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What This Country Needs is an 18¢ Piece (2002) [pdf]
- eschneider 3y agoThis is an awesome example of solving the wrong problem. :>
- account-5 3y agoThe UK needs a 99p coin.
- lisper 3y agoIt has one. It's called a 1 pound coin, but wait a few days and it will be worth 99p.
- Freak_NL 3y agoDo stores in the UK actually hand back a single penny for a £0.99 purchase? If I buy something for €0.99 in the Netherlands, I won't get my cent back if I hand over a €1 coin. The 1 and 2 cent coins still exist, but shops all but banned them and round to the nearest multiple of 5 cents.
- lisper 3y agoI have no idea. My comment was intended to be nothing more than a joke.
- forgotusername6 3y agoSorry what? Are you saying that every shop will short change you in the Netherlands? There would be uproar here in the UK. That one penny will be handed to you 100% of the time in the UK. Surely if such a policy was in force they should be forced to round down and so return you 5 cents.
- Freak_NL 3y agoShort or long change you, depending on the amount, so in the long run it evens out assuming you buy multiple items at a time with a certain variance in cost. €2.97 will net you 2 whole cents if you pay €3 in cash and get a five cent coin back. It's legal: https://www.rijksoverheid.nl/onderwerpen/geldzaken/vraag-en-antwoord/mogen-winkeliers-betalingen-afronden-op-0-eurocent-of-5-eurocent https://www.rijksoverheid.nl/onderwerpen/geldzaken/vraag-en-...
- jeroenhd 3y agoThere's a lot of rounding in stores. I don't think anyone cares for 1 cent coins (most stores don't accept them anyway). With digital payments taking care of transferring the exact amount with no additional surcharges for at least 20 years, I don't think it's a pressing issue. If I cared for my 1 cent, I'd pay through NFC or by card. Stores are allowed to round to round to 0 or 5 cent if they indicate they do. This can also work in your favour; €1,07 will be rounded down to €1,05 if the store rounds to fives, and you should be given your 5 cent coin if you pay with €1,10. I've never checked if stores actually do that, though; I think it's been a decade since I last paid with cash at the grocery store, so all I can tell you is the law and explanation the government provides: https://www.rijksoverheid.nl/onderwerpen/geldzaken/vraag-en-antwoord/mogen-winkeliers-betalingen-afronden-op-0-eurocent-of-5-eurocent https://www.rijksoverheid.nl/onderwerpen/geldzaken/vraag-en-...
- Symbiote 3y agoSee https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cash_rounding https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cash_rounding It's been discussed by policitians in Britain, but as far as I know there are no plans to introduce it.
- gsej 3y agoYes they do, and people would ask for their change if they didn't. I don't know why.
- becquerel 3y agoThey will, at least in my experience, but from the glares you get you'll wish you'd told them to keep it.
- paleface 3y agoThat would be false advertising, in the UK. Rather - you should be asking the question, why don’t the shops in the Netherlands, just mark up the price, to €1 instead?! Seems incredibly stupid, to me.
- Freak_NL 3y agoShops worldwide do this; whether it is $1.99, €1,99, £1.99 or ¥499. It's a psychological trick. The exceptions (like the Dutch HEMA for which whole unit prices are part of its heritage) use it as a distinguishing feature, but most shops don't dare to.
- nerdbert 3y agoBecause if you buy five of that item, you pay €4.95. Few people go into a store and buy one €0.99 item. And if you pay with your debit card then it's still €0.99.
- jws 3y agoDo people in the UK use cash? I was in London for a week before I finally needed to get some cash to pay for a contractor for illegal services (a forbidden historical tour), later I needed coins to do laundry and the convenience store didn't have enough for a load of wash and a dry, he changed enough for a wash and the pub across the street had enough for a dry.
- wackget 3y agoThe font hurts my eyes.
- solardev 3y agoSerifs were still kinda cool in 2002, I guess
- segfaultbuserr 3y agoIt's a font resolution problem, serif fonts from a PDF generated by a modern LaTeX compiler like XeLaTeX are still more readable. If you zoom in, you'll see the fonts are bitmaps so it's low resolution with no anti-aliasing. Apparently, the original METAFONT Computer Modern is rasterized after rendering, meanwhile today most people have switched to its Type-I equivalent, which remains vectorized in PDFs.
