8 ms·

I'm an aging millennial, but on a purely personal level, when I lived in a city with good public transit, I was a lot happier, most of the time. I really like s

I'm an aging millennial, but on a purely personal level, when I lived in a city with good public transit, I was a lot happier, most of the time. I really like stepping off the train and the bus and being on my own two feet, the walking exercise, not being chained to this thing I have to worry about. I hate driving, I hate parking, I hate owning a car--the maintenance, the ongoing cost of fuel and insurance, all of it. I was happy to have it to leave the city, but overall, it was a last resort. I live somewhere that requires a car now, and it's fine, traffic isn't so bad, I like cranking my music and being able to haul shit around, but even then, I don't get the emotional association of freedom that previous generations did. I don't know what's different, although I have some guesses. Money, I'm sure, but there's something that's nagging me about it. Maybe it's the internet. Maybe it's that communication technology makes the world feel closer and more immediate than it used to. I'd be curious to hear about how/whether the experience of driving has changed over the decades, but freedom to my cohort means something else. People get sanctimonious about not owning or using a car, and that's annoying. I just wish there were more options. I don't see us (in the US) removing car infrastructure. I could see additive changes, though, which include national public transit, with some political will and creative thinking, which means it'll never happen.

wkat4242 4y ago
Me too. I hate the stress of driving. The busy traffic, all the mistakes you can make and be fined for, the hurry of some people. Expensive everything. I live in a city now with amazing public transport and I don't miss my car at all.
- SketchySeaBeast 4y ago
  It's also utterly wasted time. You can't do anything with it and you can't even zone out because you're actively driving. While walking or on a bus you can read or devote your whole attention to an audio book. You're not home, but it's still your time.
  - wkat4242 4y ago
    Totally agree! It feels like I got part of my life back <3
maxsilver 4y ago
> but even then, I don't get the emotional association of freedom that previous generations did. I don't know what's different, although I have some guesses. Money, I'm sure, but there's something that's nagging me about it. I'd argue it's a combination of money and aging infrastructure. Money is the big one (cars used to be a lot cheaper, both to buy and to maintain. Incomes for most used to be much higher). Infrastructure is another, in a lot of places, they haven't meaningfully upgraded any of the public driving transportation infrastructure since the 1950s to 1970s, so a lot of infrastructure is handling car volumes 200% to 600% higher than they were ever engineered for. In Michigan, there's still very much a lot of "fun/freedom" around cars. But our population has been pretty flat this entire time (+/-2% pop change YoY since the 1960s), so even though the infrastructure is old, it's usually appropriately sized for the population in all but the newest-growth places. If you live in, say Seattle, you very much don't get that experience, public vehicle transit infrastructure has not kept up at all, and so driving is artificially a lot more of a painful burden there.
- anovikov 4y ago
  Well but this is simply not the case. Cars did not get more expensive in the last 30-40 years vs CPI and much more accessible vs median let alone average income. They also last a lot longer so used cars are much more of an option than they were 30 let alone 60 years ago.
  - maxsilver 4y ago
    > Cars did not get more expensive in the last 30-40 years vs CPI and much more accessible vs median let alone average income. This is objectively false, cars absolutely did get more expensive in the last 30 years, they cost about double what they did in 1990, even after accounting for inflation. (see https://thesoundingline.com/since-1990-the-price-of-a-cheap-car-has-risen-380-cpi-says-its-only-risen-17/ https://thesoundingline.com/since-1990-the-price-of-a-cheap-... as just one example of the math on that). They may "last longer", sure, but that can itself also carry negative impacts (particularly on fuel economy, safety, and air pollution)
    - deleted 4y ago
bamboozled 4y ago
the maintenance, the ongoing cost of fuel and insurance, all of it. Not sure if rich people worry about this, which is what the article is about, rich people. Agree wit everything else you said though.
- oftitogf 4y ago
  It's not about rich people, it's about people at all levels of wealth in the developed world. Rich relative to the world's poorest, but not the 1% who don't worry about the costs of owning a car.
  - mercutio2 4y ago
    In the US, no one in the top 40% has to worry about the costs of car ownership. The richest 1% of Americans are much richer than worrying about the costs of cars, certainly, but the median American income is just very high relative to the cost of car ownership.
ghaff 4y ago
I think a lot of younger people who choose to live in a city, especially new grads, are essentially continuing their college experience. A lot of friends probably live in the city too. They can often bum transportation/do joint activities from friends who do own cars and are mostly fine with minimizing out of city activities that require a car. They also restrict themselves to jobs they can easily get to. Which in tech was basically impossible in, say, Boston 25 years ago. A friend of mine made the observation that people mostly just don't do optional activities if they're hard or expensive to do. So if you live carless in a city with decent public transit, you mostly restrict your recreational activities and people you get together with to what's convenient and tend not to do things that require renting a car on a Friday night and returning it Sunday or Monday.
- nradov 4y ago
  Wow. That seems such a sad and limiting way to live your life. I love how I can use my cars to go anywhere at any time without depending on anyone else. And my family and I do a lot of optional activities. Different perspective, I guess.
  - BeFlatXIII 4y ago
    Depends on the options available in your city. It's like the arguments against piracy based on the fear that no one will make books or movies ever again. Even if true, the existing stock has far more than anyone can enjoy in a single lifetime.
  - brmgb 4y ago
    > Wow. That seems such a sad and limiting way to live your life. Mostly true in my experience. I used to get away a lot more when I had a car and could just decide to hit the road whenever I wanted than I do now that I either have to rent or plan earlier and buy train tickets. It's purely friction linked by the way. I could still do all the things I did and it would actually cost me less money in the end. I just don't.
    - hunter2_ 4y ago
vidarh 4y ago
I'm 47, and have never bothered getting a drivers license because I've always lived places where the combination of public transport with fallback to taxis has been good enough. Add on Uber and equivalent, and my need for cars is lower than ever. If I'd lived somewhere a car was needed, I'd have learned. It's not an ideological opposition to cars by any means. Occasionally I consider getting a drivers license, and then forget about it, because it's just never felt worth the hassle. Like you I've just never felt that emotional association with freedom from a car. I think an essential aspect of that was growing up somewhere where I felt I had the same options without one.
- kevinali1 4y ago
  While I totally agree with this, I think you should still get a drivers license. There's always a very real possibility that you may need to drive a car in some sort of emergency.
  - yesenadam 4y ago
    > I think you should still get a drivers license Or learn to drive, at least. I don't think lack of a licence would stop you driving in a real emergency.
    - hunter2_ 4y ago
      This might depend on location. For me, maintaining a license works out to a few USD/yr so you might as well do it if only for emergencies, to avoid a citation in an emergency (though I'll admit it's far-fetched for that to occur). In a place where licensing is expensive, I'd agree with your take.
    - SketchySeaBeast 4y ago
      Probably get a license though. A real emergency is when you're most likely to make mistakes behind the wheel and you're going to be in a lot of trouble if you get in an unlicensed accident.
