12 ms·

Get your Windows license refund

739 points by smartmic 20d ago

tolerance 20d ago
Is the money refunded related to the cost of the OS license? Why not just advocate that manufacturers and vendors don't pass the cost off to consumers?
buccaneer 20d ago
Reminded me of the lawsuit Poul-Henning Kamp tried back in 2010 https://ekstrabladet.dk/nationen/article4137373.ece https://ekstrabladet.dk/nationen/article4137373.ece
vkaku 20d ago
This is great. It tells you how many manufacturers make it easy and difficult to get refunds. ASUS is the most specific one, albeit their refund range is between 9 and 65 EUR. Great work.
- graypegg 20d ago
  I honestly would assume that’s a pretty honest price for an OEM license paid by a company as big as Asus, they definitely don’t pay retail!
  - kqp 20d ago
    Why do you assume that? I’m genuinely asking. I’m aware of big companies generally paying lower rates for things, but I believe that’s usually driven by the increased leverage a big buyer has, while Asus has absolutely no leverage, if they switch to Linux today they’ll be out of business tomorrow. It certainly costs MS less to deal with one professional org than a million flaky individuals, but price is determined by supply and demand, not cost. Maybe it’s limited by calculation of its effect on Asus’ wellbeing, preserving them as a major customer?
    - fwipsy 20d ago
      You can get a new Windows 11 laptop on Amazon for ~$200. If they're paying retail cost ($140) for the license, over half that is going to Microsoft. I think most people would much rather buy the equivalent Chromebook for $70. In fact, the equivalent Chromebook costs about the same.
      - vel0city 20d ago
        Retail licenses are transferrable, OEM/OEI licenses aren't and are tied to that specific hardware. Win 11 Pro OEI, $149 https://www.microcenter.com/product/643566/microsoft-windows-11-professional-64-bit-oei-dvd-english https://www.microcenter.com/product/643566/microsoft-windows... Win 11 Pro Retail/FPP, $199 https://www.microcenter.com/product/669901/microsoft-windows-11-pro-64-bit-fpp-usb-english https://www.microcenter.com/product/669901/microsoft-windows... I'm certain OEMs are getting volume discounts, and Microcenter is adding their own margin as well.
      - yepyeppers 20d ago
        That’s not how OEM pricing works. Depending on the retail price and volume Microsoft will lower license cost close to $0. No large manufacturer is paying $140 to license Windows for a notebook selling $200. That’s the full retail price for a consumer building their own PC. That said usable Windows notebooks are usually a bit more than that these days. And just the RAM alone to run usable Windows 11 is pushing $70 now.
        calfuris 20d ago
        That is exactly the point of the comment you're responding to. "Why do you assume that [OEMs pay much less than retail]?" Well, $200 Windows laptops exist, and $140 of that going to a Windows license is not a credible idea.
    - zrobotics 20d ago
      I mean, it's also in Microsoft'S business interest to keep a major computer manufacturer like Asus selling windows machines. That's one of the main reasons windows is the default OS for most people.
- Theodores 20d ago
  Now you tell me... After drowning my last laptop in tea I needed a PC urgently and bought ASUS. Had I known that a refund was possible, would I have applied, to get what amounts to £10 refund on a £2K machine? I am not sure! The Windows install means my laptop has some value in the second-hand market, should I need to sell. Without it, I am not going to easily find a buyer, because it is still not yet 'the year of the Linux desktop', and even then, stock Ubuntu is not as fashionable as some other Linux variants. What did surprise me was how flaky Windows is these days. If memory serves me correctly, I needed to boot into Windows to turn 'bitlocker' off, in order to resize the drive for my Ubuntu partition. However, there was no UI to turn 'bitlocker' on again afterwards. Allegedly I need a 'pro' version of Windows to do that, since the UI is just absent from the 'Home' version of Windows. This process means that I did 'accept the EULA' and therefore denied myself the opportunity to claim back the Windows tax. Drat! In previous decades I kept the Windows install just in case I needed MS Office or Adobe products to do work. MS Outlook was the 'gotcha', but then they got the web version of MS Outlook working acceptably. Nowadays I am quite confident that there is nothing Windows that I want, so this use case has gone, yet I have new rationale to keep paying the Windows tax, to 'insure' my PC with some resale value. I wish manufacturers such as ASUS provided Linux support, even if in a 'community' guise, so as to not upset Microsoft. With my example, I needed to change the power setting on the Wifi card to ensure that Bluetooth worked for the mouse. That was it, yet I had to work that out for myself, with no instructions provided. If I was completely new to Linux then I might have struggled with this or lacked the confidence to spend £2K on a machine that might not run my chosen OS. In 2026 we still have a long way to go!
  - glimshe 20d ago
    You are confused about your dates. 2027 is and has always been the year of Linux on the Desktop, so hold tight.
    - ant6n 20d ago
      …always has been
      - 20d ago
p2detar 20d ago
I finally found the time this year to replace my parents' old T-series Thinkpad Windows 8 with Linux Mint. I also upgraded the hard drive to an SSD. The result - a 15 years old machine i5 Dual Core with 6GB RAM now boots and works extremely fast as compared to before. Also with USB and wireless mouse support out of the box - I didn't have to touch anything. Sorry, if this offends anyone, but Windows (non-Server editions) is a junk OS that I never ever want to see or use again.
- xxs 20d ago
  even finds network printers on its own
- cpa 20d ago
  In my experience, unfortunately it’s fast until you need to use a webapp (Gmail, FB, Netflix…). For document editing or code it’s pretty awesome but a sluggish web is a deal breaker for many these days.
  - dijit 20d ago
    I've had some experiences like that, mostly when Spectre/Meltdown were new. (or if I had a dGPU which didn't have good drivers - or.. if there's no hardware acceleration for smooth scroll for some other reason, like chrome on ARM for a long time). I agree that it's a dealbreaker, and the circumstances in which it can happen are opaque and difficult to troubleshoot. Luckily these days with anything released since 2020- it's a lot better. Linux still struggles a lot with JS runtimes on Skylake. While I am throwing Linux under the bus a bit here, I am still perplexed that we use an exceptionally inefficient language as the major application delivery system of the modern day. We complain that it uses a lot of RAM and is slow, but if you consider what javascript is compared to how CPUs think about things, it's a miracle we get what we get... we managed to get a marvel of engineering and the response has been to shove millions of lines of code through it... At some point, yeah, it's slow.
    - brudgers 20d ago
      Luckily these days with anything released since 2020- it's a lot better. Unless it’s a post-Intel Mac, and that’s all of them these days.
petcat 20d ago
> the vast majority of laptops are only sold with a specific proprietary operating system: Microsoft Windows. The vendors do not remove the Windows license, and you must pay the entire price, even if you do not want to use this system. This is unfair and we want to change it! Consumers should be able to buy laptops without any specific operating system, and should not have to pay the license price if they don't want to. How about this: don't buy a product that you don't want. If you don't want Windows, then buy a product that doesn't come with Windows. Buy from System 76 or another vendor that sells the product that you want.
- edent 20d ago
  It literally says: > Want to buy a licence-free PC directly? Search for your nearest Linux-friendly shop on LinuxSi! (Italian-only).
  - amarcheschi 20d ago
    A big store chain in italy (mediaworld/mediamarkt) sells laptops without license as well, of course with a lower price than the equivalent with windows license
- walrus01 20d ago
  Given the very wide selection of x86-64 platform PC workstation hardware which is capable of running linux just fine, limiting yourself to only a few vendors just because you don't want it to have win11 out of the box is really doing things the hard way just because. It's like going car shopping and having a choice of a dozen brands and 8 or 10 different types of subcompact, compact, sports cars, compact SUVs, full size SUVs, minivans, EVs from each manufacturer. But no, you can only buy this specific model of Toyota Camry or or maybe 3 different models of Hyundai. Oh, you wanted something else? So sorry I mean, I bought a random Intel N150 with 12GB RAM, 256GB SSD mini PC on Amazon to run Home Assistant on, it came with windows 11 out of the box and immediately got wiped. If I'd gone buying only the equivalent hardware that came with no OS or linux on it I would have paid hundreds more for the exact same thing.
