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Please don't rearrange our shoes when we turn up, paramedics in Japan urge
- swiftcoder 10d agoIt is mind blowing to me that the shoes-off-inside rule is so deeply entrenched that emergency responders remove their shoes at the front door
- arjie 10d agoWhen I was a child in India, I was taught (not by my parents, by the societal milieu I suppose) to not let the (soles of?) my feet touch a book or a bag that contains books of knowledge. In any case, the behavior is a strongly trained habit so I feel compelled to do it. I do not choose or or not choose to do it. It is close to an automatic behavior, something like wrinkling one’s nose at a bad smell or so on. I was not brought up in a religious household and have never been a follower of any known religion. And I do not have any belief tied to this behavior. It is an oddity of my being that I accept. Isn’t it interesting how one can be conditioned so? I sometimes wonder if alcoholics or drug addicts feel this way. Perhaps the Japanese feel this way about their cultural quirk in the way I feel about mine.
- fakedang 10d agoMost (literate, educated) Indians have been trained the same, and it has very little to do with religion. When you do accidentally step on a book though, each religion has their own format - Hindus touch the book then touch their head then chest in penance, Muslims lightly kiss the book or touch the book/bag and kiss their hand, Christians touch the book and cross themselves. This is something I've noticed is uniquely culturally Indian, and transcends all religions. Which is beautiful. I was once whacked in the head by a teacher for throwing a book onto the shelf, and rightly so.
- arjie 10d agoPerhaps it is regional. Where I grew up the error-repair gesture varied certainly (forehead, lips, etc.) but I went to Catholic school for a while and I do not recall the distinction being neatly by religion but my memory isn’t that sharp of that period of my childhood. Considering the rationale offered by Hindus, I’d be inclined to believe it is a Hindu custom adopted by everyone else by virtue of relative numbers. Sort of like how Christmas is secular in the US, Diwali in India, and perhaps weaker something like Eid in Jordan. So I agree, very little to do with religion today, but perhaps not so always. Something like Halloween perhaps.
- djeastm 10d agoThe behavior sounds like superstition. Is there a belief that something bad will happen if the ritual is not performed?
- vikramkr 10d agoCan't speak for op for but me no - it was just ingrained as something disrespectful to do to books. Sometimes you've got a taboo like eating with your left hand that has a pretty clear reason for coming into existence (you use your left hand to clean up in the bathroom and before hand soap in the era of everyone dying from cholera might as well keep those functions as physically separated as possible) but this is more just something you would be disrespectful to do
- Der_Einzige 9d agoAll of this crap including taking your shoes off indoors is predicated on superstitions that are simply not politically correct to call out.
- kelnos 9d agoThe book thing, sure, but I take my shoes off indoors because they are dirty and gross, and I don't want that tracked into my home.
- srean 9d ago
- cromka 10d agoYes, I think that it's a good example where politeness and respect ingrained in society can be taken a step too far. I don't want my rescuers waste 30-45s on taking shoes off and after I had a stroke and minutes decide whether or not I ended up with a permanent brain damage...
- makeitdouble 10d agoTBF getting shoes on and off is literally 2s. There's photos in the article, those aren't dress shoes with laces to be done and undone, they're fit for the purpose. Also in cases where it's really dire they'll just step in with shoes on, it's just extremely rare and it might actually be another team altogether, operating under a different protocol.
- embedding-shape 10d ago> TBF getting shoes on and off is literally 2s. What about when you're three people while carrying a person? According to the article, it can delay them by ~30 seconds and risk dislodging the oxygen mask, the linked video also demonstrates the difference: https://www.instagram.com/p/DbqGfGfox3f/ https://www.instagram.com/p/DbqGfGfox3f/ Might seem like a small difference, but add in a stressful situation with a person almost dying, maybe being in pain, and the emergency workers trying to keep calm while also suddenly not finding their shoes in the position they purposefully left them, and suddenly the difference might be much large and also impactful.
- makeitdouble 10d agoI'd look at it from the lens of the situation near the door changing in unexpected ways. Like turning the thumblock, moving the bench, shoving other people's shoes in the way etc. There is a myriad of things the patient's family can do that result in 30s delays. Sure removing one specific potential cause could have value, but it might not be worth it considering the downsides (someone will have to deal with the mess, sometimes the lone elderly who's already in pain but not 30s from death either) I think too many people are focusing on the "emergency" part, when most of the interventions aren't about shoving off every second. Other commentators picked up on the ambulances rolling into intersections at a snail's pace while blasting their sirens full volume, because they care a lot more about secundary harm than reaching the hospital 10s earlier.
