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Canadian government banning Flipper Zero to combat auto theft
- throwawaaarrgh 3y agoThis is like making lock pick sets illegal to carry unless you're a licensed locksmith. Didn't really stop criminals from getting or using them.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- happytiger 3y agoIt can’t be the policies or the lack of security of manufacturers. It must be this educational low encryption open source device that criminals are using. It’s a witch! Burn the witch!
- da768 3y agoA CBC article (edited since then) also mentioned the Raspberry Pi. Hopefully it's just bad journalism.
- user_7832 3y agoGreat, that's just what we need. Can we criminalize all x86-64 computers after this? Surely one can run an SDR on linux using such a nefarious device?
- superkuh 3y agoThe coming war on general purpose computation has arrived. https://boingboing.net/2012/01/10/lockdown.html https://boingboing.net/2012/01/10/lockdown.html
- croes 3y agoDid they ban USB cables too, because of KIA?
- pixl97 3y agoCanadian government once again proving it is stupid. These are the same groups that had moral panics and tried to ban video games and rock and roll without any actual information. Just root a phone and you have a far more powerful hacking platform.
- gadders 3y agoDon't forget the attacks by the fictional land of Diagolon.
- bhaney 3y agoEvery government is stupid, and eventually becomes this (and worse) if there aren't protections in place to prevent the government from unilaterally acting on its stupidity. Those protections tend to be eroded over time and need to be aggressively defended and reinforced.
- superkuh 3y agoPure ignorance and trend following. This is literally just a (very) custom build of the Mattel GirlTech IM-ME wireless instant messenger. I'd say, "Are they going to ban all devices with a TI CC1110?" but they just might try it.
- ur-whale 3y agoBlame flipper instead of blaming weak-ass security protocols, way to go Canada. Next, the root of all evils: screwdrivers, which, if you are smart enough, can be used to open things that are screwed shut! Think of the children!
- type_Ben_struct 3y agoThis is the equivalent of banning the import of balaclavas to stop robberies.
- dang 3y agoSee also (from threads we've merged hither): https://arstechnica.com/security/2024/02/canada-vows-to-ban-flipper-zero-device-in-crackdown-on-car-theft/ https://arstechnica.com/security/2024/02/canada-vows-to-ban-... https://www.bleepingcomputer.com/news/security/canada-to-ban-the-flipper-zero-to-stop-surge-in-car-thefts/ https://www.bleepingcomputer.com/news/security/canada-to-ban...
- Simulacra 3y agoNow I really have to buy one. Any time the government tries to ban something I feel like I should buy it.
- andy99 3y agoThis is typical. All this stuff about people knowing where their cars are and the police, CBSA etc not doing anything about it*, the complicity of all the port and shipping people, but the government pretends banning some electronics will change something. I don't know what people expected from a "summit" or whatever they did, there are lots of clear steps we could take, but instead we get this. *see https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto-man-finds-stolen-truck-in-uae-1.7083615 https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto-man-finds-stolen-truc...
- morkalork 3y agoWell you see, adding the name of a consumer device to a list of prohibited items is easy and costs nearly nothing. On the other hand, unfucking inter-jurisdiction cooperation and rooting out organized crime from the ports is hard. See also: - banning various types of (previously) legal firearms vs cracking down on illicit handguns being smuggled in over the border from the US - banning purchase of property by foreign owners vs addressing supply - banning single use plastics vs buying a goddamn oil pipeline for billions of dollars rather than cutting oil extraction subsidies etc. etc.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- transcriptase 3y agoEasier to ban the Flipper than admit to the public that ports in Quebec are run by the mafia which is what makes this entire issue with auto theft possible.
- prosaic-hacker 3y agoSo all those people with FZs I met at Bsides were car thieves. Just how many thefts are linked to its use. Criminals will be add FZs to their gun and drug shipments to Canada
- dcan 3y agoLike every other wide-spanning law the Canadian Government has passed lately (including the one on firearms and the soon-to-pass adult-content on the internet), I imagine they will ban swathes of legal products that use RF and do nothing to actually prevent crimes from occurring. Thanks to our Parliament!
- voisin 3y agoSort of like banning foreign buyers of homes to cover up the fact that they’ve given into NIMBYs for four decades and not built enough housing to keep pace with the population!
- nikanj 3y agoThat one was made to 1) Keep happy the voters who don't have housing, by making it look like they're doing something 2) Keep happy the voters who do have housing, by keep the housing costs sky-high
- bawolff 3y agoAre they passing a new law or just using the existing one from 1985?
- CuriousCosmic 3y agoSo if they ban the Flipper Zero are they going to ban the multitude of SDRs as well?
- kayodelycaon 3y agoThey don’t need to. Banning the easy method will stop the majority of cases. Most people won’t bother with a slightly less easy method requiring the most basic of technical skills or more research than the first Google result. Similar to how moving ssh to a non-standard port stops most attacks.
