9 ms·

Epic Games to pay $245M for tricking users into making unwanted charges

520 points by brarsanmol 4y ago

Red_Leaves_Flyy 4y ago
>Under the FTC’s order, Epic must pay $245 million, which will be used to provide refunds to consumers. The order also prohibits Epic from charging consumers through the use of dark patterns or from otherwise charging consumers without obtaining their affirmative consent. Additionally, the order bars Epic from blocking consumers from accessing their accounts for disputing unauthorized charges. Too bad there aren’t punitive damages. Hopefully this action by the FTC chills other businesses that use dark patterns or ban users for charge backs. Not offering competent customer service is a liability not a cost savings.
cornstalks 4y ago
> Additionally, the order bars Epic from blocking consumers from accessing their accounts for disputing unauthorized charges. I really wish more companies were required to still allow account access after disputing a credit card charge.
- rootusrootus 4y ago
  I'd like something that broadly prohibited any company that 1) acts as a gatekeeper for any third party services, or 2) offers digital "purchases" from blocking user access to their account without having to first prove overt nefarious actions that disrupt the service. And not some hand-wavy TOS violation, but it should be impossible to block someone more than temporarily without going through some kind of arbitration process. If a company doesn't want to deal with this hassle, don't offer up "Sign in with Google/Apple/Facebook/whatever" (I'm talking about Google/Apple/FB/whatever in this scenario), and don't "sell" digital goods that are hosted online.
  - vorpalhex 4y ago
    Yeah, I would like to see where you at least maintain access to your existing (previous) purchases in the case of a dispute. I can understand cutting off a bad actor from making more purchases, but reclaiming their already paid for stuff feels pretty evil.
    - ChickenNugger 4y ago
      That's because it is evil. Specifically, greed.
- altairprime 4y ago
  The FTC’s order can be reasonably interpreted as a warning shot to other US companies, but I’d still like to see “chargebacks may only reverse access to that which the purchase paid for, not to the right to access past and future purchases” enshrined in law.
thyselius 4y ago
Does anyone here know exactly what these patterns are?
- haunter 4y ago
  I play Fortnite so I can answer. Basically purchase in Fortnite was instant. You clicked/touched on the button > you bought it instantly. There were no confirmation screens, no "are you sure" etc nothing. One click purchase. And cancellation was very limited, basically non existent. Credit cards were also saved instantly so no further interaction needed for later purchases, so some kids ended up spending a lot without their parents knowledge at all. There are more examples here about the patterns https://www.ftc.gov/business-guidance/blog/2022/12/245-million-ftc-settlement-alleges-fortnite-owner-epic-games-used-digital-dark-patterns-charge https://www.ftc.gov/business-guidance/blog/2022/12/245-milli... They already changed the system like half a year ago, guess they knew about the penalty back then https://www.fortnite.com/news/updates-to-fortnite-purchase-cancellation-and-social-settings https://www.fortnite.com/news/updates-to-fortnite-purchase-c... Now for every purchase you have to hold the buy button for several seconds. You can't click/touch accidentally. Plus there is a proper refund system now.
  - berkle4455 4y ago
    This is in sharp contrast to Roblox where a purchase attempt pops up a confirmation screen, a clear explanation of what you’re purchasing, what the cost is, and what your balance will be post-purchase. And then it makes you wait a few seconds before it enables the “purchase” button itself.
  - hinkley 4y ago
    I don’t like how sometimes in streaming services clicking on a movie shows the details, while in other places it starts the movie. Now it’s on my keep watching list which gets awkward on family accounts. But at least they don’t auto play movies that you have to pay for. Which it sounds like is what’s happening here.
  - thunky 4y ago
    Not disagreeing, but just a note that it is possible to play Fortnite without spending a single cent or giving out a credit card. It's not a pay to play game, so you're not limiting yourself by keeping your money. You just miss out on skins & emotes. So this line from the linked ftc post is incorrect: "Epic charges for in-game purchases designed to enhance game play" Money does not enhance game play. Epic also hands out in-game currency every so often, so you can even collect skins for free after some time. That said, kids gotta have the new skins.
bluetidepro 4y ago
> Additionally, the order bars Epic from blocking consumers from accessing their accounts for disputing unauthorized charges. This could be bigger than people realize. This is very common in many tech companies like Uber/Doordash/Sony/etc. where if you do a chargeback, you often get blacklisted on their service. It would be amazing if this starts to end this practice, and you can actually have authority to get your money back from your credit card and not be penalized by the service for it when they refuse to actually help.
- ceejayoz 4y ago
