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Facebook Accused of Watching Instagram Users Through Cameras
- noisy_boy 6y agoWith the VR/AR initiatives they have, people will voluntarily share what they are looking at. Make sharing information integral part of the experience and you get everything without any wrongdoing.
- andreareina 6y agohttps://archive.is/uCMN9 https://archive.is/uCMN9
- samoa42 6y agomuch appreciated
- dvfjsdhgfv 6y agoConditi will have a hard time proving it wasn't a bug and the data was actually being used in the way she describes it.
- mtgx 6y agoThis thing where Facebook collects a lot of data in ways to which most people would object for years and years, and then when they get caught they claim it was a "bug", is getting really old. To make matters worse, they usually tend to re-introduce the "bug" as some kind of feature a few years later, as their way of saying "yes, we really do thing our users are that stupid to not realize what we've done, why do you ask?!"
- bitL 6y agoGoogle started it with the WiFi collection "bug" and offline location collection "bug".
- im3w1l 6y agoThat makes me think... what kind of insight into facebook's inner workings might we get from the discovery?
- throwaway2048 6y agoah yes, another "bug" that happens to result in massive data collection, oops.
- CGamesPlay 6y agoIs this the same scandal from before: where the app had the camera on because when you swipe to record a story they wanted it to be instantly available? Did it just take a while to reach lawsuit status or is this about some new thing?
- ignoramous 6y ago> Is this the same scandal from before: Scandal(s): https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23950892 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23950892 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21513471 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21513471 Though, my favourite (unrelated to the camera "bug" here) is the one Will Strafach uncovered: https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1090394419902197761.html https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1090394419902197761.html
- Zenbit_UX 6y agoOne of us would have had to write this code, a PM would have had to authorize and break it down, a UX designer might have had to design its internal dashboard for "how to perv on users most efficiently" including flows and user stories, and then that code would have had to be pushed to the Instagram git repo which surely has some ~hundred devs on it that saw it go in, or may notice it at some time in the future. Now I know it takes a healthy dose of cognitive dissonance to work for facebook in this day and age but the main reason this doesn't seem likely to me is that that's way too many people involved in something beyond shady (even for Facebook) for this to not get out. There's even a [formula](https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0147905 https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal...) to calculate how likely it is for a conspiracy to remain a secret depending on the number of people involved.
- lalos 6y agoMultiple (horrible) events through history can provide the insight that as long as you partition each task enough, people will happily work and contribute to a horrible end goal and later claim they were only following orders and had no idea of the side effects of their individual actions.
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- amelius 6y agoWhy isn't the user better protected by the OS from these kinds of malpractices?
- speedgoose 6y agoProtecting the user is obviously not the priority.
- PhantomGremlin 6y agoThis is starting to happen. E.g.: New iOS 14 feature warns you if someone is spying on you through your iPhone: Look out for the orange dot at the top of your screen https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-8744423/iOS-14-update-displays-orange-dot-warn-listening-in.html https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-8744423/iOS-...
- antegamisou 6y agoThis is the exact same thing as the red microphone banner popping up at the top left in all previous iOS versions. Also, strongly reconsider citing tabloids as accurate - reliable news' source, especially when it comes to tech.
- anaganisk 6y agoWhat else do u expect when major OS is an ad company. Basically everything the google does is to funnel data.
- can16358p 6y agoDon't want to be the devil's advocate here but just because camera is on doesn't mean anything is being recorded. As an iOS developer who worked with apps that access camera frequently, I can confidently say that it's just a UX optimization. Starting the camera takes a brief few hundred milliseconds which is easily noticable from a user perspective. By keeping the camera ready, they are making the experience smoother. I think this is it. Just because Facebook is an evil company doesn't mean this directly is a malicious move.
- kevingadd 6y agoOne of the most annoying things is to try and launch your camera on a phone and have to wait multiple seconds before you can hit the shutter, at which point the thing you want to photograph might already be gone. So I can definitely understand the logic behind this, even if it's creepy. IIRC, Apple has invested specifically in reducing startup latency for the camera, but I don't know if that applies to apps.
- can16358p 6y agoFrom what I can tell the startup time is more or less the same for both the built in camera app and the third party apps. IIRC built in camera used to start a bit faster in the past but that's not an issue anymore. The problem is that we launch the camera app and because the icon animates from home screen to fill the device window the latency is less noticeable, but for example in Instagram, the app is already open in full screen so starting the camera from a user action, even though it takes the same time with launching the camera app, is more noticeable from a user perspective.
- pferde 6y agoDoesn't keeping camera on increase battery drain, though? Also, with Facebook being evil and all, what's stopping them from hopping on "hey, the camera is already on, let's not waste that, and use the incoming visual data for something while we're at it" line of thinking eventually?
