17 ms·

Air Con: $1697 for an on/off switch

• DarmokJalad1701 2y ago
  > I cut my teeth on Softice in DOS Ah .. takes me back.
• bschwindHN 2y ago
  This is entirely too much bullshit to run an aircon, what the hell are we doing? A tablet should _never_ be required just to control the heating/cooling.
• 0704227255 2y ago
  0704227255 Muradiallaberdee@gmail.com
• kmacdough 2y ago
  Right. To. Repair. Companies won't stop fighting it. We mustn't stop fighting for it.
• canadaduane 2y ago
  Sounds like there could be a niche business here. "$300 and we'll send you a new on/off switch, shipping included."
• syntaxing 2y ago
  I don’t quite get why snipping the data line on the PoE to USB fixed the connection issue. Is it because the USB has “two” data lines?
  • svieira 2y ago
    That is how I read it.
  • kalleboo 2y ago
    The "PoE"[0] board was also a USB device wired onto the pins for the single USB port on the board. USB is not a multidrop bus - if you directly wire two devices to a single USB port it will not work, you need an active USB hub. [0]quotes because looking at that FTDI chip though my bet is it's actually serial over Cat5...
    • ranebo 2y ago
      I think it is some sort of serial comm over cat5. My only concern was getting the thing working again :) But if still interested here is a close up of the chip side of the POE connector: https://blog.hopefullyuseful.com/blog/advantage-air-ezone-tablet-diy-repair/IMG_4831.jpeg https://blog.hopefullyuseful.com/blog/advantage-air-ezone-ta...
      • nehz 2y ago
        Cheers, I am looking at this for our system but it is still working so I didn't want to mess it up, but was planning for the eventuality... I've been reverse engineering the app, so your post has cleared a few things up for me :) The plan is to get rid of the tablet and put a Amazon echo hub or HA on a tablet that directly controls the aircon in the future
        • FLT8 2y ago
          Feel free to reach out, a few people from this thread seem to be doing similar things, including looking at the protocols involved and interop requirements. It would be good to combine efforts if you're that way inclined. As far as HA integration goes, there's already an adapter available that uses the HTTP API that the tablet exposes. This of course still requires a working tablet though. The next step for an open solution would be to either write a replacement for the tablet API that talks directly to the control box using RS485 (which will have the benefit of allowing existing integrations to work as-is), or perhaps even ignore the original API and start from scratch with something custom built for HA integration. The original HTTP API that the tablet exposes is relatively straightforward, but it also commits quite a few sins against HTTP, such as mutating state on GET requests (making CSRF type attacks trivial). This makes a like-for-like replacement a little less palatable in my eyes. The other tricky thing is that the tablet code is where a lot of the state is kept and the smarts of the system are located. Zone names and config, schedules, temperature sensor pairing, ... replacing the tablet API completely like-for-like might be tricky, but doing just enough to support HA integration (maybe submitting a patch to the existing integration to support the new custom API) is probably a much easier task. There should be no need to rebuild features that HA already has such as scheduling etc.
  • hex4def6 2y ago
    Because USB is not a multi-tap network. It's a point-to-point between host and peripheral, or host and host pretending to be a peripheral (OTG mode). That USB dongle was bodged on to the USB port D+/D- pins going to the tablet's SOC. If you then connect a PC to that port, you have two hosts (SOC & PC), and one peripheral on the same pair of data lines. No bueno. I can't believe the bodge job inside that tablet. It looks like the prototype became the final product.
    • ornornor 2y ago
      That’s why the replacement is so expensive, each unit is handcrafted.
• aledalgrande 2y ago
  That "not on AA hardware" error from an app running on a plain Android tablet should be criminal.
  • gwd 2y ago
    In defense of this, remember that any random person can download and install this app on any android device. It does make sense to have a clear failure mode in this case. Anyone willing to pull out a soldering iron to attach a new tablet is perfectly capable of working around this.
    • SahAssar 2y ago
      If that was the motivation it should be a warning, not a hard error.
    • prmoustache 2y ago
      What is the risk here?
      • gwd 2y ago
        Consider the following scenario: 1. Someone owns one of these systems which is functioning perfectly well. 2. They stumble across a link allowing them to download the controller app, and so they install it on their normal tablet, expecting to be able to control the system from their tablet 3a. It doesn't work, so they contact technical support. Technical support wastes a bunch of time before figuring out why the app isn't working, only eventually to realize what's going on. 3b. They can't get the app to work, and so slag the system on social media. Both have costs both to the people who end up downloading it, and to the company -- costs which could be avoided by having a simple error message.
        • passwordoops 2y ago
          There's nothing wrong with this scenario per se, but there's a 100% chance this is not the reason for their decision
• lelandfe 2y ago
  > For whatever reason (I suspect some sort of storage failure) everyone’s tablets die around the same time. What a fun, completely coincidental quirk that that time appears to fall outside the warranty window, hey?
  • irjustin 2y ago
    knowing a lot of these companies. it wouldn't really matter if it fell inside of the warranty. they would simply screw a lot of people over until there's a class action lawsuit (or whatever equivalent is in that country) where they get a slap on the wrist for not honoring warranty claims.
    • KennyBlanken 2y ago
      Carrier back in the 2000's had a problem with their heat exchangers in their gas furnaces failing far more often than they should. They were sued, settled, and part of the settlement was an extended warranty of the heat exchanger, including labor. Great, right? The local carrier dealer lied and said the unit wasn't under warranty. They lied again when reminded of the class-action settlement, claiming only part were included and said would cost a fortune in labor. When I called Carrier and told them what their factory authorized gold/preferred/whatever-they're-called dealer was pulling, Carrier confirmed I was correct and even verified the unit's serial number and said that if the dealer had checked the SN, they would have found it was covered. The dealer then said 'fine, but those parts are going to take weeks to get from the warehouse' knowing damn well I had no heat, in the winter. They had us over a barrel and they fucking knew it, and I didn't have any way to prove that claim wrong.
      • Marsymars 2y ago
        I'd have let the dealer do the install, and then only brought up the fact that it was under warranty afterwards.
    • deleted 2y ago
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    • 2y ago
• poidos 2y ago
  What a waste. Real great for the environment for this company to (probably) just be junking a ton of hardware in perfect working order every couple years to make a buck. Fun read otherwise and wonderful to see someone stick it to them this way, but that type of thing really pisses me off.