- makeitdouble 10d agoThese people will handle emergencies, but at a notch or two below fully equiped firefighters breaking the door and ready to deal with everything falling apart. For instance for an elderly couple living together but both being pretty weak, if one's oxygen level was falling they probably couldn't get to the hospital for a full checkup by themselves. They'll call for help, these people will come, fit the patient with anything needed to safely make the trip, and move them out of the appartment to the nearest hospital. There will be no need to trash the floor in precipitation, and they might spend some time in the appartement to properly access the situation and make it safe. They'll still want to be able to evacuate the person quickly if/when needed, but there will be a lot more to consider as well.
- tdeck 10d agoPeople in Japan not only take their shoes off at home, but also in many other places as well. Most elementary schools and many doctors offices, eye doctors, etc.. have you take your shoes off, although it varies from place to place. Some restaurants require you to take your shoes off. I once visited a radio station and they took their shoes off there too for some reason (no, I don't believe it was ESD related). So people are already doing this multiple times a day at their own homes and form a habit that often doesn't require much thought to follow.
- setopt 10d agoSounds wonderful. I remove my shoes in the office as well, since not doing so has led to health issues in the past, but it’s not so hygienic when everyone from colleagues to cleaning staff visit your office with their shoes on. (Where I live, this is the norm at home, but not at office or public places.)
- Aerroon 10d ago>I once visited a radio station and they took their shoes off there too for some reason (no, I don't believe it was ESD related). Isn't it reasonable/normal to take shoes off at work and put on indoor does like sandals or similar ("work shoes")? Obviously it depends on the job, but it seems reasonable to me at a radio station. And if the regular employees are wearing indoor shoes, then it might become normal for outdoor shoes to not be typically worn inside.
- tdeck 9d agoI don't have an opinion about whether it's reasonable, but in the U.S. I have never seen it. Maybe in a daycare. And people wear street shoes in many offices in Japan.
- odiroot 10d agoI always wondered what happens if police forcibly enter someone's flat in these places. Do they ram the doors and then politely take off their shoes before entering? I see a comedy potential.
- bamboozled 10d agoI guess Japanese could say the same thing in reverse ?
- swiftcoder 9d agoOh, for sure. It's definitely one of these things that's only surprising because our cultural context is very different
- rdmuser 11d agoGot posted a couple times recently. This one got a couple comments: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49474734 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49474734
- swingandamiss 10d agoMore Japanese obsessed hacker news posts. What's up with this? There's a daily post on HN of various topics, usually something obscure, about Japan. Why?
- gverrilla 10d agoit's related to fascist ideas of japanese people being unique and people in the west joining that stupid 'philosophy'.
- oliculipolicula 10d agoAs I understand it, Japan is seen to be like a parallel universe where the American South successfully seceded but became technologically advanced, even surpassing the North in some areas (by adopting a Meiji type constitutional monarchy)
- eqvinox 10d agoHaving been to Japan several times… and actually studying Japanese studies… I can see why you're saying this but it's very superficial. None of the southern "essence" that caused the split & war is there in Japan at this point. Or do you mean it's as if the South seceded, then proceeded to lose anyway due their policies being a natural disadvantage, and then developed, out-northing the North? What is characteristic of "the American South" here?
- LPisGood 10d agoPresumably the characteristic being referred to is superficial politeness mixed with racism or xenophobia.
- eqvinox 10d agoThat does actually kinda make sense, but it works very differently... the politeness is anything but superficial (even counters the racism and xenophobia to a limited degree, but also hides it, coming out to ±0), and the latter two are indeed present but coded as to be ashamed of rather than proud… (unfortunately the coding of shame is also different and doesn't spurn action). It actually makes it harder to tackle the discrimination, since it's not openly admitted. Glass walls and ceiling. (Recommended read: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burakumin https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burakumin 'There is a "virtual taboo" in the Japanese media against discussing the topic, leading to widespread public ignorance.')
- shdon 10d agoIn Dutch culture it is far more common to keep shoes on literally everywhere, so perhaps I'm biased, but I would think that in an emergency where every second counts, these people can be forgiven for not adhering to the strictest etiquette? I'm not surprised the person last mentioned in the article, who suggests exactly that, got 800 likes on their comment. I am surprised that it even needed to be said. Now I'm suddenly wondering (probably stupidly) whether firefighters also take their shoes off when entering a burning building.
