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Microsoft to support Windows 11 on M1 and M2 Macs through Parallels partnership
- zone411 4y agoDoes anyone have experience running Visual Studio (not VSCode) in Parallels? I'd like to update my older MacBook Pro with Boot Camp but I'm not leaving Windows Visual Studio for a poor native Mac version.
- gjsman-1000 4y agoThe Parallels desktop experience is shockingly well-accelerated. I played 1440p video from YouTube in a Microsoft Edge window (not in full-screen though) and didn't notice any appearance of dropped frames. Animations in Windows are smoother than they are on my 8th Gen Core i3 desktop. As for full-blown Visual Studio, there is an ARM version now with most (but not all) workloads available. YMMV if you rely on those unavailable workloads or if you have x86/x64 DLLs in your project, but this has improved substantially I believe with Windows 11 ARM now supporting 64-bit/x64 translation (whereas Windows 10 ARM only supported 32-bit/x86 officially outside of Insider previews).
- babypuncher 4y agoAssuming you're doing .NET development, have you looked at JetBrains Rider? I haven't spent much time with it myself but a lot of my colleagues swear by it even on Windows.
- quaffapint 4y agoThis. We use Rider daily on our M1s. I used to be a big fan of Visual Studio, but really loving Rider and it works as great on the Mac as it does Windows (assuming you're not working with legacy NET Framework). The only bugs we ever really run into is around Docker on the M1s, but with the current releases everything is working fine.
- kitsunesoba 4y agoDo you know where support for WinUI 3 is with Rider? Been working on a little Windows utility in C#/WinUI, and VS2022 is… meh. It works but it doesn't jive with my brain as well as Xcode or something IntelliJ-based does, probably because my background has zero MS platform dev in it.
- bigtex 4y agoRider on Mac is head and shoulders above VS for Windows, and the speed is addictive on the M1 Macs.
- babypuncher 4y agoVisual Studio proper has gotten considerably faster with VS2022, though I doubt it compares to anything running natively on Apple Silicon.
- philliphaydon 4y agoI have to use VS2022 for legacy projects. People say it’s faster. It’s not. Compared to Rider it’s like being on dialup again.
- Sakos 4y agoParallels performance is really good. I haven't used VS specifically but it'll only choke if I'm trying demanding games. It's quite impressive.
- bigtex 4y agoI use VS 2019 in Parallels with SSRS/SSIS and .Net Framework projects with little issues. I did have a problem with IIS Express breaking after each Windows update (fixed by uninstalled it and downloading the most recent from Msft) but that seems to have fixed. Now that Rider has an ARM build I use that for my 1 remaining .Net Framework project and it works fine.
- danjc 4y agoSibling comments here don't square with my experience running VS2022 under Parallels on M1 MacBook Pro. I found it unusably slow for regular work and ended up moving back to a Dell laptop. This was a year back so perhaps things have changed, curious to know if anything has changed.
- sgjohnson 4y agoThe Mac version of Visual Studio isn't even Visual Studio. It's a glorified MonoDevelop.
- mvac 4y agoTechnically you can use any Windows 11 licence key (or even Win 10) to activate Windows 11 Arm in Parallels. Have been using it since last december and so far it has been much better experience than with any Windows PC...
- nwatson 4y agoI used a Windows 7 or 8 license left over from an old MSDN subscription to activate Windows 11 on UTM/macOS successfully.
- mvac 4y agoDo you find UTM to be “good enough” or lacking certain features? Tbh I find it quite amusing that Windows license costs less (in the EU) than Parallels for year.
- tony69 4y agoWhat do you use windows arm for? The Windows-only software I use only works on x86 Windows. Obviously it’s subjective, but my god, windows is so bad.
- mvac 4y agoI switched to Mac, but still sometimes need the full Visual Studio for work. VS for Mac is a joke and I don’t believe that even its developers use it.
- lostmsu 4y agoThrough Parallels.
- jmclnx 4y agoThis is good new to people I know at work, for me since at work I use Linux it is a non-issue. People on MACs need to have 1 proprietary application that is only partially works on MACs (& Linux). So that will make the MAC people happy. On Linux I have a Windows VM in case I need to use that feature.
- robertoandred 4y agoMedia Access Control?
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- Toutouxc 4y agoUsually writing Macs as MACs is almost a shibboleth among people who have very strong negative feelings towards the platform for some reason. (MAC’s is the ultimate misspelling) So it’s interesting to see a person who’s apparently neutral write it that way.
- 9dev 4y agoUsed in that way, I hate it almost as much as people writing Micro$oft and similar. It just feels so darn childish, it makes me dismiss their opinion altogether.
