7 ms·

Nobody understands the point of hybrid cars [video]

220 points by CHB0403085482 4mo ago

chancitag 4mo ago
I recently bought a hybrid, and had been trying to wrap my brain around how it had an Atkinson engine in it. Was imagining a solenoid-driven crankshaft linkage or similar. Loved learning from this video that the secret is in valve timing and not fancy linkages. But. The other points made felt muddled or even contradictory. I either didn't follow the TC guy's explanation closely enough, or the script could have used another pass.
- Szpadel 4mo ago
  I'm assuming that right now all valves as computer controlled so why we cannot have best of both worlds? cannot we dynamically switch between Otto and Atkinson cycles by just changing valve profiles? computer could use Otto cycle in case more power is needed in rare situations
  - bluGill 4mo ago
    AFAIK all values are controlled by a camshaft. The computer doesn't get enough control. Solenoids seems like that are a possible replacement for CAMs, but they apparently have too many downsides.
    - vel0city 4mo ago
      Koenigsegg has an engine design that has a camless valve system based on their "Freevalve" technology. Its pretty cool. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koenigsegg_TFG https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koenigsegg_TFG
  - Tade0 4mo ago
    > cannot we dynamically switch between Otto and Atkinson cycles by just changing valve profiles? Toyota introduced this exact behaviour with their "Variable Valve Timing-intelligent Electric" (VVT-iE) system: https://toyota-club.net/files/faq/16-01-01_faq_vvt_ie_eng.htm https://toyota-club.net/files/faq/16-01-01_faq_vvt_ie_eng.ht... It uses an electric motor to control intake valve timing.
- nemomarx 4mo ago
  Watching the graphs during the driving segment helped me more than his explanation, but maybe I'm visual about it? It's interesting to see when the battery is being used. I've seen some modern hybrids just have a visualizer for this on the dash to encourage you to coast more and things, which seems about as helpful in understanding it too.
Terretta 4mo ago
Before seeing the sibling comment here this is muddled or contradictory -- I'd shared the link on (having watched it in full) noting this may be the best explainer of this nature for its target persona that I've seen.
liveoneggs 4mo ago
this was a great video
Tade0 4mo ago
I saw some parts of this video, so I'm not sure it was mentioned, but the key parameter that is optimized at all times in a hybrid is brake specific fuel consumption: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brake-specific_fuel_consumption https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brake-specific_fuel_consumptio... This is possible (and done) in any automatic, but in hybrids it was taken to the extreme, with electric motors covering for situations when either the RPM or torque are not where desired. In fact, my experience is that during highway driving it's actually slightly off the optimal point, charging the battery in the process. I speculate that it's so that the surplus power can be released immediately by just making the electric motor stop acting as a generator and go into, well, motor mode.
schnitzelstoat 4mo ago
I have a conventional (not plug-in) hybrid Toyota Corolla as otherwise I'd have to pay loads to drive it in the city. It does get crazy mileage and drives well so I can't complain. They are more expensive than standard cars though and you can't leave it in neutral which is a problem in some car washes.
- giarc 4mo ago
  Can you power off and leave in neutral?
  - pfortuny 4mo ago
    No: at least in my 2023 Corolla, in order to power off it must be in Park, and then, when you power off, the lid on the shift-stick is blocked. You can leave it in neutral and exit the car, obviously, but the car is started.
- justin66 4mo ago
  I don't get it. I put my Toyota hybrid in neutral while going through a car wash all the time. I just googled this. I had no idea this was a thing some people worry about. I guess it's a problem if the hybrid battery runs out while the car is in neutral, but there's a meter right there to tell you how much charge it's got if you're really worried about it.
  - roelschroeven 4mo ago
    What surprised me in the video is that Alec was telling how his engine can charge his battery while in the car wash. I had a 2016 Auris which I had to put it in neutral in the car wash, and in neutral the engine couldn't charge the battery. That was never a problem, I never had an empty battery in the car wash or even came close to it, but it does seem different from Alec's experience (unless I misunderstood).
    - jerlam 4mo ago
      I checked my Toyota's manual and it does explicitly warn about neutral for long periods of time for this reason. However, when not in neutral, the car will not allow the traction battery to be below 40% or so, so it is difficult to enter a car wash with an empty battery. However, the car may have a very small, old, or weak battery; there may be significant drain on the battery (air conditioning?) while in neutral; and you may be in a very long car wash.
em500 4mo ago
So this is specifically about Toyota's hybrid engines (which is very different from e.g. Honda's engine, not to mention plug-in hybrids or "mild hybrids"). The explanation of the mechanics starts around the 36 minute mark. I always found most explanations of Toyota's Power Split Device too abstract, until I found this page where you can play with the sliders to see how the power is actually split between the ICE and the MG1/MG2 electric generators: https://eahart.com/prius/psd/ https://eahart.com/prius/psd/
- javawizard 4mo ago
  Fun story: I used to own a Prius, and it turns out they expose the speeds and torque values of MG1, MG2, and the engine independently on the OBDII port. What this means it that you can set up an app like Torque[0] and add widgets that show you how fast each of the motors are spinning, live, and watch what happens when e.g. the engine starts: MG1 and MG2 both torque the engine forward, MG2 just enough to stop the car from attempting to roll backward in response to MG1's torque through the planetary gearset, and then MG1 spins up with the engine and then stops torquing it once the engine reaches idle. Battery charging while idling is similar: MG1 turns itself into a generator, fighting the engine and generating electricity in the process. The throttle opens considerably, as if you'd pressed the accelerator halfway to the floor, but MG1 and the engine work together to keep the engine's RPM around ~1,200 so you'd never know it - it's as if you're driving up a really steep hill that stops you from accelerating even though you have the gas pressed halfway down. And then MG2 torques backward to stop the car from rolling forward any more than the Prius's normal "simulate a normal gas car's tendency to roll forward when the user lets their foot off the brake" would have it do. It was fascinating to watch, and I kind of regret not building an app similar to the parent comment's link that showed what my car was doing in real time with the gears drawn out like that. [0]: https://torque-bhp.com/ https://torque-bhp.com/
- consp 4mo ago
  Note that Ford's plugin hybrids (using the same 2.5L engine as the full hybrids) also use the same technology (due to them having a cooperation and patent sharing agreement with Toyota) though they do differ a tiny bit due to the engine. The tool is interesting though the Ford system can run independently on MG2/MG1 alone up to about 130kph (~80mph) depending on requested torque and load. Only thing Ford screwed up is the battery (or Samsung since this time it's the cells).
1970-01-01 4mo ago
The title doesn't match the point of the video. What he is trying to show is the world would be a better place if we could establish that hybrids come in two flavors: Toyota and non-Toyota. There's really no better hybrid design. Unfortunately that means they aren't scrapped after decades, and Mongolia has become a dumping ground for them.[1] So it still is the best hybrid drivetrain in the world, but much like plastic or PFAS or some other very long term problems, the old battery cannot be cheaply scrapped. Toyota's new lithium models like the Sienna in the video have solved that, but now you're just half-assing a conventional EV until solid state systems are ready. By 2030 I expect the last Toyota hybrid to be announced. [1] https://cna.asia/3PS4lrN https://cna.asia/3PS4lrN