- bombcar 3y agoIt’s computermodern (default LaTeX and not adjusted for perfectly thin displays). https://tex.stackexchange.com/questions/48369/are-the-original-cm-fonts-better-than-the-current-type1-fonts https://tex.stackexchange.com/questions/48369/are-the-origin...
- aquova 3y agoEvery Latex editor I've used uses (I think) that font by default
- moritzwarhier 3y agoIt's a paper intended for printing, maybe not that suitable for scaling. I like this font.
- dheera 3y agoIt's largely used as a status symbol to show that you know how to code in LaTeX. That said, something is wrong with this PDF, it looks like it has been rasterized somewhere in the process, which is not normal. LaTeX usually outputs nice clean curves on the text.
- 3y ago
- LegitShady 3y agoWhen you write this country meaning "the united states" but you're in canada.
- uw_rob 3y agoIt's a reference to the quote "What this country needs is a really good five-cent cigar" by Thomas Marshall
- maweaver 3y agoOne issue they mention is that you lose the simple greedy algorithm for making change. For example, for $0.38 it's better to give 2x$0.18 plus 2 pennies (4 coins), but many might intuitively give back a quarter, a dime, and 3 pennies (5 coins). Besides the added complexity, introducing a new coin solely to reduce the amount of change given is not effective if it is not used optimally.
- popularrecluse 3y ago2x$0.10 + 1x$0.18 is the preferred change.
- stevage 3y agoNot in the system where the 10c is replaced by the 18c.
- saulpw 3y agoAnd what algorithm did you use to find that? As per the comment you replied to, the greedy algorithm no longer works, and you have to exhaustively search through all possibilities of coins.
- couchand 3y agoNot the OP, but they appear to use the classic change-making algorithm "Dimes are Best". It works like this: give dimes for change, they're the best coin (highest value density).
- waveBidder 3y ago0.38 should actually just be 0.40, possibly 0.35 if the seller's generous. in physical transactions nobody pays 3.1415926 dollars for anything, even if the pricing algorithm says that's what you should charge. you just round to the nearest available coinage.
- anticorporate 3y agoSilliness aside, I love that someone is trying to come up with something innovative with cash. I carry and use cash whenever I can. It might only have a few more years of value as more and more places adopt pervasive surveillance and facial recognition technology, but I'm going to hold out for anonymous purchases as long as I can. The only entity that should be able to know my complete purchase history is me.
- cfraenkel 3y agoPennys - cheapest tiling material you can buy.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- elliotec 3y agoHaving recently done a remodel this sounds weirdly but extremely true. What would be the downsides? What would you grout with? How durable are they with water and constant friction?
- jrmg 3y agoAre you fishing for this classic reddit thread? https://www.reddit.com/r/pics/comments/1c1g96/comment/c9c6lli/ https://www.reddit.com/r/pics/comments/1c1g96/comment/c9c6ll... If you’re actually new to it - it’s a fun read! The full threads: https://www.reddit.com/r/pics/comments/17x0d5/friends_of_mine_flooring_with_pennies/ https://www.reddit.com/r/pics/comments/17x0d5/friends_of_min... https://www.reddit.com/r/pics/comments/1c1g96/60_some_thousand_pennies_later_they_are_almost/ https://www.reddit.com/r/pics/comments/1c1g96/60_some_thousa...
- Levitating 3y agoThat was a great read, thank you
- nick222226 3y ago
- appleskeptic 3y agoWhat the US needs is to abolish all coins except the quarter. Due to inflation, a penny in 1913 is worth about 30 cents now. And somehow they made do with no smaller coins than the penny (the half cent having been discontinued in 1857). Why are we shuffling these worthless bits of metal around? I’m sure it’s to enrich some medium size companies in a few important Congressional districts.
- gkoberger 3y agoMaybe it's corruption, but my guess is it's just never been important enough to push through. Imagine all the work that would go into phasing out coins, both politically and logistically... all for what?
- appleskeptic 3y agoI imagine it would cost less than all the money collectively spent on minting them and buying and maintaining machinery to handle them. Even better if they got rid of the quarter too. But yeah, I can see why no politician has decided to make this their signature issue.