- cannonpr 10d agoSo, I can’t honestly personally understand taking your shoes off in an emergency, however I am sure they have gotten very efficient at it.. I can say that if they didn’t it would cause damage to the home, many Japanese homes, especially traditional but also in general just aren’t built to take shoes. Tatami mats, and even hinoki floors despite being “hard” for a softwood, is still a softwood, so some level of genuine damage would occur. Again of-course versus the emergency in saving a human life, I’m not quite sure I can understand it.
- Cthulhu_ 10d agoAlso in the Netherlands, doctors / nurses in my local hospital wear things like crocs and other slip-in type shoes - don't think paramedics do, just something I noticed.
- deleted 10d ago[deleted]
- f33d5173 10d agoMost shoes have rubber soles, to do damage to the floor it would have to be softer than rubber.
- Gigachad 10d agoYou can quite easily have small rocks wedged in the tread of your shoes which will scratch floors.
- JuniperMesos 10d ago> Another user attracted more than 800 likes for suggesting that strict etiquette could perhaps be forsaken at such times: “It’s an emergency. I would just tell them: ‘Please step inside with your shoes on!’” This seems like the best policy in an emergency where 30 seconds actually matters. And I actually like the East Asian custom of taking one's shoes off before entering a house and adopt it myself.
- Izkata 10d agoWhere I grew up (suburbs in the Midwest in the US) it was common and expected all around that you'd leave your shoes just inside the door and walk around in your socks, at least for family/friends/guests. Can't remember about service workers.
- vkazanov 10d agoIs this how most of the world operates? :-)
- bjelkeman-again 10d agoIn the Nordics (SE, FI, NO, DK) it is pretty much the same. A large part of the year your shoes are a mess and you don’t want that indoors.
- vkazanov 10d agoYeah! Same for finland, the baltic states, or poland, or russia, or any country really where there is any kind of serious winter happening.
- jillesvangurp 10d agoWhen I worked in Helsinki, it was quite common to see people do this in the office as well. Some people that were otherwise appropriately dressed (business casual) would be walking around on slippers. Always thought that was slightly funny. Very practical though. I had some rugged hiking boots that I wore in the winter there that definitely would come off when I got to work.
- krupan 10d agoDoes everyone in Japan wear slip-on shoes?
- wahnfrieden 10d agoNo
- naishoya 10d agoum, pretty much, yes. Even when it looks like a laced up tennis shoe, closer examination of an 'outdoor' shoe will show that it has been stomped into and slipped out of many times. If it is a sports use, i.e. basketball or other gymnasium, or indoors in a professional setting like at a busy office there will be a changing area and people etiher change into provided slippers (town hall and community centers, schools, and other public spaces have many cubicles and slippers) or will change into 'indoor shoes' brought for the purpose. There is a strong cultural 'habit' that can be interpreted as 'manners' such that when visiting someone's house and switching from outdoor shoes the host will then either turn the shoes toward the outdoors such that they are easier to step into on the way out, or will arrange them facing out but no longer in the main path of the entry way. It is this 'manners' which the EMT is requesting to stop. The indoor slippers are used for hard floor and rug covered areas, but not tatami mats. A quality tatami mat can be damaged and require actual replacement if stepped on with a hard soled shoe even once. So the 'taking off of shoes on the way in my EMT is quite appropriate, and the time to 'unshoe' and reshoe on the way in and out is cumulatively not more than 5 to 7 seconds total - if the emergency case is that close to failure, the low speed ambulance ride through narrow streets is going to be the failure, not the shoes. But rearranged and relocated shoes becomes much more complex when the crew have a person in a stretcher (which is faster AND safer than a rolling gurney) - they can step into their own shoes without really even looking if the shoes are left exactly as they were placed on the way in - and this is what the original article is requesting. The intent of the article in original Japanese is: "Don't slow down the exit process by moving our shoes in an effort to be 'mindful of good manners'. We really wont think poorly of your manners if you neglect this small gesture"
- 10d ago
- theonething 10d agotangential, but I don't understand why keeping your shoes on in your house is a thing. It's so unsanitary. The bottom of your shoes are in contact with things like the floor of public bathrooms, animal feces (when walking on grass), dirt, mud, etc. And it's so much more comfortable to be in your house barefoot, with socks or with slippers. So much cleaner. I'm disgusted when people try to walk in my house with their shoes on.
- wpm 10d agoI'm the same way but if I pass out in my house I absolutely do not give a shit about any of that and don't want the EMTs wasting time taking their shoes off to save my ass.
- WD-42 10d agoPlus walking barefoot in your home is a good way to sense when you need to sweep or vacuum.
- lokar 10d agoI’d say it’s a good way to tell when you should have swept up a few days ago.
