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Germany and Italy pressed to bring $245B of gold home from US
- ToddWBurgess 1y agoSounds like the start of the plot for a heist movie
- amelius 1y agoOr a deep sea diving movie
- junga 1y agoHonest question: does this necessarily require the physical transport of gold?
- reactordev 1y agoNot necessarily. It’s fair to wager that the gold they speak of is gold securities and not literal gold bars because if they try to collect gold bars they’re going to be sad.
- corford 1y agoNot sure for Italy but I believe in Germany's case it is physical bars
- kasey_junk 1y agoThe gold in question is physical gold. Almost certainly standardized bars.
- reactordev 1y agoConsidering the US only has 8,000 tonnes of gold total, this is going to be interesting. I don’t think their gold is just sitting in a closet in manhattan.
- ceejayoz 1y agohttps://www.newyorkfed.org/aboutthefed/goldvault.html https://www.newyorkfed.org/aboutthefed/goldvault.html > As of 2024, the vault housed approximately 507,000 gold bars, with a combined weight of 6,331 metric tons. The vault is able to support this weight because it rests on the bedrock of Manhattan Island, 80 feet below street level and 50 feet below sea level. > Following the verification process, the gold is moved to one of the vault’s 122 compartments, where each compartment contains gold held by a single account holder (meaning that gold is not commingled between account holders). It’s a very fancy closet.
- tomw1808 1y agoactually the closet isn't fancy, its just the content. Like HN, I don't visit the site for the great design, I come for the golden content. ... Sry, I had to...
- pglevy 1y agoThanks for the link! I wonder how this works. Is there just no practical impact of the "book value" being so far off the market price? Surely any exchange is done at the prevailing rates. > The market value of a gold bar depends on its weight, purity level, and the prevailing market price for gold. Rather than market pricing which fluctuates daily, the New York Fed uses the United States official book value of $42.2222 per troy ounce for gold holdings.
- ceejayoz 1y ago> Surely any exchange is done at the prevailing rates. Nothing prevents Germany from just gifting Poland a few bars in exchange for resolution of some minor border dispute.
- kasey_junk 1y agoThat 8000 tonnes number is how much gold the US owns themselves. Not gold held for foreign governments.
- 627467 1y agoWhat else would be meaningful in this context? Are sovereign countries currently restricted in trading gold backed securities when stored abroad? I don't think so.
- WinstonSmith84 1y agoThat's what it is about. If it were securities, that would be practically irrelevant. The gold is stored in Manhattan, in the Fed Reserve Bank of NY.
- petesergeant 1y agoNo, they could sell the gold in the US to purchase gold that’s already physically closer for a slight premium. Possibly that ends up being cheaper than actual transport.
- djtango 1y agoIn December there was a large movement of physical gold from London to New York as banks closed their EFP arbs. This was enough to put a lot of pressure on the market. I imagine if Germany did that with their reserves a similar effect would come about.
- petesergeant 1y agoThe question is if it screws the market prices more than the cost of lifting and shifting the gold themselves, which presumably would not be cheap.
- _lvbh 1y agohttps://archive.is/20250623093918/https://www.ft.com/content/e39390cc-ea02-4197-843a-1e4c242422cc https://archive.is/20250623093918/https://www.ft.com/content... I have doubts the current US administration would let them without some sort of retaliation (e.g. more tariffs)
- reedf1 1y agoIf your friend goes to an ATM for $20 and their bank fines them with a large percentage fee on their income; are you likely to also choose this bank?
- PicassoCTs 1y agoYou assume you are trying to run the bank profitable. But maybe you are just a very good friend, of another bank, that wants to see your bank bankrupt?
- 627467 1y agoYou just discovered the concept of natural monopoly
- stackedinserter 1y agoIf I go to any bank to withdraw $50000 in cash, they won't let me either.
- Arnt 1y agoYou just need to give advance warning, and perhaps pick up the cash at a big branch where the bank has good security. This isn't difficult.
- stackedinserter 1y agoGetting this gold is not difficult either, on the state scale of difficulty. It's just not that easy like your uber eats delivery.
