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Shopify CEO says long hours aren't necessary for success

552 points by sjs 7y ago

IB885588 7y ago
Original thread on twitter: https://twitter.com/tobi/status/1210242184341000192?s=20 https://twitter.com/tobi/status/1210242184341000192?s=20
- keyP 7y ago
  I've unrolled the thread for easier reading https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1210242184341000192.html https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1210242184341000192.html
- dang 7y ago
  Thanks! We changed the URL to that from https://www.businessinsider.com/shopify-ceo-success-long-hours-40-hour-week-2019-12 https://www.businessinsider.com/shopify-ceo-success-long-hou..., which is mostly just reporting on it. What does the s=20 do?
  - ivl 7y ago
    > What does the s=20 do? Seems to be tacked on by Twitter to track the source of shares. Pretty sure the number changes by device.
    - mcpherrinm 7y ago
      s=20 is shared from mobile website (iOS and android tested). 21 is iOS app. Don't have others to test offhand. There's a Twitter thread from a few years ago where a few folk collected a bunch of them, but I can't find it anymore.
pmoriarty 7y ago
"I've never worked through a night. The only times I worked more than 40 hours in a week was when I had the burning desire to do so. I need 8ish hours of sleep a night. Same with everybody else, whether we admit it or not" So he didn't. What about his employees? Not to imply that long hours are necessary. I think they're abhorrent. But they're also endemic. Some bosses do get away with working shorter hours while they flog their employees to work like crazy. On the other hand, workaholism at many companies tends to gets worse and worse as you gain responsibility, and some of the most insane hours are worked by those near the top.
- thebradbain 7y ago
  I can't speak on behalf of the entire company (or even a portion of it), but anecdotally, my colleague previously worked at Shopify and said the atmosphere and culture there was very laid back. Taken in conjunction with the Twitter thread the CEO wrote, that all seems to check out.
- luhn 7y ago
  If you read the Twitter thread [0], ostensibly they don't. > For creative work, you can't cheat. My believe is that there are 5 creative hours in everyone's day. All I ask of people at Shopify is that 4 of those are channeled into the company. Obviously Shopify has thousands of employees now, there's very real chance that Tobi's perception does not match the reality of the employees. [0] https://twitter.com/tobi/status/1210242184341000192 https://twitter.com/tobi/status/1210242184341000192
  - nrdgrrrl 7y ago
    I work in a non-coding position, way at the bottom of the org chart, and Tobi's vision does filter all the way down to us - mostly. We work a 37.5 hour week and we're strongly discouraged from working beyond the end of our shift (and have the support we need for this to actually be possible). We also have 3-5 hours a week for professional development. Sure it's not a 5 hour work day, but we're also not doing much creative work. It's far better than any other job I've been at.
- rogerkirkness 7y ago
  I worked there. It's clearly a more focused environment than other SV companies I've seen since. Tobi works hard and does the right thing. I think the challenge was actually the first rung of middle managers not being smart enough to understand the long term focus. That's part that's hard to scale. But the leaders walked the talk and empowered others to do so.
  - pmoriarty 7y ago
    "Tobi works hard and does the right thing." What does it mean to "work hard" at a white collar job when you don't work long hours? Honestly curious.
Ericson2314 7y ago
I'm quite glad that working more hours isn't productive. It's good we have an inate defense against that race to the bottom. Makes the societal battle (imagine it being illegal to work more hours, deemed being unfair competition) a bit easier to win.
wbharding 7y ago
I think we're all rooting for the narrative that it's possible to get ahead working 9-5. But it's hard for me to ignore the survivorship bias at play here. Yes, if your company has a market cap in the billions, you probably don't need to be grinding on the weekends anymore. If you've built a company with amazing programmers and predictable revenue (e.g., dhh/Jason Fried) you probably don't need to grind weekends. But when you're at the front lines, striving to create something new, you'll be competing against very motivated entrepreneurs. These entrepreneurs will often have more resources than you, and zero aversion to working weekends. In those circumstances, Tobi's lifestyle probably isn't going to cut it. When an entrepreneur is working to create that spark, it pays to be completely obsessed, sometimes for years. Thankfully, very few of us are on the front lines struggling to launch something momentous. Tobi once was, but he was smart and surrounded by great people, and now he's in scaling mode, which seems like a much different beast. I'm grateful that he and other successful tech leaders don't force their teams to work as hard as they needed to in the early days.
- achow 7y ago
  I've never worked through a night. The only times I worked more than 40 hours in a week was when I had the burning desire to do so. ...never...
- zorpner 7y ago
  > But it's hard for me to ignore the survivorship bias at play here. Surely it works the other way as well -- for all the stories of people who worked all night to achieve success, there are others about people who either did so and didn't win, or worse yet burnt themselves out or hurt their lives in other ways.
  - k__ 7y ago
    This. Everyone thinks their experience reflects an universal truth. That's the one big error, in my opinion. What I learned in my life is, find your individual way. Don't play other peoples games, play your own game. Pick what you need from the system and throw the rest away. I'm bad at standing up before 12 and even worse at working 40h a week. I'm don't like doing the same stuff for years. I'm bad at networking for work, most people I meet there are just boring or upsetting to me. All these things set me up for failure, still I'm doing better than most of my friends who are better at these things by a mile.
thetrumanshow 7y ago
A few thoughts to add to the discussion, loosely related: 1) If I know exactly where to spend my time for the best rate of return, its likely that I'll have to spend relatively few hours achieving success. 2) For most people, the success they can achieve through just having a plain old job can be had for a mere 40 hours. Anything they want above what 40 hours can grant them should probably be done elsewhere (second job, side-hustle, etc) since the ROI will be very low for spending those additional hours at work. 3) The 80 hour week lifestyle is probably necessary for people who are still frantically doing what Felix Dennis calls "The Search", trying to build a company without the foggiest notion what people want.
- simonw 7y ago
  Study after study has shown that working 80 hours dramatically reduces your productivity during those hours. I loved what Tobi said in this tweet: https://twitter.com/simonw/status/1210622908143415297 https://twitter.com/simonw/status/1210622908143415297 "For creative work, you can't cheat. My believe is that there are 5 creative hours in everyone's day. All I ask of people at Shopify is that 4 of those are channeled into the company." 5 creative hours in a day absolutely matches my experience based on my own career. I can get a HUGE amount done in those 5 hours if I apply them sensibly.
  - simonw 7y ago
    Oops, Twitter link should have been https://twitter.com/tobi/status/1210242188870930433 https://twitter.com/tobi/status/1210242188870930433
  - pastor_elm 7y ago
    If he's asking for 4 hours of work, then why ask for a 40 hour work week and not a 20 hour one? 40 hours (9-6) is rough enough!
    - frank2 7y ago
      I think he's assuming that people are going to spend some fraction of their time at work advancing their careers and maintaining their relationships with coworkers (and that he does not include that time as "creative work").
wrnr 7y ago
