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Cautionary tale on using Chase bank for indie business
- nell 2y agoI followed the saga as Jason was going through this. You may not have the same sway as large entities if you are an indie dev.
- briandw 2y agoI know that it's an extra expense, but shouldn't you get a lawyer involved first thing?
- jxnlco 2y agoi was just a dude with 3 contractors, i figured it'd just get resolved cause i didnt do anything wrong...
- stuff4ben 2y agoYou run a business without a lawyer? Ballsy!
- appletrotter 2y agoNot uncommon
- jxnlco 2y agoindie consulting is pretty small scale
- BizarroLand 2y agoIt probably wouldn't hurt you to make a lawyer acquaintance and put one on retainer. A few hundred bucks upfront and you'll have someone you can call to help take care of things like this.
- briandw 2y agoI can absolutely see myself falling into that same trap. Thinking that it's just a misunderstanding and that it'll get resolved any day now, just have to do one more thing. They can't be that unreasonable right? The unfortunate lesson that that you have to assume the worst and escalate right away.
- commercialnix 2y agoThis.
- commercialnix 2y agoYou need access to a good lawyer or you're going to get run over. When you sue, you can sue for legal costs, damages to your business, and punitive damages.
- galaxyLogic 2y agoLawyer would be great but it may be that you have agreed to a contract which says you cannot sue them, only arbitration.
- criddell 2y agoArbitration isn't necessarily a bad thing. And you probably still want to have a lawyer involved.
- galaxyLogic 2y agoI don't know much about arbitration but I assume it cannot be a good thing if you don't have the right to sue any more.
- eadler 2y agopre-dispute arbitration agreements are bad. https://arbitrationinformation.org/docs/problems/ https://arbitrationinformation.org/docs/problems/ there are some very few aspects that can be positives under some conditions (speed, informality, etc.), it is almost certainly outweighed by the negatives.
- londons_explore 2y agoDiversifying in many cases won't help you. If a bank suspects fraud, they can tell other banks about their suspicion, which will cause all banks to freeze your accounts and none will be able to tell you why.
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- leotravis10 2y agoEspecially if/when a person or business goes into the ChexSystems "blacklist" [1] where that individual or business can't have a bank account in the US, Canada, and EU for five to seven years. [1] https://www.nerdwallet.com/article/banking/blocked-by-chexsystems-what-to-know https://www.nerdwallet.com/article/banking/blocked-by-chexsy...
- meowster 2y agoI wonder if anyone has successfully sued a credit-reporting business for libel.
- ravenstine 2y agoWould this also apply to credit unions? I feel like a credit union is less likely to give a f*** about what some bank tells them, and a bank probably doesn't want to help credit unions anyway. Am I wrong?
- londons_explore 2y agoI think most are scared about the law. "You had information that X was linked to a terrorist organisation, and yet you still let them open an account and transfer $Ym?. Big fine and/or prison".
- 650REDHAIR 2y agoThe most important lesson learned here is not to ever deal with retail banking at the branch. Not only do they not care they aren’t given the authority or autonomy to help you. By trying to do this at multiple branches across the country OP likely made the problem worse as those actions raise suspicions even more. With that much money after the first day of inaction by support he should have CC’d every department from legal@ to the C-suite.
- mminer237 2y agoIt's definitely exacerbated by being a big bank though. If I have a problem with my local bank, I can literally walk into the branch and probably just talk to a VP about it straight-away if needed.
- syntheticnature 2y agoYes, though banks use "VP" in a title the same way "Senior" is used in software.
- bluGill 2y agoThis is a legal thing - a vice president or above is required to sign off on a large loan (like a house loan which isn't all that big to a bank). Thus banks give lots of people vice president titles, but those people don't have any authority except to give the large loans. They get an impressive title though.
- smeej 2y agoThis is even more true at a local credit union. Add in the co-op network of credit unions, where you can go to any branch of any of the member unions (50k+ branches last time I checked, but it's been awhile) and it's hard for me to understand why people bother with these big banks.
- nraynaud 2y agoWhen I looked at local credit unions in Arizona, none of them would be able to deal with international transactions.
- physhster 2y agoBusiness or Personal, do not ever rely on a single bank. Ever. Have a backup, ideally far enough from your "main" bank that any issue doesn't bleed over.
- benzible 2y agoAbout 10 years ago a startup I co-founded had about $3M in a Chase account. We received a notification that they were closing our account within 30 days. We weren't able to get any information but I assume this was a KYC false positive. The only thing I can think of is that we had some investors from the Middle East. We had no problem withdrawing our funds but since then, I've opened another business account and a personal travel credit card with Chase, both of which were shut down within weeks, so apparently I'm personally flagged for life.