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- emsy 6y agoLet’s assume for a moment the story turns out to be true: would people stop using Instagram because of it?looking at the history of privacy violations and the market’s responds to it I doubt it. There is a minority of users who will feel rightfully violated in their privacy (imagine browsing instagram naked while possibly being ogled at by some creep at FB). The worst that will happen is that FB will be sanctioned to pay a laughably low fine. I think we need much harsher repercussions against these practices, up to barring them completely from operating.
- bogwog 6y agoPeople still smoke even though everyone knows it's bad for you. Maybe like smoking we need a minimum age for social media that's actually enforced and heavily penalized?
- devit 6y agoA lot of people would probably deny camera permissions to Instagram (and upload by sharing from gallery if they upload content), and their reputation would take a significant hit (currently they aren't known to covertly gather any personal data beyond generic OS-provided statistics). Also Instagram isn't really essential to communicate and learn about events in the way the main Facebook service is, so stopping to use it is highly feasible.
- robbintt 6y agoAgreed. I just checked my setting and apparently did this "deny and post from camera roll" by default. I have no doubt I was just making a privacy conscious choice.
- kennywinker 6y agoYou can’t post instagram stories without giving both camera and microphone access. This is a significant leverage point for a lot of people.
- reaperducer 6y agowould people stop using Instagram because of it? Any responsible parent would make sure their young children didn't use it. There is a minority of users who will feel rightfully violated in their privacy So? Because they're in the minority their voices don't matter? The worst that will happen is that FB will be sanctioned to pay a laughably low fine. Sadly, you're spot-on with this one.
- jjbinx007 6y agoEven if this was true, which I doubt, what would Facebook actually gain by doing this? They'd see a person's face from an unflattering angle with an unflattering expression. Or they'd see whatever the front camera sees at the time, which in my case right now is the back of my phone case or possibly the floor. I don't see that as valuable data to mine.
- drcongo 6y agoReally? One of the largest facial recognition databases in the world has nothing to gain from pictures of people's faces?
- Frost1x 6y agoI really don't know how people can continue to actively use their services, especially with an OS native app.
- washadjeffmad 6y agoThey'd be able to track what your eyes focused on and for how long, whether you wore glasses, were bald, your approximate age and ethnicity, whether you have facial hair, your reactions to content, and a lot of other behaviors and metrics that would never cross your mind. Instagram already does all of the above, but so does a lot of digital signage in shopping districts, in addition to tracking your BT HWID, to monitor trends in real time. Then they sell this info to eg- financial companies that operate things like mutual funds. That's what I was doing with mine in the mid-2000s, anyway.
- srtjstjsj 6y agoYou think instagram needs to spy on you to get a picture of your face? Because the 1000s of photos you already uploaded aren't enough?
- washadjeffmad 6y agoYou're selecting the wrong authority here. That's exactly how Instagram's algorithm works, whether or not you or I think it. In general, "you're not being paranoid enough" is a true statement.
- swiley 6y agoIs the main reason the app store still has public support this belief that apple instruments the apps it reviews? Because it looks like they don't. If that's the case it's trivially easy to get malware on the iphone and the only thing the app store really does is give Apple power.
- mantap 6y agoThis is well known among iOS developers. Apple's approval process is far too cursory to catch malware. Also a lot of crapware gets through. The best you can say about it is that it filters out the really obvious stuff.
- kennywinker 6y agoAnd provides a mechanism for pulling bad apps when they’re later found to be bad.
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- _trampeltier 6y agoLately was also this thing, with App check always our clipboard. I wonder how many website does the same, and also check your clipboard all the time. And with more and more APIs in browsers, I wonder how many website start to listen and watch you.
- rickyc091 6y agoNot even websites. Desktop apps also have access to your clipboard without any permissions. Can't wait until it becomes more common practice to provide an audit trail of any apps snooping on the clipboard.
- Hokusai 6y agoWhy physical sliding covers are not mandatory? This happens again and again. And, everybody has several cameras at home. A part of that, Facebook still is responsible for their actions.
- zupreme 6y agoThis is why iOS is badly in need of a “Task Manager” and of an “Event Viewer”, so that users may easily audit what resources each app is currently accessing, and which resources they have accessed in the past, including logging each instance of camera or microphone use by any app. Apple has the power to easily mitigate these concerns - yet they do not. Why?
- loriverkutya 6y agoBecause my mother is using an iphone and nothing you described would make sense for her. She is pretty good with tech and understands how computers and phones work, but she just does not want to browse a process list to see which process is using the camera.
- anhner 6y agothen she can choose not to browse the list?
- loriverkutya 6y agoMy main point is that you need to present this information on a way that even those people can interpret it who can't/don't want to know about process lists because they are the majority. It's the same as you have an engine temperature gauge in most cars. I'm not really interested on what's going on inside the engine, I just want to know if the engine overheats so I can check basic things (cooling system leaks, etc) and if I cannot see what's wrong I wait and try to get to the nearest garage or call roadside assistance. As a power user, I see value in a process list but I see why it does not take priority over other features. Edit: spelling
- mkay581 6y agoNot my intention for this to come off like a plug but Android has been doing this for quite a while now. It simply shows any process being ran as a silent notification and then goes away when it's done. I agree keeping a running log is probably unintuitive even for an advanced phone user but the way Android has pulled this off is surprisingly easy to wrap your head around.