- 1y ago
- amelius 1y agoQuestion, how do you test if a bar of gold is really 100% gold without deforming it?
- roenxi 1y agoThe cheap approach is to check the density - weigh it and measure the volume. But I don't see what the issue would be with melting the gold down to check. There isn't that much of it.
- jcla1 1y agoMeasure its volume by dunking it in a jug of water and compare its weight with its expected weight (depending on the density of gold). There is a famous tale of Archimedes doing exactly this when posed with the problem of determining if a certain crown is made of pure gold.
- reedf1 1y agoPresuming you can create an alloy with the same density as gold, I imagined you could also test it's conductivity. I think performing both tests would be enough.
- celticninja 1y agoNo need for an alloy tungsten will do.
- adrian_b 1y agoIt is rather expensive to make objects of pure tungsten. The tungsten objects that you see for sale are not pure and they have a density more than 5% lower than gold, which is easy to detect by weighing.
- celticninja 1y agohttps://www.businessinsider.com/tungsten-filled-gold-bars-found-in-new-york-2012-9 https://www.businessinsider.com/tungsten-filled-gold-bars-fo...
- amarcheschi 1y agoI have no idea of the strategy behind it, but for some reasons italy has a lot of gold despite not buying it since a few decades https://www.bancaditalia.it/compiti/riserve-portafoglio-rischi/evoluzione-riserve/index.html?com.dotmarketing.htmlpage.language=1&dotcache=refresh https://www.bancaditalia.it/compiti/riserve-portafoglio-risc...
- diggan 1y agoGood idea, no counter-party exposure like if you used USD, and seems to have worked as an inflation/crisis hedge judging by how well Italy did in the euro-crisis ~2008.
- OtherShrezzing 1y agoA huge pile of gold in a secure location allows a government to operate in exile essentially forever without creating substantial debts for the home nation. It's not just "Italy's gold", it's "Contemporary Italy's gold". Norway & the Netherlands moved their gold right before the Nazi invasions in the 40's, and were able to continue operating in exile as a result. Taiwan was established on the back of this tactic too, with the Chinese nationalists moving their gold out of the mainland into Taiwan when they realised they'd lose to the Communists.
- seydor 1y agothey could just buy bitcoin.
- ceejayoz 1y agoYou are unlikely to open the NY Fed's vault one day to find it suddenly empty. There's a benefit to having your country's wealth being physically difficult to move.
- lcnPylGDnU4H9OF 1y agoRegardless of the other economic aspects, bitcoin is objectively less dependable than gold. One is a network of complex machines, which all require constant power, and the other is rocks in a room.
- DarkmSparks 1y agoTrump administration should call in ex AOL execs for some consulting work.
- squishington 1y agoEnron was 25 years too early.
- DarkmSparks 1y agoI was thinking more for their skills on preventing people from cancelling.
- theGeatZhopa 1y agoBring it home. US can't be trusted anymore. Bring it home.
- cantor_S_drug 1y ago[flagged]
- nxm 1y ago*can’t be taken advantage of anymore easily
- kingkawn 1y ago* can’t be considered a valued friend and mutually beneficial ally anymore at all
- mystified5016 1y ago*is now actively hostile toward her allies
- twixfel 1y ago*and inexplicably treats most of its enemies better than it treats its allies
- theGeatZhopa 1y agoYou mean "the gold of others in your hands?" ... Yes, that's the idea of "bring it home", so no one gets an advantage of except the owner. You never know what the orange man will propose in the next hour. But I'm with you. I wouldn't call it "advantage taking" though. I rather would call it a friendship based on "trust, reliance and opportunities" for all. Now, we see, it was wrong. The US can't be trusted anymore. It was an egoistic and toxic relationship - I'm happy it has an ending, now.
- jxjnskkzxxhx 1y agoPeople are taking advantage of the US by asking the US to hold their gold? Let me guess who you voted for.
- brainzap 1y agowho even needs a ton of gold?
- jgalt212 1y agoWho even needs a ton of Bitcoin?
