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Power Tools Got Worse on Purpose. Who Owns DeWalt, Craftsman, and Milwaukee?
- Arubis 4mo agoI don’t know if it’s by LLM generation or just contemporary style, but I find the style of omitting the subject from sentence after sentence after sentence unreadable. Once is fine. Six in a row is insufferable.
- everybodyknows 4mo agoThe only full colons are in the headings, and there are no semicolons whatsoever. For embedding a large volume of factual info in prose, these are irreplaceable.
- Arubis 4mo agoYeah. I think what gets me most about both LLM-generated and LLM-inflected writing is the sheer laziness. You don't even have to hand-edit this stuff! Even feeding your spewed output through a slightly more human-sounding model (Palmyra Writer is halfway decent) is an improvement. Just don't take it straight out of the box.
- zulux 4mo agoFor us US folks, Amazon.jp will send you the unobtanium Makita tools you know you want.... like the Makita battery-operated microwave. Shout out to TTI for keeping Ryobi cheap, cheerful, and a good value. Not my cup of tea, but their stuff is reasonably fine for the price.
- hyperbovine 4mo agoThe Makita US product line seems ludicrously big to me. I don’t really get what this article is throwing down when it comes to Makita.
- zdragnar 4mo agoMy (not battery) Makita chainsaw is fantastic, and I have definitely put it through its paces.
- deadbabe 4mo agoWhat’s a good one to start with
- fatbird 4mo agoHonestly, Ryobi is fine for just about anything a non-professional will need. Buy it, use it until it breaks (if it does), and then consider whether a more expensive one will be necessary. I started with Ryobi and burned out a drill using it to hog out a 3" mortise with a 2.5" forstner bit (far beyond any reasonable use case for a drill), and upgraded to DeWalt. All of my other Ryobi pieces (circular saw, reciprocating, jigsaw, lights, non-orbital sander) work great, and I've never said to my tool "You'd be able to do this if you were a DeWalt, ya piece of shit!" The more important thing to do once you start on one brand, and have a bunch of their batteries, is simply wait until the big sales come. All the brands have ridiculous, stock-dumping deals to move volume at least once or twice a year, and that's when it almost becomes buy-one-get-one-free. Where I avoid the Ryobi brand is in consumables: bits, blades, and such. That's where the cheapness is most obvious. Bits wear more quickly, blades go dull faster. Milwaukee and DeWalt stuff lasts longer, but this is where you go for specialty names like Diablo that are even better. My Ryobi circular saw with Diablo blade is a tank.
- sitkack 4mo agoYou can get adapters to use great batteries in low quality tools.
- evolve2k 4mo agoIf you can afford to pay that bit more for quality product, from the article plus a few comments here; seems that people really like Makita. - hasn’t enshitifed - makes quality tools that last - much more repairable (saving you even more in the long term) - single company, not a conglomerate, no weird vc influence. For most tools you won’t need upgrades, just build out your collection as you go.
- ddellacosta 4mo agoStrong agreement with this! I managed somehow to jam a drill bit in my Makita cordless drill a few years back. It was just enough of a pain that I didn't feel comfortable trying to fix it myself, so I requested a repair through Makita. I remember calling them and getting it all set up via a real customer service person who seemed pretty obviously based in the U.S. (ironically). His name was Mark and he was great and made it all super smooth for me. I got the drill back a little while later entirely repaired, the bent drill bit included in the return package, and I was charged absolutely nothing for any of it because I guess I was still under warranty and I didn't realize it. It was a fantastic customer service interaction and absolutely increased my loyalty to the company. ...and that's leaving aside the quality of their tools. In my experience they are incredibly rugged--among other things, for a week-long landscaping project I used that same drill with a gigantic bit to dig holes in frozen dirt, and it powered through it without issues. Great tools and a solid company.
- wojciii 4mo agoI have Makita products .. a lawnmower and a bush clearing tool ..somewhat expensive, but the quality is superb.