- xattt 4mo ago
  > Since early 2025, the government has made battery exports illegal. This seems like a self-imposed problem, especially in a country with no advanced battery recycling capacity.
- paulnpace 4mo ago
  I'm still not sure about the shoehorning of Mongolia into the discussion, but what these sorts of comments often fail to discuss is what the supply chain into new things looks like, because that can be equally destructive to the environment. Generally, recyclers will pay for scrap that has minerals which can be recovered from the scrap. Toyota Siennas use liquid Ni-MH batteries. It is likely these batteries as scrap aren't being exported, or, if they are, they are exported to foreign recyclers (in this case, many of those recyclers are actually less polluting that U.S. recyclers simply because they built their plants this century and new technology pollutes less). Also, Ni-MH can be replaced one cell at a time to produce "rebuilt" battery packs sold to economy customers, and "spent" cells, which simply fail performance tests, can often be used in other applications that are less demanding than hybrid vehicles. There is a cottage industry here in the U.S. doing these things. Ni-MH that is exported is usually completely dead cells going to a recycler (smelter), or at least that was my experience when I worked in that supply chain. Li-ion using Cobalt is highly sought after by recyclers due to the expense of virgin Cobalt, so experiences a similar supply chain to Ni-MH. LMO chemistry batteries were the ones nobody wanted to touch, as they have no value, and they are all of the cheap replacement batteries people buy on Amazon for $15, and likely will be the chemistry people will use in their EU mandated replacement battery phones for some nightmare future mass pollution disasters.
jasperry 4mo ago
Oh, it's a hybrid Sienna minivian! Now I'm bitter, because I was looking at those for the family a couple years back, but stock was low and they were priced $15k higher than a 3-row gas-guzzling SUV. Actually, another thing was that the visibility out of the Sienna seemed quite bad.
- dsr_ 4mo ago
  We bought one, after being on a waiting list for 9 months. Visibility is fine, comparable to other minivans and much better than a few older models. It no longer has rear vent windows, which is a pity. The software for the infotainment system is horrifying. Everything else is quite good.
ge96 4mo ago
Doug T H I S doesn't get old
chem83 4mo ago
I always thought the problem with hybrids was the complexity of the drive train, but this video is challenging that notion. It argues that the hybrid pack (minus the battery, perhaps?) is more compact and simpler than a manual gearbox, even. It consists of two electric motors and a planetary gear set, which is seemingly simpler than clutch packs, gear sets and belts of regular transmissions, including CVTs. Time codes 3:06, 37:07, 43:57, 43:36 (note on the eCVT naming), and 44:17.
- entropi 4mo ago
  There are other, more focused (also arguably better at explaining) videos on explaining how it works. Here is one: https://youtu.be/dxmxIsoV_Xo https://youtu.be/dxmxIsoV_Xo It took a while and several explanations for it to completely click for me. The e-cvt mechanism does seem to be quite clever and simpler (at least mechanically).
- xattt 4mo ago
  Interestingly, iForceMax drivetrains in Toyotas seen in Tundras and derivatives are the “other” kind with conventional transmissions. This does not appear to be a packaging issue, as the late 2000s LS 600h had a V8 with rear-wheel drive (and then AWD) with an “eCVT” in a “conventional” longitudinal package.
- roelschroeven 4mo ago
  Yes, but specifically about the Toyota's hybrid system. Other systems are more complex, they have a traditional engine and transmission and an electrical system on top.
  - phkahler 4mo ago
    Ford has been making very similar hybrids for 20+ years. The old Escape, the Fusion, CMax, Maverick. These are all the same general layout as the Prius.
    - roelschroeven 4mo ago
      I probably should have said Toyota-like hybrid system, to include manufacturers that either licensed Toyota's system or developed something similar themselves.
lowdownbutter 4mo ago
If nobody understands them, why would I watch this video - Either he also doesn't understand them, therefore why would I watch? Or he does understand them, in which case the title is incorrect, therefore why would I watch?
- moron4hire 4mo ago
  https://youtu.be/KnUFH5GX_fI?t=981&si=VNWJu0XaNdu-gj9Y https://youtu.be/KnUFH5GX_fI?t=981&si=VNWJu0XaNdu-gj9Y
  - mos_basik 4mo ago
    Thanks for this.
- PyWoody 4mo ago
  This one commercial said, “Forget everything you know about slipcovers.” So I did, and it was a load off of my mind. Then the commercial tried to sell slipcovers, but I didn’t know what they were! - Mitch Hedburg
yabones 4mo ago
The toyota hybrid transmission is genuinely brilliant. Probably one of the most important and broadly overlooked innovations in automobile technology this century. https://eahart.com/prius/psd/ https://eahart.com/prius/psd/ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dxmxIsoV_Xo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dxmxIsoV_Xo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ppyK3ZlUbtM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ppyK3ZlUbtM
Molitor5901 4mo ago
My experience with hybrids have been.... mostly positive, good mileage, Toyota's drive very well, but.. I would not buy one for one pedantic, silly reason: I hate the government mandated banshee howling sound. Many ICE vehicles are just as quiet as an EV without the fake noise, and while I am not discounting that quiet vehicles can pose a hazard to pedestrians, the howling is just.. utterly obnoxious.
- LanceH 4mo ago
  I had a good experience with my prius for quite a while. I wouldn't buy one with the noise either. I was annoyed daily that there was a loud beep during backup, which is the first thing I had to do every time I got in the car -- that beeping was inside the cabin. Mine was apparently before that. I bought it strictly for the commute as I was really tired of shifting in stop and go traffic. People talk about having having power from low rpm's like we're drag racing, but the real win is in stop and go. Mileage also great in that situation. But once the car hit 100k miles, it just became a nightmare with maintenance. Everything was special and somehow tied together. More of a Toyota issue, but they wouldn't recall the headlights ceasing to work -- each one had to be replaced with their computer control something for $700. Who needs headlights? Also the rubber pad to open the trunk melted -- this happened to quite a few Prius owners in a certain time frame -- toyota insisted we all spilled something that melts rubber on a pad that faces downward. I would be open to a hybrid, but I just bought a Honda Civic instead.
- Nemi 4mo ago
  I read a comment once that referred to this as the "sad spaceship" sound and I can't stop thinking about it. So on point. I hate it.
- ferongr 4mo ago
  A few drops of superglue into the speaker should work wonders. Probably very easy to DIY on your driveway in a few minutes.
  - Molitor5901 4mo ago
    That's a really good idea. I only worry about invalidating a warranty. As soon as the dealer finds out..
paulgerhardt 4mo ago