• redact207 2y ago
  I love that this man resurrected his blog after 10 years just to write this. Anger and spite are strong motivators.
  • ranebo 2y ago
    You have no idea how true this is :). I had to upgrade everything, the old site didn't even have SSL. But this annoyed me so much I wanted others to know how to fix it.
    • randmeerkat 2y ago
      > You have no idea how true this is :). I had to upgrade everything, the old site didn't even have SSL. But this annoyed me so much I wanted others to know how to fix it. People like you are the ones that make the internet worth logging on for.
      • deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]
    • runnr_az 2y ago
      Super fun read. Reminds me of the old software cracking days… totally appreciate you sharing it, even though i likely will never have one of those AC units.
    • anfilt 2y ago
      Glad you did! Nice read as well.
    • mst 2y ago
      My best open source work is pretty much entirely in the 'Rage Driven Development' category. (solid post, also solid rant, mate)
    • skinkestek 2y ago
      Hopefully this costs the company that tried to fleece you even more money in backlash and also as more people see that is possible to fix this.
• gary_0 2y ago
  Anyone remember the movie Brazil? This fellow better watch his back. https://youtube.com/watch?v=dht_3NziwSw https://youtube.com/watch?v=dht_3NziwSw
• deleted 2y ago
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• deleted 2y ago
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• Nursie 2y ago
  Well that's getting a bookmark! We had an Advantage Air system installed last year, and the cheap, low-powered nature of the tablet was immediately obvious. Nice to know it can fairly easily be replaced with any old device or phone as and when it craps out.
  • bsder 2y ago
    I would probably replace it now while everything is working. You know that tablet is cheap and is going to die. Figure out the procedure to replace it with something that doesn't suck before you've lost your heat/air conditioning.
    • Nursie 2y ago
      Right now we're still in warranty but you're right, it's probably a good plan to get the contingency in place before it becomes a problem.
      • cmcaleer 2y ago
        You can also plan it out so it's a neater install if you do the installation now, rather than when it craps out. I know for a fact that if I had to do what this guy is after this quest with no functioning air con, that tablet is dangling out the wall for about 2 years until I bother to look at it again.
• 0cf8612b2e1e 2y ago
  Reaffirming my belief that I want nothing “smart” controlling critical infrastructure in my home. What if it were dead of winter, would he have been able to control the heat?
  • boardwaalk 2y ago
    There are thermostats, among other things, that use standard protocols and still work in a “dumb” way if not connected. You just need to do some homework.
    • maxerickson 2y ago
      The thing in the article is a thermostat-zone controller system, where the tablet is part of the multi-zone controller, and there aren't really separate thermostats. In the US, it's common that the input to each zone controller is just a open/close contact, so in the worst case you can call for heat by shorting the right wires together. I have a smart thermostat that I use the provided app to control, but one of the reasons I went with it is that there's also an http server in the device firmware that can be used to control it (so if they totally ruin the app or turn off the server or whatever, there's a way out).
      • weikju 2y ago
        > (so if they totally ruin the app or turn off the server or whatever, there's a way out) It's not impossible that when this happens, they'd also first push out an update to disable the http server.
        • maxerickson 2y ago
          True. The remote features are somewhat focused on multi building commercial users, so I am not real worried that they will aggressively ruin it.
  • dilyevsky 2y ago
    There needs to be a law that any hardware/software that goes into people homes has to be gplv3. Instead we get braindead ai bills that are threatening to kill open models…
• cbanek 2y ago
  This is when smart gets stupid. I'm a bit worried about this with my nest and other smart devices, but even with normal air conditioners there are a few stupid simple problems that will cost you hundreds of dollars! A couple of weeks ago my AC blower fan stopped working, the compressor would run. I went up and found out that the capacitor was bad, and took a picture of it, buying a replacement. Took about 15 minutes to replace and I probably saved myself at least $400 (no AC is an emergency in the desert, and they will charge you accordingly). Fixing household appliances can be fun too!
  • asah 2y ago
    +1. Repair all sorts of stuff... Capresso burr grinder, little plastic knob broke off inside, repaired with a 10c washer and glue... worked great for years and you'd never know...
  • SOLAR_FIELDS 2y ago
    I highly recommend people who live in hot environments to keep a spare capacitor on hand. Even if you know how to fix it, if the AC dies when your local HVAC supply store is closed (eg not between 7am-7pm Monday through Saturday usually) you’re either stuck paying out the nose to a contractor who has one on hand during emergency hours or you’re sweating it out waiting for the store to open. While they are readily available components that consumers can purchase, they aren’t things that Walmart carries. But HVAC supply shops will sell them to you, you don’t need to be licensed or anything to buy them. You can also just get them on Amazon, likely for cheaper than the HVAC supply shop will sell them to you. It really is an easy repair. Needs a screwdriver and knowledge enough to shut off the electricity to touch the wires. According to code every one of these condenser units outside has a disconnect right there so you don’t even need to turn off the power at the breaker box. Just pull that disconnect, open up your outdoor condenser unit, snap a pic of the specs on the capacitor (it’s the only thing that looks like a soda can) and order one off Amazon and stash it somewhere. It’s a tiny part. It will take like 5 minutes max and save you several hundred bucks and a lot of sweat eventually. FWIW, when ac dies it’s usually in this order of root causes: Float switch: your condensate drain line got clogged because it just does and you need to clear it. You can proactively prevent this by pouring bleach or vinegar down the line periodically (what clogs it is usually some sort of gnarly plant like growth from all the moisture) or if it’s clogged you need to clear it. The hvac guys will charge you 300 bucks to blow pressurized air through the pipe or you can literally just duct tape a wet shop vac to the thing and suck it out yourself. Attachments can be purchased on Amazon for reasonable price. A capacitor issue is the second most common. If it ain’t the float switch almost always it’s the capacitor. You can increase your capacitor longevity and also decrease your electric bill by changing your air filter regularly but also hosing down the outside condenser coils every few months or so. Almost everyone knows about the air filter but few people know about hosing down the coils. This makes a HUGE difference. We are talking like 20-30% of your electric bill in hot climates if you don’t do it. Just take a hose and spray downward on the grates and get all that dust and dead grass from mowing out of there. You won’t hurt the thing. Why does this help? Well, it’s better to think of AC not as adding cool air. There’s no such thing as adding cool air. Only removal of heat. How does heat get removed out of your house? Through that condenser unit. If those grates are clogged up the heat cannot escape and the unit must work harder to do less effective job. So keep those coils clean. Everything else after that is way less common. Yeah compressors do die. Motors die. Refrigerant leaks. Computer components die. Thermostats fail. However it’s very rare that the issue is something other than these two things in comparison. Like probably 80% of all HVAC residential calls are probably the above two things I mentioned.
