8 ms·
Functionality that has been deprecated in Red Hat Enterprise Linux 9
- andrewstuart 3y agoErrrr..... what is it replaced with?
- saghm 3y agoWayland (including XWayland), according to the link. The language is specific that the Xorg server is what's being deprecated, not the ability to run X11 applications via XWayland.
- frankreyes 3y ago80x25 terminal, amber.
- em-bee 3y ago80x25 is DOS. UNIX terminals are 80x24, and i prefer green. https://github.com/Swordfish90/cool-retro-term https://github.com/Swordfish90/cool-retro-term
- KryDos 3y agoWayland+Xwayland as they mentioned in the post. I hope it's gonna work. Last time I used wayland (few years ago) there were issues with many applications I used to.
- stbenjam 3y agoI’ve used Wayland exclusively for at least 3 years without a problem.
- stonogo 3y agoNothing. You can use wayland, if you have the same hardware configuration as a wayland developer. Wayland's developers have decided it is feature complete, so if it doesn't do something you need it's apparetly your fault now. I don't know what the future is of OpenBSD's X Window fork, but it looks like I'd better find out. Wayland won't handle multiple GPUs driving a single monitor.
- KryDos 3y agoIt sounds like wayland devs are bad guys. Is there a story behind it?
- melvyn2 3y agoWayland is a more versatile protocol. OP is misrepresenting a little bit, the base protocol v1 is finalized but desktop use will need and already does use many standard extensions. Nothing about being assholes, just a bureaucratic design.
- magicalhippo 3y agoMy understanding is that Wayland is more versatile in the sense of how a LEGO set is more versatile than a molded toy. Yes you can do a lot with LEGO, but a LEGO brick is just a LEGO brick at the end of the day. Similarly, Wayland lets almost all the "interesting" bits be up to the extension protocols[1]. [1]: https://wayland.app/protocols/ https://wayland.app/protocols/
- bzzzt 3y agoJust like X11 uses Xexts and/or toolkit libraries for about anything.
- kelipso 3y agoIt seems like one of those politics things. Focus on PR to get the randoms behind it and get people to switch, doesn't matter the quality, how you talk about it is what matters.
- yamtaddle 3y agoDo we have a name for this yet? We had "Embrace, Extend, Extinguish" for MS' playbook, but Red Hat's run theirs enough times that it seems like we ought to have a name for it (and it's definitely different from Microsoft's EEE)
- 3y ago
- fulafel 3y agoThere seem to be a lot of users still. But lots of previous CentOS users seem to head to Ubuntu or one of the CentOS continuation candidates (Rocky, Alma etc).
- slondr 3y agoAfter seeing the headline, I decided to try out KDE on Wayland (KDE on X is my daily driver at home). It locked my tty, displaying nothing to my screens, and I had to hard reset my machine. I guess Wayland doesn't support egpus? Either way, it really doesn't feel ready for primetime to me.
- kaba0 3y agoKDE’s wayland support was spotty for a long time, only recently has it gotten more stable. Maybe try it with a newer KDE version, but your experience will not yet be that great. But it’s almost there.
- worthless-trash 3y agoProbably kde.
- yjftsjthsd-h 3y ago> The X11 protocol remains fully supported using the XWayland back end. And they already got rootful xwayland, so if you want to keep using X11 all this means is that you have to replace one X server with another.
- slondr 3y agoDo XWayland programs still scale incorrectly when using dpi scaling in wayland? This thwarted my last serious attempt to switch to sway.
- Gigachad 3y agoOnly if you have two monitors at different DPI scales which is impossible on x11 iirc.
- destructionator 3y agoYou can do it with client side scaling in X (which is also the preferred solution on systems like Windows, since an application can scale itself better than a generic compositor anyway).
- slondr 3y agoHmm, how does that work if you move clients around between displays?
- destructionator 3y agoThe client is given an XConfigureEvent when it is moved and can compare it against the monitor's bounding boxes (which it caches in between xrandr change notifications) and rescale itself. Doesn't work with legacy applications... but neither does Wayland so you aren't really behind.
- clhodapp 3y agoIf your frustration was that x11 apps are really blurry then: Yes, unless you use kwin as your compositor and tell it to let x11 apps scale themselves.
