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Down the mechanical keyboard rabbit hole
- bbarn 5y agoWhen I moved to Europe, companies starting giving me EU (In my case either danish or icelandic) laptops, and I can barely function without plugging in my US keyboard. I've found it so much easier just to learn key sequences to input the few special characters and stick to what I'm otherwise used to for the last 30 years I've been typing. I know some of it is just that - what you're used to - but I have several native colleagues that have switched to US layouts for coding as well. As for small keyboards, that's the old man in me I guess. At some point in my youth either with Turbo Pascal or word perfect, I got used to Ctrl-Insert to copy, Shift-delete to cut, Shift-Insert to paste. Not only that Home/End/Page up/Page down are some of my most commonly used keys writing code. Number pads are nice but I would take a serious hit without my nav keys.
- andi999 5y agoI think for C programming non US keyboards are bad. When starting on such a board, I was thinking who ever thought that typing { is simpler than 'begin' must have been delusional.
- ihateolives 5y agoAlso Vim. That's why I give up on Vim every time I try to use it for some time. It's just not ergonomic with non-US layout.
- thomastjeffery 5y agoVim's greatest weakness is that the default keyboards are so intricately tied to its design. I would really like a modal editor with a more customizable "normal mode" layout.
- andi999 5y agoDo you have an example for that?
- thomastjeffery 5y agoVim's normal mode keybindings all correspond to a function/command of the same name. For example, i enters insert mode, dd deletes a line, f moves forward a char, etc. You can record a macro by pressing q followed by another key, followed by any string of keystrokes, and ended by pressing q again. So qbxxxq would save a macro to the b register that deletes three characters. You play it back with @b. The neat thing is that macros are recorded in plain text, so pressing "bp would print the contents of the b register (xxx). You can even write out the keystrokes of a new macro, then yank (copy) that text into a register with y"b (for the b register), and pay it back like normal (by pressing @b). Anyway, the trouble with this ingenious system is that x isn't just the delete key, it's the delete function. You can map another key to do the x function; but at the end of the day, there's no getting away from the original function names, and therefore no way to get away from the original keybindings. I've tried remapping keys in vim, and I always end up with an unusable mess, because I have to remap every key or lose access to functionality, and remapping some functions isn't as easy as you might expect. I would rather, as a user, start from the ground up and define my own normal mode bindings, with regular function names like delete-char() or whatever.
- thomastjeffery 5y agoEDIT: I typed "default keyboards" where I meant "default keybindings". It's too late for me to edit the comment.
- andi999 5y agoThanks! I didnt see it when I tried vim and gave up as well.
- MrYellowP 5y agoThis is, to the point, why I don't like languages using curly braces.
- suction 5y agoI'm German and have never set foot in the US - but I've always used US layout keyboards for coding since I first discovered how much programming language syntax is tied to US keyboard layouts (because most modern widespread languages were invented in the US I guess, quotation needed). The main reason is the easy access to brackets, slashes, quotation marks, etc. compared to non-US keyboards where most of those are only accessible via key combinations, and really awkward ones as well. I believe in this so much that I automatically assume any German software developer not wanting to use a US layout keyboard for his daily work is not working efficiently or not deep enough into it.
- em500 5y agoSame here, never lived in the US, always preferred the US keyboard layout. Fortunately, here in the Netherlands the majority of keyboards are US layout by default. Biggest exceptions in my experience are - ThinkPads, which seem to divided between US and UK layout here - Apple, which supplies the ISO layout (shortened left-shift, thin vertical Enter) by default, but thankfully has started to offer US as an option on their web store since a few years - Logitech which only sells ISO layouts in Europe, and all US layout seem to come from private import
- keybored 5y ago> I believe in this so much that I automatically assume any German software developer not wanting to use a US layout keyboard for his daily work is not working efficiently or not deep enough into it. Is that fair? I’m not a German but from another N. European country. I have made my own keyboard config which I use for everything. But I also have a keybind to switch to a normal (or our own local layout) when somebody else is about to use my computer. So if I don’t forget to use it it would seem like I just use the regular keyboard layout. My own config evolved like this: first I had two layouts for my own language and English/programming, respectively. But switching layouts became a pain in the neck in my latest local job where we chat in our own language, code in English, of course chat in English with our foreign consultants... so I had to make my keyboard config work with all three (native lang/English/programming). I’ve never tried to get used to the US layout but I would have to use the same layout switching approach since the US layout (even the international one) wouldn’t work well enough with my native language. Can’t say that I appreciate this kind of judgement. What do you know about people’s personal setups? Well, unless they out of resentment just decide to explain like I just did. :)
- Bayart 5y agoI'm French and I take my US layout keyboard everywhere I think I might type. All software engineering tooling is just meant for it. It's a harsh lesson I've learned through the torture of using Emacs with a French layout.
- Oddskar 5y agoUS layout is definitely better than most EU layouts. It is still terrible compared to a custom setup however. So many bad contortions the fingers have to do compared to just having a sensible symbol-layer.
- sime2009 5y agoI'm in the Netherlands and I've rarely see a developer use anything other than US ANSI layout on a laptop. Consumer level stuff often defaults to US ANSI, but there is a bit of US/english ISO layout going around too. A Dutch keyboard layout is a thing, but I've never seen one, just heard of some writers/editors using it.
- Casteil 5y agoI've tried a few different different mechanical keyboards over the years, and I keep ending up back on my trusty old Corsair K70 w/ mx brown switches. 6+ years and still going strong. Mechanical keyboards are nice, but try not to fall into the consumerist trap of throwing away hundreds if not thousands of dollars chasing keyboard perfection.
- kohlerm 5y agoIt is the normal way to go. First mechanical, then columnar staggered (split) with at least 60% of the "normal" keys. Then towards 40% split boards :-)
- norman784 5y agoMy experience with mechanical keyboards is that after 3 years of using one (Anne Pro 2), I still hit the wrong keys so often, last week I switched again to my good old magic keyboard (the one that uses AAA batteries, is almost 10 years old) and I can relate that my muscle memory is so fixed with this keyboard. But still like the mechanical keyboards, maybe I need to try one with lower profile.
- imperistan 5y agoI just started going down this rabbit hole myself after seeing a video of the Dactyl Manuform split keyboard. I'm thinking about getting one now. Is there someone on HN who works fulltime on a split keyboard? How does that work out for you? I suspect the Dactyl is very comfy but i'm not sure if that still is the case if you use it full time. The Iris looks great too. So if you have experience with that I would love to hear it too.
- meepmorp 5y agoI use a Moonlander full time and I like it a lot. The split layout has more or less completely eliminated the shoulder pain, which for me was caused by sleep injuries (I am an unconscious contortionist) and hunching my shoulders to get my wrists into a comfortable position. There was definitely an adjustment period, but it was completely worth it for me.
- halfdan 5y agoI switched to the Kinesis Advantage 2 about 9 months ago (https://geekmonkey.org/learning-to-type-dvorak/ https://geekmonkey.org/learning-to-type-dvorak/) and couldn't be happier. It takes quite a while to rewire the brain (at least it did for me) but I feel a lot more confident and a tad bit faster than I was before I switched.
- rbanffy 5y agoI really like the Microsoft natural ones, but they aren’t really split - just arranged in a way that helps wrists. I have a couple other mechanical ones, but all monolithic US QWERTY. My favourite among these is a Unicomp buckling spring behemoth with 122 keys, but it is the antithesis of these smaller mechanicals.
- Symbiote 5y agoI used a normal (Logitech/Microsoft) split keyboard since university, since I was scared when a student a couple of years older than me got RSI and couldn't type for weeks. These wore out about 2 years ago, and I couldn't find a similar replacement. I bought an ErgoDash [1] instead. It has a few additional keys compared to the Iris. I have one at work and another at home, and to make them more similar to the broken keyboards I 3D printed angled bases. I use them for 99% of my typing. I should probably have tried a Kinesis Advantage 2 first, but it seemed like too much of a jump. I'm partway through 3D printing/assembling a Lagrange keyboard [2], which is similar to the Dactyl. I will add the F1-F12 keys to my print, as they're the only thing I miss on my ErgoDash -- if a shortcut in my IDE is Ctrl+Shift+F10, it's nice for it to be that, not Ctrl+Shift+Fn+0. I made [3] to help others see what's available. [1] https://github.com/omkbd/ErgoDash/ https://github.com/omkbd/ErgoDash/ [2] https://github.com/dpapavas/lagrange-keyboard https://github.com/dpapavas/lagrange-keyboard [3] https://aposymbiont.github.io/split-keyboards/ https://aposymbiont.github.io/split-keyboards/
- j7ake 5y agoI find the height of mechanical keyboards too high (ie they are much thicker than apple keyboards) and it causes strain on my shoulders. I am much more relaxed typing on a thin keyboard like the Apple ones.