Watched this when it came out. I felt like it had that typical Technology Connections problem where it will take one under explored point along a Pareto frontier and conflate it for the global optimal design. At least that was my experience with the toaster, microwave, and dishwasher detergent episodes. While Hybrid System II is very clever and non-intuitive coming from an ICE or EV frame of reference there are reasons even Toyota hasn’t placed all their chips on this bet. In fact as Japan’s largest manufacturer they want to have a bet on every point of Pareto frontier which is why Toyota makes cars with their own competing iForce hybrid design (I’m a big fan of the generator + torque assist), hydrogen cars, electrics, plug in hybrids, diesels, propane and yes gas. Specifically Hybrid System II is best if you can 1) only have one car 2) don’t have a place to charge it 3) do lots of starts and stops driving around town.
caminanteblanco 4mo ago
For anyone who is concerned that this only applies to Toyota drivetrains (which was true for quite some time), Toyota made nearly all of their HEV patents (24,000 of them) completely royalty-free in 2019 [0]. At this point, I assume the only thing stopping manufacturers is their pre-existing investment in other technology. [0] https://global.toyota/en/newsroom/corporate/27512455.html https://global.toyota/en/newsroom/corporate/27512455.html
- qsxfthnkp2322 4mo ago
  From what I know (granted I’d rather have a bev, but alas) this also applies to the Honda hybrid system, I’m sure there are others.
- gregolo 4mo ago
  Ford Kuga (EU) / Escape (US) is built from those patents. It’s basically a copy of Toyota’s hybrid system. And it’s actually quite great, until it catches on fire.
  - steveBK123 4mo ago
    > until it catches on fire minor details
    - CalRobert 4mo ago
      but does it catch fire and halt?
  - rootusrootus 4mo ago
    > It’s basically a copy of Toyota’s hybrid system That is a myth which refuses to die. Ford developed their own system, and cross-licensed with Toyota over 20 years ago due to commonality of design.
  - toast0 4mo ago
    Similarly the cmax transmission is great unless you got an early one and it bores a second output shaft from the inside (bad bearing)
tedggh 4mo ago
I have all three ICE, EV and hybrid at home. I was hesitant at first when getting the EV because we already had the hybrid, but we needed a second SUV to carry kids. After two years with the EV it became evident to me the hybrid doesn’t make sense. It has some of the gas savings of an EV but you still deal with the inconvenience of maintaining a ICE. My EV has received zero maintenance other than cleaning the cameras. Brakes are still good for many more years and tires maybe need replacing in a year. No oil change, no brake pads, no spark plugs, fuel pumps, seals, plus all the time savings scheduling appointments and driving to the dealer. I do see some use cases where hybrids may actually work better, like very long daily commutes in a region lacking charging stations. I believe they are popular because there’s still fear of going full electric, but as many EV owners would tell you that fear is unreasonable and disappears after a few months owning an EV. I go out and run errands with 10% charge. The first days my hands started sweating when the charge dropped under 40%.
- wat10000 4mo ago
  They made sense when batteries were so expensive that decent range was unaffordable. That era is coming to a close, though.
  - dalyons 4mo ago
    Yep, almost obsolete. Will be entirely obsolete once the semi solid batteries make it out of china in the next year or so
- caminanteblanco 4mo ago
  I think the problem a lot of non-Toyota manufacturers have run into is trying to have it both ways, like you said. For better or worse (I say better), the Prius really committed to hybrid as its own form. Plenty of hybrids really are an electric motor and a ICE tacked together, and with that system, you're going to hit twice (at least) the problems of either one. The thing I appreciate about the Toyota power-split device, is that it really manages to remove a lot of the ICE moving parts. You have no auxiliary belts, no alternator, starter motor, steering pump, etc, and for me and millions of other drivers, that's made getting to 200k miles a given. I'm not sure which hybrid you have (and of course, ymmv) but I really think that nobody has done it like Toyota, at least until the 2020s
torcete 4mo ago
What I didn't get from the video is that there's a differential, but it is not connected to the wheels. Is there a second differential that connects MG1 to the wheels?
- phkahler 4mo ago
  The planetary gear works as a differential with the Sun gear, Planet carrier, and Ring gear each connected to something. You can see how this works here: https://eahart.com/prius/psd/ https://eahart.com/prius/psd/
  - vel0city 4mo ago
    That animation of the Power Split Device really helped me understand how the thing actually worked, even more than some of the physical models people show do.
arbuge 4mo ago
The EVs I'd really like to see some day in the US are the dirt cheap 100 mile range $5k Chinese EVs. One can dream I guess.
- bluGill 4mo ago
  Likely to remain a dream as the people buying a $5k car are likely to prefer a reliable 12 year old luxuery car instead.
- Sohcahtoa82 4mo ago
  I dunno. While most people likely only need one of those, it just feeds into the narrative that you can't take EVs on road trips.
- jujube3 4mo ago
  They don't need US crash or safety standards. Just get an e-bike instead.
caminanteblanco 4mo ago
One of my absolute favorite thing about my Prius is how solid-state everything is. It really feels like the Toyota engineers went out of their way to throw the people working on their cars a bone. The hybrid battery is super-easy to reach, and since Toyota stuck with NiMH for so long, it's extremely reliable across temperatures, and the cells are dirt cheap. I have to help family members with car repairs every so often, and the Prius not having a power steering pump, an alternator, a starter motor, or even a normal transmission, means that it's actually feasible to stay on top of repairs as a non-mechanic. In my brother's Ford fusion, it's a totally different experience, where it feels like Ford cut every single corner they could. I understand that their sedan line was dying, and I could really see why.
globular-toast 4mo ago
I understood after I watched the brilliant Weber Auto video on it, published 5 years ago[0]. I liked it so much I "gently" encouraged my partner to get a Yaris hybrid, which gets about 69mpg average. It's not unusual to see 80+ on individual trips. She was a little sceptical about having an auto at first, because us Europeans still think it's 1980 and that manuals are superior, but she came around after a few minutes of driving. To be fair, though, classic "slushbox" autos actually were/are garbage, as are chain actuated CVTs. The hybrid system gets you immediate acceleration like an electric, none of this awful lag you get with a slushbox. It's hilarious to me that 34mpg is considered remarkably good, though. I know it's a "minivan" but my Golf GTI gets 42mpg and is actually fun and arguably cool. I can also fit 5 people, furniture, and 2.4m lengths of timber in it comfortably. [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O61WihMRdjM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O61WihMRdjM
- kube-system 4mo ago
  The Sienna is considerably larger than a Golf. It seats 7 or 8 depending on configuration. Also remember we use different 20% smaller gallons than you do in Europe. 34 miles per US gallon is about 41 miles per imperial gallon. https://www.carsized.com/en-us/cars/compare/volkswagen-golf-2019-5-door-hatchback-gti-vs-toyota-sienna-2020-minivan/ https://www.carsized.com/en-us/cars/compare/volkswagen-golf-... In the same US tests with US spec vehicles, the Sienna actually achieves considerably better fuel economy. Quite impressive given the size difference: https://fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?action=sbs&id=49303&id=50112 https://fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?action=sbs&id=49303&id=5...
  - globular-toast 4mo ago
    > Also remember we use different 20% smaller gallons than you do in Europe. 34 miles per US gallon is about 41 miles per imperial gallon. Ohhhh... That would be it then. Yeah, that's very impressive. I definitely feel like these super-efficient petrols are the sweet spot right now.
- seszett 4mo ago
