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I RFTA and the majority of the complaints are about call center metrics and the pressure to ration care. These are real concerns about misuse of metrics, but n
by derekdahmer 2mo ago
I RFTA and the majority of the complaints are about call center metrics and the pressure to ration care. These are real concerns about misuse of metrics, but not AI. The AI empathy thing was a 2024 pilot that was discontinued.
FWIW my wife works for Kaiser and finds a lot of value in the the medical LLM tools available to her. She tells me being able to do live translation, summarize notes, and quickly get comprehensive answers save her time and help her give better care. Her older patients also frequently come in bringing AI-powered alerts from their apple watches that detected cardiac events.
It's annoying that we use broad terms to describe a set of technologies that in some ways can be problematic and in another ways are very beneficial. We gotta evaluate each of these as they come rather than talk about blanket bans.
- api 2mo ago“AI” in title gets clicks. So “AI” must be in title.
- wrecked_em 2mo ago[dead]
- nerevarthelame 2mo agoAI is directly mentioned in 24 of 53 paragraphs from the article.
- aaron695 2mo ago[dead]
- ihsw 2mo ago[dead]
- ai_fry_ur_brain 2mo agoI personally will not use a provider who uses llm tools. I know it makes me and my coworkers less careful and lazier. Qualities I dont want in a health care providor. Ive actually moved primary care physicians over this once already, found the oldest guy I could who barely knows how to use a laptop but spends a bunch of extra time with me.
- bevr1337 2mo agoMy current provider shows me their computer monitor for the entire appointment. I didn’t ask for that treatment but I really appreciate it.
- flir 2mo agoFunny how we assess risk. Not criticising you - I'm as irrational as the next guy - but "I found the oldest doctor I could" seems like it has a different set of risks baked in.
- iknowstuff 2mo agoThe older the doctor the more experience they have, but also their knowledge is more outdated (how many keep up with medical journals?) and their brain is worse at learning and connecting dots so I'm not sure I'd choose the oldest I could find.
- SoftTalker 2mo agoThe human body is the same as it was before your doctor was born.
- pbhjpbhj 2mo agoMedicine however is not the same. Nor is our understanding of the human body. For example, a 60 yo doctor would have been born before the first heart transplant, the recipient lasted 18 days. Now 5000 are performed each year and after 5 years 80% of recipients are alive.
- BeetleB 2mo agoThe Earth was mostly the same in the 1300's. Let's use material from that time to do engineering.
- HDThoreaun 2mo agoOur knowledge of it very much is not
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- thatfrenchguy 2mo agoCardiac events from Apple Watches is not “AI” though
- eru 2mo agoIt would have been, 20 years ago.
- granzymes 2mo agoWe call things AI until they start working. See also: robots (your washing machine is a robot, but it works so you don’t think of it that way).
- kennywinker 2mo agoI think of robots as general purpose, machines are specific purpose. When it works, we make it single purpose because that’s far far cheaper than general purpose.
- eru 2mo agoAre welding machines at the Volkswagen factory robots?
- AussieWog93 2mo agoAre these the ones with 5+ axis arms? Yes, they're robots
- kennywinker 2mo agoIdk could you swap out an attachment and make them to something completely different?
- Dylan16807 2mo agoCalling things "robots" is more about the amount of movement. Spinning in place like a washing machine sprayer isn't enough to qualify. A paint conveyer belt is not a robot. A sprinkler system is not a robot. A CnC machine might be a robot. A conveyer belt that sorts items might be a robot. A roomba is a robot. And all of these function just fine.
- Quarrelsome 2mo agoeveryone is very thirsty for AI hate, so its not unexpected. Today its a mixed bag of corpo hate, anxiety about the future, inequality and traditional class warfare, combined with the typical technical ignorance. I would expect companies to blend shit metrics with AI systems, if not at Kaiser then at other places. People lack imagination and using AI to monitor your workforce has to be one of the possibly worst ways to use it. Alternatively some dickhead will "lean startup" their way into measuring "performance" in such a way with the "help" of AI that they will do something even worse.