- alphazard 1y agoGold has numerous applications. Bitcoin's only application is inserting information in an append only ledger. It's among the most durable ledgers, but also the most expensive and slowest to insert into.
- samus 1y agoGold doesn't derive its value from those applications. It is valuable for the same reason as Bitcoin is: I can't create it out of thin air to screw you over when I settle a transaction.
- seviu 1y agoSettling a transaction might be in this case the ship with the gold sinking in the ocean. This is one of the primary reasons Bitcoin exists. As long as I can remember the seed phrase it’s always with me. And main reason why I would rather have bitcoin than gold. Transporting all that gold will be a tad more difficult though. I wish they luck though.
- samus 1y agoBanks commonly deposit gold at other banks or branches in other countries precisely to avoid the sinking ship problem. Paying with gold turns into an accounting transaction or into a visit to the vault.
- gosub100 1y agoGermany and Italy, it says so in the title of the article.
- mklarmann 1y agoIMO the US should have never been trusted, but maybe the argument that this a Trump issue creates critical mass to move this forward. There is enough incentive for the US to not be transparent about the actual gold that is left.
- mrweasel 1y ago> US should have never been trusted Depends on when gold was shipped to the US. For the better part of the 20th century there was absolutely no reason for most of it's friends and allies to not trust the US. Especially if you deposited your gold with the US around the world wars or any time before the mid 60s really.
- resource_waste 1y ago>IMO the US should have never been trusted I propose, they had never been trusted. Nations do not believe in trust. At the International Relations level, IR Realism is basically the only generally accepted policy. You may have a few Constructivists, but the smartest ones still put trust and norms below power calculations. Its really that the average person has essentially no understanding of IR and history. I assure you that verification methods have been happening. The amount of trust was less than the amount of verification.
- bluecalm 1y agoPoland also have around $50B in gold reserves. Is there some law or unwritten law that requires Central Banks to keep so much gold? It looks like waste of resources to me, especially so if it's kept abroad. Is there a scenario in which it's better than just keeping reserves in mix of various government's bonds or some other asset like land or something else.
- charlieyu1 1y agoThe point of holding gold is that it is a physical asset that is always valuable. It’s also an very risk-averse asset.
- Bairfhionn 1y agoThe idea of all countries having it in one location: If you have to transfer money to a different country for whatever reason you just have to put the gold from one part of the vault to the other. Money securely, physically and quickly transferred. Also you have the physical money and don't rely on computers or similar. More secure (if you ignore Die Hard 3). If countries start moving the gold away it's a) sign that they need the money elsewhere or b) they don't trust the current location anymore.
- sdwr 1y agoWhen you have all the money, what do you worry about? Gold is a hedge.
- piokoch 1y agoThis is called war chest. Because the war is coming. II World War hasn't started with German attacking Poland 1.IX.1939 and Russia (Soviet Union) on 17.IX.1939. There was Spanish Civil War earlier (1936), annexation of the Sudetenland - part of Czechoslovakia in 1938.
- tboyd47 1y agoLaw of the jungle
- myrmidon 1y agoThis is not as much as it looks like at first glance. "Revenue" for the german state is something around $2000B, while their ~3000 tons of gold are worth ~300B. It is plausible to me that building up a gold reserve might be worth it, longterm, purely because the gained trust/perceived stability nets you slightly better conditions when financing megaprojects alone (like the Fehmarn tunnel): Over a few centuries you might save tax dollars thanks to investing into bigger gold reserves earlier. And gold is objectively useful if things go to shit-- just look at Russia for a recent example-- gold is nice for mitigating sanctions and stabilizing your currency under bad conditions.
- deleted 1y ago[deleted]
- mk89 1y agoGermany has been doing this for years now. [0] Probably Italy too... 0: https://discoveryalert.com.au/news/germany-gold-repatriation-plan-holdings-2025/ https://discoveryalert.com.au/news/germany-gold-repatriation...