- layer8 4y agoMisguided Acronym Concoction
- xnx 4y agoStill an ARM version. It's a real shame it's impossible to run x86-64 Windows 10 via Bootcamp on M1/M2. I'm suspicious that the compatibility and performance of ARM Windows on Parallels is good enough to use full time. All other laptop hardware I've used is frustratingly crappy compared to MacBooks.
- jborean93 4y agoIt's an ARM CPU, why would it run x86-64 natively through Bootcamp?
- zsims 4y agoYou're worried about performance but want x86 emulation on ARM?
- lwkl 4y agox86 software runs fine on Windows for ARM nowadays. I've been using it on Parallels for the last year and it has been working great (I don't do any high performance stuff on Windows though).
- dividedbyzero 4y agoCould that also work for to old-ish software, like a decade old or so, or does this require applications to be optimized or compiled for it? And is this something Parallels is required for or could one test that without buying Parallels?
- zamadatix 4y agoThe Windows x86 -> Windows ARM works with any 32 or 64 bit apps unmodified and is a part of Windows itself. It's basically the Windows version of Rosetta 2. I use it to run an ancient Windows app on my work M1 MacBook. Parallels comes into play if you want your Windows VM to have GPU acceleration. If you don't care about that you can just use UTM for free to run the Windows ARM VM on your M1/M2 MacBook.
- 4y ago
- crazygringo 4y agoGenuinely wonder what took this long. Was it a new decision around legal/strategy, just a low priority, or something technical that wasn't built by Parallels/Microsoft till now?
- radlad 4y agoI am confused because I have been using Windows 11 through Parallels for probably 6 months. Parallels automatically downloaded the ISO for me and everything.
- zamadatix 4y agoYou were technically breaking the Windows 11 EULA and not officially supported while doing that but nobody really cared.
- lwkl 4y agoThe rumor is that it's because Microsoft has an exclusivity deal with Qualcomm [1]. [1]: https://www.xda-developers.com/qualcomm-exclusivity-deal-microsoft-windows-on-arm/ https://www.xda-developers.com/qualcomm-exclusivity-deal-mic...
- cat_plus_plus 4y agoMicrosoft now has to offer support for a niche use case and with host OS and virtualization app no under their control. Probably costs serious money and took a big customer interested in mass deploying the VM to commit to that.
- neogodless 4y agoFor some clarity, see https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2023/02/microsoft-officially-blesses-parallels-as-a-way-to-run-windows-on-m1-m2-macs/ https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2023/02/microsoft-officially... > These licensing problems haven't technically stopped people from running the Arm version of Windows on other hardware, including Apple Silicon Macs > Microsoft is formally blessing Parallels as a way to run the Professional and Enterprise versions of Windows 11 on Apple Silicon Macs Original source: https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/options-for-using-windows-11-with-mac-computers-with-apple-m1-and-m2-chips-cd15fd62-9b34-4b78-b0bc-121baa3c568c https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/options-for-usin... > Parallels® Desktop version 18 is an authorized solution In other words, you could (unofficially) do this before, but now it's allowed according to the terms of your license.
- jasoneckert 4y ago> Original source: https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/options-for-usin https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/options-for-usin... It looks like Parallels has the same restrictions that you'd get from running Win11 ARM inside the UTM hypervisor on M1/M2 Macs (like I currently do): No WSL/WSA and no virtualization based security or sandboxes.
- aseipp 4y agoDoes Hyper-V not support nested virtualization? Or maybe macOS doesn't support it. Because M2 chips absolutely have FEAT_NV2 so nested virt should work well; only ARM system around with it. One more win for Asahi Linux, I guess.
- viraptor 4y agoYeah, I was just looking for that one. It seems to be somehow supported in Linux (https://lwn.net/Articles/919851/ https://lwn.net/Articles/919851/) and Hyper-V does do nested virtualisation (https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/virtualization/hyper-v-on-windows/user-guide/nested-virtualization https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/virtualization/hyper-v-on-...) so... Either a delayed feature or yet another silly licensing thing.
- simongr3dal 4y agoI guess that means there's no hope that we will ever see Windows running natively on Apple Silicon.
- cecida 4y agoI'd like that. I'm a big fan of the whole design and build of the Macbook Pro, but macOS is starting to feel very dated.
- randomopining 4y agoWhat about it is dated? and is windows better?
- ntonozzi 4y agoI agree MacOS feels dated, some examples: The Windows window manager is far better than the MacOS equivalent, the UI is higher quality, more consistent and more discoverable, and PowerShell is better than zsh.