- jxnlco 2y agoholy shit. They never gave me an answer but the last thing the KYC team did (outside of executive branch) was just confirm a 25k invoice =_=
- benzible 2y agoJust for posterity, we received this on 6/28/2013. Looks like they actually gave us 60 days. > Dear [redacted] Inc. > A review of our records indicates that we are unable to retain your above-referenced account(s) (the "Accounts") at JPMorgan Chase Bank, N.A. (the "Bank"). > The terms and conditions governing the Accounts ("Account Rules") provide that the Bank may close your Accounts at any time. Although the Account Rules do not require the Bank to provide you with advance notice of the termination of the Accounts, as a courtesy, please be advised that the Accounts will be terminated and closed after the close of business on 08/26/2013. Any items presented for payment on the Accounts and not paid prior to termination will be returned unpaid. If the Accounts were covered by Overdraft Protection, as that term is defined in the Account Rules, such Overdraft Protection will terminate with respect to the Accounts on the Termination Date. > Please do not deposit checks to the Accounts within five (5) business days of the Termination Date or any earlier date that you close the Accounts. Please arrange to cause any Automated Clearing House or ACH deposits or transfers to the Accounts to be terminated prior to closure. Provided that no checks have been deposited to your Accounts within the five (5) business day period before the Accounts are closed and no deposits of any kind have been made to your Accounts within a two (2) business day period before such closure, upon closure the Bank will, at your risk, mail to you at the address set forth above a check for the balance of your Accounts, less any service charges assessed to the Accounts. If deposits are made to the Accounts prior to closure inconsistent with the foregoing, the Bank will mail your check as soon as reasonably possible following closure of the Accounts. If you wish to make other arrangements for receipt of any funds remaining in the Accounts or if you have questions, please contact 1-877-691-8086 OPTION-NUMBER-1. > Notwithstanding the Bank's intent to allow the Accounts to remain open until as set forth above, the Bank reserves the right to close the Accounts earlier, at any time, for any reason, without notice. > Sincerely, > Chase Operating Loss Prevention
- gojomo 2y agoCrypto solves this. Well, eventually, after initially making it worse, because all your crypto-adjacent transactions in the meantime make legacy banks extra-hair-trigger suspicious.
- xur17 2y agoThis seems somewhat contentious, but having some assets outside of the banks is a pretty reasonable derisking mechanism. Bitcoin, and some stablecoins seem like a wise choice.
- staticidentity 2y ago[flagged]
- ProllyInfamous 2y agoMy local credit union has gone from anti crypto to fully support; I was one of a dozen or so people who were able to provide legitimate datapoints to support bitcoin usages that weren't illegal. So glad I was able to just walk in to the local HQ and have a sit-down with the person who ultimately authorized crypto exchange transactions. YMMV
- smeej 2y agoSome crypto does. Many cryptos are worse. For example, USDC accounts can be frozen by a single entity with no recourse whatsoever.
- lisper 2y ago> Crypto solves this. Not really. It just replaces this problem with a different but equally difficult problem: managing your crypto keys, which is a skill in and of itself. And if you hire someone to do it for you now you are right back where you started, trusting a third party. The right answer IMHO is to do business with a bank that is small enough that you have a contact there whom you personally know and will pick up the phone when you call.
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- ceejayoz 2y ago[flagged]
- staticidentity 2y ago[flagged]
- ProllyInfamous 2y ago[flagged]
- staticidentity 2y ago[flagged]
- pengaru 2y agoWhen I first moved to the SF Bay it tickled me to find there was no retail Chase Bank presence at all. Then the financial collapse and bailouts happened, Chase scooped up WaMu, and now Chase is everywhere here. :sadpanda: I won't even take money from their ATMs if I can avoid it, my bank covers ATM fees, but f*ck giving that company another dime.
- wanderr 2y agoIs there a bank you recommend? Mostly I use online banks but every now and then you just need to go to a physical bank. I am a bit nomadic so one with branches all over the country would be good, although I know those are the most likely to be terrible
- techsupporter 2y agoMost credit unions participate in the credit union shared branching network, so I recommend joining your local credit union of choice. You can then go into the branches of several other credit unions to do most banking needs. The caveat is if there's a major problem, like here, then you'd need to deal directly with your home credit union.
- wanderr 2y agoOh wow, I had never heard of that. I already have a CU on the other side of the country that I still use for loans because they've always had the lowest rates. I'll have to see if they participate.
- martin_ 2y agoGlad you got your money back Jason! Not often you get to read a post from the future, either ;) "posted on 2024/09/21"
- jxnlco 2y agofuck lol, i messed up the date but if i fix it it breaks the url
- tantalor 2y agoTitle is different? Should be: Chasing Chase: Why I'll Never Trust Chase Bank Again, A Yuppie Nightmare
- CliffStoll 2y agoSimilar experience: Citibank Retirement. I had about $80,000 in IRA/CD's. I'd created & contributed to them over a period of 35 years. Last year, it's time to retire, and Citibank won't give me half the money. It seems that some CD's are for "Cliff Stoll" and some for "Clifford Stoll". Citibank Retirement demanded a "Marriage Certificate, Divorce Decree, or Court Order" to demonstrate that "Cliff Stoll" is the same person as "Clifford Stoll". Took more than 8 months, dozens of emails, five visits to Citibank offices, and a letter to the Citibank president, to shake loose money that I'd deposited across three decades.
- codetrotter 2y agoInfuriating. That kind of thing is what makes me wish I could not have to ever deal with a bank ever again.