Long hours are neither necessary or sufficient to be successful, some have to work long hours just to keep their head above water.
pastor_elm 7y ago
Shopify is obsessed with growth like every other public company. They are nothing like Basecamp. They can get away with shorter hours, maybe, because Canadian salaries are relatively low compared to San Francisco, but something will eventually have to give.
- pat2man 7y ago
  Maybe Shopify’s growth is actually due to their shorter hours. Study after study shows this to be true, but for some reason the Bay Area can’t wrap their minds around that fact. In all likelihood Bay Area companies would be more productive if they forced their employees to go home after 40 hours.
- abledon 7y ago
  whats the average hours for FAANG in SV? 60-65 ?
  - daok 7y ago
    The average is probably around 45. 60-65 are the high hand numbers. Some people in SV do less than 40 real hours of work, a lot 40-45 and some do a few days/weeks of a stretch above 50h but let's not fall into the fallacy that everyone is working +60 hours all the time.
  - kilbuz 7y ago
    It depends what hours you are trying to count. In the office? Remote? Actually 'working'? Including shuttle time? In my FAANG circle, small N, none of those values would be above 40 hours a week, except possibly if you include shuttle time. Certainly not anything approaching an average of 60-65 hours a week. That's averaging a 12-13 hour day, in a 10am-4pm core hour culture.
  - chris11 7y ago
    I'm at a unicorn in the bay area, and I'd say it's under 45. It depends on the day, and I occasionally check on work in the evening, but that's rare. My hours in the office are about 45, but that includes breakfast and a long lunch. I've also been pleasantly surprised about the unlimited vacation. I started late in the year, and the company isn't really busy near Christmas. But I've already taken a decent amount of vacation.
rolltiide 7y ago
In jobs that don't compensate overtime, that have no improved networking component after hours, and suffer from declined cognitive output after 6-8 hours you absolutely shouldnt work longer Success is never defined
dvt 7y ago
What's unfortunate is that on the other side of the coin, "rockstar CEOs" like Elon Musk claim they sleep 4 hours a night and work 90 hour weeks. I think Musk does this mostly for publicity/image reasons and not that it's actually true, but you've got plenty of wantapreneurs parroting this (imo) unhealthy lifestyle.
- tim333 7y ago
  Reddit AMA: >How much do you sleep per night, on average? >ElonMuskOfficial: I actually measured this with my phone! Almost exactly 6 hours on average. The 4 hour thing seems kind of made up by journalists for clickbait as far as I can tell from a brief google. Though he was up last night working on Starship stuff that seems quite cool https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1210649166407438336 https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1210649166407438336
- zarkov99 7y ago
  There is anecdotal information that he does indeed do what he claims. And he is the most impressive CEO in this generation, perhaps in history, so long hours must work for some people.
  - dvt 7y ago
    > ... he is the most impressive CEO in this generation, perhaps in history How anyone can say this with a straight face blows my mind when even in the tech vertical he has some serious competition (are we forgetting about Jeff Bezos, Larry Page, Sergey Brin, Bill Gates, Steve Jobs, etc.), let alone actual historical figures like Henry Ford, John Rockefeller, Cornelius Vanderbilt, etc.
    - CydeWeys 7y ago
      It's too early to judge. If he accomplishes his goal of establishing permanent and self-sustaining human settlements on other worlds then he may end up being the most important person ever, not just CEO. His goals, at least, are ambitious in a way that those of the other people you mentioned aren't (except possibly Bezos, but Bezos doesn't laser focus on this stuff the same way Musk does).
bwb 7y ago
I don't believe anyone really does 80 hours. I just don't think it is possible and I don't think you can call sitting at a desk doing nothing "work". I've done 60 hours during intense periods just fine... but it was only effective because of the nature of the work I was doing at the time. And, I usually took a break down the road to compensate. In no way was it even 50% creative work. 4 to 6 creative hours seems right, but a lot of work isn't creative. There is also the bullshit work that still has to get done, ie, loading up contacts in a CRM, building and nurturing relationships, reviewing emails, checking links, etc etc etc..
- golergka 7y ago
  I just took a single 29-hour workday, right before a major deadline. And coming up to that, didn't have a single off day whole December, typically working from 2pm to 4am. So yeah, it's definitely possible, but really not good for anyone in the long run.
- Consultant32452 7y ago
  I think some of the people who are making claims of really long hours are using amphetamines or other performance enhancing drugs.
  - penagwin 7y ago
    I'm diagnosed with ADD and have a prescription for Ritalin/Concerta. I'm a full time programmer, and I think my sustainable "real work and focus" time is max 6 hours. Today looks more like 4. A higher dose does not increase that time, at least for me. I'm curious how those without add/adhd are affected.
    - whatshisface 7y ago
      I've heard from many people that if you're legitimately on the drug the experience is totally different than if you're taking it without a brain chemistry that needs it i.e. as a study drug. I wonder if that means that people who have ADHD could possibly have different or fewer side-effects than people without, if the two groups respond so differently. Are there any large scale studies about the long term health implications of using Adderall or Vivance without having ADHD?
bhouston 7y ago
Jason Fried was talking about this a few days ago: https://twitter.com/jasonfried/status/1209115637148274690 https://twitter.com/jasonfried/status/1209115637148274690 I wholeheartedly agree as well. The key to working less, while being successful is to focus on what will give you the best rate of return and not doing the things that are not useful. That is really hard to figure out initially though. But I think it gets easier as you get more experienced, as your personal value system gets better tweaked to match reality. This applies to the company as well like Jason Fried said. The company should have clear values that are attuned to market value and it should be professionally run.
keyP 7y ago
I find if you have a exciting project and you've developed a great team (which includes soft-skills; great technical skills does not necessarily make a great employee), I find a lot of team members voluntarily thinking about the project outside of hours or staying late because they want to. Whilst more hours certainly doesn't mean more productivity, the idea of nurturing intrinsic motivation is often omitted in discussions about working late and it's more an implicit by-product of a good working environment.
jariel 7y ago
Me thinks there's a bit of selection bias here. If you're fortunate enough to hit product market fit without too much struggle ... and then can scale it as a regular company - good on you. But I suggest in the early years, it's really not like that for most founders as they pivot and strife. In the scale years, I suggest it probably could be more like that for most company employees and leadership. And FYI I think most companies are like this i.e. more or less 9-to-5, even very well known corps. I also think this might have very much to do with the nature of the technology and the inherent competitiveness/barriers in the category: in companies wherein there's a significant number of talented individuals needed to focus - crunching happens. For example: Pixar films. Apparently people work pretty long and hard to make production work. It involves a lot of specific talent, working together with ambiguous timelines and schedules, last minute creative changes. Spotify seems to be the kind of company perhaps wherein the work can be spread out fairly efficiently thereby enabling not only 9-5 hours, but perhaps more importantly: no need for A+ Valley Top Talent. I know Ottawa very well and there isn't remotely enough raw, high end A+ talent and specialisation of skills to make something like the iPhone. Spotify can be built with a large number of 'smart people' (which Ottawa has aplenty), but I'm doubtful there will ever be an iPhone or 'Toy Story' come out of Ottawa either (though I would desperately like to be wrong).
