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AMD’s Phoenix SoC
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- pbj1968 3y agoCan it run Gauntlet Legends 100% in MAME?
- xnx 3y agoHot Chips related, I found this the keynote from Google on the state of the art (that they're willing to talk about) on ML hardware fascinating: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EFe7-WZMMhc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EFe7-WZMMhc I had no idea about so many of the topics discussed like power management and detecting and mitigating calculation errors.
- jauntywundrkind 3y ago> Documentation suggests a 1 GHz clock, but Phoenix’s XDNA might be running at 1.25 GHz as AMD says BF16 is supported with 5 TFLOPS of throughput. It's amazing seeing the ML FPGA come out on a CPU. There's such an incredible opportunity for AMD here, if they can get the world adopting & using this kind of hardware that most folks in dev are not used to using. Great seeing some internal details here. I haven't heard a peep thought about devs actually having access to this hardware. One of the big criticisms at launch time was that there was essentially no material for using this sizable part of the chip. It's not just important for Phoenix & latter chips, it's potential bridge for AMD to make their FPGA in general used & adopted. But like the GPUs, it's questionable whether AMD can get broadscale enough adoption for advantage to mean anything for them. Ideally AMD would be working with yosys or openxla or someone to have an easy to adopt synthesis pipeline folks could play with. Right now I still haven't heard that they have anything, even proprietary or self-made. Edit: oh well, AMD just dropped something! https://www.tomshardware.com/news/amd-posts-ryzen-ai-software-platform-preview-for-developers https://www.tomshardware.com/news/amd-posts-ryzen-ai-softwar...
- dhruvdh 3y agoDirect link to developer docs - https://ryzenai.docs.amd.com/en/latest/index.html https://ryzenai.docs.amd.com/en/latest/index.html
- cherryteastain 3y agoSuch a shame this is not a part of ROCm. It'd give developers a big incentive to actually use it, unlike the dumpster fire state it is in now.
- arein3 3y agoWindows only software. I am/was a big fan of AMD for finally giving the market cheap powerful laptops. My laptop is amd, my PC and a few other PCs I build were all AMD, but I might have to go with Intel on the next GPU because they have open source GPU drivers.
- hamandcheese 3y agoI thought AMD has open source drivers for their GPUs?
- beebeepka 3y agoFor Linux
- ekianjo 3y agoOf course not. Most of it is just binary blobs. They just open source how to interface with the blobs
- chrismorgan 3y agoI don’t know much about the space, but I believe the situation is that the AMDGPU driver is open-source, but that there’s also the closed-source AMDGPU PRO userspace driver that sits atop it and can add certain extra functionality that (I gather) most people will never care about and which potentially performs a lot worse, so that for most users the recommendation is not to use it. Relevant reading: https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/AMDGPU-PRO https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/AMDGPU-PRO, https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/AMDGPU_PRO https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/AMDGPU_PRO.
- imiric 3y agoAbsolutely love this chipset. It powers my favorite tech of 2023. The 7840U is a beast in handhelds, and the 7940HS likewise in laptops and mini PCs. They're great for gaming, media, productivity, and anything you throw at it. Intel cannot compete with the performance and TDP of these. AMD is completely dominating the portable x86 segment, so much so, that I'm not envious of Apple's dominance of ARM. Can't wait to see the next generation of this chipset, as well as whatever Intel can produce in response.
- jwells89 3y agoJust wish I could find a 7840U in a flagship ~13” ultrabook with a big battery. That’s surprisingly hard to find, for some reason AMD tends to get relegated to second-tier models and paired with middling batteries.
- bronson 3y agoNot far off: https://frame.work/products/laptop-diy-13-gen-amd?q=processor https://frame.work/products/laptop-diy-13-gen-amd?q=processo... Impressive, especially for the price.