- andy99 3y agoCanadian car theft is organized criminals with connections across the supply chain shipping vehicles to Africa and the middle east. It's not kids joyriding. They will have no issue sourcing other methods of theft.
- 542458 3y agoYeah, that’s the thing that seems really silly about this to me - if your organization is competent enough to smuggle literally hundreds of cars out of the country, I’m sure you can smuggle a handful of small electronic devices in.
- pquki4 3y agoNot even smuggling -- I assume they can easily build a specialized car stealing device using standard components? None of this is difficult.
- farhanhubble 3y agoNext the govt. might ban shipping to these regions.
- laserbeam 3y agoFTA: "ISED will pursue all avenues to ban devices used to steal vehicles by copying the wireless signals for remote keyless entry, such as the Flipper Zero" Text uses the flipper zero as an example, not as the specific target of the ban.
- Zpalmtree 3y agoIsn't auto theft already illegal?
- andy99 3y agoYeah but catching organized criminals takes a lot of work. It's much easier to harass hobby hackers buying flipper zeros.
- myself248 3y agoIn other news, hammers can be used to break windows, coathangers to jimmy doors, and towtrucks to just lift the fuckers right up and drive off with 'em.
- Eddy_Viscosity2 3y agoA guy tracked his stolen truck to CP railyard. Police was sitting outside the railcar that had his truck inside. Police could do nothing because the railyard is outside their jurisdiction. Train left, he watched on the tracker as his truck was eventually shipped to Dubai. So.. I think CP rail is maybe a co-conspirator here? They have immunity from local law enforcement, and don't seem to require any title checks to move vehicles across border. https://www.cbc.ca/player/play/2306728515530 https://www.cbc.ca/player/play/2306728515530
- dcan 3y agoThere’s only three federal police agencies - the RCMP, CPKC Police Service, and the CN Police Service. The local law enforcement has to pass off the information to the relevant agency to abide by the separations of power. The problem here is probably the criminal lied about what was in the cargo container, and to process the tens of thousands of titles to ship new vehicles to manufacturers is obscene - and even then, criminals will still find ways to transport cars in shipping containers. At the end of the day, it’s up to the ports (which again are a federal agency) to scrutinize cargo containers destined for these locations - which they don’t have the staffing or funds to do.
- andy99 3y ago> At the end of the day, it’s up to the ports (which again are a federal agency) to scrutinize cargo containers destined for these locations - which they don’t have the staffing or funds to do. And now they'll be stretched further inspecting incoming shipments for flipper zeros.
- Eddy_Viscosity2 3y agoIn this case a local police officer was at the location where the stolen vehicle, and probably hundreds of others were. There was no CN police present. In cases where there are no CN police, then local police should automatically get jurisdiction. Otherwise, like in this case, criminals just get a free pass. > to process the tens of thousands of titles to ship new vehicles to manufacturers is obscene - and even then, criminals will still find ways to transport cars in shipping containers. What whining is this about? Are you suggesting that we just let the thefts continue at scale using rail because 'paper work hard'? Are you serious?
- neilv 3y agoThe Flipper Zero is a general-purpose tool and STEM educational device. By banning the device, a country would be setting back their workforce of engineers and scientists a bit. How can you use a Flipper Zero to steal a car? Flipper Zero can't crack hard encryption. Is the real problem that cars were made with security that they already knew was negligently weak at the time? If so, is a recall of those cars more appropriate?
- frfl 3y ago> By banning the device, a country would be setting back their workforce of engineers and scientists a bit. You're pulling a "Think of the children" here. Rest of your comment is fine, but this first statement doesn't hold water. Any incredibly small number of engineers and scientists would ever use this device. A Raspberry PI, Ardiuno, or other general purpose micro controllers and small form computing devices sure, I could believe that. But some niche device, no. Edit: I wasn't aware of the popularity of the device, as suggested by comment below, when I wrote this
- happytoexplain 3y agoIt's not a niche device - it's explosively popular and is obviously serving as a gateway for some young people into engineering and hacking. I couldn't possibly comment on the practical consequences to STEM of banning it. I wouldn't make that argument. But it's silly to claim that it's a "think of the children" argument and nothing more.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- eindiran 3y agoThe Flipper Zero is a small-form computing device that is immensely popular, not particularly niche. > Any(sic) incredibly small number of engineers and scientists would ever use this device. I personally know over a dozen people who own them and have tinkered with them in various ways. I managed to "break" my air conditioner unit (permanently setting it to C, not that bad of a "break") with one. Definitely less popular than a Pi or Arduino, but growing in popularity very fast.
- hubert022 3y agoBan crime!
- phendrenad2 3y agoHah. I knew this would happen. The Flipper is basically marketed as a hacking tool.