  I'd love to see this formalized as a rule/right. I essentially can't file a chargeback against Amazon or Steam, ever, because of the likely repercussions to the rest of my libraries there.
  - vuln 4y ago
    > my libraries You may have curated but you do not own your library. You purchased _access_ to said library.
    - ceejayoz 4y ago
      My understanding of that semantic distinction (one virtually everyone on HN holds, I'd wager) is quite clear from context, I think, or I wouldn't be worried about the scenario.
    - MagicMoonlight 4y ago
      “You purchased access to your house, you do not own it. Move along citizen.”
      - gnaritas99 4y ago
        [dead]
- hn_throwaway_99 4y ago
  This order doesn't broadly apply beyond Epic. It seems to me that they're blocking Epic from locking accounts specifically because of the dark patterns they used to get users to accidentally spend money. I doubt this would be applied to other companies unless they also found those companies used confusing UIs to get people to pay. Which is still good news nonetheless, as the main issue for me is all these dark patterns in the first place.
PurpleRamen 4y ago
That's the second time now I read about Epic Games paying a fine for doing something obviously shady and illegal. I slowly get the impression that Epic Games might be a bit more scammy than your average company.
- pseudostem 4y ago
  What you said, and what I'm retorting with requires data, lots of it. But my understanding is that given unchecked power in a domain, almost all of them do the same.
  - mostlysimilar 4y ago
    Yeah, I appreciate Valve more and more. Epic has the gall to present themselves as underdogs fighting for consumers against Valve, Apple, etc. Meanwhile Valve quietly hums along making gaming better for everyone.
- bena 4y ago
  Yeah, it makes their kerfuffle with Apple look a bit different. Because Apple charges 30%. And Apple can keep that if there is a refund. In this case, Epic is returning money. They would ideally be net zero on this whole debacle. You mistakenly bought $10 worth of skins, Epic collected that $10. Then you get refunded $10, Epic returns that $10. In the App Store scenario. You mistakenly bought $10 worth of skins, Apple collected that $10, gave $7 to Epic. Then you get refunded $10, Apple returns that $10, and then collects that $10 from Epic. Epic loses $3 on the exchange. And if this is just refunding the purchases, it's kind of a good deal for Epic. As they essentially got an interest free loan from their customers.
  - RussianCow 4y ago
    > And if this is just refunding the purchases, it's kind of a good deal for Epic. As they essentially got an interest free loan from their customers. Just a minor note: I believe credit card transaction fees are not refunded to the vendor, so there is still a non-zero cost to refunding customers which likely doesn't make it a "good deal". (Disclaimer: It's been over a decade since I did anything related to payments, so this may be out of date, or I may be misremembering it.)
degenerate 4y ago
> In Spring 2018, Epic executives and managers discussed adding a confirm purchase button to prevent accidental purchases. Though employees were concerned that “it is a bit of a dark UX pattern to not have confirmation on ‘destructive’ actions,” Epic feared that adding a confirmation button would add “friction,” “result in a decent number of people second guessing their purchase,” and reduce the number of “impulse purchases.” > Epic has never allowed users to cancel or undo charges for Battle Passes or Llamas and did not begin allowing users to cancel Cosmetics charges until June 2019. Even then, Epic uses design tricks, sometimes referred to as “dark patterns,” to deter consumers from cancelling or requesting refunds for unauthorized V-Bucks charges. > On July 20, 2018, an Epic Community Coordinator asked if there were any plans to add a confirmation step for in-game purchases, noting: “This is actually a huge complaints on our side and could remove most of the ‘excuses’ about accidental purchase: ‘I wanted to press Replay, my PS4 was in sleep mode’, etc. This is something I wanted to push forward but didn’t have time to build a real case around, has this already been discussed in the past?” > In addition, Epic deliberately requires consumers to find and navigate a difficult and lengthy path to request a refund through the Fortnite app. To start, Epic hid the link to submit a refund request under the “Settings” tab on the Fortnite app menu, far removed from the purchase screen, even though requesting a refund is not a game or device setting. The Epic user experience (“UX”) designer who helped design the refund request path reported that he put the link there in an “attempt to obfuscate the existence of the feature” and that “not a single player found this option in the most recent round of UX testing.” When the designer asked whether he should make the feature easier to find, he was told by a superior, “it is perfect where it is at.” Many more examples in this complaint doc: https://www.ftc.gov/system/files/ftc_gov/pdf/1923203EpicGamesComplaint.pdf https://www.ftc.gov/system/files/ftc_gov/pdf/1923203EpicGame...
- BiteCode_dev 4y ago
  And despite Epic having great games, this is why I have not installed it or paid for any of their product so far. Also why steam is still the leader despite having a terrible UI: they have been very good to their customers.
  - capableweb 4y ago