- otteromkram 2y agoWho said you have to deal with a bank? That's not written into law, is it? Try a credit union if you want to avoid banks.
- Djdjur7373bb 2y agoIs the experience that different? I've never tried one, but I assumed the level of bureaucracy must be similar in order to defend against fraud and fulfill regulatory requirements.
- ceejayoz 2y agoIt is absolutely different. I can walk into my credit union's offices - they have just two branches - and talk to someone with decision making power. An actual human being picks up the phone if I call. Their customer service has been impeccable despite some complex asks. I am unlikely to be able to do this if someone steals my crypto. (My security question when calling in was once "you sent an email last week that made my boss very happy, what was it about?")
- dguido 2y agoStrong recommend on using meow.com. You can get interest on your primary checking account, and easy access to high yield treasury management services. I’ve been following the Evolve Bank fallout on the FinTech Weekly newsletter, and the whole situation scares me about Mercury. I used to bank with them, but the sanctions by the Federal Reserve and the continued disclosures about lacking KYC and money laundering controls has me worried there are other problems.
- dogleash 2y agoStep 1. Think "this is probably fine" Step 2. Find out it's actually a fucking nightmare Step 3. Finally stop thinking everyone who worries about obstacles you assume don't happen are tinfoil hat weirdos. It's always step 3 that gets people.
- staticidentity 2y ago[flagged]
- otteromkram 2y ago[flagged]
- smeej 2y ago> If Chase is locking down your account, don't blame them. > Chase, like other banks, is in the business of taking and keeping people's money until they need it. This is doubly true for businesses. You say the first one immediately after the second as though keeping your money when you need it isn't exactly why we should blame them.
- stbenjam 2y agoYou might be surprised to know you don’t need residence or a visa to hold a bank account in the US Blaming OP is totally unhinged
- eduction 2y agoSurely you can understand how a bank would be more skeptical about an account holder who lives in a different country, is a citizen of another country, etc? Not saying he deserved it (Chase sounds pretty infuriating) but similarly saying something is legal is not the same as saying it should not be a fraud/crime flag.
- benzible 2y agoSee my comment above. My company did nothing wrong, nothing even remotely shady. We were a C corp with a typical mix of investors - angels, Sand Hill VCs and CVCs. We were subject to extensive due diligence by investors. I've never had an experience like I had with Chase.
- nitwit005 2y agoAt a certain point in this story, it felt like time to file the lawsuit. They basically stole the money and wouldn't give it back to the owner.
- MSFT_Edging 2y agoThat would probably be an expensive lawyer.
- camsinko 2y agoI went to Chase Bank to withdraw cash for a Facebook deal, and they refused because I didn’t have their app. The teller couldn’t verify my driver's license or passport, insisting the only way was through their app's 2FA. This is exactly why I stick with credit unions—where I can work with real humans who actually help.
- Arch485 2y agoI know someone who had an almost identical experience with CIBC in Canada: accounts (including payroll) completely frozen, nobody to contact, nobody who can help. Never found out the reason, either.
- fswd 2y agomy story with them: Chase bank refused to cash their own Chase cashiers check. Seems crazy but I had to get a lawyer involved.
- jxnlco 2y agothankfully i just DM'd the mercury team and got a temp approval to deposit the 180k
- AshamedCaptain 2y ago"Computer says no" is the one customer support response that makes me move my business elsewhere.
- aspenmayer 2y agoFor those unfamiliar with the reference: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_says_no https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_says_no https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x0YGZPycMEU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x0YGZPycMEU For niche, zany sketch comedy, Little Britain is a gem.
- WaitWaitWha 2y agoI have been burned by a bank (stagecoach in red field) very similarly. I now only do my financial transactions with smallish credit unions. Big enough that they can have the services I need, but small enough that my business is a large-ish part of the Unions' business. This works internationally, not just US or Europe. Most nations have some sort of a member-owned financial cooperatives, equivalent to credit unions.
- throwway120385 2y agoYeah their abysmal handling of my wife's stolen checks convinced me that we need to dump them as fast as possible. One of the agents basically said "I'm not even going to bother asking my manager to expedite the funds. Don't even bother. They're just going to say no." My wife insisted, and so the agent went away for 60 seconds and came back and said "Okay those funds are back in your account have a nice day." Every interaction with their agents from their fraud department to the regular CSRs went like that. Even getting them to freeze the account didn't happen with the first or second agent she talked to.
- ryandrake 2y agoWhy would you say "stagecoach in red field" instead of Wells Fargo? I don't get why people are so coy about calling out terrible companies by name publicly. They're not going to kick your door in and shoot your dog. Do you think Wells Fargo (the terrible shitty bank) is going to actually search through HN looking for instances where users said their company name "Wells Fargo" and linked that company name "Wells Fargo" to their reputation "terrible and shitty"? When they find your username, are they going to scour the web to find your real name? And then, when they do, what then? You probably no longer do business with them so there's nothing much they can do in retaliation.