- OroPla 20d ago
swozey 20d ago
I don't even know how I got Windows 11 at this point 900 reinstalls later. I build all my own pcs. I must have paid for a key at some point, potentially.
- nazgulsenpai 20d ago
  You could have bought Windows 7 or 8 then upgraded (free) to 10 then 11. If you ever logged in with a Microsoft account for a user, then the entitlement is tied to your Microsoft account.
- deleted 20d ago
  [deleted]
- greenavocado 20d ago
  > I don't know how that KMS AIO tool got on my hard drive, officer; I swear it isn't mine! Someone must have dropped it there accidentally.
flaep 20d ago
Since one can get a lot of models with and without Windows, I would suggest to ask the seller to get a variant without windows. This way availability sorts it self over time. Vendors do not want to sell Windows Notebooks, seller just demand only windows notebooks. OEM/ODM will however only test some linux distributions and very likely support none.
nekusar 20d ago
I bought a pack of Win10 pro keys for $5 a key. Gray market site, but 100% legit. The few times I needed a key, it worked the first time. And for a friend who needed Win11, the upgrade from 10 Pro to 11 worked first time. I'd never pay more than $5 per Windows key. But I prefer Linux instead.
- walrus01 20d ago
  I don't think Microsoft actually cares (or they consider it to be a good thing) because the default out of box experience on Windows 11 is to drive the average non tech home/consumer user towards a whole array of microsoft monthly recurring subscriptions for xbox live, office365 type products, onedrive, etc. In addition to driving traffic to Bing. "Oh, you need more backup space! Take this special offer now for more storage, only $NN a month".
  - nekusar 20d ago
    Completely true, that. Ive seen exactly as you said with 4 friends of mine when I helped them go over to Linux. On the Win11 side, they didnt even KNOW that they clicked a button to sync their files to some cloudshit account (Onedrive). There's no proof either way, but their files were exfil'd. But with the horrendous performance and scam behavior, Ive heelped others to Linux to really good effect. Just theres that 1 person who *needed* Windows and all the abusiv behaviors it inflicts. It was more akin to "Executives dont get fired for recommending IBM/Microsoft", and a utter refusal to try something better. Theyve been a friend for 2 decades, so I gave them the warning, but did help them.
- deleted 20d ago
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- deleted 20d ago
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- DANmode 19d ago
  > 100% legit. Grey market means the codes often work (valid KMS generation etc) because they match the algo, and or were validly issued to a manufacturer, but that doesn’t make them “100% legit”. Otherwise you wouldn’t be saying “grey market” - it would just be the market.
josefritzishere 20d ago
Each version of Windows is slower and more bloated with spyware than the last. I want a refund for everything since XP.
- deleted 20d ago
  [deleted]
opengrass 20d ago
Lenovo, ASUS and Acer only. Dell takes orders without Windows.
- c0balt 20d ago
  Lenovo also takes orders without Windows. Only for "configurable" skews through the website though.
  - JoshTriplett 20d ago
    *SKUs
LoganDark 20d ago
> consumers can refuse to install Windows and receive a refund IANAL, but Windows is already installed, so IMO this wouldn't apply. OOBE is not installation, it's setup. Judge's verdict seems solid though.
- jijijijij 20d ago
  IANAL, but consumers usually do have to finalize the installation, in particular activate the license online. From a legal perspective the technicality of a running kernel may not satisfy completion.
G_o_D 20d ago
So after fighting windows for 30yr i also have started searching for linux os to switch to. Might feel weird initially but its a must now. 60% of my time spending on windows is wasted in refreshing/slowstartup/installing bloat and updates/. Clicking next > next etc multiple time just to install one software. Winget is not upto mark like apt and other unix package managers. As soon as i install chocolatey or 3rd party it starts to stall even more Initially i formatted whole installed fresh no external or extra software just bare bone fresh win 10 install Yet its slow as turtle. And windows standard installation iso is 5gb multi iso. So it waste a lot of my bandwidth. Plus it does'nt let iso download on desktop browser. And only with phone useragent you get downloadable link, and phone doesnt have much space to store 5gb file Cherry on top even if i download 5gb file on phone i cannot transfer it to pc as standard usb is limited to 4GB per file. So i had to install additional ssh or feem or other software for wireless transfer. Or had to use non standard browser on phone to capture download link copy it to pc and downlod. Even after that creating unattended installation is mess and require ntlite or other and hours of waste. And now newer isos despite adding ei.cfg and pid.txt the version selection menu does not appear it enforces installation of win10 home the native laptop was bought with. So hours wasting to upgrade it to pro. So finally this year i decided to move to linux. Keeping window as secondary. But could noy decide due to myriad of varieties. Choice is majorly between Mint or Fedora
- Tallain 20d ago
  I switched to Mint and never looked back. It's one of the easiest transitions IMO, and if you really miss Windows, you can bring the aesthetic with you: https://cinnamon-spices.linuxmint.com/themes/view/Chicago95 https://cinnamon-spices.linuxmint.com/themes/view/Chicago95
  - wellthisisgreat 20d ago
    I’m really curious how many people run this kind of skin unironically. Unironically here means they’d actively seek out to make their desktop OS look… 30 years old? No shade at all, just curios. I def have all kinds of warm feelings towards the moment I first installed W ‘95 but wow I can’t imagine having that UX as my daily OS today.
hmokiguess 20d ago
I think some manufacturers offer the ability to buy hardware without software preinstalled and have the software as add-ons you can opt-in. That should be the way.
- mixdup 20d ago
  Which is why Dell doesn't have a process. You can just buy a Dell machine without Windows in the first place
  - Retr0id 20d ago
    I think they should note that on the page, because it makes it look like Dell is a bad vendor but in practice they're one of the better ones, in this aspect.
    - yndoendo 20d ago
      My issue with DELL is that they support the Genocide of Gaza and profit from the killing of innocent children.
  - hmokiguess 20d ago
    That's not true for all of Dell, I just tried their online store in other countries and it is bundling Windows licenses there. Here's a few examples: - https://www.dell.com/pt-br/shop/notebooks-dell/notebook-dell-pro-16/spd/dell-pro-pc16255-laptop/cto05_pc16255_bccx2?redirectTo=SOC https://www.dell.com/pt-br/shop/notebooks-dell/notebook-dell... - https://www.dell.com/it-it/shop/notebook-dell/nuovo-notebook-xps-13/spd/xps13dx13260laptop/cndx1326001cc#customization-anchor https://www.dell.com/it-it/shop/notebook-dell/nuovo-notebook...
  - giancarlostoro 20d ago
    Especially if you buy a Ubuntu laptop ;)
  - loloquwowndueo 20d ago
    You can but the price is the same.
inscitekjeff 20d ago
[dead]
piokoch 20d ago
That's why I like Lenovo, you can just buy version without OS.
- TazeTSchnitzel 20d ago
  Because the quoted price for their laptops always includes Windows, the option to configure and remove the Windows license is effectively a discount for alternative OS users. :)
chrismorgan 20d ago
Looks like this is Italy-only. I’m pretty sure (though I have no record of it) that I asked ASUS Australia through their online channels before I bought my current laptop six years ago, and they said no. I never tried following it up more closely. In truth at that stage I didn’t mind having a Windows license, it was convenient for testing certain things occasionally. But I haven’t booted into it for at least three years now other than a couple of times to verify that the keyboard problems are hardware, not software.
- OoooooooO 20d ago
  I did the same in germany for Diablo 3 around 2014. Boxed game, ToS not outside = not part of the purchase contract. Got my money back from the store after 15 minutes of quoting the specific law. The Windows boxes had the ToS on the outside though.