  > It's hilarious to me that 34mpg is considered remarkably good, though I was curious too, I have a manual, petrol engine, Citroën C4 Picasso (called a minivan in English I think? but then I didn't think a Golf GTI was called a minivan so I'm not sure) from 2011 that's not hybrid at all and that's about what I get (7 L/100 km). It's comfortable to be in but not interesting to drive at all though. I get a very consistent 4,3 L/100 km (54 mpg) on my diesel C4 (basically the same size as a Golf GTI) from 2013 and I like driving this one. edit now that I've read the sibling comment, Google uses US gallons for its conversions and that's what I've used here.
jonathanlydall 4mo ago
I recently got a BYD Sealion 5 PHEV and still driving in the engine so haven't been plugging it in yet. After 430km my fuel usage is exactly as per the start of this video at 6.9L/100km. Being in South Africa, the affordability of this vehicle compared to an EV makes this the most sensible purchase for me at this point of time. Also, it seems that BYD's price might be especially good right now due it trying to gain market share.
sfpotter 4mo ago
There's a reason so many cab companies have fleets of Priuses.
gpvos 4mo ago
I didn't get the "green stairs" reference; can anyone tell me what it's about? https://youtu.be/KnUFH5GX_fI?t=546 https://youtu.be/KnUFH5GX_fI?t=546
cbdevidal 4mo ago
My whole draw to hybrids is low overall cost and longevity. Just two days ago I bought my son a 2007 Prius with 194k miles for $6k; and three weeks ago, a 2008 with 225k miles for my sister for $2.5k. Both should last another 200k if they don’t abuse them. And if gas goes over $6 I’m buying one for myself, too. I sleep in my car twice a week for work, and being able to run the AC on hot Florida nights will be the cherry on top. The 2007 is like new except it’s the original battery, so son and I will swap the modules inside the battery pack in a few weeks for some refurbished modules with a warranty. Aside from the battery, the ABS pump is fragile but it is a DIY replacement if you have the time and patience. Other than that, they just go and go and go, saving money mile after mile.
- vkou 4mo ago
  My 2010 Prius has out of the blue started burning oil last year, like it's going out of style. It's a common problem with them. But otherwise, it's a very reliable car.
  - cbdevidal 4mo ago
    Yeah 2010-2015 all had that issue—or I should say it is far more common in that generation. In 2016 they finally fixed it and the fourth generation is really the best one, though the fifth might prove to be as good or better given enough time.
everfrustrated 4mo ago
My main takeaway from the video is just how terrible Toyota was at marketing this.
- pbmonster 4mo ago
  I mean, does it really matter? The Prius (and all subsequent Synergy Drive cars) were widely known - from the very beginning - to be extremely fuel efficient ICE cars. As time went on, they universally became known to be both fuel efficient and also absolutely bomb proof. Both of those things surprised basically no-one, since the direct successors (Camry, Corolla, 4Runner, Tacoma, Hilux) were also already known for being fuel efficient and reliable cars. The only people who really care about why and how exactly they got so fuel efficient and reliable are engineering nerds - and many of those already knew, the planetary gear set + atkinson cycle engine are a pretty legendary design. They hit it out of the park on the first try, after all. And as this video shows, explaining the why and how to non-engineering nerds takes a good part of an hour anyway. How do you do marketing with that?
  - deltoidmaximus 4mo ago
    It does to me. I was operating under the misconception that hybrids combined the meant more parts and more maintenance. I said this out loud as a complaint many times in discussions about them and everyone let it drop or conceded the point. Reading this thread it appears I was ignorant that it was more hybrid than I imagined.
    - everfrustrated 4mo ago
      Ditto. I also actively avoided hybrids as being worst of both worlds.
      - h43k3r 4mo ago
        I used to think the same before I bought a hybrid (Honda CRV). It is different from Toyota but also a very simple setup (generator + ev at low to medium speeds and direct drive at high speeds). It technically doesn't even have a gear box and no alternator. It has less maintenance items than its ICE equivalent. (Not taking into account the battery replacement in long term)
Spartan-S63 4mo ago
I now have a hybrid Toyota truck (Tacoma i-Force MAX), so it's not like the classical EV/BEV powertrain, from my understanding. Instead, the motor is between the engine and the transmission, so it gives an initial kick of torque before the engine starts or provides sufficient power. It's interesting that Toyota has two hybrid models: one for efficiency and one for low-end torque performance.
- 9x39 4mo ago
  https://www.tacoma4g.com/forum/threads/toyota-i-force-max-hybrid-system-components-explained.15966/ https://www.tacoma4g.com/forum/threads/toyota-i-force-max-hy... Also have an iforce max, it’s a weird one since our systems are 288V systems capable of running the drivetrain for a bit and not the 40V “mild hybrid” systems that only run auxiliary systems.
  - Spartan-S63 4mo ago
    Yeah, it's certainly a departure from the Prius-style hybrid powertrain. I'll watch that video as I haven't come across it yet! Also, I love how my 4th gen Tacoma drives! So glad I got a long-bed Trailhunter last year.
krosaen 4mo ago
The CEO of Toyota Research Institute, Gill Pratt, had some good (albeit self-serving) points about the benefits of hybrids and PEVs to complement EVS a few years back that I bookmarked and keep coming back to: https://web.archive.org/web/20210727090309/https://medium.com/toyotaresearch/carbon-is-our-enemy-lets-use-everything-we-ve-got-to-fight-it-b38bfbc1f16 https://web.archive.org/web/20210727090309/https://medium.co... https://web.archive.org/web/20210825054702/https://medium.com/toyotaresearch/more-straight-talk-about-toyotas-electric-vehicle-strategy-f0aba4be40 https://web.archive.org/web/20210825054702/https://medium.co... > Maximizing the benefit of every battery cell produced requires that we distribute them smartly. > This means putting them into a greater number of “right sized” electrified vehicles, including HEVs and PHEVs, instead of placing them all into a fewer number of long-range BEVs, like my model X. This is particularly important because presently it is difficult to recycle the kinds of batteries used in BEVs. If we are to achieve carbon neutrality, we must pay attention to all parts of the “3R” process — Reduce, Reuse, and Recycle. > For example, we hardly ever put gas into our RAV4 Prime PHEV, which has a battery ⅙ as large as our Model X BEV. For the same investment in batteries as our single Model X, five other RAV4 Prime customers could reduce their carbon footprint too.
- pornel 4mo ago
  I'm not sure about this, because a smaller battery pack with fewer modules needs to work much harder. PHEV batteries are discharged at higher rate (C) while a BEV can spread the load across many more modules. EV range of PHEV is so small that the battery gets fully cycled daily, while a BEV with similar commute distances and charging can easily keep batteries at a more comfortable state of charge. The recycling thing doesn't make sense to me. For getting raw materials back the difficulty is the same (get the cells out and grind them), and having more cells per pack should amortize labor cost better. BEV batteries aren't recycled at scale yet, because there aren't many to recycle. They're easier to reuse for grid storage, since BEV packs already have many modules hooked up to a single BMS. So this sounds more like Toyota is just supply constrained on batteries.
486sx33 4mo ago
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jacobo37 4mo ago
try living in rural mexico with an EV ... we have a hybrid because it is the only sensible choice ...
powderpig 4mo ago
The only benefit I've really made sense of with hybrids is their engine emissions aren't localised to the neighborhood where they're charged overnight. Apart from that, I can't think of anything else.