- WaitWaitWha 2y agoI presume you are either in the US or Europe. I understand your point. Alas, not everyone is based in countries where civil liberties are not completely eroded. That said, even in the US civil cases with or without merit can destroy a business and individual.
- pickledish 2y agoAnother story about a startup and chase, from the person who founded hashicorp, it's a fun read: https://mitchellh.com/writing/my-startup-banking-story https://mitchellh.com/writing/my-startup-banking-story (edited since at first I remembered it being more negative about chase in particular -- but it's really just funny!)
- otteromkram 2y agoDid you read to the end? > I want to make it clear that Chase could've been an excellent banking partner. I never gave them the chance. I never told them what my business does or what I'd use the money for. I never talked to anyone (besides saying what I needed to get off the phone). This story isn't a cautionary tale about Chase, it is rather recounting my naivete as a young, first-time startup founder.
- ungreased0675 2y agoWhy would any of that be necessary? They’re a bank, not your parents.
- BizarroLand 2y agoExactly! Entrepreneurialism and nanny states are fundamentally incompatible. If Chase or any other bank has to know what you had for breakfast in order to hold your money for you, then you shouldn't bank with them as you'll never know when they randomly decide you took money from a bad man and then hold your financial life hostage from you.
- otteromkram 2y agoBecause banks deal in finance, which is an arena rife for fraudulent activities. For example, in the us, personal savings accounts with large transactions (deposits or withdrawals over $10,000) get flagged under the 1970 Bank Secrecy Act[0] as a way to curb money laundering and related events. You're correct; a bank isn't your parent. And, you can choose where to put your money for safekeeping. As can businesses. But, as mentioned before, finance draws in scammers and con artists (sometimes those aren't even the bankers!) and extra measures are taken to ensure that nefarious activities are mitigated. This includes actually knowing about a business and the ownership (or authorized representative) who want to bank with an institution since corporations can easily keep beneficiaries well hidden. Further, as businesses grow they may need more capital and other financial instruments (eg - stocks), all of which present a risk to the lender if the business isn't well understood, which could lead to unfavorable rates or declination for the business. The business can shop around, of course, but the result might just be the same and then what? I don't really know where I'm going with this comment, but I guess the point is that Chase, et al, have regulations to follow and some of them suck. I'm also not out to necessarily defend Chase, but as a checking account holder i haven't had anything but a great experience. And, there's no one I'd rather have on my side than the douchebags at Chase when I need to cancel or retract some financial transactions. Cheers! [0] https://www.fincen.gov/resources/statutes-and-regulations/bank-secrecy-act https://www.fincen.gov/resources/statutes-and-regulations/ba...
- apercu 2y agoI've never used JP Morgan or Chase, but I recently inherited some stock. There was no way to transfer the stock in-kind to another brokerage, for some reason it needed to go from a JP Morgan account to another JP Morgan account. (I didn't want to cash the stock out immediately because I couldn't get info on the basis and what the capital gains taxes would be). Anyway, sibling knew someone who worked at JP Morgan private bank and they were willing to do all the work so I said "sure". Turns out Chase and JP Morgan are integrated on the backend but not Private bank. So the transfer couldn't go through.All in all this was 15-20 emails and multiple phone calls. And then I was told to open a Chase individual investment account instead. Not wanting to continue to burn time during work hours when I was super busy with a project, I drove 20 minutes to a Chase branch to open an account with an investment banker to make sure all went smoothly (instead of doing it online). He couldn't open the account for me, couldn't get anyone on the phone, either. Turns out that the backend is connected enough with Private Bank that I had a profile in their system, but he couldn't "do" anything with it. A few more emails and phone calls and the Chase investment banker sent me a link to open an account online. So I do that and let the banker that controlled the original stock account know the account details. But he still couldn't transfer the stock. That private bank profile still causing problems I guess. I was given an 800 number to call private bank to get them to close the account. I spent about a half hour on hold before I hung up. I then contacted the banker I knew at Private Bank and informed him, he said he'd take care of it. Later that day he emailed me and said he had put in the order and I would get a confirmation. I did get the confirmation but was informed it would take a few days. Once that was done I contacted the broker that controlled the stock account. He tried again, no dice. He then decided to get licensed in my state so that he could create the account for me. That took another week or so. And, I was told to close the Chase account. I did that, again, a couple days. By this time I'm 20-25 hours in with phone calls, emails, conversations with my siblings, have driven into the city twice, and so on. Finally, after about an hour on the phone the next week, the broker creates my account and is able to execute the transfer. Of course, by this time the stock market had tanked and the stock had lost ~20% of its value, meaning I netted less than my siblings, and spent a ton of time. What. A. Circus.
- lisper 2y ago> I didn't want to cash the stock out immediately because I couldn't get info on the basis and what the capital gains taxes would be. You'd need to figure that out eventually anyway. Better sooner than later. But in any case, you could have sold the stock, transferred the money, and then re-purchased the stock and simply reported it as a wash sale. > by this time the stock market had tanked That can go either way. I've had stocks that I wanted to sell get held up, and go up in value in the meantime. So you have to just chalk that up to fate.