- leblancfg 7y ago
  s/Spotify/Shopify/g
  - jariel 7y ago
    Yes, of course. Shopify. But weirdly enough - the same might be said of Spotify. In the sense that Stocholm is not the Valley and doesn't have A+ stars in many tech categories. But - because Sweden has a historical special relationship with the music industry, and Spotify requires 'smart people and a few geniuses but not tons of specialised geniuses' - Stockholm might make a better choice than the Valley. One thing about Sweden though - they hit way above their weight in other, more classical industries. They're a small country that makes massive international brands, car companies - for gosh sakes they make the most complicated product category: Jet fighters. Mind you, not all of it, especially the engines, but making a 'Jet Figther' requires A+ players across a broad set of industrial categories, including a diplomatic corps that's deeply and efficiently embedded with industry, as many European countries have. Canada does not have this at all, and is probably last place in the OECD for this kind of economic cooperation.
Reedx 7y ago
Long hours aren't necessary for success, and you should do what works for you, but they’re needed if you're aiming for the top in your field. It's an inconvenient truth, but you're not going to be able to reach the John Carmacks of the world if you're working 40 and they're working 60: https://twitter.com/id_aa_carmack/status/1210593150303031296 https://twitter.com/id_aa_carmack/status/1210593150303031296 Anyone who thinks he would've achieved the same with far fewer hours are just kidding themselves and pulling crabs down into the bucket. Also implicit in that is Carmack being a fool for working 60, when he would've been as or more(!) effective with less? Nonsense.
- wiwillia 7y ago
  Founding and being the CEO of Shopify, a $48bn company and one of the best-performing stocks of the last few years, isn't "the top"? Different people have different styles that work for them. Some people love to work 60+ hours and are productive doing it, others get more and better work done when they limit themselves to 40 and take time off. What works for you/Tobi/John doesn't universally work for others.
BadassFractal 7y ago
In a "fresh out of school / fresh out of first job founder-wanting-to-build-a-startup" context, you often start with no connections, no capital, no world-class skills, no team, no game-changing idea. The only variable you can control is the amount of effort (time) you put into the venture trying to find something that works before you can no longer afford ramen. The hours are justified in that scenario, because you have no other resource to leverage outside of time. Years later, when you're already comfortable, have a rich network of experts and trusted past associates, have easy access to capital, have decades of experience of building businesses, and a deep understanding of an industry of two? Yeah, you don't need the long hours, you're fine.
shanemlk 7y ago
The word "work" is not specific enough in this context, and this whole discussion lacks nuance. When we talk about "work" are we talking about renting your own time, or building something you have a stake in? Does a side project that may give you insight into your main focus apply as work? Does reading and curiosity count as work? I spend nearly every waking hour trying to be successful... is that work? I'd like to introduce the word "toil" into the discussion. Elon Musk may "work" 100 hours a week, but there's no chance he's "toiling" 100 hours a week.
misterman0 7y ago
I think it's wrong to celebrate a company that claims 80% of what it is to be you, even when other companies claim even more. I question the reason behind us devoting ourselves to these undemocratic structures.
- richardlblair 7y ago
  I worked at Shopify for 4 1/2 years. I was happy to devote those creative hours because I believe in the mission. It's where I wanted my energy to be spent, and this was the general sentiment. You have to remember most of the people who work there can work almost anywhere. They have specifically chosen to dedicate 80% of their creative energy at Shopify.
  - thor24 7y ago
    Why did you leave? (I am just curious) I am considering applying for the company in the coming months.
    - richardlblair 7y ago
      I needed some serious change in my life. Stepping away from Shopify was very difficult, but felt like a good first step in where I was personally. Honestly, I think about going back almost weekly. It's a fantastic company.
rajacombinator 7y ago
If you hit the product market fit jackpot, long hours aren’t necessary. Until then, most of us have to grind it out.
gremlinsinc 7y ago
1st week of December, I did 87 hours clocked on clockify for clients. I turn clock off when I go to the bathroom, or get distracted on HN/Reddit. It's only on while I'm coding. But I get burnt out fast when on a schedule like that, and knew I'd have some downtime with holidays and need to fill up on work to pay bills in January. Definitely couldn't sustain hours like that unless I was CEO and it was my baby then I'd be more apt to just keep going because it's a passion project.
bertr4nd 7y ago
I always like Richard Hamming’s take on hours worked: “ Knowledge and productivity are like compound interest.'' Given two people of approximately the same ability and one person who works ten percent more than the other, the latter will more than twice outproduce the former.” (From “You and Your Research”: https://www.cs.virginia.edu/~robins/YouAndYourResearch.html https://www.cs.virginia.edu/~robins/YouAndYourResearch.html) I started incorporating this thinking into my own work schedule, and I believe it to be true. I certainly found that I grew incredibly quickly in my abilities when I started working more (as long as I was applying the hours intelligently, which is admittedly its own trick)
- dangero 7y ago
  I think this is the generally accepted and obvious view, but there seems to be a push from several popular personalities to virtue signal against it in the name of better working conditions. In the process they are accusing startup founders of abusing their workforce if they mention such an idea as working a little extra to get ahead.
  - webdood90 7y ago
    You have summed it up perfectly. It's infuriating to read through the bullshit these personalities are perpetuating without reasonable discourse.
  - Crusoe123 7y ago
    As they very well should. If startup founders want to work extra - let them. But when they create a culture where they expect everyone to give the same extreme amount of sacrifice and work while they stand to gain only a fraction of what those who own the capital or have power in running the companies will gain - that is something that should be fought against as vigorously as possible on every level of society - culture, law etc. So I applaud this "virtue signaling" and call it common sense.
    - dangero 7y ago
      Wait but what if the founder believes that long hours do in fact get you ahead? What if that is part of what they actually did to get where they are today? Should they lie about it?
hintymad 7y ago
These successful people sound like working long hours is an absolute evil. I think they underestimate the effort that an ordinary person needs to be even moderately successful. What if it takes me twice as long to debug a problem as my team's standard? What if a concept is so simple to everyone else in my team yet it's just so hard for me to understand? What if I see an opportunity to build a truly great product, yet I don't have the required technical background while I have at most two weeks to catch up? What if I really want to tap into machine learning yet I have meetings all day, so my only choice is to study after work? Now, before you ask me to switch my career, what if I do have a passion in tech and I'm even worse at doing anything else? See? Working long hours sometimes is not a burden, but a choice, a choice that one makes to master what they love, and to make sure they won't regret wasting their life when looking back years later. And sometimes working long hours, as long as it's voluntary, is the only way to succeed.