- 15457345234 3y agoIt's a shame, it looks like a fun tool to play with, but the marketing is so gross. I'm not exactly a saint but I'm not into harmful mischief and it's marketed purely at the 'hey we can break things now lmao' userbase, ugh
- exabrial 3y agoso instead of banning insecure cars, we ban the tools to break into them. ::slow clap:: The brilliance of the Canadian government on display here.
- photoGrant 3y agoBanning a Flipper Zero for Car Thefts is like banning a BB Gun for Firearm Deaths.... You're targeting the wrong device lol. edit: Further perspective: You need something that can perform a relay attack. You need someone with a powerful enough antenna to find the remote inside someone's home and relay it to a person near the car. This involves at least 2x CC1101's > As you can see, small embedded antennas are very inefficient, however convenient. In all cases here, the antenna radiated less than 1% of the available RF power. Using a full sized high efficiency antenna has the potential to increase TRP by at least 20 dB, which is 100 times more power or about a 10x increase in communications range. https://antennatestlab.com/antenna-education-tutorials/consumer_antenans/flipper-zero-antenna-patterns https://antennatestlab.com/antenna-education-tutorials/consu... This is the type of device still available, far more useful and powerful than a banned FZ: https://www.analog.com/en/resources/evaluation-hardware-and-software/evaluation-boards-kits/adalm-pluto.html https://www.analog.com/en/resources/evaluation-hardware-and-...
- 2OEH8eoCRo0 3y agoAll guns do is accelerate a lump of metal! Anyone could do this before by practicing their throw! Sometimes tech lowers the barrier to commit crimes and should be regulated.
- parkcedar 3y agoDon’t worry, Australia already did that.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- da768 3y agoOh no worries, Canadian gov is pretty good at copying Australian laws. Netflix tax, link tax, etc.
- web3-is-a-scam 3y agothis is just on brand for the Liberal government They banned a bunch of sport shooting and hunting guns because they look “scary” when criminals largely use handguns to commit crime. Licensed gun owners in Canada are statistically the least likely people out of all to commit crime of any kind (let alone gun crime), as they are background checked every day. Let alone the fact that criminals use illegal black market handguns smuggled from the US to commit the majority of gun crime and won’t have a firearms license.
- knodi 3y agowhen did the Canadian gov become so dumb.
- evandale 3y agoAround 2015
- mardifoufs 3y agoLol, more like around 2003.
- maximus-decimus 3y agoIs it them being dumb or them doing security theater because they think Canadians are dumb? Honest question, I can't tell.
- maerF0x0 3y agoSo after this law, the honest people cannot have Flipper Zeros, and the criminals will simply continue breaking the law and acquire one.
- nonethewiser 3y agoWelcome to the gun control debate.
- blindriver 3y agoExcept gun ownership is codified into the US Constitution. That’s why is impossible to get rid of, unfortunately.
- defrost 3y agoThat's hardly the issue, gun ownership is part of Australia also - the difference being that there it is regulated. The debate in the US is largely about what constitutes well-regulated and is a mess as States are not aligned.
- loopdoend 3y agoThere is no legal right to gun ownership in Australia.
- defrost 3y agoComplete utter nonsense - I'm an Australian gun owner, all legal. My neighbour here in the Australian wheatbelt enjoys ULR shooting at 5,000 yards. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7owwTz7Z0OE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7owwTz7Z0OE Perhaps you might like to do some actual fact checking before being utterly wrong in public? W.Aus Firearms Act 1973 (current): https://www.legislation.wa.gov.au/legislation/statutes.nsf/law_a278.html https://www.legislation.wa.gov.au/legislation/statutes.nsf/l... W.Aus Firearms Regulations 1974 (current): https://www.legislation.wa.gov.au/legislation/statutes.nsf/law_s4446.html https://www.legislation.wa.gov.au/legislation/statutes.nsf/l...
- thinkingkong 3y agoCanada has totally lost its way. Housing is a massive issue. Healthcare is under constant attack. Immigration is used to prop up a failing economy. We don’t really make anything. Wages are lower than the US just because. There’s no negotiating power. The dollar is weak. We can’t extract most of the available resources because of the weather and environmental concerns. The praries are being sold off to foreign investors. The smartest and most educated leave. Starting to feel like a fool for sticking around.
- thsksbd 3y agoIs you're from the GTA come to Pittsburgh. You're still close to family and friends and there's a tech scene (if you're into that)
- AnarchismIsCool 3y agoOTOH, if you're from GTA come to Philadelphia. It's basically GTA but weirder and with more bicycle related chaos.
- thsksbd 3y agoHaha. Unfortunately I think Philly is more dysfunctional than GTA. Perhaps the greatest of American cities.
- mhb 3y agoPretty cold too.
- dghughes 3y agoIf you think it's that bad I say (not in a snarky way) go but I'm not sure where. By your tone I suspect the EU is not your cup of tea. I think you're wrong I mean we have problems but so do all countries now healthcare is a worldwide issue. And just look south it's a mess politically and socially (sorry USA!). Even the EU is under strain among its members.