- SuperShibe 1y agoThe Germans in this article all appear to be aligned to either BSW (populist far-left, pro-Russia, anti-US) or AfD (populist far-right, pro-Russia). BSW wasn't even elected into the parliament and AfD, while being part of the parliament, has virtually no power due to not being part of the government coalition and all other parties sharing an informal agreement to not pass legislations with the help of AfD. What I'm trying to say is that these two do not represent the German political landscape at all. They also, while on different ends of the left-right-spectrum, both only represent the pro-Russian minority of the German political landscape. This is not a debate happening in Germany right now and no other party has expressed support of any position.
- FpUser 1y agoSo repatriating your own property is now pro-Russian propaganda? Unless country is defenseless what is wrong with keeping one's things at one's place
- littlestymaar 1y agoBoth things can be true at once: the politicians talking can have legitimates arguments while being part of pro-Russian parties that don't have power in Germany and do not represent the German government opinion.
- FpUser 1y agoWell then the arguments should be considered on their merits without bringing political BS. Otherwise following the logic if Afd tells Merz not to jump from that bridge he should do the opposite.
- littlestymaar 1y agoIt's not the argument made in the top level post, they are just saying “What I'm trying to say is that these two do not represent the German political landscape at all. […] This is not a debate happening in Germany right now and no other party has expressed support of any position.” Maybe there should be a real debate on that topic, or maybe Germany should even pursue such a repatriation of their gold reserves, but as a matter of fact there's no such debate or plan besides fringes parties, that's it.
- jxjnskkzxxhx 1y agoThe US has a history of pulling this kind of stuff on its allies. To mind comes pulling out of Breton Woods. To those not aware, at some point in the past the US told the world: the dollar is as good as gold, you can convert it at any time you want, pinky promise. Later: lol joking, I'm keeping the gold, enjoy your dollars. I wonder what it says about Europe that its leaders are still falling for these rugpulls. That they are uneducated is the most generous reading I can think of.
- Nifty3929 1y agoProbably because, with full knowledge and awareness of the history you describe - they still feel their gold is safer in NY than in their own country. Europe and it's governments have history too.
- twodave 1y agoThis is a little skewed based on my understanding. What actually happened to precipitate this was some European countries intentionally attempting to destabilize the dollar, gold having been pegged to a specific dollar amount. Obviously (to me, at least) such an action, threatening a country’s solvency, can’t just be allowed to go on, especially from the position of strength the US had in 1944 (literally a physical presence in 100% of the developed world’s ports at the time). And let’s not forget that part of the deal was that the US would guarantee maritime security, which they have fulfilled for nearly 100 years. I would say that’s worth quite a bit more than whatever gold is in dispute, given that it allowed for the rise of globalization in the first place. What really caused the end of the BW financial system was the inability of a world economy to be backed by gold in the first place. This coincided with the US leaving the gold standard in 1971, and this was only ~5-10 years after the instability began. So the system still enjoyed 15-20 years of operating as intended.
- mensetmanusman 1y agoAnd the system resulted in the largest wealth transformation in human history with extreme poverty being nearly obliterated.
- 1y ago
- patrickk 1y ago> A secret report by Germany’s Federal Audit Office leaked to the public last week states that the Federal Reserve Bank of New York refuses to allow Bundebank staff to even view the gold, triggering suspicions that the vaults are empty as well as calls for the gold to be shipped back to Berlin. > The Fed implements stringent security controls, and refuses even Bundesbank staff full access to the German gold hoard. A team of personnel demanding access in 2007 were only allowed to visit the anteroom of the reserves, and when Bundebank auditors visited in May 2011 only one of nine compartments was opened for direct handling. > The Federal Reserve’s fervent secrecy has engendered suspicion and concern, with some claiming that Germany’s gold has long ago disappeared or been lent out, and that only promissory notes of nominal value are sitting in the vault. https://www.mining.com/germans-begin-to-demand-their-gold-back-after-new-york-federal-reserve-rebuffs-access-requests-52759/ https://www.mining.com/germans-begin-to-demand-their-gold-ba...
- myrmidon 1y agoNote that Germany already finished bringing back 300 tons of gold from NYC and about the same amount from Paris in 2016, so this is a bit out of date (that whole transfer was completed ahead of schedule, which indicates, in hindsight, that probably not all the German gold in NYC was missing completely in 2011 :P).
