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I've bought an LG Smart TV 5 years ago, read t&c where I was supposed to grant them any data they wanted, decided to disagree and kept all network functions dis
by korzinka 12d ago
I've bought an LG Smart TV 5 years ago, read t&c where I was supposed to grant them any data they wanted, decided to disagree and kept all network functions disabled. I was ridiculed by my friends for that. At some point, I thought - maybe I'm really crazy to do so? Who am I, a caveman, a luddite? Oh well, I'm not. Not a bad tv though, many HDMI ports!
- throw93947309 12d agoThis. Why would you even connect TV to the network? It is well known for like 5 years. Smsrt TVs go through your movies library, and upload screenshots and filenames to internet. Some will start showing ads after firmware upgrade.
- unixhero 12d agoThey do screenshot? Do you have a source so I can read more?
- gnz11 12d agohttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automatic_content_recognition https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automatic_content_recognition
- wongarsu 12d agohttps://www.ftc.gov/business-guidance/blog/2017/02/what-vizio-was-doing-behind-tv-screen https://www.ftc.gov/business-guidance/blog/2017/02/what-vizi... "Starting in 2014, Vizio made TVs that automatically tracked what consumers were watching and transmitted that data back to its servers. Vizio even retrofitted older models by installing its tracking software remotely. All of this, the FTC and AG allege, was done without clearly telling consumers or getting their consent. ... "Vizio collected a selection of pixels on the screen that it matched to a database of TV, movie, and commercial content https://arxiv.org/pdf/2409.06203 https://arxiv.org/pdf/2409.06203 shows LG and Samsung doing something similar
- patrickk 12d agoYes tv makers were caught doing HDMI fingerprinting. There was a story some years ago about how basically all smart tv makers were sending data to an ad network based in China. Samsung were openly bragging about this on their website some years ago (for the benefit of their advertising partners) but have recently muddied the waters when I check their site again, couching it in language mentioning privacy and other evasive language: https://www.samsung.com/us/support/answer/ANS10010616/ https://www.samsung.com/us/support/answer/ANS10010616/
- gosub100 12d agohttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IvFu343KNek https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IvFu343KNek
- miki123211 12d agoIt's (mostly) a US thing; basically subsidizing TV prices with ad revenue. It's how the entry-level companies like Vizio operate, though the "big brand" TV makers are certainly just as guilty here. It's much less of a thing in the EU, where data privacy laws are stricter and TVs are hence (comparatively) more expensive. As far as I know, they don't literally scan your media libraries; they screenshot whatever you're watching through HDMI (most often cable / satellite boxes), as those devices don't provide the telemetry that normal apps do. This info is used for audience measurement (thing Nielsen ratings), as well as showing you ads that are actually likely to match your interests.
- wolvoleo 11d agoNo this is isn't just a US thing anymore. Every TV has automatic content recognition now, of some kind or other. Even in the EU.
- amelius 12d agoDid you know that ethernet can run over HDMI? It's called HDMI Ethernet Channel (HEC).
- bzzzt 12d agoYes, but support in devices and cables is very limited.
- iamtedd 12d agoHow much would support increase when manufacturers realise how few of their TVs don't get connected to the network?
- eks391 12d agoThen you make sure to only use HDMI cables that aren't HEC, in conjunction with not connecting the TV to the internet directly, if you want to keep them isolated.
- rcxdude 12d agoTheir solution to that is to either use the cell phone network or services like amazon sidewalk where they connect in through your (or a neighbour's) internet-connected device.
- Dan_- 12d agoI think it’s also possible to piggyback on other devices signed with the same certificate to exfiltrate using BLE. Maybe I’m wrong though.
- _flux 12d agoEven if it did support it, nobody connects their TV to their local network via HDMI, they connect it to their PC. And, as far as I'm aware, no PCs automatically start sharing networking with whichever networks they are connected to. That could of course change. Could be even a nice feature for connecting your TV to the network via your multi media center, if the bandwidth is good.
- ezst 12d ago> This. Why would you even connect TV to the network? I happen to have a NAS with family pictures I like to display. I can (and do) firewall that thing, but then you hit other issues like the apps you need to show pictures and movies in the first place not to install/run. I've yet to hear of a reasonable recipe to isolate and secure such connected TVs. And don't get me started on Chromecast or other Android dongles, I've no reason to expect better treatment from Google. Some open source hacked-together box, then?
