Without access to painkillers, sure, yes.
  - Philadelphia 2y ago
    Painkillers don’t work for many types of pain
    - BeefWellington 2y ago
      And they often come with a host of awful side effects and/or are addictive in nature, and often requiring a slowly increasing dose to be effective.
gosub100 2y ago
I could see making the decision and then chickening out as soon as it was time to get to business.
- rahimnathwani 2y ago
  Me too.

heroprotagonist 2y ago

My great-grandfather stuck around for a year or two with various eldery-issues after his wife died. Then he had to hang himself, because there was no legal or easy way to humanely end his own life. Apparently he did it wrong, but died anyway. Just more slowly and more painfully, without any support.

mattmaroon 2y ago

I’ve never seen a sensible argument against the idea that somebody of sound mind shouldn’t get to decide when to check out for themselves.

karencarits 2y ago
There are many sensible arguments both for and against. BBC has a very short review of some main arguments for and against: * For: https://www.bbc.co.uk/ethics/euthanasia/infavour/infavour_1.shtml https://www.bbc.co.uk/ethics/euthanasia/infavour/infavour_1.... * Against: https://www.bbc.co.uk/ethics/euthanasia/against/against_1.shtml https://www.bbc.co.uk/ethics/euthanasia/against/against_1.sh...
- int_19h 2y ago
  Most of these aren't sensible.
  - mattmaroon 2y ago
    They really aren’t, I can’t believe someone here would link that.
    - karencarits 2y ago
      While I disagree with some of them and find some more important than others, I think that the lists cover most of the arguments and positions mentioned by people here on HN
      - mattmaroon 2y ago
        I don’t think I’ve ever seen anyone use religious arguments on here and I’ve been here since the beginning. Most of those arguments are religious. I do not consider “Euthanasia is against the word and will of God” a sensible argument, though I realize, of course, that like half of humanity would disagree with me. But nobody who has any formal training and philosophy or debate would. If the opposite of a statement is just as valid as a statement, it is not an argument. For instance, I could say it is God’s will that we do euthanize people so that they don’t suffer, and God gave us the intelligence to find ways to die that are significantly less painful. My argument has no less logic than theirs. If “nuh uh” is a substantial rebuttal, your argument isn’t sensible.

notatoad 2y ago

>She passed, he called his doctor and less than a week later he was also dead. this doesn't sound right? MAiD has a 90-day waiting period. He had to have started that process before his wife passed, and just picked the date after she passed.

guyzero 2y ago
I completely admit I have a limited, second-hand account of the situation. It's quite possible that the circumstances were such that this was planned in advance of the wife's passing.
- taatof 2y ago
  [flagged]

iLoveOncall 2y ago

I'm sorry but people that just lost their life partner a week ago are really not "of sound mind" when it comes to taking such kind of decision and it's criminal in my opinion to let them. What's next? We let teenagers choose to die after their first love breaks up with them? I'm neither against nor for euthanasia, but I also think the situations where it's the best solution for everyone are extremely rare.

lotsofpulp 2y ago
I doubt the story that poster wrote is true. The actual MAiD policies are very sensible. https://www.canada.ca/en/health-canada/services/health-services-benefits/medical-assistance-dying.html https://www.canada.ca/en/health-canada/services/health-servi... > Your eligibility assessment must take a minimum of 90 days, unless the assessments have been completed sooner and you are at immediate risk of losing your capacity to consent.
agumonkey 2y ago
Depends on the person but surviving this kind of damage can also equate to near existential death anyway.
saghm 2y ago
Other replies saying the process doesn't actually work like this notwithstanding, there's a pretty clear difference between someone in their 80s with ongoing cancer and a physically healthy teenager.

voisin 2y ago

> he called his doctor and less than a week later he was also dead This is wild. How can they differentiate between grief and actual clear thinking desire?

paulcole 2y ago
> How can they differentiate between grief and actual clear thinking desire Personally I don’t think they should. Only I know what’s in my head. I think my rules would be: 1. Terminal diagnosis at any age - No questions asked. 2. Over 70 - No questions asked — just request MAID and get it. 3. Over 50 but under 70 - Have to request MAID 2 times, separated by 1 month waiting period. Waiting period resets after a year. 4. Under 50 - Have to request MAID 3 times, each separated by 1 month waiting period. Waiting period resets after 6 months. I’d also be in favor of no questions asked at all in any situation.
- sieabahlpark 2y ago
  [dead]
BeefWellington 2y ago
This is actually not possible per the requirements set out in the legislation; I suspect the poster didn't get the full picture. It's always possible an individual doctor can ignore the system and do whatever but I doubt it when there's a legal path for this spelled out. Grief on its own isn't sufficient for assisted dying.
- supportengineer 2y ago
  >> Grief on its own isn't sufficient for assisted dying Who are you to make that call?
  - BeefWellington 2y ago
    I don't make any calls related to assisted dying; I'm referring to what the law states.