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
asciii 4y ago
> the FTC said that Epic deployed a variety of design tricks known as dark patterns aimed at getting consumers of all ages to make unintended in-game purchases. Isn't it funny how they $h!t on Apple/Google gate keeping practices? Is this a part of Project Liberty to bypass stores and scam users?
- munk-a 4y ago
  To be honest though - there are no good guys here. They're all awful. Google and Apple take insane cuts out of any money moving on their platform and while Epic uses predatory tactics to trap people into subscriptions Apple and Google do the same.
  - pwinnski 4y ago
    Apple makes it incredibly easy to manage and cancel subscriptions. Would that all companies matched them! One reason I don't begrudge them their 30% is that I could easily lose that much or more trying to get some vendors to cancel subscriptions if I didn't have the easy options Apple provides. Epic is clearly one of them.
    - j_maffe 4y ago
      You have the (only) only options Apple provides because they maintain a monopoly
      - pwinnski 4y ago
        What does that have to do with anything I said? Or is it just a reflex anytime anyone mentions Apple?
        evandale 4y ago
        There's no system to compare against the supposed "easy" system Apple provides because it's impossible to manage your subscriptions outside of that. If there was some other system out there that was easier to manage subscriptions in and only takes 10% it wouldn't matter because Apple wouldn't allow you to use it.
SimonPStevens 4y ago
Quite frankly in-game purchases has destroyed an entire industry for me. Mobile games are so filled with this junk I don't even bother looking at them any more. I avoid anything on PC that has a store, repeating season passes or virtual currency of any kind. It's even coloured my view of the types of add-on DLC that 20 years ago would have been a legitimate expansion pack, purely because it feels too similar to the dark patterns used in stores. I refuse to give money to the companies that push these financial cons on people.
- hinkley 4y ago
  There’s a bit of a sweet spot with replayability and DLCs. I have a hard time finishing games. When they add new chapters to the game they’ve moved the goal posts as it were, and that doesn’t feel good. If they introduce some new side quests and a new race, I’ve still finished the game (or let’s be honest, got 90% of the way). But if I want to play Skyrim again as a telekinetic khajiit then I might pay for DLC.
  - nottorp 4y ago
    > But if I want to play Skyrim again as a telekinetic khajiit then I might pay for DLC. You must be new to Bethesda games. You buy the "game of the year edition" with all DLC included when it's on 70% discount. You don't buy at launch :)
    - account42 4y ago
      Unfortunately, that doesn't apply to just Bethesda but to most games these days. Even some indies are starting to do the whole micro-DLC nickle and diming.
      - nottorp 4y ago
        Well I ignore most AAAs. Except Soulsbornes. And those tend to have 1-2 large DLCs worth paying for. They didn't get the memo and still do expansions not DLCs :)
  - 4y ago
DueDilligence 4y ago
[dead]
wantsanagent 4y ago
"After receiving five comments, the Commission voted 4-0 to approve the complaint and order against Epic and the responses to the commenters." What? Were these just five people who happened to be in the room? How do you receive only 5 comments?
- hinkley 4y ago
  I worked a contract for a state appeals court way back in the day. I believe anything the judge considers is recorded as part of the case, so “comment” is more official than just raising your hand. Either you’ve filed a document or taken the witness stand. Either way lawyers are involved so that’s a lot of friction.
blitzar 4y ago
Duplicate / part of - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35168285 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35168285 - Americans lost a record $10.3B to online scammers last year, FBI says
yalogin 4y ago
Who gets this penalty? The FTC? Why do these penalties always end up as a fine for the company? They should also be forced to simply go and refund the amount they overcharged at least and preferably add a multiple too.
- verall 4y ago
  >Under the FTC’s order, Epic must pay $245 million, which will be used to provide refunds to consumers.
  - last_responder 4y ago
    I will anxiously await my check for $0.25
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- pwinnski 4y ago
  Mostly lawyers.
tagyro 4y ago
My comment is going to get downvoted (or worse, ignored), but here I go again: We, as software engineers (or working in the field), have the power to not implement these features when our employer asks us to do it. Everyday we read about organisations using dark patterns in their (software) products and then we come to HN to complain about it. How did these features get built? By whom? Yes, I realise not everyone has the privilege to say "NO", but at least some of us can and should push back.
- rootusrootus 4y ago
  I think a lot of us do push back on the product owners and designers when something seems obviously bad. But I don't think it's good advice to encourage people to unilaterally declare themselves the gatekeeper just because they write the code.
  - YeahNO 4y ago