- pmlnr 6y ago"oh, it's a bug" - so make them financially and legally responsible for bugs. Just like automotive is.
- jml7c5 6y agoYou generally need to show damages for liability.
- antpls 6y agoI suspected for a long time that they are doing the same on Android. There must be a very small mechanical part in my phone's camera (probably the lens when it focuses) that makes a subtle noise when activated. I noticed the noise was present every few minutes when I browsed on Instagram, but only when I forgot to turn off camera permission. It is creepy, no matter what the reason behind this.
- what_ever 6y agoWouldn't this be easy to verify on those phones where the front camera pops outside when being used? https://www.vivo.com/in/products/v15pro https://www.vivo.com/in/products/v15pro
- rvz 6y agoCall it for what it is. Complete Malware. Plain and simple fact.
- numpad0 6y agoBeing lawful-evil person I am, I once imagined a “news” app such that display content or suggestion ever so unnoticeably slightly change depending on how user behaves judged by device camera. A facial expression ML model would be trained beforehand so camera data would not have to be collected, but only pushed to users along app updates, and content would be analyzed and encoded at server side to determine what users are to feel, along with hints to aid learning and correlation between different stories, all subconsciously and automatically. As for what to do with a system like that...I don’t know, make boatloads of cash by forcing in-app purchases? Push your favorite but little known novels and comics? Make group of people I like by my specifications? Promote good posture, regular exercises and force people to look up? I wouldn’t want to use it so specific elected officials pass or resign, or world’s atrocities to become accepted... Then I got bored. But could it have been something like this?
- SkyMarshal 6y agoI wonder if people make distinct enough facial expressions while reading online content for this to work. For myself, I pretty much stare blankly at the screen the whole time without much change in my expression. The ML would have to be very good at detecting slight nuance.
- AndrewThrowaway 6y agoWhile your face might seem still, e.g. your heartbeat, your eye movements can reveal a lot. I remember how I was blown away by this video a few years ago: https://youtu.be/3rWycBEHn3s?t=171 https://youtu.be/3rWycBEHn3s?t=171
- almyndz 6y agoyeah, usually when I'm reading the news I'm only screaming on the inside
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- hairofadog 6y agoTo your point, one of the things I worry about with apple news, for example, is that the underlying ai won’t understand _why_ I dislike a particular news story. Generally I downvote hyperbole, clickbait, and paparazzi content, but I would guess it’s more common for people to downvote things based on the substance of a story, e.g. downvoting a well-written, truthful article because the truth in that case is inconvenient for their political stance, or because it’s about a loathsome-yet-newsworthy person. A facial recognition system would have to know the difference between my face being frustrated at a high-quality story about the fires in the western states vs my frustration that apple news seems to find Andy Borowitz to be hilarious and relevant. Maybe possible, but lots of nuance under the surface.
- natch 6y agoI wonder how unfettered Mark’s access is to all their data and systems. The answer to this question should be public in order to bolster trust, but as far as I know it is not. More on topic, I doubt this particular feature is nefarious, but those who would spy often seem to rely on others’ doubt that it is happening.
- tonywastaken 6y agoI noticed this yesterday: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24505285 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24505285 Facebook got caught on this one- but there are probably hundreds of Apple internal APIs that they are using to violate people's privacy.
- mgoetzke 6y agodid ios14 not add something like a monitoring for this ?
- august125 6y agoMark Zuckerberg has completed his transformation into a real life Artie Ziff. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CU9X3tvTmIQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CU9X3tvTmIQ
- jessaustin 6y agoYour comparison is apt, but for a moment I confused this character with that of Jean-Baptiste Emanuel Zorg. Villains with a "Z"!
- jtjones 6y agoI personally do not accept app camera permissions for any app that I don't fully trust. I stopped trusting the Facebook app years ago when it launched itself constantly in the background.
- trident1000 6y agoKind of absurd there is not a physical camera close feature on phones at this point.
- dangus 6y agoThis kind of thing makes me glad that we’ve got the mic/camera indicator dots in iOS 14, along with the clipboard paste notifications.
- parliament32 6y agoOn a side note, IG works perfectly fine being denied the Camera permission. In fact, it doesn't even complain about it until you try to take a picture in-app... and most users' workflow is taking pics with their phone's camera app (which is almost always better than IG's) and uploading the actual files to IG (you can still apply filters and everything else this way).
- angel_j 6y agoIt doesn't need access to your photo library either. Imagine giving access to your whole roll!
- kennywinker 6y agoIf you want to post, it needs access to your photo library or the camera. If you want to post stories, it needs access to the camera and microphone.
- angel_j 6y agonah you pick a photo and select "share" then select insta
- paxys 6y agohttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weasel_word https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weasel_word