- yewenjie 5y agoYou might be interested in the low-profile gang of keyboards such as the Sweep or Gergoplex.
- mkdirp 5y agoI've been looking for a mechanical keyboard with a bunch of requirements, and never wanted to build my own, at least not yet. My requirements were loads but yesterday upon restarting my research yet again, I came across the Keychron K3, which meets all my requirements (wireless, 75%, plenty of other requirements), but what really got me was the slim profile compared to other mechanical keyboards. It wasn't even a requirement for me but when I saw it, and the reviews, I just had to have it. I've ordered it literally about 20 mins ago so it should be here in the next couple of days. I'm looking forward to it and hope it's as good as the reviews say it is.
- sime2009 5y ago==> https://www.keychron.com/pages/keychron-k3-wireless-mechanical-keyboard https://www.keychron.com/pages/keychron-k3-wireless-mechanic...
- d4rkp4ttern 5y agoThis is my experience as well. Another under-discussed point: relative to a MacBook like keyboard, mechanical keyboards help in one way, but introduce a huge problem: the mouse. After using several mechanical keyboards (including Keychron 3) with a an ultra wide monitor setup, I recently just happened to switch back to using my 2021 MacBook Pro, and the trackpad was an absolute relief to my shoulders. The fact that that you can move and click with both your thumbs is a big plus. If there is a setup that nicely combines the best of both worlds ( Mech keyboard plus trackpad nicely placed) I would love to hear of it.
- m2mdas2 5y agoSomeone should write article about "down the vim/emacs configuration rabbit hole" also :)
- cehrlich 5y agoMechanical keyboards don’t have to be a rabbit hole. Just get something in a normal layout with brown switches (or silenced if you need that) and call it a day. I got a Keychron because they have Mac function keys, it was less than $100 and feels way better than the short key travel Magic Keyboard. I have no desire to upgrade.
- danjessen 5y agoYou've just entered the rabbit hole. Keychron is a toptier OEM. But far from what a custom can be and is
- joaodlf 5y agoBrown switches? MX Brown switches? Might as well not even put "rabbit hole" in that sentence... I kid, I kid, it's all down to preference... That said, you can get yourself a single mechanical keyboard and call it a day, until one day you try a different board/layout with different switches. Maybe at your friends house, or at a shop, or more than likely: at work. You'll be forever wondering "I liked that...". Keyboards really are a special tool for us. I've spent considerable amount of time and money on them, and I consider myself fairly frugal (well, in non keyboard related matters). All to say, it's very easy to fall into this rabbit hole, especially when you spend so much time working with these things...
- cehrlich 5y agoI did actually "upgrade" my Keychron to Boba U4 switches (a popular choice for silent switches) because my family found the noise that the Browns make annoying. But to be honest in terms of typing experience the Browns that came with the keyboard (Gateron, which I believe are a cheaper replica of the Cherrys?) were totally fine to me and the Bobas are as well. Sometimes being a simpleton has upsides :)
- vifon 5y ago> my family found the noise that the Browns make annoying That's why you start with Blue and only when they complain you switch to Brown. ;)
- michidk 5y agoSo I am using my Ergodox EZ (have to upgrade to moonlander at some point) for three years now. I also first learned Colemak and then Halmak and am now as happy as I ever could be with my keyboard setup.
- msackmann 5y agoHaving accustomed to using a Thinkpad Trackpoint, I am always struggling with separate keyboard and mouses. I mean, I rarely use the mouse, but cannot completely ditch it. The ergonomics of a split keyboard is very appealing. For the last months, I’ve simply used two thinkpad trackpoint usb keyboards as a cheap but working substitute :-D
- bodge5000 5y agoThe Tex Yoda II might be of interest, its just a small mechboard with a trackpoint and of course mouse buttons. Even more so, maybe the (also Tex) Kodachi or Shinobi, which are basically just thinkpad keyboards but mechanical
- argella 5y agohttps://ultimatehackingkeyboard.com/ https://ultimatehackingkeyboard.com/ Trackpoint under the thumb. Would have been better embedded between keys for your index finger like a thinkpad.
- msackmann 5y agoGreat, thanks, I wasn’t aware of that!
- bmodotdev 5y agoWith all the fancy keyboards and custom firmwares today, how come none have a built in 2FA/FIDO/U2F key?
- xcambar 5y agoI have tried and decided to ignore mechanical keyboards and custom layouts altogether. Why? * I do not have (yet?) any pain or trauma in hand or wrist * I type 50%-50% on the laptop's keyboard or a desktop, and my brains can't seem to work properly with 2 different typing experiences... So I decided that I should stay basic, cheap and subopmtimal.
- maxekman 5y agoI would guess that the single biggest ergonomical win comes from a split keyboard, where the hands are no longer angled outward. Any other feature (staggering, thumb keys, bowled wells etc) would give further, but much smaller, improvements. At least this is me experience after 4-5yrs of Kinesis Advantage.
- hbn 5y agoI never got super into mechanical keyboards, but I've used them for my PC for the last decade or so just cause they're fun to type on. But out of curiosity, I tested my typing speed on my mechanical keyboard vs my Apple Magic Keyboard (where I do most of my programming, being that I use a Mac for my job), and I got about an extra 10wpm on the Apple one (~90wpm vs ~100wpm). I think it's the low travel that helps my speed.
- sirfrankiecrisp 5y agoI am using a Kinesis Adv 2 and have just switched to Colemak DH myself. It's really hard to rewire your brain ti type on it, but after a week now I'm starting to get faster. One thing that I still haven't quite figured out is Vim... How do people use Vim with an alternative layout? do you keep the same keybindings and just deal with it(hjkl are not nicely in line for example) or do you remap each action to the physical location it would be on a qwerty keyboard (i.e. navigating with mnei for example)?
- lycopodiopsida 5y agoThe general advise is to leave it as it is. You should not over-rely on hjkl-navigation too much anyway, and at least for colemak-dh they are concentrated on the edge of the left half, which is acceptable.
- xlii 5y agoThis is a rabbit hole that I spent considerate amount of time and money and I’d like to warn some of those who are interested into going in. > Professional musicians don’t play on crappy equipment, right? ;-) With this article sentence I wholeheartedly stand. It’s important to know and optimize tools you’re using most of waking time. Keyboard promises improvement both health and performance wise. Same with layout. Yet both unorthodox keyboards and layouts are considerate investments. Even more so if they are customizable. And it might be possible that they’ll never pay off. I had situations that match common theme: I’m heavily focused on a problem. I’m coding away and that at some point I stumble and fall. I can’t remember combination for some shortcut I’ve been using in ages. Instead of working furiously on the problem I’m solving “where is the key” problem now. The other situation is the stressful one. I found out that under situations that stress me I forgot complex customizations. Keyboard layouts? They don’t work. This get amplified if you have multiple keyboards to work with. I’ve used Dvorak for more then a year - didn’t stick. Split keyboards with standard layout - same. Non orthodox keyboards - even after more than year of using it didn’t work. For keyboard.io I went so far that I got multiple ones to try to avoid “switch fatigue” and ended giving them out. Right now I’m using standard full size low key keyboard with numpad and additional F-keys for bindings. It works, has low latency (latency IS an issue with many keyboards), my hands don’t get tired because there is almost non pressure required (and I type a lot while getting older every day) and that’s the best keyboard I have. Right now I’m considering actually getting rid of tenkeyless keyboard for my gaming pc because lack of keys and all those combos to get to F-s just annoys me when I want to script something. It simply puts a problem in front of me that I didn’t intend to solve. Craftsman has to care for their tools. I agree. But choosing battles is important too.
- awelxtr 5y ago> Craftsman has to care for their tools. I agree. Except for the part that programmers spend far more time reading than writing. An ajustable monitor and a good chair payoff way more than an expensive keyboard. I still don't get the keyboard hype.