    Articulating why a certain function is bad design or is actively harmful is not the same as gatekeeping. I have lost opportunities because I chose to follow my ethics over my bank account. I do not regret those decisions. Software developers should have a professional code of ethics. Other professions have them, why not computer scientists, computer engineers, and software developers? There is the ACM/IEEE-CS Software Engineering Code, but I don't know any professionals outside academia that remain ACM members, IEEE membership might remain relevant for computer engineers, so I may well be wrong in that regard.
    - tagyro 4y ago
      When I studied (industrial) engineering, we had a creed and naïve me still believes in that. https://order-of-the-engineer.org/about-the-order/obligation/ https://order-of-the-engineer.org/about-the-order/obligation...
      - intelVISA 4y ago
        We're young as a profession, once ML automates away a lot of the low hanging fruit I'd imagine we'll go a similar path.
angryjim 4y ago
I've had repeated issues using Fortnite gift cards, some I bought myself. Zero help from Epic. I bet others have as well.
awill 4y ago
Epic love to complain about Valve, but consumers all love Valve. Epic? Not so much.
- justin66 4y ago
  > consumers all love Valve Where do people get ideas like this?
- Loughla 4y ago
  I deal with Valve, because I have to. There is not a good way to get video games that doesn't involve pirating, unless you use a platform like Steam. The fact that I do not really own the games is a huge pain in my ass, but I love video games, and want to spend my actual money on them, so I'm kind of stuck.
  - joveian 4y ago
    You don't have to use Steam, there is at least GOG which is much better in a number of ways. Refunds not tied to playtime but available for 30 days and most games (almost all currently but they have said they will start to sell DRMed online-focused games) work fully offline with no activation. They have a bunch of quality games and you can support developers who don't insist on using abusive practices. There are still some issues with obnoxious DLC practices but overall it much better. Some specific games may only be available on Steam but in general it is not at all necessary to use it. Unfortunately, besides GOG there are only a few other tiny DRM-free stores. Itch isn't that tiny but isn't super practical as a main game store (lots of junk, hard to find the quality stuff) and also isn't fully DRM-free, doesn't obviously label games the do have DRM, and each developer can decide to issue refunds or not so you can't rely on anything. The more money people spend on DRM-free games the more options there will be.
jamesy0ung 4y ago
I've honestly never understood the point of buying skins. Admittedly I guess game monetization is difficult, I'm not going to pay to get nothing, and I'm not going to play pay to win games either. Most games I play are paid upfront.
19h 4y ago
Pretty sure if Tencent wasn’t involved the FTC wouldn’t be this invested into making Epic bleed ..
Arch-TK 4y ago
Only 245M? Should have gone for 2.45B. That would have hopefully made Epic reconsider its trashy existence on this planet.
jsmeaton 4y ago
Hah. A few years ago my young child (6) racked up an $800 bill on consmetics playing on the Wii. It was my fault - I didn’t require a password to make purchases and he spammed the buy button. To his credit he came straight to me and told me he got all of the items “for free”. After a huge muck around I finally got a refund (dealing with a combination of Nintendo and Epic) but the outcome was that I could no longer use a credit card to make purchase on my account ever again. They’ve known for a long long time that accidental purchases happen and avoided having a decent path to refund (up until somewhat recently according to TFA) so I’m glad they’re being slapped with regulations.
everly 4y ago
This type of thing definitely makes me less sympathetic to their complaints about Apple's anti-consumer practices (regardless of the validity of those complaints)
- habitue 4y ago
  Don't fall victim to the halo effect! Both Epic and Apple are right on some issues, and horrifically wrong on others.
  - everly 4y ago
    I completely agree with you - but almost impossible not to think of that immediately upon reading the headline. Loudly positioning themselves as pro-consumer makes this look more hypocritical than it would have otherwise.
crazygringo 4y ago
I'm just curious for the actual UX and platform details. At least on my iPhone even if an app doesn't ask for confirmation before a purchase, Apple Pay shows a confirmation dialog that requires Touch ID. Are there mobile flows that don't require a confirmation dialog by the payment service itself (in my case, Apple Pay)? Or is this mainly about platforms outside of mobile, like PC games where Epic itself has your credit card or something?
bargle0 4y ago
Don’t play games from developers and publishers that don’t respect you.
sashablacks 4y ago
[dead]
deterministic 4y ago
I hope that class action suits will force companies that use “Buy” buttons to actually give ownership of digital products to the buyer. Making the companies unable to revoke a “Buy” later for whatever reason. If your customers are just buying a limited license to use a digital product until cancelled at the whim of the company then make that 100% up-front obvious. And adjust the prices accordingly.