• ehhthing 2y ago
  It's unlikely that the company itself makes these tablets, they probably buy bulk off Alibaba or something and they all probably fail at the same time because the were all made at the same time. The real problem is that the quoted replacement price is so high, given that we know the tablets themselves are like $30 each.
  • BizarroLand 2y ago
    I bet it's the POE part that is the issue. They could control the whole system over POE with a bog standard usb to ethernet adapter, make the app easily run on any android device and charge the customer less for a better more reliable product, but rather than do that they rigged up some janky interface and built a custom enclosure hired out to an overseas manufacturer who bought the parts for $20 and charged the middleman $100 for them, who then charged the dealer $250 for them, who then charged the installer $600 for them, who then charged the customer $1600 for them. (Got to get that 2.5x margin on hardware every step of the way, after all!) If they had gone with a POE system, wiring would have been cheap, replacement parts plentiful, and customer satisfaction would be sky high. Sure, you would sell fewer full systems, but to me that is a small price to pay for having the most useful and interesting systems on the market with fans creating all sorts of mods and integrations for your equipment and becoming customers for life.
• nyanpasu64 2y ago
  > The original ezone tablet had been running Android 6.0, this Samsung was still on 5.0 but I didnt think that would cause any issues so I got started on doing what was clearly missing: The required apps. All ezone apps are available both on the Advantage Air website and the apkpure site. I only learned of the apkpure site from a post claiming he had been directed to it by a AA tech support person. Redirecting your customers to a third-party/pirate APK redistributor of unknown authenticity... reality defies parody.
  • Benjamin_Dobell 2y ago
    The apps are signed, so it's possible to compare signatures against the originals. I haven't seen any reports of signatures not matching from Apkpure, though certainly possible. But more importantly, what's the actual threat vector here? This isn't his personal phone. Just don't connect the tablet to your Wi-Fi. What's it going to do, sneakily increase your temperature by 1 degree?
    • Nursie 2y ago
      AFAICT you need to have it connected to the internet so that their phone app can connect (presumably via cloud servers) to the control tablet and provide controls from your phone in and out of the house. Also if you want to integrate the air-con with general smart home stuff.
    • nyanpasu64 2y ago
      Android doesn't surface app signatures beyond requiring that updates share the same signature while the original is installed. I thought a potential app could exfiltrate data, voice, do crypto mining, act as an unauthorized VPN exit node for commercial VPNs or cyberattacks, etc.
  • userbinator 2y ago
    It's not too dissimilar to Blizzard using BitTorrent for their software updates --- a clever way of avoiding bandwidth costs. As the sibling comment mentions, they are signed files.
  • 2y ago
• system2 2y ago
  We must have an open-source policy for hardware like this. Billions if not trillions of dollars are being wasted every year because of these shitty companies. I know I am dreaming but maybe in 100 years, humanity will evolve.
  • stacktrust 2y ago
    awesome-vendor-repairability index?
• devsda 2y ago
  Unfortunately, if/when someone from the manufacturer knows about it their first thought will not be "How do we make it easier for our customers". It will most likely be "How do we restrict this hack" and will eventually get into more restricted/quirky hardware & software.
  • zekrioca 2y ago
    Yes, which is very sad. Nearly all things go into this direction. I still remember the old days of jail breaking the iPhone, and the cat and mouse chase with Apple.
  • Gabrys1 2y ago
    I don't think they'll care about this. Probably only 1% of their customers are capable of "hacking" this. As long as the tablet replace is cheaper than getting a new AC unit from another company it's fine for them.
    • OccamsMirror 2y ago
      Not even 1%. It would be interesting if someone already in AC repair made it part of their business though. That's when you'd see the teeth come out.
    • stuff4ben 2y ago
      Until someone decides to sell their fix at a cheaper price. Then lawyers will get involved and everyone will end up unhappy.
      • passwordoops 2y ago
        Except the lawyers
  • lawgimenez 2y ago
    They would have to put the condition inside shared library .so and use Android JNI. Make it complicated and hide the string tablet model throughout the code, just enough time to frustrate whoever is decompiling the so file.
• nehz 2y ago
  Any idea if that "POE board" has a FTDI USB to UART chip on it ?
  • MrBuddyCasino 2y ago
    Yeah given that USB doesn’t work over long distances there is probably a simple serial protocol waiting to be reverse engineered.
  • kalleboo 2y ago
    The dialog he got when he plugged it in mentioned FTDI and "Vinculum" which appears to be a programmable USB interface chip with serial and SPI support https://ftdichip.com/products/vnc1l-1a/ https://ftdichip.com/products/vnc1l-1a/ https://ftdichip.com/software-examples/vinculum-projects/ https://ftdichip.com/software-examples/vinculum-projects/ Since it's not just a generic non-programmable serial chip I assume it's also doing something more. But it doesn't do Ethernet so I bet it's not actually PoE but like... power+serial over Cat5
    • gstar 2y ago
      It's an FT312D, which is a purpose-built android thingy that presents a serial port and allows the tablet to charge.
• alliao 2y ago
  this guy should sell it.....
  • gotten09 2y ago
    ha, I thought the same thing.
• RockRobotRock 2y ago
  Badass! I wonder if anyone has done work to reverse engineer the USB serial connection and integrate it with Home Assistant.
  • Nursie 2y ago
    It seems like you can already integrate Home Assistant with tablet - https://www.home-assistant.io/integrations/advantage_air/ https://www.home-assistant.io/integrations/advantage_air/
• dbetteridge 2y ago
  Mate! You forgot the tried and true tradition of threatening them with the ACCC and making a stink to "A current affair" ;) Nice write up though
• WheatMillington 2y ago
  I love this kind of content, and the level of detail is just perfect for tech-adjacent people like me.
