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Shimano Forces Hammerhead to Remove All Di2 Related Functionality From Karoo

257 points by karlding 4y ago

qq66 4y ago
I don't know we get there, but we need a functional legislative branch that can implement what will be widely popular legislation to prevent large companies from using their market power in obviously anti-consumer ways.
- KennyBlanken 4y ago
  Right now in the US the bike industry is spending dump trucks of cash to push state-by-state changes to bike laws creating a complex system of "classes" of e-bikes depending on power and features (namely, whether they use expensive "torque sensing" assist, or "throttle" assist.) Why? Because there are a lot of cheap conversion kits out there that use generic components, provide more power/range, are more repairable, and can be bolted on to almost any existing bike. And transferred to a new bike. Etc. These systems would either be made completely illegal or regulated to the highest "class", which, coincidentally, the legislation typically grants agencies, towns, and bike paths the most control over - including outright banning them. Which is a huge change from the status quo, where in many states, cyclist have a specific right to ride on almost any road. Bosch and Shimano have invested megabucks into "mid drive" systems which they've designed all sorts of planned obsolescence features. The most glaring example would be that each company's assist unit mounts to the frame in a very differently shaped space in the frame, so bikes have to be designed for a particular company's system. Even worse, a particular company might have several different tiers of systems (Bosch has 3-4 currently) and each uses a different shaped space in the frame.
  - wl 4y ago
    The classes do serve a purpose. Many of these ebikes are essentially electric motorcycles that belong on the road and not on dedicated bicycle infrastructure.
  - nradov 4y ago
    Regardless of legal e-bike classes, those cheap conversion kits were never going to go beyond a tiny niche market. The kits are only compatible with a limited set of bikes and most casual cyclists don't have the skill or desire to install one. They just want to buy a bike that works and go ride around. As a practical matter, the laws on e-bike classes are almost never actually enforced in the USA. I see people riding "bikes" which are really more like electric motorcycles on bike paths and no one does anything to stop them. (Park rangers will occasionally ticket e-MTB riders in areas where they're totally banned due to trail damage and safety risks.) The US bike industry doesn't even have "buckets of cash" to spend on lobbying. Total industry annual revenue is only about $6B (a fraction of any of the big tech companies) and profit margins are low. https://www.statista.com/topics/1448/bicycle-industry-in-the-us/ https://www.statista.com/topics/1448/bicycle-industry-in-the...
- wjnc 4y ago
  If interoperability was marketed as a feature at the moment you bought the product then in my understanding in Europe one could (try to) annul the agreement. Features are an integral part of the buying agreement. That still wouldn't hurt Shimano directly, since the annulment is with the shop. However, with these being 5k+ bikes, dealers would pretty soon start complaining to Shimano.
- tbrownaw 4y ago
  That sounds like the anti-trust stuff we supposedly already have.
golemotron 4y ago
There is no reason for a bicycle to have a computer. It seems like a simple or innocuous idea but it leads down the path toward "bicycle as a service" and let's be honest - recurring payment models impoverish large segments of the economy.
- eimrine 4y ago
  Maybe you have got downvotes because you mean some proprietary software, not a computer per se. BTW personably I consider your comment reasonable even in that wording. Computer adds to that mechanical device nothing except of annoying.
abakker 4y ago
I don't know. Maybe if you were concerned about this, the solution isn't to sell your company that depends on access to one company, to their direct and biggest competitor. Hammerhead bears responsibility for not doing things that have their customer's interests at heart.
hughw 4y ago
So counterproductive to their own interest. Don't they recognize I won't buy another Di2 bike if they maintain this policy?
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- Matthias247 4y ago
  That’s what I’m wondering too. They don’t really gain a lot from the move. But if let’s say 5% of higher end bike owners have a Karoo computer and would avoid Shimano in the future due to incompatibility, then it seems like a loss in market size to me. It’s also not like Shimano could compensate it by selling their own bike computer - because they don’t have one.
- RankingMember 4y ago
  Yeah, why would anyone buying a high-end bike go Shimano if they're going to be hamstrung trying to use the (arguably) best computer on the market with it. This behavior reminds me of the "stuck-in-their-ways" description of another Japanese company (Sega of Japan) in the book "Console Wars". They punched their own ticket out of the console sphere and dragged Sega USA (who tried all they could to right the ship but were subservient of course to Sega Japan) with them.
black_13 4y ago
smegsicle 4y ago
so apparently Hammerhead makes a smartwatch-esque handlebar-mounted computer that integrates with Shimano bicycle hardware, but they're having some kind of contract dispute..? not a long article, but the relevant parts seem to be: > At the request of Shimano, [...] software update on June 2nd [...] will remove on-screen battery status and shifter mode data, front and rear derailleur indications, and Karoo screen control via the Di2 hood buttons from Shimano Di2 drivetrains. > Shimano has withdrawn permissions [...] until we are able to forge a new agreement.
- mathieuh 4y ago
  Yes, but it’s anti-consumer bullshit from Shimano. They are making Hammerhead remove Di2 functionality because Hammerhead was recently bought by SRAM, the other big player in the bicycle component market, who make their own electronic groupsets. It’s like you’ve been using AirPods with your Android phone for ages with no issue, then Google releases some wireless earbuds and Apple decides AirPods no longer work with Android phones at all.
- femiagbabiaka 4y ago
  Hammerhead makes what’s known as a bicycle computer. The original purpose of a bicycle computer was quite simple, to track stats measured about performance on the bicycle. That’s expanded quite a bit. Now bicycle drivetrains are operated wirelessly rather through cable tension, and bicycle computers can integrate with them as well, through a protocol called ANT+. ANT+ is an open protocol, and most bicycle components and accessories with digital features (think heart rate monitor, computer, smart watch, smart trainer, etc.) nowadays are interoperable between manufacturers because of it. ANT+ however does allow for custom proprietary implementations. Shimano was supposed to be migrating away from their proprietary implementation for their DI2 (electronic shifting) systems, but they haven’t, and are now starting a trend of ostracizing competitors. The likely cause for this is that Hammerhead was just acquired by SRAM, one of the 2 major competitors in the bicycle component business. That move from open protocols to closed protocols used cynically is a pretty big departure and could be disastrous for bicycle riders, we’ve been lucky to have component compatibility across manufacturers as an option for decades. I could probably say more but I’ll stop here for now.
kldavenport 4y ago
Is Shimano doing this because SRAM (a competitor) bought Hammerhead? Makes me skeptical we will ever see Shimano STEPS battery % and mode on the Hammerhead. Hammerhead sells an Android powered bike computer with a great set of features and UX compared to the legacy brands that have dominated the market forever (Garmin, Bryton, Wahoo).
- danielovichdk 4y ago
  Yes. This. SRAM is the main competition in the bicycle world for Shimano.
  - lormayna 4y ago
    On the high end, the main competitor of Shimano is Campagnolo
    - markmark 4y ago
      Not anymore they aren't. SRAM sell far more high end groupsets than Campy these days.
      - Matthias247 4y ago
        Yes - and they are not in the Mountainbike market which is dominated by sram and shimano.
    - prmoustache 4y ago