  - vidarh 4y ago
Earw0rm 4y ago
Yep.. something about setting out in to the unknown, a battered paper map as your guide, and the combination of surprise and lack of accountability (doesn't perfectly describe what I mean, but I can't find a better word) you'd get in return. It was possible to do that before cars, but mass car ownership & a modern road network made it something the average consumer could do semi-routinely, instead of something that required more spare time & energy than people had day to day. When you know not only what businesses, facilities etc. you'll find in the town 50km away, but have a fair idea of what they're like (google reviews..), the world is so much a smaller place than it was even up until the mid 1990s. And with social media, you're no more or less a stranger in your own town than anywhere else.
- foobarian 4y ago
  Street view is the last nail in the coffin, why drive when you can just take a peek from your computer. On the flip side, it's a fun activity to do with my kid. Pick a random country, "drive around" on SV to see what it's like there. I'm sure we lose something from the watered down interaction though. Walking into a faraway bar or diner and chatting up the locals is much more enriching.
- earthling8118 4y ago
  Yet now, to me, public transit is the way to venture out into that unknown. Finding out a cool new place along a route you use, or even trying out a new route and seeing what it gets you. That's been super enjoyable. With cars I only have time to go to things that I already know about. I can't look around well enough while paying attention to the road. If I'm on a bus I can see something cool and hop off and go check it out
  - Earw0rm 4y ago
    Same with bikes. You're present in the space in a way you just can't be in a car. Not as quick of course, but enough to cover a meaningful amount of ground across the city while still being able to interact as if you were on foot, more or less. Long distance trains too, for the serendipity of random conversation.
rr808 4y ago
I think flying is so cheap and ubiquitous now it makes a big difference. 30-40 years ago if you wanted to go away for vacation you probably drove, where now people often fly several times a year.
secretsatan 4y ago
I haven't owned a car for at least 15 years since I moved to Switzerland, don't miss it at all. I do occasionally need a car, so I'm a member of a car sharing scheme, they always have cars nearby, I pay a low yearly feee and a low rate per time and kms used, easy to book with an app, probably cost me the same for a year as a parking space for a month. For an occasional weekend away I might get a car from a regular hire company as they workout cheaper for longer distance. I suppose I never drove that much before in the UK, never really had to commute as I always try and live within walking distance to work, although I would sometimes drive if it was bad weather, but that was because public transport wasn't really an option for that, the buses were frequently backed up in the rush hour traffic and all would arrive at once instead of being evenly staggered, meaning long waits in the rain where it would have been quicker to walk anyway.
- detourdog 4y ago
  I have an 8-unit apartment building in small New England town. I'm seriously considering getting a car as a building amenity. The car would be reserved and shared amongst the tenants.
  - dublinben 4y ago
    You might be able to just partner with one of the existing providers in this space, like Zipcar, and let them handle the logistics: https://www.zipcar.com/business/residential https://www.zipcar.com/business/residential
    - detourdog 4y ago
      I have reached out to manufacturers that offer the ability to pay a fixed amount for access to cars. Last I checked they were all individual focused products. Zipcar could work but I find the more relationships I have the more paperwork. I would control all aspects and simply add it to the keycard for tracking. If I introduce a third party it removes human judgement from the individuals involved in the relationship. I have no interest outsourcing my relationships to corporations lawyers to the extent possible. It definitely will make sense for some people but I happen to be a lunatic. They are addressing a large scale building. I will only have 8 people and can get as many cars as 8 people are willing to pay for.
oweiler 4y ago
I detest my car. Not only is it generally more expensive than public transport, you always have to set aside money to replace or fix broken parts. Regularly driving to the oil station sucks. Traffic jams, which are more and more commonplace, sucks.
- nradov 4y ago
  I love my car. Not only is it faster and more convenient than public transport, it is highly reliable and not subject to union strikes. All of the maintenance is quick and cheap. There are multiple fuel stations nearby. Traffic jams do suck, but adaptive cruise control makes them suck a lot less.
  - sagarm 4y ago
    > traffic jams do suck Or put more succinctly, you agree cars suck. Some of us just go one car further.
    - nradov 4y ago
      I don't agree at all. Cars are awesome! Reliable, fast personal mobility is a huge step forward in quality of life.
      - sagarm 4y ago
        traffic is what we call it when cars get together to have a good time
LoveMortuus 4y ago
I'm also a millennial and while I don't like having to pay for maintenance and fuel, driving around the country side has been one of the best spent time. I love the views and the silence*, the feel of the road and the discovery of unknown views. I don't have a lot of money, some might even say that I don't have money. I drive a Citroen Saxo 1.0 year 2000 in the golden colour and the incredible sense of freedom it gives me is strong enough where I don't care how much a car costs ( It cost 350€), I don't care for luxury, I mean my radio stopped working about three years ago. I still remember my father telling me many years ago, not being able to drive is like not being able to read or write, you're basically illiterate, and to some extent I have to agree. Having a car gives me the same feeling of freedom that I've felt when I was able to walk again after getting my legs messed up.
thesuitonym 4y ago
>I don't get the emotional association of freedom that previous generations did. Previous generations would just go out for a ride, take the car out on Sunday and and enjoy the scenery. We just don't do that anymore, either because we're more concerned about the environmental effects of driving, or that we just have more interesting things to do. Not to mention, when this idea of "the freedom of a car" came about, even many smaller cities still had decent transit systems, and were denser. A car truly was freedom, because you could choose to walk downtown, or take the car, or go to the next city over because they have a really nice cafe that you like. Nowadays if you want to go anywhere, unless you're lucky enough to live in a dense city with good transit, there's no choice. It's not freedom anymore, it's a sentence.
- synthpop 4y ago
  It's ironic that as a result of previous generations of the USA being so terminally car-pilled, the "scenery" of most American towns/destinations have slowly transformed into bland, ugly parking lots as far as the eye can see.
  - noobermin 4y ago
    Of course, the generations that did this will deny they had any hand in it, and suck it up to their children (you know, the ones they raised apparently) are lazy, sheltered (by who I wonder), etc etc.
- jtr1 4y ago
  > Previous generations would just go out for a ride, take the car out on Sunday and and enjoy the scenery. We just don't do that anymore, either because we're more concerned about the environmental effects of driving, or that we just have more interesting things to do. I'm also an older millennial and like GP have no emotional attachment to cars. I also mildly resent my dependence on them, having traveled in places with fantastic public transport. I find them lonely and isolating. I agree about the enviromental cost and other forms of entertainment. I think most of the rest can be explained by the combination of novelty + nostalgia for previous generations. Older Boomers caught the upswing out the highway act when there were new roads everywhere and an explosion of innovation in car design. The country wasn't yet totally built to enforce car ownership via sprawl, so I imagine a nice afternoon drive in the country was a thing many people enjoyed and created fond memories around.