- happytoexplain 4mo agoI had no idea I was missing out on anything - their product line is big even in the US. Our battery tools are 100% Makita (except the lawnmower - I forget what made me decide on EGO, but I've been happy with it). Anyway, I'm glad to see an article claiming that Makita has still resisted enshittification.
- Blackthorn 4mo agoIf Makita would finally just make a right angle die grinder I would be so happy. It's like the one thing they're missing.
- IdiotSavage 4mo agoDo they have the Makita coffee maker? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4xOEIpbxM4w https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4xOEIpbxM4w
- zulux 4mo agoYes, but those are sold in the US market officially. JP has more interesting colors if that's imortant to you. https://makitatools.com/products/details/DCM501Z https://makitatools.com/products/details/DCM501Z
- jader201 4mo agoNot sure where “Who Owns DeWalt, Craftsman, and Milwaukee?” in the title came from. > Please don't do things to make titles stand out, like using uppercase or exclamation points, or saying how great an article is. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- deleted 4mo ago[deleted]
- bariumbitmap 4mo agoThe <title> tag in the HTML has it: <title>Your Power Tools Got Worse On Purpose | Who Really Owns DeWalt, Craftsman, and Milwaukee?</title>
- jader201 4mo agoI wondered if that was it (I’m on my phone).
- deleted 4mo ago[deleted]
- joe_mamba 4mo agoSame with all consumer white goods electronics: microwave ovens, washing machines, refrigerators, toasters, etc. most white label by a few conglomerates with the same Chinese factories. The "high quality ones" that have their own R&D and manufacturing, are very expensive and out of reach for a lot of people.
- Papazsazsa 4mo agoThe bottom line is that you can also compete by investing in quality.
- analog8374 4mo agoTangentially, Arrow T50 stapler used to be a tank but now it's wet shit. Apparently they changed to a new factory. So when your reputation is big you can slack on the product. Or is that naive? Is it the natural progression for all products? Like in that movie Brasil. The food is awful but the illustration of the food is wonderful.
- hyperbovine 4mo agoOld ones sell on eBay for not a lot.
- analog8374 4mo agoI'm looking at some modern ones. Bostitch or whatever.
- sitkack 4mo agoI have had two die at under 20k staples. 4 boxes. The problem is MBAs see an unpriced asset of the commons and burn it down to get temporarily, one time ahead.
- jmclnx 4mo agoGood example of what Private Equity did and doing to many industries. I also notice once a PE Firm takes over a Company, kiss quality good bye. They mentioned Eye Wear is next, I think the author can guess where that is going. No reason to doubt the same will happen to that industry too.
- abfan1127 4mo agoseems like a good business model to watch where PE is moving in. Start investing in quality designs while PE drives quality down, then sweep in and be the "quality amongst trash" brand.
- senordevnyc 4mo agoI feel the same, but I do wonder sometimes if that’s true. Are there PE firms out there quietly operating great businesses that they’ve acquired? If not, why not? Surely in the long run that’s a better ROI, and private capital should be able to take a longer view, right?
- randcraw 4mo ago> Surely in the long run… And that's the rub. PE is all about short term ROI at any price. Their business model doesn't take product superiority or brand loyalty into account. If a widget can be made cheaper, you do it, damn the collateral damage.
- flanked-evergl 4mo agoI recently decided I will go for the cheap Chinese store brand power tools for most things. It's about 1/5 to 1/3 the price of Ryobi, gets really good reviews, have been sold for more than 10 years now with the same batteries, and comes with a 5 year warranty which is 2 years more than ryobi. It's maybe not going to last 10 years, but at 1/5 the price it does not have to.
- sedawkgrep 4mo agoI think the rule of thumb for non-professionals is: Buy cheap and if you use it enough that it breaks, buy expensive the second time.
- jeffbee 4mo agoBy following this rule you could easily end up with a tool that lasts forever but strips out all your screw heads.