- zeruch 7y ago
  If it's a choice, that is fine. If it's an assumed baseline that management leverages to squeeze ever more "productivity" out of people without compensating them for it, then its not. If the latter, I guarantee you will have just as much regret looking back years later. The 'voluntary' part is the gray area that most seem to talk around.
  - hintymad 7y ago
    True
- GVIrish 7y ago
  The whole argument is not about temporary spikes in hours to meet a goal, it's about the wrong-headed idea that one should be working 60-80+ hours on a long term basis. Some of the proponents of long term overwork argue that it is a requirement for big successes in entrepreneurship or that people must be willing to burn themselves out to 'change the world' or other such nonsense. Working long hours on a short term basis is not evil, but there are quite a few organizations exploiting their employees in a chase for big exits that those employees will never benefit from.
krishsai 7y ago
Long hours or continuous working exhausts. This does not lead to productive work. Creative work is key and that depends upon flexibility.
ixtli 7y ago
This is really a lovely thread. In general I loathe working at large companies and try to avoid it, but this really changes my perception of Shopify. The fact is that people who say they work 80 hours don't really do it. If they ever do it it's a rare event in the totality of their labor.
nif2ee 7y ago
let's see what happens if he starts today all over again. He forgot to mention the most important thing, that he was at the right place and right time. No matter how you come up with a 1000x better Shopify today, you most probably won't go anywhere. Many clunky business projects that were started with the rise of social media (around 2004-2013) made their owners kings ONLY because they were at the right place and time. The free ride is over. His argument is mostly bullshit for anyone starting today, the internet is much more centralized and you can't go viral unless you spend a fortune assuming having a superior product. It's a billion times harder today to succeed with a great product today than with a barely average one 15 years ago.
- GVIrish 7y ago
  I don't think that argument holds at all. The low hanging fruit from 10 years ago has been picked. But in a lot of ways we only see it as low hanging fruit in hindsight. Today there are new business opportunities that in 10 years will seem like they were low hanging fruit. There are new technologies today that will enable new businesses that wouldn't have been feasible before. Even then, there are only going to be but so many companies that get to the kind of scale of Shopify and that was true 15 years ago, and it's true today. But there is plenty of room for new small and medium sized companies to make millions of dollars. Success doesn't always have to be at the 3 comma level.
  - nif2ee 7y ago
    I get your argument and I appreciate it. But the nature of those low hanging fruit are more complicated today. For example, you can't just recreate Twitter, Facebook, Reddit today in your home with a couple of friends with no solid experience. You similarly can't start most successful SaaS ideas that were started in 2010-2014. Most successful YouTubers started their channels around 2008-2011. This was a time when you could make a very successful venture relying on the viral marketing by social media and Google search. Nowadays, this is over. You can go and try this same hippie way for starting a small business today but your chances of success are 1000x lower. The internet is much bigger, and it's much more centralized and concentrated and the competition is much more harsher.
nathanvanfleet 7y ago
I remember when I applied to work there as an iOS engineer and they didn't even phone screen me because I didn't have a strong enough social media profile.
- andruby 7y ago
  Did they communicate this reason to you? That seems like a ridiculous requirement. Especially for engineers.
patrickdavey 7y ago
In my opinion there's absolutely nothing to be proud about in working long hours for long stretches. All you're doing is setting up or maintaining a completely unmaintainable situation. If you're finding you have to work > 40 hours regularly, someone is making and signing off on bad estimates. If you're salaried, and you're working extra hours regularly, all you're doing is reducing your effective hourly rate.
neo4sure 7y ago
If Tesla took Shopify's advice it will be dead right now. Every scenario is different.
CitrusFruits 7y ago
I think the shortening of "financial and business success" to "success" can be a bit unfortunate. My big metric for success is currently how many hours I can spend on my bike a week while still feeding myself and providing for loved ones responsibly.
cdiddy2 7y ago
Its funny following this story since I saw the original tweet from Ryan Selkis a crypto twitter entrepreneur. https://twitter.com/twobitidiot/status/1209443243924045825 https://twitter.com/twobitidiot/status/1209443243924045825 It has spread to take over twitter and spawned articles and CEOs of large companies weighing in, and now on hacker news. Fascinating to watch where our news starts from and how it spreads
vgchh 7y ago
The reality is that there is no single answer. There are companies like Shopify that are able to build a platform while encouraging work-life balance. And then there are companies like Tesla, where employees are expected to forgo work-life balance. I think it comes down to how quickly you as a company may die if left on autopilot. I am going to guess that Shopify had near death moments, but probably fewer. OTOH, Tesla, remains in the default dead territory even now, that they are close to shipping half a million cars per year. That said, a great work-life balance is great to strive for, just that depending on what your company does, it may or may not happen soon enough.
- dmix 7y ago
  Shopify started off selling snowboards on the internet, Elon took on one of the most powerful, politically connected, and entrenched industries head-on. There’s always going to be significant differences in the business dynamics and the public pressure on Tesla and their crew was insane. Unfortunately that shit rolls downhill sometimes and it’s hard to control. Shopify also never faced the massive and constant vitriol and naysayers from day one. It was a massive play out of the gate, not a hockey stick growth but a massive capital investment covering multiple very difficult verticles all at once from design to operations to production and managing a very expensive and risky customer lifespan and regulatory risk for every car sold. Not to downplay how hard it is to do what Shopify accomplished, which was significant and very admirable. But ultimately it’s comparing apples to oranges at a high level like that.
samwestdev 7y ago
> For creative work, you can't cheat. My believe is that there are 5 creative hours in everyone's day. All I ask of people at Shopify is that 4 of those are channeled into the company. He's practically asking to put company success before personal growth. That's incredibly selfish if you ask me.
- MattConfluence 7y ago
  That's not how I read it. Some others, with job titles similar to him, speak of "giving 110%" and how their employees are so dedicated to the company, they gladly take on overtime and crunch and whatnot. This seems refreshingly honest to me in comparison. Using his math, there's 35 creative hours per person per week; assuming a 5-day work week, he's _paying_ for 20 of those and leaving 15 for personal growth. Sure, some might prefer a different ratio, but at least he's acknowledging that there needs to be a balance.
wesleywt 7y ago
Working long hours is for the poor who need to make the rent. Not for successful.