• deleted 2y ago
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• fein 2y ago
  > Forcing customers to replace an entire system just because the cheapest component failed might be really profitable Just had to deal with this recently. My gas oven control panel died and one would think to replace the control panel ($300 ish part), but I had my doubts. Pulled everything apart and hooked up a meter to what should be the power coming from the cord, no continuity. Took apart everything on the top two levels of the stovetop to find a thermal switch buried under there that had failed. That thermal switch is forever OOS (was $35 at least for a replacement if you could find one), so I hopped on amazon and bought a 5 pack of microwave thermal safety switches with the same cutoff temps for $6 that fit the push connectors. 10 year old higher end gas oven was fixed for about $1 in parts. Probably would have been at least $200 from an appliance repair company just for the labor of having to take apart the entire stovetop to get there. Not sure how many people would even bother although it was about $2k new.
  • kelnos 2y ago
    > Probably would have been at least $200 from an appliance repair company just for the labor How many hours did you spend taking it apart diagnosing the problem, though? I'm guessing at least 2? $100/hr for that seems pretty reasonable to me. (Granted, I agree with you in that I'd prefer to figure it out and repair it myself, even if it would take me 5x as long as someone trained to do it.)
    • fein 2y ago
      Had I been able to work on it for an entire day, it probably would have been around 3-4 hours, but took longer because I had about 30-45 mins a night and then had to clean up so the kids didn't get into the mess. The oven was down for about a week as a result, but you can make do with an air fryer and a toaster oven for quite a bit. For an experienced tech I assumed at least $50 for the house call and then a few hours for the disassembly and reassembly.
• hunter2_ 2y ago
  > My old tablet’s model name was on a sticker on the inside of the case, but looking at the code I saw it needed the -EZ identifier tagged to end. So the string I was to return was “PIC7KS6-EZ”. The code seems to allow for both "PIC7KS6-EZ" and "PIC7KS6" unless I'm misreading it.
  • ranebo 2y ago
    You are correct this was actually and error in my re-collection. I remembered when writing that it was missing something but mistakenly thought it was the EZ. In fact the model number on the case was "PIC7KS" without the 6. Good spot.
    • hunter2_ 2y ago
      Ah, in that case you were free to add any of {"6", "6-EZ", "-EZ"} because the code includes "PIC7KS-EZ" as well; you probably did choose "-EZ" after all!
• gstar 2y ago
  OMFG; I am in Perth, I have the same system, the very same problem and solved it almost the same way and was in the process of writing it up. The system uses RS422, with a base64 encoded AES key in the aaservice binary, and I was contemplating building an esp32 based open source implementation of the controller. That's a crazy weird coincidence.
  • gstar 2y ago
    Incidentally, if you root your tablet you can just change the build.MODEL to "MyAir5" and everything will work on a third party tablet.
    • gstar 2y ago
      Oh, and you just need one of these and a TTL to RS422 converter off aliexpress to replicate the interface: https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005005918675239.html https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005005918675239.html The connectors on the small RJ45 daughter board are JST-SH 1.0 The yellow lead puts out 4.2v to replicate a Li-Ion battery (as far as I can tell). You can ignore this. Red is positive Black is negative Green is usb d+ Blue is usb d-
      • ranebo 2y ago
        This is all fantastic info. I have included the details and a link to these comments at the bottom of the post. Great work!
        • Nursie 2y ago
          Hey - As the owner of a similar system I have a question for you - do you use their phone app to control your system from your phone in/out of the house, and did it still work after this?
          • ranebo 2y ago
            I use the home assistant plugin with it personally, but I have tried the apps and they still work fine both locally and remote.
• tetrisgm 2y ago
  How good is the on/off switch though?
• nikolayasdf123 2y ago
  wish there was an open-source aircon, and heater, and microwave, and so on,
• deleted 2y ago
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• antisthenes 2y ago
  A nice solution to a completely self-inflicted problem. Next time just get a dumb thermostat, or perhaps, if you're so inclined, something cheap off-the-shelf like an ecobee.
  • dbetteridge 2y ago
    It's funny because if that was an option people would do it, but most installers have their control system included when the install and setup the system. You don't get asked what you want or a choice in changing it to a different device...
  • kelnos 2y ago
    Unfortunately a lot of the new variable-speed heat pumps require a proprietary thermostat. You can use a dumb thermostat with them, but then the unit runs at full tilt all the time, which is inefficient (more costly to run) and probably increases wear on it. Fortunately there are some heat pumps that allow you to use any old thermostat; they figure out the right speed to run at using their own temperature sensors. Regardless, this wasn't really the thermostat: this was a control system that monitors temperatures in each room/zone, and opens and closes the vents to hit the temperature targets in each zone. Pretty sure no dumb (or even generic smart) thermostat can handle that.
    • antisthenes 2y ago
      At that point it's easier to just get mini-splits for every major room in the house.
  • zb 2y ago
    You must be American. In Australia there are exactly zero heat pumps on the market that you can use an ecobee with. It just isn’t an option. There are no off-the-shelf options. You don’t have to pay $1700 for this garbage $50 tablet, but it is the default that every installer will offer you without mentioning any other options (and the only options are the manufacturer’s proprietary controllers). In this case his builder procured it for him without even telling him the price. He may not even have been given a choice. You have to be extremely motivated to stay on top of every decision like this along with the thousands of other decisions involved in building.
• johnobrien1010 2y ago
  My fridge stopped working last year. We called a repair technician, who swapped out the whole PCB and charged us a few hundred dollars. In retrospect, I think it was one bad relay on the board... Next time it dies I plan to try to find the defective relay, desolder and resolder it myself. Imagine how much better it would be if there was a read out with an error code on a fridge with easily removable relays you could unplug and replace. I know it is not a priority to make these kinds of things repairable, but I wish it was.
  • mlhpdx 2y ago
    I wasn’t lucky enough to have a “repairable” refrigerator according to the repair man. An 8 cent capacitor had dried out and failed, which I discovered with a $150 tool.
  • bb88 2y ago
    The contacts in a socket can oxidize and go bad. Or the relay can get jostled out of the socket during a move. It would be cheaper to ship a replacement PCB with the fridge.
  • wincy 2y ago
    I’ve had a fan die TWICE now in my fan. It blows the cold air from the bottom freezer up to the top refrigerated portion, so it’s catastrophic when it happens. At this point I just have a third fan in the garage in a box in reserve so I don’t lose $100+ in groceries. It’s ridiculous how poorly made these “durable goods” are. And how expensive these repairs would have been if I wasn’t the smallest bit handy.