      Campagnolo is pretty much niche nowadays with a less dense dealer network and few OEM contracts. Look at Campagnolo like Ferrari, only offering select high end items for the road while Shimano is more like Honda offering anything from the little Aygo to the Acura NSX and also offering SUV/trucks. Sram would be more like Mercedes, tackling the mid range to upper end but skipping on the really lowest end.
- jeffbee 4y ago
  The Wahoo bike computer just came out in 2016! They're hardly Oldsmobile.
Nextgrid 4y ago
Does this go through their cloud or is it local-only? If it uses Shimano online services they have a point, but if it's local between devices that the cyclist had paid for, why should Shimano have any say in it? Shimano are obviously assholes here, but Hammerhead are also disappointing for not standing their ground.
- markmark 4y ago
  This is local only over a pretty simple communication protocol. Hammerhead had previously licensed that protocol, but Shimano cancelled the contract when Hammerhead were acquired by Shimano's largest competitor. I'm not a lawyer so don't know if they _need_ to have a license for the protocol, but presumably they think they do.
  - fabianhjr 4y ago
    > I'm not a lawyer so don't know if they _need_ to have a license for the protocol, but presumably they think they do. They don't but they were probably using a licensed library they no longer have access to and would need to develop their own library first.
    - hgomersall 4y ago
      I wouldn't be surprised if they signed something explicit about not using the protocol without authorisation or something.
  - mianos 4y ago
    I have implemented the binary protocol from scratch many years ago. Amusingly, at the time, the data files downloaded from Garmins was pretty much the same protocol but just in a file. If you got a USB Ant+ receiver you got, as I recall, the same protocol from libusb. I guess the problem is, once they have been given the protocol in a document covered by an NDA they can't use it outside that contract, even though they could trivially clean-room it.
    - 4y ago
amanzi 4y ago
This is a much better article that goes to the usual, high level of detail from a DC Rainmaker post: https://www.dcrainmaker.com/2022/05/shimano-forces-hammerhead-to-remove-all-di2-related-functionality-from-karoo.html https://www.dcrainmaker.com/2022/05/shimano-forces-hammerhea...
- dang 4y ago
  Ok, we changed to that from https://support.hammerhead.io/hc/en-us/articles/360051706614-Hammerhead-Shimano-Di2 https://support.hammerhead.io/hc/en-us/articles/360051706614.... Thanks!
- KennyBlanken 4y ago
  Folks should be aware that Ray regularly receives highly preferential treatment by Garmin (who own the ANT standard), as well as speaking engagements at their ANT conference. Expect anything that comes out of his mouth to be colored by his desire to not piss off the gods at Garmin. I've been watching him do that dance for years, refusing to acknowledge major bugs people find in various Garmin products that go unaddressed, to not having a peep to say about the absurd levels of market segmentation Garmin goes to. Oh hey, here's him not pointing out that the whole thing is Garmin's fault for allowing vendors to utilize private, secret ANT functions. Instead: > In other words, this is entirely a result of SRAM acquiring Hammerhead earlier this year No. It's the fault of Garmin for creating "private ANT", mainly because they wanted it for their own purposes. See, Wahoo and others were starting to release competing GPS bike computers (and Hammerhead came along as well)...so private ANT let them lock out other bike computer manufacturers from getting advanced power meter stats, controlling their lights, getting alerts from their radar, etc just long enough to force people to buy their overpriced, under-featured, buggy bike computers.
  - abm53 4y ago
    Counterpoint: his recent review of the new Garmin Varia was fairly critical.
  - piquadrat 4y ago
    Well, he for sure pissed Garmin off with his review of the Garmin RCT715[0] (the bike camera/radar/light thingy). At least in my case, his review stopped me from upgrading from an RTL515. [0]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dyr-KJy-xKo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dyr-KJy-xKo
rektide 4y ago
I struggle to think of a good term for companys that insist on high ecosystem control. The idea of Competitve Compatibility somewhat suggests an alternate path. But just defining these denialist products, that resist their users having any choice- it's a pretty blamket phenomenon & yet lacks a name.
- pizza 4y ago
  abusive, isolating, controlling, manipulative, etc?
- alasdair_ 4y ago
  “Apple”
  - darkstar999 4y ago
    Tesla chargers.
- KennyBlanken 4y ago
  Wait until you see what Bosch and Shimano have been up to in the e-bike market. Mid-drive systems from both companies require a specific mount in the frame for them, and of course one system will not mount in a hole made for the other. It's so bad that they've even made the mount specific to a particular product line. Buy a bike with the motor designed for relaxed cruising, and later decide you want the performance assist? Too bad! It won't fit your bike. Wom wom.) You can't diagnose either system without their proprietary software. Bosch's batteries brick themselves if you open them up and attempt to re-cell/repair the battery (third party solutions allow for de-bricking them now.) So when they stop making battery packs for your e-bike, it's a giant paperweight.
  - na85 4y ago
    This future sucks.
  - justinator 4y ago
    So when they stop making battery packs for your e-bike, it's a giant paperweight. I would assume, just as Mitch Hedberg noted about escalators can never break they just become stairs, an ebike just becomes a "bike" without the battery. In fact, I thought that's one of the selling points?
INTPenis 4y ago
I heard once that Shimano are the only gears you can get for your bike, they have a monopoly on gears. Is this true?
- laputan_machine 4y ago
  There are plenty of manufacturers making gears. (Cassettes and chainsets) For example mine are by their main competitor: SRAM
- abm53 4y ago
  No, SRAM and (to a lesser extent) Campagnolo are two other fierce competitors.
  - justinator 4y ago
    All three are going to see their profits being swallowed up by competitors like MicroShift on the low end side of things. Making 9 or 10 speed groupsets is not really rocket science anymore. People (like me) that don't want electronic shifting will be flocking to them. All this broken interoperability and forced obsolescence from electronic parts is just too much unless you really need to cosplay as your favorite Euro Pro Tour rider on your lunch breaks.
- bytesmith 4y ago
  No there are many different manufacturers including SRAM which now owns Hammerhead but Shimano does have about 70% of the marketshare.
  - INTPenis 4y ago
    oic. SRAM was not as common here in Europe when I first started bicycletouring though. But I can see they are present on some Swedish webshops now though.
  - wl 4y ago
    Many is an overstatement. You only really have SRAM and Campagnolo that are making decent groupsets and of the two, SRAM is the only one that makes MTB groupsets. MicroShift is there at the lower end and is probably best avoided unless it solves a specific problem you have. SunTour isn't doing groupsets anymore. You don't want to bother with the Chinese knockoffs of Shimano.
gavanm 4y ago
The high level issue here is around data ownership, and device ownership. I think the nearest car analogy is ODBII ports and data access - ANT+ is a wireless communication protocol, mostly for reading statistics (I think it can also be used for issuing commands). Hammerhead had a license to access the privately configured Shimano data - and then they were purchased by SRAM (who are Shimano Bike division's main competitor). As a result, Shimano is (for now) limiting a competitors ability to see the data produced by Shimano components. This feels very petty to me - most of the data is essentially going to be "which gear is the front/rear in", and "what shifting pattern do you want to use" - though it might also extend to preventing future interoperability (like preventing competing wireless shifting levers triggering the other manufacturers components) - which would be a loss for consumers.
- discreteevent 4y ago