SoftTalker 2y ago

If you make to your 80s you’re on borrowed time no matter what.

LorenPechtel 2y ago

I would feel that way, also. Losing a very long term partner is a horrible blow. You go through the grief to get to better times on the other side--but if there's no other side to get to, why go through it? My memory is that the Canadian rules require more time than that so he probably had already set it up.

bamboozled 2y ago

My grandparents were way to with it to suffer as much as they did. It was honestly traumatising to watch.

dathinab 2y ago

There is a HUGE amount of things you can criticize about MAID specifically (and should) but honestly there are only a few reason why we shouldn't let the living dead go: - it's a slippery slope - they are young, they might revive (metaphorically speaking) - you believe god will punish them with eternal suffering or something, but then a lot of religions are fine with monks willfully passing one "through meditation" in old age To be clear I mean "in general". Wrt. MAID specifically e.g., a week seem .... very short ... enough for some short term depressive bout or mental leap of judgment to end your live. But then like I said there is a lot to criticize about MAID. But granting the living dead peace is, I think, not the problem here.

dathinab 2y ago
From other comments I learned that the period is not a week but more like 90 days and required conditions are more stringent, too. Just in case someone reads my previous comment at a later point.
DirkH 2y ago
The week thing is a myth. Either that part is blatantly false or someone violated MAID law. It can't happen that fast legally.

malshe 2y ago

> In one case, which was surprising to me, a man who had survived cancer - he was not terminal but certainly wasn't getting any better - elected to die via MAID after his wife died. She passed, he called his doctor and less than a week later he was also dead. He got a chance to visit his family, apparently drive around his hobby farm one more time and then that was it. He didn't want to deal with being alone and seriously ill. For some reason this made me emotional. I think I would make the same choice if I were in this position.

MichaelMoser123 2y ago

you will also end up with situations where people in that age group might be pressured by their family to choose this option.

anonzzzies 2y ago

Why surprising exactly? Sounds like their life sucked at that point.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

ProofHouse 2y ago

It’s perverse and demonic. Many people have the worst days or weeks or years that they look back on and are grateful for the life they live later, physically disabled, paralyzed, elderly, etc. During the darkest of times is when we have to care for each other, not offer a knife so to speak. Even when many during these times would’ve wanted to die and suffer greatly. It’s part of life. This is absolutely sick in a civilized society, but leave it to that murderous thug Trudeau.

xuki 2y ago
It's fine if you want to suffer. I personally don't want to suffer, and that should be my choice.
- sieabahlpark 2y ago
  [dead]
yatopifo 2y ago
I don’t think you realize that euthanasia legislation was forced by a court even before the Liberals took power.
Kab1r 2y ago
Being grateful for a miserable life marginally improving does not negate otherwise unavoidable prolonged suffering.

TomK32 2y ago

Health care can do a lot these days and extend a persons life by a lot, but with this the question about the quality of life arises. Assisted dying is one answer to this. Personally, half-way through life, I plan to avoid it by keeping myself fit with exercises, cycling and running.

apwell23 2y ago

i know someone who is taking care of a parent who is bedridden and needs daiper changes every few hours. Whats suprising to me is that these parents choose to punish their kids instead of end of ending their life. selfish fucks!!

account42 2y ago
Absolutely vile how you can frame wanting to continue living as "punishing their kids".
- apwell23 2y ago
  Talk to me when you have to put your life on hold and change diapers 6 times a day while tolerating abuse from dementia patient. Did you tell you kids that this what you have in store for them because you want to "continue to live" regardless of pain that causes to ppl around you? Absolutely selfish and Vile .

datavirtue 2y ago

I don't want my health holding back my family or depleting my wealth. I am 100% for MAID. If you have ever had persistent pain you know how little of it is required before you want to check out. People should be able when they want to.