• nerdile 2y ago
  I'm thankful my husband knows I would never allow such a system to be installed in my home.
• cyberax 2y ago
  Ugh. The whole "smart aircon" industry needs a good-sized asteroid wiping them out of the existence. There is a very real need for modern variable-speed units, and vendors just keep fucking it up by using proprietary protocols locked into their ecosystem. TRANE in the US is similar. And this is really annoying because variable-speed pumps solve all the problems with short cycling and oversized systems.
  • datahack 2y ago
    You think this is bad? Try swimming pool equipment.
    • pzlarsson 2y ago
      I think home EV charging equipment is heading in the same direction as well. Very few have local and open APIs and instead depend on the vendors cloud service for control.
      • deleted 2y ago
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      • cyberax 2y ago
        Yeah, but EV chargers are not that complicated. They are just smart contactors, with maaaybe some load management (EVSE can command the vehicle to reduce the charging rate). Worst case, you just buy another one. It'll set you back a couple hundred dollars. Unpleasant, but not a big deal. Air conditioning systems can easily cost more than $10k.
        • emilecantin 2y ago
          > (EVSE can command the vehicle to reduce the charging rate) That's just a PWM signal on one of the pilot pins, it's not even that complex.
      • jagheterfredrik 2y ago
        Agreed, I couldn’t find a reasonable choice and ended up making https://github.com/jagheterfredrik/wallbox-mqtt-bridge https://github.com/jagheterfredrik/wallbox-mqtt-bridge
• metadat 2y ago
  Why do they do the model checks? Is there any semi legitimate reason or is it purely protectionist anti-consumer evil?
• paranoidrobot 2y ago
  I installed AC in my home in the last year. I specifically went for units that were IR controlled rather than any proprietary smart B.S. For the smarts, I used cheap IR blasters from AliExpress and hooked them up to HomeAssistant. I just mounted cheap Lenovo tablets to the wall to do the room-dashboard thing to allow controlling lights/AC without a phone. These kind of horror stories only serve to reinforce my decision.
  • 35mm 2y ago
    How did you pick cheap blasters compatible with HA? I have a Broadcom one which works well but expensive.
    • paranoidrobot 2y ago
      Reddit and Google was how I chose which one to go with. The Broadlinks RM4 minis were pretty cheap on AliExpress. I think I paid about $15 each? Might have to wait for specials to come up to get the lowest price.
  • athrun 2y ago
    I was thinking of doing the same but IR control only allows for unidirectional communication with the unit. Since there's no feedback mechanism, how do you solve for when the state of the unit(s) gets out of sync with HomeAssistant's?
    • klausa 2y ago
      (not OP) It just doesn't matter that much in my experience. If an issued command didn't work, it's easy to tell anyway (it's hot/cold), and you can just repeat it. HomeAssistant also has bits of special handling for items that don't communicate their state back, called "assumed state". For the rare times I want to control my AC when being away from home, I have an air monitor nearby. I can just check if the temperature/humidity has changed, and repeat the command if it didn't work. If you _really_ cared you probably could script it to do it automagically, but I didn't feel the need to bother.
• stonethrowaway 2y ago
  Ranebo, post step by step instructions and full source code. Post full photos of circuit board and interconnects. Go fucking wild. I’m contemplating writing an end-to-end manual for a set of laser machines I maintain, including missing schematics, gerber/eagle/fusion files and binaries for the MCU, how to flash it etc. Some parts which are required for servicing are only handed to manufacturer-employed technicians (I obtained those too from retired people). It’s been a riot to get everything and to learn how to disassemble, troubleshoot, fix, reassemble these machines. But am I ever pissed at the manufacturer and the aftermarket for screwing people over. The markups on simple items are insane and they remove tags and IDs so you don’t know what the parts are. At this point I don’t care what’s proprietary information and what isn’t.
• byb 2y ago
  great read. I have several Daikin split units and installed Faikins on them. https://github.com/revk/ESP32-Faikin https://github.com/revk/ESP32-Faikin Having the PCBs made, flashing them, sourcing the connectors,and installing them was a bit involved, but setting them up in home assistant was one of the best things this nerd has ever done. I wish there was an over-arching collective of hackers who would teach the principles, and help collaborate to decipher these protocols and help build software and microcontrollers to replace proprietary systems like the one Advantage Air has. I bet a simple ESP32 could handle this.
  • robk 2y ago
    At least in the UK some enterprising soul has faikins on Amazon selling quite well. I got a couple just to stash if ever needed but for now daikins app is okay and works w home assistant. For now.
    • cr3ative 2y ago
      The seller is revk (AJK) who came up with the Faikin - it's his github :)
• Sarkie 2y ago
  OP, ". I could make the i.c() (isEzone()) function always return true" Please do this via a script on GitHub Then it'll make it easier for other people to use on other tablets
• renewiltord 2y ago
  This is brilliant. Great write-up. I'm glad it's already on archive.org since this is nice and detailed. Much appreciated, man. I learned so much here: 1. PoE to USB 2. Smali debugging Funnily, I thought it was serial over CAT5 because we have a couple of old network switches that are configured like that.
• dvratil 2y ago
  We installed Daikin AC in our house two years ago. Luckily, those units can be controlled locally (no cloud) via Daikin app (which says is unsupported and I should update to another app, but that one requires creating an account so screw that) and, more importantly, via HomeAssistant. What makes me really sad is that of all the "smart home" appliances we have, the AC is the only one doesn't go through cloud.
  • mianos 2y ago
    In case you want to connect it to HA, Tasmota IR supports my Daikin via an esp32 IR sender really well.
• ctippett 2y ago
  Great write up. Australia has pretty good consumer protection laws.. I feel like the warranty period offered by the manufacturer could/should be superseded by the Consumers Guarantee Act – it seems reasonable to expect an AC unit to operate and work for more than a few years. There is no specific time when the consumer guarantees no longer apply to products. They may apply even after the manufacturer's warranty period has past. https://business.gov.au/legal/fair-trading/australian-consumer-law https://business.gov.au/legal/fair-trading/australian-consum...
  • Hawxy 2y ago
    Came to the thread to mention this. I imagine the control system attached to an A/C system expected to last 10+ years should also last as long under the ACCC.