  Lack of interoperability in any system is a bad thing for consumers. However in this case you could argue that Shimano are right. It's fine to allow interoperability without the data. A KMC chain will work with a Shimano derailleur. Shimano should have no problem with that. But Shimano have to assume that SRAM would now get all the aggregate data on the operation of thousands of their Di2 systems. So SRAM could see how much faster or slower the Di2 gear shifts are. How many times the user had to make the same shift twice maybe because of failure. If a user tends not to use the largest sprocket when putting in a lot of effort then maybe it means their gears aren't tuned correctly etc. So it's competitive intelligence that SRAM can use to out compete. When Shimano allowed Di2 interoperability their intention was that it would be for the benefit of the consumer, not their direct competitor.
  - pmontra 4y ago
    I guess that SRAM can afford to buy a dozen of Shimano gear shifts, put them on a bench and measure any parameter they care even without accessing the software. Real world data could be interesting but are they really so useful?
  - MezzoDelCammin 4y ago
    yeah, that used to be true up to 11 speed groupsets. Things are changing however. Take a look into the 12 speeds now. Good luck finding a non-shimano 12 speed chain that works on Shimano derailleurs / chainrings. As for the part about speed and quality info, sorry, but that's "not even wrong". There's absolutely no way You could get this kind of info from Di2 ANT messages. All You have is things like "the gear has changed" and "battery level is now X", not "when" has the user pressed the button or how many microsteps has the derailleur done at which speed. That goes through their own wires (I think it's basically a version of CAN).
richardfey 4y ago
This is not about pettiness: users should be able to opt out of updates that remove functionality. We are still in the prehistoric age of consumer rights for software and it shows. Would you be okay with your dishwasher dropping high temperature washes because the manufacturer decided so? Or a more dystopic example: your fridge actively jamming the wifi of your washing machine because they are from two warring brands
- MezzoDelCammin 4y ago
  Not sure in the case of Hammerhead (I've got a Wahoo and a Garmin), but mostly You can opt out of updating Your head unit. Problem is, it's an all-or-nothing. By not updating You also lose whatever bugfixes will be coming in the future updates.
  - farski 4y ago
    I tend to update my Karoo pretty quickly, but I have never seen any indication that it would force an update, so I think people could stick with last week's version for as long as they want. That being said, this week's update that removed Di2 also added some nice location-based auto lap features, which are way more useful than an icon telling me which gear I'm in, which I already know, so I updated.
pdkl95 4y ago
The solution to this type of intentionally incompatible product is to return to a legal and cultural environment that respects adversarial interoperability[1]. If a company doesn't want to implement the features people want[2], some other company should be able to provide their own (possibly reverse engineered) implementation. Trying to restrict competitors from making interoperable products is admitting you don't want to participate in a well-running competitive market and instead deserve monopoly power. [1] https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2019/10/adversarial-interoperability https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2019/10/adversarial-interopera... [2] including features like interoperability with a competitor's product.
- maxerickson 4y ago
  There isn't necessarily a limitation on reverse engineering, they just can't use the information they had under contract anymore. Weak sauce that they didn't attach the licensing to the devices though.
  - bradfa 4y ago
    It was kind of a brilliant move by Shimano, in retrospect. Since Shimano did share with them how to do everything, it makes it much harder to now go and implement those features after the contract has been invalidated. Seems like a good time for SRAM to realize they should open up info on how to let others create apps for the Hammerhead devices to let indy devs figure out how to reverse engineer Shimano's system.
- hprotagonist 4y ago
  there’s a certain irony in proposing this as regards bicycle components, specifically.
  - arbitrage 4y ago
    not sure i see where the irony is. can you clarify?
    - 4y ago
i5heu 4y ago
I almost bought today a Shimano DriveTrain. Very much thank you to Post this here. I will switch now to another producer. No money for customer hating companies.
- coisnepe 4y ago
  I have a SRAM eTap groupset on my roadbike and really enjoy it. The batteries are super convenient, I only charge them "defensively" once in a while and have never actually run out on a ride. If I had, I could have swapped the one of the front derailleur, which is significantly less used, with that of the back derailleur, and ride another few hundred (thousand?) kilometers. You could even carry an extra battery just in case. From what I understand, to charge Di2 you need to fully stop and couldn't even charge with a portable battery while moving, but I could be wrong. Seems like SRAM isn't as feature-rich, but is more straightforward and reliable.
black_puppydog 4y ago
Apart from sharing the opinion here that this is a customer hostile move... I'm pretty happy that my bikes (MTB and Road) have zero electric components (not even light if I don't strap it on) and I want to keep it that way. I have yet so see an electric part that I need or that even just provides me with enough benefit that it's worth the hassle of freakin' firware updates. Much less having a CAN bus on my bike? is this only for electric bikes or also for gears? I'm confused... Anyhow, I always thought that running a bike repair shop might be my plan B for when I finally get fed up with computers, but I recently realized bikes are now computers with wheels, just like cars and fridges and toasters and door bells... So I'm looking for a new plan B. FWIW, just as with fridges and toasters, I think this is a move in the wrong direction. It increases CO2/pollution footprint and reduces lifetime. And as we see here, it opens you up to a whole new class of customer abuse.
- cyberpanther 4y ago
  Built my last road bike from the ground up and I would say electronic shifting is my favorite part. Its more precise and easier to maintain than cable shifting. All this compatibility warring sucks of course. But there's tons of merit to going digital on certain bike parts.
  - artdigital 4y ago
    Ultegra? I sadly bought a bike just before Ultegra switched to electronic shifting, so mine is just barely the model before. It looks very interesting though, maybe one day...
  - mikeryan 4y ago
    I was just going to say this except on my mountain bike. Just put AXS wireless shifter on there and was surprised at how nice it made the shifting. I barely ever charge it and have an extra battery that travels with my mountain bike “box o crap” just in case.
- xattt 4y ago
  Re: lights on bikes. Dynamos and dynamo hubs thankfully remain constrained by physics, so they will remain interoperable with a number of brands for a long time. I highly recommend anyone that uses a bicycle for any meaningful amount as part of their day-to-day routine to get a dynamo hub and a light. You will save your sanity with battery replacements.
talove 4y ago
I am affected by this. I own 4 bikes, all with electronic shifting and 3 hammerhead computers. This isn't just losing nice-to-have features, many of these features are for safety. One example, the thumb toggles on the Di2 shifters allow me to change screens on my computer without removing my hands from the hoods / grips. They is now disabled. If you are descending at 40-50mph you have to remove your hand from your hood in order to see your map. This might seem minor but the point is that cycling is already super dangerous. The tech is there for safety as much as anything else. I find this incredibly anti-cyclist and anti-consumer.
- elbigbad 4y ago
  In what seems like a lucky break, I also have a Karoo, used these same features, and moved from di2 to campagnolo electric last summer.
- jfengel 4y ago
  I take your point, but there is no way on God's green earth that I am going to look at a map for even an instant while descending that fast. My eyes are locked on the ground scanning for the tiniest crack or piece of junk that would send me to my doom. I can't imagine going any direction except straight at that speed.
  - deebosong 4y ago