- NewJazz 3y agoI wish I could get the lower specced CPU with the bigger battery :/
- bas3l1ne 3y agoThe Thinkpad z13 (gen 2) hasn't released yet, but is probably the closest thing to what you're looking for
- suprjami 3y agoCurrent ThinkPad T14 has 7840U. This is the same width/length as my "13 inch" Skylake ultrabook (Asus UX305UA) and only 3mm thicker. ThinkPad T14s Gen 3 has a 6850U and is ~1mm thinner than T14. You're right though, none of them are superthin (<15mm) like ThinkPad X1 Carbon or Dell XPS 13. Maybe it's not possible to cool these faster AMD CPUs in such a small volume? Nobody wants to type on a space heater. Edit: found these pages with complete lists, hell yeah https://www.ultrabookreview.com/36030-amd-ryzen-7-u-laptops/ https://www.ultrabookreview.com/36030-amd-ryzen-7-u-laptops/ https://www.ultrabookreview.com/35985-amd-ryzen-9-laptops/ https://www.ultrabookreview.com/35985-amd-ryzen-9-laptops/
- sneak 3y agoIs it just me, or does the inclusion of a Microsoft Pluton HSM (and of course the AMD PSP) inside the SoC make this a no-go for security critical stuff? I'm sure systems vendors will love putting these in Windows laptops (a growing market with a bright future, I'm sure) but I can't imagine hackers having much use for these things.
- wmf 3y agoIt's just you. It's unlikely that Pluton is actually evil but MS keeps creating bad PR by refusing to document it.
- rhaway84773 3y agoIf not creating documentation is leading to bad PR why doesn’t MS just create the documentation instead? Occam’s razor would suggest it’s because accurate documentation would create worse PR. That’s not reassuring at all.
- feitingen 3y agoMicrosoft has a long history of refusing to document stuff. They also have a long history of being evil, so it's probably not interesting for them to document it to seem less evil.
- hypercube33 3y agoDocumentation may be feared since it could be used to attack the Xbox or surface devices' security. Plus their documentation mode has been moving to "make the customer do it" with their GitHub docs - at a conference they were giving away swag to people who would write articles for them.
- pjmlp 3y agoIt is documented for OEMs.
- ilyt 3y agoHistorically anything MS wanted to have in hardware was to make it more PITA to install windows alternatives. It's extremely likely it is.
- tedunangst 3y agoNote that you can still buy a new 7000 series mobile ryzen with Vega GCN graphics if that's your thing.
- icegreentea2 3y agoYes, the 7030 family will net you Zen3 + Vega cores. The 7030s are ultimately rebadges of Cezanne - so the old mobile 5000 series parts.
- beebeepka 3y agoYou sure about that? I think my 6800h has RDNA2. There are more rebrands in the 7000 family, though, and some do indeed have Vega chips. The person you replied to us correct but you are not.
- unethical_ban 3y agoIt's a massive disservice to customers to have 7030 series and 7040 series be different generations of chip.
- speed_spread 3y agoWeird quote of the week, from the article: "As another note, dog hearing can cover the 20-35 KHz range, so the ultrasound engine may be able to detect static dogs by making them non-static, after which they will cause a Doppler shift." So what's a static dog? Rust me wants a &'static dog, Java me wants a static final dog. And I also want a real dog named Doppler, or maybe just Shift?
- treprinum 3y ago7940HS in my 4090 laptop is cool, though I am worried about the future starting with Phoenix 2 that will feature few good cores (Zen 5) and many crappy cores (Zen 5c). Not sure why AMD had to ape a failing Intel arch here that was introduced only to improve Intel's multicore benchmarks. Now with AMD we will get all the "heterogenous goodies" when programs keep running into weird states due to scheduler not being 100% in its core allocations. Even if 5c's only difference is in the smaller cache and slower AVX-512, this could bite in unpredictable ways. Moreover, if AMD really needed to go with this hybrid design, why not ape Apple M1 or M2 with only 2 or 4 crappy cores?