- MarkusQ 4mo agoReplace "breaks" with "fails to work as intended" then. A tool that doesn't break but does smell like a refinery or damages nearby electronics when used, gets strangely hot or inexplicably changes shape when idle, etc. should still be replaced.
- jerf 4mo agoI don't think anyone is asking you to stupidly follow the advice off a cliff. You're welcome to call "stripping all your screw heads" broken and take appropriate action.
- fatbird 4mo agoI don't follow this example. Isn't stripping screw heads a skills issue? How does a tool help/hurt with that?
- everybodyknows 4mo ago
- delichon 4mo ago> Ryobi handles DIY at Home Depot. Milwaukee handles pros. The two brands don't eat each other. They serve different people at different price points with different expectations So market fit is driving both worse and better products at the same time. Cheap DIYers like me are buying the cheapest stuff we can find, and complaining that it's as cheap as its price. My neighbor the contractor buys the expensive stuff and finds that the quality at least somewhat reflects that. Worse on purpose is my fault, because I'm the guy who bought a cheap Ryobi saw, instead of none at all. Plane flights are worse because I'm the guy who buys the cheapest ticket and tolerates the resulting discomforts, instead of staying home. You can see that through the lens of greed and exploitation, or as just a market evolving to supply consumer demand.
- jlglover 4mo agoRyobi make mostly good tools though. The results produced by most Ryobi users, myself included, are limited by user skill not tool quality.
- arka2147483647 4mo agoIf you are a DIY, you might use a tool once a week, or once a year. A pro might use a tool everyday, all day. A different durability requirement. A Ryobi is not bad, if it fills your needs, but might not be enough for heavy use.
- Aurornis 4mo agoWhich is market segmentation at work. If the DIYers get good enough tools at cheap prices and the pros have a separate line that’s more expensive and more durable, what are we supposed to be mad about?
- pandaman 4mo agoThere was an article [1] from the same site about backpacks here couple of weeks ago, with better articulated position by the author: he is mad about market segmentation and believes there should not be different grades of products from the same company. I.e. someone who swings by Walmart to get a cheap backpack to walk some green belt trails should get the backpack capable to last 20 years of climbing Everest and hiking through Darien Gap if the company has such backpacks sold elsewhere. 1. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47777209 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47777209
- mghackerlady 4mo agoSnap-on stays winning
- infecto 4mo agoSnap-on is one of the worst value buys out there. Even for professional mechanics.
- WillAdams 4mo agoThe only Snap-on tools I have, I picked up off the side of the road, except for a ratchet which my father somehow brought home from Vietnam --- his comment on the brand? >It's pretty easy to get the about the same quality, but it's hard to pay more. Just figure out their OEM and buy a Williams brand screwdriver for example. That said, for a professional mechanic, there's a lot of value in buying a tool which one can get warrantied the next time the tool truck makes its rounds.
- infecto 4mo agoWith how well Chinese manufacturing has improved in the last 10-20 years the snap-on edge is largely eroded. You can buy a similar quality tool at Harbor Freight for a quarter of the price that will most likely last just as long. For most of the tools in a mechanics box there is rarely a specific tool that will put you out of work for the day. There is some value having a truck that delivers the items to do and does infield warranty but I don’t think it warrants a 4x cost. I would imagine most mechanics would do well these days buying the premium cheap option, like Icon, and buy better when they know what they need and identify longevity issues. I could absolutely see certain air tools or power tools where you may buy brand but even then the Harbor Freights of the world have come a long way.
- mghackerlady 4mo agoI've never had problems, my father has never had problems, and neither of us have found the price unreasonable for the quality. He does mechanic and electronics work (He works at a motorcycle shop, helps out in the back frequently despite being a glorified secretary) and used to install remote starts. I just think the screwdrivers are nice, use them for electronics repair
- jcattle 4mo ago> The pattern > This isn't a tools story. > The names change. The industries change. The strategy doesn’t. The pattern This isn't an insightful blog. The names change. The topics change. The slop doesn’t.