- galangalalgol 3y agoDollar coins got phased in and out a couple times with no seeming issues.
- ghaff 3y agoWell, I think the issue has been people don't mostly like them or use them. I don't know why the US is uniquely(?) in this stasis around the denomination of money in circulation. Of course, at this point, it's pretty academic. Pennies should have been gone decades ago. And it's still hit or miss to use anything above a $20 especially in a smaller store.
- JumpCrisscross 3y ago> people don't mostly like them or use them This is also true of pennies.
- beefman 3y ago(2002)
- nullhole 3y agoSaw the title and immediately though of the Army Man joke (from the first page of the first issue!): "What this country needs is a good 5¢ sports car."
- alex-mohr 3y agoMaybe interesting aside: I saw a link to this when it was first published at the height of the p2p networks craze and noticed some similarities between the two. One of my students at the time, Mahadev Konar, ended up writing a paper "Ring-like DHTs and the Postage Stamp Problem" [1] that shows how you can use solutions to the postage stamp problem (aka denomination-choosing problem) as a way to structure the finger pointers in Chord. And went on to co-found Hortonworks. Sometimes random things on HN end up having implications in other areas! [1]: https://alexmohr.com/papers/dht-postage-stamp-podc2005-extended.pdf https://alexmohr.com/papers/dht-postage-stamp-podc2005-exten...
- aurizon 3y agoDigitally encoded coins - 1 cent to $10 with everyone having small readers/value assigners linked to account or other portable value store. Made hard to fake, your store = size of a credit card - flat near field access.
- Johnny555 3y agoI was going to suggest that adding a 12 or 24 cent piece would be an easier sell since people are already used to dealing with 12's due to clocks. But in my observation, the younger generations are less adept at that -- if I tell my nephew it's "quarter 'till 3", he says "I don't know what that means", then I explain it and he has to really think about it and do the math in his head to figure out what time it is. Which makes sense since I grew up reading analog clock, and he most often uses his phone or iWatch with a digital time display most of the the time -- the habit of breaking time into quarters is not as intuitive.
- ghaff 3y agoI grew up with analog clocks. How I would answer would probably depend on where I got the answer from. If it came from an analog clock I'd probably say quarter to. If from a digital clock I'd probably give a rounded answer like 2:45.
- oceanplexian 3y agoI always thought it was a weird colloquialism. Saying quarter to three takes exactly the same number of syllables as two forty-five, and the latter is more clear when communicating. You’re also using the word “to” which could be confused with “two” if the communication is garbled over the radio or a bad connection.
- sp332 3y agoI don't really feel every minute passing. If I want to know what time of day it is, putting it in terms of hours is more useful. If you're setting a timer or something where the minutes matter, then you can say 2:45.
- fnorder 3y agoIf you have a wristwatch with hands you may not want to identify the exact minute (this can be a little difficult if it has a smaller face), but if it's 5 minutes either way then a "quarter-to" is close enough.
- 3y ago
- techie128 3y agoInteresting read indeed! We need more innovation in this space. I am in the camp of cash users for several reasons. Increasingly, electronic forms of currency and credit are used as a means to exert control over vast majority of the population. The data can be misused by government and private entities to profile and target certain minorities. Crypto was supposed to solve this but that hasn't really panned out as governments do not want competition to their fiat currency.
- cbhl 3y agoWorth noting this piece was written in 2002. Ten years later in 2012, Canada finally took the penny ($0.01 coin) out of circulation. Cash transactions were to be rounded to the nearest nickel, whereas cashless transactions were still computed in pennies. (As far as I can tell, the main reason the US hasn't done the same is due to the prevalance of souvenir penny press machines.)
- seized 3y agoCanada still has plenty of those machines, they just have copper or brass blanks in them.
- euroderf 3y agoIf the US rounds everything to nickels, then the current system of 1-5-10-25-100, which needs an 18-cent piece, becomes (after division by 5) a new system of 1-2-5-20, which needs... what new denomination ? Maybe none ?
- wiml 3y agoA $2.50 coin would fill the gap well.
- galangalalgol 3y agoWe could just bump everything to 3,7,11 and ... 29 maybe? And keep 100 cents to the dollar.