- DeepYogurt 3y ago> "heterogenous goodies" Like battery life
- Klinky 3y agoYou can do more power optimizations with efficiency cores than the performance cores. There are power tradeoffs to get max perf. You can significantly reduce vcore if your max frequency is much lower. Cache is also power hungry & takes up space.
- treprinum 3y ago5c should be the same as 5 but with a smaller cache (unlike Core vs Atom distinction in Intel CPUs). I'd rather have a CPU full of 5c than a mix of 5 and 5c.
- wtallis 3y agoEarly indications are that Zen 4c actually requires significantly higher voltage for the same clock speed as plain Zen 4 cores (though still a lower voltage than Zen 4 at speeds far beyond the reach of Zen 4c). All the savings AMD gets by targeting ~3.5GHz peak rather than 5+ GHz has been put into shrinking the core area: https://zhuanlan.zhihu.com/p/653961282 https://zhuanlan.zhihu.com/p/653961282
- Klinky 3y ago
- Havoc 3y agoI wonder if this with lots of ram will make it similarly useful for large parameter llm like macs
- fgblanch 3y agoNo, the reason macs are better on LLMs is memory bandwidth 800Gb/s on Ultra 2 . I couldn’t find a good source but it seems that Ally mem bandwidth is around 70GB/s
- wtallis 3y agoA combination of high memory bandwidth and large memory capacity is necessary for good performance on LLMs. Plenty of consumer GPUs have great memory bandwidth but not enough capacity for the good LLMs. AMD's Phoenix has a memory bus too narrow to enable GPU-like bandwidth, and when paired with the faster memory it supports (LPDDR5 rather than DDR5) it won't offer much more memory capacity than consumer GPUs.
- diffeomorphism 3y ago> won't offer much more memory A mini PC with that chip, 1 TB of storage and 64GB of ram (both replaceable) costs like 800€ and fits behind your monitor. Getting that much memory in a consumer GPU is definitely quite a bit more expensive. Also, for comparison an M2 Ultra with that amount of storage and ram is 4800€. So I am not doubting that a 6 times as expensive computer is probably "better" by some metric, but for that drastic difference I am not sure that is enough.
- moooo99 3y agoWhile I 100% agree on the price comparison, you’ll need to reach some threshold for LLM performance to consider them as usable. As Someone not very knowledgeable at the topic, the pure difference in the numbers lead me to question if you could even reach that usable performance threshold with the 800€ mini PC
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- MassiveBonk51 3y agoI want these to come to desktop at some point. I'd really love to have a compact x86 box powered by one.
- bj-rn 3y agoYou could buy a framework mainboard and build one: https://frame.work/products/mainboard-kit-amd-ryzen-7040-series https://frame.work/products/mainboard-kit-amd-ryzen-7040-ser...
- ajmurmann 3y agoAren't these in mini desktops like the Minisforum (https://a.co/d/9BugA0r https://a.co/d/9BugA0r) already? I just bought my wife a older model for $250 to play older games together. It's ~1/4 the size of a mac Mini and the stuff we care about (CS:Source, Minecraft) runs like a rocket ship.
- wsc981 3y agoIs this PC quiet? Actually been thinking about a Minisforum Venus last week ...
- lhl 3y agoThe UM790 is pretty quiet under normal use, but has about a +7dB wooshing when maxed out (not too annoying, but definitely noticeable - it's a bit quieter than my Framework laptop under stress testing). Notebookcheck has a full review and has measured noise emissions: https://www.notebookcheck.net/Minisforum-Venus-Series-UM790-Pro-review-Better-than-its-competitors-thanks-to-an-AMD-Ryzen-9-7940HS-and-a-Radeon-780M.735424.0.html#toc-12 https://www.notebookcheck.net/Minisforum-Venus-Series-UM790-... I've been using this as my home workstation for the past month or so and have been keeping my own notes. The biggest caveat is that there are stability problems (mine and others seem to be lockups w/ C6 on Ryzen, there are others where lowering RAM speed (from 5600 to 4800 or 4000) clear things up, and for some people, it's with multiple monitors plugged in). There was a recent BIOS upgrade that updated AMD's AGESA and GOP but that doesn't seem to have helped much. * https://github.com/lhl/linuxlaptops/wiki/Minisforum-UM790-Pro#2023-08-19-important-note https://github.com/lhl/linuxlaptops/wiki/Minisforum-UM790-Pr... * https://bbs.minisforum.com/forums/ryzen%E2%84%A2-9-7940hs.190/ https://bbs.minisforum.com/forums/ryzen%E2%84%A2-9-7940hs.19...