haute_cuisine 20d ago
It's unfair that apple gets an easy pass on this, as well as any mobile device.
- ChocolateGod 20d ago
  Apple doesn't pay to ship macOS on its devices.
  - bbarn 20d ago
    Because they don't license it for and support it running on millions of different combinations of models, hardware, etc. MacOS can be clean only because it has such limited scope of what it has to handle compared to windows/linux
- ivanjermakov 20d ago
  Nobody complaints that MS laptops ship with Windows - this is about hardware companies partnering with MS.
- forinti 20d ago
  I reckon Apple buyers are more interested in the OS than in the hardware, in general.
  - gorjusborg 20d ago
    I buy Apple products because the holistic product is the best. I say this begrudgingly, because I do not like MacOS from the user interface side. If I could run linux on Apple hardware and get the same power-sipping performance, that's what I'd be doing.
- semiquaver 20d ago
  In what sense is it unfair or do they get a pass? I’m asking in earnest. My impression is that you may be confused about the dynamics or are just trying to compare Apples to Oranges out of distaste. No one at Apple paid for a macOS license on your behalf in any sense a legal regime might recognize so there is nothing to be refunded if you choose not to accept the license. It’s one of the many, many structural advantages of vertical integration.
6c696e7578 20d ago
PCWorld in 2009 declined to split the laptop and OS. They offered to refund the whole purchase, but that would obviously leave me without a laptop. Utterly pointless waste of time. If I see a vendor offering Linux/FreeDOS, I buy that. If you've had any success in the UK getting a refund, please correct me, but I think time is probably better spent writing to the MP about it as the consumer should have choice when the options are MS or Apple.
system2 20d ago
Maybe don't buy the product with Windows on it? Without an operating system, people won't buy the laptops, and with Linux, the majority won't buy them. This is bs.
blaze33 20d ago
In 2011 I got a 143€ reimbursement from Dell for an E6420 laptop that I had bought for 910€. Maybe I got lucky but I called the customer service, told the lady I did not agree with the Windows license terms, fully ready to argue my case and she just went "oh, ok, let me just edit a new invoice and wire you the money for Windows plus the Antivirus plus etc.". Which was extra nice because I had no idea I was in fact charged for the bloatware, but I still got ~50€ for it on top of the OS license price. This being 15 years ago it feels like a forever unsolved issue. My opinion remains the same, that a personal computer should not be tied to a specific OS. But now with smartphones the hardware/software (de)coupling situation seems even worse.
- throw902309 20d ago
  I would rather get full refound for laptop, if I disagree with the license. Windows is unseparatable from hardware after all... Use laptop for a few months, than finally boot windows install...
  - recursive 20d ago
    The hardware is separable from the windows though.
    - Joel_Mckay 20d ago
      Not always, Microsoft lingers like a fart in an elevator on some laptops. =3 https://techcommunity.microsoft.com/blog/windows-itpro-blog/act-now-secure-boot-certificates-expire-in-june-2026/4426856 https://techcommunity.microsoft.com/blog/windows-itpro-blog/...
      - 7bit 20d ago
        Yes, always. The link you pasted doesn't prove otherwise. It just shows a luck of understanding UEFI
        20d ago
gwbas1c 20d ago
Seems like it makes a lot more sense to buy a computer without Windows preinstalled. > Device manufacturers and vendors should not impose an operating system or software on consumers This is not a reasonable expectation. Hardware needs software to work, and software runs on an operating system. You can't expect every vendor in the work of every kind of product you can buy to offer you a slightly different version than you would like to buy.
- redeeman 20d ago
  i think its reasonable that people who sell computer monitors also demand you purchase a computer or other output device from them. Why do you feel differently here? after all, a computer monitor needs a computer or other output device to work, no?
  - didjdjfkgk 20d ago
    [dead]
  - n2d4 20d ago
    Sure and whoever sells the monitor can sell it in a bundle like that, people will just stop buying their monitor and buy the competition's instead You can do that with software, too. It just turns out that there's more people who want to bundle their software
  - 7bit 20d ago
    You are comparing apples and oranges.
  - dooglius 20d ago
    In fact, this is what happens in the case of laptop displays
    - redeeman 19d ago
      except when you for example buy a spare part, which I know some people hate having the ability to do, but some of us actually appreciate
tosti 20d ago
You can always get your money back with Linux and any of the BSDs. The claim will have been accepted and processed before you've even filed it!
throwaway613746 20d ago
[dead]
lain98 20d ago
I bought a windows license, it didn't come preinstalled with my PC. I still want a refund. I feel pretty stupid.
c0lpan1c 20d ago
Thankfully my work places have had MSDN and/or Technet. I'd use VLKs or request 5 keys per version.
AnodicElegy 20d ago
I switched two of my PCs over to Linux Mint last week. The automatic driver support is shockingly good compared to when I last installed Linux on a PC (almost 20 years ago). It even found a driver for the random no-name USB wireless receiver I bought on Amazon, whereas I had to install that driver manually on Windows. Part of my motivation was that one of the machines was still on Windows 7, but more than anything it was the incessant push to associate my OS account with an online Microsoft account, and the cramming of Copilot into everything, that have left a bad taste in my mouth.
- davsti4 20d ago
  I switched my primary PC over in 1999, my secondary over in 2001, and haven't looked back since. You're in a better place today than back then as finding software solutions to common problems is much easier now. For other OS needs, just virtualize. I started off using VMware Workstation, after a decade (or so) transitioned to Virtualbox, and now today, virt-manager (qemu, kvm through libvirt).
  - SV_BubbleTime 20d ago
    It was so brutal in 2006 that it took me nearly 20 years to shrug it off and try again. I’m not proud of this, but it’s the truth.
    - tough 20d ago
      Its been only 20 years since 2006 maybe you meant 19?
      - SV_BubbleTime 20d ago
        Typo… but it felt like nearly 29. I remember trying again with Ibex and nearly rage quitting X11 config. Glad all that BS has been worked out.
        davsti4 16d ago
bodge5000 20d ago
I havent used Windows in years so maybe somethings changed, and far be it from me to get in the way of someone taking them down a peg, but this bit confused me: > The vendors do not remove the Windows license, and you must pay the entire price, even if you do not want to use this system. Surely if you don't want Windows you just boot from a usb drive and install another OS without having to pay them anything. Its not like Windows can stop you from installing another OS, right?
- rescripting 20d ago
  When you buy the computer, the price of a Windows licence is included in the sticker price. Even if you never boot Windows you've already paid for it.
  - bodge5000 19d ago
    Ahh of course, yeh that makes sense
- vel0city 20d ago
  Its not like you enter in your payment information to buy the Windows license after you buy the computer. That's the thing. You inherently already bought the license when you bought the computer, it was just another item in the overall package like the RAM and the SSD and the battery and what not. So even if on the first boot you just immediately booted into whatever other operating system, you still paid for Windows.
- arcastroe 20d ago
  I believe they are referring to preinstalled Windows as an OS when you buy a PC. The PC price itself already includes the price of the Windows License. And the article advocates requesting refunds if you intend to install a different OS.
trelane 20d ago
Just getting your money back doesn't make it work well with other operating systems. Instead, buy hardware from vendors that ship hardware with the operating system you want to use preinstalled, and with support you can contact to get help if something breaks.
luxuryballs 20d ago