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- zx8080 3y agoWhy not banning radio signals? They are used for cars theft!
- happytoexplain 3y agoI was under the impression that cars and garage doors are essentially 100% immune to replay attacks. How could they possibly be susceptible to something to rudimentary? Or am I not understanding some context?
- imp0cat 3y agoIn theory, yes. In practice, you could start a Hyundai with an USB key, because the manufacturer did not bother to implement any security measures (it's cheaper that way).
- riwsky 3y agoNot 100%. Some are basically CSPRNGs that iterate with every successful unlock; if you capture the “play” from a key AND block the car from getting the signal, you get a replay attack you can only use once. And which desyncs the key with the car, making it useless until a dealer re-pairs them.
- happytoexplain 3y agoThis is my understanding - I guess I shouldn't have said "100%". It's just that it seems like there are vanishingly rare real-world scenarios in which one could engineer this situation that don't involve gaining access to the actual key, at which point you could simply take it, so the choice to use the Flipper instead would be moot for the topic of vulnerability.
- endigma 3y agoThis site is super vague, does anyone know what this means for existing owners?
- pluc 3y agoit means don't travel with it, and if you do get caught with it a zealous officer could say you were "carrying a prohibited device" or something like that.
- Nifty3929 3y agoThis just means that only criminals will use Flipper Zero. And they were already stealing cars. I don’t think they will mind one additional illegal activity. But how many previously law abiding citizens will be hurt by not having this technology, or becoming criminals now?
- MOARDONGZPLZ 3y agoHow does one use an FZ to steal a car? I think the point is that it’s impractical bordering on impossible.
- devmor 3y agoReplay attacks vs improperly implemented (or absent) rolling code for keyless start systems.
- pengaru 3y agoHow far we've come since 1999 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bOR38552MJA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bOR38552MJA
- web3-is-a-scam 3y agoEvery day this incompetent government gets more ridiculous than I ever thought imaginable.
- unethical_ban 3y agoWait, so I can use my Flipper as a backup key for my car (mid 2010s Mazda)? I thought the rolling code thing prevented this. If anyone has a doc on how to use the Flipper for a car, please send it! I promise it's for legit use. I bought it originally to dupe the NFC key fob for my apartment and the RF fob for the garage door.
- 486sx33 3y ago[flagged]
- whoswho 3y ago[flagged]
- barbazoo 3y agoIt not banned yet: might be worth to send comments to Jean-Sebastien.Comeau@iga-aig.gc.ca the email address on that page. > Office of the Honourable Dominic LeBlanc Minister of Public Safety, Democratic Institutions and Intergovernmental Affairs
- evandale 3y agoI tried emailing that address but got this back: mailer-daemon@googlemail.com An error occurred. Your message was not sent.
- barbazoo 3y agoGood job government *facepalm*
- somerandomqaguy 3y agoSnail mail tends to work better for reaching out to Members of Parliament just out of the blue, though still no guarantee since it's still an intern that's opening and reading it. Emails seem to work fine if they already know you.
- ireflect 3y agoThat's the press secretary. A better contact is Dominic LeBlanc, and your local MP. https://www.ourcommons.ca/Members/en/dominic-leblanc(1813) https://www.ourcommons.ca/Members/en/dominic-leblanc(1813)
- neom 3y agoIf anyone has a business impacted by this, I would absolutely love to talk to you. je@h4x.club - I'm quite sure I can help (not looking for $$, just think this is insane).
- OldSchool 3y agoAh, the irony... in the 90's you had to get your RF scanner FROM Canada or it would have analog cellular frequencies blocked!
- xvector 3y agoThis is what happens when you let your government run wild. You can't carry a pocketknife in the UK, you can't carry a Flipper in Canada. Insane. I genuinely hope the US does not become even more of a farce of a democracy like these two. Soon our own fingers will be banned "for our own safety."
- defrost 3y agoUK knife law allows you to carry non-locking pocket knives with a blade length up to 3 inches (7.62 cm) without any need for a valid reason. https://www.knivesandtools.com/en/ct/uk-knife-laws.htm https://www.knivesandtools.com/en/ct/uk-knife-laws.htm If you've got a job related need to carry a mofo knife (cane cutting with a machete) there's no drama. Yes, it's regulated - but it's not what you claim it to be. Next you'll be claiming there's no guns in Australia.