552 points by sjs 7y ago

Original thread on twitter: https://twitter.com/tobi/status/1210242184341000192?s=20 https://twitter.com/tobi/status/1210242184341000192?s=20

keyP 7y ago
I've unrolled the thread for easier reading https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1210242184341000192.html https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1210242184341000192.html
dang 7y ago
Thanks! We changed the URL to that from https://www.businessinsider.com/shopify-ceo-success-long-hours-40-hour-week-2019-12 https://www.businessinsider.com/shopify-ceo-success-long-hou..., which is mostly just reporting on it. What does the s=20 do?
- ivl 7y ago
  > What does the s=20 do? Seems to be tacked on by Twitter to track the source of shares. Pretty sure the number changes by device.
  - mcpherrinm 7y ago
    s=20 is shared from mobile website (iOS and android tested). 21 is iOS app. Don't have others to test offhand. There's a Twitter thread from a few years ago where a few folk collected a bunch of them, but I can't find it anymore.

pmoriarty 7y ago

"I've never worked through a night. The only times I worked more than 40 hours in a week was when I had the burning desire to do so. I need 8ish hours of sleep a night. Same with everybody else, whether we admit it or not" So he didn't. What about his employees? Not to imply that long hours are necessary. I think they're abhorrent. But they're also endemic. Some bosses do get away with working shorter hours while they flog their employees to work like crazy. On the other hand, workaholism at many companies tends to gets worse and worse as you gain responsibility, and some of the most insane hours are worked by those near the top.

thebradbain 7y ago
I can't speak on behalf of the entire company (or even a portion of it), but anecdotally, my colleague previously worked at Shopify and said the atmosphere and culture there was very laid back. Taken in conjunction with the Twitter thread the CEO wrote, that all seems to check out.
luhn 7y ago
If you read the Twitter thread [0], ostensibly they don't. > For creative work, you can't cheat. My believe is that there are 5 creative hours in everyone's day. All I ask of people at Shopify is that 4 of those are channeled into the company. Obviously Shopify has thousands of employees now, there's very real chance that Tobi's perception does not match the reality of the employees. [0] https://twitter.com/tobi/status/1210242184341000192 https://twitter.com/tobi/status/1210242184341000192
- nrdgrrrl 7y ago
  I work in a non-coding position, way at the bottom of the org chart, and Tobi's vision does filter all the way down to us - mostly. We work a 37.5 hour week and we're strongly discouraged from working beyond the end of our shift (and have the support we need for this to actually be possible). We also have 3-5 hours a week for professional development. Sure it's not a 5 hour work day, but we're also not doing much creative work. It's far better than any other job I've been at.
rogerkirkness 7y ago
I worked there. It's clearly a more focused environment than other SV companies I've seen since. Tobi works hard and does the right thing. I think the challenge was actually the first rung of middle managers not being smart enough to understand the long term focus. That's part that's hard to scale. But the leaders walked the talk and empowered others to do so.
- pmoriarty 7y ago
  "Tobi works hard and does the right thing." What does it mean to "work hard" at a white collar job when you don't work long hours? Honestly curious.

Ericson2314 7y ago

I'm quite glad that working more hours isn't productive. It's good we have an inate defense against that race to the bottom. Makes the societal battle (imagine it being illegal to work more hours, deemed being unfair competition) a bit easier to win.

wbharding 7y ago

I think we're all rooting for the narrative that it's possible to get ahead working 9-5. But it's hard for me to ignore the survivorship bias at play here. Yes, if your company has a market cap in the billions, you probably don't need to be grinding on the weekends anymore. If you've built a company with amazing programmers and predictable revenue (e.g., dhh/Jason Fried) you probably don't need to grind weekends. But when you're at the front lines, striving to create something new, you'll be competing against very motivated entrepreneurs. These entrepreneurs will often have more resources than you, and zero aversion to working weekends. In those circumstances, Tobi's lifestyle probably isn't going to cut it. When an entrepreneur is working to create that spark, it pays to be completely obsessed, sometimes for years. Thankfully, very few of us are on the front lines struggling to launch something momentous. Tobi once was, but he was smart and surrounded by great people, and now he's in scaling mode, which seems like a much different beast. I'm grateful that he and other successful tech leaders don't force their teams to work as hard as they needed to in the early days.

achow 7y ago
I've never worked through a night. The only times I worked more than 40 hours in a week was when I had the burning desire to do so. ...never...
zorpner 7y ago
> But it's hard for me to ignore the survivorship bias at play here. Surely it works the other way as well -- for all the stories of people who worked all night to achieve success, there are others about people who either did so and didn't win, or worse yet burnt themselves out or hurt their lives in other ways.
- k__ 7y ago
  This. Everyone thinks their experience reflects an universal truth. That's the one big error, in my opinion. What I learned in my life is, find your individual way. Don't play other peoples games, play your own game. Pick what you need from the system and throw the rest away. I'm bad at standing up before 12 and even worse at working 40h a week. I'm don't like doing the same stuff for years. I'm bad at networking for work, most people I meet there are just boring or upsetting to me. All these things set me up for failure, still I'm doing better than most of my friends who are better at these things by a mile.

thetrumanshow 7y ago

A few thoughts to add to the discussion, loosely related: 1) If I know exactly where to spend my time for the best rate of return, its likely that I'll have to spend relatively few hours achieving success. 2) For most people, the success they can achieve through just having a plain old job can be had for a mere 40 hours. Anything they want above what 40 hours can grant them should probably be done elsewhere (second job, side-hustle, etc) since the ROI will be very low for spending those additional hours at work. 3) The 80 hour week lifestyle is probably necessary for people who are still frantically doing what Felix Dennis calls "The Search", trying to build a company without the foggiest notion what people want.

simonw 7y ago
Study after study has shown that working 80 hours dramatically reduces your productivity during those hours. I loved what Tobi said in this tweet: https://twitter.com/simonw/status/1210622908143415297 https://twitter.com/simonw/status/1210622908143415297 "For creative work, you can't cheat. My believe is that there are 5 creative hours in everyone's day. All I ask of people at Shopify is that 4 of those are channeled into the company." 5 creative hours in a day absolutely matches my experience based on my own career. I can get a HUGE amount done in those 5 hours if I apply them sensibly.
- simonw 7y ago
  Oops, Twitter link should have been https://twitter.com/tobi/status/1210242188870930433 https://twitter.com/tobi/status/1210242188870930433
- pastor_elm 7y ago
  If he's asking for 4 hours of work, then why ask for a 40 hour work week and not a 20 hour one? 40 hours (9-6) is rough enough!
  - frank2 7y ago
    I think he's assuming that people are going to spend some fraction of their time at work advancing their careers and maintaining their relationships with coworkers (and that he does not include that time as "creative work").