220 points by CHB0403085482 4mo ago

I recently bought a hybrid, and had been trying to wrap my brain around how it had an Atkinson engine in it. Was imagining a solenoid-driven crankshaft linkage or similar. Loved learning from this video that the secret is in valve timing and not fancy linkages. But. The other points made felt muddled or even contradictory. I either didn't follow the TC guy's explanation closely enough, or the script could have used another pass.

Szpadel 4mo ago
I'm assuming that right now all valves as computer controlled so why we cannot have best of both worlds? cannot we dynamically switch between Otto and Atkinson cycles by just changing valve profiles? computer could use Otto cycle in case more power is needed in rare situations
- bluGill 4mo ago
  AFAIK all values are controlled by a camshaft. The computer doesn't get enough control. Solenoids seems like that are a possible replacement for CAMs, but they apparently have too many downsides.
  - vel0city 4mo ago
    Koenigsegg has an engine design that has a camless valve system based on their "Freevalve" technology. Its pretty cool. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koenigsegg_TFG https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koenigsegg_TFG
- Tade0 4mo ago
  > cannot we dynamically switch between Otto and Atkinson cycles by just changing valve profiles? Toyota introduced this exact behaviour with their "Variable Valve Timing-intelligent Electric" (VVT-iE) system: https://toyota-club.net/files/faq/16-01-01_faq_vvt_ie_eng.htm https://toyota-club.net/files/faq/16-01-01_faq_vvt_ie_eng.ht... It uses an electric motor to control intake valve timing.
nemomarx 4mo ago
Watching the graphs during the driving segment helped me more than his explanation, but maybe I'm visual about it? It's interesting to see when the battery is being used. I've seen some modern hybrids just have a visualizer for this on the dash to encourage you to coast more and things, which seems about as helpful in understanding it too.

Terretta 4mo ago

Before seeing the sibling comment here this is muddled or contradictory -- I'd shared the link on (having watched it in full) noting this may be the best explainer of this nature for its target persona that I've seen.

liveoneggs 4mo ago

this was a great video

Tade0 4mo ago

I saw some parts of this video, so I'm not sure it was mentioned, but the key parameter that is optimized at all times in a hybrid is brake specific fuel consumption: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brake-specific_fuel_consumption https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brake-specific_fuel_consumptio... This is possible (and done) in any automatic, but in hybrids it was taken to the extreme, with electric motors covering for situations when either the RPM or torque are not where desired. In fact, my experience is that during highway driving it's actually slightly off the optimal point, charging the battery in the process. I speculate that it's so that the surplus power can be released immediately by just making the electric motor stop acting as a generator and go into, well, motor mode.

schnitzelstoat 4mo ago

I have a conventional (not plug-in) hybrid Toyota Corolla as otherwise I'd have to pay loads to drive it in the city. It does get crazy mileage and drives well so I can't complain. They are more expensive than standard cars though and you can't leave it in neutral which is a problem in some car washes.

giarc 4mo ago
Can you power off and leave in neutral?
- pfortuny 4mo ago
  No: at least in my 2023 Corolla, in order to power off it must be in Park, and then, when you power off, the lid on the shift-stick is blocked. You can leave it in neutral and exit the car, obviously, but the car is started.
justin66 4mo ago
I don't get it. I put my Toyota hybrid in neutral while going through a car wash all the time. I just googled this. I had no idea this was a thing some people worry about. I guess it's a problem if the hybrid battery runs out while the car is in neutral, but there's a meter right there to tell you how much charge it's got if you're really worried about it.
- roelschroeven 4mo ago
  What surprised me in the video is that Alec was telling how his engine can charge his battery while in the car wash. I had a 2016 Auris which I had to put it in neutral in the car wash, and in neutral the engine couldn't charge the battery. That was never a problem, I never had an empty battery in the car wash or even came close to it, but it does seem different from Alec's experience (unless I misunderstood).
  - jerlam 4mo ago
    I checked my Toyota's manual and it does explicitly warn about neutral for long periods of time for this reason. However, when not in neutral, the car will not allow the traction battery to be below 40% or so, so it is difficult to enter a car wash with an empty battery. However, the car may have a very small, old, or weak battery; there may be significant drain on the battery (air conditioning?) while in neutral; and you may be in a very long car wash.

em500 4mo ago

So this is specifically about Toyota's hybrid engines (which is very different from e.g. Honda's engine, not to mention plug-in hybrids or "mild hybrids"). The explanation of the mechanics starts around the 36 minute mark. I always found most explanations of Toyota's Power Split Device too abstract, until I found this page where you can play with the sliders to see how the power is actually split between the ICE and the MG1/MG2 electric generators: https://eahart.com/prius/psd/ https://eahart.com/prius/psd/

javawizard 4mo ago
Fun story: I used to own a Prius, and it turns out they expose the speeds and torque values of MG1, MG2, and the engine independently on the OBDII port. What this means it that you can set up an app like Torque[0] and add widgets that show you how fast each of the motors are spinning, live, and watch what happens when e.g. the engine starts: MG1 and MG2 both torque the engine forward, MG2 just enough to stop the car from attempting to roll backward in response to MG1's torque through the planetary gearset, and then MG1 spins up with the engine and then stops torquing it once the engine reaches idle. Battery charging while idling is similar: MG1 turns itself into a generator, fighting the engine and generating electricity in the process. The throttle opens considerably, as if you'd pressed the accelerator halfway to the floor, but MG1 and the engine work together to keep the engine's RPM around ~1,200 so you'd never know it - it's as if you're driving up a really steep hill that stops you from accelerating even though you have the gas pressed halfway down. And then MG2 torques backward to stop the car from rolling forward any more than the Prius's normal "simulate a normal gas car's tendency to roll forward when the user lets their foot off the brake" would have it do. It was fascinating to watch, and I kind of regret not building an app similar to the parent comment's link that showed what my car was doing in real time with the gears drawn out like that. [0]: https://torque-bhp.com/ https://torque-bhp.com/
consp 4mo ago
Note that Ford's plugin hybrids (using the same 2.5L engine as the full hybrids) also use the same technology (due to them having a cooperation and patent sharing agreement with Toyota) though they do differ a tiny bit due to the engine. The tool is interesting though the Ford system can run independently on MG2/MG1 alone up to about 130kph (~80mph) depending on requested torque and load. Only thing Ford screwed up is the battery (or Samsung since this time it's the cells).