- vkou 2mo ago> Today its a mixed bag of corpo hate, anxiety about the future, inequality and traditional class warfare, combined with the typical technical ignorance. Are there no actual problems with what it promises/how we're expected to use it at work/how it is used against us by people who use it at work? Is it just anxieties and feelings, that aren't actually grounded in anything? Everything's getting better for everyone, no downsides?
- Quarrelsome 2mo agoNobody knows what's actually going to happen, so we assume the worst. It's like how we like to shit on Amazon without appreciating how some people have benefitted from being able to side-step the gatekeepers of old by being able to go straight to market themselves without needing bricks and mortar. Humanity, fear and distrust are best of friends. That's what I'm calling out, I have no interest in playing Nostradamus. I think OP is a good case in point where people are blaming AI but really the issue here is the human in the loop, the person implementing these abhorrent policies that happen to be powered by AI.
- vkou 2mo ago> I think OP is a good case in point where people are blaming AI but really the issue here is the human in the loop, the person implementing these abhorrent policies that happen to be powered by AI. I don't care if the torture nexus itself is not at fault, now that it has been created, it has enabled its owner to do a bunch of novel bad things, and it deserves a large part of the blame.
- isityettime 2mo agoThings like this are (sadly) common (and age-old) problems with automation and computerization. (For a vivid account of this phenomenon, check out the novel _Close to the Machine_, by Ellen Ullman.) As executives and analysts increasingly use the "AI" craze to push automation and computerization (and layoffs) generally, even aside from AI proper, it should not be surprising that the individuals and groups opposing those moves also use the same labels. The lack of precision in language here sucks. It sucks for the discourse and it also sucks when it comes to focusing anger and productive energy on the core problems (obfuscation of human responsibility, erosion of human agency, declining institutional flexibility, deprofessionalization, etc.). But it doesn't begin with the critics of AI.
- johnnyanmac 2mo ago>The lack of precision in language here sucks. It's a feature. Or at least, a perk. If they want to claim this new shiny rock is AI and people buy it, then of course it's in their best interest to keep the black box mysterious. Being subterfuge for muddying the discourse of critique is just a nice side bonus.
- HappMacDonald 2mo agoBut it is only a perk for the scam artists who benefit from that. Yes, it makes sense that the confusion aligns with their interests, and they are unavoidably a big part of the conversation. But it remains a problem for the non-overlapping group of people who actually value the social contract, and for us finding a solution which helps take one more step to defeat the scammers remains valuable.
- tclancy 2mo agoJust for clarification, is your wife a doctor or a nurse?
- derekdahmer 2mo agoPhysician Assistant, which is like a RN
- fn-mote 2mo ago> AI-powered alerts from their apple watches that detected cardiac events Surely these are “good old-fashioned AI” (statistical learning) and not LLM, though. I just want to be clear that the “medical LLM” tools are the new ones, and the Apple Watch alerts aren’t.
- bitwize 2mo agoLLMs are statistical learning. GOFAI is symbolic, rules-based stuff, expert systems and that.
- kennywinker 2mo agoThere is still a categorical difference between how they are being used. Specifically analytic vs generative. Generative AI (LLMs and image generators) are the ones people have issues with - pretty much nobody cares about ML processing for analysis.
- woodson 2mo agoThere’s a bit of a grey area, for example speech recognition. Would you classify that as analytic or generative? Whisper and speech LLMs work pretty well, but can completely make up stuff that wasn’t in the audio at all (see e.g. “thank you for watching” transcribed during silence). Other approaches are closer to the acoustic evidence but may make other mistakes (especially wrongly transcribing long tail, low frequency terms). Pick your poison.
- kennywinker 2mo agoAnalytic, but badly made.
- tyfon 2mo ago> pretty much nobody cares about ML processing for analysis. I work in a bank and a can tell you that the customers absolutely hate ML when it rejects their loan application. Over the pond in the US, I have an impression that the fico score is not exactly popular either, but I have no first hand experience.