- josefritzishere 2y agoDiversify your banking. Every individual and business shoudl ahve at least two completely unrelated banks. I actualy reccomend one be a credit union. Ift gives you a fall back position to protect against this kind of situation.
- mattmaroon 2y agoI feel like these sort of corner cases likely can happen with any bank. The real question is: why did it take months of having their vital money withheld before trying to go around the bottom rung support that was clearly not going to help? By like week 2 I’d be talking to an attorney and I bet a letter from them would get it cleared up fast. (Perhaps I’m wrong though.)
- jxnlco 2y agoI was in Canada, and I was also quite stressed with some keynote presentations I had to give, planning my move back to the US, and applying for my O-1 visa. I figured I'd sort it all out by the time I moved. However, I may have been a little too relaxed about the situation and stressed out about other stuff
- mattmaroon 2y agoWell in any case, I’m sorry that happened to you. It sounds awful.
- akeck 2y agoObligatory reference to patio11's write up on banks: https://www.bitsaboutmoney.com/archive/seeing-like-a-bank/ https://www.bitsaboutmoney.com/archive/seeing-like-a-bank/
- kevdoran 2y ago> Mercury is a fintech company, not an FDIC-insured bank Funny enough, I recently opened a Chase business checking because of this "bank not bank" news: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40480159 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40480159 I still have a different business checking with a Mercury-like fintech provider. Chase freezes accounts, Fintech startups go under. Chase already froze my business credit card once. I had to send them a deed of a house that I had already sold. It made little sense. On the fintech bank side, my biggest client cannot make transfers to that account. Their payment system throws an error when they try to ACH to it. That plus the news about Synapse going under made me want a chase. So I don't really know what to do. I now have multiple business accounts, multiple personal accounts. I want to find like a good credit union maybe? What's clear is being in small business requires building tolerance for money uncertainty that wasn't as necessary when I was an employee. I feel for the author. That all sucks. I enjoyed the 'Yuppie Nightmare' reference. Many thanks for sharing.
- unyttigfjelltol 2y agoThere is a middle ground called "community banking".
- badlibrarian 2y agoMany community banks are little more than fronts for pcbb.com or fisglobal.com at this point.
- galaxyLogic 2y agoI got a letter from Citibank demanding I prove my business was legit. I sent them a "secure message"(on their online site) containing the documents. But(according to them) they could not open those secure documents. They called me and asked for the password for that secure message. That was of course a red flag so I went to the local branch and asked them to send those documents to whoever it was that was requesting them. Going to the local branch stopped them from sending any more demands for documents so it seems it really was Citibank who had sent those demands to me. But for them to ask for my password in a phone conversation is a huge Red Flag right? And they never sent me a confirmation that issue was resolved. I should have reported them for asking for my password, but did not know where should I submit such a report. Big banks are too big.
- neilv 2y agoI feel bad for the people who went through this Kafkaesque nightmare. > After months of back-and-forth, [...] I finally got my money. I didn't find any mention of a lawyer in the article. When you realize you're dealing with people who aren't operating in good faith, seriously consider consulting a lawyer. (A harder problem is realizing when people aren't operating in good faith. Especially if you're a Pollyanna, or decent folk dropped into the big city.) > consider using my referral link to open an account with Mercury I'm not going to click a kickback link on a piece like this, and I'm going to disregard the recommendation. If the goal is to warn people away from something, or to make a positive recommendation for something else, why add an obvious conflict of interest that didn't have to be there?
- stainablesteel 2y agoyeah this sounds like some kind of corporate fraud, i imagine they were blocking people out and moving their money around to cover their own books after something went wrong, there should be a payout
- serial_dev 2y agoIt assumes you know which one was first, the chicken or the egg. One option is that the author found/got a referral deal with an alternative provider, so thought they could write this article complaining about a competitor. Or... They were so pissed with Chase due to this nightmare they had to go through, they looked for alternatives, found something, so they mentioned it in the post. Disregarding is fine as you don't know if they are honest, at the same time I wouldn't attribute evil intentions either. It's like when a native iOS developer says the best apps are truly native. It could be that they tell you that so that you hire them and their niche stays strong... or they really believe it and that's why they are iOS developers.
- jxnlco 2y agoafter my money was withheld i messaged a mercury investor to see if i could get set up asap, they set me up so i could get paid and reroute all my payroll.
- shahzaibmushtaq 2y agoEveryone wants to open their first bank account in one of the big banks, I was one of those. Later I found out that not-so-famous big/small banks are far superior for SMBs. Revolut, Mercury, Meow and Payoneer (Personally using myself) are all leading online businesses.
- ianhawes 2y agoPayoneer should be not be on that list. They recently shut down our account with zero warning. Fortunately we did not funds with them, but the account was 6 years old and had processed a considerable amount of funds outgoing to contractors.
- shahzaibmushtaq 2y agoHave you tried contacting Payoneer to find out what actually happened? Sometimes, their built-in protection system flags unusual activity and takes action but that doesn't mean businesses using Payoneer should stop promoting Payoneer.
- tedmcory77 2y agoThe real question here for the author is: What are the three banks that you now use? We use high availability and redundancy for everything else, why not business?