  • chid 2y ago
    I just had look and seems most have a warranty of five years, it doesn't seem there are many outliers to that. Funnily though it seems the AC unit is most likely going to operate many times longer, as the OP points out just the controller isn't working properly, and how long would a consumer be willing to fight this in the summer in Perth.
    • jackvalentine 2y ago
      I’ve used the Australian Consumer Law several times at this point and most times you say to the customer service rep “The Australian Consumer Law gives guarantees of acceptable durability that I do not think this product has met. How are you planning on remedying the situation?” They’ll then generally go to speak to a supervisor. The’ll then come back and say they’ve been instructed to help you escalate to ‘senior management’. A day later they’ll contact you with how to get your product fixed for free. I’ve not had a significant delay, but you’d be spewing if it was a heat wave in summer.
  • ajdlinux 2y ago
    That was my first thought - the Australian Consumer Law statutory guarantees would almost certainly come into play here, and this would be worth requesting assistance from the relevant state/territory Fair Trading.
• 1116574 2y ago
  When I read "Advantage Air" I needed to check if I am reading sequel to Cory Doctrow's "unauthorised bread" because of how dystopian it sounded
• xg15 2y ago
  > Adding a simple “system” chooser to their software applications would give solutions to everyone, while the custom POE connector would ensure they still need their hardware. Defense in depth, baby! (against customers) Why have one proprietary component when you can have two...
• BrandoElFollito 2y ago
  On a much, much smaller scale - this is why I insisted on having my roller covers driven by a physical button on the wall, instead of some proprietary radio. Not only the remote would never be where it belongs, but I just had to plug in a shelly to have a full automation connected to my home assistant. The vendors really wanted me to go for their solution until I met a guy who said sure, this is what he did too. One of the shellies failed right after two years (warranty time in the EU) and fixing costed 20€ + 1 day. In the meantime my automation was replaced with my finger.
  • MaXtreeM 2y ago
    I followed the same logic when deciding what kind of blinds control to choose building my house few weeks ago. Now I am in the planning of adding automation to it. Did you use Shelly Plus 2PM or are there any cheaper options to choose from (they seem to start at 30€ in my country shops)? Did they fit nicely in the wall switch socket?
    • BrandoElFollito 2y ago
      I initially got the Shelly 2.5, now discontinued. The one that failed was changed to a 2 PM which is 31€ on Amazon in France (you could probably get better deals (I just checked with Amazon Germany and they are at 25€). I mounted them right next to the roller (in the roller enclosure) and if I did not have that possibility, I would have done it close to the ground to have good access. I do not have a socket per see, rather a small switch on the wall not inside the wall, this is not permitted where I am) I had a look at cheaper solutions in the past but gave up - I do not have a lot of rollers so the cost difference is likely to be minimal. I like the fact that they work well and it is really a kind of mount-and-forget kind of setup.
• jamesbfb 2y ago
  Amazing! I love everything about this. However, also being in Australia, I would have tried my luck with Consumer Affairs. Our new house was equipped with a gas boosted solar hot was service. The gas booster died a year out of warranty and instead of replacing just their proprietary booster unit, they said the whole system would need to be replaced at a cost to me of $10'000+. A few weeks of back and forth (and limited hot water) with consumer affairs made enough noise and the company caved and replaced the booster unit for free. Yes, it was out of warranty, but it's abhorrent that anyone should have to purchase a whole new anything when a small portion of it can be replaced independently.
• LAC-Tech 2y ago
  I'm struggling to understand why someone who knows software would think things in your house relying on android was a good idea. Just get up and use a remote control people. It's not that hard. You really don't need an app to do it remotely. Your life will be fine.
  • exhilaration 2y ago
    He was using the remote control provided by the manufacturer - it just happened to be an Android device.
• shahzaibmushtaq 2y ago
  So, this is the part where customer care stuffs say to each other "It's not a bug, but a feature" and who knows how many people get trapped in their story like they had found an old tablet in the back of a van that could be bought for $400. DIY is the way to go, only if you know what you are doing.
• urbandw311er 2y ago
  Great story and write-up! I’m currently going through something similar myself: I bought a Meaco air con unit that uses its own proprietary app to control it over wifi, and there seems to be nothing anywhere online about that protocol or how I might integrate it with Home assistant. Model is MC Series Pro 8000 in case anybody ever cracks the case…
• msnkarthik 2y ago
  It's really impressive to see how determination and a bit of technical know-how can overcome such blatant profiteering by some companies. The effort and ingenuity put into fixing the system rather than just paying for an overpriced replacement are commendable. It's a clear reminder that proprietary smart systems can sometimes backfire, pushing customers to seek alternative solutions or even become DIY experts out of necessity! Like some of the commenters, I've been thinking about the growing frustration with these kinds of business practices. It really makes you wonder about the balance between smart technology's convenience and the long-term costs they can impose. What do you think would be the most effective way to encourage companies to offer more consumer-friendly solutions, especially for minor issues like this? Should there be stronger regulations, or is there a market opportunity for more open-source, user-modifiable systems?
• dandare 2y ago
  People underestimate the economic side. This person probably earns 6 figures (if not, he should). Fixing this himself probably costed more than $1697 in his time. Now imagine a service doing this, with a manager and all the overhead.
  • phonon 2y ago
    You only need to solve this once though?
• ale42 2y ago
  Is this tablet doing anything else beside the small user interface? Is that interface worth a tablet, or can it be done with 3 push buttons, a small LCD and a microcontroller?
  • keshet 2y ago
    By using an android tablet they leverage the existing OS/UI/Java ecosystem to write a (fairly simple) app. Recreating that from scratch would require a lot more development.
    • ale42 2y ago
      Sure, it saves development time & money. But if they anyway need some kind of custom interface... problem is, the lifetime of the tablet is way lower than a corresponding "dumb" system. I'd see the advantage of using a tablet if you have lots of controls (let's say you control the temperature for 6 rooms, you can see more info, etc.). By the way not everybody wants to have yet another touch screen in their home, but that's another story.
• hellweaver666 2y ago
  I had a similar situation with my shutter blinds. The company wanted €500 to install a "smart hub" to enable voice control instead of their little remote. To hell with that, I ordered a couple of servos and an esp8266 and 3d printed some little fingers that would press the buttons on the remote and added the whole thing to HomeAssistant via ESPHome. Cost me less than €30.