readingnews 4y ago
Hrm, I guess I _am_ getting older. Now that I think about it, I have owned a car for about 35 years. When I got the first one, used, it was $500. Insurance was high, but not insane like today (my children do not drive, as I can not afford the insurance). I recall that back then (we had BBSs, FIDOnet and USENET groups) it was still an item that gave you freedom. You needed it to visit people or go to the cafe which was far away. I think as time progresses, I have truly learned to dislike my car(s). Insurance where I am is out of control (one of the highest in the nation), a new car is so far out of reach it is not funny, and used ones cost far more than the last new car I purchased. I think as others have noted, there may be a number of factors leading to people not wanting them... A few young people I know do not have cars, when asked the reasons are typically money (biggest one) and pure need / desire. I think when we were young it was as symbol of freedom. I think now it is (rightfully so) either a status symbol to some, or a ball and chain that costs money just sitting in your driveway (maintenance, depreciation, insurance).
- lamontcg 4y ago
  I'm from the same BBS/Usenet era and I used to be heavily into cars, now I can't imagine spending >$30k on a massively depreciating asset. I also hate how cars have become massive steel tanks on wheels.
usrusr 4y ago
It really is a "the grass is bleaker on the other side" situation. As a public transport person I feel weirdly constrained by the idea that a day's itinerary will inevitably have to see me return to wherever the car is parked, impossible to do spontaneous things like walk a few stops, ride with an acquaintance or something like that that would eventually take me home, but not return to some previous stage. With a car, everything that happens outside the car is inevitably out-and-back. A car person will never miss that little freedom because they don't know it and objectively it's truly not that big an issue. But if you are not used to the pattern of always returning to wherever you parked it can feel surprisingly limiting. Similar things apply in the reverse, to a public transport person it's just natural to mentally map out a city's topology in units of line changes required, but a car person will feel outrageously constrained.
- CalRobert 4y ago
  True freedom is a folding bike! Ride to point a, take your Brompton with you on the train to point B, ride to point c, etc.
  - eastbound 4y ago
    True freedom is city bikes. Go anywhere worry-free, empty handed, come back using a simple card. 35€ per year in Lyon, France. Unplanned arrival at 1am in the wrong train station? A bike is still waiting for you. Drawbacks: It’s only free for 30 minutes per trip; Sometimes you still get the bike stolen for 150€.
    - thehappypm 4y ago
      Sadly cold climate areas struggle with making this a reality. Boston has a big network of these bikes and ridership is huge in the warmer months, but drops off a cliff when it gets cold and icy. I know areas in Europe achieve this, but Copenhagen is warmer and less snowy than Boston.
      - Xylakant 4y ago
ajmurmann 4y ago
I bought a brand new Kia Soul for $20k and am very happy with it. I greatly enjoy driving twisty rural roads, especially in Europe where speed limits don't change for every curve. However, I dislike driving in urban areas where it's all about avoiding an accident and looking out for other drivers doing stupid stuff. Even worse if I'm driving somewhere new and have to navigate at the same time. So stressful! What I really dislike though is living in a place that's made for cars. I miss walking to a grocery store to pick up a few things, walking to a friend's to hang out or just walking to a bar or restaurant to meet up. I've lived in the American suburbs now (mostly due to affordability) and hasn't had that experience in a long time. However, I recently had to do a unusual trip to a city in Germany near where I grew up and stayed at a downtown hotel. I mentioned to a friend that I was there and he texted me that he and his girlfriend happened to be having dinner in a restaurant not far away. Just being able to walk over and sit outside on a street filled with other diners, playing children and some guy playing piano was incredible. I'm not sure if this is all due to car centricity or other circumstances like having childhood friends in that city, it was a beautiful summer day, I was going through a tough emergency and seeing friends is extra nice then. However, given all the caveats I don't think I'd headed over to meet them if I had needed to get into a car, find parking etc since it was very short notice and I didn't know if I had 10 minutes or 3 hours till I had to go back to the emergency situation. What I do know is that I do badly want more of that all the time!
stcroixx 4y ago
You live somewhere that requires a car and you have a car, so yeah, there's no association of car=freedom for you. That is for people who live in the same place as you but don't have a car. When they get one, it's 'ah, freedom'. You could experience this too if you tried to live your normal life without your car.
pookha 4y ago
I felt like I was going to get murdered by some guy wigging out in NYCs subways. And I'm attuned to sketchy situations thanks to my youth and there was a menacing vibe even without the nutter. And the bus? God no. I rode the city bus as a kid. Guy was dealing drugs in the back, gangs would abuse and bully a gay dude like every day...it was a show. Thank god for the freedom, safety and flexibility my personal vehicle provides.
asciimov 4y ago
As an aging millennial that grew up in West Texas, I have the exact opposite feelings. To me cars, equal freedom. I grew up in a small neighborhood, I rode bikes to my friends houses there but my neighborhood was so far removed from other places and stores that there was no other place to go. Getting my license at 16 opened so many doors for me. Now I could go hang out at my other friends houses that lived 10-15 miles away from me. I could get a job, go to the store and movies, and just cruse around without having my parents question me. I didn't have a cell phone back then, so being able to leave and not be contacted was glorious. For college I moved out to the Texas Panhandle. When gas was cheap I'd often go out for long drives into the country with friends, to talk, so explore and see what was out there, to visit family, and to make beer runs because our city was dry meaning you had to go out of town to buy a six pack. When I have had extended periods of not having a vehicle I have get a visceral sense of foreboding and dread. I feel like a caged animal, unable to leave any situation, escape in case of danger. These feelings mildly lessen if public transit is available, but they are still there. Having any kind of vehicle feels like safety as I know I can flee if I need to, even if I don't.
- AlphaCharlie 4y ago
  Do you live in a low density area? I think your point of view aligns well with the idea that increased density and good alternative transit options lead to less need and want for cars. But rural and isolated areas can’t live without a car (or a credible alternative). As much as I’d like car to disappear, there’s a lot of use of it that we can’t replace without severely altering some of the population’s quality of life
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - asciimov 4y ago
    I'm sure many would consider where I grew up low density. It was just underdeveloped suburban section of a town of 110K people. I'm sure when everything is in walking distance, that the costs to store a vehicle becomes unmaintainable, and largely unneeded. But for a large swath of American's living outside of the major metros in the north, having a car is just a way of life.
stuckinhell 4y ago
I'm an aging millennial as well. I love having a car! I can't imagine not having a car when you have KIDS! Driving them to their various sports games, with a car full of their equipment. Going camping with them. Getting groceries for a family of 5. I can't imagine doing that on public transport.
- t0bia_s 4y ago
  Family of 5, no car, just bikes. It is possible. It just depends on where do you live and how comfortable you are.
- warner25 4y ago