- givinguflac 12d agoNo idea what NAS you’re using, but I would recommend the Apple TV box.
- jojobas 12d agoAny SBC like Radxa Rock (cheap) to Orange Pi (powerful). 4k output, a linux you control, play retro games or stream torrent movies.
- mapontosevenths 11d agoNot well. If you only care about file playback, bit still care about things like HDR and quality audio I would recommend something like the OSMC Vero V instead. It's still relatively cheap, and open source, but also let's you playback something like a blu-ray rip without loss of quality. It has the other bonus of not requiring any real setup or maintenance.
- jojobas 11d agoGBM/DRM Kodi supports HDR video on the Orange Pi 5 family. You can grab whatever audio from HDMI or plug whatever in the usb port, the only advantage of this Vero is the optical out.
- Melatonic 11d agoDoes the optical out actually transcode to 5.1 or is it only proper optical when the source has DD built in ?
- jangxx 12d agoI use the built-in AirPlay receiver on my Sony TV quite a bit and that requires network access
- Dan_- 12d agoLG’s AirPlay requires internet access.
- trueno 12d agochrist we need to start rooting tvs and start up a open and secure tv os. i never give my tv os internet access i rely on the appletv for the "smart tv" but if what another poster says is true about lg devices looking for public wifi to exfiltrate data then lol time to start pulling tvs apart and shielding their network components from getting a signal
- mopsi 11d agoThat basically exists, but runs on external hardware: https://kodi.tv/ https://kodi.tv/ There's no need for the TV to be anything but a dumb screen that has only "power on", "power off", "volume up", "volume down" and "mute" functions. Most are probably too underpowered anyway to be useful.
- wavesplash 12d agoWatch the video the article is based on - not connecting to the internet doesn't keep you safe in many cases: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6IFVTcM28KA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6IFVTcM28KA
- p0lychromatic 12d agoThis is because they rooted the TV. They can just start a capture, record to RAM / storage, and retrieve it later when it is reconnected to the network. Otherwise if it's disconnected, it is still hard to exfiltrate the data somewhere. Maybe they could get creative via Bluetooth, but then you would need a cooperating device in proximity of the device.
- nerevarthelame 11d agoI think the main risk is that if you - or your kids, or your spouse, or a guest, or someone you give/sell the TV to - do connect the TV to the Internet for even a moment years from now, then all those logs you wanted to keep away from LG are likely to delivered.
- account42 11d ago"Watch this two hour long video" is not a particularly useful reply. If you think the TV can exfiltrate your data without an internet connection then you should be able to explain how it could do that in your own words.
- jandrese 11d agoJust because you didn't allow it on your local WiFi doesn't mean it did not connect to the Internet. Your neighbors might have a guest WiFi it can use. Or maybe it has a built-in cell modem. Your data is valuable, there's reason to put effort into getting it.
- dataflow 11d agoWouldn't using a neighbor's Wi-Fi without anyone's permission or instruction violate CFAA or some other law? Also, wouldn't this be trivial to test by just setting up your own network and seeing if the TV connects?
- duped 11d agoThe alternative is inconvenient and more expensive. And most people simply don't care.
- johnnyanmac 11d agoWe don't really have alternatives, period. LG is the one in the news today, but pretty much any TV this decade has been doing similar things. Computer monitors max out at 32 inches and the idea of a modern dumb TV is non-existent.
- duped 11d agoI meant alternatives to connecting your TV directly to the internet. As in "why would you ever connect your TV to the internet?" is a stupid question - "because I want to watch things on the internet." And it's not like a roku, firetv, or chrome cast dongle is much different (and Apple TV is $200, normal people don't add 20-50% the cost of their TV to do something built in). > the idea of a modern dumb TV is non-existent. They're sold as commercial display panels/digital signage and because they're a business product that isn't subsidized by advertising/spyware they cost a good bit more. But the panels and controls are basically identical to high end TVs.
- elp 11d agoA cheap 4k generic android media box is less than $70 on Amazon. There are dozens of them. I use one because half the apps on my old smart TV don't work anymore. The android ones are always up to date and the UX is better. Is there any TV on the market that flat out wont work if it can't see the internet?
- gblargg 11d agoI was going to suggest updating firmware initially right after your purchase, but that could also update a list of Wi-Fi credentials so it can continue to connect to the Internet using other nearby access points.