  • cuu508 2y ago
    I disassembled one of our gate opener's remotes, and hooked the button contacts to Raspberry Pi Zero's GPIO pins. Pi runs a tiny go webserver and Cloudflare tunnel. I hit an obscure HTTPS URL (via button on a phone's homescreen), gate opens.
    • csunbird 2y ago
      I remember someone posting something about their garage opening whenever they open safari, as Safari replays GET requests from open tabs when it is un-suspended, although can't find the post right now. Basically, they had your setup exactly, but they leave the tab open in Safari and whenever they open Safari to browse the internet, the garage door opens.
      • cuu508 2y ago
        I didn't dare to hook up Pi with garage opener as well. Our gate auto-closes after a configurable delay, but garage does not. If I trigger the garage opener by accident while I'm not at home, the garage stays open for anybody to come in and take stuff. So I'd need some sort of "is garage currently open" sensor, but I want to keep things simple.
      • mnw21cam 2y ago
        And that's what POST requests are for.
  • cr3ative 2y ago
    It's really pleasing to me how the "analogue loophole" continues to work. Previously, recording music through the Line Out, or what have you. Now, using a robot to press the supplied remote. It's delightful.
• snickmy 2y ago
  This post well summarises everything that is wrong with the current domotic / home automation space. You either waste a tons of money on consumer grade product, and spend even more when they break, or you become a domain expert, hacking your way through it and running HomeAssistant (or similar)
• ozfive 2y ago
  There are so many companies that I am sure countless individuals have come along and have solved a problem for themselves that many other customers probably have. These solutions hardly ever surface. I for one was upset when I bought a HiFi amp from Cambridge Audio (CXA-81) and it came with an IR controller. The only way to be able to control that amp through the app is by means of a DAC which costs another couple of thousand dollars. I refused to accept this as my solution. I wrote a web server that used a Raspberry Pi Zero W and an IR transmitter along with a rudimentary Android app that had a series of buttons which corresponded to the functionalities I needed. If anyone is interested the web server (written in Go) that the Android app talks to is located here https://github.com/ozfive/CXA81-IR-Remote-Server https://github.com/ozfive/CXA81-IR-Remote-Server I will upload the the Android app source in the next week.
• mdavid626 2y ago
  Outrageous.
• kokey 2y ago
  When our Fujitsu aircon was installed the installer said it's worth a lot of money to be able to make it wifi controllable. When I looked into what the components cost to make it do that, I saw what he meant. Fortunately I was able to use an ESP32 on the same bus as the wired remote and some code from https://github.com/FujiHeatPump/esphome-fujitsu https://github.com/FujiHeatPump/esphome-fujitsu to create my own remote interface. As a bonus it also told me what temperature the unit thought my room was at, which was always around two degrees more than reality, which allowed me to set a target temperature that worked more reliably.
• lloydatkinson 2y ago
  Android based AC control? What do you expect...
• atoav 2y ago
  Maybe it is time to establish a curated online blacklist of companies who engage in malpractise like this one.
  • downut 2y ago
    Over time a blacklist is potentially unbounded. Better a whitelist, I think.
• squarefoot 2y ago
  I had AC installed in my new house just after putting solar a few months ago, and I was very clear that I wouldn't use anything that would depend on any external services: no apps, no connections, nothing: if I want to monitor the inverter I have to go up there to read its screen (1), and AC have to be all usable with IR remotes. (1) I'm working on monitoring the inverter (Deye) thru a RS485 interface using a small SBC that connects to the IoT restricted VLAN. Will report here as soon as it's ready but will require time. I wonder if the same could be achieved with the AC units (Hisense). One could learn remote signals and send them say from a ESP* board through WiFi, but there would be no feedback from the AC units.
• meindnoch 2y ago
  Nice job! Fuck companies with "smart" appliances.
• pierrefermat1 2y ago
  It seems like in this particular situation if you had a mainland chinese friend, he would have been able to source a replacement tablet panel for the cheap on 1688.com for ~50 USD.
• atemerev 2y ago
  Yes, this amount of work costs about $1697. Perhaps more, with corporate overhead included. This is why they suggest replacement parts.
• tjscott 2y ago
  Given this is in Australia, I’d have thought that a threat to enforce your rights under the Australian Consumer Law[1] would get some action from the manufacturer. Essentially, there’s a statutory warranty that exists regardless of any warranty term quoted by the manufacturer, and the manufacturer is on the hook if the product is not fit for purpose or sufficiently “durable”. [1] https://www.accc.gov.au/consumers/buying-products-and-services/consumer-rights-and-guarantees https://www.accc.gov.au/consumers/buying-products-and-servic...
• taneq 2y ago
  This kind of perverse incentive driven behaviour is rife in large established businesses. At every stage you get asked “Do you want to spend money and effort solving this problem for the customer, at the cost of substantial revenue, or do you do nothing except shrug and make an excuse, and watch the money roll in?” If you aren’t deeply invested in the long term quality of the company there’s not a lot of personal incentive to do get former.
• Marciakhan 2y ago
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• titzer 2y ago
  The future is looking like an incredibly huge pile of crappy cloud software that no one asked for, no one understands, perpetually stops working, and no one can fix except by replacing it by an even crappier, faster breaking piece of junk.
• datavirtue 2y ago
  Pure anarchy.
• sandworm101 2y ago
  >> This control system is operated by a cheap POE powered Android tablet on the wall of the living room. >> actively monitor temperature and adjust vent opening angles and fan speed to achieve desired temperatures across multiple zones. Who actually wants this junk? Air conditioning is a simple series of bang-bang controllers. A handful of relays turn things on and off as needed. There is no need for "vent opening angles". Vents are open or closed, pumps on or off. The thermal mass of the structure keeps everything within a narrow band as systems cycle. And then the oxymoron buzzwords like "actively monitor". No. Unless it has a little arm to spin a wet bulb, it passively reads the temperatures and sends and over/under signals as needed, something that for decades was done with a blob of mercury on a spring. The moment this system even hiccupped, I would gut it and replace with basic 4-wire thermostats in each zone.
• iandanforth 2y ago
  "I'm all for smart things ..." Root cause found. Cannot fix, pebkac.
• btbuildem 2y ago
  Great write up, and good on you for pushing through to make this work. It's definitely predatory practice by the vendor. I wonder how much it would cost to pay someone with your skillset to do this hack -- probably comparable to what they wanted you to pay, if not more? This almost merits an angry on-site visit, sheesh.