520 points by brarsanmol 4y ago

>Under the FTC’s order, Epic must pay $245 million, which will be used to provide refunds to consumers. The order also prohibits Epic from charging consumers through the use of dark patterns or from otherwise charging consumers without obtaining their affirmative consent. Additionally, the order bars Epic from blocking consumers from accessing their accounts for disputing unauthorized charges. Too bad there aren’t punitive damages. Hopefully this action by the FTC chills other businesses that use dark patterns or ban users for charge backs. Not offering competent customer service is a liability not a cost savings.

cornstalks 4y ago

> Additionally, the order bars Epic from blocking consumers from accessing their accounts for disputing unauthorized charges. I really wish more companies were required to still allow account access after disputing a credit card charge.

rootusrootus 4y ago
I'd like something that broadly prohibited any company that 1) acts as a gatekeeper for any third party services, or 2) offers digital "purchases" from blocking user access to their account without having to first prove overt nefarious actions that disrupt the service. And not some hand-wavy TOS violation, but it should be impossible to block someone more than temporarily without going through some kind of arbitration process. If a company doesn't want to deal with this hassle, don't offer up "Sign in with Google/Apple/Facebook/whatever" (I'm talking about Google/Apple/FB/whatever in this scenario), and don't "sell" digital goods that are hosted online.
- vorpalhex 4y ago
  Yeah, I would like to see where you at least maintain access to your existing (previous) purchases in the case of a dispute. I can understand cutting off a bad actor from making more purchases, but reclaiming their already paid for stuff feels pretty evil.
  - ChickenNugger 4y ago
    That's because it is evil. Specifically, greed.
altairprime 4y ago
The FTC’s order can be reasonably interpreted as a warning shot to other US companies, but I’d still like to see “chargebacks may only reverse access to that which the purchase paid for, not to the right to access past and future purchases” enshrined in law.

thyselius 4y ago

Does anyone here know exactly what these patterns are?

haunter 4y ago
I play Fortnite so I can answer. Basically purchase in Fortnite was instant. You clicked/touched on the button > you bought it instantly. There were no confirmation screens, no "are you sure" etc nothing. One click purchase. And cancellation was very limited, basically non existent. Credit cards were also saved instantly so no further interaction needed for later purchases, so some kids ended up spending a lot without their parents knowledge at all. There are more examples here about the patterns https://www.ftc.gov/business-guidance/blog/2022/12/245-million-ftc-settlement-alleges-fortnite-owner-epic-games-used-digital-dark-patterns-charge https://www.ftc.gov/business-guidance/blog/2022/12/245-milli... They already changed the system like half a year ago, guess they knew about the penalty back then https://www.fortnite.com/news/updates-to-fortnite-purchase-cancellation-and-social-settings https://www.fortnite.com/news/updates-to-fortnite-purchase-c... Now for every purchase you have to hold the buy button for several seconds. You can't click/touch accidentally. Plus there is a proper refund system now.
- berkle4455 4y ago
  This is in sharp contrast to Roblox where a purchase attempt pops up a confirmation screen, a clear explanation of what you’re purchasing, what the cost is, and what your balance will be post-purchase. And then it makes you wait a few seconds before it enables the “purchase” button itself.
- hinkley 4y ago
  I don’t like how sometimes in streaming services clicking on a movie shows the details, while in other places it starts the movie. Now it’s on my keep watching list which gets awkward on family accounts. But at least they don’t auto play movies that you have to pay for. Which it sounds like is what’s happening here.
- thunky 4y ago
  Not disagreeing, but just a note that it is possible to play Fortnite without spending a single cent or giving out a credit card. It's not a pay to play game, so you're not limiting yourself by keeping your money. You just miss out on skins & emotes. So this line from the linked ftc post is incorrect: "Epic charges for in-game purchases designed to enhance game play" Money does not enhance game play. Epic also hands out in-game currency every so often, so you can even collect skins for free after some time. That said, kids gotta have the new skins.

bluetidepro 4y ago

> Additionally, the order bars Epic from blocking consumers from accessing their accounts for disputing unauthorized charges. This could be bigger than people realize. This is very common in many tech companies like Uber/Doordash/Sony/etc. where if you do a chargeback, you often get blacklisted on their service. It would be amazing if this starts to end this practice, and you can actually have authority to get your money back from your credit card and not be penalized by the service for it when they refuse to actually help.