- bigstrat2003 10d agoThere's nothing unsanitary about it. The bottoms of your shoes simply are not that dirty unless you're walking through abnormally dirty situations.
- Georgelemental 10d agoHere in America, EMS personnel generally wear tall, reinforced boots; they are considered protective/safety equipment. We would never take them off just to enter a home
- eqvinox 10d agoProbably the same in most Western countries. It's self reinforcing though; if you were expecting to take them off you'd never pick those shoes by default, rather leave them in the back of the car (which presumably/hopefully is what they do in Japan, in case they *do* need them? idk…)
- agarwaen163 10d agoif you do need them you're not going to have time to go get them as an Emergency Responder. I think the pragmatic course then is to disregard etiquette and tradition for safety and practicality in a general sense.
- eqvinox 10d agoEveryone except the driver has ample time to swap boots during the drive to the location. (In cases where not, I'd also default to robust safety boots.) Depending on the boots, you might not want to wear them while "idle"¹ in any case, though that's mostly a non-concern with modern safety shoes. ¹ mandatory note: most emergency responders have tons of work while "idle", I just mean "not actively responding"
- Georgelemental 10d agoYou don't always know what the location is like though. You are called to an apartment: maybe it is spotlessly clean, maybe the floor is littered with used needles
- left-struck 10d agoThat would be very unlikely in Japan, maybe it would happen a handful of times in your career and you could indeed put on safer boots. Anyway I’m not against paramedics wearing boots in my apartment, in an emergency very few people would care about that even in Japan.
- anigbrowl 10d agoFirefighters in Japan wear boots and keep them on, but fire is generally cause for demolition anyway due to the way most homes are constructed. The Japanese shoe taboo is about purity. It's not about protecting the floor but about the idea of cleanliness. Walking in with outdoor shoes is the equivalent of deliberately walking into a western home with dogshit all over your shoes, or (since most Japanese homes have small family altars inside) spiritual desecration.
- vkazanov 10d agoPeople in the west tend to overthink spirituality. Having been to houses/flats across all of eurasia, uk to hong kong, vietnam to lithuania, the majority prefers taking shoes when entering a house, but can be as practical as necessary when the need arises.
- thih9 10d ago> Another user attracted more than 800 likes for suggesting that strict etiquette could perhaps be forsaken at such times: “It’s an emergency. I would just tell them: ‘Please step inside with your shoes on!’”
- purpleidea 10d agoIn Canada, we wear steel-toe, steel-shank safety boots, and we're kind of required to keep them on. We surely give them a good clunk to get rid of mud or snow, particularly in the winter, and we try to wipe our feet as much as possible when it's not a dire emergency, but you called 911, so... your floor is going to get dirty. Might already have blood on it anyways.
- embedding-shape 10d agoSame, even in countries I live/lived where not taking off shoes indoors is borderline a social crime, paramedics, emergency services and even craftspeople/tradespeople would typically not take off their shoes when entering your home. Personally I got so tired of it we got those "one-use blue shoe covers" that we tell them to wear before going in, but of course I don't think either of us would think about that if we called for emergency services.
- zorobo 10d agoWhen we shifted houses and used a Japanese moving company, I was very surprised as movers removed their shoes every time they stepped into our places, both old and new. Oh, they also had gloves on when packing our plates and utensils!
- pvaldes 10d agoThere are emergencies and emergencies, but removing your protective gear when you are entering in a emergency scenery is an horrible idea by several reasons. After thousands of interventions in this places, you are basically guaranteed to step while in your sockets on blood, syringes, broken bottles and glass pieces. Awful idea. Your toes smashing the leg of a table if you have luck. Hepatitis or HIV if not. Also removing shoes that were designed to assure maximum stability before to enter in an unknown scenery can be a big mistake. You will regret it later, trying desperately not slip while you navigate a stretcher on a narrow spiral staircase, carrying a heavy guy with a fractured leg.
- ldx1024 10d agoWould it be against Japanese etiquette to simply write "Please Don't Reposition" on these work shoes? Seems like that would reduce the number of times this happens.
- physhster 9d agoI think, perhaps, Japanese paramedics shouldn't take their shoes off...
- waffletower 9d agoI lived in Japan for 5 1/2 years. I slept on a futon in a tatami room in my apartment most nights. I have a getabako (shoe cabinet) at my home in the US that I actually brought back from Japan. I understand the depth of the ritual, and the cultural respect for the home, but my American culture runs more deeply I am afraid, and I can't help but say "Please emergency workers, just leave your shoes on and say 'shitsurei shimasu' (sorry for my rudeness) as you enter the home".