wrnr 7y ago

Long hours are neither necessary or sufficient to be successful, some have to work long hours just to keep their head above water.

pastor_elm 7y ago

Shopify is obsessed with growth like every other public company. They are nothing like Basecamp. They can get away with shorter hours, maybe, because Canadian salaries are relatively low compared to San Francisco, but something will eventually have to give.

pat2man 7y ago
Maybe Shopify’s growth is actually due to their shorter hours. Study after study shows this to be true, but for some reason the Bay Area can’t wrap their minds around that fact. In all likelihood Bay Area companies would be more productive if they forced their employees to go home after 40 hours.
abledon 7y ago
whats the average hours for FAANG in SV? 60-65 ?
- daok 7y ago
  The average is probably around 45. 60-65 are the high hand numbers. Some people in SV do less than 40 real hours of work, a lot 40-45 and some do a few days/weeks of a stretch above 50h but let's not fall into the fallacy that everyone is working +60 hours all the time.
- kilbuz 7y ago
  It depends what hours you are trying to count. In the office? Remote? Actually 'working'? Including shuttle time? In my FAANG circle, small N, none of those values would be above 40 hours a week, except possibly if you include shuttle time. Certainly not anything approaching an average of 60-65 hours a week. That's averaging a 12-13 hour day, in a 10am-4pm core hour culture.
- chris11 7y ago
  I'm at a unicorn in the bay area, and I'd say it's under 45. It depends on the day, and I occasionally check on work in the evening, but that's rare. My hours in the office are about 45, but that includes breakfast and a long lunch. I've also been pleasantly surprised about the unlimited vacation. I started late in the year, and the company isn't really busy near Christmas. But I've already taken a decent amount of vacation.

rolltiide 7y ago

In jobs that don't compensate overtime, that have no improved networking component after hours, and suffer from declined cognitive output after 6-8 hours you absolutely shouldnt work longer Success is never defined

dvt 7y ago

What's unfortunate is that on the other side of the coin, "rockstar CEOs" like Elon Musk claim they sleep 4 hours a night and work 90 hour weeks. I think Musk does this mostly for publicity/image reasons and not that it's actually true, but you've got plenty of wantapreneurs parroting this (imo) unhealthy lifestyle.

tim333 7y ago
Reddit AMA: >How much do you sleep per night, on average? >ElonMuskOfficial: I actually measured this with my phone! Almost exactly 6 hours on average. The 4 hour thing seems kind of made up by journalists for clickbait as far as I can tell from a brief google. Though he was up last night working on Starship stuff that seems quite cool https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1210649166407438336 https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1210649166407438336
zarkov99 7y ago
There is anecdotal information that he does indeed do what he claims. And he is the most impressive CEO in this generation, perhaps in history, so long hours must work for some people.
- dvt 7y ago
  > ... he is the most impressive CEO in this generation, perhaps in history How anyone can say this with a straight face blows my mind when even in the tech vertical he has some serious competition (are we forgetting about Jeff Bezos, Larry Page, Sergey Brin, Bill Gates, Steve Jobs, etc.), let alone actual historical figures like Henry Ford, John Rockefeller, Cornelius Vanderbilt, etc.
  - CydeWeys 7y ago
    It's too early to judge. If he accomplishes his goal of establishing permanent and self-sustaining human settlements on other worlds then he may end up being the most important person ever, not just CEO. His goals, at least, are ambitious in a way that those of the other people you mentioned aren't (except possibly Bezos, but Bezos doesn't laser focus on this stuff the same way Musk does).

bwb 7y ago

I don't believe anyone really does 80 hours. I just don't think it is possible and I don't think you can call sitting at a desk doing nothing "work". I've done 60 hours during intense periods just fine... but it was only effective because of the nature of the work I was doing at the time. And, I usually took a break down the road to compensate. In no way was it even 50% creative work. 4 to 6 creative hours seems right, but a lot of work isn't creative. There is also the bullshit work that still has to get done, ie, loading up contacts in a CRM, building and nurturing relationships, reviewing emails, checking links, etc etc etc..

golergka 7y ago
I just took a single 29-hour workday, right before a major deadline. And coming up to that, didn't have a single off day whole December, typically working from 2pm to 4am. So yeah, it's definitely possible, but really not good for anyone in the long run.
Consultant32452 7y ago
I think some of the people who are making claims of really long hours are using amphetamines or other performance enhancing drugs.
- penagwin 7y ago
  I'm diagnosed with ADD and have a prescription for Ritalin/Concerta. I'm a full time programmer, and I think my sustainable "real work and focus" time is max 6 hours. Today looks more like 4. A higher dose does not increase that time, at least for me. I'm curious how those without add/adhd are affected.
  - whatshisface 7y ago
    I've heard from many people that if you're legitimately on the drug the experience is totally different than if you're taking it without a brain chemistry that needs it i.e. as a study drug. I wonder if that means that people who have ADHD could possibly have different or fewer side-effects than people without, if the two groups respond so differently. Are there any large scale studies about the long term health implications of using Adderall or Vivance without having ADHD?

bhouston 7y ago

Jason Fried was talking about this a few days ago: https://twitter.com/jasonfried/status/1209115637148274690 https://twitter.com/jasonfried/status/1209115637148274690 I wholeheartedly agree as well. The key to working less, while being successful is to focus on what will give you the best rate of return and not doing the things that are not useful. That is really hard to figure out initially though. But I think it gets easier as you get more experienced, as your personal value system gets better tweaked to match reality. This applies to the company as well like Jason Fried said. The company should have clear values that are attuned to market value and it should be professionally run.

keyP 7y ago

I find if you have a exciting project and you've developed a great team (which includes soft-skills; great technical skills does not necessarily make a great employee), I find a lot of team members voluntarily thinking about the project outside of hours or staying late because they want to. Whilst more hours certainly doesn't mean more productivity, the idea of nurturing intrinsic motivation is often omitted in discussions about working late and it's more an implicit by-product of a good working environment.