ceejayoz 4y ago
I'd love to see this formalized as a rule/right. I essentially can't file a chargeback against Amazon or Steam, ever, because of the likely repercussions to the rest of my libraries there.
- vuln 4y ago
  > my libraries You may have curated but you do not own your library. You purchased _access_ to said library.
  - ceejayoz 4y ago
    My understanding of that semantic distinction (one virtually everyone on HN holds, I'd wager) is quite clear from context, I think, or I wouldn't be worried about the scenario.
  - MagicMoonlight 4y ago
    “You purchased access to your house, you do not own it. Move along citizen.”
    - gnaritas99 4y ago
      [dead]
hn_throwaway_99 4y ago
This order doesn't broadly apply beyond Epic. It seems to me that they're blocking Epic from locking accounts specifically because of the dark patterns they used to get users to accidentally spend money. I doubt this would be applied to other companies unless they also found those companies used confusing UIs to get people to pay. Which is still good news nonetheless, as the main issue for me is all these dark patterns in the first place.

PurpleRamen 4y ago

That's the second time now I read about Epic Games paying a fine for doing something obviously shady and illegal. I slowly get the impression that Epic Games might be a bit more scammy than your average company.

pseudostem 4y ago
What you said, and what I'm retorting with requires data, lots of it. But my understanding is that given unchecked power in a domain, almost all of them do the same.
- mostlysimilar 4y ago
  Yeah, I appreciate Valve more and more. Epic has the gall to present themselves as underdogs fighting for consumers against Valve, Apple, etc. Meanwhile Valve quietly hums along making gaming better for everyone.
bena 4y ago
Yeah, it makes their kerfuffle with Apple look a bit different. Because Apple charges 30%. And Apple can keep that if there is a refund. In this case, Epic is returning money. They would ideally be net zero on this whole debacle. You mistakenly bought $10 worth of skins, Epic collected that $10. Then you get refunded $10, Epic returns that $10. In the App Store scenario. You mistakenly bought $10 worth of skins, Apple collected that $10, gave $7 to Epic. Then you get refunded $10, Apple returns that $10, and then collects that $10 from Epic. Epic loses $3 on the exchange. And if this is just refunding the purchases, it's kind of a good deal for Epic. As they essentially got an interest free loan from their customers.
- RussianCow 4y ago
  > And if this is just refunding the purchases, it's kind of a good deal for Epic. As they essentially got an interest free loan from their customers. Just a minor note: I believe credit card transaction fees are not refunded to the vendor, so there is still a non-zero cost to refunding customers which likely doesn't make it a "good deal". (Disclaimer: It's been over a decade since I did anything related to payments, so this may be out of date, or I may be misremembering it.)

degenerate 4y ago

> In Spring 2018, Epic executives and managers discussed adding a confirm purchase button to prevent accidental purchases. Though employees were concerned that “it is a bit of a dark UX pattern to not have confirmation on ‘destructive’ actions,” Epic feared that adding a confirmation button would add “friction,” “result in a decent number of people second guessing their purchase,” and reduce the number of “impulse purchases.” > Epic has never allowed users to cancel or undo charges for Battle Passes or Llamas and did not begin allowing users to cancel Cosmetics charges until June 2019. Even then, Epic uses design tricks, sometimes referred to as “dark patterns,” to deter consumers from cancelling or requesting refunds for unauthorized V-Bucks charges. > On July 20, 2018, an Epic Community Coordinator asked if there were any plans to add a confirmation step for in-game purchases, noting: “This is actually a huge complaints on our side and could remove most of the ‘excuses’ about accidental purchase: ‘I wanted to press Replay, my PS4 was in sleep mode’, etc. This is something I wanted to push forward but didn’t have time to build a real case around, has this already been discussed in the past?” > In addition, Epic deliberately requires consumers to find and navigate a difficult and lengthy path to request a refund through the Fortnite app. To start, Epic hid the link to submit a refund request under the “Settings” tab on the Fortnite app menu, far removed from the purchase screen, even though requesting a refund is not a game or device setting. The Epic user experience (“UX”) designer who helped design the refund request path reported that he put the link there in an “attempt to obfuscate the existence of the feature” and that “not a single player found this option in the most recent round of UX testing.” When the designer asked whether he should make the feature easier to find, he was told by a superior, “it is perfect where it is at.” Many more examples in this complaint doc: https://www.ftc.gov/system/files/ftc_gov/pdf/1923203EpicGamesComplaint.pdf https://www.ftc.gov/system/files/ftc_gov/pdf/1923203EpicGame...