am I the only one that feels like this is kinda tacky on principles, but also how much is it really worth the time, and if you ever resell or VM windows on that same box you can use your baked in license, seems like a small amount of money that is baked into your laptop cost already and they purchase in bulk, I am not convinced the effort of making this campaign was even worth the squeeze and it def is going to be more expensive for vendors to support than it would be for them to increase the price of their products in response...
MoonWalk 20d ago
Site blocked as "not secure." Oh well.
shevy-java 20d ago
The last laptops I bought had no operating system pre-installed other than some DOS variant or something like that. I installed Linux on them. So, not that I have anything against the website mentioned, I think people who want to avoid Windows, already can do so. The bigger issue I see is that people are often not very computer-savvy, in particular the older generation; the younger generation often knows how to handle computers better, to some extent (yes, even smartphone-only folks). For the elderly, Linux is way too complicated. And it wasn't really simplified sufficiently. I do wonder whether AI may change that. Now, I don't think so, and I hate AI, but have a look at Omarchy from DHH. Personally I would not use it for many reasons (including the fact that DHH goes on my nerves), but IF the underlying rationale is that people can use Linux in an extremely simplified manner, then this is a good thing.
schoen 20d ago
I was part of an event called "Windows Refund Day" in 1999 (I think) to draw attention to this issue. We had a march to a Microsoft office to ask for refunds (unsuccessfully). It was fun, but it's 27 years later and it's still a problem. Edit: it's covered on Wikipedia at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_Refund_Day https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_Refund_Day
hn_submit 20d ago
The real culprit is Microsoft's licensing which gives PC manufacturers a "discount" when they install Windows on all their computers. As soon as they deliver machines without it they lose the discount on all the Windows machines they sell. This should be challenged in court and prohibited by law. But so far, no computer manufacturer has dared to do so for fear of losing the ability to sell their computers with Windows pre-installed.
- minitech 17d ago
  Do you have a source for this practice? I couldn’t find any evidence of it with a search.
jonathanberger 20d ago
> Consumers should have the right to decline pre-installed software As a consumer I should also have the right to free ice cream and a pony ride. Many of us have tried to start or run businesses small or large. Does it make any sense for a government to start telling us what software the business should use or not use? Consumers already have the right to decline pre-installed software: don't buy the laptop. There, you've declined it.
- IshKebab 20d ago
  This is so incredibly naive. You're basically saying no consumer laws should exist at all. Any commercial activity is fine no matter how underhanded.
  - jonathanberger 19d ago
    Let's have consumer laws but have the right ones. A company shouldn't have the right to hurt me, for example.
    - IshKebab 19d ago
      If you don't want to get electrocuted by unsafe products just don't buy them. /s
- whalesalad 20d ago
  This is such a boomer coded 'deal with it' take. The manufacturer is going to charge you a premium for the software license. If you never intend to use that license, it's completely reasonable to think that we could live in a world where you could uncheck a box and avoid that altogether.
  - JoshTriplett 20d ago
    Unfortunately, in practice most PC vendors get paid to bundle a giant pile of bloatware/malware/adware on the system, and they eagerly accept those payments because PCs are a low-margin business. So if your refund actually represented the amount the vendor spent, you'd end up paying them more to have a system without Windows.
sneilan1 20d ago
That's a lot of work for what might be $44.
neallindsay 20d ago
I also raised an eyebrow at "the vast majority of laptops are only sold with a specific proprietary operating system: Microsoft Windows", but after looking at some estimates it seems legit. Probably only about 1 in 10 laptops is a Mac. Software developers really just live in a different world than normal people. It got me thinking though: what is a laptop? People probably count Chromebooks, and that seems fair. Is a SteamDeck a laptop? Is an iPad with a keyboard case a laptop? Is a Microsoft Surface Pro a laptop when it has its keyboard attached?
- deleted 20d ago
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- Zambyte 20d ago
  I can't think of any software engineers I personally know who use Mac. In my industry, pretty much anyone who uses Mac is in a managerial position.
  - trueno 19d ago
    all of our engineering teams use macs except one dude who carries his early 2000s windows4life gamer energy with him wherever he goes. as it turns out if you aren't specifically like doing cuda or dx stuff having unix and being able to compile quickly, emulate or translate every deployment target architecture, great ppw ... lends a lot of credit towards many domains of software engineering. it feels like it collapsed multiple devices into one. i just spin up a windows environment if i need to support some janky legacy windows only thing.
    - Zambyte 19d ago
      ... I guess I know a couple of software engineers that use Windows.
  - cgrealy 19d ago
    Every engineer at my job uses a mac. Same for my friends job. In fact, the only people who use windows are finance people, HR, etc
ada1981 20d ago
You guys should check out Apple.com
retrocog 20d ago
Sometimes, it seems, Microsoft will actually OEM Windows at a loss. A year ago I bought some NUCs with Windows pre-installed that were less expensive that if they came with Ubuntu. Microsoft apparently felt is was important to try and hang onto that market. I bought the less expensive NUCs with Windows and then formatted them and installed Ubuntu, saving myself around $40 per machine.
- talljeff68 19d ago
  I think the reason for the this is the additional software applications pre-installed on top of windows where the publishers of those applications are paying for the right to be “distributed” in this way. Think in terms of software that is pre-installed but requires a subscription for continued use like anti-virus software, productivity software, media editors and players, etc. Ie: the Windows OEM license costs less than the total amount of money that the other software publishers are paying for distribution and if you reject windows, your are rejecting things that subsidize the price of the PC itself.
bdcravens 20d ago
Isn't the price the manufacturers pay like $10?
mixmastamyk 20d ago
Better yet, take your business directly to System 76, Star Labs, Framework, or other FOSS/H-friendly vendors, that give you choices: https://trustworthy.technology/status.html https://trustworthy.technology/status.html
- inigyou 19d ago
  ... If the product is as good. Sadly if you buy a worse product for ideological reasons, it's still a sacrifice.
  - mixmastamyk 19d ago
    These are as good or better than the majority of PCs, though not yet Macs, and improving. But what you gain in freedom, privacy, and informed consent is priceless. Enjoy the golden handcuffs if feature X is more important to you than respect. It may be, who knows.
    - inigyou 19d ago
      In the case we're talking about it's only about sending money to Microsoft one-time in the transaction, and the product itself comes with no handcuffs.
      - mixmastamyk 19d ago
        You pay with your data and self-respect, dealing with a micro-abusive partner. This continues as the purchase cycle repeats, including the tendency to get locked into proprietary software contracts.
        inigyou 19d ago
        You don't, because you install Linux on it immediately.
        19d ago
masonwan 20d ago
Does this apply to Apple computers?
paretolaw 19d ago
MS lawyers might visit you soon
thayne 19d ago
One of the reasons I like building my own PC is that when I build it from parts, I don't have to pay then windows tax when I'm just putting linux on it. Although that doesn't work as well for laptops :( .
1vuio0pswjnm7 19d ago
"Consumers should be able to buy laptops without any specific operating system, and should not have to pay the license price if they don't want to." How to make sales when generally no one wants to buy what you are selling, e.g., a proprietary software license Tie the product to another product that generally everyone wants to buy, e.g., personal computers Preinstall the proprietary software on the computer Make it difficult to replace the software (OS) with an alternative, e.g., a UNIX-like OS This worked for Microsoft If the consumer buys a laptop and overwrites (erases) Windows with a freely available, open source OS, then why should she pay for a Windows license