- jxnlco 2y agoMercury, Meow Schwab chase (remaining personal account)
- galaxyLogic 2y agoConsider also that you probably could not sue your Bank if you wanted to. All the small print you agreed to. This was brought to my awareness due to the recent news about how somebody could not sue Disney because they had opened a Disney+ streaming account. We need financial reform customer protections. Let us hope the party that fights for big businesses and billionaires does not win in the next election.
- ianhawes 2y agoUgh, that lawsuit is the new McDonalds hot coffee. Front line lawyers at megacorps will respond with anything and their argument about arbitration because of Disney+ (they also claimed arbitration because the plaintiff did in fact also buy a park ticket on their website) was withdrawn shortly after the media shitstorm.
- galaxyLogic 2y agoThank God for the media
- dehrmann 2y agoThat doesn't mean the arbitrator would have agreed with the bank.
- galaxyLogic 2y agoRight, but there must be a reason why the Bank put that clause into the fine print. It must be beneficial to them, I assume, else they would not have included that clause right?
- pjdemers 2y agoI used to have a side gig as the CFO for a not-for-profit (an unpaid volunteer). Anyway, this organization was over 125 years old, associated with a larger organization 80 years older than that, and had the same primary bank for 70 years ... Anyway, my treasurer, who was very smart, insisted we keep enough cash to run for 3 months in a secondary bank. Just in case we were locked out of our primary bank.
- jxnlco 2y agothis this this
- Terr_ 2y agoNot quite the same scenario, but it makes me think of how a startup I know dodged a bullet with the Silicon Valley Bank collapse [0] partly due to having some other money elsewhere Just In Case. (But in a major part due to bailouts, of course.) [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collapse_of_Silicon_Valley_Bank https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collapse_of_Silicon_Valley_Ban...
- ikekkdcjkfke 2y agoIs it possible to use a european bank with eId totp physical chip with fallback to passport scan?
- msarrel 2y agoIn 2008 Capital One did the same thing to me. It almost destroyed not only my business but also the rest of my life. They were completely unwilling to work with me and they said that they suspected fraud. There was no fraud, I proved there was no fraud, they still kept my account locked for over 30 days. Yeah no one tells you when you start your business that your own bank is preying on you.
- rglover 2y agoThis is why Bitcoin is ideal. You can hold and transfer any amount, any time of day, without fear of surprises like this. Would I use it as a primary cash account for my business today? No, because of the obvious exchange rate/price swings. But long-term, moving toward Bitcoin as a settlement layer (i.e., a modern SWIFT) would solve a ton of problems and avoid situations like this. The more people that do that/normalize it, the more stable the price in other currencies, too. I get that people like to hate on it because it's not a perfect solution to everything, but in a hostile unpredictable environment, it's a life saver.
- staticidentity 2y ago[flagged]
- bootlooped 2y agoI don't see why having a different settlement layer would prevent the bank from freezing money that they have custody of.
- rglover 2y agoIt removes the bank from the equation. The point here being that you keep some of your funds in Bitcoin so that, in the event you have to deal with something like this, you can still find a means to get people paid. Long-term, if everyone does larger transactions in Bitcoin (e.g., payroll, invoice payments, etc), then problems like this never occur.
- bootlooped 2y agoThen we're not just talking about a settlement layer, right? We're talking about holding crypto instead of cash, and self custody.
- cultofmetatron 2y agosolana seems t be even better for that tech wise. but yea, bitcoin is incumbant here
- HeavenFox 2y agoI think this situation, while extremely unfortunate, is just the natural consequences of how banks are regulated in the US. The big banks face a constant threat by the government: if your customer does something illegal with your product, YOU will be fined millions of dollars. Therefore, if your activities have any resemblance of money laundering, they'd rather lose your business than lose millions. Different banks have different "sensitivity", and Chase, unfortunately, is one of the more sensitive ones. What are the solutions? Laws should be passed to protect customers' rights in the event of an account closure; banks should probably be provided some safe harbor so they aren't as skittish; and in the meantime, bank with a smaller credit union that have a smaller target on their back, and also if something breaks you can yell at someone who can actually fix it.
- LadyCailin 2y agoComplains about big banking. Hawks a referral code for a non-FDIC insured “bank”. Some people never learn, I guess?
- jxnlco 2y agomercury ceo dm'ed me to check in, honestly at least i can message the ceo
- bdcravens 2y agoChase stole about $900 from me from an account I setup just for freelance income. This was during the pandemic when I had to take a 2/3 haircut in my day job to keep the company afloat (we did, and all is well now). Every time I'd try to reach out to try to get answers, I'd get bounced around among different foreign call centers. After months of trying to resolve it I just gave up. (I could and should seek legal recourse, but I just didn't have the emotional energy for it at the time) I will never do business with them again, even though their many branches (literally have one across the street from my office) would make it convenient.
- 0x5f3759df-i 2y agoChase really has the worst phone customer service. I foolishly used one of their 0% interest promos to buy some hardware and when I was charged interest anyway due to their screwup in how my payment was applied he told me: > “since you have enough money in your account to pay this off I don’t know why you are using this plan at all. These are intended for low income customers” and did nothing to solve the problem.