BiteCode_dev 4y ago
And despite Epic having great games, this is why I have not installed it or paid for any of their product so far. Also why steam is still the leader despite having a terrible UI: they have been very good to their customers.
- capableweb 4y ago

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

asciii 4y ago

> the FTC said that Epic deployed a variety of design tricks known as dark patterns aimed at getting consumers of all ages to make unintended in-game purchases. Isn't it funny how they $h!t on Apple/Google gate keeping practices? Is this a part of Project Liberty to bypass stores and scam users?

munk-a 4y ago
To be honest though - there are no good guys here. They're all awful. Google and Apple take insane cuts out of any money moving on their platform and while Epic uses predatory tactics to trap people into subscriptions Apple and Google do the same.
- pwinnski 4y ago
  Apple makes it incredibly easy to manage and cancel subscriptions. Would that all companies matched them! One reason I don't begrudge them their 30% is that I could easily lose that much or more trying to get some vendors to cancel subscriptions if I didn't have the easy options Apple provides. Epic is clearly one of them.
  - j_maffe 4y ago
    You have the (only) only options Apple provides because they maintain a monopoly
    - pwinnski 4y ago
      What does that have to do with anything I said? Or is it just a reflex anytime anyone mentions Apple?
      - evandale 4y ago
        There's no system to compare against the supposed "easy" system Apple provides because it's impossible to manage your subscriptions outside of that. If there was some other system out there that was easier to manage subscriptions in and only takes 10% it wouldn't matter because Apple wouldn't allow you to use it.

SimonPStevens 4y ago

Quite frankly in-game purchases has destroyed an entire industry for me. Mobile games are so filled with this junk I don't even bother looking at them any more. I avoid anything on PC that has a store, repeating season passes or virtual currency of any kind. It's even coloured my view of the types of add-on DLC that 20 years ago would have been a legitimate expansion pack, purely because it feels too similar to the dark patterns used in stores. I refuse to give money to the companies that push these financial cons on people.

hinkley 4y ago
There’s a bit of a sweet spot with replayability and DLCs. I have a hard time finishing games. When they add new chapters to the game they’ve moved the goal posts as it were, and that doesn’t feel good. If they introduce some new side quests and a new race, I’ve still finished the game (or let’s be honest, got 90% of the way). But if I want to play Skyrim again as a telekinetic khajiit then I might pay for DLC.
- nottorp 4y ago
  > But if I want to play Skyrim again as a telekinetic khajiit then I might pay for DLC. You must be new to Bethesda games. You buy the "game of the year edition" with all DLC included when it's on 70% discount. You don't buy at launch :)
  - account42 4y ago
    Unfortunately, that doesn't apply to just Bethesda but to most games these days. Even some indies are starting to do the whole micro-DLC nickle and diming.
    - nottorp 4y ago
      Well I ignore most AAAs. Except Soulsbornes. And those tend to have 1-2 large DLCs worth paying for. They didn't get the memo and still do expansions not DLCs :)
- 4y ago

DueDilligence 4y ago

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wantsanagent 4y ago

"After receiving five comments, the Commission voted 4-0 to approve the complaint and order against Epic and the responses to the commenters." What? Were these just five people who happened to be in the room? How do you receive only 5 comments?

hinkley 4y ago
I worked a contract for a state appeals court way back in the day. I believe anything the judge considers is recorded as part of the case, so “comment” is more official than just raising your hand. Either you’ve filed a document or taken the witness stand. Either way lawyers are involved so that’s a lot of friction.

blitzar 4y ago

Duplicate / part of - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35168285 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35168285 - Americans lost a record $10.3B to online scammers last year, FBI says

yalogin 4y ago

Who gets this penalty? The FTC? Why do these penalties always end up as a fine for the company? They should also be forced to simply go and refund the amount they overcharged at least and preferably add a multiple too.

verall 4y ago
>Under the FTC’s order, Epic must pay $245 million, which will be used to provide refunds to consumers.
- last_responder 4y ago
  I will anxiously await my check for $0.25
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
pwinnski 4y ago
Mostly lawyers.

tagyro 4y ago

My comment is going to get downvoted (or worse, ignored), but here I go again: We, as software engineers (or working in the field), have the power to not implement these features when our employer asks us to do it. Everyday we read about organisations using dark patterns in their (software) products and then we come to HN to complain about it. How did these features get built? By whom? Yes, I realise not everyone has the privilege to say "NO", but at least some of us can and should push back.