- awill 3y agoGood. Wayland is ready. Any GPU/DE that hasn't fully supported Wayland should be abandoned at this point.
- slondr 3y agoThere’s more than just KDE and Gnome out there, you know. There’s dozens of WMs that have no Wayland equivalent, and at this point seems like they never will. I use Xmonad at work. I doubt we’ll ever see a Wayland port of StumpWM.
- ollien 3y agoXFCE doesn't even fully support Wayland...
- Nullabillity 3y agoAnd before anyone suggests Sway, its multihead support is so laughably bad compared to Xmonad that it makes you wonder if anyone ever tried to use it.
- bee_rider 3y agoThat’s interesting, i3 wm has perfectly decent multihead support, and usually Sway matches it at least.
- BaculumMeumEst 3y agoregarding stumpwm: https://github.com/stumpwm/mahogany https://github.com/stumpwm/mahogany also another cool project: https://sr.ht/~shunter/wayflan/ https://sr.ht/~shunter/wayflan/
- slondr 3y agoIt seems like they’re in the process of rewriting it into C? That seems like it would defeat what I found to be the most compelling aspect of Stump, but I’ll likely try it out to see for myself.
- greyw 3y agoHope that wayland will have caught up feature wise at that point.
- porkbeer 3y agoAlmost but not really.
- qbrass 3y agoThey'll announce Wayland is too old and crufty and they're working on it's replacement instead.
- George83728 3y agoIndeed. Wayland will soon be as old as X was when they decided X was too old and started work on Wayland. 1984 -> 2008 (24 years) 2008 -> Present (15 years)
- Spivak 3y agoHot damn this list is fantastic, I have exactly 0 complaints. All this stuff has been more than a decade in the making for removal. I was and still am worried about IBM meddling but Fedora/Redhat is still killing it in pushing Linux forward and being the biggest driver for ecosystem wide changes. 🫡 to iptables for being with us so long, but the future of programmable declarative firewall rules is so unbelievably worth it.
- zb3 3y agoThat's the first time I see an emoji on HN, are emojis even allowed here (technically)?
- femiagbabiaka 3y agoWhat's the ubiquitous replacement for iptables? Last I checked every distro had a different declarative firewall rule manager.
- melvyn2 3y agonftables is the new underlying kernel system, and the (unfortunately named) `nft` cli to manage it seems to be widely available.
- Arnavion 3y agoAnd re: declarative, `nft -f foo` loads rules from the file named `foo`, and some distros like Debian define an nftables service that will use this to load `/etc/nftables.conf` etc. Or if you want to use firewalld you can configure it to use its nftables backend.
- jordigh 3y agoWow, not even Debian has done this. What a world in which RHEL is more adventurous than Debian. So, is Wayland ready? I've been afraid to try it, but maybe it's time to take the plunge. How is gaming on Wayland? I'm afraid many games have been compiled for X.org.
- yoyohello13 3y agoWayland is fine. I haven't run into any problems using it in Fedora. Wayland vs Xorg shouldn't affect gaming.
- mcjiggerlog 3y agoFine for some, but for others there are still show-stoppers. I have a laptop with an Nvidia card and my latest attempt to use Wayland, on Fedora 38, didn't last very long at all before being forced to retreat to xorg by the issues.
- yoyohello13 3y agoUnfortunately, there is not much Wayland devs can do about Nvidia drivers. But RHEL didn't even set a date for removing Xorg support so it will probably stick around for a long while.
- ranger_danger 3y agoAn employee in the comments earlier said the next release (RHEL10) will remove it, but that won't be for another 10 years.
- aforwardslash 3y agoGiven the status of "certified drivers" in Wayland due to their closed-source nature, either RedHat is giving up their graphic workstation business, or removing xorg won't happen any release soon.
- bbbbzzz1 3y agoI want to switch back to Linux but I keep having gpu driver issues. Everything was fine until I got a 165hz monitor then had random crashes. If the fact I am using gnome on xorg vs Wayland was the problem (who knows, I gave up on debugging) then I'm all for it I'd rather just use windows and run Linux in a vm then not use the features of the monitor that I bought.
- gumballindie 3y agoLaptop at 165 hz, desktop monitor at 144 and second at 260. All work fine on linux mint x11 with nvidia drivers and kde. No hdr but that's fine.