1970-01-01 4mo ago

The title doesn't match the point of the video. What he is trying to show is the world would be a better place if we could establish that hybrids come in two flavors: Toyota and non-Toyota. There's really no better hybrid design. Unfortunately that means they aren't scrapped after decades, and Mongolia has become a dumping ground for them.[1] So it still is the best hybrid drivetrain in the world, but much like plastic or PFAS or some other very long term problems, the old battery cannot be cheaply scrapped. Toyota's new lithium models like the Sienna in the video have solved that, but now you're just half-assing a conventional EV until solid state systems are ready. By 2030 I expect the last Toyota hybrid to be announced. [1] https://cna.asia/3PS4lrN https://cna.asia/3PS4lrN

xattt 4mo ago
> Since early 2025, the government has made battery exports illegal. This seems like a self-imposed problem, especially in a country with no advanced battery recycling capacity.
paulnpace 4mo ago
I'm still not sure about the shoehorning of Mongolia into the discussion, but what these sorts of comments often fail to discuss is what the supply chain into new things looks like, because that can be equally destructive to the environment. Generally, recyclers will pay for scrap that has minerals which can be recovered from the scrap. Toyota Siennas use liquid Ni-MH batteries. It is likely these batteries as scrap aren't being exported, or, if they are, they are exported to foreign recyclers (in this case, many of those recyclers are actually less polluting that U.S. recyclers simply because they built their plants this century and new technology pollutes less). Also, Ni-MH can be replaced one cell at a time to produce "rebuilt" battery packs sold to economy customers, and "spent" cells, which simply fail performance tests, can often be used in other applications that are less demanding than hybrid vehicles. There is a cottage industry here in the U.S. doing these things. Ni-MH that is exported is usually completely dead cells going to a recycler (smelter), or at least that was my experience when I worked in that supply chain. Li-ion using Cobalt is highly sought after by recyclers due to the expense of virgin Cobalt, so experiences a similar supply chain to Ni-MH. LMO chemistry batteries were the ones nobody wanted to touch, as they have no value, and they are all of the cheap replacement batteries people buy on Amazon for $15, and likely will be the chemistry people will use in their EU mandated replacement battery phones for some nightmare future mass pollution disasters.

jasperry 4mo ago

Oh, it's a hybrid Sienna minivian! Now I'm bitter, because I was looking at those for the family a couple years back, but stock was low and they were priced $15k higher than a 3-row gas-guzzling SUV. Actually, another thing was that the visibility out of the Sienna seemed quite bad.

dsr_ 4mo ago
We bought one, after being on a waiting list for 9 months. Visibility is fine, comparable to other minivans and much better than a few older models. It no longer has rear vent windows, which is a pity. The software for the infotainment system is horrifying. Everything else is quite good.

ge96 4mo ago

Doug T H I S doesn't get old

chem83 4mo ago

I always thought the problem with hybrids was the complexity of the drive train, but this video is challenging that notion. It argues that the hybrid pack (minus the battery, perhaps?) is more compact and simpler than a manual gearbox, even. It consists of two electric motors and a planetary gear set, which is seemingly simpler than clutch packs, gear sets and belts of regular transmissions, including CVTs. Time codes 3:06, 37:07, 43:57, 43:36 (note on the eCVT naming), and 44:17.

entropi 4mo ago
There are other, more focused (also arguably better at explaining) videos on explaining how it works. Here is one: https://youtu.be/dxmxIsoV_Xo https://youtu.be/dxmxIsoV_Xo It took a while and several explanations for it to completely click for me. The e-cvt mechanism does seem to be quite clever and simpler (at least mechanically).
xattt 4mo ago
Interestingly, iForceMax drivetrains in Toyotas seen in Tundras and derivatives are the “other” kind with conventional transmissions. This does not appear to be a packaging issue, as the late 2000s LS 600h had a V8 with rear-wheel drive (and then AWD) with an “eCVT” in a “conventional” longitudinal package.
roelschroeven 4mo ago
Yes, but specifically about the Toyota's hybrid system. Other systems are more complex, they have a traditional engine and transmission and an electrical system on top.
- phkahler 4mo ago
  Ford has been making very similar hybrids for 20+ years. The old Escape, the Fusion, CMax, Maverick. These are all the same general layout as the Prius.
  - roelschroeven 4mo ago
    I probably should have said Toyota-like hybrid system, to include manufacturers that either licensed Toyota's system or developed something similar themselves.

lowdownbutter 4mo ago

If nobody understands them, why would I watch this video - Either he also doesn't understand them, therefore why would I watch? Or he does understand them, in which case the title is incorrect, therefore why would I watch?

moron4hire 4mo ago
https://youtu.be/KnUFH5GX_fI?t=981&si=VNWJu0XaNdu-gj9Y https://youtu.be/KnUFH5GX_fI?t=981&si=VNWJu0XaNdu-gj9Y
- mos_basik 4mo ago
  Thanks for this.
PyWoody 4mo ago
This one commercial said, “Forget everything you know about slipcovers.” So I did, and it was a load off of my mind. Then the commercial tried to sell slipcovers, but I didn’t know what they were! - Mitch Hedburg

yabones 4mo ago

The toyota hybrid transmission is genuinely brilliant. Probably one of the most important and broadly overlooked innovations in automobile technology this century. https://eahart.com/prius/psd/ https://eahart.com/prius/psd/ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dxmxIsoV_Xo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dxmxIsoV_Xo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ppyK3ZlUbtM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ppyK3ZlUbtM

Molitor5901 4mo ago

My experience with hybrids have been.... mostly positive, good mileage, Toyota's drive very well, but.. I would not buy one for one pedantic, silly reason: I hate the government mandated banshee howling sound. Many ICE vehicles are just as quiet as an EV without the fake noise, and while I am not discounting that quiet vehicles can pose a hazard to pedestrians, the howling is just.. utterly obnoxious.

LanceH 4mo ago
I had a good experience with my prius for quite a while. I wouldn't buy one with the noise either. I was annoyed daily that there was a loud beep during backup, which is the first thing I had to do every time I got in the car -- that beeping was inside the cabin. Mine was apparently before that. I bought it strictly for the commute as I was really tired of shifting in stop and go traffic. People talk about having having power from low rpm's like we're drag racing, but the real win is in stop and go. Mileage also great in that situation. But once the car hit 100k miles, it just became a nightmare with maintenance. Everything was special and somehow tied together. More of a Toyota issue, but they wouldn't recall the headlights ceasing to work -- each one had to be replaced with their computer control something for $700. Who needs headlights? Also the rubber pad to open the trunk melted -- this happened to quite a few Prius owners in a certain time frame -- toyota insisted we all spilled something that melts rubber on a pad that faces downward. I would be open to a hybrid, but I just bought a Honda Civic instead.
Nemi 4mo ago
I read a comment once that referred to this as the "sad spaceship" sound and I can't stop thinking about it. So on point. I hate it.
ferongr 4mo ago
A few drops of superglue into the speaker should work wonders. Probably very easy to DIY on your driveway in a few minutes.
- Molitor5901 4mo ago
  That's a really good idea. I only worry about invalidating a warranty. As soon as the dealer finds out..

paulgerhardt 4mo ago

Watched this when it came out. I felt like it had that typical Technology Connections problem where it will take one under explored point along a Pareto frontier and conflate it for the global optimal design. At least that was my experience with the toaster, microwave, and dishwasher detergent episodes. While Hybrid System II is very clever and non-intuitive coming from an ICE or EV frame of reference there are reasons even Toyota hasn’t placed all their chips on this bet. In fact as Japan’s largest manufacturer they want to have a bet on every point of Pareto frontier which is why Toyota makes cars with their own competing iForce hybrid design (I’m a big fan of the generator + torque assist), hydrogen cars, electrics, plug in hybrids, diesels, propane and yes gas. Specifically Hybrid System II is best if you can 1) only have one car 2) don’t have a place to charge it 3) do lots of starts and stops driving around town.