rootusrootus 4y ago
I think a lot of us do push back on the product owners and designers when something seems obviously bad. But I don't think it's good advice to encourage people to unilaterally declare themselves the gatekeeper just because they write the code.
- YeahNO 4y ago
  Articulating why a certain function is bad design or is actively harmful is not the same as gatekeeping. I have lost opportunities because I chose to follow my ethics over my bank account. I do not regret those decisions. Software developers should have a professional code of ethics. Other professions have them, why not computer scientists, computer engineers, and software developers? There is the ACM/IEEE-CS Software Engineering Code, but I don't know any professionals outside academia that remain ACM members, IEEE membership might remain relevant for computer engineers, so I may well be wrong in that regard.
  - tagyro 4y ago
    When I studied (industrial) engineering, we had a creed and naïve me still believes in that. https://order-of-the-engineer.org/about-the-order/obligation/ https://order-of-the-engineer.org/about-the-order/obligation...
    - intelVISA 4y ago
      We're young as a profession, once ML automates away a lot of the low hanging fruit I'd imagine we'll go a similar path.

angryjim 4y ago

I've had repeated issues using Fortnite gift cards, some I bought myself. Zero help from Epic. I bet others have as well.

awill 4y ago

Epic love to complain about Valve, but consumers all love Valve. Epic? Not so much.

justin66 4y ago
> consumers all love Valve Where do people get ideas like this?
Loughla 4y ago
I deal with Valve, because I have to. There is not a good way to get video games that doesn't involve pirating, unless you use a platform like Steam. The fact that I do not really own the games is a huge pain in my ass, but I love video games, and want to spend my actual money on them, so I'm kind of stuck.
- joveian 4y ago
  You don't have to use Steam, there is at least GOG which is much better in a number of ways. Refunds not tied to playtime but available for 30 days and most games (almost all currently but they have said they will start to sell DRMed online-focused games) work fully offline with no activation. They have a bunch of quality games and you can support developers who don't insist on using abusive practices. There are still some issues with obnoxious DLC practices but overall it much better. Some specific games may only be available on Steam but in general it is not at all necessary to use it. Unfortunately, besides GOG there are only a few other tiny DRM-free stores. Itch isn't that tiny but isn't super practical as a main game store (lots of junk, hard to find the quality stuff) and also isn't fully DRM-free, doesn't obviously label games the do have DRM, and each developer can decide to issue refunds or not so you can't rely on anything. The more money people spend on DRM-free games the more options there will be.

jamesy0ung 4y ago

I've honestly never understood the point of buying skins. Admittedly I guess game monetization is difficult, I'm not going to pay to get nothing, and I'm not going to play pay to win games either. Most games I play are paid upfront.

19h 4y ago

Pretty sure if Tencent wasn’t involved the FTC wouldn’t be this invested into making Epic bleed ..

Arch-TK 4y ago

Only 245M? Should have gone for 2.45B. That would have hopefully made Epic reconsider its trashy existence on this planet.

jsmeaton 4y ago

Hah. A few years ago my young child (6) racked up an $800 bill on consmetics playing on the Wii. It was my fault - I didn’t require a password to make purchases and he spammed the buy button. To his credit he came straight to me and told me he got all of the items “for free”. After a huge muck around I finally got a refund (dealing with a combination of Nintendo and Epic) but the outcome was that I could no longer use a credit card to make purchase on my account ever again. They’ve known for a long long time that accidental purchases happen and avoided having a decent path to refund (up until somewhat recently according to TFA) so I’m glad they’re being slapped with regulations.

everly 4y ago

This type of thing definitely makes me less sympathetic to their complaints about Apple's anti-consumer practices (regardless of the validity of those complaints)

habitue 4y ago
Don't fall victim to the halo effect! Both Epic and Apple are right on some issues, and horrifically wrong on others.
- everly 4y ago
  I completely agree with you - but almost impossible not to think of that immediately upon reading the headline. Loudly positioning themselves as pro-consumer makes this look more hypocritical than it would have otherwise.

crazygringo 4y ago

I'm just curious for the actual UX and platform details. At least on my iPhone even if an app doesn't ask for confirmation before a purchase, Apple Pay shows a confirmation dialog that requires Touch ID. Are there mobile flows that don't require a confirmation dialog by the payment service itself (in my case, Apple Pay)? Or is this mainly about platforms outside of mobile, like PC games where Epic itself has your credit card or something?

bargle0 4y ago

Don’t play games from developers and publishers that don’t respect you.

sashablacks 4y ago

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deterministic 4y ago

I hope that class action suits will force companies that use “Buy” buttons to actually give ownership of digital products to the buyer. Making the companies unable to revoke a “Buy” later for whatever reason. If your customers are just buying a limited license to use a digital product until cancelled at the whim of the company then make that 100% up-front obvious. And adjust the prices accordingly.