- xmaayy 5y agoIt depends a lot on where you work I've found. I recently had the chance to experience a team where they were given the full implementation logic by a product team, and your job was to turn it from business logic to code almost 1:1. I spent nearly all my time writing and testing, which was an interesting change.
- cstrat 5y agoWonder why they didn't try the Planck from ZSA. I use it as my daily driver. It did take about a month to get used to, but now I am just as fast at typing as previously - and my fingers are moving much, much less. I still get wrist strain because the angle of my hands which the Moonlander would have fixed... however I heard a big issue with the Moonlander is you need to always look at your hands before you begin to type - because you cant take your hand away to use the mouse and find that keyboard half again
- vulcan01 5y ago> you cant take your hand away to use the mouse and find that keyboard half again I used to have this issue. Then I realized that if you tilt the Moonlander, there's a gap between the thumb cluster and the rest of the keyboard. Locating the half of the keyboard is a matter of just moving your hand towards the keys until your thumb slides into that gap. (It sounds complicated but in reality it isn't.)
- Labo333 5y agoJust sharing my personal experience there. During isolation I bought my first mechanical keyboard (a cheap Qisan Magicforce 68, that I wholeheartly recommend). I quickly learned to use it and still love it at home. A few months ago I bought a kinesis advantage for my office. I'm fully used to it (although it took me a while to stop hitting wrong keys). When I bought both keyboards, I already knew how to touch type and went back to typeracer, keybr and monkeytype. My speed did not increase that much and I still get my fastest speeds on my macbook pro integrated keyboard. The main reason why I use an external keyboard is to solve my back problems, by using a stand or an external screen. In particular, I get my slowest typing speeds on my kinesis advantage. It is NOT built for speed, it is built for comfort. It allowed me to improve my posture considerably so it's still worth it. PS: in my experience, using a laptop stand / external monitor helps with the lower back problems (weirdly). I solved my upper back problems by doing more exercise, and it's as easy as having some elastic bands near my desk and trying to stretch them horizontally behind my neck a few minutes a day (when I'm reading a long email or pdf or thinking or need a break). PS2: a must-have on macOS is karabiner. I use it to have nicer keybindings for french accents (modifier keys like `) but also to configure function keys on my kinesis advantage and put navigation shortcuts on my mouse (logitech G502).
- fowlie 5y agoKarabiner looks awesome, thanks for the tip!
- gigaflop 5y agoI second the Magicforce! Linear switches (Red or Black) are probably best for it, but it's a nice balance of cheap, sturdy-enough, portable-enough and compact-enough. It has little in the way of layout customization (3 position DIP switch on the back of mine), but that's just fine for a first board. It also has a mostly-standard layout, so if you wanted to get aftermarket keycaps, you don't need to sweat too much about compatibility or odd sizes.
- Eji1700 5y agoThere's a few big upsides to going down this rabbit hole imo- 1. Realizing how much dead space there is on a normal keyboard (capslock, the space bar doesn't need to be so big, many keys you might want to use frequently are in awkward spots, like the numbers). 2. Being able to fully customize the layout to your liking. I don't think anyone agrees 100% on what the ideal layout is, but once you get more comfortable with layers and testing various layouts it gets pretty easy to adjust. 3. Finding out how quickly you can adapt to multiple layouts by just sticking with it. You won't be perfect the first time, and you might struggle to briefly when you switch back to a normal board, but people vastly underestimate how good humans are at adaptation. There's also a bonus level of just having nice keys/switches. While this is the part that can get pricey, as someone who's typing all the time it really does feel like a worthy expense. The major downsides being that it can get expensive fast (at least if you're picky), you might need some level of soldering skill, and there are times where you DON'T want to be the person with the fancy keyboard that no one else can use (I always have a normal one plugged in at work just in case). Still i'm super glad I got into it. I'm a huge fan of 40% boards just because of the portability and the space they save. I'm typing all this, on a mercutio and my work daily driver is a low profile crkbd (I do analytics and some low end/intermediate coding). The only issue i've ever run into is that I'm a fan of roguelikes, and while most games don't need too many keys, those in particular seem to have this habit of the designer trying to use EVERY key on a full sized keyboard, so i'm working on a layer for that.
- JKCalhoun 5y ago> capslock, the space bar doesn't need to be so big... Why Capslock at all? I don't think in two decades I have ever hit that key ... on purpose.
- ek750 5y agoI'm curious, I hear this alot, but when I'm coding, whenever I need to type out constants, they're in ALL-CAPS. Do you remap caps-lock to an unused spot, or do you hold down shift while typing? I'm usually in vim or equivalent most of the time, FWIW.
- gyulai 5y agoI did have a phase where I was using US layout over German, because I do agree that US layout is just more suitable for programming. But training my muscle memory that way turned out to be more of a pain than a gain. As a freelancer, I'm frequently in a situation where I'm forced to use a laptop that a client has provided, with a German layout. Oftentimes I will not have an external keyboard on hand, like I'm in a meeting room and didn't want to bring one, or I'm on a plane or train. In order to make that work, you'd need to be a pretty disciplined typist who doesn't rely on the labels on the keys at all so as not to be confused by them when they're in a different layout. Back in those days, there were also many edge cases, like the login screen etc., where you couldn't customize your layout away from some default that the client has configured. Also: Most of the pain comes from curly braces. So when you're doing Python & Nim you're mostly okay using a European layout. I also think it's probably not a coincidence that the people behind those languages are Europeans, Guido van Rossum and Andreas Rumpf.
- newaccount74 5y agoI also switched to a US layout from German layout. It took me a while to get used to typing Umlauts (on a Mac, you type option-u followed by a/o/u to get ä/ü/ö), but after a few months it became very natural. My home computer is in the living room shared with my family, it still has a German layout, so I switch between US and German pretty often. I can type on both keyboards fluently. Somehow my brain knows that the computers have different keyboard layouts. The only thing that still confuses me is a cheap backup keyboard that I have (when bluetooth doesn't work), which has a UK layout....
- wink 5y agoI guess I'm one of the odd people who have their work machines (and linux laptops( on US Intl and main machine at home on de-qwertz - so I change once per day (on a work day, and when I am using mine at home that evening). It mostly works, I'm absolutely trained to expect qwerty, but my keyboard at home (G710+) tells my muscle memory to start typing with a German layout now. I've not had to use any clients' laptops for many years but I could see the problem, I have it when someone hands me a ThinkPad with German layout for example, but I'm willing to tolerate to type garbage once a month in exchange for being able to work with the layout I actually prefer.
- drakonka 5y agoReally cool (and expensive) rabbit hole. My first mechanical keyboard was a Razer Blackwidow with Cherry MX Blue switches. Next, I bought a blank-key Das with Cherry MX Brown. Since then I've used an Input Club K-Type, a Tesoro Durandal, and some Logitech keyboard with MX Reds. I actually really liked the MX Reds, way more than I thought I would. So when I ordered the Ultimate Hacking Keyboard it was with Box Reds. I also still have an Input Club Nightfox waiting to be assembled in my closet - it's been there for years. I should probably just sell it at this point. In regards to layouts, I too prefer US layout for coding. But I live in a European country with special characters and have gotten used to using that layout. The UHK, however, will come with a US layout and I'll map the special characters to alternative keys. I hadn't delved much into special key mappings on my boards yet, so that'll be interesting. I got it with the trackball module in hopes of never needing to use a mouse again.
- gigaflop 5y agoThe Nightfox was one of the first full-on build-it-yourself keyboards I drooled over, but they were already a limited-availability item at that time, and haven't been in production for years. A relic of the past, as it were: https://kono.store/products/nightfox-mechanical-keyboard https://kono.store/products/nightfox-mechanical-keyboard At minimum, you should easily be able to get MSRP for a sealed kit. If I wasn't stretched for fun-money and display shelf space, I'd make an initial offer of $150 if it was sealed, or at least new-in-box with all the pieces. If it's the True Fox (split backspace) layout, I'll kick myself extra hard in a few years for not buying it anyways. Aesthetically, it's still very pretty, and if you have your own keyboard shelf, it may be nice to at least assemble and display it. If you fancy yourself the tinkering type, design files for the board and case are available: https://github.com/kiibohd https://github.com/kiibohd
- drakonka 5y agoOh yeah it's sealed, in the sense that all the caps are in their original sealed plastic packaging in the dark gray case. The original plastic packaging on the PCB and back-plate itself is not sealed, but I don't _think_ it ever was. To be honest I'm not sure if it is the True Fox layout or not. I think that was what I ordered when backing it, but not 100% sure how to tell - the kit contains both a regular backspace and the split backspace key. I did drool over this board as well and then just never built it, and I think mostly I liked the _idea_ and beauty of it rather than the thought of using it itself (and now having ordered the UHK I doubt I'll ever really get around to building it). I might keep it around a bit longer for nostalgia reasons, but I know I need to learn to let go of these kinds of things at some point.