  I think we can recognize the tremendous utility of something without having an emotional connection like love for it. I agree that I can't imagine not having a car with my four little kids. I also can't imagine not having laundry machines with four little kids, but I don't love my laundry machines; I'm not passionate about them. If you swapped them out with different but reasonably equivalent machines, I wouldn't even blink. Edited to add: And when I don't have four little kids anymore, I'd be happy to live car-free in a walkable city or use a laundry service.
  - stuckinhell 4y ago
    I chose the word Love and I meant it. Humans are emotional beings first and thinking beings second (Though this maybe my day job of management leaking through). Every time I look at my car, I remember my children's "firsts", and honestly I know I'll be very sad when that car breaks down.
    - warner25 4y ago
      Fair point. My car has served me a lot longer than my laundry machines, and it indeed has many more memories connected to it. Now I'm wondering if that's unique to my car or any old object that been close to me for 15 years. I guess I have a simple backpack like that too.
- 4y ago
warner25 4y ago
Excellent post. My car is a Prius, at the lowest trim model, that I bought when I graduated from college 15 years ago. I "love it" in the sense that I love how cheap and reliable it has been. I totally view it as an appliance to get me from A to B with minimal fuss. And for the past ten years, my wife and I have largely organized our life to minimize how much time we spend driving around. We've spent a good portion of our marriage sharing the Prius as our only car. My Boomer parents, on the other hand, own five or six cars, including several Corvettes and still go on long drives just for fun. We just can't understand each other. I also live in a place now that has a "car culture," like people come to visit for races and car shows, and to do scenic drives in their exotic Ferrari and Lamborghini sports cars. To a first approximation, it's all Boomers.
01100011 4y ago
I'm an aging gen x'er. I would feel the same way if American cities were safer, more polite, and more pleasant to live in. I visited Tokyo a few decades ago and was amazed at what life could be like. Unfortunately, the issues of modern American cities compel me to seek life in the suburbs or rural areas, necessitating a single passenger vehicle.
codexb 4y ago
I can accept that people can find happiness in vastly different situations, but the "city life" is devoid of a lot of the things that people living in the suburbs and rural areas enjoy that require having a car. People who collect things, or have a workshop in their garage, or go fishing, or hunting, or real hiking, or any outdoor activity really, or who have children (especially more than one). If I lived in the city, I would probably get rid of my car and just rent one when I needed it. But I just don't really want to live in the city because none of the stuff I enjoy most is there.
- wing-_-nuts 4y ago
  If I could shape the world to my liking, we'd look a lot more like the neatherlands with mixed-use development, great public transit and protected bike / ped infrastructure. Even with all that goodness, roughly half the population in the neatherlands owns a car, despite how outrageously expensive it can be there. There are still great reasons to own a car, and frankly I think everyone's experience would be better if walking, biking, and public transit were safe and viable. That could get so much traffic off the road. It would make driving much more pleasant. Owning a car should be a 'nice to have' and not a 'need'.
  - fragmede 4y ago
    A congestion charge would also help get cars off the road, while allowing people too continue owning cars.
fragmede 4y ago
We don't (and probably never will be able to) have to remove anything, we "just" have to densify downtown districts to have jobs, shops, and housing within convenient public transportation distance, so people can exist without cars.
Semaphor 4y ago
Another aging millennial. I don't, and never have owned a car. But luckily, I don't only live in a German city with good public transport, but also in the city center. I hate driving, during COVID, I rented a car 2 times to visit my parents for Christmas, but I far prefer being able to take the train. Just the ability to read during the trip makes all the difference for me. Or for a longer trip, to sleep ;)
Haga 4y ago
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toss1 4y ago
I've lived in the city, in the suburbs, and in the country. Absolutely no question, living in the city (in this case, Manhattan/NYC), a car is a liability. Parking was either insanely expensive or a game of musical chairs 2X per week as the no parking times for the streetsweepers come up (and that was decades ago). But anywhere else, the car is basically a necessity. Doesn't have to be fancy, but it does have to be. I keep looking at electric motorcycles/scooters for a relatively short commute, but not keen on the hazards (and I'm not risk averse; I've had sportscar racing licenses & experience, rock climbing, etc., but when surgeons I know call motorcycles "donor-cycles", I take the hint). What is sad is that only rarely is driving fun anymore. A long drive in the country on a nice day was a real joy, but there's just too much traffic now...
Salgat 4y ago
As a former chicago resident who lived near a station, that wasn't my experience. In the time it took to walk down to the station and wait to get onto a train, I could already be at most restaurants and stores if I used a car in the suburbs. Also groceries became a huge ordeal. There's a lot of time overhead with public transit and unfortunately subways attract a lot of sketchy beggars and rude folk.
- wizofaus 4y ago
  If you're somebody who's happy to stay based in a low density suburban area for all your daily needs (i.e. no regular travel to a downtown/ inner urban area) then I'd agree, it's pretty hard to see the advantages of forms of transport other than a car, particularly if you don't find walking a meaningful/enjoyable form of exercise. But obviously not everyone fits into that category, yet still live in cities that are largely built on the assumption you'll travel everywhere by car despite the disadvantages.
- earthling8118 4y ago
  I would pay any amount of money or spend any amount of time to not have to deal with a car in Chicago ever again. Traffic, parking, and inflexibility to just hop on a train or bus are killer.
  - Salgat 4y ago
    A car in Chicago is hell (at my first apartment it was first come first serve parking on the side of the road, the second required a valet which was also annoying), and mass transit was also a pain in the ass, and that's saying a lot since Chicago has an excellent mass transit system.
earthling8118 4y ago
I don't think we'll have a choice on whether or not to remove car dependence in our infrastructure. They are just outright not affordable on the scale that we are using them to. We were able to keep it up this long but I have no expectation that it will be able to continue how it has. And the result of that combined with the complete dependence on them are going to make things very ugly for quite some time.
xnx 4y ago
Wait until self driving cars become the norm. Driving to destinations 8 hours away will be commonplace.
rolenthedeep 4y ago
I'm an American but I lived in Europe for a while, and it hurts me every day that we don't have public transit. When I was in Europe, my daily routine was get up, grab a donut from the corner shop connected to my flat, walk one block to the subway. If I was lucky, there would be a tram waiting at the other subway station and I could just jump on, or walk the 8 blocks to the office. When I stayed at the office late, the subway was closed but I could always take the night tram the long, long way around. It sounds complicated, but it really isn't. You buy a ticket, then you can simply walk onto any form of public transit. Subway, tram, busses, even a ferry over the river. And it cost the equivalent of $1.50 to go all the way across one of the largest cities in Europe. It's easy and pleasant, and leaves you free to read a book or work on your laptop if you really want. Meanwhile in the US, I have to maintain this car, I have to pay something like $30/week in gas and parking. I have to deal with our inadequately maintained roads that damage my car. I also have to deal daily with the incredibly high-stress situation of not letting other drivers fucking kill me. I have at minimum two close calls a week. I could take the bus here, but it turns a 20 minute commute into 2 hours. I'd take a subway and a sidewalk 100% of the time. Zero question, no hesitation. It's simply superior in all ways.