- Eduard 1y agoNote that "currently, 37 per cent of the Bundesbank’s gold reserves are stored in New York.", as per today's FT article.
- patrickk 1y agoYes indeed, this article is outdated. But I posted it to counter the other comments here which are trying to draw links to Trump bring the reason that the Bundesbank don’t believe the US Fed. In fact, some in Germany have long mistrusted the Fed’s word on how much German gold is still actually in the vaults. Here is a very fun, deeply speculative article from Zerohedge on this topic, from 2013: https://archive.is/dVIK3 https://archive.is/dVIK3 > That's right, ladies and gentlemen, as a result of our cursory examination, we have learned that the world's largest private, and commercial, gold vault, that belonging once upon a time to Chase Manhattan, and now to JPMorgan Chase, is located, right across the street, and at the same level underground, resting just on top of the Manhattan bedrock, as the vault belonging to the New York Federal Reserve, which according to folklore is the official location of the biggest collection of sovereign, public gold in the world. > At this point we would hate to be self-referential, and point out what one of our own commentators noted on the topic of the Fed's vault a year ago, namely that: > Chase Plaza (now the Property of JPM) is linked to the facility via tunnel... I have seen it. The elevators on the Chase side are incredible. They could lift a tank. > ... but we won't, and instead we will let readers make up their own mind why the the thousands of tons of sovereign gold in the possession of the New York Fed, have to be literally inches across, if not directly connected, to the largest private gold vault in the world. Edit: more details about the underground vaults- https://www.bullionstar.com/blogs/ronan-manly/keys-gold-vaults-new-york-fed-part-2-auxiliary-vault/ https://www.bullionstar.com/blogs/ronan-manly/keys-gold-vaul...
- scrlk 1y agoThe TradFi version of "not your keys, not your crypto".
- jxjnskkzxxhx 1y agoDamn. I despise crypto, but even I have to admit that there's some power behind this comment. Not because crypto isn't shit, which it is, but because letting someone else hold your gold is stupid. As stupid as letting someone else have your crypto keys. Bravo.
- johncole 1y ago[flagged]
- jxjnskkzxxhx 1y agoPlease don't do this. If it's here it's because enough people find it interesting. This shouldn't be surprising, and there's a lot of content about how money works that finds it way into HN. If you don't like it just downvote and move on.
- Nifty3929 1y agoI think people greatly overestimate the importance of gold. Gold cannot feed your people, or win a war or cure a disease. And in a crisis likely won't be useful for buying things that do. Gold is maybe just a bit better than fiat currency. Even in terms of inflation, what would happen to the market value of gold (not in Dollar terms, but in terms of what it can buy) if the government decided to spend down $200B in gold to buy stuff with?
- cma 1y agoIn a regional crisis it will
- Nifty3929 1y agoHow? This issue is never money - it's always availability and logistics. In a regional crisis, what would you do with the gold? Is there anything to buy from outside the region? If so, how would you get it in? And does gold really help here, or would the other countries give it to you or lend it to you anyway?
- cma 1y agoSometimes you have one border blocked from one side, and another not blocked from the other. For instance when the UN split up Israel they gave the Isrealites connectivity to the Mediterrean and the sea, only country other than Egypt to span both and enormously valuable. Huge value loss to the Palestinians: Israel has even had plans for a canal. Worth noting the UN partition plan was never actually adopted in a binding way.
- regularization 1y ago> And in a crisis likely won't be useful for buying things that do. In a crisis, the value of gold holds more than that of the Papiermark, or even the US dollar - I can buy only one egg for the two I could have bought five years ago. Gold is uniform, portable, divisible and durable - useful attributes in a crisis, and worth more than Confederate dollars. Gold is useful - for filling teeth, for electronic coating. It's value has stayed normal for thousands of years - although in times of inflation or crisis it might become a little overvalued temporarily as people flee to its safety. One could switch to other precious metals like silver, but this happens to them too.