    Can I echo this sentiment? I also understand the frustration of losing key features... But yeah, I don't wanna be near anyone peepin down on their map while blasting down a descent at 40-50 mph lol. You better be laser focused on everything in your peripheral and immediate field of view, and look at all the data/ metrics/ navigation after the fact.
    - karamanolev 4y ago
      It's not for everyone, it's dangerous and it should be done carefully and skillfully, but... I cycle 300+ miles per week. 1 or 2 100mi rides a week. Descending at 40mph and checking the map, assuming it's already on the computer, is not a problem. If the road in front of you is empty, it's not hugely different than being in a car. Actually, in a car, you might be going 60 in the same place. Are you telling me you never check where to go going 60? I'd say that doing 25mph in a peloton (or your friendly neighborhood group ride) when riding 8in from the person in front and checking your map is more dangerous than going 40 on an open road with plenty of room, but I can tell you, everyone checks their bike computers on group rides. I'm curious to know if the people saying "oh laser focus on the road never look at your Garmin" are road cyclists having frequently ridden in fast group rides.
ubermonkey 4y ago
It's a super gross, super hostile move. For those that don't click through, the real f-you aspect here is that until recently Shimano's own site bragged of its compatibility with Hammerhead, so presumably people bought Di2 equipped bikes based on that promise -- and now have had it jerked back. I'm not affected -- my bikes run SRAM -- but if I were a Shimano user, I'd be pretty damn angry. It's a petty, smallminded move.
yesdocs 4y ago
This gets my vote for the most ridiculous headline on HN. Complete word salad with very little meaning
- h4waii 4y ago
  Even if you're "in to" bikes, it's almost unintelligible aside from knowing Shimano is a brand. I back this sentiment.
  - PaulDavisThe1st 4y ago
    You only have to know that Di2 is Shimano's electronic shifting to be able to guess what this is about. Compare with, currently on the front page: "Comparing Ceph, Linstor, Mayastor and Vitastor Storage Performance in Kubernetes"
  - cheeze 4y ago
    If you're into (road) bikes, you probably know Shimano, Hammerhead, and you definitely would know what Di2 is.
wly_cdgr 4y ago
I had absolutely no idea what this was about for the first 5 paragraphs or so. Thought it might be robot vacuums
PaulDavisThe1st 4y ago
More than 35 years ago, I started saying "Friends Don't Let Friends Ride Shimano". Although it was somewhat tongue in cheek, it was actually supposed to be true. Nothing in that time has made that seem like less useful advice, and quite a bit has happened (including this news) that makes it seem even more apropros than before.
- taude 4y ago
  I have a 12 year old Shimano Ultegra groupo that has needed very little upkeep and has a lot of miles on it. My newer shimano out performs my newer SRAM on my mountain bikes. Was Shimano new to the cycling industry 35 years ago, maybe they were bad then? I'm sure that was a glory day when Campi was the gold standard or something (I hear this from the old timers). I wish my newer SRAM stuff was as durable as my Shimano, because it was less expensive.... I'm even now waiting longer for a new road bike just so I can get shimano on it, rather than having SRAM on it and be delivered maybe next month....
  - PaulDavisThe1st 4y ago
    It's not so much the tech (though I'd argue it has never been as good as Campagnolo) and more the behavior of the corporation over the years. BTW, at least for road bikes, Campgnolo is still the gold standard, and not just because you need a lot of gold to own it.
    - taude 4y ago
      Haa...funny, I only ever heard of Campi as more Itaian stuff that breaks a lot. Even my hard-core buddies who were Campi fans, have gone away from it on their bikes. I know there's a sexy appeal to it. I might have to look at it sometime when I have more disposable income.
      - caycep 4y ago
        You have to find a network of campy dealers, but then it's fine. They engineer the entry level groups to have the same feel as the higher end, and the cheaper stuff might be more reliable because they don't use as much exotic lightweight materials. But I think you can get Veloce at around the same price as 105, Chorus is in between ultegra/dura-ace prices. Overall, my experience is that Campy reliability is really good...just you have to know how to tune cable tension and use the right torque settings. And you can (or were able to) rebuild stuff easier than SRAM/Shimano. There's some give and take, of course - Shimano's cranks are known to have a delamination failure, but Super Record' front derailleurs are known to be a bit finicky, etc etc etc. But things have been so thoroughly bug tested over the past 4 decades it's really splitting hairs.
asdff 4y ago
Shimano is notoriously anti consumer. I use 2x8 speed brifters. They actually work better than modern ones imo, because you can go into any gear from either front cog with no issue (supposedly this is a no no on larger gearsets). However, the rubber hoods are wearing apart because they are 20 years old, shimano stopped selling the parts, and no one makes a third party replacement. People on forums resort to buying new brifters and casting aside these perfectly good 2x8s that just have some worn rubber on them. I am getting by with some wraps of tape but its certainly not pretty looking.
- giobox 4y ago
  > They actually work better than modern ones imo, because you can go into any gear from either front cog with no issue You can do this on the latest modern stuff too, what you are describing is often called "cross-chaining". Cross chaining has generally always worked, it's just not recomended as puts undue wear on the chain and gears, coupled with the fact gear ratios on bikes overlap so much you will get the same or similar pedal effort from the cog with less cross-chain. Cross-chaining usually isn't recommended on a 2x8 speed road groupset either but like everything bike maintenance opinions vary. > https://wickwerks.com/support/crosschaining https://wickwerks.com/support/crosschaining
- skeeter2020 4y ago
  not sure how this is anti consumer? Shimano hasn't pushed these for years (decades?) and they're allowed to stop manufacturing parts eventually.
  - asdff 4y ago
    By making every single brifter they release have a different hood. Look it up, there are like dozens they've made, the part numbers are dizzying. Compare this to older style road bikes before the brifter era, where the rubber hood was pretty much standardized across most bikes, and because of that to this day you can still buy new hoods for that older style of bike. But not mine made just a decade after that era, because mine is from the "new hood design every few years" era of forced obsolescence. It's a hood. How different does it even need to be year to year?
CalChris 4y ago
DCRainMaker was pretty successful with the Strava kerfuffle where Strava had abruptly ended 3rd party data sync to Apple Health https://www.dcrainmaker.com/2022/03/strava-abruptly-ends-3rd-party-data-push-to-apple-health.html https://www.dcrainmaker.com/2022/03/strava-abruptly-ends-3rd... and then eventually backed down https://www.dcrainmaker.com/2022/03/strava-reverses-course-turns-back-on-apple-health-sync-functionality.html https://www.dcrainmaker.com/2022/03/strava-reverses-course-t... He rightfully has a lot of sway and hopefully Shimano will see his light.
- aenis 4y ago
  Shimano is a Japanese company. They would be surprised to hear anyone outside the company is expected to have any sway over their policies. It's sad they turned to anti-consumer behaviour, as their hardware is top notch. But luckily, there is good competition and one can vote with their wallet.
ClumsyPilot 4y ago
So how does this work legally - I bought a product with functionality X, and later the manufacturer can remove that functionality from me? What if that's the one and only functionality that I need - are they going to compensate me? Aren't they revising contract of sale after the money is paid? Could the manufacturer start charging me subsribtion for some functionality that was previously 'included'? What are the limits to how much could be taken back from me after I paid money for the goods? If I bought a car, and the manufacturer updated it to require a separate subscribtion for driving in each state, would that actually be illegal?