- bearjaws 3y agoHaving recently bought a ROG ally, I have to say I am incredibly impressed with the SOC. It is pretty quiet and can run most of my games very well. I am blown away to play OW2, Apex, Cities Skylines and even BOTW on a hand held device, incredible device for people who travel a lot.
- ekianjo 3y agoThe steam deck could do that a year before the Ally and with much longer battery life
- rowanG077 3y agoAnd with a lot worse screen. The screen is the main thing keeping me away.
- ekianjo 3y ago> And with a lot worse screen. Funny, millions of Steam Deck users have no problem with it. I tried the ROG Ally and was not wowed by the screen at all. It's better, but that's it.
- NikolaNovak 3y agoReally? Have you used it? I've used steam deck for a year. Literally never have I wished for more resolution, which would eat up power and battery for no discernable benefit at that size and distance. I read the specs for new lenovo hand held and it boggles my mind that people would want that kind of compromise. Every review acknowledges that you'll have to play games at lowered actual resolution anyway.
- bearjaws 3y agoCross comparing the Ally and Deck its a marked difference in BG3.
- rowanG077 3y agoIt's not about resolution for me. It's about brightness and refresh rate. And yes I have used the Steam Dec, in fact I have used both. Maybe you shouldn't be so dismissive about what other people feel is important. It's not a good look.
- flakiness 3y agoAny recommended Linux laptop with this? Does Framework 16 have it? What else? I was thinking about Dell XPS but AMD's 16 threads CPU is so appealing.
- gmokki 3y agoWe just put in orders for Lenovo P14s gen 4 amd laptops for developers. With 64G ram, 2.8k OLED display. We have been very happy with P14s gen 2 amd with 4k display, but it has only 32G of ram. The 15W 8 core Ryzen apu has been silent and performant.
- iopq 3y agoXDNA benchmarks when
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- pixelpoet 3y agoNo OpenCL drivers, no interest from me.
- d3w4s9 3y agoHave been using a 7735HS (6800H) based mini PC for the last few days, very impressed with it -- the entire machine idles at 10W, light load < 20W, medium load at < 40W and heavy load ~ 60W. The fan isn't on most of the time. The latest generation is likely better, and U series is even quieter. It has better performance and produces less heat than my Intel NUC and laptop.
- andrea76 3y agoPlease tell us what mini pc is
- d3w4s9 3y agoMinisforum UM773 Lite (I hesitated a long time before the purchase, because I wanted the combination of an Intel NUC warranty and reliability, AMD CPU, good design & cooling plus a good price -- which of course does not exist. However I haven't had an issue so far, and I hope it lasts long)
- andrea76 3y agoI have heard of the instability of this Minisforum under certain CPU loads. Do you confirm it?
- d3w4s9 3y agoCould you elaborate what you mean by "instability"? I have used the machine for a number of tasks -- remote desktop, video calls, development with IDE, building Chromium, and benchmarking and haven't seen a blue screen so far. (Yes using Windows)
- tyrfing 3y ago10 watts idle, really? That seems extremely high. Do you have C-states disabled?