- Havoc 1y agoHonestly at this stage all countries should pull their gold. The system was somewhat reasonable when the US acted more or less benevolent, but clearly when we're in a space where the US threatens to invade allies then they clearly are no longer trustworthy
- resource_waste 1y agoAs someone deep into International Relations, I always find it a bit interesting to hear when someone says 'X nation is untrustworthy'. I mostly find it interesting because it means some event disrupted norms to a level that The Commons is aware. Everyone in IR knows trust/morals is not something to put weight into, but 'normies' are always surprised whenever there is a chance in IR that contradicts international law or norms. It will surprise most Americans to realize the world is not governed by Liberalism/Institutions, despite the veil presented. However, at the highest level the world is managed by the principles of IR Realism. 'Trust' is subordinate to national interests, the purpose of trust is small, only enough to make deals. However, even then, deals are always backed by verification methods and checked consistently. None of this is unique to the US, The West, or this century.
- twixfel 1y agoIf you didn't trust someone, you wouldn't give them all your gold to look after. That's called trust. You can dress it up in terms of realism or whatever, but it's trusting to do it nevertheless.
- Havoc 1y agoWas about 50/50 when I wrote the comment whether to go with unreliable or untrustworthy. But I think given context of gold held on little more than a pink promise trust is the right word here I think >It will surprise most Americans to realize the world is not governed by Liberalism/Institutions Yeah was surprised to recently discover less than <50% of the world pop is under democracy. Weird how distorted our perceptions are
- waltercool 1y ago[dead]
- neonate 1y agohttps://archive.is/6CDR5 https://archive.is/6CDR5
- tock 1y agoNot sure why people call this Russian propaganda. India flew in lots of their gold too recently. Central banks have been increasing their exposure to gold a lot recently as well. If trust in the US is low then it makes sense to move your reserves. Countries are rightfully fearful of their reserves being frozen for whatever reason.
- crossroadsguy 1y ago> for whatever reason And the biggest of that is: —— "Look, I don't know... I really don't know. We're talking about a country's gold, very valuable, very beautiful. And we might freeze it. Or we might not. I mean, who knows? It's a big decision, a very big decision. Some people say, 'Freeze it, Mr. President! It'll be great, the best!' Others, and good people, they say, 'Maybe not, maybe we do something else.' But I'll tell you what, I do like frozen things. They're nice. Very nice. You know, you freeze something, it's solid, it's secure. It's beautiful. It's really beautiful. So we'll see. We'll see what happens. It's all on the table. Believe me." —- And you’d still say itself far fetched? :-)
- lawn 1y agoI can't tell if this is a joke or if it's something Trump has said, and that is scary.
- throwaway984393 1y ago[dead]
- stray 1y agoAugust 15, 1971 — just sayin'
- londons_explore 1y agoWhy would any country store it's own gold outside its own borders? For any nation state, storage and security costs will be tiny compared to geopolitical risk and leverage they're giving away by storing it abroad.
- Loughla 1y agoStore it somewhere safe and stable, that way if you're invaded the government in exile can still access the country's wealth to fund resistance and what-not, or at least keep the invaders from just taking it. Source: all that stolen wealth in WW2.
- londons_explore 1y agoBut it also means that if there is a regime change, the new government will have no money to run the nation, and will have to seriously harm the quality of life of the inhabitants to re-earn those savings through taxation. It really seems like one option here is best for maintaining the status quo with the existing government, whilst the other is best for the people of the nation.
- throwaway984393 1y ago[dead]
- gen3 1y agoTrade becomes easier. Metaphorically pushing the bar across the room. Countries also keep cash funds at the NY Federal reserve too
- bamboozled 1y agoThere is no way the current admin will let this go without a fight, or at all.
- alephnerd 1y agoI am absolutely startled by the amount of AfW and BSW apologism on this thread. At some point I have to wonder if this is even organic - especially given that companies like Upvote Club have openly advertised being able to bypass the bot detectors on HN. And nation state bots have occasionally been on HN - one similar nation state backed disinfo network that Meta cracked down on in 2023 was posting on HN as well.
- mensetmanusman 1y agoPirates be awakened.