257 points by karlding 4y ago

qq66 4y ago

I don't know we get there, but we need a functional legislative branch that can implement what will be widely popular legislation to prevent large companies from using their market power in obviously anti-consumer ways.

KennyBlanken 4y ago
Right now in the US the bike industry is spending dump trucks of cash to push state-by-state changes to bike laws creating a complex system of "classes" of e-bikes depending on power and features (namely, whether they use expensive "torque sensing" assist, or "throttle" assist.) Why? Because there are a lot of cheap conversion kits out there that use generic components, provide more power/range, are more repairable, and can be bolted on to almost any existing bike. And transferred to a new bike. Etc. These systems would either be made completely illegal or regulated to the highest "class", which, coincidentally, the legislation typically grants agencies, towns, and bike paths the most control over - including outright banning them. Which is a huge change from the status quo, where in many states, cyclist have a specific right to ride on almost any road. Bosch and Shimano have invested megabucks into "mid drive" systems which they've designed all sorts of planned obsolescence features. The most glaring example would be that each company's assist unit mounts to the frame in a very differently shaped space in the frame, so bikes have to be designed for a particular company's system. Even worse, a particular company might have several different tiers of systems (Bosch has 3-4 currently) and each uses a different shaped space in the frame.
- wl 4y ago
  The classes do serve a purpose. Many of these ebikes are essentially electric motorcycles that belong on the road and not on dedicated bicycle infrastructure.
- nradov 4y ago
  Regardless of legal e-bike classes, those cheap conversion kits were never going to go beyond a tiny niche market. The kits are only compatible with a limited set of bikes and most casual cyclists don't have the skill or desire to install one. They just want to buy a bike that works and go ride around. As a practical matter, the laws on e-bike classes are almost never actually enforced in the USA. I see people riding "bikes" which are really more like electric motorcycles on bike paths and no one does anything to stop them. (Park rangers will occasionally ticket e-MTB riders in areas where they're totally banned due to trail damage and safety risks.) The US bike industry doesn't even have "buckets of cash" to spend on lobbying. Total industry annual revenue is only about $6B (a fraction of any of the big tech companies) and profit margins are low. https://www.statista.com/topics/1448/bicycle-industry-in-the-us/ https://www.statista.com/topics/1448/bicycle-industry-in-the...
wjnc 4y ago
If interoperability was marketed as a feature at the moment you bought the product then in my understanding in Europe one could (try to) annul the agreement. Features are an integral part of the buying agreement. That still wouldn't hurt Shimano directly, since the annulment is with the shop. However, with these being 5k+ bikes, dealers would pretty soon start complaining to Shimano.
tbrownaw 4y ago
That sounds like the anti-trust stuff we supposedly already have.

golemotron 4y ago

There is no reason for a bicycle to have a computer. It seems like a simple or innocuous idea but it leads down the path toward "bicycle as a service" and let's be honest - recurring payment models impoverish large segments of the economy.

eimrine 4y ago
Maybe you have got downvotes because you mean some proprietary software, not a computer per se. BTW personably I consider your comment reasonable even in that wording. Computer adds to that mechanical device nothing except of annoying.

abakker 4y ago

I don't know. Maybe if you were concerned about this, the solution isn't to sell your company that depends on access to one company, to their direct and biggest competitor. Hammerhead bears responsibility for not doing things that have their customer's interests at heart.

hughw 4y ago

So counterproductive to their own interest. Don't they recognize I won't buy another Di2 bike if they maintain this policy?

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
Matthias247 4y ago
That’s what I’m wondering too. They don’t really gain a lot from the move. But if let’s say 5% of higher end bike owners have a Karoo computer and would avoid Shimano in the future due to incompatibility, then it seems like a loss in market size to me. It’s also not like Shimano could compensate it by selling their own bike computer - because they don’t have one.
RankingMember 4y ago
Yeah, why would anyone buying a high-end bike go Shimano if they're going to be hamstrung trying to use the (arguably) best computer on the market with it. This behavior reminds me of the "stuck-in-their-ways" description of another Japanese company (Sega of Japan) in the book "Console Wars". They punched their own ticket out of the console sphere and dragged Sega USA (who tried all they could to right the ship but were subservient of course to Sega Japan) with them.

black_13 4y ago

smegsicle 4y ago

so apparently Hammerhead makes a smartwatch-esque handlebar-mounted computer that integrates with Shimano bicycle hardware, but they're having some kind of contract dispute..? not a long article, but the relevant parts seem to be: > At the request of Shimano, [...] software update on June 2nd [...] will remove on-screen battery status and shifter mode data, front and rear derailleur indications, and Karoo screen control via the Di2 hood buttons from Shimano Di2 drivetrains. > Shimano has withdrawn permissions [...] until we are able to forge a new agreement.

mathieuh 4y ago
Yes, but it’s anti-consumer bullshit from Shimano. They are making Hammerhead remove Di2 functionality because Hammerhead was recently bought by SRAM, the other big player in the bicycle component market, who make their own electronic groupsets. It’s like you’ve been using AirPods with your Android phone for ages with no issue, then Google releases some wireless earbuds and Apple decides AirPods no longer work with Android phones at all.
femiagbabiaka 4y ago
Hammerhead makes what’s known as a bicycle computer. The original purpose of a bicycle computer was quite simple, to track stats measured about performance on the bicycle. That’s expanded quite a bit. Now bicycle drivetrains are operated wirelessly rather through cable tension, and bicycle computers can integrate with them as well, through a protocol called ANT+. ANT+ is an open protocol, and most bicycle components and accessories with digital features (think heart rate monitor, computer, smart watch, smart trainer, etc.) nowadays are interoperable between manufacturers because of it. ANT+ however does allow for custom proprietary implementations. Shimano was supposed to be migrating away from their proprietary implementation for their DI2 (electronic shifting) systems, but they haven’t, and are now starting a trend of ostracizing competitors. The likely cause for this is that Hammerhead was just acquired by SRAM, one of the 2 major competitors in the bicycle component business. That move from open protocols to closed protocols used cynically is a pretty big departure and could be disastrous for bicycle riders, we’ve been lucky to have component compatibility across manufacturers as an option for decades. I could probably say more but I’ll stop here for now.

kldavenport 4y ago

Is Shimano doing this because SRAM (a competitor) bought Hammerhead? Makes me skeptical we will ever see Shimano STEPS battery % and mode on the Hammerhead. Hammerhead sells an Android powered bike computer with a great set of features and UX compared to the legacy brands that have dominated the market forever (Garmin, Bryton, Wahoo).

danielovichdk 4y ago
Yes. This. SRAM is the main competition in the bicycle world for Shimano.
- lormayna 4y ago
  On the high end, the main competitor of Shimano is Campagnolo
  - markmark 4y ago
    Not anymore they aren't. SRAM sell far more high end groupsets than Campy these days.
    - Matthias247 4y ago
      Yes - and they are not in the Mountainbike market which is dominated by sram and shimano.
  - prmoustache 4y ago
    Campagnolo is pretty much niche nowadays with a less dense dealer network and few OEM contracts. Look at Campagnolo like Ferrari, only offering select high end items for the road while Shimano is more like Honda offering anything from the little Aygo to the Acura NSX and also offering SUV/trucks. Sram would be more like Mercedes, tackling the mid range to upper end but skipping on the really lowest end.
jeffbee 4y ago
The Wahoo bike computer just came out in 2016! They're hardly Oldsmobile.