- hughrr 5y agoBeen down this one: spent a large amount of money, annoyed my family with clicky keys, ended up with sore wrists, left it. Now using an Apple magic keyboard. It’s quiet, doesn’t make me hurt, actually has all the keys I need and doesn’t piss anyone off.
- Narann 5y agoInteresting. I switched to Apple chicklet keyboard because I thought is would resolve sore wrists I had with membrane keyboard. Then I switched to mechanical keyboard because the sore wrists was even worse with Apple flat keyboard. Same path for few of my mates. I didn't spend that much because I don't care about aesthetic (iKBC 60 MX Brown for work and DIY 60 Kailh white with QMK for home), never went back.
- vladvasiliu 5y agoDon't you get sore wrists with the Apple Keyboard? Many years ago I used to have one, and I would get terrible pain because of the tilt (Fx row being higher than Space row). This is something that quite a lot of keyboards have, and I find it terrible. The most comfortable keyboards I've ever used have been the Logitech Wave and the MS Sculpt wireless. I prefer the latter, since I never use the numpad, and the keys feel better. Overall it has a cheaper feel, though, and wrist rest padding is falling apart after some 3 years of use. But I also love my Keychron K2 v1 with Gateron browns, which is flat (Fx row at the same height as the Space row). It's quite high, mind, but an after-market wrist rest has fixed that, and it's a really lovely typing experience. It's quieter than most "basic keyboards" (think basic office keyboards from Dell, etc) and the smooth, low-resistance keys are great for finger fatigue.
- hughrr 5y agoThe new apple keyboards are nearly entirely flat so no problems there.
- lmarcos 5y agoI find the Apple Keyboard good enough as well. I really enjoyed the model that I used alongside my mbp of 2015.
- rob74 5y agoThe problem I see with "improved layout"/"ergonomic"/"split" keyboards is that not only do you have to retrain your muscle memory to use one, but once you do that, it will be harder for you to use a "regular" keyboard. I have a boring old Dell keyboard at home, so at work (where we have a hot desk policy since Covid -> home office -> office space reduction), I can use any keyboard except for one specific desk where for some reason they have a keyboard with a modified layout where the arrow keys are offset and the block above the arrow keys is rotated 90°
- kache_ 5y agoI use an ergodox most of the time. My WPM on ergodox is like 130, my wpm on regular is like 110 (not because its harder, but because I'm less used to it) If you keep switching as part of your protocol, it's fine
- BeFlatXIII 5y agoI with ergonomic keyboards doubled the keys on the border between hands between both halves. I frequently reach for those keys with the “wrong” index finger and would get annoyed if the keyboard said no.
- creakingstairs 5y agoI have a Moonlander and I have put off buying it for at least a year due to a same concern. It turned out to be not a concern. My hands seem to adapt to a normal keyboard whenever I use it so I can switch between the two freely without much trouble.
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- toxik 5y agoThis applies to typing Dvorak and Qwerty as well, you don’t really forget. It’s like dancing, you can learn salsa and foxtrot without losing the other. Addendum, for split keyboards there was no learning curve at all. Really you just put a hand on each split and that’s all there is to it.
- byteface 5y agoThe small mechanical keyboards are missing the small backtick which is also ё in Russian.
- pfkurtz 5y agoI've been on the Kinesis Freestyle Blue for years and I love it. I paired it with a Logitech trackball that's apparently discontinued; I'm looking for a replacement as good. Their setup here is really close. Long term, what I really want in a split mechanical keyboard: trackballs on both sides, near the spacebar, with intuitive mouse triggers built in. Maybe even a trackpad on one side, trackball on the other. That would be slick. One input device.
- richdougherty 5y agoI'm loving the Kinesis Freestyle Pro recently. The Kinesis Freestyle range is a fairly normal keyboard layout, so it's not a huge change from a normal keyboard. But there's that fantastic wide split and a panel of helpful shortcuts on the left. The wide split is great for shoulders and the shortcut panel helps with cutting down on common multi-key movements (copy, paste, etc). The Pro steps up from the other Freestyles with mechanical keys and programmability. I'm using the programmability to remap some of the modifier keys for comfort. Combined with the panel of common shortcuts, it's much easier on my hands. A bonus of having a programmable keyboard is that you don't need to rebind keys in the OS, something that's not always possible to do in corporate environments. https://kinesis-ergo.com/shop/freestyle-pro/ https://kinesis-ergo.com/shop/freestyle-pro/
- pfkurtz 5y agoI did not know about the Pro, thanks for planting the seed of desire! I've yet to get into keyboard reprogramming, someday I'll take the plunge and learn to type efficiently. One thing I really love about the Freestyle is that, with the stands and hand rests, it actually sits very nicely in the lap, for when you want to sit in the living room with the laptop on a coffee table.
- ZekeSulastin 5y agoHow far down the rabbit hole do you want to go? For example, https://old.reddit.com/r/ErgoMechKeyboards/comments/qkd9xe/scyllaballz_a_tractyl_manuform_with_oleds_roller https://old.reddit.com/r/ErgoMechKeyboards/comments/qkd9xe/s...
- rcarmo 5y agoOh boy. I’ve nearly taken the plunge myself because I wanted a very compact, efficient keyboard, but most of these aren’t Bluetooth (I’d have bought an Ergodox Planck if it was), and after researching building my own I nearly pulled the trigger on it. Then I bought a €20 Bluetooth keyboard on Xmas: https://taoofmac.com/space/blog/2022/02/19/1830 https://taoofmac.com/space/blog/2022/02/19/1830 The upshot of my experience is that the Apple Magic Keyboard is still amazing - flat, compact, quiet - and that it could be improved by being split or angled ergonomically - and I’d buy a keyboard that did exactly that (or what I bought for €20) with a good, quality build. (Alternate layouts, however, I believe to be a tad too much. I can and do switch between various regional variations of QWERTY on Mac and PC without looking at the keys - since I code in US layouts but need to type accented characters on PC and Mac - but going Workman or Colemak would make it hellish to switch between machines as often as I need to…)
- marban 5y agoI wanted to try an alternative to a Magic Keyboard, just because. Went for a Nuphy Air 75 — Worst $200 I ever spent in recent years.
- thweoiuo3243 5y agoUntil you've made your own Dactyl with a Trackball, you've not reached enlightenment, young Padawan.
- pixelbreaker 5y agoI have done just this, Dactyl Manuform with trackball custom generated with clojure (horrible) and trackball brutally added in meshmixer then 3d printed at home, it's fantastic. The fun starts with firmware. https://www.dropbox.com/s/mpjnojraag3w1uj/20220318_103527.jpg?dl=0 https://www.dropbox.com/s/mpjnojraag3w1uj/20220318_103527.jp...
- bluescrn 5y agoI'll never understand the obsession with 'less keys' amongst the mechanical keyboard 'scene'. I usually use a Filco Tenkeyless (Cherry Browns), and removing the usually-redundant numeric keypad brings the mouse a bit closer to my right hand, so a bit more comfortable and a little bit of space saved. But I can't see the benefit of going smaller ever outweighting the cost of re-learning to type. Adapting to laptop keyboards when used to full-size can be tricky enough...
- rr808 5y agoI love the numeric keypad, couldn't live without it.
- andreareina 5y agoThe common argument is fewer keys means less finger travel means better ergonomics. Hopefully someone with actual experience (i.e. not me) can chime in.
- gsinclair 5y agoI use Karabiner to create ergonomic combinations on my Mac, and consequently I use my full-size keyboard as if it were a very small one (while awaiting a proper mech keyboard). And yes, I love having all numbers and symbols at my fingertips without moving my hands. I don’t type faster but I type more comfortably. I also have the basic editing tools arranged logically so I can move/delete/select a character/word/line at a time, to the left/right. Again without moving my hands.
- Oddskar 5y agoOne can re-learn in a matter of weeks. The smaller the keyboard the less the fingers have to travel. I still have a full numpad setup with 44 keys and it’s a lot more comfortable to use than a normal keyboard.