- awkwardleon 4mo agoFWIW these worseonpurpose articles have been popping up regularly, consistently accused of being slop, and the purported author has been called out as a Palantir AI shill. e.g. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47779481 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47779481
- relaxing 4mo agoWhat’s Palantir’s angle on this? If that’s what it take to draw attention to enshittification then, as the meme says, let them fight.
- 0xbadcafebee 4mo agoI think most pros agree that Klein tools have fallen off. And conspicuously missing on the list is Wiha and Wera. Wiha is a family-owned private company in Germany. Relies on self-funding and conservative growth using long-standing relationships with German banks rather than private equity. They manufacture in Germany, Vietnam, Switzerland, and a tiny plant in the US. Well known by electricians. Much better warranty. Wera is also privately owned, by Bitburger Holding. They avoid debt financing and focus on high-volume production and advertising. Almost all of their manufacturing has left Germany, and is now Czech Republic and Thailand. Well known by auto mechanics. Limited warranty.
- FuriouslyAdrift 4mo agoFor power tools, there's also Festool
- tstrimple 4mo agoFestool is on the expensive side and designed for professional use to justify the investment. I had disposable income and hate sanding, so I splurged on the festool sander and dust extractor. Night and day difference from my dewalt sander and trying to follow it with a dust vac. I don't use it often. But I'm more likely to start a project that needs it knowing it's not going to make my hand numb and clog the air with tons of particles. The other Festool product I picked up is their track saw. Couldn't be happier with the results and the products are really well designed from an ergo/UX standpoint. Though I wouldn't be surprised if you could get just as good of results from a track saw at half the price as long as you use a great blade on it. I like them because they make working much more pleasant than my experience with some other tool brands. Most of the rest of my tools are Dewalt. I settled on them as they have some of the best "prosumer" power tools in woodworking. Their job site table saw and their planer are some of the best available at their price point. Though I'm regretting buying into the battery system. I've seen times where my Dewalt impact couldn't deal with car bolts that a similar Milwaukee zipped right off. Works fine for woodworking though. I've largely replaced my Dewalt battery operated lawn tools with Ego.
- m463 4mo ago
- legitster 4mo agoThe big thing that happened to power tools was Lithium-Ion batteries. All of these companies competed when they were still corded electric tools. You could just make a really good drill or saw or router. Interchangeable batteries got really good and made every set of tools a platform. More importantly, there are only a handful of sources to get batteries from. For all these companies to differentiate and compete they needed to insert their products into wide lines of platforms.
- bluGill 4mo agoThe larger factor here is batteries are expensive enough that you don't want to mix and match. There is no reason your corded drill and saw need to be the same brand so you can choose whatever. However if your cordless drill and saw take the battery that means you don't have to buy as many batteries (or alternatively when your drill battery goes to the charger you take the saw battery instead of being unable to drill any holes). Though people are starting to figure out that there are only a couple different batteries and so a cheap adapter means you don't need to buy all the same anymore.
- syntheticnature 4mo agoThis is why I evaluate if a tool type needs to be cordless when buying. Drills, impact drivers? You want cordless, or to have the option. For a circular saw being used by a homeowner for most DIY purposes, it's worth any arrangement issues to have corded. The cordless ones tend to take less common blade sizes and eat batteries even with the provided extra-lightweight blades.
- fckgw 4mo agoYeah if you look at the power tool industry as a whole, over the last 20 years has seen massive improvements in quality across the board. Cordless tools were a niche product, they could barely run an hour and they didn't have 1/10th the power a corded tool does. Things like cordless angle grinders didn't even exist because there was no way to get the required power to drive them. You also have the advent of brushless tools recently which drive even more power to cordless tools. Smaller, lighter, more power and longer runtime. You put a cheap 18v Ryobi driver against an all metal housing Craftsman corded from the 80s, that cheap plastic Ryobi will outclass that Craftsman every time. Some brands have risen and fallen. What's happened to Porter Cable is a shame. But conversely, how completely competitive a brand like Ryobi has gotten is also a near miracle. It's a great time for power tools!