Nextgrid 4y ago

Does this go through their cloud or is it local-only? If it uses Shimano online services they have a point, but if it's local between devices that the cyclist had paid for, why should Shimano have any say in it? Shimano are obviously assholes here, but Hammerhead are also disappointing for not standing their ground.

markmark 4y ago
This is local only over a pretty simple communication protocol. Hammerhead had previously licensed that protocol, but Shimano cancelled the contract when Hammerhead were acquired by Shimano's largest competitor. I'm not a lawyer so don't know if they _need_ to have a license for the protocol, but presumably they think they do.
- fabianhjr 4y ago
  > I'm not a lawyer so don't know if they _need_ to have a license for the protocol, but presumably they think they do. They don't but they were probably using a licensed library they no longer have access to and would need to develop their own library first.
  - hgomersall 4y ago
    I wouldn't be surprised if they signed something explicit about not using the protocol without authorisation or something.
- mianos 4y ago
  I have implemented the binary protocol from scratch many years ago. Amusingly, at the time, the data files downloaded from Garmins was pretty much the same protocol but just in a file. If you got a USB Ant+ receiver you got, as I recall, the same protocol from libusb. I guess the problem is, once they have been given the protocol in a document covered by an NDA they can't use it outside that contract, even though they could trivially clean-room it.
  - 4y ago

amanzi 4y ago

This is a much better article that goes to the usual, high level of detail from a DC Rainmaker post: https://www.dcrainmaker.com/2022/05/shimano-forces-hammerhead-to-remove-all-di2-related-functionality-from-karoo.html https://www.dcrainmaker.com/2022/05/shimano-forces-hammerhea...

dang 4y ago
Ok, we changed to that from https://support.hammerhead.io/hc/en-us/articles/360051706614-Hammerhead-Shimano-Di2 https://support.hammerhead.io/hc/en-us/articles/360051706614.... Thanks!
KennyBlanken 4y ago
Folks should be aware that Ray regularly receives highly preferential treatment by Garmin (who own the ANT standard), as well as speaking engagements at their ANT conference. Expect anything that comes out of his mouth to be colored by his desire to not piss off the gods at Garmin. I've been watching him do that dance for years, refusing to acknowledge major bugs people find in various Garmin products that go unaddressed, to not having a peep to say about the absurd levels of market segmentation Garmin goes to. Oh hey, here's him not pointing out that the whole thing is Garmin's fault for allowing vendors to utilize private, secret ANT functions. Instead: > In other words, this is entirely a result of SRAM acquiring Hammerhead earlier this year No. It's the fault of Garmin for creating "private ANT", mainly because they wanted it for their own purposes. See, Wahoo and others were starting to release competing GPS bike computers (and Hammerhead came along as well)...so private ANT let them lock out other bike computer manufacturers from getting advanced power meter stats, controlling their lights, getting alerts from their radar, etc just long enough to force people to buy their overpriced, under-featured, buggy bike computers.
- abm53 4y ago
  Counterpoint: his recent review of the new Garmin Varia was fairly critical.
- piquadrat 4y ago
  Well, he for sure pissed Garmin off with his review of the Garmin RCT715[0] (the bike camera/radar/light thingy). At least in my case, his review stopped me from upgrading from an RTL515. [0]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dyr-KJy-xKo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dyr-KJy-xKo

rektide 4y ago

I struggle to think of a good term for companys that insist on high ecosystem control. The idea of Competitve Compatibility somewhat suggests an alternate path. But just defining these denialist products, that resist their users having any choice- it's a pretty blamket phenomenon & yet lacks a name.

pizza 4y ago
abusive, isolating, controlling, manipulative, etc?
alasdair_ 4y ago
“Apple”
- darkstar999 4y ago
  Tesla chargers.
KennyBlanken 4y ago
Wait until you see what Bosch and Shimano have been up to in the e-bike market. Mid-drive systems from both companies require a specific mount in the frame for them, and of course one system will not mount in a hole made for the other. It's so bad that they've even made the mount specific to a particular product line. Buy a bike with the motor designed for relaxed cruising, and later decide you want the performance assist? Too bad! It won't fit your bike. Wom wom.) You can't diagnose either system without their proprietary software. Bosch's batteries brick themselves if you open them up and attempt to re-cell/repair the battery (third party solutions allow for de-bricking them now.) So when they stop making battery packs for your e-bike, it's a giant paperweight.
- na85 4y ago
  This future sucks.
- justinator 4y ago
  So when they stop making battery packs for your e-bike, it's a giant paperweight. I would assume, just as Mitch Hedberg noted about escalators can never break they just become stairs, an ebike just becomes a "bike" without the battery. In fact, I thought that's one of the selling points?

INTPenis 4y ago

I heard once that Shimano are the only gears you can get for your bike, they have a monopoly on gears. Is this true?

laputan_machine 4y ago
There are plenty of manufacturers making gears. (Cassettes and chainsets) For example mine are by their main competitor: SRAM
abm53 4y ago
No, SRAM and (to a lesser extent) Campagnolo are two other fierce competitors.
- justinator 4y ago
  All three are going to see their profits being swallowed up by competitors like MicroShift on the low end side of things. Making 9 or 10 speed groupsets is not really rocket science anymore. People (like me) that don't want electronic shifting will be flocking to them. All this broken interoperability and forced obsolescence from electronic parts is just too much unless you really need to cosplay as your favorite Euro Pro Tour rider on your lunch breaks.
bytesmith 4y ago
No there are many different manufacturers including SRAM which now owns Hammerhead but Shimano does have about 70% of the marketshare.
- INTPenis 4y ago
  oic. SRAM was not as common here in Europe when I first started bicycletouring though. But I can see they are present on some Swedish webshops now though.
- wl 4y ago
  Many is an overstatement. You only really have SRAM and Campagnolo that are making decent groupsets and of the two, SRAM is the only one that makes MTB groupsets. MicroShift is there at the lower end and is probably best avoided unless it solves a specific problem you have. SunTour isn't doing groupsets anymore. You don't want to bother with the Chinese knockoffs of Shimano.

gavanm 4y ago

The high level issue here is around data ownership, and device ownership. I think the nearest car analogy is ODBII ports and data access - ANT+ is a wireless communication protocol, mostly for reading statistics (I think it can also be used for issuing commands). Hammerhead had a license to access the privately configured Shimano data - and then they were purchased by SRAM (who are Shimano Bike division's main competitor). As a result, Shimano is (for now) limiting a competitors ability to see the data produced by Shimano components. This feels very petty to me - most of the data is essentially going to be "which gear is the front/rear in", and "what shifting pattern do you want to use" - though it might also extend to preventing future interoperability (like preventing competing wireless shifting levers triggering the other manufacturers components) - which would be a loss for consumers.