wkat4242 4y ago

Me too. I hate the stress of driving. The busy traffic, all the mistakes you can make and be fined for, the hurry of some people. Expensive everything. I live in a city now with amazing public transport and I don't miss my car at all.

SketchySeaBeast 4y ago
It's also utterly wasted time. You can't do anything with it and you can't even zone out because you're actively driving. While walking or on a bus you can read or devote your whole attention to an audio book. You're not home, but it's still your time.
- wkat4242 4y ago
  Totally agree! It feels like I got part of my life back <3

maxsilver 4y ago

> but even then, I don't get the emotional association of freedom that previous generations did. I don't know what's different, although I have some guesses. Money, I'm sure, but there's something that's nagging me about it. I'd argue it's a combination of money and aging infrastructure. Money is the big one (cars used to be a lot cheaper, both to buy and to maintain. Incomes for most used to be much higher). Infrastructure is another, in a lot of places, they haven't meaningfully upgraded any of the public driving transportation infrastructure since the 1950s to 1970s, so a lot of infrastructure is handling car volumes 200% to 600% higher than they were ever engineered for. In Michigan, there's still very much a lot of "fun/freedom" around cars. But our population has been pretty flat this entire time (+/-2% pop change YoY since the 1960s), so even though the infrastructure is old, it's usually appropriately sized for the population in all but the newest-growth places. If you live in, say Seattle, you very much don't get that experience, public vehicle transit infrastructure has not kept up at all, and so driving is artificially a lot more of a painful burden there.

anovikov 4y ago
Well but this is simply not the case. Cars did not get more expensive in the last 30-40 years vs CPI and much more accessible vs median let alone average income. They also last a lot longer so used cars are much more of an option than they were 30 let alone 60 years ago.
- maxsilver 4y ago
  > Cars did not get more expensive in the last 30-40 years vs CPI and much more accessible vs median let alone average income. This is objectively false, cars absolutely did get more expensive in the last 30 years, they cost about double what they did in 1990, even after accounting for inflation. (see https://thesoundingline.com/since-1990-the-price-of-a-cheap-car-has-risen-380-cpi-says-its-only-risen-17/ https://thesoundingline.com/since-1990-the-price-of-a-cheap-... as just one example of the math on that). They may "last longer", sure, but that can itself also carry negative impacts (particularly on fuel economy, safety, and air pollution)
  - deleted 4y ago

bamboozled 4y ago

the maintenance, the ongoing cost of fuel and insurance, all of it. Not sure if rich people worry about this, which is what the article is about, rich people. Agree wit everything else you said though.

oftitogf 4y ago
It's not about rich people, it's about people at all levels of wealth in the developed world. Rich relative to the world's poorest, but not the 1% who don't worry about the costs of owning a car.
- mercutio2 4y ago
  In the US, no one in the top 40% has to worry about the costs of car ownership. The richest 1% of Americans are much richer than worrying about the costs of cars, certainly, but the median American income is just very high relative to the cost of car ownership.

ghaff 4y ago

I think a lot of younger people who choose to live in a city, especially new grads, are essentially continuing their college experience. A lot of friends probably live in the city too. They can often bum transportation/do joint activities from friends who do own cars and are mostly fine with minimizing out of city activities that require a car. They also restrict themselves to jobs they can easily get to. Which in tech was basically impossible in, say, Boston 25 years ago. A friend of mine made the observation that people mostly just don't do optional activities if they're hard or expensive to do. So if you live carless in a city with decent public transit, you mostly restrict your recreational activities and people you get together with to what's convenient and tend not to do things that require renting a car on a Friday night and returning it Sunday or Monday.

nradov 4y ago
Wow. That seems such a sad and limiting way to live your life. I love how I can use my cars to go anywhere at any time without depending on anyone else. And my family and I do a lot of optional activities. Different perspective, I guess.
- BeFlatXIII 4y ago
  Depends on the options available in your city. It's like the arguments against piracy based on the fear that no one will make books or movies ever again. Even if true, the existing stock has far more than anyone can enjoy in a single lifetime.
- brmgb 4y ago
  > Wow. That seems such a sad and limiting way to live your life. Mostly true in my experience. I used to get away a lot more when I had a car and could just decide to hit the road whenever I wanted than I do now that I either have to rent or plan earlier and buy train tickets. It's purely friction linked by the way. I could still do all the things I did and it would actually cost me less money in the end. I just don't.
  - hunter2_ 4y ago

vidarh 4y ago

I'm 47, and have never bothered getting a drivers license because I've always lived places where the combination of public transport with fallback to taxis has been good enough. Add on Uber and equivalent, and my need for cars is lower than ever. If I'd lived somewhere a car was needed, I'd have learned. It's not an ideological opposition to cars by any means. Occasionally I consider getting a drivers license, and then forget about it, because it's just never felt worth the hassle. Like you I've just never felt that emotional association with freedom from a car. I think an essential aspect of that was growing up somewhere where I felt I had the same options without one.

kevinali1 4y ago
While I totally agree with this, I think you should still get a drivers license. There's always a very real possibility that you may need to drive a car in some sort of emergency.
- yesenadam 4y ago
  > I think you should still get a drivers license Or learn to drive, at least. I don't think lack of a licence would stop you driving in a real emergency.
  - hunter2_ 4y ago
    This might depend on location. For me, maintaining a license works out to a few USD/yr so you might as well do it if only for emergencies, to avoid a citation in an emergency (though I'll admit it's far-fetched for that to occur). In a place where licensing is expensive, I'd agree with your take.
  - SketchySeaBeast 4y ago
    Probably get a license though. A real emergency is when you're most likely to make mistakes behind the wheel and you're going to be in a lot of trouble if you get in an unlicensed accident.
- vidarh 4y ago

Earw0rm 4y ago

Yep.. something about setting out in to the unknown, a battered paper map as your guide, and the combination of surprise and lack of accountability (doesn't perfectly describe what I mean, but I can't find a better word) you'd get in return. It was possible to do that before cars, but mass car ownership & a modern road network made it something the average consumer could do semi-routinely, instead of something that required more spare time & energy than people had day to day. When you know not only what businesses, facilities etc. you'll find in the town 50km away, but have a fair idea of what they're like (google reviews..), the world is so much a smaller place than it was even up until the mid 1990s. And with social media, you're no more or less a stranger in your own town than anywhere else.