- mattgreenrocks 4y agoWhat I miss most in macOS is the raw graphics performance of Windows, even for day-to-day computing. Probably a combo of available graphics cards, drivers, and how the OS treats graphics performance. Finder is def getting a bit creaky, but I've never hit limitations using it. As for PSH: use fish and don't look back. :)
- reaperducer 4y agoPowerShell is better than zsh. brew install --cask powershell
- anemoknee 4y agoTIL, wild.
- 4y ago
- kristianp 4y agoThe original source[1] only says it's authorised through parallels, not how to do it. Will parallels soon take you to microsoft link that requires payment I wonder? [1] https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/options-for-using-windows-11-with-mac-computers-with-apple-m1-and-m2-chips-cd15fd62-9b34-4b78-b0bc-121baa3c568c https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/options-for-usin...
- gjsman-1000 4y agoParallels now automatically downloads Windows 11 and sets it up for you (including skipping Microsoft account), just tried today. However, it is not an activated Windows install, and it will take you to the Store asking you to purchase a Windows 11 Pro license for $199, but you can use it unactivated with the typical non-activated Windows restrictions. According to internet commentators, Windows 11 Pro x86/x64 retail keys are now acceptable whereas they previously were not, so if you have any of those lying around (or a Windows 10, or 8.1, or 7 Pro key as they are often grandfathered-in), they'll do the trick. Which, if you are buying Windows for this purpose, I'd strongly recommend just buying a retail package. If you buy in the Microsoft Store, it will be tied to your Microsoft Account which isn't really desirable, as retail keys are transferrable between computers [1] whereas OEM keys and MSA-purchased keys aren't. [1] Many people don't know this - don't buy the OEM version of Windows for $20 cheaper. It will be tied to your unique hardware - but retail keys won't. Upgrade your workstation three years from now? If you have a retail key, you can wipe Windows from your old PC and activate on the new one, completely within the license, with no need to purchase again.
- kiwijamo 4y agoMy Windows key is tied to my Microsoft account and it's survived several changes of computers. Interesting that this is not the case for those keys purchased thu the store. TIL.
- gjsman-1000 4y agoI mean, the MSA-purchased version is a retail key, but it doesn't give you a unique activation key and seems to use a generic one (at least when doing upgrades), so... trying to move this "retail" copy is really, really hard and inconsistent compared to a version you have a key for. https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/forum/all/transfer-windows-11-pro-product-key-to-new-laptop/9ce5db0a-aa55-4ccd-93a4-bb59968cb971 https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/forum/all/transf... https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/forum/all/transfer-windows-1011-pro-digital-license-to-a-new/d1b458e1-6859-4720-9d23-2adf4aede644 https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/forum/all/transf... So, I will admit that it is possible. It's just really hit-or-miss and complicated, which can easily be avoided by just buying a retail package from somewhere with a code inside.
- mattcantstop 4y agoI am at a weird spot right now, where I have teenagers who want to play games that are on Windows, but am not wanting to do that through emulation like Parallels. But I am also not willing to purchase a Windows machine as my primary machine. So it leaves me not moving to Apple Silicon and just keeping my old Mac despite wanting to upgrade.
- cloudking 4y agoHave you looked at GeForce Now as an option?
- manmal 4y agoSome games work great through Parallels, like Left4Dead 2. Others work via CrossOver. But support is not that broad unfortunately. I hope things improve vastly once Asahi Linux can run Proton - Valve has added Linux support to so many games already (for the Steam Deck).
- ozarker 4y agoARM support will be a hurdle for those games even with proton.
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- jraph 4y agowine, on macOS or on a linux dual boot on your current Mac (with Proton), maybe?
- zamadatix 4y agoYeah the hardware is fantastic but ARM->x86, Windows->Mac (or virtualization), and OpenGL/DirectX/Vulkan -> Metal is just too many translation layers to give a quality or reliable experience unless you cherry pick titles. Not to mention you run into a lot of DRMs that don't work because they assume a x86 Windows kernel to interact with. Of course if you're alternative is to remain on your current Mac then you could just as well upgrade to the new one anyways and leave the old one dedicated towards Windows based gaming.
- elforce002 4y agoWhy would I do that? This is an honest question. I recently bought a Mac Mini coming from MSFT and I don't miss windows at all. I don't have to fight with it anymore when programming and testing things.
- zuhsetaqi 4y agoTesting cross platform developed apps would be an other reason
- jan_Inkepa 4y agosome software is windows only, especially most games (if not by number, then by feeling if you're in the pc gaming world).