discreteevent 4y ago
Lack of interoperability in any system is a bad thing for consumers. However in this case you could argue that Shimano are right. It's fine to allow interoperability without the data. A KMC chain will work with a Shimano derailleur. Shimano should have no problem with that. But Shimano have to assume that SRAM would now get all the aggregate data on the operation of thousands of their Di2 systems. So SRAM could see how much faster or slower the Di2 gear shifts are. How many times the user had to make the same shift twice maybe because of failure. If a user tends not to use the largest sprocket when putting in a lot of effort then maybe it means their gears aren't tuned correctly etc. So it's competitive intelligence that SRAM can use to out compete. When Shimano allowed Di2 interoperability their intention was that it would be for the benefit of the consumer, not their direct competitor.
- pmontra 4y ago
  I guess that SRAM can afford to buy a dozen of Shimano gear shifts, put them on a bench and measure any parameter they care even without accessing the software. Real world data could be interesting but are they really so useful?
- MezzoDelCammin 4y ago
  yeah, that used to be true up to 11 speed groupsets. Things are changing however. Take a look into the 12 speeds now. Good luck finding a non-shimano 12 speed chain that works on Shimano derailleurs / chainrings. As for the part about speed and quality info, sorry, but that's "not even wrong". There's absolutely no way You could get this kind of info from Di2 ANT messages. All You have is things like "the gear has changed" and "battery level is now X", not "when" has the user pressed the button or how many microsteps has the derailleur done at which speed. That goes through their own wires (I think it's basically a version of CAN).

richardfey 4y ago

This is not about pettiness: users should be able to opt out of updates that remove functionality. We are still in the prehistoric age of consumer rights for software and it shows. Would you be okay with your dishwasher dropping high temperature washes because the manufacturer decided so? Or a more dystopic example: your fridge actively jamming the wifi of your washing machine because they are from two warring brands

MezzoDelCammin 4y ago
Not sure in the case of Hammerhead (I've got a Wahoo and a Garmin), but mostly You can opt out of updating Your head unit. Problem is, it's an all-or-nothing. By not updating You also lose whatever bugfixes will be coming in the future updates.
- farski 4y ago
  I tend to update my Karoo pretty quickly, but I have never seen any indication that it would force an update, so I think people could stick with last week's version for as long as they want. That being said, this week's update that removed Di2 also added some nice location-based auto lap features, which are way more useful than an icon telling me which gear I'm in, which I already know, so I updated.

pdkl95 4y ago

The solution to this type of intentionally incompatible product is to return to a legal and cultural environment that respects adversarial interoperability[1]. If a company doesn't want to implement the features people want[2], some other company should be able to provide their own (possibly reverse engineered) implementation. Trying to restrict competitors from making interoperable products is admitting you don't want to participate in a well-running competitive market and instead deserve monopoly power. [1] https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2019/10/adversarial-interoperability https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2019/10/adversarial-interopera... [2] including features like interoperability with a competitor's product.

maxerickson 4y ago
There isn't necessarily a limitation on reverse engineering, they just can't use the information they had under contract anymore. Weak sauce that they didn't attach the licensing to the devices though.
- bradfa 4y ago
  It was kind of a brilliant move by Shimano, in retrospect. Since Shimano did share with them how to do everything, it makes it much harder to now go and implement those features after the contract has been invalidated. Seems like a good time for SRAM to realize they should open up info on how to let others create apps for the Hammerhead devices to let indy devs figure out how to reverse engineer Shimano's system.
hprotagonist 4y ago
there’s a certain irony in proposing this as regards bicycle components, specifically.
- arbitrage 4y ago
  not sure i see where the irony is. can you clarify?
  - 4y ago

i5heu 4y ago

I almost bought today a Shimano DriveTrain. Very much thank you to Post this here. I will switch now to another producer. No money for customer hating companies.

coisnepe 4y ago
I have a SRAM eTap groupset on my roadbike and really enjoy it. The batteries are super convenient, I only charge them "defensively" once in a while and have never actually run out on a ride. If I had, I could have swapped the one of the front derailleur, which is significantly less used, with that of the back derailleur, and ride another few hundred (thousand?) kilometers. You could even carry an extra battery just in case. From what I understand, to charge Di2 you need to fully stop and couldn't even charge with a portable battery while moving, but I could be wrong. Seems like SRAM isn't as feature-rich, but is more straightforward and reliable.

black_puppydog 4y ago

Apart from sharing the opinion here that this is a customer hostile move... I'm pretty happy that my bikes (MTB and Road) have zero electric components (not even light if I don't strap it on) and I want to keep it that way. I have yet so see an electric part that I need or that even just provides me with enough benefit that it's worth the hassle of freakin' firware updates. Much less having a CAN bus on my bike? is this only for electric bikes or also for gears? I'm confused... Anyhow, I always thought that running a bike repair shop might be my plan B for when I finally get fed up with computers, but I recently realized bikes are now computers with wheels, just like cars and fridges and toasters and door bells... So I'm looking for a new plan B. FWIW, just as with fridges and toasters, I think this is a move in the wrong direction. It increases CO2/pollution footprint and reduces lifetime. And as we see here, it opens you up to a whole new class of customer abuse.

cyberpanther 4y ago
Built my last road bike from the ground up and I would say electronic shifting is my favorite part. Its more precise and easier to maintain than cable shifting. All this compatibility warring sucks of course. But there's tons of merit to going digital on certain bike parts.
- artdigital 4y ago
  Ultegra? I sadly bought a bike just before Ultegra switched to electronic shifting, so mine is just barely the model before. It looks very interesting though, maybe one day...
- mikeryan 4y ago
  I was just going to say this except on my mountain bike. Just put AXS wireless shifter on there and was surprised at how nice it made the shifting. I barely ever charge it and have an extra battery that travels with my mountain bike “box o crap” just in case.
xattt 4y ago
Re: lights on bikes. Dynamos and dynamo hubs thankfully remain constrained by physics, so they will remain interoperable with a number of brands for a long time. I highly recommend anyone that uses a bicycle for any meaningful amount as part of their day-to-day routine to get a dynamo hub and a light. You will save your sanity with battery replacements.

talove 4y ago

I am affected by this. I own 4 bikes, all with electronic shifting and 3 hammerhead computers. This isn't just losing nice-to-have features, many of these features are for safety. One example, the thumb toggles on the Di2 shifters allow me to change screens on my computer without removing my hands from the hoods / grips. They is now disabled. If you are descending at 40-50mph you have to remove your hand from your hood in order to see your map. This might seem minor but the point is that cycling is already super dangerous. The tech is there for safety as much as anything else. I find this incredibly anti-cyclist and anti-consumer.