- DeathArrow 4mo ago>These companies prove the same thing from the opposite direction. You don't have to get acquired. You don't have to take the PE money. You can just keep making good products and telling everyone else to go to hell. It's harder, and it's slower, and the growth chart won't impress a Wall Street analyst. But the tools last. And the brand means something 50 years from now instead of ending up in a clearance bin. How can we convince business owners to take this path? It seems in a future everything will be owned by a few megacorps and crappyfied.
- relaxing 4mo agoPublic trials.
- analog8374 4mo agoFTA : The tool companies that are still good. Klein, Makita, Knipex, Channellock, Hilti, Bosch.
- ChrisMarshallNY 4mo agoI use Makita. WFM. YMMV.
- amluto 4mo agoSigh, DeWalt. A few years ago, there were (I think) first to market with a cordless electric leaf blower that was competitive with gas for serious use — it had a blower in a backpack, two battery slots, used giant 40V “DeWalt XR” batteries, and could operate at high power and for quite a long time. It was far from perfect — the backpack was not so comfortable and a bit heavy, and it was expensive. Still, the market was obviously growing and is currently booming, and DeWalt should have been a leader. Instead they never followed up, and they gave everyone who bought one a giant “screw you” by discontinuing the batteries. And left the market wide open for new players and the big gas landscape tool companies (Stihl, Husqvarna) to step in. Attention executives: when you lead the market in a growing category, you need to invest in it!
- lacewing 4mo agoJust for the record, this is a novelty domain with a history of posting AI-generated articles that are clearly designed to get clicks based on nostalgia for how random things "used to be better": https://news.ycombinator.com/from?site=worseonpurpose.com https://news.ycombinator.com/from?site=worseonpurpose.com
- tencentshill 4mo agoThe author works at Palantir as well. One of the prime offenders for making life and liberty Worse on Purpose.
- kogasa240p 4mo agoKinda baffled why a Palantir goon would make an agitslop article about power tools of all things, but here we are.
- jpadkins 4mo agoI'm glad I'm not the only one that noticed the article felt AI generated.
- stephbook 4mo agoNot just AI generated. Completely full of slop. Generations of readers who never knew anything else.
- kogasa240p 4mo agoOh damn good eye.
- titanomachy 4mo agoI'm so tired of reading things in this imbecilic ChatGPT voice. I'm going to start flagging the most egregious AI slop, following my interpretation of the guidelines: > If a story is spam or off-topic, flag it Dang, feel free to let me know if this is an inappropriate use of flagging.
- CharlesW 4mo agoTip: Emailing the moderation team at hn@ycombinator.com is more effective (and more welcome, I believe) than invoking @dang in comments. They and the rest of the team are preturnaturally responsive.
- titanomachy 4mo agoThanks, I'll do that.
- chadgpt3 4mo agoI don't believe submitting AI slop is against the guidelines.
- npilk 4mo agoYep, clearly written by AI. Seems like an SEO-type play where they just have AI do deep research and write these reports on as many categories as possible to get traction. Pretty smart business idea as I imagine people love ragebait about why products aren't as good as they used to be.
- deleted 4mo ago[deleted]
- RobotToaster 4mo agoThe metabo situation is weird, the European company appears to be completely different to the one in the USA>
- stephbook 4mo agoAlso Bosch is missing.