• madduci 2y ago
  Thanks for sharing. This demonstrates where the new tech products are bringing us: to scrape everything and buy the entire thing again. This is the direction of the automotive industry as well, so in the future you won't be able to repair a car easily too.
• totallymike 2y ago
  Ridiculous and arbitrary points of failure is a gigantic pet peeve of mine. See every charger unit that has the cable hardwired to it. For any one thing, it feels like not a huge deal. Oh well, a thing is broken and needs replacement. But at scale, it feels like this is how everything ends up dying, lately. For example, our LG microwave, oven, and dishwasher all started to fail around the same time simply because the awful membrane buttons collapse or just stop working. You'd expect to start considering appliance replacement when the actual parts that do the _work_ can't function anymore, not because you simply can't turn it on anymore. I would love to not send three heavy appliances to the landfill just because of a few buttons that don't work anymore, but I have more money than time. What's more, how long will it be until (made up hyperbole incoming), say, the input button on a TV also fails, and then you can only use HDMI 2 until that port wears out from swapping things into it, or, <insert basically any other thing you could possibly own that can be rendered useless simply because the power button stops turning it on>. It becomes infuriating to think of all the waste that's generated from these little stupid things.
• rpcope1 2y ago
  Why does an air conditioning system need an Android tablet? Why do people buy this sort of shit?
  • jdc0589 2y ago
    To start, aircon is an incredible racket in general a lot of the time. Good companies exist, but lots of others, especially in the USA, have been bought up by big holding companies and converted in to profit maximization new-system sales machines. Techs get paid pretty poorly, and helpers get paid worse than mcdonalds/target in a lot of areas. There's not much financial incentive for someone to get really good at understanding residential a/c systems for repair/diagnosis anymore in most places. Then to your tablet question: even on simple non-zoned systems, lots of manufacturers have totally moved away from oldschool thermostats that have simple fan/compressor/power/etc.. wires, in favor of "communicating" systems. "Communicating" means there's a proprietary protocol that their thermostats, control boards, and other misc electronics in compressor/condenser assemblies speak; for which there is no standard. A handful of modern advancements kind of necessitate this, such as variable speed compressors (yea, you could totally control that with normal electrical hardware, but....no one cares). Couple all that with people willing to pay damn near anything to cool off when its 97f outside, and you end up where we are today.
    • rpcope1 2y ago
      This is why I chose to replace my basic forced air gas furnace and basic 16 seer single speed single stage A/C unit with the same thing. Every part on these is relatively simple, largely serviceable and every parts house coming and going will have something that fits. I disagree with others that any of the more fancy stuff is any more reliable (and Dad worked as an HVAC master tech for a long time and also agrees with this) and I can't believe people pay for more complicated stuff when so far as I have ever seen it's 90%+ snake oil and drives the initial price and the cost of repairs up astronomically, and largely cools or heats the house all the same. I am well aware that Bryant, Lennox, Trane, Mitsubishi and everyone else coming and going has got the more complicated garbage that talks something more complicated, I just really don't get why you'd double or more the cost of things when you can get something that just works for less. I also don't understand the obsession with "smart" controls on any residential single family home when a basic programmable thermostat already does basically everything. I'm sure as everyone piles onto the mini-split hype train, there's going to be even more fleecing of homeowners for maybe middling quality hardware and installs. Someone (either the HVAC company owners or the hardware manufacturers or maybe both) is making an absolute killing on this; maybe it's time for a career change.
• stuff4ben 2y ago
  This puts the Hacker back in Hacker News! Love sticking it to the corporate man!!
• bob1029 2y ago
  I had a look at the furnace blower fan motor in my 2023 construction home. It has some very cheap looking digital controller system with a ridiculous amount of complexity around it. There are 2 separate computers involved somehow. Just for spinning the blower. I was operating under the impression that an induction motor could be powered directly from the AC mains. The complexity is certainly not adding to any sort of comfort, etc. The overall system is unbelievably noisy. This is all so clearly engineered to require as much maintenance as possible on purpose. It would take me months of figuring to determine how to take 2 wires and turn them into 40. The easy part is throwing it into the plenum in such a way that the wires hang within millimeters of the rotating assembly.
• justmarc 2y ago
  Congratulations! this is a great fix. I've had countless of times where simple/cheap part replacements have negated the need of a very expensive fix, or a complete replacement of a device, it's very satisfying. I can vividly remember one case, almost two decades ago where a 10 cent o-ring (hardware shop price) has saved an old but otherwise fully functional Ice cube maker and has stopped me from having to buy a new one, or invest relatively too much in a workshop retrofitting it with a replacement to an old, no longer produced valve, at least according to said workshop. To top it off, it has been working perfectly ever since. I wish there were more organized resources, as well as help forums for DIY repairs/retrofits for household appliances and other common devices. Way too much stuff gets thrown away because of simple part failures and that's just no good.
• seemaze 2y ago
  I have a Carrier Infinity heat pump, and have been running https://github.com/acd/infinitive https://github.com/acd/infinitive on a raspberry pi zero flawlessly for years. Cost less than $10 and with Alpine Linux running from ram, it still has the original SD card.
• lyime 2y ago
  What a great read
• Zopieux 2y ago
  This is what the internet is for. Thanks, and fuck that company and the entire industry for that matters.
• allenrb 2y ago
  I’ve just got to say that this kind of thing enraged me. Who cares about the impact on people hit with sudden expenses? Or the environment when we dispose of e-waste? No, we want to goose profits by being despicable. As I creep closer to retirement, I look forward to spending some of that time contributing to the fight against abusive bullshit like this.
• yftsui 2y ago
  slight off topic: I have quite a few low end Android phone bought between 2013-2017, only 1 of them is still bootable, all others cannot pass recovery like author’s tablet. Is it something related with older Android versions or just the cheap flash they used in if?
• wanyar 2y ago
  I really love this article! But I'm also confused about the fourth paragraph of "ok I'll fix it myself". Why does cutting datalines worked? My intuition is you need to cut the USB 5v lines and keep the datalines so data can be transferred without interference. I'm totally a noob about datalines and chips so could you please provide a further explanation thank you so much;)
• spintin 2y ago
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• irfan786 2y ago
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