- Gigachad 3y agoThe most fun thing about Linux is that everything seems to work fine for some people and be broken for others.
- ergvgdvgrd 3y agoMy experience is if you buy very common hardware, other people have already driven over all landmines.
- Gigachad 3y agoI have a fairly typical AMD 3600 cpu and 5700xt with a mid tier common mobo. All stuff that's super consumer and a few years old now. And I still encounter tons of random issues. And updates that break stuff that used to work. Sure, its a lot worse for brand new laptops. But it never entirely works to the level you'd get from macOS.
- kaba0 3y agoWell, macos only has to support a low-digit number of sanctioned configs, so that’s much easier. For whatever it worth, I found linux’s device support the very best — while windows does likely have some random binary for a given device laying around the internet, it is often borderline malware, and may not work too well on a newer windows version (though credit where its due, windows’ backwards compatibility is phenomenal). Linux has a vast amount of supported devices out of the box, no “windows is looking for a solution”.
- symlinkk 3y agoThe only people left I see arguing for X are Linux zealots that hate any sort of change.
- krupan 3y agoIf you aren't a Linux zealot then why are you even using Linux? Only slightly kidding ;)
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- George83728 3y agoI get better performance (longer battery life, higher FPS in games, etc) with X. I'm not opposed to new software, I now use pipewire instead of pulseaudio. Pipewire is newer and I like it a lot because it actually works better for me. Ever since I switched to it, I've never had a single problem connecting my headphones (which was a nightmare under pulseaudio.) "People who don't like my software just hate all change" is just a cope cliche line from people who can't out-compete old software on the merits which are valued by users. Instead they tell users that their values are wrong ("Why do you need that?") and then accuse them of hating change.
- kaba0 3y agoGames usually don’t go through the traditional compositor cycle of Wayland anymore so there shouldn’t be a difference. For non-gaming usage Wayland should actually be better for battery life as the protocol is less chatty. Though of course it depends on which implementation you use.
- yjftsjthsd-h 3y ago> For non-gaming usage Wayland should actually be better for battery life as the protocol is less chatty. "should" is one thing, but you're responding to someone who appears to have actually observed the opposite in reality, so that's not really helpful
- George83728 3y agoRHEL itself is deprecated for desktop/workstation use. I last used RHEL in that capacity 10 years ago and even then it was apparent that this was a niche it wasn't well suited for.
- slondr 3y agoWill this affect Fedora or other red hat universe distros?
- George83728 3y agoIt wouldn't really surprise me if Fedora followed suite soon, but I have no specific information about that. Hopefully OpenSUSE Tumbleweed keeps X, I haven't heard any indication to the contrary.
- emrvb 3y agoI'm not entirely sure, but I'm under the impression that my tumbleweed installation lost X11 months ago and is Wayland only now.
- George83728 3y agoX is still in Tumbleweed, maybe it's not the default anymore but it's still here.
- itsmartapuntocm 3y agoFedora defaulted to Wayland quite a while ago. But Fedora doesn’t necessarily always follow Red Hat. RHEL deprecated and removed btrfs support, while Fedora now uses it by default.
- slondr 3y ago> RHEL deprecated and removed btrfs support Wait, what?? Is that true?
- saghm 3y agoAnother surprise for me: removal of the `scp` command. I hadn't even realized that `openssh` provided a command named `sftp`; for some reason I always assumed that `scp` was using the `SFTP` protocol under the hood, but maybe I shouldn't take that for granted.
- detaro 3y agoIt doesn't say that the scp command is being removed, but that the protocol is deprecated.
- stonogo 3y agoscp(1) has used the SFTP protocol since OpenSSH 9.0. Before that it used its own protocol.
- andrewstuart 3y agoHoe does sftp replace scp?
- ksherlock 3y ago
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- sylware 3y agoExpected. I still run Xorg... for the steam client and some video games. I will need a dma-buf/drm/vulkan wayland compositor (like the one on the steam deck), but coded reasonably, namely in plain and simple C. Nowadays, innovation in software means removing and simplifying, not adding and complexifying. ELF should be decrecated and replace by something way simpler (for instance putting TLS here was a huge mistake).
- zaps 3y agoAnd this is surprising… how exactly?