- eapressoandcats 3y agoI suspect it’s even dumber than that and no one wants to remove a coin from circulation with Lincoln on it.
- gojomo 3y agoIt's actually less dumb but more corrupt: it's the lobbying funded by the company that sells zinc coin blanks to the US Treasury: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Americans_for_Common_Cents https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Americans_for_Common_Cents
- JumpCrisscross 3y ago> we assume that every amount of hange b etween 0¢ and 99¢ is equally likely As the paper admits, this is a bad assumption. Curious to see the number given actual price data.
- TriangleEdge 3y agoThis may be controversial, but I liked coins back in the day. It feels more "human" to me. Inflation targets will ensure coins are worthless soon enough tho. I'm a fan that governments can't impose these targets on crypto.
- jacob019 3y agoDollar coins make sense, moreso as time marches on. They sure have tried, but until they stop printing paper dollars no one will use them.
- SpaghettiCthulu 3y agoWe have $1 and $2 coins in Canada. I can't imagine dealing with $1 bills.
- jwagenet 3y agoI’d probably rather the opposite, dollar bills and no coins. There are very few things I can spend less than $1 on and coins are much more annoying to carry.
- ghaff 3y agoI can stuff some bills in the mini-wallet I carry. Coins mean they're either rattling around in my pocket or I need to carry some sort of coin purse. And, when I travel, I end up with this bag of unfamiliar coins that I'm trying to figure out at the counter. (Though I use cash when traveling at fewer and fewer places these days.)
- bentley 3y agoI typically keep $2 bills as the smallest denomination in my wallet, with a couple of half‐dollar and dollar coins.
- waveBidder 3y agojust introduce new coins. if we were keeping up, the modern equivalent of a 1913 quarter would be an ~8 dollar piece.
- fallingfrog 3y agoThat’s making it too easy. I say we do 3, 17, 23 and 77 cent pieces
- euroderf 3y agoWhat's the chance that average Americans can do the math in their heads ?
- metabagel 3y agoThe reason the penny isn’t eliminated in the U.S. is inertia and conservatism. Same reason(s) we haven’t finished switching to the metric system.
- ghaff 3y ago>Same reason(s) we haven’t finished switching to the metric system. You're not totally wrong but like the UK we (US) tend to use the metric system where it actually matters and use our variant of Imperial for everyday things which makes perfect sense for anyone who grew up with it. Aside from not having a well-developed intuitive sense for what Celsius means from a comfort perspective when traveling, I can pretty much use whatever local units are in use. (My only real limitation at home is that, aside from my scale, I have very little metric measuring gear so I have to convert.)
- couchand 3y agoObligatory xkcd: https://xkcd.com/526/ https://xkcd.com/526/
- ghaff 3y agoI have some more complicated conversions in my head but, for a lot of purposes, a liter is about a quart, a kilometer is about half a mile, and a kilogram is about two pounds. Those suffice for a lot of rough conversions I encounter when traveling. I suppose I could sit down and just memorize some F to C conversions.
- dwcnnnghm 3y agoMiles and kilometers can be estimated by the Fibonacci Sequence. The conversion (mi -> km) is very nearly the golden ratio (1.61 and approximately 1.62, respectively, IIRC). For any number in the sequence taken as miles, the subsequent number is the distance in kilometers. Your way is probably quicker, but it’s a fun bit of information.
- burke 3y ago
- jeroenhd 3y agoThis analysis assumes a uniform distribution of the amounts paid. With stores tending to charge $?.99 for their products and many people buying only a handful of products in small transactions, I suspect the distribution isn't all that balanced. With the power of the modern internet, we could pool together receipts all across the world and design a change system fit for real world usage.
- rafram 3y agoYou’re forgetting grocery stores, which tend to price merchandise according to bulk prices, which aren’t often pretty, plus a store markup. Items priced by weight are even less likely to come out to a $*.99-style price.
- jeroenhd 3y agoMaybe. I have years of payment history with several grocery stores stored in my bank's transaction history, could be a fun little project to figure out what my optimal coin system would look like!
- extraduder_ire 3y agoThe paper mentions how it's preferred to say "1 cent" rather than "penny" about US coinage, which reminds me of how shocked I was when I first encountered a bunch of US currency. Depending on the year it was made, most of the coins don't say how much they're worth on them. e.g. cent, nickle, dime, quarter rather than however many cents it is.