foobarian 4y ago
Street view is the last nail in the coffin, why drive when you can just take a peek from your computer. On the flip side, it's a fun activity to do with my kid. Pick a random country, "drive around" on SV to see what it's like there. I'm sure we lose something from the watered down interaction though. Walking into a faraway bar or diner and chatting up the locals is much more enriching.
earthling8118 4y ago
Yet now, to me, public transit is the way to venture out into that unknown. Finding out a cool new place along a route you use, or even trying out a new route and seeing what it gets you. That's been super enjoyable. With cars I only have time to go to things that I already know about. I can't look around well enough while paying attention to the road. If I'm on a bus I can see something cool and hop off and go check it out
- Earw0rm 4y ago
  Same with bikes. You're present in the space in a way you just can't be in a car. Not as quick of course, but enough to cover a meaningful amount of ground across the city while still being able to interact as if you were on foot, more or less. Long distance trains too, for the serendipity of random conversation.

rr808 4y ago

I think flying is so cheap and ubiquitous now it makes a big difference. 30-40 years ago if you wanted to go away for vacation you probably drove, where now people often fly several times a year.

secretsatan 4y ago

I haven't owned a car for at least 15 years since I moved to Switzerland, don't miss it at all. I do occasionally need a car, so I'm a member of a car sharing scheme, they always have cars nearby, I pay a low yearly feee and a low rate per time and kms used, easy to book with an app, probably cost me the same for a year as a parking space for a month. For an occasional weekend away I might get a car from a regular hire company as they workout cheaper for longer distance. I suppose I never drove that much before in the UK, never really had to commute as I always try and live within walking distance to work, although I would sometimes drive if it was bad weather, but that was because public transport wasn't really an option for that, the buses were frequently backed up in the rush hour traffic and all would arrive at once instead of being evenly staggered, meaning long waits in the rain where it would have been quicker to walk anyway.

detourdog 4y ago
I have an 8-unit apartment building in small New England town. I'm seriously considering getting a car as a building amenity. The car would be reserved and shared amongst the tenants.
- dublinben 4y ago
  You might be able to just partner with one of the existing providers in this space, like Zipcar, and let them handle the logistics: https://www.zipcar.com/business/residential https://www.zipcar.com/business/residential
  - detourdog 4y ago
    I have reached out to manufacturers that offer the ability to pay a fixed amount for access to cars. Last I checked they were all individual focused products. Zipcar could work but I find the more relationships I have the more paperwork. I would control all aspects and simply add it to the keycard for tracking. If I introduce a third party it removes human judgement from the individuals involved in the relationship. I have no interest outsourcing my relationships to corporations lawyers to the extent possible. It definitely will make sense for some people but I happen to be a lunatic. They are addressing a large scale building. I will only have 8 people and can get as many cars as 8 people are willing to pay for.

oweiler 4y ago

I detest my car. Not only is it generally more expensive than public transport, you always have to set aside money to replace or fix broken parts. Regularly driving to the oil station sucks. Traffic jams, which are more and more commonplace, sucks.

nradov 4y ago
I love my car. Not only is it faster and more convenient than public transport, it is highly reliable and not subject to union strikes. All of the maintenance is quick and cheap. There are multiple fuel stations nearby. Traffic jams do suck, but adaptive cruise control makes them suck a lot less.
- sagarm 4y ago
  > traffic jams do suck Or put more succinctly, you agree cars suck. Some of us just go one car further.
  - nradov 4y ago
    I don't agree at all. Cars are awesome! Reliable, fast personal mobility is a huge step forward in quality of life.
    - sagarm 4y ago
      traffic is what we call it when cars get together to have a good time

LoveMortuus 4y ago

I'm also a millennial and while I don't like having to pay for maintenance and fuel, driving around the country side has been one of the best spent time. I love the views and the silence*, the feel of the road and the discovery of unknown views. I don't have a lot of money, some might even say that I don't have money. I drive a Citroen Saxo 1.0 year 2000 in the golden colour and the incredible sense of freedom it gives me is strong enough where I don't care how much a car costs ( It cost 350€), I don't care for luxury, I mean my radio stopped working about three years ago. I still remember my father telling me many years ago, not being able to drive is like not being able to read or write, you're basically illiterate, and to some extent I have to agree. Having a car gives me the same feeling of freedom that I've felt when I was able to walk again after getting my legs messed up.

thesuitonym 4y ago

>I don't get the emotional association of freedom that previous generations did. Previous generations would just go out for a ride, take the car out on Sunday and and enjoy the scenery. We just don't do that anymore, either because we're more concerned about the environmental effects of driving, or that we just have more interesting things to do. Not to mention, when this idea of "the freedom of a car" came about, even many smaller cities still had decent transit systems, and were denser. A car truly was freedom, because you could choose to walk downtown, or take the car, or go to the next city over because they have a really nice cafe that you like. Nowadays if you want to go anywhere, unless you're lucky enough to live in a dense city with good transit, there's no choice. It's not freedom anymore, it's a sentence.

synthpop 4y ago
It's ironic that as a result of previous generations of the USA being so terminally car-pilled, the "scenery" of most American towns/destinations have slowly transformed into bland, ugly parking lots as far as the eye can see.
- noobermin 4y ago
  Of course, the generations that did this will deny they had any hand in it, and suck it up to their children (you know, the ones they raised apparently) are lazy, sheltered (by who I wonder), etc etc.
jtr1 4y ago
> Previous generations would just go out for a ride, take the car out on Sunday and and enjoy the scenery. We just don't do that anymore, either because we're more concerned about the environmental effects of driving, or that we just have more interesting things to do. I'm also an older millennial and like GP have no emotional attachment to cars. I also mildly resent my dependence on them, having traveled in places with fantastic public transport. I find them lonely and isolating. I agree about the enviromental cost and other forms of entertainment. I think most of the rest can be explained by the combination of novelty + nostalgia for previous generations. Older Boomers caught the upswing out the highway act when there were new roads everywhere and an explosion of innovation in car design. The country wasn't yet totally built to enforce car ownership via sprawl, so I imagine a nice afternoon drive in the country was a thing many people enjoyed and created fond memories around.