- xvector 3y agoThere is nothing wrong with locking knives. They are much safer to use for most tasks, including cutting thick cardboard, difficult food (cheeses), etc. I've brought >3in locking knives to picnics[1]. They are quite useful. The law against locking knives is probably responsible for a few Briton fingers being chopped off and has stopped precisely zero violent criminals. "Gravity knives" are banned too. Why? They are simply easier to open. As easy to open as flipper knives, which are legal. And you don't even have to open fixed blades - also legal. Butterfly knives are harmless. It is literally easier to kill someone with a legal knife than a butterfly knife, because with a butterfly knife you're forced into a ridiculous opening animation. But it looks spooky, so banned. Pathetic. You can't even own some of these items in your own house. Imagine not being able to buy a decorative shuriken or whatever. How many people have been killed to shurikens, again? But if you put one on your wall it's 4 years in prison. More importantly, what criminals will even care to follow this law? Do you really think a criminal interested in stabbing another person will go "geez, well, I guess the law says I can't use this 3.5 inch locking knife!" Fuck no, worst case they'll grab a kitchen knife and get stabbin'. Stop trying to justify this ridiculousness. The UK is a surveillance state clown show where things are banned for fun. More cameras per capita than China and you can't own a decent box cutter because some politician is trying to justify their worthless existence. [1]: https://www.victorinox.com/us/en/Products/Swiss-Army-Knives/Large-Pocket-Knives/Special-Picknicker-Damast-Limited-Edition-2022/p/0.8301.J22 https://www.victorinox.com/us/en/Products/Swiss-Army-Knives/... Imagine being sent to prison for 4 years and having your life literally ruined because you used this at a picnic. lol.
- deadliftdouche 3y agohttps://imgflip.com/i/8f7fjl https://imgflip.com/i/8f7fjl
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- user_7832 3y agoRelevant part: > Innovation, Science and Economic Development Canada (ISED) Innovation, Science and Economic Development Canada will work with Canadian companies, and the automotive industry, to develop new solutions to protect vehicles against theft and to assist with recovery of stolen vehicles. > ISED will pursue all avenues to ban devices used to steal vehicles by copying the wireless signals for remote keyless entry, such as the Flipper Zero, which would allow for the removal of those devices from the Canadian marketplace through collaboration with law enforcement agencies. The actual solution would be to force auto makers to have better security that can't be cracked by script kiddies. Banning a tool like the F0 is like banning hairpins or paperclips because they can be used to pick locks. Their primary "purpose" isn't that at all. What would be okay is to ban the use of an F0 to steal a car. Not ownership of an F0, or a screwdriver.
- 15457345234 3y ago> What would be okay is to ban the use of an F0 to steal a car. Ban carrying them. If it's truly an educational tool you don't need to carry it around with you. Same as (in the UK) carrying a set of lockpicks is grounds to be arrested for 'going equipped' unless you're a locksmith.
- user_7832 3y ago> Same as (in the UK) carrying a set of lockpicks is grounds to be arrested for 'going equipped' unless you're a locksmith. That's interesting, here in the Netherlands I believe you can carry them about and use them, but of course only with permission of the lock owner.
- wkat4242 3y agoIt makes no sense anyway. Burglars don't use lockpics. They don't care about doing damage and do care about speed so they just use a crowbar which even doubles as a weapon if someone's home. Banning lockpics is just security theater and does nothing to reduce burglaries. Bump keys are also much more effective by the way. And look like normal keys to the uninitiated.
- bhaney 3y agoNever cared much about the Flipper Zero personally, but now that governments are banning them I guess it's time to buy one. Great unintentional marketing campaign, Canada!
- finnjohnsen2 3y agoExactly this. It is unfortunately above my budget for items with certain near 100% shelf time, because this is a pretty exciting device to boast about owning. Especially after this news from the Canadians.
- Cthulhu_ 3y agoThat's how I feel; I'm confident that if I had one it would end up in a drawer alongside raspberry pi's and ESP32s and the like, but hearing it may be banned is a compelling argument to get one. That said, this is the most popular one, I'm sure there's clones out there already that fly under the radar.
- fransje26 3y agoStreisand effect at work!
- tucnak 3y agoThat will show them!!!
- j45 3y agoThe issue isn't devices like the Flipper Zero as much as the weak standards of security (and perceived obscurity) being used to not use actual security to secure cars. Auto manufacturers could .. create more secure devices for cars. Of course existing vehicles are a different problem. That was avoidable to some degree.
- amatecha 3y agoThis is so misguided. If I can in any way steal a car with a Flipper Zero (regardless of firmware), that car should be recalled and fixed by the manufacturer.
- nerfbatplz 3y agoIs it even possible to use a flipper zero to steal a car? I thought modern cars have rotating keys which would prevent a replay attack unless you had access to the fob long enough to figure out the seed in which case you may as well just use the key to open the car. They steal cars by either breaking a window or by getting to the CAN bus through the bumper and hijacking the car by programming a new key using the car's VIN. Ban Toyota and Honda from selling cars with shitty security if you want to do anything about this problem without having to ask the police to be useful.
- bawolff 3y agoWhat's the legal instrument they intend to use? Or are they planning to pass a new law? The way this is worded seems to suggest its already in the authority of ISED to ban these, if so, does anyone know what law would give them that right?
- bawolff 3y agoAfter some googling. (Ianal) ISED is responsible for the radiocommunication act. Section 6(1) seems to give pretty broad powers to regulate different radio devices. https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/r-2/page-2.html https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/r-2/page-2.html perhaps its broad enough to allow banning such devices.