- toastal 5y agoI find tenkeyless a bit weird when 75% exists. It saves like 2-3 inches without losing any keys.
- skocznymroczny 5y agoI went down the mechanical keyboard rabbit hole too, luckily I got out before buying any of the expensive keyboards. Started with a blue switch keyboard. Found the travel time way too long and the high rise keys were hurting my wrists. I found myself typing slower on it than usual and making more mistakes. Then I switched to a low profile blue switch keyboard. This one I actually enjoyed. But in the end, I still got back to a scissor switch keyboard (A4Tech KV-300H). For me personally, the flatter the keyboard, the better. I loved butterfly keyboard on Macbook too, shame they switched to standard scissor switch.
- Tsiklon 5y agoFor work I’ve become so very accustom to using a HHKB - in the office I use a HHKB Professional Hybrid Type-S. the Topre switches are essentially perfect for me, and the layout is so comfortable for me But personally at home I’m really enjoying the ability to customise the layout, switches and keycaps. I have two keyboards which I swap between at home, a tokyo60, a hot swap board which emulates the HHKB layout, within which I have quiet linear switches “Prevail Epsilons”. And a Drop CTRL, a “ten keyless” design which is also hotswappable, in which I use “Glorious Pandas”; a tactile type switch like Cherry MX Browns, which I feel are better. At this stage of the game I’m pretty much finished, like with hifi audio, it’s very easy for this to get out of hand quickly.
- ReleaseCandidat 5y agoBeen there done that. First I got an IBM buckling spring keyboard. I had forgotten how much I hated the sound and force needed for a keypress. Then some with Cherry switches, they where also meh. Then a Topre clone, just to find out that I actually prefer rubber domes. Now I'm using a cheap low profile Dell.
- jmyeet 5y agoI honestly don't understand the mechanical keyboard hype. I've now owned and used several but I prefer a plain old low profile keyboard like the Apple keyboards. I have a theory about this. I notice that some people like to stab the keys. They seem to use an excessive amount of force. I've always been all about using the least effort possible so low-profile keyboards seemed optimal to me. You just need barely a touch to register a keystroke. Mechanical keyboards seem built for excessive travel time in comparison. I have no evidence of this but I really do wonder if excessive typing force contributes to RSI/CTS. The author here really did go down a rabbit hole and I suggest that as soon as you look at changing layouts, you've perhaps gone a bit too far. At some point you'll be using a keyboard that isn't yours. The universality of QWERTY (or whatever the equivalent is in your locale) has virtues all of its own. My only real objection to mechanical keyboards is people who use super-clacky keyboards in an open-plan environment. That's just antisocial and inconsiderate.
- vladvasiliu 5y ago> I notice that some people like to stab the keys. They seem to use an excessive amount of force. I've always been all about using the least effort possible so low-profile keyboards seemed optimal to me. You just need barely a touch to register a keystroke. . This is interesting. I find that my mechanical keyboard (using Gaterown Brown switches) is the one that requires the least amount of force to operate. I also get the least (basically none) pressed keys without intention (say when resting my hands on the keyboard while thinking). This is actually to the point that when I switch to my MBP (2013 model) or HP laptop, I usually tend to miss some keys because I don't press hard enough. I really dislike the "full up" or "full down" way of working of these keyboards. > Mechanical keyboards seem built for excessive travel time in comparison But this is how you prevent the "shock" from bottoming-out: you don't press the key 'all the way'. With rubber keyboards and very short travel, I'm not able to react fast enough to stop pressing before it hits the bottom. > My only real objection to mechanical keyboards is people who use super-clacky keyboards in an open-plan environment. That's just antisocial and inconsiderate. Oh yeah. Even though I love my brown keys and consider them quite quiet, I use a "normal" keyboard at work, out of consideration for my colleagues.
- usednet 5y agoI’ve used dozens of keyboards and have finally settled on the HHKB Professional Hybrid Type-S as my endgame, as have many other programmers and engineers at least in the Bay Area.
- dm319 5y agoAlso went down this rabbit hole. Did a review of the split keyboard UHK v2 which I highly recommend. https://youtu.be/OPmoB8-11JY https://youtu.be/OPmoB8-11JY Edit: Apologies for the video quality. PS: The UHK might be of interest to some who aren't sure if a split is their thing. It isn't ortholinear, so the keys are staggered in the usual way. It also allows the keyboard to be re-connected in a single slab if you choose not to use the split. I'd def recommend the split to help with preventing carpal tunnel or RSI.
- synthmeat 5y agoMy RSI (though there are confounding variables) disappeared after about 4 months using it. Few notes: - Focusing heavy customization around the key cluster module very much helps with rare occasions I have to use laptop keyboards of mine. - With trackpoint module, I whip out the mouse so rarely it's in a drawer. - There are minor mechanical defects that don't affect functionality very much (or at all). Its build quality is oversold, but I don't mind. You will have to buy spare parts some day though. - split is the best, because your shoulders are the key to posture
- dm319 4y agoYes, I totally agree the split makes much more sense than jamming your wrists together to do many repetitive motions! I like the way the UHK allows you to slightly shuffle and adjust your position - more/less angle/separation. Bit like how you can adjust your hand position on a steering wheel or racing bike to adjust your position. What do you mean by using the key cluster module? I don't have it, but how does that help you when you need to use a laptop?
- synthmeat 4y ago> What do you mean by using the key cluster module? I don't have it, but how does that help you when you need to use a laptop? Well, I put a lot of mappings in the cluster module (tmux prefix, tmux macros, another alt, still playing with what's optimal there), but idea is to focus onto the cluster module what'll not be available on common/laptop keyboard so when you do have to use it, your muscle memory won't press the wrong buttons, since they aren't there. I don't think it completely removes the issue of muscle memory and changing keyboard, but for me it certainly goes a long way. Similar thing with trackpoint module, when I use trackpad, my hand still starts moving in right direction and prepping a finger to move a cursor. As a result of those two things, I really rarely experience dissonance using my different keyboards. The only thing I do notice is how it's terrible to use non-split, so I just try not to do it as often as I can.
- conjectures 5y agoOne thing I'd vouch for was the improvement in my RSI/hand aches I got from switching to a £100 mechanical keyboard with mx speed silver switches (low activation force). Absolute godsend as far as I'm concerned.
- 5tefan 5y agoI was almost down the rabbit hole. I stopped at Topre Boards. I enjoy typing and prefer it to any other board. Typing is my daily business amd to me worth the investment. I put corporate issued keyboards aside.
- toastal 5y agoPersonally I went to save a buck with similar but different NiZ brand electrocapactive rubber domes. I can never go back. I'd love to get something more ergonomic but electrocapactive isn't an option for most split boards and I'm too old to want to bother building another keyboard like my ErgoDox which now collects dust.
- 5tefan 5y agoI never tried one, but I read good things about them. A wider range of layouts and easier on the budget for sure. Topre is expensive.
- heuroci 5y ago@fowlie Have you taken a look at Maltron[1] yet? 1.https://www.maltron.com https://www.maltron.com
- fowlie 4y agoWow, no this is new to me. Looks a bit heavy for my personal taste, but nice to see some solid quality products like these available on the market.
- feeela 5y agoCan someone, who uses one of those tiny keyboards, elaborate how to work at all (let alone effectivly) without the Home/End/Page up/Page down block or arrow keys? How do you mark a word? How do you jump between lines or beginning and end of the line? (And I don't even want to think about having no F-keys - which would require even weirder key-combinations in many cases.)
- mattlondon 5y agoThey have "layers" so you can do some shortcuts and the extra keys become active - so e.g. activate a layer and now U, I, O, and P are home, end, insert , delete etc. Change layer back to normal and off you go.
- aikinai 5y agoThere are shortcuts for all of those keys that I use even if I’m on a full-sized keyboard that has them. MacOS has two sets actually, one with command and arrows and one with control using Emacs shortcuts.
- OskarS 5y agoYou don't really need those keys for that, there are almost always various chords that do that. macOS, in particular, has "Emacs-light" keybindings in most edit fields: Ctrl-A goes to the beginning of a line, Ctrl-E goes to the end, Alt-Backspace erases a word, etc. Of course, if you use Vim-style keys, you use normal mode for all that stuff. In general though, custom mechanical keyboards have firmware that can be programmed with "layers": hold down a certain key (or toggle) and layers get activated which changes the meanings of keys. This is the way those very minimal keyboards (which doesn't even necessarily have a number row) can work for daily use. If you want the keys badly, just program your firmware appropriately.