- stuart78 4y agoThere are plenty of apps or features that remain Windows exclusive. In Microsoft's office suite, things like PowerBI only offer Windows desktop apps. And even within apps like Powerpoint there are features that don't exist in the Mac version (like grids). There are certainly equivalent or better alternatives to both of these examples available on Mac, but if your company uses these products Parallels could be a better alternative to having a second PC.
- zerocrates 4y agoI haven't really loved Mac OS in a while, so I could see you could want the very nice Mac hardware but a different operating system. I never really did Windows-on-Mac much, besides some very occasional Boot Camp usage, but I did run Linux on a couple different Mac laptops for several years. I don't think it really makes much sense now though... no particularly good reason not to just get a Dell XPS or something in that ballpark for your Linux or Windows needs and avoid the hassle. The sheer absurdity of running Linux tools on WSL inside Parallels inside a Mac host might be worth something, too. (Or actually, can you even do that, with two levels of virtualization? I seem to remember this is an issue, maybe specifically on the new ARM chips.)
- dustedcodes 4y agoIt’s not for you, it’s a way for Microsoft employees and Windows fanboys finally being officially able to buy good hardware and run Windows on it. I can’t imagine how awful it must be for all those Windows bros to see everyone else work on amazing M2 hardware whilst they are trodding behind on the shit show that the entire Surface brand is.
- olliej 4y ago"apple has shown no signs of supporting bootcamp" By what measure? Is the verge expecting x86 windows?
- Tsiklon 4y agoI believe the Verge and others are hopeful for a resurrection of the bootcamp application to support natively running ARM Windows on ARM Mac hardware. Much in the same way as they did when they sold Intel Mac hardware
- olliej 4y agoYou can install other OSs, as the asahi folk have shown - and they’re not a massively profitable corporation with billions of dollars of cash
- steve_adams_86 4y agoI'm not relevant as a potential customer, but what I'd really like is Direct X 12 support so I could play various games in Parallels. Unfortunately I can't see that happening in a way that yields a worthwhile user experience any time soon. I'm not a huge gamer but I feel like I might actually need to buy a Windows PC to play several games at some point. The list is growing. Right now I'd love to play HiFi Rush, but there's no possible way on an M1 Mac at the moment.
- Miraste 4y agoEvery year Apple talks about their commitment to gaming, and every year macOS gaming gets worse. It was never in great shape, but switching to Metal, dropping 32-bit support, and launching Apple Silicon killed it deader than a doornail. Then there was the whole Epic debacle, and the Xbox/game streaming apps debacle, and the (multiple) Nvidia debacles... The benefits of those choices usually outweigh the loss, but they mean there will never be significant games on Macs again. I expect killing their relationships with every game company in the world will make their VR headset efforts rather painful.
- fooker 4y ago>will make their VR headset efforts rather painful. That's why they don't have one on the market.
- rswail 4y agoI'm pretty sure that Apple will bring a major new product like AR/VR to market with a bunch of apps lined up. I doubt the lack of gaming titles is causing them to not bring it to market. VR/AR is not mobile gaming and its not PC gaming. It's a new method of interaction, especially AR. Gaming will be just one aspect of it. I suspect a whole new genre. Pokemon Go on steroids.
- fooker 4y ago>I suspect a whole new genre. Pokemon Go on steroids. Interesting that the canonical example is a game! :)
- quyleanh 4y agoI still keep the opinion that Microsoft shouldn’t support Windows Bootcamp on Apple Silicon device, since it will affect to the Windows market share.
- rswail 4y agoMicrosoft probably doesn't care about Windows market share on actual native hardware. They are moving their business customers onto the cloud. Microsoft Windows 365 is what they want people on. Monthly subscriptions and streamed remote desktop. They want people using their apps, Office 365 is already available on MacOS.
- Inviz 4y ago8gb memory limitation in parallels is crippling it
- Tsiklon 4y agoYou can run with more memory in parallels’ pro SKU. Albeit at increased cost.
- lopkeny12ko 4y agoA lot of the commenters in this thread are either very young, or completely forgot about the "embrace, extend, extinguish" era of Microsoft in the 90s and 00s.
- rswail 4y agoTo really remember, let's assume a person needed to be 15 around 2005. Those people are now 33. Not what I'd call "very young". Microsoft was founded 40+ years ago. It's changed over that time. So has Apple. So has the entire IT market.
- yieldcrv 4y agoI totally forgot about not having Bootcamp or ARM Windows on the M series Macbooks I suggest you all totally forget about it too
- bigmadwolf 4y agoThis is a good win for Microsoft. Think of all the extra Windows ARM QA telemetry they will get which will improve the platform in the long run.