- xtat 3y agoCanada got scary pretty fast
- devwastaken 3y agoThis signals to everyone that the device is effective. Even if it isn't, it will create a profitable black market. Governments never learn.
- AlexandrB 3y agoBan USB cables next: https://www.thedrive.com/news/how-thieves-are-stealing-hyundais-and-kias-with-just-a-usb-cable https://www.thedrive.com/news/how-thieves-are-stealing-hyund...
- blindriver 3y agoEver since leaving Canada I’ve come to realize how intellectually stupid Canadian politicians are. The U.S. has Rhodes scholars and Harvard graduates and Canada has kindergarten teachers and used car salespeople. The smartest Canadians know that it’s more lucrative to leave Canada and come to the U.S. so the brain drain leaves Canada at the behest of below average intelligence but highly ambitious and greedy politicians.
- moribvndvs 3y agoWe’re gonna cherry pick some bright ones and disregard the far more numerous, intellectually stupid US politicians?
- dghlsakjg 3y agoThe Deputy PM of Canada is a Harvard educated Rhodes scholar, wrote an international best-seller and was a correspondent for Financial Times, The Washington Post, and The Economist before joining Thomson Reuters as a managing director. Then she started her political career.
- neom 3y agoChrystia Freeland PM, Mark Carney Deputy PM is a dream team for me. My sister dated Justin for a couple of years at McGill, imo he's a genuinely good guy, but I can't say I'd consider him a good leader.
- cpymchn 3y agoThe Bank of England employees he terrorized would like a word. Carney has Julie-Payette issues in his past and probably won't leave his board seats to clean up Justin's mess, but never underestimate the ego I guess.
- neom 3y agoOh really? Ha! Well, I'm out of the loop on that. I still hold a glowing image of him from when he was working in Canada. I guess I should check what he's been up to... terrorized employees seems surprising, but also... not really.
- advael 3y agoSo if I'm reading this right, they're banning something that is too underpowered to run the exploits people are using to steal cars (which are only possible in the first place because car companies' threat model is mostly about their customers rather than thieves) in order to pretend to do something about car theft I've been pretty happy on balance with measures introduced through direct democracy in recent years (mostly happens at the municipal and state levels in the US), and it seems like most people are unhappy with measures introduced by the normal "democratic" means of governance in rich nations, where we elect people, who then make laws Maybe we should do more of the former and less of the latter
- kevingadd 3y agoThe main problem with direct democracy as performed in the US is that it's trivial to manipulate with sufficiently large ad campaigns, because the average voter is not super well informed on most topics and is usually not motivated to dig deeply when i.e. a ride-sharing company spends a cool hundred million to get the legal outcome they want. This is not to say that the alternative is immune to these problems, but as a former long time california resident direct democracy was directly responsible for many of the state's problems, i.e. prop 13. In many cases any special interest or sufficiently motivated rich person can also just keep putting their pet issue on the ballot over and over until it passes.
- hansvm 3y agoDo you mean to tell me that the general public weren't in favor of being screwed over by ride sharing companies, so much so that a 7/8 majority would be required to overturn their "democratic " decision? I'm not sure that HN is an appropriate forum for strong, unsupported opinions like that.
- bemusedthrow75 3y agoOr sarcasm, to be fair ;-)
- kevingadd 3y ago
- snvzz 3y agoConsidering that the Flipper Zero is just open source hardware that anyone can make at home using common off-the-shelf components, I do not see how this measure does help. If anything, it broadcasts to criminals that they can now steal cars with ease.
- data-ottawa 3y agoThis feels like a loud solution to assuage the outrage of the month. None of the articles on this are actually showing the numbers. https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/daily-quotidien/230727/cg-b004-eng.htm https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/daily-quotidien/230727/cg-b0... Car thefts have increased by a significant amount outside of their normal fluctuations, but they are still much much lower than they were before 2010. To call it a crisis is hyperbole. Canada's car thefts are the approximately the same rates as the US. Flipper zero is a casualty of poor security practices, and the insurance companies need to be going after the car manufacturers for making it so easy. I would even say if it's so easy to bypass, then buttonless start should never have even been legal. You can ban the flipper zero, but it does not seem that difficult to get them into the country nor does it seem difficult for criminals to make their own.
- soerxpso 3y agoI wouldn't trust that data at all without associated data on reporting rates over time. There's absolutely a crisis, and it's bad enough that people have stopped bothering to report thefts to the police since they know nothing will come of it.
- data-ottawa 3y agoHow are people dealing with the situation then? Without a police report your insurance won’t pay for a new car.
- gregmac 3y agoPeople have stopped reporting car theft?? Since a police report is required for an insurance claim, your statement implies people are just accepting their car is gone and eating the loss personally. Can you provide any citations?