- kitsunesoba 5y agoYep, for me the home/end/etc keys rarely got use because I’ve been using the macOS text navigation bindings instead (though I’ve been using Cmd-arrows in place of Ctrl-A, Ctrl-E, etc for moving to start/end of doc, line, etc).
- mattlondon 5y agoOver the lockdown period I went on a bit of a general keyboard adventure myself. I read and saw a lot about optimum keyboards and wondered if I was missing out on amazing typing experiences. After all, typing was my job right (programming) so it made sense that I spend some time and money finding the best possible tools. I went through various full-sized mechanical keyboards, ergonomic keyboards, split keyboards (like the moonlander from this article, but different) and gave them a few months each. I would regularly check in with typingtest.com to try and get some real stats and see if my speed and accuracy was improving without me noticing. For reference/context I was originally trained with proper touch typing skills but have "evolved" into my own style (mainly using index middle ring for most typing with little & thumb reserved for shift, space, alt, ctrl, enter etc) ... average typing speed is about 75wpm with 99+% accuracy. After a load of money and time, it turns out that for me, a simple low profile chiclet keyboard (e.g. like this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_keyboards#/media/File:Apple_iMac_Keyboard_A1243.png https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_keyboards#/media/File:Ap...) is by far the best option for me: - mechanical keyboards are just too "tall" for me. It was fatiguing having to raise my fingers so much only then to push them down so much. The clickyness was a nice gimmick (initially), but I don't think it improved my typing at all, and just pissed off my wife. Yes I know you can get silent switches. Mine weren't. Returning to a non-mechnical keyboard definitely felt "bad" afterwards, but the adjustment takes a couple of minutes. - ergonomic keyboards were cool - I really enjoyed them and I kinda had this mental image in my head where I was kinda typing on a beachball. I really liked it, but it seems you cannot get a decent quality ergonomic keyboard with low-profile keys so you ended up with the same finger fatigue you get form a mechanical keyboard. - the split layout keyboard was a mind fuck - somehow just separating out the two halves seemed to reduce my brain down into something akin to a never-used-a-computer-before level of ineptitude. I was genuinely having to look for keys "Where is P?!" it just totally undid decades of keyboard layout knowledge and it was like it was the first time I was ever using a computer! Even when the two halves were approximately about the same position and spacing as the ergo keyboard, it was a real challenge. The whole time using the split keyboard (even with a conventional layout) was torture for me. With a chiclet keyboard, I just find them so much more pleasant to use - your fingers can just float around over the top with minimal fatigue and you can genuinely "flow" over they keys, moving your hands fluidly as you make tiny movements to activate the keys, and the keyboard itself is like 1cm thick so you do not need to raise your hands above the desk that much. I would like to find one with mechanical switches, but it seems that all mechanical switches are huge monsters that themselves are like 15mm high before you add the base of the keyboard.
- ChrisMarshallNY 5y agoI've never been a touch-typist, so my relationship with keyboards has been different from many. I need to look at the keys, so backlights and illuminated characters are important to me. I like a "clicky" keyboard, but am prome to "one-off" misrajes. These are magnified by keyboards with smaller surface.
- f1refly 5y agoI see a lot of people here complain about the misconception that nonstandard layouts on small form factor keyboards require emacs-esque key chording to get rather common keys like ~ or |. This is completely incorrect. I personally use a fullsize cherry keyboard in boring office grey, standard iso layout and the linear switches it came with. It has a navigation block, a numblock and the full function key row. However, due to the layout I'm using I never touched the numblock or the navigation cluster even once. There are four layers I use: The first layer are the normal lowercase letters and digits. The second layer is activated when I press shift, and inputs the same symbols but uppercase. The third layer inputs symbols. It is activated by pressing capslock or #. From there every common symbol I might ever want for programming language weirdness is readily accessible. The fourth layer I use is activated by pressing either '<>|' or right alt (alt gr). It activates the navigation cluster under my left hand and the numblock under my right hand. This way, it is entirely possible to only live in the 60% portion of the keyboard my hands are already on while enjoying all upsides the navigation and numblock areas provide. There is no chording, just like you wouldn't call it chording when you press shift to enter a capital 'A'.
- Multicomp 5y agoSomehow mechanical keyboard discussions often seem to forget what I consider to be the granddaddies of them all, the ibm, now unicomp model m keyboards.* I guess it's because unicomp does almost no marketing or at least doesn't bother to get their stuff in retail stores where there tend to be racks of so-called gaming keyboards and other mechanical keyboards? I can always know whether I pressed the key or not using a buckling spring keyboard, the same cannot be said for linear keys in my admittedly limited experience with razer yellow switches. *Yes there is no doubt someone somewhere who has a space cadet kb or actual physical teletype still hooked up to a modern PC somewhere, but I'm talking about something that is actually available for sale on a mass scale by consumers. The model f revival exists for collectors and is functional, but is just bespoke enough to me that it's more of a collector's item than a mass product.
- minimilian 5y agoThere is a significant difference in quality and feel between the models M and F: M is very stiff.
- SamReidHughes 5y agoTheir keyboards are painfully loud -- distractingly so -- that I found it affected my ability to focus.
- mauvehaus 5y agoI didn't mind my M much for years until I ended up crammed in a tight space that's all wood paneled. The clacks from the keyboard ring in the space in a way that's actually painful. I have to put on headphones whether I'm listening to music or not.
- TheRealDunkirk 5y agoI always said that, when Unicomp made a tenkeyless, it would be a day-1 purchase. I'm typing on the "Mini M" right now. I had an actual, real, IBM Model M on my first job, and loved it. And you're right, the F switches are a little different. Less clicky. I find them less satisfying than my nostalgia. I had an actual tenkeyless IBM model M briefly, but found it unusable for programming without a third modifier key for ⌥.
- clircle 5y agoMy favorite keyboard of all time is the kinesis freestyle 2. It’s a split keyboard, but unlike other splits, it is big, so i have arrow keys and function keys, just like my other keyboards. It is also not mechanical, which i think is a plus because all the mech switches I’ve tried are loud and require more pressure or key travel. Cheap way to go ergo.
- michaelbuckbee 5y agoSame. Because the layout is standard it's very easy to get going. An accessory that someone suggested to me that has worked out fantastically has been using yoga blocks to further tent the keyboards to an even better position and to hold them apart. Pic: https://twitter.com/mbuckbee/status/1463146441745047559 https://twitter.com/mbuckbee/status/1463146441745047559
- clircle 5y agoGreat tip! I have the first party tenting kit, but it is flimsy so i don’t use it
- michaelbuckbee 5y agoIf you look closely at the pic I'm actually using those as well (along with the palm rests). The tenting legs sort of "set" into the blocks and it's very stable.
- clircle 5y agoThanks, can you share the yoga block that you are using? And where do you find space to position a mouse?
- michaelbuckbee 4y agoThey're just standard wedge shaped yoga blocks (lots of options). I use both a mouse to the right and then I have a magic trackpad on what is actually a cell phone stand that's on my left.
- 83457 5y agoI'll stick with my CM Storm Quick Fire TK browns with toggle between numpad and standard keys. I may be the only one though because they discontinued it. I think it is the best kind of "ten-keyless" as it still has the numpad. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vM1Q-B-h40w https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vM1Q-B-h40w
- kstenerud 5y agoIs it just me or do mechanical keyboard aficionados sound strangely like audiophiles? I've worked on all sorts of keyboards since 1982, and I honestly can't see what all the hububb is about. The effect on your job performance is so minimal that it hardly seems worth worrying about beyond "is it comfortable?" and "does it annoy people around me?". It would be like classical guitarists arguing over which brand of footstool improves performance the most.
- qzw 5y agoIn my experience, <any>philes end up sounding the same. Once you start enjoying something for its own sake, going overboard becomes the whole point.
- joaodlf 5y agoHobbies that translate to your profession (like keyboards to programmers or headphones/amps to audio professionals) can very much become placebo. Unless you are financially crippling yourself over the "hobby", it's OK. I have a few keyboards lying around (I've returned a couple as well in the past), I like to change it up every once in a while. It often gives me that little extra push to work on something I might find boring.