- sokoloff 3y agoFrom the looks suspecting me of wizardry if I give $20.12 on a bill of $17.87, I can’t imagine an 18¢ piece working out particularly well in practice.
- Ensorceled 3y agoBefore COVID forced the near ubiquitous use of debit/credit cards, there would be several times a month where I would confirm to the person ahead of me in line that the teller was correct on the amount of the bill/change or, less often, that the teller was wrong.
- gojomo 3y agoYou, sir or madam or mir, are an everyday hero. (nb: s/mouth/per month/)
- yetanotherloser 3y agoDon't be bigoted against many-mouthed Shoggoths. Be pseudopod-positive.
- Ensorceled 3y agoI also have a habit of just paying the bill when elderly people start counting out pennies and nickles for a $5 purchase. Thanks for the correction :-P
- em-bee 3y agoyou have to do it occasionally to avoid the change accumulating. got rid of a pile of change myself just today.
- Ensorceled 3y agoIf you didn’t spend 5 minutes squinting into your little change purse while becoming increasingly embarrassed… you’re not who I’m talking about. Also, roll your coins and take them to a bank or, better yet, donate them; don’t make tellers count all your trash coins.
- dang 3y agoRelated. Ohers? What This Country Needs Is an 18¢ Piece [pdf] - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14579635 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14579635 - June 2017 (45 comments) What the U.S. needs is an 18-cent coin - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3985299 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3985299 - May 2012 (28 comments)
- eesmith 3y agoWhat the U.S. needs is an 18-cent coin - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3985299 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3985299 - May 17, 2012 (28 comments) linking to a blog post at http://radio-weblogs.com/0105910/2003/05/16.html http://radio-weblogs.com/0105910/2003/05/16.html linking to a Science News article now at https://www.sciencenews.org/article/coins-making-change-efficiently https://www.sciencenews.org/article/coins-making-change-effi... discussing the publication at https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/BF02984830 https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/BF02984830 which we are now linked to on the author's web site.
- dang 3y agoGreat catch. Added to list above. Thanks!
- gojomo 3y agoGreat 2002 logic - but that's practically the archaic 20th century. People, it's 2023! There should be a wildcard coin with an NFC chip & e-paper display. Vendors & consumers should be able to load/drain it of any sub-$1 (or local smallest bill) amount needed - via proven-untraceable methods, like zk-proof-based e-cash. So let's call it an 'Aenny', pronounced 'enny', as portmanteau from 'any [amount]' and 'penny'. Anyone carrying physical cash would also typically carry a single Aenny - maybe as part of a physical wallet or bill-clip or even jewelry. Any 'change' made to them would simply adjust their Aenny balance as needed to keep physical transfers nice round full-bill amounts. But mass-produced, they'd be so cheap you could have 'take an Aenny, leave an Aenny' plates with free blanks at every register. All legacy fiat coins can then become collectors' items – or exchangeable, by law, to banks for one Aenny per cent. (Your quarter gets you 25 Aennies.) Progressive jurisdictions that become comfortable with the system could potentially increase the maximum value held on an Aenny – which is always a cash-like anonymous bearer instrument, with all the benefits & risks that implies – to be far more than the smallest cash bill size. Eventually, most routine daily purchases could be completed by direct Aenny-to-Aenny rebalances – occasionally handing over the unit itself, as if were physical cash, as necessary.
- jtriangle 3y agoOk well you've got my vote.
- D13Fd 3y agoBlockchain and crypto have made any discussion of digital currency sound toxic. I almost downvoted reflexively. But to the extent it can be implemented without blockchain it sounds like a good idea.
- FpUser 3y agoMakes much sense
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- Dove 3y agoTechnology, as modern sorcery, is neither inherently good nor evil, but is infused with its maker's spirit and intent. What a refreshing spirit is displayed in this idea!
- stevage 3y agoI find it astonishing that the optimal 4 coin distribution shares 3 coins with the actual current 4 coin distribution.
- quink 3y agoThe first coin’s denomination is 1, so it’d be a given that it would be shared. Two out of four isn’t much less impressive though.