- AnarchismIsCool 3y agoIn the grand scheme, these are remarkably unsophisticated devices. It's almost a meme in RF circles to excitedly buy one and then immediately realize it's just a Girl Tech IM-me with NFC. If you want to do real damage there are portable SDRs that can jam GPS and transmit just about any arbitrary radio signal from DC to 6GHz for less than $500. This is a mildly powerful toy that has a large, intelligent and curious community around it. The reality is RF stuff is wildly under-explored right now outside of military spaces. On the consumer side I'd guess we're somewhere around the early 2000s internet in terms of security posture. It's probably best to consider the flipper community to be a gift of minimally destructive pentesters relative to what they could be if someone wanted to actually dish out real electronic warfare.
- meiuqer 3y agoWhat is RF?
- AnarchismIsCool 3y agoRadio Frequency, contextually the people who like to do radio stuff, professionals, amateur radio operators, etc.
- Thaxll 3y agoThose devices are already banned in most countries. You can't import / use devices that have jamming capabilities.
- user_7832 3y agoWould a capable SDR not require specific software to jam? I believe SDRs are still commonly available internationally.
- varenc 3y agoYes I believe this is true. A capable general purpose SDR can do almost all the things that purpose built illegal device can do. What's protecting society is that figuring out how to do this on an expensive SDR is non-trivial. The illegal purpose built GPS-jamming devices just make it dead simple. My take is that what makes the Flipper so revolutionary/disruptive is that it puts all these previously difficult to pentest systems (NFC/RFID and sub-GHz radio mainly), behind a dead simple UI. One example is intercepting a particular NFC card's password to read its protected sectors. This requires reading the card's UID, then presenting that UID to a reader hooked knows that UID's password, recording the password it sends, then using that password on the NFC card. Prior to the Flipper this NFC password interception was possible but difficult. The Flipper make this sort of NFC MITM attack dead easy. It's literally just 4-5 clicks in the UI. I've cloned my own hotel key cards this way. (And it's impractical to secretly clone someone else's card this way since it requires tapping the Flipper on the same card twice)
- faeriechangling 3y agoIt’s already under import ban and I know somebody who got their order seized by customs. It’s a hacking tool and customs flips out about those even if an actual security professional is buying them.
- m3kw9 3y agoLooks like they want to show they are “doing something”
- dewlinedew2 3y agoI ordered a contraband baofeng handset from the US and it made it thru customs without inspection or seizure
- farhanhubble 3y agoSince when did thieves start caring about not using banned devices? Governments everywhere already pass the buck in dealing with car theft and break-ins to insurance companies.
- tamimio 3y ago> such as the Flipper Zero, which would allow for the removal of those devices from the Canadian Tell me how you have no idea about technology without telling me how.. Flipper is pretty much useless against cars keyless system, in fact, just look at any video of the how thieves do it, they never used flipper but far more sophisticated devices (except the kia switch USB trick). That ban is most likely because some boomer at ISED saw some tiktok and thought it should be banned or got mad after having their Tesla plug door opened remotely, meanwhile, you can import all types of sophisticated full-duplex SDR with all types of antennas that are far more powerful and dangerous than that toy. I worked with ISED before, overall nice folks but technicalities not much.
- __turbobrew__ 3y agoGreat job, now Im going to buy a flipper just like how I bought a handgun before new purchases were banned in Canada.
- randomdata 3y agoIn theory, a representative democracy keeps checks and balances by the people still routinely communicating with each other as if it were a direct democracy and if the representatives are not acting in accordance with the direct findings, then it's off with their heads. But in practice that's a lot of work. The reality is that most people don't want to be involved and are happy to have some figurehead do the work for them, even if that means complaining about it later.
- postpawl 3y agoIn reality, those with significant wealth and power end up shaping policy. This can lead to public disengagement, as many feel the system is not truly representing their interests.
- randomdata 3y ago> those with significant wealth [...] end up shaping policy. Yes, of course. Those with wealth hire people, often referred to as lobbyists, to put in the hard work. Technically, representative democracy requires everyone to be, or have, their own lobbyist, but in practice that's a lot of work that most people don't want to put in. They prefer to defer to a figurehead. It's easier that way. And, as such, give up power because of it.
- postpawl 3y agoThe challenge isn't that people don't want to engage; it's that the demands of daily life, such as working long hours to make ends meet, leave little room for the kind of sustained political involvement that wealthier individuals can afford. When we say that people delegate their power to figureheads, it might be more a reflection of an unequal system that doesn't effectively support widespread civic participation, rather than a choice made out of apathy.