739 points by smartmic 20d ago

Is the money refunded related to the cost of the OS license? Why not just advocate that manufacturers and vendors don't pass the cost off to consumers?

buccaneer 20d ago

Reminded me of the lawsuit Poul-Henning Kamp tried back in 2010 https://ekstrabladet.dk/nationen/article4137373.ece https://ekstrabladet.dk/nationen/article4137373.ece

vkaku 20d ago

This is great. It tells you how many manufacturers make it easy and difficult to get refunds. ASUS is the most specific one, albeit their refund range is between 9 and 65 EUR. Great work.

graypegg 20d ago
I honestly would assume that’s a pretty honest price for an OEM license paid by a company as big as Asus, they definitely don’t pay retail!
- kqp 20d ago
  Why do you assume that? I’m genuinely asking. I’m aware of big companies generally paying lower rates for things, but I believe that’s usually driven by the increased leverage a big buyer has, while Asus has absolutely no leverage, if they switch to Linux today they’ll be out of business tomorrow. It certainly costs MS less to deal with one professional org than a million flaky individuals, but price is determined by supply and demand, not cost. Maybe it’s limited by calculation of its effect on Asus’ wellbeing, preserving them as a major customer?
  - fwipsy 20d ago
    You can get a new Windows 11 laptop on Amazon for ~$200. If they're paying retail cost ($140) for the license, over half that is going to Microsoft. I think most people would much rather buy the equivalent Chromebook for $70. In fact, the equivalent Chromebook costs about the same.
    - vel0city 20d ago
      Retail licenses are transferrable, OEM/OEI licenses aren't and are tied to that specific hardware. Win 11 Pro OEI, $149 https://www.microcenter.com/product/643566/microsoft-windows-11-professional-64-bit-oei-dvd-english https://www.microcenter.com/product/643566/microsoft-windows... Win 11 Pro Retail/FPP, $199 https://www.microcenter.com/product/669901/microsoft-windows-11-pro-64-bit-fpp-usb-english https://www.microcenter.com/product/669901/microsoft-windows... I'm certain OEMs are getting volume discounts, and Microcenter is adding their own margin as well.
    - yepyeppers 20d ago
      That’s not how OEM pricing works. Depending on the retail price and volume Microsoft will lower license cost close to $0. No large manufacturer is paying $140 to license Windows for a notebook selling $200. That’s the full retail price for a consumer building their own PC. That said usable Windows notebooks are usually a bit more than that these days. And just the RAM alone to run usable Windows 11 is pushing $70 now.
      - calfuris 20d ago
        That is exactly the point of the comment you're responding to. "Why do you assume that [OEMs pay much less than retail]?" Well, $200 Windows laptops exist, and $140 of that going to a Windows license is not a credible idea.
  - zrobotics 20d ago
    I mean, it's also in Microsoft'S business interest to keep a major computer manufacturer like Asus selling windows machines. That's one of the main reasons windows is the default OS for most people.
Theodores 20d ago
Now you tell me... After drowning my last laptop in tea I needed a PC urgently and bought ASUS. Had I known that a refund was possible, would I have applied, to get what amounts to £10 refund on a £2K machine? I am not sure! The Windows install means my laptop has some value in the second-hand market, should I need to sell. Without it, I am not going to easily find a buyer, because it is still not yet 'the year of the Linux desktop', and even then, stock Ubuntu is not as fashionable as some other Linux variants. What did surprise me was how flaky Windows is these days. If memory serves me correctly, I needed to boot into Windows to turn 'bitlocker' off, in order to resize the drive for my Ubuntu partition. However, there was no UI to turn 'bitlocker' on again afterwards. Allegedly I need a 'pro' version of Windows to do that, since the UI is just absent from the 'Home' version of Windows. This process means that I did 'accept the EULA' and therefore denied myself the opportunity to claim back the Windows tax. Drat! In previous decades I kept the Windows install just in case I needed MS Office or Adobe products to do work. MS Outlook was the 'gotcha', but then they got the web version of MS Outlook working acceptably. Nowadays I am quite confident that there is nothing Windows that I want, so this use case has gone, yet I have new rationale to keep paying the Windows tax, to 'insure' my PC with some resale value. I wish manufacturers such as ASUS provided Linux support, even if in a 'community' guise, so as to not upset Microsoft. With my example, I needed to change the power setting on the Wifi card to ensure that Bluetooth worked for the mouse. That was it, yet I had to work that out for myself, with no instructions provided. If I was completely new to Linux then I might have struggled with this or lacked the confidence to spend £2K on a machine that might not run my chosen OS. In 2026 we still have a long way to go!
- glimshe 20d ago
  You are confused about your dates. 2027 is and has always been the year of Linux on the Desktop, so hold tight.
  - ant6n 20d ago
    …always has been
    - 20d ago

p2detar 20d ago

I finally found the time this year to replace my parents' old T-series Thinkpad Windows 8 with Linux Mint. I also upgraded the hard drive to an SSD. The result - a 15 years old machine i5 Dual Core with 6GB RAM now boots and works extremely fast as compared to before. Also with USB and wireless mouse support out of the box - I didn't have to touch anything. Sorry, if this offends anyone, but Windows (non-Server editions) is a junk OS that I never ever want to see or use again.

xxs 20d ago
even finds network printers on its own
cpa 20d ago
In my experience, unfortunately it’s fast until you need to use a webapp (Gmail, FB, Netflix…). For document editing or code it’s pretty awesome but a sluggish web is a deal breaker for many these days.
- dijit 20d ago
  I've had some experiences like that, mostly when Spectre/Meltdown were new. (or if I had a dGPU which didn't have good drivers - or.. if there's no hardware acceleration for smooth scroll for some other reason, like chrome on ARM for a long time). I agree that it's a dealbreaker, and the circumstances in which it can happen are opaque and difficult to troubleshoot. Luckily these days with anything released since 2020- it's a lot better. Linux still struggles a lot with JS runtimes on Skylake. While I am throwing Linux under the bus a bit here, I am still perplexed that we use an exceptionally inefficient language as the major application delivery system of the modern day. We complain that it uses a lot of RAM and is slow, but if you consider what javascript is compared to how CPUs think about things, it's a miracle we get what we get... we managed to get a marvel of engineering and the response has been to shove millions of lines of code through it... At some point, yeah, it's slow.
  - brudgers 20d ago
    Luckily these days with anything released since 2020- it's a lot better. Unless it’s a post-Intel Mac, and that’s all of them these days.

petcat 20d ago

> the vast majority of laptops are only sold with a specific proprietary operating system: Microsoft Windows. The vendors do not remove the Windows license, and you must pay the entire price, even if you do not want to use this system. This is unfair and we want to change it! Consumers should be able to buy laptops without any specific operating system, and should not have to pay the license price if they don't want to. How about this: don't buy a product that you don't want. If you don't want Windows, then buy a product that doesn't come with Windows. Buy from System 76 or another vendor that sells the product that you want.