- pozol 5y agoA lot of people are saying it’s not about performance and it’s more about feel. I need to jump in that the performance gain is a big deal for me. You can program a lot of these boards so any key does whatever you want. So I’ve customized mine to be very efficient for vim keybindings, for example, and it has improved my coding efficiency significantly. So I definitely get the downsides of spending hundreds on the “next best switch” or whatever, but for me there are concrete improvements to my efficiency.
- egypturnash 5y agoMore like guitarists discussing guitars, IMHO. Lots of people from beginner to master do just fine with six strings tuned to EADGBE but some people get into left-handed tunings or three necks with different tunings on each or a Chapman Stick or some other weird custom instrument. It’s a deep rabbit hole you can go down, with a lot of equipment to buy and experiment with along the way. A lot of it has little actual effect, but every now and then you find something that really works for you and makes the daily grind at the craft much more pleasant. And also it’s fun to play on that cool looking guitar with a custom paint job or to type on that cool custom keyboard: this is my instrument. (Me, my main keyboard change is mapping caps lock to cmd-alt-shift and fn-x to cmd-shift-x, both in the service of reducing the amount of complex knots I have to tie my fingers in to hit my many Illustrator hotkeys.)
- rr808 5y agoI love my keyboard, but it makes going back to the office even harder. Some crappy $10 keyboard now feels horrible.
- rcthompson 5y agoMy experience with customizing my Ultimate Hacking Keyboard has taught me something: I can't actually diverge too much from a "normal" keyboard layout, because in addition to a USB keyboard at a desk, I also use the built-in keyboards on my personal laptop (Framework) and my work laptop (MBP). It's just not worth it for me to build muscle memory that works for only one of the three keyboards I use on a regular basis. So I can't, for example, get used to the tab/window switching shortcuts of the UHK's default Mod layer[1], because as soon as I switch to another keyboard I have to go back to Alt+Tab etc. In theory I could probably figure out some way to implement something like a Mod layer for every keyboard I use regularly, but I don't feel like that's worth the effort. On the other hand, mapping Caps Lock to Escape is something I can do easily on every keyboard I own, and has been a worthwhile adjustment. It's needed on the UHK because by default Escape is on the Mod layer, and I want it as a regular key, but once I did it there I liked it enough to do it everywhere. All that said, I do like the UHK a lot. I bought it mainly for the ergonomics of a split, adjustable angle keyboard, and it's great for that. And the silent brown key switches I chose are great for typing during calls. [1]: https://ultimatehackingkeyboard.com/manuals/uhk60/navigation-shortcuts https://ultimatehackingkeyboard.com/manuals/uhk60/navigation...
- notrealyme123 5y agoI had it the other way around. The many options in configuring my ergodox ez left a big desire when moving back to original keyboards. So naturally there is a tool to do all this stuff [1]. Mapping "Right Alt" + "Space" = "Enter" made me very very lazy. [1] https://github.com/kmonad/kmonad https://github.com/kmonad/kmonad
- MivLives 5y agoI use a keyboard similar to yours (Sofle V2) and I've found I don't really have a problem switching between them. I pretty regularly can type on both it, and my normal macbook keyboard without much thought given to it. Only occasionally do I feel myself trying to reach for a thumb button that isn't there and for the most part I can handle window switching fine. The switch from Mac to Windows which I do once a day is more frustrating as suddenly my copy paste key is one over from where it was. However that switching is the reason I remain on qwerty, because I think at that point I'd find switching hard.
- bjoli 5y agoI am in the light-yet-tactile camp. I hate cherry switches. Mx browns feels like rough linears, Mx blue are probably my least favourite clicky switches. I find Matias keyboards fantastic, yet their tactile switches have awful quality issues, probably due to the lube. I cleaned all mine and applied my own lube which made them work as they should. Their clicky switches are amazing feeling, and have no issues that I know of. And the keyboards lack all those worthless extras like backlighting and gamer fonts. It is almost like they decided they wanted to sell keyboards to grown-ups. So now I have found my keyboards. Whenever Matias goes bankrupt I will probably scrape eBay for BTC dome with slider keyboards (better rubber domes cost 30x as much). If you like linear switches there are LOADS of exciting things going on.
- ben7799 5y agoI love all these cool keyboards and tried a bunch but Cherry style switches just destroy my fingers/wrists/whatever. They are like RSI monsters for me. I'm not really sure why but at least for me I'm 100% sure they're a disaster. I was totally convinced mechanical keyboards were a million times better due to the hype and that they feel awesome.. after about 5 years of using them I was in serious pain and it was really hard for me to wrap my head around the Cherry switches being the problem. All the hype made it really hard for me to grok that when I went back to cheap scissor switch or rubber dome keyboards my problems went away. I still have a couple of mechanical keyboards.. I started going back to the office and plugged in a Das Keyboard there because it was what I had... sure enough after a few days of heavy coding my forearms are screaming again. I need to force myself to get rid of the last 2 of these keyboards. And I had a lot.. 3x Das Keyboards, Code Keyboard, Kineses, TEK. I can flip all the variables other than switch type and none of them really matter.. as long as it has Cherry MX Brown or Blue style I have issues. I am kind of getting eager to maybe try some of the new short travel optical switches or something now that their are options other than Cherry style.
- bjoli 5y agoHad I liked linear switches, I would have jumped on the opportunity to use one of the new variable-depth linear, contactless switches (like wooting, steelseries or even razer). I tried the wooting lekker edition and the experience was like trying some really good audio equipment. I seriously started salivating. Really really weird.
- annoyingnoob 5y agoMy measure of a keyboard is how fast I can type on it and then how much the sound of it annoys me. Quiet and fast is where its at for me. There are lots of cheap everyday keyboards that work well for me.
- zelphirkalt 5y agoA while ago I bought a mechanical keyboard and I am still sometimes surprised by how much less I need to push down on a key for it to be registered. Still pressing too strongly actually. But it already has helped me to avoid some pain in the finger joints, which in turn also allowed me to do more coding in my free time, off the job, as well. Previously after a day of coding and doing things at work, sometimes my fingers would hurt and I would avoid any unnecessary typing. That however annoyed me, because I have many projects myself, which I want to make progress on. So I am quite happy with my mechanical linear feedback key switches keyboard. If you are a person, who types a lot, I definitely recommend investing in a really good keyboard, since you spend a lot of time each day typing and can avoid some pain. Not so much into alternative keyboard layouts yet. Maybe some day.
- ge96 5y agoIt lubes the switches or it gets the hose again.
- Diesel555 5y ago> Emacs users often get the credits for inventing this hack. And that hack is about realizing how stupid they caps lock key really is. Well, maybe not stupid, but unless you write SQL all day long, you’re not using it enough for it to deserve such a good position right there on the home row on your keyboard. Replace it with ctrl! Why didn’t I ever think of this? The location of ctrl has always been awkward to me.
- Findecanor 5y agoSome vi users map the key to Escape instead.
- Diesel555 5y agoI just discovered ctrl+[ can be used instead of escape. So now I remapped caps lock to ctrl and avoid both ctrl and escape. I didn't realize escape used to be where tab is today.
- Koshkin 5y agoGoing on a tangent, I imagine that on spaceships or in space colonies there will be no place for mechanical keyboards. "Moving parts" will eventually break, and resource-strapped communities cannot afford that. For better or worse, touchscreen will be all they will have.
- riskable 5y agoThis is a big reason why I invented my own 3D printable key switches and keyboards that use magnets instead of springs! Check it out: https://github.com/riskable/void_switch https://github.com/riskable/void_switch In space, a spring could fly off who-knows-where and you can't change how strong it is--you need to use a different spring if you want that! With magnets, you can change how strongly they pull apart just by changing how far apart the magnets are at rest (aka "the void"). It's best not to rely on injection-moulded parts in space because it would be cost prohibitive to keep all those moulds on-hand on every ship/station. This is why 3D printable switches are ideal for use in space. 3D printers work great in zero G! Then there's the fact that traditional switches don't really last very long... Their mechanical contact plates wear out and can even create small sparks which is a major problem in space! With magnets and hall effect sensors the entire keyboard can be contactless and basically air, water, and dust tight. The keyboard I'm typing on right now has all these features and more and the entire top plate can be taken off (e.g. for cleaning or using different switches/layouts): https://gfycat.com/costlyglaringhyracotherium https://gfycat.com/costlyglaringhyracotherium My contactless 3D printable Void Switches should last basically forever because rare earth magnets only lose 5% of their magnetism over the course of 100 years and if any switch wears out or gets damaged it's only a $0.01 3D print away to make a new one (you can re-use the $0.01/each magnets from the old switch).