- raincom 2y agoFile a complaint about Chase with CFPB, and you will get your money back. Never directly with Chase. https://fairshake.com/chase-bank/file-a-complaint/ https://fairshake.com/chase-bank/file-a-complaint/
- screye 2y agoKnew this had to be Jason. Poor guy has been put through the ringer. Running into a new update on twitter has me like, "How is this still going on?".
- jxnlco 2y agobrutal 'it'll be over once i visit' 'i'll be over when i send the paperwork' it'll be over when...
- cruppelt 2y agofun following this debacle on twitter
- PaulDavisThe1st 2y agoWhen I read these kinds of stories, and the comments on them, I feel it would vastly more useful for people to document positive interactions with financial services. Am I shilling for banks? I hope not. It just seems that at this point anyone who imagines the banks are going to work for you, the customer, has not been paying attention and/or is delusional. Finding out that SolarFlower Bank in Hometown, Your State has provided exceptional banking services is massively more useful than hearing, once again that BigBankCorp are terrible.
- eduction 2y agoBlog post dated a month from now? “2024/9/21”. Not exactly helping me believe your story.
- eduction 2y agoAlso why is there a post dated 2025? https://jxnl.co/writing/2025/06/15/my-self-reflection-on-success-and-growth/ https://jxnl.co/writing/2025/06/15/my-self-reflection-on-suc...
- eduction 2y agoI feel bad for you and not a fan of Chase’s behavior here but I would never open a business banking account in a country different from the one I’m living in unless I had an extremely good reason (like a statutory requirement). Particularly if I hadn’t fully secured permission to be in that country. Even then, if I was going to do it I would want to be sitting physically across from a bank officer to make it happen, not online. I opened business checking from BofA online years ago and it was a total nightmare even living a short walk from the branch, being a US citizen, etc. They did freeze it once or twice. Never again.
- 77pt77 2y agoAlways have your money split between multiple unrelated banks in different jusrisdictions. Always have multiple debit and credit cards between different institutions. If possible avoid the USA banking system, although thats easier said than done if you live there. These are good practices for both professional, company and personal finances.
- mharig 2y ago[dead]
- nottorp 2y agoStupid question from outside the anglosphere: what's the difference between a bank and a credit union?
- bluGill 2y agoCredit unions are owned by the people with money in them. A coop bank. There are a few other legal differences as well, but the ownership is the big difference.
- Brian-Puccio 2y agoCredit unions are nonprofit, member/cooperatively owned financial institutions. Banks are for profit (and likely publicly traded).
- cjs_ac 2y agoCredit unions are cooperatives owned by their customers.
- jachee 2y agoA credit union is ultimately owned by its members, and generally serves internal interests over pure profit. As a result, they tend to usually be less cutthroat and have lower fees, but also lower interest rates on the flip side.
- readyplayernull 2y agoThe main differences between banks and credit unions are that banks are for-profit institutions owned by shareholders, while credit unions are not-for-profit organizations owned by their member account holders. Credit unions typically have lower fees, higher interest rates on savings, and a focus on serving their members' financial needs, rather than maximizing profits like banks. Credit unions also have membership requirements, while banks are open to the general public. Lastly, banks are regulated by federal and state banking authorities, while credit unions are regulated by the National Credit Union Administration.
- ciupicri 2y ago
- spiffytech 2y agoMaybe it was SARs? > In the specific case of “Why did the bank close my account, seemingly for no reason? Why will no one tell me anything about this? Why will no one take responsibility?”, the answer is frequently that the bank is following the law. As we’ve discussed previously, banks will frequently make the “independent” “commercial decision” to “exit the relationship” with a particular customer after that customer has had multiple Suspicious Activity Reports filed. SARs can (and sometimes must!) be filed for innocuous reasons and do not necessarily imply any sort of wrongdoing. > SARs are secret, by regulation. See 12 CFR § 21.11(k)(1) from the Office of Comptroller of the Currency: > No national bank, and no director, officer, employee, or agent of a national bank, shall disclose a SAR or any information that would reveal the existence of a SAR. Any national bank, and any director, officer, employee, or agent of any national bank that is subpoenaed or otherwise requested to disclose a SAR, or any information that would reveal the existence of a SAR, shall decline to produce the SAR or such information, citing this section and 31 U.S.C. 5318(g)(2)(A)(i)... https://www.bitsaboutmoney.com/archive/seeing-like-a-bank/ https://www.bitsaboutmoney.com/archive/seeing-like-a-bank/
- e40 2y agoThis is what makes the most sense. SARs are terrifying.
- Algemarin 2y agoReading anecdotes like this is just so terrifying, and there appears to be absolutely no recourse. These stories can, and do, happen to anyone at any bank. And what can we do about it? It seems like the answer is a glib 'nothing'.
- mistercheph 2y agoThese days, its best to always travel with a retained team of attorneys, ready to intimidate and threaten litigation against anyone that tries to treat you like a kafka protagonist.