caminanteblanco 4mo ago

For anyone who is concerned that this only applies to Toyota drivetrains (which was true for quite some time), Toyota made nearly all of their HEV patents (24,000 of them) completely royalty-free in 2019 [0]. At this point, I assume the only thing stopping manufacturers is their pre-existing investment in other technology. [0] https://global.toyota/en/newsroom/corporate/27512455.html https://global.toyota/en/newsroom/corporate/27512455.html

qsxfthnkp2322 4mo ago
From what I know (granted I’d rather have a bev, but alas) this also applies to the Honda hybrid system, I’m sure there are others.
gregolo 4mo ago
Ford Kuga (EU) / Escape (US) is built from those patents. It’s basically a copy of Toyota’s hybrid system. And it’s actually quite great, until it catches on fire.
- steveBK123 4mo ago
  > until it catches on fire minor details
  - CalRobert 4mo ago
    but does it catch fire and halt?
- rootusrootus 4mo ago
  > It’s basically a copy of Toyota’s hybrid system That is a myth which refuses to die. Ford developed their own system, and cross-licensed with Toyota over 20 years ago due to commonality of design.
- toast0 4mo ago
  Similarly the cmax transmission is great unless you got an early one and it bores a second output shaft from the inside (bad bearing)

tedggh 4mo ago

I have all three ICE, EV and hybrid at home. I was hesitant at first when getting the EV because we already had the hybrid, but we needed a second SUV to carry kids. After two years with the EV it became evident to me the hybrid doesn’t make sense. It has some of the gas savings of an EV but you still deal with the inconvenience of maintaining a ICE. My EV has received zero maintenance other than cleaning the cameras. Brakes are still good for many more years and tires maybe need replacing in a year. No oil change, no brake pads, no spark plugs, fuel pumps, seals, plus all the time savings scheduling appointments and driving to the dealer. I do see some use cases where hybrids may actually work better, like very long daily commutes in a region lacking charging stations. I believe they are popular because there’s still fear of going full electric, but as many EV owners would tell you that fear is unreasonable and disappears after a few months owning an EV. I go out and run errands with 10% charge. The first days my hands started sweating when the charge dropped under 40%.

wat10000 4mo ago
They made sense when batteries were so expensive that decent range was unaffordable. That era is coming to a close, though.
- dalyons 4mo ago
  Yep, almost obsolete. Will be entirely obsolete once the semi solid batteries make it out of china in the next year or so
caminanteblanco 4mo ago
I think the problem a lot of non-Toyota manufacturers have run into is trying to have it both ways, like you said. For better or worse (I say better), the Prius really committed to hybrid as its own form. Plenty of hybrids really are an electric motor and a ICE tacked together, and with that system, you're going to hit twice (at least) the problems of either one. The thing I appreciate about the Toyota power-split device, is that it really manages to remove a lot of the ICE moving parts. You have no auxiliary belts, no alternator, starter motor, steering pump, etc, and for me and millions of other drivers, that's made getting to 200k miles a given. I'm not sure which hybrid you have (and of course, ymmv) but I really think that nobody has done it like Toyota, at least until the 2020s

torcete 4mo ago

What I didn't get from the video is that there's a differential, but it is not connected to the wheels. Is there a second differential that connects MG1 to the wheels?

phkahler 4mo ago
The planetary gear works as a differential with the Sun gear, Planet carrier, and Ring gear each connected to something. You can see how this works here: https://eahart.com/prius/psd/ https://eahart.com/prius/psd/
- vel0city 4mo ago
  That animation of the Power Split Device really helped me understand how the thing actually worked, even more than some of the physical models people show do.

arbuge 4mo ago

The EVs I'd really like to see some day in the US are the dirt cheap 100 mile range $5k Chinese EVs. One can dream I guess.

bluGill 4mo ago
Likely to remain a dream as the people buying a $5k car are likely to prefer a reliable 12 year old luxuery car instead.
Sohcahtoa82 4mo ago
I dunno. While most people likely only need one of those, it just feeds into the narrative that you can't take EVs on road trips.
jujube3 4mo ago
They don't need US crash or safety standards. Just get an e-bike instead.

caminanteblanco 4mo ago

One of my absolute favorite thing about my Prius is how solid-state everything is. It really feels like the Toyota engineers went out of their way to throw the people working on their cars a bone. The hybrid battery is super-easy to reach, and since Toyota stuck with NiMH for so long, it's extremely reliable across temperatures, and the cells are dirt cheap. I have to help family members with car repairs every so often, and the Prius not having a power steering pump, an alternator, a starter motor, or even a normal transmission, means that it's actually feasible to stay on top of repairs as a non-mechanic. In my brother's Ford fusion, it's a totally different experience, where it feels like Ford cut every single corner they could. I understand that their sedan line was dying, and I could really see why.

globular-toast 4mo ago

I understood after I watched the brilliant Weber Auto video on it, published 5 years ago[0]. I liked it so much I "gently" encouraged my partner to get a Yaris hybrid, which gets about 69mpg average. It's not unusual to see 80+ on individual trips. She was a little sceptical about having an auto at first, because us Europeans still think it's 1980 and that manuals are superior, but she came around after a few minutes of driving. To be fair, though, classic "slushbox" autos actually were/are garbage, as are chain actuated CVTs. The hybrid system gets you immediate acceleration like an electric, none of this awful lag you get with a slushbox. It's hilarious to me that 34mpg is considered remarkably good, though. I know it's a "minivan" but my Golf GTI gets 42mpg and is actually fun and arguably cool. I can also fit 5 people, furniture, and 2.4m lengths of timber in it comfortably. [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O61WihMRdjM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O61WihMRdjM

kube-system 4mo ago
The Sienna is considerably larger than a Golf. It seats 7 or 8 depending on configuration. Also remember we use different 20% smaller gallons than you do in Europe. 34 miles per US gallon is about 41 miles per imperial gallon. https://www.carsized.com/en-us/cars/compare/volkswagen-golf-2019-5-door-hatchback-gti-vs-toyota-sienna-2020-minivan/ https://www.carsized.com/en-us/cars/compare/volkswagen-golf-... In the same US tests with US spec vehicles, the Sienna actually achieves considerably better fuel economy. Quite impressive given the size difference: https://fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?action=sbs&id=49303&id=50112 https://fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?action=sbs&id=49303&id=5...
- globular-toast 4mo ago
  > Also remember we use different 20% smaller gallons than you do in Europe. 34 miles per US gallon is about 41 miles per imperial gallon. Ohhhh... That would be it then. Yeah, that's very impressive. I definitely feel like these super-efficient petrols are the sweet spot right now.
seszett 4mo ago
> It's hilarious to me that 34mpg is considered remarkably good, though I was curious too, I have a manual, petrol engine, Citroën C4 Picasso (called a minivan in English I think? but then I didn't think a Golf GTI was called a minivan so I'm not sure) from 2011 that's not hybrid at all and that's about what I get (7 L/100 km). It's comfortable to be in but not interesting to drive at all though. I get a very consistent 4,3 L/100 km (54 mpg) on my diesel C4 (basically the same size as a Golf GTI) from 2013 and I like driving this one. edit now that I've read the sibling comment, Google uses US gallons for its conversions and that's what I've used here.