- AdamN 12d agoOnly give the permissions you want the device/agent/human to use - no more. Same for anything whether you trust it or not (or somewhere in between).
- chrisBob 12d agoMy in-laws were so proud of themselves. I came home one day and they told me they figured out how to connect my TV to the network so that I don’t have to use my Apple TV if I don’t want. I had to take a few deep breaths to keep from yelling. I am very happy with my TCL tv but I trust it about as far as I can throw my father in law.
- grepfru_it 12d agoAt least with LG you can revoke your consent. I came home to found STT audio recording enabled and I promptly disabled it and lectured the household about privacy.
- Sophira 12d agoNah, you're not crazy. I'm also someone who actually reads terms documents, because I find that they're often the only thing that will be truthful about a company's intentions. And keeping it completely disconnected from the internet should be the default, in my opinion.
- snvzz 12d agoOnly good until the device starts using a neighbor's LG TV as access point, without telling you, for the sole purpose of upgrading itself and sending this "telemetry".
- recurseP 12d agoReally?
- otikik 12d agoWell that is how Airtags work. Any iphone/ipad/mac nearby will act as a router for them[1] Given that we have already established that LG is a shady company, I wouldn't put it beyond them to try to use the same trick. [1]https://lifehacker.com/tech/how-apple-airtags-actually-work https://lifehacker.com/tech/how-apple-airtags-actually-work
- antonkochubey 12d agoIt's also how Amazon Sidewalk works for many Alexa-enabled devices
- wolvoleo 11d agoYeah and my worry is, TVs like this can use sidewalk to connect to when they are not provided with internet access by the user (either but plugging into ethernet or connecting WiFi). Leaving the TV with an always-available exfiltration channel for it's espionage of the user's viewing habits. This is a really bad thing for those of us who until now have just not connected our 'smart' shit to the internet. Where I live in the EU they don't do sidewalk otherwise I'd have to look at ways to fight it (disassociate connections or DDoS the devices providing sidewalk routing)
- NooneAtAll3 12d ago> Not a bad tv though, many HDMI ports! that's not a plus, tho
- wolvoleo 11d agoWhy?
- soleveloper 12d agoIs there a list of all LG tracking services and external DNS endpoints? I'd just block them - and keep local streaming and remote control working edit: just found out WebOS doesn't support DoH/DoT so nextdns won't work. I wonder if one of the public dns providers got LG blocklisted natively with specific IP
- rcarmo 12d agoOh, by the way, these things spoof MAC addresses too, so you can't rely on DHCP.
- wavesplash 12d agoWorse, if you watch the GN video this article is based on you'll find the TV can figure out how to leverage other non obvious networks (threads, etc) to reach LG servers. Worth a watch to see how bad this is: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6IFVTcM28KA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6IFVTcM28KA
- shakna 12d agoA few models/firmware combinations have found to look for public hotspots when you don't agree to give them network.
- anonreplier 12d agohave they? what ones?
- Angostura 12d agoMine is still attached to the network, but I’ve turned off all the ad/customisation &AI stuff. Seems to work fine, no ads etc. though usually I’m using it simply as a screen for the AppleTV. I do have it isolated from other devices on my network, though.
- alex_duf 12d agoSimilar, I was only using it as a screen for my shield so I factory-reset it and never re-connected it to wifi. It's actually a lot faster now (it's an 8 year old TV, their OS can get a little heavy on older models)
- dylan604 11d agoIf you're only using it as a screen for the AppleTV, why connect it to the network at all?
- nobody9999 11d ago>If you're only using it as a screen for the AppleTV, why connect it to the network at all? Not GP, but I do so to make sure my TV doesn't try to connect to a different network. I provide specific IP addresses to the ethernet-connected interface and then block those IP addresses. I suppose I could also move the TV to an isolated VLAN, but I spent months (the device was purchased nearly, or perhaps even more than, a decade ago) monitoring network traffic to determine to where (via DNS queries and packet captures) my TV was trying to phone home and blocked all egress for the TV and ingress from the sites/IP addresses to which the TV tried to connect. I suppose that newer TVs might be sneakier (with the kind of WiFi surfing mentioned in TFA and/or installing cellular modems) in their attempts to bypass user control and when I need a new TV, I'll burn that bridge when I come to it. But for now, my TV can't phone home. Or I'd have thrown it away years ago.
- klausa 11d agoSo I can turn it on/off using Home Assistant and my phone.