- Algemarin 2y agoI just feel like the bank has infinitely more resources than I could ever have in terms of hiring more attorney-power.
- imroot 2y agoI had a similar experience with US Bank. Business account, over $50k lost; they said that they can 'terminate their relationship with me at any time for any or no reason whatsoever,' and didn't have to return the money. The Fraud and Trust VP seemed shocked when I mentioned to her that it wasn't a big deal for me, and that I had my personal accounts with a credit union. It's been 4+ years. I've written the money off.
- ksenzee 2y agoFor $50k I would at least have a lawyer write them a nastygram. Wow.
- rvba 2y agoI went with someone from my family to close a bank account. The bank teller received an error message that said something like "please visit the bank personally". It was a message on her computer. Is that on the shitty bank rules, or shitty software? After 2 hours and the bank stuff calling some helpdesk they managed to do it.
- sarahwoodssarah 2y ago[dead]
- commercialnix 2y agoBy day 2 I'd have filed a lawsuit seeking over $5-million in combined actual and punitive damages. You have to speak the language they understand, anything else is a waste of time.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- RecycledEle 2y agoLet me explain this to those who are not familiar with the American system of kleptocracy: Banks freeze account to steal the money, not because they suspect wrongdoing. The protagonist in the article finally showed Chase it would be more expensive to keep the money than to give it back, so they gave it back.
- mrbluecoat 2y agoSadly, also happens with smaller banks that cater to startups. Happened to us with https://www.grasshopper.bank https://www.grasshopper.bank
- graycat 2y agoGrim story. Apparently banks can be tough to work with for obscure reasons. Own little case: While in NYS (US, New York State), did personal banking with, false name, XYZ Bank. Somehow I was assigned to a particular branch office of XYZ in NYS. Moved to TN (Tennessee). Eventually ran out of paper checks, so ordered a new supply. The account was "joint" with my wife; thus, her name was also printed on the checks. Since my wife had been dead for 20+ years, I guessed (first mistake) that it would be more appropriate to have her name removed from the new batch of checks I was ordering. Did get the new checks and used a few (mostly I don't pay with paper checks). Then got some communications from "my" branch office of XYZ bank in NYS that I should come to the branch office and sign my name to show that I am the real owner or whatever of the account. Apparently due to the new checks without my wife's name, someone at XYZ Bank was afraid that I was doing something nasty to my wife, to separate her from our joint money, etc. Soooo, they wanted me to drive from TN to NYS for WHAT THE F???? So, I called and got sent to "my" XYZ Bank branch office in NYS. On the phone to that office I explained: "My wife died 20+ years ago. You are welcome to drive to Indiana, to the little town of Warsaw, take the main road south out of town, drive about 15 miles, turn left, east, to the little village of Claypool. There you will find a school and a church. The church has a graveyard. There you will find the tombstone of my wife .... For my signature, you already have hundreds of copies of that. I will NOT drive to NYS. For more I will gladly talk to you. But I will not talk to lawyers. If you involve a lawyer, then I will immediately close out my account. If you want, I'll order a new batch of checks that again has my wife's name printed on the checks." That worked. Otherwise I like XYZ Bank a lot. But, since XYZ Bank has no branch office near me in Tennessee, really I should get an account with a bank with an office where I live. Actually, while in NYS, I did open a "business" account at a branch of Chase. It was a small branch, small office, no Greek columns, just a few nice women, trying to be a local bank, for businesses, yes, but also for consumers. Likely gave them the form I'd just gotten from NYS "Doing business as". Checking, Chase does have a small branch where I live. And I have a small balance in that account. Hmm. Sounds like anyone with a SMB (small, medium business) should have more bank accounts, not fewer!!! Sounds like, before my business starts getting revenue, I should get an account at a local bank where I can be known in person and use that as my main business bank. Also lesson: Banks are legalistic, have too many rules, have low common sense, like lawyers too much, can be simplistic close to brain-dead, tend to be paranoid, and can generate expensive legal problems. Go slow on crypto, more than the necessary one LLC (limited liability company), etc. Addendum: For this discussion about banking, we all should understand at least a little about financial institutions SMB -- Small Medium Business KYC -- Know Your Customer SAR -- Suspicious Activity Reports BSA -- Bank Secrecy Act
- xyst 2y agogood ole “anti-money laundering” (AML) system false positives. Generate too many of these and the risk departments can unilaterally close the accounts. If you ever needed a reason for a decentralized finance, this is among the top reasons.
- itbeho 2y agoI've had issues with both my personal and business accounts at Chase. Mostly due to the inept local branch manager. I've also had deposits flagged and delayed from clients that have been paying me for years with never an issue previously. I'd love to switch to a new bank. Any recommendations?
- rootsudo 2y agoMercury back isn’t a solution. They closed my account the first week it was opened. I didn’t need an extra bank account but I wanted to open 2-3 at the time and did so without any other issue at the different banks I chose. I’ve used chase and other big banks to nonissue outside Zelle crap. So I’ll wait to see the same thing with mercury. But my experience with them sucked and whenever someone Hails they were their savior I will post my experience. Mercury bank sucks, etc.