readingnews 4y ago

Hrm, I guess I _am_ getting older. Now that I think about it, I have owned a car for about 35 years. When I got the first one, used, it was $500. Insurance was high, but not insane like today (my children do not drive, as I can not afford the insurance). I recall that back then (we had BBSs, FIDOnet and USENET groups) it was still an item that gave you freedom. You needed it to visit people or go to the cafe which was far away. I think as time progresses, I have truly learned to dislike my car(s). Insurance where I am is out of control (one of the highest in the nation), a new car is so far out of reach it is not funny, and used ones cost far more than the last new car I purchased. I think as others have noted, there may be a number of factors leading to people not wanting them... A few young people I know do not have cars, when asked the reasons are typically money (biggest one) and pure need / desire. I think when we were young it was as symbol of freedom. I think now it is (rightfully so) either a status symbol to some, or a ball and chain that costs money just sitting in your driveway (maintenance, depreciation, insurance).

lamontcg 4y ago
I'm from the same BBS/Usenet era and I used to be heavily into cars, now I can't imagine spending >$30k on a massively depreciating asset. I also hate how cars have become massive steel tanks on wheels.

usrusr 4y ago

It really is a "the grass is bleaker on the other side" situation. As a public transport person I feel weirdly constrained by the idea that a day's itinerary will inevitably have to see me return to wherever the car is parked, impossible to do spontaneous things like walk a few stops, ride with an acquaintance or something like that that would eventually take me home, but not return to some previous stage. With a car, everything that happens outside the car is inevitably out-and-back. A car person will never miss that little freedom because they don't know it and objectively it's truly not that big an issue. But if you are not used to the pattern of always returning to wherever you parked it can feel surprisingly limiting. Similar things apply in the reverse, to a public transport person it's just natural to mentally map out a city's topology in units of line changes required, but a car person will feel outrageously constrained.

CalRobert 4y ago
True freedom is a folding bike! Ride to point a, take your Brompton with you on the train to point B, ride to point c, etc.
- eastbound 4y ago
  True freedom is city bikes. Go anywhere worry-free, empty handed, come back using a simple card. 35€ per year in Lyon, France. Unplanned arrival at 1am in the wrong train station? A bike is still waiting for you. Drawbacks: It’s only free for 30 minutes per trip; Sometimes you still get the bike stolen for 150€.
  - thehappypm 4y ago
    Sadly cold climate areas struggle with making this a reality. Boston has a big network of these bikes and ridership is huge in the warmer months, but drops off a cliff when it gets cold and icy. I know areas in Europe achieve this, but Copenhagen is warmer and less snowy than Boston.
    - Xylakant 4y ago

ajmurmann 4y ago

I bought a brand new Kia Soul for $20k and am very happy with it. I greatly enjoy driving twisty rural roads, especially in Europe where speed limits don't change for every curve. However, I dislike driving in urban areas where it's all about avoiding an accident and looking out for other drivers doing stupid stuff. Even worse if I'm driving somewhere new and have to navigate at the same time. So stressful! What I really dislike though is living in a place that's made for cars. I miss walking to a grocery store to pick up a few things, walking to a friend's to hang out or just walking to a bar or restaurant to meet up. I've lived in the American suburbs now (mostly due to affordability) and hasn't had that experience in a long time. However, I recently had to do a unusual trip to a city in Germany near where I grew up and stayed at a downtown hotel. I mentioned to a friend that I was there and he texted me that he and his girlfriend happened to be having dinner in a restaurant not far away. Just being able to walk over and sit outside on a street filled with other diners, playing children and some guy playing piano was incredible. I'm not sure if this is all due to car centricity or other circumstances like having childhood friends in that city, it was a beautiful summer day, I was going through a tough emergency and seeing friends is extra nice then. However, given all the caveats I don't think I'd headed over to meet them if I had needed to get into a car, find parking etc since it was very short notice and I didn't know if I had 10 minutes or 3 hours till I had to go back to the emergency situation. What I do know is that I do badly want more of that all the time!

stcroixx 4y ago

You live somewhere that requires a car and you have a car, so yeah, there's no association of car=freedom for you. That is for people who live in the same place as you but don't have a car. When they get one, it's 'ah, freedom'. You could experience this too if you tried to live your normal life without your car.

pookha 4y ago

I felt like I was going to get murdered by some guy wigging out in NYCs subways. And I'm attuned to sketchy situations thanks to my youth and there was a menacing vibe even without the nutter. And the bus? God no. I rode the city bus as a kid. Guy was dealing drugs in the back, gangs would abuse and bully a gay dude like every day...it was a show. Thank god for the freedom, safety and flexibility my personal vehicle provides.

asciimov 4y ago

As an aging millennial that grew up in West Texas, I have the exact opposite feelings. To me cars, equal freedom. I grew up in a small neighborhood, I rode bikes to my friends houses there but my neighborhood was so far removed from other places and stores that there was no other place to go. Getting my license at 16 opened so many doors for me. Now I could go hang out at my other friends houses that lived 10-15 miles away from me. I could get a job, go to the store and movies, and just cruse around without having my parents question me. I didn't have a cell phone back then, so being able to leave and not be contacted was glorious. For college I moved out to the Texas Panhandle. When gas was cheap I'd often go out for long drives into the country with friends, to talk, so explore and see what was out there, to visit family, and to make beer runs because our city was dry meaning you had to go out of town to buy a six pack. When I have had extended periods of not having a vehicle I have get a visceral sense of foreboding and dread. I feel like a caged animal, unable to leave any situation, escape in case of danger. These feelings mildly lessen if public transit is available, but they are still there. Having any kind of vehicle feels like safety as I know I can flee if I need to, even if I don't.

AlphaCharlie 4y ago
Do you live in a low density area? I think your point of view aligns well with the idea that increased density and good alternative transit options lead to less need and want for cars. But rural and isolated areas can’t live without a car (or a credible alternative). As much as I’d like car to disappear, there’s a lot of use of it that we can’t replace without severely altering some of the population’s quality of life
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- asciimov 4y ago
  I'm sure many would consider where I grew up low density. It was just underdeveloped suburban section of a town of 110K people. I'm sure when everything is in walking distance, that the costs to store a vehicle becomes unmaintainable, and largely unneeded. But for a large swath of American's living outside of the major metros in the north, having a car is just a way of life.

stuckinhell 4y ago

I'm an aging millennial as well. I love having a car! I can't imagine not having a car when you have KIDS! Driving them to their various sports games, with a car full of their equipment. Going camping with them. Getting groceries for a family of 5. I can't imagine doing that on public transport.