- rootusrootus 3y agoI wouldn’t mind if we just eliminated nickels and pennies altogether. And maybe everything but quarters.
- tempestn 3y agoBetter to keep 5c and 25c rather than 10c and 25c imo, if you're keeping two. 10 is fairly redundant when you have 5 and 25. (Even more so with 5 and 20, as with bills.)
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- quickthrower2 3y agoMaybe the Brits had it right? 2 farthings = 1 halfpenny 2 halfpence = 1 penny (1d) 3 pence = 1 thruppence (3d) 6 pence = 1 sixpence (a 'tanner') (6d) 12 pence = 1 shilling (a bob) (1s) 2 shillings = 1 florin ( a 'two bob bit') (2s) 2 farthings = 1 halfpenny 2 halfpence = 1 penny (1d) 3 pence = 1 thruppence (3d) 6 pence = 1 sixpence (a 'tanner') (6d) 12 pence = 1 shilling (a bob) (1s) 2 shillings = 1 florin ( a 'two bob bit') (2s) 2 shillings and 6 pence = 1 half crown (2s 6d) 5 shillings = 1 Crown (5s) 2 shillings and 6 pence = 1 half crown (2s 6d) 5 shillings = 1 Crown (5s)
- mcny 3y agoIt may make sense but I cannot support this lunacy in the United States no matter how much formal proof you throw at me until we outlaw all standardized testing in education. This will just give ETS / the college board / whoever fodder to ask even more stupid multiple choice questions. (No, I am not mathematically inclined and have won no Fields medals or even ever competed in one. I am just an ordinary person so this is just a personal opinion.)
- dave4420 3y agoYou jest, but given America’s preference for traditional units of measure, I’m amazed they adopted a decimal currency to begin with. Pretty sure they’d still be on the Julian calendar if Britain hadn’t switched over before American independence, too. Think about the bullet we dodged there, programmers who hate time zones.
- midasuni 3y agoThe dominance of America at least means time zones are well supported. Had a country like U.K, China or India - all country with a single time zone - dominated the early computing development time zones could very much be an afterthought.
- quickthrower2 3y agoHad computers proceeded trains through you would be OK since UK had a time zone per town. Train timetables encouraged the single timezone.
- novemp 3y ago[dead]
- bloomingeek 3y agoUsing physical money is starting to shift in some areas of my state. At several marching band competitions this past year, venders wouldn't accept cash at all. This is the first time I ran into this and was a little surprised. Then, we went to a high school football game in a local, smaller town and it was cash only! I'm guessing cash only because of card fees and cards only because of possible theft or bank fees?
- pdn1 3y agoThe US should just switch to inches of rope for payments
- thomastjeffery 3y ago6*3=18 What if we just up the nickel from 5¢ to 6¢? The biggest problem our society has with counting is decimal. If we used a base with more factors, our counting would be more flexible, and we wouldn't have to deal with as many remainders and rounding. Just imagine what the metric system would be like if it were made out of duodecimal (base-twelve) instead of decimal! It would be great. Unfortunately, it's far too late. Changing bases would introduce way too much overhead.
- michaelsbradley 3y agoE.g. the British pre-decimal duodecimal currency system?
- riffraff 3y agoBut the British system wasn't really "just" duodecimal either, I recall 20 shilling to a pound and 12 pence to a shilling. I don't recall, but I know about, 4 farthings to a penny. And if Terry Pratchett is to be believed, it was a much worse mess that that.
- dragonwriter 3y ago> E.g. the British pre-decimal duodecimal currency system? It very much was not a duodecimal (powers of 12) system. 1 Farthing (f) 1 half-penny = 2f 1 penny (d) [0] = 4f 1 threepence = 3d = 12f 1 sixpence = 6d = 24f 1 shilling (s) = 12d = 48f 1 crown = 5s = 60d = 240f 1 mark = 13s 4d = 160d = 640f (this was purely a unit of account, and not used after about the 18th C) 1 pound (£) = 20s = 240d = 960f 1 guinea = 1£ 1s = 21s = 260d = 1040f [0] (d) from "denarius", the Roman coin that was the antecedent of the silver penny.
- noam_compsci 3y agoReminds me of the Ali G skit
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]