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- jgrahamc 12d agoYeah. I own an LG TV also of about the same vintage. It doesn't get to talk to the Internet.
- newsoftheday 11d agoWe replaced our old TV recently with an LG and are really liking it. We do not let it on our network though and keep networking functionality disabled. It's basically a monitor for our Kubuntu Linux laptop sitting behind it. We stream with Chrome and use a mouse and the TV remote for audio. Once in a while we actually watch something on TV itself too. It'd be nice I guess if the built in TV app had DVR but if it does; I couldn't figure out how to make it work. No great loss there.
- ProllyInfamous 11d agoI'm still nervously holding my breath for the first disclosure that a TV manufacturer is using Amazon's distributed Sidewalk Network (or perhaps mobile vehicles, cell-SIMs, LoRa) to remotely gather all that viewing data they've subsidized into your artificially-low TV purchase price . But they've been calling "crazy?" for decades.
- opello 11d agoThis exactly. Surely some sort of IoT mesh networking will allow exfiltration of data even without having configured your own device. I'm hopeful that there will be sufficient distrust that "jailbreaking" or "rooting" TV controller boards will be turnkey enough to move to something like OpenWrt or GrapheneOS but for TVs.
- ProllyInfamous 11d ago>IoT mesh networking I'll bet there is already a manufacturer whose TVs can all communicate intratelevisually (non-standard proprietary frequencies) – and then, if even one of them is online... they're all relaying within their private intra-TV spyware meshnets to their various relays. ---- In unrelated news, my 2012 Sony Bravia is still fantastic, even if not for (4K) high-refresh games (the image quality remains fantastic for casual usage).
- mitxela 11d agoWhy not do it yourself?
- para_parolu 11d agoI didn’t care much about data collected but I found that with every update it becomes worse and worse objectively. I had to cut it from in internet so doesn’t get completely unusable
- rpdillon 11d agoI have a similar reaction from folks when I don't trust services/devices. Most telling moment was when I refused to upload my license to LinkedIn because I lost 2FA (token on phone, phone destroyed). Microsoft assured me they would "delete the license as soon as it was verified". I've written too many software systems for too many companies, and I do not believe them. Of course, they'd outsourced to AU10TIX, which did retain the licenses, and got hacked: https://www.404media.co/id-verification-service-for-tiktok-uber-x-exposed-driver-licenses-au10tix/ https://www.404media.co/id-verification-service-for-tiktok-u... That's from 2024, but we just had a larger breach with IDScan this week. Sorry for the digression, but the common thread is how much to trust these companies, and my conclusion after dealing with them for many years is they will lie, cheat, and steal to get whatever they want. Some paranoia is warranted, I think.
- fillskills 11d agoReplit was asking for my license to change email address. Jeez
- EA-3167 11d agoSame here when they find out I’ve never had an FB/IG/X etc account. As though having that crap in your life is somehow mandatory. People who make poor choices love to pretend that they had no choice at all.
- andrepd 11d ago1. Interaction with Meta is virtually mandatory in many places in the world. Try opting out of Meta when your kid's daycare or your building's group chat is on whatsapp. 2. It doesn't really matter if you opt out, because _other people around you don't_: they take pictures in which you show, they tag you, they talk about you, they send you links, etc. Which means they (Meta) build a shadow profile of you anyway. The "personal responsibility angle" is pure fiction.
- EA-3167 11d agoYou’re assuming that my primary concern is my privacy rather than my sanity. I don’t understand how anyone can seek out a non-stop feed of the sort of people who routinely post on FB. I’ve seen exactly what the doom scroll does to people without them realizing it. So yeah if a business requires me to have an account I’ll find a different business to patronize. Frankly if you’re expecting someone other than you to take responsibility for the media you consume, that’s a problem.
- notabotiswear 11d ago> I was ridiculed by my friends for that. The sad part about the privacy discourse is that people not only don't care, but they would argue for the invading party. And I am not talking about your average teenager looking for their next brainrot fix, but highly educated and extremely intellegent people! I've long since gave up trying to talk to people about these issues. Which unfortunately means I'll surrender to exposing myself to this plague to some degree, considering how herd immunity principles apply here as well.