- oldstrangers 5y agoI've been a fan of mechanical keyboards for 20 years now. I bought a IBM Model M off ebay when I was in my teens. The space itself isn't that fun to participate in, lots of people eagerly waiting to gatekeep their little space. And the really cool stuff is going for $600 before you even add in any switches, boards or keycaps. All that said, I found Keychron (https://www.keychron.com/ https://www.keychron.com/) keyboards last year and their quality and price absolutely blew me away. I bought two of the Keychron Q2 QMKs, fully assembled. Sounds like an ad but I was just so happy to finally find a keyboard of this quality that didn't make me wait 6 months, didn't cost $1200, and wasn't buried in some community exclusive drop that only 18 people would have access to, etc.
- notreallyserio 5y agoI love my K8 except for the paint on the key caps -- its way too thin. I've chipped off the faces of a few keys because (I think[0]) I don't trim my nails every few days, sometimes up to a week. To be fair, I have the same problem with my MBP keyboard, but not with a cheap gimmicky Razer "gaming" keyboard. I know I can resolve this by trimming my nails every day but boy is that tedious. 0: others have suggested it might be due to skin oils. I dunno. I'm not a chemicologist.
- aidenn0 5y agoI wanted to love keychron but two issues: 1. No scroll-lock on their keyboards; many KVMs use scroll-lock to control switching 2. The TKL models have the upper-right key lock the screen and it is super easy to hit with my trackball right next to the keyboard. I removed the keycap which helps a lot, but stil...
- tremon 5y agoThe Keychron keyboards don't support programmable layouts then?
- oldstrangers 5y agoMine does, they have a lot of options though so not sure they all do.
- emacs28 5y agoI went down this rabbit hole and I now: - use 30 keys - control the mouse from my keyboard - never have to move my palms in the slightest all day - get far more control and (Emacs) keybindings It was a very painful process though deciding on my custom key layout. I would make myself re-learn new layouts on an daily or hourly basis for 6 months until I was satisfied. I have a Moonlander but my long term plan is to move to Tightyl: https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/glfyki/the_tightyl_a_tight_tiny_dactyl_manuform/ https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/glfyki...
- jmnicolas 5y ago> - never have to move my palm in the slightest all day Isn't it bad for RSI?
- emacs28 5y agoHm not sure, it feels fine to me at least. I think having fewer keys to hit makes it seem unnecessary to move the palms. Some people are really specific on never resting the palms on anything to reduce RSI, which I do sometimes to make typing faster, but my layout allows me to also rest my palms all day too if I want. It works for me at least.
- fouronnes3 5y agoCan you expand on controlling the mouse with the keyboard? How does that work?
- emacs28 5y agoCertainly! I have 4 keys for mouse movement (left, right, up, down) in my "mouse" layer. If you tap them it moves the mouse a little bit in that direction, if you hold the keys then the mouse moves slow at first, then starts to speed up (that is more controlled at the OS level though). You can also add keys to change the acceleration. I have these 4 direction keys on my middle and index fingers of each hand. There are also keys for clicking which I have on my ring fingers, and on my palm for when I need to click down and drag. It takes getting used to obviously but I don't mind it now. It works for 95% of my uses but I'll admit if I need really fine control, I'll use my trackpad for a couple of seconds.
- keeeeeeeem 5y agoMy experience with MX switches was that they were terribly underwhelming, they felt cheap and in the case of MX browns they somehow made my keyboard accuracy decrease. Topre switches, on the other hand, have been worth every penny.
- michaelmcdonald 5y agoMy hands have been spoiled by topre. My ears as well. It is the absolute best typing experience I've had (and I've tried a great many switch types).
- npteljes 5y agoI had one for some years, but I couldn't deal with the maintenance. At one point it began to double type, and then I had to take it apart, clean it a bit, put it together and hope that the issue went away - which it sometimes did, sometimes needed another round of cleaning. So I sold it and now I'm back to a solid rubber domed office keyboard which "just works".
- bricemo 5y agoI’ve always wanted the mechanical keyboard crowd to stretch further. Where is the keyboard made of pipes and water? Made of plants? The air keyboard that uses LED sensors and light to type? Keyboard gloves? An old typewriter turned into a modern keyboard? A lot of this stuff is done in the raspberry pie or arduino crowds.
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- generj 5y agoThe community has done some stuff like this (the typewriter conversions especially, though they are rare due to difficulty) and there’s a lot of crossover between the mechanical keyboard crowds and rpi/Arduino crowds. The problem is that gimmick projects are well-suited for rpi/Arduino. These projects rarely are solving a real need so practicalities are ephemeral. These sorts of wild projects are driven at least partially by a desire for recognition within the community for pursuing them. But everyone knows what a keyboard is used for. Radical ideas are fun except everyone at the end of the day still needs to type and knows not to get to excited about crazy concepts. This includes the people who are thinking about making the crazy concepts. So we get keyboards with RGB and encoder knobs and layouts and OLED screens and quick detach cables other fun additions/modifications which don’t fundamentally change the core of how the keyboard executes.
- ajmarsh 5y agoAll I want to know is why is it every cool key cap set I find is sold out?
- spike021 5y agoI bought my first one a year ago (Keychron K2 v2) and I've mostly enjoyed it. It has both USB and BT output, which is nice. Except, I just recently found a really terrible bug. If I disconnect the USB and switch to BT mode and the battery dies, I'm unable to use USB mode whatsoever until the battery is fully charged (I think BT works eventually but not straight from 0% charged either).
- agigao 5y agoAlmost fall into the pitfall. Have seen friends around spending 300-400$ in "custom" keyboards. Used a couple of mechanical keyboards over time: Razer, Anne Pro II, Logitech G something, custom made, Asus Rog TKL etc. Well, used those for fun with PC but my major workhorse has always been Mac setup: MacBook + Monitor + Magic Keyboard/Trackpad, and productivity has always been there with this setup. Although I spent some time with Mechanical keyboards, still Magic Keyboard TKL scores the highest, in terms of productivity, stability, comfort. You can have fun w/mech keyboards, but I'd rather spend my time onto something that actually matters. Go with simplicity without overthinking and wasting time.
- bisby 5y agoAlmost every other engineer I know loves the Magic Keyboard. I cant stand them. I cant stand any laptop keyboards. Their flatness just breaks my brain. Even if my productivity doesn't go down as a result, I just don't enjoy it. It's like those five finger toe shoes. They won't make me faster or slower, but the whole time I'll actively noticing the material between my toes. Until I've worn them for a few weeks or months, and then it becomes second nature. But I have no desire (or need) for a mac keyboard to become second nature. I've spent the past several decades growing used to the shape and feel of a certain type of keyboard, and I don't see a reason to change. For me, going with the mechanical keyboards IS the choice to go with simplicity; it isn't a thing I "spend time on" All of my mechanical keyboards are in the $100-150 range. And a magic keyboard is $100. So it's not like I'm excessively splurging (I get that some people do though). Everyone can have their opinion though. So that's neat.
- woah 5y ago> Professional musicians don’t play on crappy equipment, right? Writing-heavy professions, and even managerial professions where people are writing emails all day probably do more typing than many programmers. I think programmers are into weird keyboards simply because they are nerdy.
- jjtheblunt 5y agoor it's a nice tangible break from the monotony of coding in languages they'd not really prefer? i guess that IS nerdy, though, to your point.
- syspec 5y agoThis is the part I'm dreading the most about returning to the office. Teammates with mechanical keyboards just drive me mad. I get it you're typing! I can tell from 20 feet away.
- kjellsbells 5y agoI have to wonder, like a mathematician, does the perfect keyboard + layout have to exist at all? Maybe its just not possible. Lets say in a typical day I spend 2 hours in each of vscode, Word, Excel and bash. Each one of those needs a different keyboard experience that is not very compatible with the others. To take a trivial example, in bash I want the semicolon, ampersand, quote, parens and tab keys to be prominent. imagine them being raised a few mm above the surface of the kbd in that mode. But in Excel i need arrow keys and a numpad plus parens and equals. and in word i just need a to z and basic punctuation. A standard keyboard, even an exotic one, doesnt really help.