jariel 7y ago

Me thinks there's a bit of selection bias here. If you're fortunate enough to hit product market fit without too much struggle ... and then can scale it as a regular company - good on you. But I suggest in the early years, it's really not like that for most founders as they pivot and strife. In the scale years, I suggest it probably could be more like that for most company employees and leadership. And FYI I think most companies are like this i.e. more or less 9-to-5, even very well known corps. I also think this might have very much to do with the nature of the technology and the inherent competitiveness/barriers in the category: in companies wherein there's a significant number of talented individuals needed to focus - crunching happens. For example: Pixar films. Apparently people work pretty long and hard to make production work. It involves a lot of specific talent, working together with ambiguous timelines and schedules, last minute creative changes. Spotify seems to be the kind of company perhaps wherein the work can be spread out fairly efficiently thereby enabling not only 9-5 hours, but perhaps more importantly: no need for A+ Valley Top Talent. I know Ottawa very well and there isn't remotely enough raw, high end A+ talent and specialisation of skills to make something like the iPhone. Spotify can be built with a large number of 'smart people' (which Ottawa has aplenty), but I'm doubtful there will ever be an iPhone or 'Toy Story' come out of Ottawa either (though I would desperately like to be wrong).

leblancfg 7y ago
s/Spotify/Shopify/g
- jariel 7y ago
  Yes, of course. Shopify. But weirdly enough - the same might be said of Spotify. In the sense that Stocholm is not the Valley and doesn't have A+ stars in many tech categories. But - because Sweden has a historical special relationship with the music industry, and Spotify requires 'smart people and a few geniuses but not tons of specialised geniuses' - Stockholm might make a better choice than the Valley. One thing about Sweden though - they hit way above their weight in other, more classical industries. They're a small country that makes massive international brands, car companies - for gosh sakes they make the most complicated product category: Jet fighters. Mind you, not all of it, especially the engines, but making a 'Jet Figther' requires A+ players across a broad set of industrial categories, including a diplomatic corps that's deeply and efficiently embedded with industry, as many European countries have. Canada does not have this at all, and is probably last place in the OECD for this kind of economic cooperation.

Reedx 7y ago

Long hours aren't necessary for success, and you should do what works for you, but they’re needed if you're aiming for the top in your field. It's an inconvenient truth, but you're not going to be able to reach the John Carmacks of the world if you're working 40 and they're working 60: https://twitter.com/id_aa_carmack/status/1210593150303031296 https://twitter.com/id_aa_carmack/status/1210593150303031296 Anyone who thinks he would've achieved the same with far fewer hours are just kidding themselves and pulling crabs down into the bucket. Also implicit in that is Carmack being a fool for working 60, when he would've been as or more(!) effective with less? Nonsense.

wiwillia 7y ago
Founding and being the CEO of Shopify, a $48bn company and one of the best-performing stocks of the last few years, isn't "the top"? Different people have different styles that work for them. Some people love to work 60+ hours and are productive doing it, others get more and better work done when they limit themselves to 40 and take time off. What works for you/Tobi/John doesn't universally work for others.

BadassFractal 7y ago

In a "fresh out of school / fresh out of first job founder-wanting-to-build-a-startup" context, you often start with no connections, no capital, no world-class skills, no team, no game-changing idea. The only variable you can control is the amount of effort (time) you put into the venture trying to find something that works before you can no longer afford ramen. The hours are justified in that scenario, because you have no other resource to leverage outside of time. Years later, when you're already comfortable, have a rich network of experts and trusted past associates, have easy access to capital, have decades of experience of building businesses, and a deep understanding of an industry of two? Yeah, you don't need the long hours, you're fine.

shanemlk 7y ago

The word "work" is not specific enough in this context, and this whole discussion lacks nuance. When we talk about "work" are we talking about renting your own time, or building something you have a stake in? Does a side project that may give you insight into your main focus apply as work? Does reading and curiosity count as work? I spend nearly every waking hour trying to be successful... is that work? I'd like to introduce the word "toil" into the discussion. Elon Musk may "work" 100 hours a week, but there's no chance he's "toiling" 100 hours a week.

misterman0 7y ago

I think it's wrong to celebrate a company that claims 80% of what it is to be you, even when other companies claim even more. I question the reason behind us devoting ourselves to these undemocratic structures.

richardlblair 7y ago
I worked at Shopify for 4 1/2 years. I was happy to devote those creative hours because I believe in the mission. It's where I wanted my energy to be spent, and this was the general sentiment. You have to remember most of the people who work there can work almost anywhere. They have specifically chosen to dedicate 80% of their creative energy at Shopify.
- thor24 7y ago
  Why did you leave? (I am just curious) I am considering applying for the company in the coming months.
  - richardlblair 7y ago
    I needed some serious change in my life. Stepping away from Shopify was very difficult, but felt like a good first step in where I was personally. Honestly, I think about going back almost weekly. It's a fantastic company.

rajacombinator 7y ago

If you hit the product market fit jackpot, long hours aren’t necessary. Until then, most of us have to grind it out.

gremlinsinc 7y ago

1st week of December, I did 87 hours clocked on clockify for clients. I turn clock off when I go to the bathroom, or get distracted on HN/Reddit. It's only on while I'm coding. But I get burnt out fast when on a schedule like that, and knew I'd have some downtime with holidays and need to fill up on work to pay bills in January. Definitely couldn't sustain hours like that unless I was CEO and it was my baby then I'd be more apt to just keep going because it's a passion project.

bertr4nd 7y ago

I always like Richard Hamming’s take on hours worked: “ Knowledge and productivity are like compound interest.'' Given two people of approximately the same ability and one person who works ten percent more than the other, the latter will more than twice outproduce the former.” (From “You and Your Research”: https://www.cs.virginia.edu/~robins/YouAndYourResearch.html https://www.cs.virginia.edu/~robins/YouAndYourResearch.html) I started incorporating this thinking into my own work schedule, and I believe it to be true. I certainly found that I grew incredibly quickly in my abilities when I started working more (as long as I was applying the hours intelligently, which is admittedly its own trick)

dangero 7y ago
I think this is the generally accepted and obvious view, but there seems to be a push from several popular personalities to virtue signal against it in the name of better working conditions. In the process they are accusing startup founders of abusing their workforce if they mention such an idea as working a little extra to get ahead.
- webdood90 7y ago
  You have summed it up perfectly. It's infuriating to read through the bullshit these personalities are perpetuating without reasonable discourse.
- Crusoe123 7y ago
  As they very well should. If startup founders want to work extra - let them. But when they create a culture where they expect everyone to give the same extreme amount of sacrifice and work while they stand to gain only a fraction of what those who own the capital or have power in running the companies will gain - that is something that should be fought against as vigorously as possible on every level of society - culture, law etc. So I applaud this "virtue signaling" and call it common sense.
  - dangero 7y ago
    Wait but what if the founder believes that long hours do in fact get you ahead? What if that is part of what they actually did to get where they are today? Should they lie about it?