edent 20d ago
It literally says: > Want to buy a licence-free PC directly? Search for your nearest Linux-friendly shop on LinuxSi! (Italian-only).
- amarcheschi 20d ago
  A big store chain in italy (mediaworld/mediamarkt) sells laptops without license as well, of course with a lower price than the equivalent with windows license
walrus01 20d ago
Given the very wide selection of x86-64 platform PC workstation hardware which is capable of running linux just fine, limiting yourself to only a few vendors just because you don't want it to have win11 out of the box is really doing things the hard way just because. It's like going car shopping and having a choice of a dozen brands and 8 or 10 different types of subcompact, compact, sports cars, compact SUVs, full size SUVs, minivans, EVs from each manufacturer. But no, you can only buy this specific model of Toyota Camry or or maybe 3 different models of Hyundai. Oh, you wanted something else? So sorry I mean, I bought a random Intel N150 with 12GB RAM, 256GB SSD mini PC on Amazon to run Home Assistant on, it came with windows 11 out of the box and immediately got wiped. If I'd gone buying only the equivalent hardware that came with no OS or linux on it I would have paid hundreds more for the exact same thing.
OroPla 20d ago

swozey 20d ago

I don't even know how I got Windows 11 at this point 900 reinstalls later. I build all my own pcs. I must have paid for a key at some point, potentially.

nazgulsenpai 20d ago
You could have bought Windows 7 or 8 then upgraded (free) to 10 then 11. If you ever logged in with a Microsoft account for a user, then the entitlement is tied to your Microsoft account.
deleted 20d ago
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greenavocado 20d ago
> I don't know how that KMS AIO tool got on my hard drive, officer; I swear it isn't mine! Someone must have dropped it there accidentally.

flaep 20d ago

Since one can get a lot of models with and without Windows, I would suggest to ask the seller to get a variant without windows. This way availability sorts it self over time. Vendors do not want to sell Windows Notebooks, seller just demand only windows notebooks. OEM/ODM will however only test some linux distributions and very likely support none.

nekusar 20d ago

I bought a pack of Win10 pro keys for $5 a key. Gray market site, but 100% legit. The few times I needed a key, it worked the first time. And for a friend who needed Win11, the upgrade from 10 Pro to 11 worked first time. I'd never pay more than $5 per Windows key. But I prefer Linux instead.

walrus01 20d ago
I don't think Microsoft actually cares (or they consider it to be a good thing) because the default out of box experience on Windows 11 is to drive the average non tech home/consumer user towards a whole array of microsoft monthly recurring subscriptions for xbox live, office365 type products, onedrive, etc. In addition to driving traffic to Bing. "Oh, you need more backup space! Take this special offer now for more storage, only $NN a month".
- nekusar 20d ago
  Completely true, that. Ive seen exactly as you said with 4 friends of mine when I helped them go over to Linux. On the Win11 side, they didnt even KNOW that they clicked a button to sync their files to some cloudshit account (Onedrive). There's no proof either way, but their files were exfil'd. But with the horrendous performance and scam behavior, Ive heelped others to Linux to really good effect. Just theres that 1 person who *needed* Windows and all the abusiv behaviors it inflicts. It was more akin to "Executives dont get fired for recommending IBM/Microsoft", and a utter refusal to try something better. Theyve been a friend for 2 decades, so I gave them the warning, but did help them.
deleted 20d ago
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deleted 20d ago
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DANmode 19d ago
> 100% legit. Grey market means the codes often work (valid KMS generation etc) because they match the algo, and or were validly issued to a manufacturer, but that doesn’t make them “100% legit”. Otherwise you wouldn’t be saying “grey market” - it would just be the market.

josefritzishere 20d ago

Each version of Windows is slower and more bloated with spyware than the last. I want a refund for everything since XP.

deleted 20d ago
[deleted]

opengrass 20d ago

Lenovo, ASUS and Acer only. Dell takes orders without Windows.

c0balt 20d ago
Lenovo also takes orders without Windows. Only for "configurable" skews through the website though.
- JoshTriplett 20d ago
  *SKUs

LoganDark 20d ago

> consumers can refuse to install Windows and receive a refund IANAL, but Windows is already installed, so IMO this wouldn't apply. OOBE is not installation, it's setup. Judge's verdict seems solid though.

jijijijij 20d ago
IANAL, but consumers usually do have to finalize the installation, in particular activate the license online. From a legal perspective the technicality of a running kernel may not satisfy completion.

G_o_D 20d ago

So after fighting windows for 30yr i also have started searching for linux os to switch to. Might feel weird initially but its a must now. 60% of my time spending on windows is wasted in refreshing/slowstartup/installing bloat and updates/. Clicking next > next etc multiple time just to install one software. Winget is not upto mark like apt and other unix package managers. As soon as i install chocolatey or 3rd party it starts to stall even more Initially i formatted whole installed fresh no external or extra software just bare bone fresh win 10 install Yet its slow as turtle. And windows standard installation iso is 5gb multi iso. So it waste a lot of my bandwidth. Plus it does'nt let iso download on desktop browser. And only with phone useragent you get downloadable link, and phone doesnt have much space to store 5gb file Cherry on top even if i download 5gb file on phone i cannot transfer it to pc as standard usb is limited to 4GB per file. So i had to install additional ssh or feem or other software for wireless transfer. Or had to use non standard browser on phone to capture download link copy it to pc and downlod. Even after that creating unattended installation is mess and require ntlite or other and hours of waste. And now newer isos despite adding ei.cfg and pid.txt the version selection menu does not appear it enforces installation of win10 home the native laptop was bought with. So hours wasting to upgrade it to pro. So finally this year i decided to move to linux. Keeping window as secondary. But could noy decide due to myriad of varieties. Choice is majorly between Mint or Fedora

Tallain 20d ago
I switched to Mint and never looked back. It's one of the easiest transitions IMO, and if you really miss Windows, you can bring the aesthetic with you: https://cinnamon-spices.linuxmint.com/themes/view/Chicago95 https://cinnamon-spices.linuxmint.com/themes/view/Chicago95
- wellthisisgreat 20d ago
  I’m really curious how many people run this kind of skin unironically. Unironically here means they’d actively seek out to make their desktop OS look… 30 years old? No shade at all, just curios. I def have all kinds of warm feelings towards the moment I first installed W ‘95 but wow I can’t imagine having that UX as my daily OS today.

hmokiguess 20d ago

I think some manufacturers offer the ability to buy hardware without software preinstalled and have the software as add-ons you can opt-in. That should be the way.

mixdup 20d ago
Which is why Dell doesn't have a process. You can just buy a Dell machine without Windows in the first place
- Retr0id 20d ago
  I think they should note that on the page, because it makes it look like Dell is a bad vendor but in practice they're one of the better ones, in this aspect.
  - yndoendo 20d ago
    My issue with DELL is that they support the Genocide of Gaza and profit from the killing of innocent children.
- hmokiguess 20d ago
  That's not true for all of Dell, I just tried their online store in other countries and it is bundling Windows licenses there. Here's a few examples: - https://www.dell.com/pt-br/shop/notebooks-dell/notebook-dell-pro-16/spd/dell-pro-pc16255-laptop/cto05_pc16255_bccx2?redirectTo=SOC https://www.dell.com/pt-br/shop/notebooks-dell/notebook-dell... - https://www.dell.com/it-it/shop/notebook-dell/nuovo-notebook-xps-13/spd/xps13dx13260laptop/cndx1326001cc#customization-anchor https://www.dell.com/it-it/shop/notebook-dell/nuovo-notebook...
- giancarlostoro 20d ago
  Especially if you buy a Ubuntu laptop ;)
- loloquwowndueo 20d ago
  You can but the price is the same.

inscitekjeff 20d ago

[dead]

piokoch 20d ago

That's why I like Lenovo, you can just buy version without OS.