- quickthrowman 4mo agoMilwaukee tools are fine, I’ve got 20+ electricians working for me with Milwaukee tools. Hilti are better, but 2-3x more expensive. There is a specific Hilti tool that allows concrete anchors to be shot in without powder, which lets us work in occupied spaces during regular hours instead of on double time, it’s $1,000 but pays for itself in a day: https://www.hilti.com/c/CLS_POWER_TOOLS_7125/CLS_DIRECT_FASTENING_7125/r13250388?activeTab=preconfigured-kits-tabs https://www.hilti.com/c/CLS_POWER_TOOLS_7125/CLS_DIRECT_FAST... All power tools anre engineered for the bathtub curve. My guys like Milwaukee because the Makita portaband (metal bandsaw for cutting conduit) has a crappy tensioner and the blade falls off every 10 cuts. I’d rather pay someone not to keep putting a blade back on. I have no special love for Milwaukee, but one of the fundamental electrician power tools being that much more reliable makes buying into the whole line worth it. It’s not always about the cost of the tool itself, but minimizing downtime when labor costs over $100/hr
- Aurornis 4mo agoThis article is missing conversation about tools. It’s as if someone prompted ChatGPT to look up business deals for power tool companies and then write a summary with dollar amounts in bold. There are some exceptions in every product line, but the current crop of power tools are actually pretty good. If you know people in the trades they can tell you which specific products are best in each category because trades people are generally very good at sharing that info on social media with each other.
- margalabargala 4mo ago> It’s as if someone prompted ChatGPT Yes it is. I think you're on to something here.
- Starman_Jones 4mo agoWay back when, Black & Decker tried to make a push with a professional line of high-quality tools, but nobody was buying them because of B&D’s reputation for cheap, low-quality tools. So they had to introduce a whole new brand line with a distinctive yellow paint scheme. Sad to see them repeating the same mistakes.
- jcims 4mo agoHow is this post two hours old and I don't see any references to Project Farm: https://www.youtube.com/c/projectfarm https://www.youtube.com/c/projectfarm One of the best review channels for products in this area. I moved from DeWalt to Milwaukee for most of my daily drivers about six years ago and have been very happy with them, but for things I will rarely use I tend to go with whatever Harbor Freight is selling. If I break it then it's time to upgrade.
- LgWoodenBadger 4mo agohttps://www.youtube.com/@TorqueTestChannel https://www.youtube.com/@TorqueTestChannel is another great channel for more tool-specific reviews
- isk517 4mo agoI feel so lucky to have an arsenal of power tools purchased by my father and grandfather. My 65 year old Black&Decker circular saw still works flawlessly.
- AndrewKemendo 4mo ago> But the tools last. And the brand means something 50 years from now instead of ending up in a clearance bin. Professional builders, craftsman and people who care about their art care about these things. The people that these companies are selling to (Home Depot “weekend warriors”) do not care about these things which is why they continue to sell despite the alternative existing at a higher price point And even most entry-level professionals these days are using whatever they can get. I went to a yard sale in Manassas Virginia which is very blue-collar and mostly people working on houses and mowing lawns and things and somebody was selling all of their DeWalt tools because they just bought a new set for cheaper than they could’ve bought a really solid tool.
- deleted 4mo ago[deleted]
- tennisflyi 4mo agoProject Farm often shows middle of the road/big box store tools are often pretty average - what the consumer often wants/needs
- oliwarner 4mo agoWe need: "Investigatory blogging got worse on purpose: using LLMs to confirm popular biases for attention". I'm not saying this site doesn't speak some truths, but previous on this topic have been so thin, and ignore battery, motor and materials improvements that they totally undercut a real discussion on tool quality and value. If you actually want to talk tools, find a DIY/woodworking group.
- maxglute 4mo agoLatest Chinese pro/industrial handtools from DongCheng (DCK in west) basically on par with topshelf like Makita in performance and feel for 50% the price. They've closed gap. Probably one of those sectors where legacy brands are on their way out. Tools are getting better and cheaper but obfuscated behind market segmentation in different regions. Pseudo related is I really enjoy well designed lifestyle DIY tool brands like HOTO, started with slick electric screw drivers for building PCs, and now pretty DIY kits that's nice to look at on small projects.
- 486sx33 4mo ago[dead]