hintymad 7y ago

These successful people sound like working long hours is an absolute evil. I think they underestimate the effort that an ordinary person needs to be even moderately successful. What if it takes me twice as long to debug a problem as my team's standard? What if a concept is so simple to everyone else in my team yet it's just so hard for me to understand? What if I see an opportunity to build a truly great product, yet I don't have the required technical background while I have at most two weeks to catch up? What if I really want to tap into machine learning yet I have meetings all day, so my only choice is to study after work? Now, before you ask me to switch my career, what if I do have a passion in tech and I'm even worse at doing anything else? See? Working long hours sometimes is not a burden, but a choice, a choice that one makes to master what they love, and to make sure they won't regret wasting their life when looking back years later. And sometimes working long hours, as long as it's voluntary, is the only way to succeed.

zeruch 7y ago
If it's a choice, that is fine. If it's an assumed baseline that management leverages to squeeze ever more "productivity" out of people without compensating them for it, then its not. If the latter, I guarantee you will have just as much regret looking back years later. The 'voluntary' part is the gray area that most seem to talk around.
- hintymad 7y ago
  True
GVIrish 7y ago
The whole argument is not about temporary spikes in hours to meet a goal, it's about the wrong-headed idea that one should be working 60-80+ hours on a long term basis. Some of the proponents of long term overwork argue that it is a requirement for big successes in entrepreneurship or that people must be willing to burn themselves out to 'change the world' or other such nonsense. Working long hours on a short term basis is not evil, but there are quite a few organizations exploiting their employees in a chase for big exits that those employees will never benefit from.

krishsai 7y ago

Long hours or continuous working exhausts. This does not lead to productive work. Creative work is key and that depends upon flexibility.

ixtli 7y ago

This is really a lovely thread. In general I loathe working at large companies and try to avoid it, but this really changes my perception of Shopify. The fact is that people who say they work 80 hours don't really do it. If they ever do it it's a rare event in the totality of their labor.

nif2ee 7y ago

let's see what happens if he starts today all over again. He forgot to mention the most important thing, that he was at the right place and right time. No matter how you come up with a 1000x better Shopify today, you most probably won't go anywhere. Many clunky business projects that were started with the rise of social media (around 2004-2013) made their owners kings ONLY because they were at the right place and time. The free ride is over. His argument is mostly bullshit for anyone starting today, the internet is much more centralized and you can't go viral unless you spend a fortune assuming having a superior product. It's a billion times harder today to succeed with a great product today than with a barely average one 15 years ago.

GVIrish 7y ago
I don't think that argument holds at all. The low hanging fruit from 10 years ago has been picked. But in a lot of ways we only see it as low hanging fruit in hindsight. Today there are new business opportunities that in 10 years will seem like they were low hanging fruit. There are new technologies today that will enable new businesses that wouldn't have been feasible before. Even then, there are only going to be but so many companies that get to the kind of scale of Shopify and that was true 15 years ago, and it's true today. But there is plenty of room for new small and medium sized companies to make millions of dollars. Success doesn't always have to be at the 3 comma level.
- nif2ee 7y ago
  I get your argument and I appreciate it. But the nature of those low hanging fruit are more complicated today. For example, you can't just recreate Twitter, Facebook, Reddit today in your home with a couple of friends with no solid experience. You similarly can't start most successful SaaS ideas that were started in 2010-2014. Most successful YouTubers started their channels around 2008-2011. This was a time when you could make a very successful venture relying on the viral marketing by social media and Google search. Nowadays, this is over. You can go and try this same hippie way for starting a small business today but your chances of success are 1000x lower. The internet is much bigger, and it's much more centralized and concentrated and the competition is much more harsher.

nathanvanfleet 7y ago

I remember when I applied to work there as an iOS engineer and they didn't even phone screen me because I didn't have a strong enough social media profile.

andruby 7y ago
Did they communicate this reason to you? That seems like a ridiculous requirement. Especially for engineers.

patrickdavey 7y ago

In my opinion there's absolutely nothing to be proud about in working long hours for long stretches. All you're doing is setting up or maintaining a completely unmaintainable situation. If you're finding you have to work > 40 hours regularly, someone is making and signing off on bad estimates. If you're salaried, and you're working extra hours regularly, all you're doing is reducing your effective hourly rate.

neo4sure 7y ago

If Tesla took Shopify's advice it will be dead right now. Every scenario is different.

CitrusFruits 7y ago

I think the shortening of "financial and business success" to "success" can be a bit unfortunate. My big metric for success is currently how many hours I can spend on my bike a week while still feeding myself and providing for loved ones responsibly.

cdiddy2 7y ago

Its funny following this story since I saw the original tweet from Ryan Selkis a crypto twitter entrepreneur. https://twitter.com/twobitidiot/status/1209443243924045825 https://twitter.com/twobitidiot/status/1209443243924045825 It has spread to take over twitter and spawned articles and CEOs of large companies weighing in, and now on hacker news. Fascinating to watch where our news starts from and how it spreads

vgchh 7y ago

The reality is that there is no single answer. There are companies like Shopify that are able to build a platform while encouraging work-life balance. And then there are companies like Tesla, where employees are expected to forgo work-life balance. I think it comes down to how quickly you as a company may die if left on autopilot. I am going to guess that Shopify had near death moments, but probably fewer. OTOH, Tesla, remains in the default dead territory even now, that they are close to shipping half a million cars per year. That said, a great work-life balance is great to strive for, just that depending on what your company does, it may or may not happen soon enough.

dmix 7y ago
Shopify started off selling snowboards on the internet, Elon took on one of the most powerful, politically connected, and entrenched industries head-on. There’s always going to be significant differences in the business dynamics and the public pressure on Tesla and their crew was insane. Unfortunately that shit rolls downhill sometimes and it’s hard to control. Shopify also never faced the massive and constant vitriol and naysayers from day one. It was a massive play out of the gate, not a hockey stick growth but a massive capital investment covering multiple very difficult verticles all at once from design to operations to production and managing a very expensive and risky customer lifespan and regulatory risk for every car sold. Not to downplay how hard it is to do what Shopify accomplished, which was significant and very admirable. But ultimately it’s comparing apples to oranges at a high level like that.

samwestdev 7y ago

> For creative work, you can't cheat. My believe is that there are 5 creative hours in everyone's day. All I ask of people at Shopify is that 4 of those are channeled into the company. He's practically asking to put company success before personal growth. That's incredibly selfish if you ask me.

MattConfluence 7y ago
That's not how I read it. Some others, with job titles similar to him, speak of "giving 110%" and how their employees are so dedicated to the company, they gladly take on overtime and crunch and whatnot. This seems refreshingly honest to me in comparison. Using his math, there's 35 creative hours per person per week; assuming a 5-day work week, he's _paying_ for 20 of those and leaving 15 for personal growth. Sure, some might prefer a different ratio, but at least he's acknowledging that there needs to be a balance.

wesleywt 7y ago

Working long hours is for the poor who need to make the rent. Not for successful.