TazeTSchnitzel 20d ago
Because the quoted price for their laptops always includes Windows, the option to configure and remove the Windows license is effectively a discount for alternative OS users. :)

chrismorgan 20d ago

Looks like this is Italy-only. I’m pretty sure (though I have no record of it) that I asked ASUS Australia through their online channels before I bought my current laptop six years ago, and they said no. I never tried following it up more closely. In truth at that stage I didn’t mind having a Windows license, it was convenient for testing certain things occasionally. But I haven’t booted into it for at least three years now other than a couple of times to verify that the keyboard problems are hardware, not software.

OoooooooO 20d ago
I did the same in germany for Diablo 3 around 2014. Boxed game, ToS not outside = not part of the purchase contract. Got my money back from the store after 15 minutes of quoting the specific law. The Windows boxes had the ToS on the outside though.

haute_cuisine 20d ago

It's unfair that apple gets an easy pass on this, as well as any mobile device.

ChocolateGod 20d ago
Apple doesn't pay to ship macOS on its devices.
- bbarn 20d ago
  Because they don't license it for and support it running on millions of different combinations of models, hardware, etc. MacOS can be clean only because it has such limited scope of what it has to handle compared to windows/linux
ivanjermakov 20d ago
Nobody complaints that MS laptops ship with Windows - this is about hardware companies partnering with MS.
forinti 20d ago
I reckon Apple buyers are more interested in the OS than in the hardware, in general.
- gorjusborg 20d ago
  I buy Apple products because the holistic product is the best. I say this begrudgingly, because I do not like MacOS from the user interface side. If I could run linux on Apple hardware and get the same power-sipping performance, that's what I'd be doing.
semiquaver 20d ago
In what sense is it unfair or do they get a pass? I’m asking in earnest. My impression is that you may be confused about the dynamics or are just trying to compare Apples to Oranges out of distaste. No one at Apple paid for a macOS license on your behalf in any sense a legal regime might recognize so there is nothing to be refunded if you choose not to accept the license. It’s one of the many, many structural advantages of vertical integration.

6c696e7578 20d ago

PCWorld in 2009 declined to split the laptop and OS. They offered to refund the whole purchase, but that would obviously leave me without a laptop. Utterly pointless waste of time. If I see a vendor offering Linux/FreeDOS, I buy that. If you've had any success in the UK getting a refund, please correct me, but I think time is probably better spent writing to the MP about it as the consumer should have choice when the options are MS or Apple.

system2 20d ago

Maybe don't buy the product with Windows on it? Without an operating system, people won't buy the laptops, and with Linux, the majority won't buy them. This is bs.

blaze33 20d ago

In 2011 I got a 143€ reimbursement from Dell for an E6420 laptop that I had bought for 910€. Maybe I got lucky but I called the customer service, told the lady I did not agree with the Windows license terms, fully ready to argue my case and she just went "oh, ok, let me just edit a new invoice and wire you the money for Windows plus the Antivirus plus etc.". Which was extra nice because I had no idea I was in fact charged for the bloatware, but I still got ~50€ for it on top of the OS license price. This being 15 years ago it feels like a forever unsolved issue. My opinion remains the same, that a personal computer should not be tied to a specific OS. But now with smartphones the hardware/software (de)coupling situation seems even worse.

throw902309 20d ago
I would rather get full refound for laptop, if I disagree with the license. Windows is unseparatable from hardware after all... Use laptop for a few months, than finally boot windows install...
- recursive 20d ago
  The hardware is separable from the windows though.
  - Joel_Mckay 20d ago
    Not always, Microsoft lingers like a fart in an elevator on some laptops. =3 https://techcommunity.microsoft.com/blog/windows-itpro-blog/act-now-secure-boot-certificates-expire-in-june-2026/4426856 https://techcommunity.microsoft.com/blog/windows-itpro-blog/...
    - 7bit 20d ago
      Yes, always. The link you pasted doesn't prove otherwise. It just shows a luck of understanding UEFI
      - 20d ago

gwbas1c 20d ago

Seems like it makes a lot more sense to buy a computer without Windows preinstalled. > Device manufacturers and vendors should not impose an operating system or software on consumers This is not a reasonable expectation. Hardware needs software to work, and software runs on an operating system. You can't expect every vendor in the work of every kind of product you can buy to offer you a slightly different version than you would like to buy.

redeeman 20d ago
i think its reasonable that people who sell computer monitors also demand you purchase a computer or other output device from them. Why do you feel differently here? after all, a computer monitor needs a computer or other output device to work, no?
- didjdjfkgk 20d ago
  [dead]
- n2d4 20d ago
  Sure and whoever sells the monitor can sell it in a bundle like that, people will just stop buying their monitor and buy the competition's instead You can do that with software, too. It just turns out that there's more people who want to bundle their software
- 7bit 20d ago
  You are comparing apples and oranges.
- dooglius 20d ago
  In fact, this is what happens in the case of laptop displays
  - redeeman 19d ago
    except when you for example buy a spare part, which I know some people hate having the ability to do, but some of us actually appreciate

tosti 20d ago

You can always get your money back with Linux and any of the BSDs. The claim will have been accepted and processed before you've even filed it!

throwaway613746 20d ago

[dead]

lain98 20d ago

I bought a windows license, it didn't come preinstalled with my PC. I still want a refund. I feel pretty stupid.

c0lpan1c 20d ago

Thankfully my work places have had MSDN and/or Technet. I'd use VLKs or request 5 keys per version.

AnodicElegy 20d ago

I switched two of my PCs over to Linux Mint last week. The automatic driver support is shockingly good compared to when I last installed Linux on a PC (almost 20 years ago). It even found a driver for the random no-name USB wireless receiver I bought on Amazon, whereas I had to install that driver manually on Windows. Part of my motivation was that one of the machines was still on Windows 7, but more than anything it was the incessant push to associate my OS account with an online Microsoft account, and the cramming of Copilot into everything, that have left a bad taste in my mouth.

davsti4 20d ago
I switched my primary PC over in 1999, my secondary over in 2001, and haven't looked back since. You're in a better place today than back then as finding software solutions to common problems is much easier now. For other OS needs, just virtualize. I started off using VMware Workstation, after a decade (or so) transitioned to Virtualbox, and now today, virt-manager (qemu, kvm through libvirt).
- SV_BubbleTime 20d ago
  It was so brutal in 2006 that it took me nearly 20 years to shrug it off and try again. I’m not proud of this, but it’s the truth.
  - tough 20d ago
    Its been only 20 years since 2006 maybe you meant 19?
    - SV_BubbleTime 20d ago
      Typo… but it felt like nearly 29. I remember trying again with Ibex and nearly rage quitting X11 config. Glad all that BS has been worked out.
      - davsti4 16d ago

bodge5000 20d ago

I havent used Windows in years so maybe somethings changed, and far be it from me to get in the way of someone taking them down a peg, but this bit confused me: > The vendors do not remove the Windows license, and you must pay the entire price, even if you do not want to use this system. Surely if you don't want Windows you just boot from a usb drive and install another OS without having to pay them anything. Its not like Windows can stop you from installing another OS, right?

rescripting 20d ago
When you buy the computer, the price of a Windows licence is included in the sticker price. Even if you never boot Windows you've already paid for it.
- bodge5000 19d ago
  Ahh of course, yeh that makes sense
vel0city 20d ago
Its not like you enter in your payment information to buy the Windows license after you buy the computer. That's the thing. You inherently already bought the license when you bought the computer, it was just another item in the overall package like the RAM and the SSD and the battery and what not. So even if on the first boot you just immediately booted into whatever other operating system, you still paid for Windows.
arcastroe 20d ago
I believe they are referring to preinstalled Windows as an OS when you buy a PC. The PC price itself already includes the price of the Windows License. And the article advocates requesting refunds if you intend to install a different OS.

trelane 20d ago

Just getting your money back doesn't make it work well with other operating systems. Instead, buy hardware from vendors that ship hardware with the operating system you want to use preinstalled, and with support you can contact to get help if something breaks.

luxuryballs 20d ago

am I the only one that feels like this is kinda tacky on principles, but also how much is it really worth the time, and if you ever resell or VM windows on that same box you can use your baked in license, seems like a small amount of money that is baked into your laptop cost already and they purchase in bulk, I am not convinced the effort of making this campaign was even worth the squeeze and it def is going to be more expensive for vendors to support than it would be for them to increase the price of their products in response...