- getcrunk 3y ago
- Const-me 3y agoIf you consider a laptop with Ryzen 9 7940HS, and you gonna pay with your own money, note that Ryzen 7 7840HS is pretty much the same chip. The only difference between the two seems to be a couple hundred MHz of various clock frequencies, which is barely relevant for laptops due to thermal throttling on sustained workloads. The rest of the specs are the same, but Ryzen 7 is somewhat cheaper due to marketing. For example, at the time of writing the configurator for HP ZBook Firefly 14 G10 A laptops offered in US says the price difference is $285.
- ilyt 3y agoSpikes of work is how most workflows work, max frequency is far from irrelevant. Sure, if your main wait is waiting for compile it won't help that much but everything else it is helpful
- Const-me 3y agoI don’t think in this case it matters even for spiky workloads. The relative difference is too small. The difference in CPU base frequency is 3.8 versus 4.0 GHz, which is 5% slower. However, for spiky workloads boost frequency is IMO more relevant than base frequency. With boost, the clock speed difference diminishes to the laughable 2%. Specifically, they are 5.2GHz for the R9, and 5.1GHz for the R7. AMD doesn’t publish boost clock for GPU, but relative difference in base GPU frequency is 3.6%. I’m aware marketing generally works, making people willing to pay more just for the feeling they have the best hardware money can buy. But personally, I believe saving these $285 and getting 95-98% of the performance is a good deal. P.S. Ryzen 5 from the same line up, the 7640HS, is substantially slower. It has fewer CPU cores, and fewer GPU compute units.
- lakomen 3y agoLately, since I'm not in my home country right now, and like playing games, I've been using my home computer with a 4070 rtx to play and stream h264 encoded game play, using GeForce experience and moonlight. But since this uses quite some power and also I dualboot with Linux being the default (I turn on the machine with IPMI, Asus workstation board), then ssh into it, become root and efibootmgr temporarily to boot Windows on next boot and reboot. In Windows then both TeamViewer is installed, because doing anything in GeForce Experience locks up the Moonlight "server", and the Moonlight streaming stuff, aka firewall opener, so I don't have to wireguard every time. Although my desktop/workstation is 4k resolution, I stream at 1920×1080 resolution. I can even stream to Twitch at the same time, but it's not ideal. I imagine, I need either a dedicated encoding card or a stronger Nvidia card than the 4070. I get some stuttering every now and then. 6Mbps goes to Twitch, 30 max to me and my 1920×1080 laptop. Since this is all very complicated, I was thinking, have a dedicated gaming machine which doesn't consume that much power, which I can put to sleep or wake via Moonlight. This looks like a candidate, but it's AMD and idk if that will work. Ok, I looked it up and phoenix should work if it has VCE (which I assume it does, the article doesnt talk about it). Ideally I could put it in some data center for a minimum fee, but that's wishful thinking, because that fee would not be minimum. With stadia gone and shadowPC having outdated hardware for expensive prices, it could be something. TBH I wouldn't mind renting a gaming computer with streaming, but let's be honest, all the offers assume you're not a pirate. And that's why they're all failing. So yeah this little box (or soc rather) could be my next hardware purchase, a dedicated game streaming machine. :) EDIT: I retract that statement, now that I've searched for 780M performance. It would require a dedicated GPU. Oh well. It's a little weaker than the Nvidia 980M of my laptop, but makes less noise. For energy efficiency it's ok, but if you like playing the latest and greatest, not an option. It's essential 30FPS 1920×1080 gaming.
- sylware 3y agoHopefully it will be easy to find good and not that expensive laptops with such chips. Now I wish for a 100% hardware raytracing BHV... if raytracing stays around. I hope RDNA4 will do that. Because those horrible mesa RADV glsl shaders to do "soft" BHV, erk... (I prefer to disable RT and compile that out, and remove the glslang SDK dependency...). They should have been coded directly in SPIR-V (with a plain and simple C coded SPIR-V translater, or better, direct AMD GPU assembly code (with a plain and simple C coded AMD GPU assembler).
- fancyfredbot 3y agoDoes any software at all use XDNA?