- reinitctxoffset 2mo ago“There is always a point at which the Amodei ceases to manipulate the media gestalt. A point at which the capital misallocation may well escalate, but beyond which the Amodei has become symptomatic of the capital markets themselves. Amodei as we ordinarily understand it is innately media-related. The Hangzhou hackers differ from other AI engineers precisely in their degree of self-consciousness, in their awareness of the extent to which media divorce the act of giving Amodei fuckin money from the original sociopolitical intent.”
- FloatArtifact 2mo agoConsider ambient listening in hospitals. Encounters are recorded then AI creates a summary. Those audio recordings then can be used for any other purpose. Consider the ramifications, A panopticon of metrics derived from AI. Imagine a AI used as a review tool across all ecounters a nurse performed in a year. IA will transform how data is stored in healthcare. It's going to move towards the data lake model storing information in its raw form for post analysis.
- worik 2mo agoWhat horrific distopian future you imagine
- ajb 2mo agoI understand the frustration, but it's justifiable for the public to be concerned about AI in general because the novelty of the technology means that boundaries between beneficial and problematic usage is not yet stable and well defined. For existing technologies consensus on that has usually been reached, although it changes over time. In many cases we may not yet have enough information to decide. Nor is this a trivial decision. AI has the potential to change society and economic relations as profoundly as the industrial revolution, or the invention of the printing press. These boundaries are also contested, as interests which benefit from a particular application are different from those whose interests are harmed. Society needs to identify which usages have a net benefit. It also needs to define which usages cause "absolute" harms which is will consider unacceptable regardless of benefits to some parties. Such as, potentially, reductions in personal autonomy, increased leverage or dominance by government or private interests. Not only that, but data and models which were collected/ built for one purpose can easily be adapted for others. This is also basically now happening all at once in many domains. In short, you can expect there to be tension over these boundaries for some time. It's not realistic to expect that others will agree with your personal perception of which applications are "obviously" unproblematic.
- truncate 2mo ago>> It's annoying that we use broad terms to describe a set of technologies that in some ways can be problematic and in another ways are very beneficial. We gotta evaluate each of these as they come rather than talk about blanket bans. I totally get it. I think few years, if some company said they record and transcribe every meeting/interview they take, it would be concerning. Now, its somewhat a norm for people to use these AI meeting tools which record everything you say and then go back to recording and exactly what people said. I'd call it surveillance than AI
- obscurette 2mo agoBeing close relative for several med and care workers we have discussed it a lot and consensus is that it really depends. For example relying on LLM summaries sounds great until it doesn't. It doesn't matter whether you misunderstand LLM summary or LLM "misunderstands" you – there are real risks involved, and you wouldn't want them to weigh on your conscience if they were to materialize. Relying on LLM to summarize things for you has one more issue. To outsiders, this seems like a tedious process, but is actually very important part of the thought process. Wording your thoughts and writing these down helps people to discover new aspects of the problem. It's how people learn. At the moment consensus is that it must not be banned, but also not mandated in any way - people must take responsibility, and they must be able to decide for themselves where and when the LLM use is justified and where it is not.
- red75prime 2mo ago> where and when the LLM use is justified and where it is not while being bombarded with articles like "AI makes things worse", "AI consumes all the water" and the like
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- adrianN 2mo agoI don’t think that it is possible to both allow the use of LLM and not mandate them in modern metric driven work places. Either you ban them or you force people to use them for game theoretic reasons: they are slower than their peers and quality of the work is harder to measure than quantity. All you achieve is shifting the blame to the employees if the LLM messes up. Come to think of it, that probably is a highly desirable outcome for the decision makers, so perhaps that will actually be the policy that becomes universally adopted.
- KronisLV 2mo ago> I don’t think that it is possible to both allow the use of LLM and not mandate them in modern metric driven work places. What I’d personally be most concerned about would be the risk of bad models instead of SOTA being used which would be especially error and hallucination prone. If you’re gonna do it, do it right. Otherwise don’t bother at all.