- randomdata 3y agoOf course the system is not something that magically descended to the heavens, it is simply what people have agreed to go by. If it is unequal, it is so because the people have decided that they want it to be unequal. No doubt because, as you point out, the typical person would rather spend their time making ends meet (i.e. pay for the luxuries of life) than the worry about making agreements with their neighbours day-in, day-out. You can technically survive on very little time commitment to "make ends meet". Just look at the homeless population. It is not a life you would want to live, but it could be done if you truly saw the need to assert your power. But, understandably, most people would rather focus on their personal goals and let the figurehead worry about the community problems. What's the alternative? It's just people at the end of the day. There is no magic. Those who do the work are going to do the work the best way they know how. Even if they value your input and want nothing more than to work with you so that you can show your better way, they are not going to scour the globe to find you. If you don't put the effort in to make yourself known on a regular basis you will be forgotten about.
- biosboiii 3y agoThe key replay attacks only work on very very certain very very very old vehicles. Seriously the myth that key fobs are sooo insecure, they aren't.
- dramm 3y agoFlipper Zero can't unlock cars or anything else with even slightly OK security, but it sure can help detect idiot politicians.
- p0w3n3d 3y agoSounds like "Let's ban penetration testing to prevent hackers from hacking any system"
- zoobab 3y agoSoon they will ban Hackrf boards and open source code?
- bradley13 3y agoKeyfob security is difficult at best, and impossible at worst. In order to provide better security, you will make the keyfob near useless for the customer. But that's a problem for manufacturers to sort out, for example, by offering various options to their customers. That said, banning tools? Seriously? Will they now ban hammers, crowbars and hacksaws, because they can be used for breaking and entering?
- apapapa 3y agoJoke?
- sevagh 3y agoLike others here, ordered this (in Canada, before it's too late) because of the Streisand effect. Looks like a neat device.
- justinhj 3y agoLike banning handgun sales this lets the government get headlines that they are doing something to stop runaway crime without doing anything but piss off normal people.
- varenc 3y agoHas anyone else described how a Flipper Zero can be used to aid in car theft? My understanding is since the 1990s car have used rolling codes for keyless entry, making it improbable for a Flipper to replay captured signals to unlock vehicles¹. But surely Canada has at least a modicum of evidence that thieves are using Flippers? ¹ Caveat: Some cars will accept rolling code signals with a counter only 1-3 values off. So a Flipper recorded unlock message could be replayed successfully if the owner hasn't used their fob again. Plus, replaying codes can desynchronize the car's system from the fob, leading to non-functional keyfobs. You can find online reports where Flipper users did this to themselves: https://www.reddit.com/r/flipperzero/comments/yxgn60/flipperzero_bricked_my_car_keyfob/ https://www.reddit.com/r/flipperzero/comments/yxgn60/flipper... edit: A deeper dive makes me think a the Flipper could help with some attacks. On some cars recording multiple successive unlocks and replaying them in order will make the car resynchronize its counter to the messages on your Flipper and the next one will unlock the car. It seems this attack relies on the first signal being jammed, but you could do that with two Flippers. One next to the car jamming, and a 2nd closer to the keyfob recording. Lots of info here: https://i.blackhat.com/USA-22/Thursday/US-22-Csikor-RollBack-A-New-Time-Agnostic-Replay-Attack.pdf https://i.blackhat.com/USA-22/Thursday/US-22-Csikor-RollBack...
- imagineerschool 3y agoThis would be funny if it weren't real and truly shameful. Dark days in Canada.
- shdh 3y agoCanada has become a joke.
- KingOfCoders 3y ago"For example, to copy car keys. It is unacceptable that it is possible to buy tools that help car theft on major online shopping platforms." should be "For example, to copy car keys. It is unacceptable that it is allowed to build cars without proper security that help car theft."
- croes 3y agoSo ban USB cables next
- delfinom 3y agoThe other joke is, it has also known that car mfgs just let dealers have access to the key databases they hold for cars to make new ones rather than just cloning a physical key...and crooked dealership employees use it behind the scenes.
- 34679 3y agoNot to mention the fact that there are many mundane tools that could be used to copy car keys, from the archaic hammer/forge to the modern camera/CNC mill.
- ndsipa_pomu 3y agoIt appears that Flipper Zero is virtually useless in almost all car thefts and is just being unfairly targeted by Trudeau. Also, the company didn't even get a heads up about being falsely blamed: > Alex Kulagin, COO of Flipper Devices, said in an interview that his company received no communication from the Canadian government ahead of Thursday’s statements.
- atoav 3y agoIf your car key can be copied using a simple replay attack, it is not a key.
- ijhuygft776 3y agoYou can copy most old-style keys from a picture of them... that seems like the wireless equivalent...
- thebruce87m 3y agoAren’t pictures wireless?
- ijhuygft776 3y agotrue, I guess... but maybe you understand what I meant.
- thebruce87m 3y agoYes I did, didn’t mean to take away from it.
- noman-land 3y agoYou don't shout your physical keys into the sky every time you unlock your door for anyone in a 100m radius to hear.
- ijhuygft776 3y ago> You don't shout your physical keys into the sky Sure you do... all you need is a very high resolution camera in the vicinity....
- noman-land 3y agoYou're describing whispering, not shouting.