- josuepeq 11d agoIt’s okay to be a luddite. Not everything needs to have an interface. Got into a spat with a manager at my apartment complex because I refused to install their app just to deal with a maintenance issue. He was like, “I don’t see the problem, you have to use the Latch app to open your apartment door.” To which I replied, “No, I have the door keypad code memorized.” Just like I don’t need an app to make a log of exit/entry history in a backend database just to enter my apartment via a Bluetooth lock… …I should not have to install their app to make my apartment livable. Indeed, my argument was convincing enough to have a resolution which didn’t include installing their app.
- scoot 11d ago> you have to use the Latch app to open your apartment door So what happens if you arrive home with a dead phone? And possibly worse, they have a log of when you come and go?
- mitxela 11d ago> And possibly worse, they have a log of when you come and go? Most apartment buildings in the US already use face-tracking cameras to get this log
- switchbak 11d agoYou have a unique code, don't they already have a log of your coming and goings? But I would absolutely not install an app for that.
- FireBeyond 11d agoThey do. But the apartment complex gets a nice little kickback, especially since an app for unlocking your front door is one that has at least a plausible argument for having your location, which means a whole bunch of location data that can be mined/sold/both.
- mrheosuper 11d agoUsually smart lock does not have network connection(due to using battery). But the app on your phone does not have that limitation.
- zerr 11d agoAlso, those "smart" TVs aren't really smart, besides that data grabbing, and are really slow. So connecting some mini PC is the way to go.
- Gibbon1 11d agoWe need a HIPAA for consumer devices.
- Lerc 11d agoI had a similar experience regarding Facebook. People would always remark that they thought someone who knew about tech would surely have an account. People don't say that so much anymore. It's worth remembering that for all the animosity they face, they did what they told you they were going to do when they asked for your permission to do it.
- ieee2 11d agoJust thinking, if this is an issue, how you can dare to buy a modern car with embedded SIM card and GPS? :)
- rustcleaner 11d agoI yanked the OCU (telematics) out of my VW Mk7, and coded out the expectation of its existence from about four other devices with Ross-Tech's VCDS! I also coded out the Bluetooth on my infotainment unit, for good measure. :^)
- dcdc123 11d agoI have an LG C5 OLED and do not give it internet access. It does not nag, every non-internet feature works fine, the interface is clean, and my Apple TV works just fine.
- ololobus 11d agoSame, disabled internet access on my LG years ago using the router config. It’s good that it at least doesn’t stop working without internet
- daemin 11d agoDoesn't HDMI have built in Ethernet these days? So any HDMI cable of a certain specification is also a network cable. I remember these things being discussed a while ago on here, how TVs use their own hard coded DNS ("for safety") rather than any network provided DNS (to avoid filtered DNS ala PiHole), how there's Ethernet in a HDMI cable, how other wireless networks are tried, and how eventually they'll go the car route and just embed a wireless modem in the device.
- walrus01 11d agoI am not aware of any smart TV that actively solicits a DHCP lease and default route outbound from anything it's plugged into by the 100M ethernet built into a current gen HDMI link. At least not yet. And since I think the default behavior for things like xboxes, playstations and apple TV is not to be a dhcp server and provide routing/NAT, I don't think a lot of things you can plug a TV into (also yet), would provide such function even if the TV tried. I'm sure somebody at LG is hard at work on fixing this problem.
- mastercheif 11d agoHDMI Ethernet was included in the spec 15 years ago and not a single consumer device (that I am aware of) ever implemented it. Idk why this is so often citied in Smart TV boogeyman arguments.
- daemin 11d agoBecause it's there and available should they ever want to use it, and most people would not know that the HDMI cable is potentially another network cable.
- gblargg 11d agoI keep my off-brand smart TV offline as well, partly just because the next update could brick it. I just use it as a monitor. External Google TV box is the way to go if you want smart functionality.
- Gigachad 11d agoI think the worst part is that most devices give you no option to disagree. I bought a DJI action camera, I had watched a bunch of reviews and read the store page. Yet only after buying and turning it on did I discover the device only allows you to use it 5 times before connecting it to the internet and signing up for an account. There aren’t even any features that require this, it simply bricks itself after the 5th use until you sign up and agree to the terms.
- 3RTB297 11d agoI usually go for Samsung TVs, but same, I never give it network access. I use a Fire Stick that gets its power from the TV's USB port. Best as I can tell, turning off the TV turns off power to the Fire Stick.
- hatch_q 11d agoSame. And one of my requirements was that i can use HDMI ports without agreeing to TOS. Most android TVs do not allow this at all, LG did.