- slondr 3y agoOne of the major Linux distributions deprecating the standard Unix windowing stack with no compelling replacement is surprising more or less on its own merits.
- mort96 3y agoWayland works pretty well, much better in some ways and not quite as well in others. I use Wayland on my desktop simply because it works better and the experience is more janky under X.
- imran-iq 3y agoExcept most major distros have been shipping with wayland as the default for a while now. X has been considered deprecated from a long while now (at least 2019) when all the devs went to go work on wayland
- slondr 3y ago"Finished" is likely a better term than "deprecated." There is obviously a gulf between setting a Wayland compositor as the default DE/WM and actually removing X.org from your distro's package repository.
- easton 3y agoHave I been asleep at the wheel or is this libvirtd change a RHEL only thing? Last few times I spun up libvirt on Ubuntu, there was only libvirtd. Maybe it spins up the non-monolithic services in the background and I didn’t notice?
- Arnavion 3y agoThe work to split into multiple daemons started a few years ago. https://gitlab.com/libvirt/libvirt/-/blob/9b8bb536ff999fa61e41869bd98a026b8e23378f/docs/daemons.rst https://gitlab.com/libvirt/libvirt/-/blob/9b8bb536ff999fa61e... On OpenSUSE Tumbleweed I do have the individual daemons' service units (`virtqemud.service` etc from the `libvirt-daemon-driver-qemu` package etc) but I still use the original `libvirtd.service` that runs `/usr/sbin/libvirtd`. I might look into switching over the weekend.
- Arnavion 3y agosystemctl stop 'libvirtd*.service' systemctl disable --now 'libvirtd*.socket' systemctl enable --now virt{qemu,network,storage,nodedev,log}d.socket Went without a hitch. `virt-manager` still works without the need for `virtproxyd`.
- erlkonig 3y ago[flagged]
- cpitman 3y agoKeep in mind what this means with RHEL's support lifecycle: that Xorg will not be included in RHEL 10 (which is probably still a long ways out). It stays a supported part of RHEL 9 until at least 2032. Notices like this give our customers a lot of time (literally a decade) to find replacements for anything being deprecated.
- bombcar 3y agoThis gives your customers nine years to change nothing and one year to panic and die. Ask how I know.
- orev 3y agoIt gives software developers 9 years to receive feedback from early adopters, and fix things if they want to stay relevant. There’s not much point to installing a new server if there’s no software for it.
- harryvederci 3y agoHow do you know?
- bombcar 3y agoEvery single EOL product we’ve ever used has never been a priority issue until long after support has ended. It’s quite aggravating.
- worthless-trash 3y agoIts almost like companies fail to do software maintenance.
- yoyohello13 3y agoPersonal experience, I think. People still complain about python 2.7 even though python 3 has been around for 15 years and python 2 was EOL 3 years ago.
- shmerl 3y agoObviously they are talking about a server case. No one would do it for the desktop where XWayland is still a major dependency. One thing where it can be useful on the server though is clipboard forwarding. What is the alternative in the end to end Wayland use case?
- johnea 3y agoJust another reason not to run IBM...
- plaguepilled 3y agoThis is extremely ballsy by RHEL so you know what, I am in support of it. Will it work? Idk their client base. But its cool they're trying it.
- josephcsible 3y agoHopefully EPEL keeps X alive, like they did with KDE after it got axed from RHEL's official repos. Wayland still doesn't have feature parity with X yet, and at the rate things are going, it still won't by the next RHEL release.
- unethical_ban 3y agoRIP floppies and scp and sha1 and x11.
- lillecarl 3y agoI'm very happy to see iptables deprecated, that'll force kubernetes and friends to support nftables instead, a win for everyone!
- nubinetwork 3y agoNo ipset or iptables? Hard pass. There is literally no reason for them to get rid of something that works, and isn't full of security holes. Edit: while nftables can replace iptables, I don't know of a replacement for ipset.
- supriyo-biswas 3y agohttps://wiki.nftables.org/wiki-nftables/index.php/Sets https://wiki.nftables.org/wiki-nftables/index.php/Sets
- nubinetwork 3y agoInteresting, thanks. Why does the syntax suck? "ipset add blackhole 192.168.3.4" is far easier to remember than "nft add element ip filter blackhole { 192.168.3.4 }"