t0bia_s 4y ago
Family of 5, no car, just bikes. It is possible. It just depends on where do you live and how comfortable you are.
warner25 4y ago
I think we can recognize the tremendous utility of something without having an emotional connection like love for it. I agree that I can't imagine not having a car with my four little kids. I also can't imagine not having laundry machines with four little kids, but I don't love my laundry machines; I'm not passionate about them. If you swapped them out with different but reasonably equivalent machines, I wouldn't even blink. Edited to add: And when I don't have four little kids anymore, I'd be happy to live car-free in a walkable city or use a laundry service.
- stuckinhell 4y ago
  I chose the word Love and I meant it. Humans are emotional beings first and thinking beings second (Though this maybe my day job of management leaking through). Every time I look at my car, I remember my children's "firsts", and honestly I know I'll be very sad when that car breaks down.
  - warner25 4y ago
    Fair point. My car has served me a lot longer than my laundry machines, and it indeed has many more memories connected to it. Now I'm wondering if that's unique to my car or any old object that been close to me for 15 years. I guess I have a simple backpack like that too.
4y ago

warner25 4y ago

Excellent post. My car is a Prius, at the lowest trim model, that I bought when I graduated from college 15 years ago. I "love it" in the sense that I love how cheap and reliable it has been. I totally view it as an appliance to get me from A to B with minimal fuss. And for the past ten years, my wife and I have largely organized our life to minimize how much time we spend driving around. We've spent a good portion of our marriage sharing the Prius as our only car. My Boomer parents, on the other hand, own five or six cars, including several Corvettes and still go on long drives just for fun. We just can't understand each other. I also live in a place now that has a "car culture," like people come to visit for races and car shows, and to do scenic drives in their exotic Ferrari and Lamborghini sports cars. To a first approximation, it's all Boomers.

01100011 4y ago

I'm an aging gen x'er. I would feel the same way if American cities were safer, more polite, and more pleasant to live in. I visited Tokyo a few decades ago and was amazed at what life could be like. Unfortunately, the issues of modern American cities compel me to seek life in the suburbs or rural areas, necessitating a single passenger vehicle.

codexb 4y ago

I can accept that people can find happiness in vastly different situations, but the "city life" is devoid of a lot of the things that people living in the suburbs and rural areas enjoy that require having a car. People who collect things, or have a workshop in their garage, or go fishing, or hunting, or real hiking, or any outdoor activity really, or who have children (especially more than one). If I lived in the city, I would probably get rid of my car and just rent one when I needed it. But I just don't really want to live in the city because none of the stuff I enjoy most is there.

wing-_-nuts 4y ago
If I could shape the world to my liking, we'd look a lot more like the neatherlands with mixed-use development, great public transit and protected bike / ped infrastructure. Even with all that goodness, roughly half the population in the neatherlands owns a car, despite how outrageously expensive it can be there. There are still great reasons to own a car, and frankly I think everyone's experience would be better if walking, biking, and public transit were safe and viable. That could get so much traffic off the road. It would make driving much more pleasant. Owning a car should be a 'nice to have' and not a 'need'.
- fragmede 4y ago
  A congestion charge would also help get cars off the road, while allowing people too continue owning cars.

fragmede 4y ago

We don't (and probably never will be able to) have to remove anything, we "just" have to densify downtown districts to have jobs, shops, and housing within convenient public transportation distance, so people can exist without cars.

Semaphor 4y ago

Another aging millennial. I don't, and never have owned a car. But luckily, I don't only live in a German city with good public transport, but also in the city center. I hate driving, during COVID, I rented a car 2 times to visit my parents for Christmas, but I far prefer being able to take the train. Just the ability to read during the trip makes all the difference for me. Or for a longer trip, to sleep ;)

Haga 4y ago

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toss1 4y ago

I've lived in the city, in the suburbs, and in the country. Absolutely no question, living in the city (in this case, Manhattan/NYC), a car is a liability. Parking was either insanely expensive or a game of musical chairs 2X per week as the no parking times for the streetsweepers come up (and that was decades ago). But anywhere else, the car is basically a necessity. Doesn't have to be fancy, but it does have to be. I keep looking at electric motorcycles/scooters for a relatively short commute, but not keen on the hazards (and I'm not risk averse; I've had sportscar racing licenses & experience, rock climbing, etc., but when surgeons I know call motorcycles "donor-cycles", I take the hint). What is sad is that only rarely is driving fun anymore. A long drive in the country on a nice day was a real joy, but there's just too much traffic now...

Salgat 4y ago

As a former chicago resident who lived near a station, that wasn't my experience. In the time it took to walk down to the station and wait to get onto a train, I could already be at most restaurants and stores if I used a car in the suburbs. Also groceries became a huge ordeal. There's a lot of time overhead with public transit and unfortunately subways attract a lot of sketchy beggars and rude folk.

wizofaus 4y ago
If you're somebody who's happy to stay based in a low density suburban area for all your daily needs (i.e. no regular travel to a downtown/ inner urban area) then I'd agree, it's pretty hard to see the advantages of forms of transport other than a car, particularly if you don't find walking a meaningful/enjoyable form of exercise. But obviously not everyone fits into that category, yet still live in cities that are largely built on the assumption you'll travel everywhere by car despite the disadvantages.
earthling8118 4y ago
I would pay any amount of money or spend any amount of time to not have to deal with a car in Chicago ever again. Traffic, parking, and inflexibility to just hop on a train or bus are killer.
- Salgat 4y ago
  A car in Chicago is hell (at my first apartment it was first come first serve parking on the side of the road, the second required a valet which was also annoying), and mass transit was also a pain in the ass, and that's saying a lot since Chicago has an excellent mass transit system.

earthling8118 4y ago

I don't think we'll have a choice on whether or not to remove car dependence in our infrastructure. They are just outright not affordable on the scale that we are using them to. We were able to keep it up this long but I have no expectation that it will be able to continue how it has. And the result of that combined with the complete dependence on them are going to make things very ugly for quite some time.

xnx 4y ago

Wait until self driving cars become the norm. Driving to destinations 8 hours away will be commonplace.

rolenthedeep 4y ago

I'm an American but I lived in Europe for a while, and it hurts me every day that we don't have public transit. When I was in Europe, my daily routine was get up, grab a donut from the corner shop connected to my flat, walk one block to the subway. If I was lucky, there would be a tram waiting at the other subway station and I could just jump on, or walk the 8 blocks to the office. When I stayed at the office late, the subway was closed but I could always take the night tram the long, long way around. It sounds complicated, but it really isn't. You buy a ticket, then you can simply walk onto any form of public transit. Subway, tram, busses, even a ferry over the river. And it cost the equivalent of $1.50 to go all the way across one of the largest cities in Europe. It's easy and pleasant, and leaves you free to read a book or work on your laptop if you really want. Meanwhile in the US, I have to maintain this car, I have to pay something like $30/week in gas and parking. I have to deal with our inadequately maintained roads that damage my car. I also have to deal daily with the incredibly high-stress situation of not letting other drivers fucking kill me. I have at minimum two close calls a week. I could take the bus here, but it turns a 20 minute commute into 2 hours. I'd take a subway and a sidewalk 100% of the time. Zero question, no hesitation. It's simply superior in all ways.