jonathanlydall 4mo ago

I recently got a BYD Sealion 5 PHEV and still driving in the engine so haven't been plugging it in yet. After 430km my fuel usage is exactly as per the start of this video at 6.9L/100km. Being in South Africa, the affordability of this vehicle compared to an EV makes this the most sensible purchase for me at this point of time. Also, it seems that BYD's price might be especially good right now due it trying to gain market share.

sfpotter 4mo ago

There's a reason so many cab companies have fleets of Priuses.

gpvos 4mo ago

I didn't get the "green stairs" reference; can anyone tell me what it's about? https://youtu.be/KnUFH5GX_fI?t=546 https://youtu.be/KnUFH5GX_fI?t=546

cbdevidal 4mo ago

My whole draw to hybrids is low overall cost and longevity. Just two days ago I bought my son a 2007 Prius with 194k miles for $6k; and three weeks ago, a 2008 with 225k miles for my sister for $2.5k. Both should last another 200k if they don’t abuse them. And if gas goes over $6 I’m buying one for myself, too. I sleep in my car twice a week for work, and being able to run the AC on hot Florida nights will be the cherry on top. The 2007 is like new except it’s the original battery, so son and I will swap the modules inside the battery pack in a few weeks for some refurbished modules with a warranty. Aside from the battery, the ABS pump is fragile but it is a DIY replacement if you have the time and patience. Other than that, they just go and go and go, saving money mile after mile.

vkou 4mo ago
My 2010 Prius has out of the blue started burning oil last year, like it's going out of style. It's a common problem with them. But otherwise, it's a very reliable car.
- cbdevidal 4mo ago
  Yeah 2010-2015 all had that issue—or I should say it is far more common in that generation. In 2016 they finally fixed it and the fourth generation is really the best one, though the fifth might prove to be as good or better given enough time.

everfrustrated 4mo ago

My main takeaway from the video is just how terrible Toyota was at marketing this.

pbmonster 4mo ago
I mean, does it really matter? The Prius (and all subsequent Synergy Drive cars) were widely known - from the very beginning - to be extremely fuel efficient ICE cars. As time went on, they universally became known to be both fuel efficient and also absolutely bomb proof. Both of those things surprised basically no-one, since the direct successors (Camry, Corolla, 4Runner, Tacoma, Hilux) were also already known for being fuel efficient and reliable cars. The only people who really care about why and how exactly they got so fuel efficient and reliable are engineering nerds - and many of those already knew, the planetary gear set + atkinson cycle engine are a pretty legendary design. They hit it out of the park on the first try, after all. And as this video shows, explaining the why and how to non-engineering nerds takes a good part of an hour anyway. How do you do marketing with that?
- deltoidmaximus 4mo ago
  It does to me. I was operating under the misconception that hybrids combined the meant more parts and more maintenance. I said this out loud as a complaint many times in discussions about them and everyone let it drop or conceded the point. Reading this thread it appears I was ignorant that it was more hybrid than I imagined.
  - everfrustrated 4mo ago
    Ditto. I also actively avoided hybrids as being worst of both worlds.
    - h43k3r 4mo ago
      I used to think the same before I bought a hybrid (Honda CRV). It is different from Toyota but also a very simple setup (generator + ev at low to medium speeds and direct drive at high speeds). It technically doesn't even have a gear box and no alternator. It has less maintenance items than its ICE equivalent. (Not taking into account the battery replacement in long term)

Spartan-S63 4mo ago

I now have a hybrid Toyota truck (Tacoma i-Force MAX), so it's not like the classical EV/BEV powertrain, from my understanding. Instead, the motor is between the engine and the transmission, so it gives an initial kick of torque before the engine starts or provides sufficient power. It's interesting that Toyota has two hybrid models: one for efficiency and one for low-end torque performance.

9x39 4mo ago
https://www.tacoma4g.com/forum/threads/toyota-i-force-max-hybrid-system-components-explained.15966/ https://www.tacoma4g.com/forum/threads/toyota-i-force-max-hy... Also have an iforce max, it’s a weird one since our systems are 288V systems capable of running the drivetrain for a bit and not the 40V “mild hybrid” systems that only run auxiliary systems.
- Spartan-S63 4mo ago
  Yeah, it's certainly a departure from the Prius-style hybrid powertrain. I'll watch that video as I haven't come across it yet! Also, I love how my 4th gen Tacoma drives! So glad I got a long-bed Trailhunter last year.

krosaen 4mo ago

The CEO of Toyota Research Institute, Gill Pratt, had some good (albeit self-serving) points about the benefits of hybrids and PEVs to complement EVS a few years back that I bookmarked and keep coming back to: https://web.archive.org/web/20210727090309/https://medium.com/toyotaresearch/carbon-is-our-enemy-lets-use-everything-we-ve-got-to-fight-it-b38bfbc1f16 https://web.archive.org/web/20210727090309/https://medium.co... https://web.archive.org/web/20210825054702/https://medium.com/toyotaresearch/more-straight-talk-about-toyotas-electric-vehicle-strategy-f0aba4be40 https://web.archive.org/web/20210825054702/https://medium.co... > Maximizing the benefit of every battery cell produced requires that we distribute them smartly. > This means putting them into a greater number of “right sized” electrified vehicles, including HEVs and PHEVs, instead of placing them all into a fewer number of long-range BEVs, like my model X. This is particularly important because presently it is difficult to recycle the kinds of batteries used in BEVs. If we are to achieve carbon neutrality, we must pay attention to all parts of the “3R” process — Reduce, Reuse, and Recycle. > For example, we hardly ever put gas into our RAV4 Prime PHEV, which has a battery ⅙ as large as our Model X BEV. For the same investment in batteries as our single Model X, five other RAV4 Prime customers could reduce their carbon footprint too.

pornel 4mo ago
I'm not sure about this, because a smaller battery pack with fewer modules needs to work much harder. PHEV batteries are discharged at higher rate (C) while a BEV can spread the load across many more modules. EV range of PHEV is so small that the battery gets fully cycled daily, while a BEV with similar commute distances and charging can easily keep batteries at a more comfortable state of charge. The recycling thing doesn't make sense to me. For getting raw materials back the difficulty is the same (get the cells out and grind them), and having more cells per pack should amortize labor cost better. BEV batteries aren't recycled at scale yet, because there aren't many to recycle. They're easier to reuse for grid storage, since BEV packs already have many modules hooked up to a single BMS. So this sounds more like Toyota is just supply constrained on batteries.

486sx33 4mo ago

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jacobo37 4mo ago

try living in rural mexico with an EV ... we have a hybrid because it is the only sensible choice ...

powderpig 4mo ago

The only benefit I've really made sense of with hybrids is their engine emissions aren't localised to the neighborhood where they're charged overnight. Apart from that, I can't think of anything else.