MoonWalk 20d ago

Site blocked as "not secure." Oh well.

shevy-java 20d ago

The last laptops I bought had no operating system pre-installed other than some DOS variant or something like that. I installed Linux on them. So, not that I have anything against the website mentioned, I think people who want to avoid Windows, already can do so. The bigger issue I see is that people are often not very computer-savvy, in particular the older generation; the younger generation often knows how to handle computers better, to some extent (yes, even smartphone-only folks). For the elderly, Linux is way too complicated. And it wasn't really simplified sufficiently. I do wonder whether AI may change that. Now, I don't think so, and I hate AI, but have a look at Omarchy from DHH. Personally I would not use it for many reasons (including the fact that DHH goes on my nerves), but IF the underlying rationale is that people can use Linux in an extremely simplified manner, then this is a good thing.

schoen 20d ago

I was part of an event called "Windows Refund Day" in 1999 (I think) to draw attention to this issue. We had a march to a Microsoft office to ask for refunds (unsuccessfully). It was fun, but it's 27 years later and it's still a problem. Edit: it's covered on Wikipedia at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_Refund_Day https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_Refund_Day

hn_submit 20d ago

The real culprit is Microsoft's licensing which gives PC manufacturers a "discount" when they install Windows on all their computers. As soon as they deliver machines without it they lose the discount on all the Windows machines they sell. This should be challenged in court and prohibited by law. But so far, no computer manufacturer has dared to do so for fear of losing the ability to sell their computers with Windows pre-installed.

minitech 17d ago
Do you have a source for this practice? I couldn’t find any evidence of it with a search.

jonathanberger 20d ago

> Consumers should have the right to decline pre-installed software As a consumer I should also have the right to free ice cream and a pony ride. Many of us have tried to start or run businesses small or large. Does it make any sense for a government to start telling us what software the business should use or not use? Consumers already have the right to decline pre-installed software: don't buy the laptop. There, you've declined it.

IshKebab 20d ago
This is so incredibly naive. You're basically saying no consumer laws should exist at all. Any commercial activity is fine no matter how underhanded.
- jonathanberger 19d ago
  Let's have consumer laws but have the right ones. A company shouldn't have the right to hurt me, for example.
  - IshKebab 19d ago
    If you don't want to get electrocuted by unsafe products just don't buy them. /s
whalesalad 20d ago
This is such a boomer coded 'deal with it' take. The manufacturer is going to charge you a premium for the software license. If you never intend to use that license, it's completely reasonable to think that we could live in a world where you could uncheck a box and avoid that altogether.
- JoshTriplett 20d ago
  Unfortunately, in practice most PC vendors get paid to bundle a giant pile of bloatware/malware/adware on the system, and they eagerly accept those payments because PCs are a low-margin business. So if your refund actually represented the amount the vendor spent, you'd end up paying them more to have a system without Windows.

sneilan1 20d ago

That's a lot of work for what might be $44.

neallindsay 20d ago

I also raised an eyebrow at "the vast majority of laptops are only sold with a specific proprietary operating system: Microsoft Windows", but after looking at some estimates it seems legit. Probably only about 1 in 10 laptops is a Mac. Software developers really just live in a different world than normal people. It got me thinking though: what is a laptop? People probably count Chromebooks, and that seems fair. Is a SteamDeck a laptop? Is an iPad with a keyboard case a laptop? Is a Microsoft Surface Pro a laptop when it has its keyboard attached?

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Zambyte 20d ago
I can't think of any software engineers I personally know who use Mac. In my industry, pretty much anyone who uses Mac is in a managerial position.
- trueno 19d ago
  all of our engineering teams use macs except one dude who carries his early 2000s windows4life gamer energy with him wherever he goes. as it turns out if you aren't specifically like doing cuda or dx stuff having unix and being able to compile quickly, emulate or translate every deployment target architecture, great ppw ... lends a lot of credit towards many domains of software engineering. it feels like it collapsed multiple devices into one. i just spin up a windows environment if i need to support some janky legacy windows only thing.
  - Zambyte 19d ago
    ... I guess I know a couple of software engineers that use Windows.
- cgrealy 19d ago
  Every engineer at my job uses a mac. Same for my friends job. In fact, the only people who use windows are finance people, HR, etc

ada1981 20d ago

You guys should check out Apple.com

retrocog 20d ago

Sometimes, it seems, Microsoft will actually OEM Windows at a loss. A year ago I bought some NUCs with Windows pre-installed that were less expensive that if they came with Ubuntu. Microsoft apparently felt is was important to try and hang onto that market. I bought the less expensive NUCs with Windows and then formatted them and installed Ubuntu, saving myself around $40 per machine.

talljeff68 19d ago
I think the reason for the this is the additional software applications pre-installed on top of windows where the publishers of those applications are paying for the right to be “distributed” in this way. Think in terms of software that is pre-installed but requires a subscription for continued use like anti-virus software, productivity software, media editors and players, etc. Ie: the Windows OEM license costs less than the total amount of money that the other software publishers are paying for distribution and if you reject windows, your are rejecting things that subsidize the price of the PC itself.

bdcravens 20d ago

Isn't the price the manufacturers pay like $10?

mixmastamyk 20d ago

Better yet, take your business directly to System 76, Star Labs, Framework, or other FOSS/H-friendly vendors, that give you choices: https://trustworthy.technology/status.html https://trustworthy.technology/status.html

inigyou 19d ago
... If the product is as good. Sadly if you buy a worse product for ideological reasons, it's still a sacrifice.
- mixmastamyk 19d ago
  These are as good or better than the majority of PCs, though not yet Macs, and improving. But what you gain in freedom, privacy, and informed consent is priceless. Enjoy the golden handcuffs if feature X is more important to you than respect. It may be, who knows.
  - inigyou 19d ago
    In the case we're talking about it's only about sending money to Microsoft one-time in the transaction, and the product itself comes with no handcuffs.
    - mixmastamyk 19d ago
      You pay with your data and self-respect, dealing with a micro-abusive partner. This continues as the purchase cycle repeats, including the tendency to get locked into proprietary software contracts.
      - inigyou 19d ago
        You don't, because you install Linux on it immediately.
        19d ago

masonwan 20d ago

Does this apply to Apple computers?

paretolaw 19d ago

MS lawyers might visit you soon

thayne 19d ago

One of the reasons I like building my own PC is that when I build it from parts, I don't have to pay then windows tax when I'm just putting linux on it. Although that doesn't work as well for laptops :( .

1vuio0pswjnm7 19d ago

"Consumers should be able to buy laptops without any specific operating system, and should not have to pay the license price if they don't want to." How to make sales when generally no one wants to buy what you are selling, e.g., a proprietary software license Tie the product to another product that generally everyone wants to buy, e.g., personal computers Preinstall the proprietary software on the computer Make it difficult to replace the software (OS) with an alternative, e.g., a UNIX-like OS This worked for Microsoft If the consumer buys a laptop and overwrites (erases) Windows with a freely available, open source OS, then why should she pay for a Windows license