elbigbad 4y ago
In what seems like a lucky break, I also have a Karoo, used these same features, and moved from di2 to campagnolo electric last summer.
jfengel 4y ago
I take your point, but there is no way on God's green earth that I am going to look at a map for even an instant while descending that fast. My eyes are locked on the ground scanning for the tiniest crack or piece of junk that would send me to my doom. I can't imagine going any direction except straight at that speed.
- deebosong 4y ago
  Can I echo this sentiment? I also understand the frustration of losing key features... But yeah, I don't wanna be near anyone peepin down on their map while blasting down a descent at 40-50 mph lol. You better be laser focused on everything in your peripheral and immediate field of view, and look at all the data/ metrics/ navigation after the fact.
  - karamanolev 4y ago
    It's not for everyone, it's dangerous and it should be done carefully and skillfully, but... I cycle 300+ miles per week. 1 or 2 100mi rides a week. Descending at 40mph and checking the map, assuming it's already on the computer, is not a problem. If the road in front of you is empty, it's not hugely different than being in a car. Actually, in a car, you might be going 60 in the same place. Are you telling me you never check where to go going 60? I'd say that doing 25mph in a peloton (or your friendly neighborhood group ride) when riding 8in from the person in front and checking your map is more dangerous than going 40 on an open road with plenty of room, but I can tell you, everyone checks their bike computers on group rides. I'm curious to know if the people saying "oh laser focus on the road never look at your Garmin" are road cyclists having frequently ridden in fast group rides.

ubermonkey 4y ago

It's a super gross, super hostile move. For those that don't click through, the real f-you aspect here is that until recently Shimano's own site bragged of its compatibility with Hammerhead, so presumably people bought Di2 equipped bikes based on that promise -- and now have had it jerked back. I'm not affected -- my bikes run SRAM -- but if I were a Shimano user, I'd be pretty damn angry. It's a petty, smallminded move.

yesdocs 4y ago

This gets my vote for the most ridiculous headline on HN. Complete word salad with very little meaning

h4waii 4y ago
Even if you're "in to" bikes, it's almost unintelligible aside from knowing Shimano is a brand. I back this sentiment.
- PaulDavisThe1st 4y ago
  You only have to know that Di2 is Shimano's electronic shifting to be able to guess what this is about. Compare with, currently on the front page: "Comparing Ceph, Linstor, Mayastor and Vitastor Storage Performance in Kubernetes"
- cheeze 4y ago
  If you're into (road) bikes, you probably know Shimano, Hammerhead, and you definitely would know what Di2 is.

wly_cdgr 4y ago

I had absolutely no idea what this was about for the first 5 paragraphs or so. Thought it might be robot vacuums

PaulDavisThe1st 4y ago

More than 35 years ago, I started saying "Friends Don't Let Friends Ride Shimano". Although it was somewhat tongue in cheek, it was actually supposed to be true. Nothing in that time has made that seem like less useful advice, and quite a bit has happened (including this news) that makes it seem even more apropros than before.

taude 4y ago
I have a 12 year old Shimano Ultegra groupo that has needed very little upkeep and has a lot of miles on it. My newer shimano out performs my newer SRAM on my mountain bikes. Was Shimano new to the cycling industry 35 years ago, maybe they were bad then? I'm sure that was a glory day when Campi was the gold standard or something (I hear this from the old timers). I wish my newer SRAM stuff was as durable as my Shimano, because it was less expensive.... I'm even now waiting longer for a new road bike just so I can get shimano on it, rather than having SRAM on it and be delivered maybe next month....
- PaulDavisThe1st 4y ago
  It's not so much the tech (though I'd argue it has never been as good as Campagnolo) and more the behavior of the corporation over the years. BTW, at least for road bikes, Campgnolo is still the gold standard, and not just because you need a lot of gold to own it.
  - taude 4y ago
    Haa...funny, I only ever heard of Campi as more Itaian stuff that breaks a lot. Even my hard-core buddies who were Campi fans, have gone away from it on their bikes. I know there's a sexy appeal to it. I might have to look at it sometime when I have more disposable income.
    - caycep 4y ago
      You have to find a network of campy dealers, but then it's fine. They engineer the entry level groups to have the same feel as the higher end, and the cheaper stuff might be more reliable because they don't use as much exotic lightweight materials. But I think you can get Veloce at around the same price as 105, Chorus is in between ultegra/dura-ace prices. Overall, my experience is that Campy reliability is really good...just you have to know how to tune cable tension and use the right torque settings. And you can (or were able to) rebuild stuff easier than SRAM/Shimano. There's some give and take, of course - Shimano's cranks are known to have a delamination failure, but Super Record' front derailleurs are known to be a bit finicky, etc etc etc. But things have been so thoroughly bug tested over the past 4 decades it's really splitting hairs.

asdff 4y ago

Shimano is notoriously anti consumer. I use 2x8 speed brifters. They actually work better than modern ones imo, because you can go into any gear from either front cog with no issue (supposedly this is a no no on larger gearsets). However, the rubber hoods are wearing apart because they are 20 years old, shimano stopped selling the parts, and no one makes a third party replacement. People on forums resort to buying new brifters and casting aside these perfectly good 2x8s that just have some worn rubber on them. I am getting by with some wraps of tape but its certainly not pretty looking.

giobox 4y ago
> They actually work better than modern ones imo, because you can go into any gear from either front cog with no issue You can do this on the latest modern stuff too, what you are describing is often called "cross-chaining". Cross chaining has generally always worked, it's just not recomended as puts undue wear on the chain and gears, coupled with the fact gear ratios on bikes overlap so much you will get the same or similar pedal effort from the cog with less cross-chain. Cross-chaining usually isn't recommended on a 2x8 speed road groupset either but like everything bike maintenance opinions vary. > https://wickwerks.com/support/crosschaining https://wickwerks.com/support/crosschaining
skeeter2020 4y ago
not sure how this is anti consumer? Shimano hasn't pushed these for years (decades?) and they're allowed to stop manufacturing parts eventually.
- asdff 4y ago
  By making every single brifter they release have a different hood. Look it up, there are like dozens they've made, the part numbers are dizzying. Compare this to older style road bikes before the brifter era, where the rubber hood was pretty much standardized across most bikes, and because of that to this day you can still buy new hoods for that older style of bike. But not mine made just a decade after that era, because mine is from the "new hood design every few years" era of forced obsolescence. It's a hood. How different does it even need to be year to year?

CalChris 4y ago

DCRainMaker was pretty successful with the Strava kerfuffle where Strava had abruptly ended 3rd party data sync to Apple Health https://www.dcrainmaker.com/2022/03/strava-abruptly-ends-3rd-party-data-push-to-apple-health.html https://www.dcrainmaker.com/2022/03/strava-abruptly-ends-3rd... and then eventually backed down https://www.dcrainmaker.com/2022/03/strava-reverses-course-turns-back-on-apple-health-sync-functionality.html https://www.dcrainmaker.com/2022/03/strava-reverses-course-t... He rightfully has a lot of sway and hopefully Shimano will see his light.

aenis 4y ago
Shimano is a Japanese company. They would be surprised to hear anyone outside the company is expected to have any sway over their policies. It's sad they turned to anti-consumer behaviour, as their hardware is top notch. But luckily, there is good competition and one can vote with their wallet.

ClumsyPilot 4y ago

So how does this work legally - I bought a product with functionality X, and later the manufacturer can remove that functionality from me? What if that's the one and only functionality that I need - are they going to compensate me? Aren't they revising contract of sale after the money is paid? Could the manufacturer start charging me subsribtion for some functionality that was previously 'included'? What are the limits to how much could be taken back from me after I paid money for the goods? If I bought a car, and the manufacturer updated it to require a separate subscribtion for driving in each state, would that actually be illegal?