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Zendesk CEO calls Freshdesk a freaking rip off - Freshdesk responds

310 points by girishm 15y ago

omfg 15y ago
Zendesk should've left this alone. I can't even fathom why they'd start. The products don't look alike. They are takes on the same name, help / support desk, which is a standard name. I don't want to rag on Zendesk. I've been using them for years. But with stupid remarks like this, their incredibly slow / almost non-existent development on the product, and lackluster support have me keeping an eye out for replacements. Kind of dangerous with stuff like Assistly looming out there. That said, I'm not sure an entire domain name was warranted for this. I thought it was just a blog post at first.
kevingadd 15y ago
Hey, look, Ad Hominems on a domain name registered for the express purpose of an internet flame war between two competitors! It must be Sunday. I wonder if these tactics actually have a measurable impact on sales?
- deleted 15y ago
  [deleted]
  - white_devil 15y ago
    You sure are pushing your product hard. Drama attracts attention, which you then direct towards your sign-up page. Kind of sleazy.
    - CamperBob 15y ago
      Seems all the 'drama' came from Zendesk's paid blogger. If you don't want the other team to score with the ball, don't hand them the ball.
      - benkepes 15y ago
        Oh FFS, and for the millionth time. I am NOT Zendesk's paid blogger" /out
        manja 15y ago
        are you trying to do a clinton by using "am"? can you unequivocally say "i was not a zendesk paid blogger"?
- lucisferre 15y ago
  Even if they did it will simply be a short lived bump unless the product and service is measurably better. If it is then in the long run it shouldn't matter either way. However, I do think their criticisms of Zendesk and their paid blogger's method of product 'evangelism' are fair and they have every right to take their shot and fire back a bit. It's all good, the better product development team will most likely win either way.
fastom 15y ago
Girish, you pull in a random quote about nationality from a source absolutely unrelated to ZenDesk as a means of sensationalizing your argument. It's a valid conversation and thread of discussion, but it has nothing to do with your dealings with ZenDesk. If your product is as good as you say it is, I'd leave out the part about nationality and focus the message on your product, not incendiary sensationalism. edit: Thought I'd add: I'm from India and am not associated with ZenDesk, FreshDesk or any other Desk company.
bjtitus 15y ago
Looks like I won't be using either of these products. Think of all that could have been accomplished on the product had they not been squabbling and setting up websites to argue with one another. No one comes out on top in situations like this. I think it's best to end it with something like: "I'm sorry you feel that way. We'll let the customers decide."
- maxwin 15y ago
  I think Freshdesk might come out on top on this. I know Zendesk but I've never heard of Freshdesk. Now I know them because of this drama. It's on HN front page and some HN readers might become potential customers. It's free media coverage for Freshdesk. (Zendesk doesn't need this because most already know who they are). I think it was a bad move by Zendesk.
- maushu 15y ago
  Actually, this should increase the number of trials and customers for Freshdesk. It's like playing chess. Zendesk made a bad move and Freshdesk used that move to respond brilliantly.
  - yangez 15y ago
    Nah, this is like playing chess on the wrong board. It's a waste of time and no one gets anything worthwhile accomplished.
    - a5seo 15y ago
      Seriously? Creating that page just got Freshdesk on the HN homepage and hurt Zendesk's reputation very badly. That's a twofer in my book. The fact that Zendesk is using "analyst" payola smacks of the worst practices of four quadrant research firms and enterprise software. "Want to the upper-right quadrant? Sure thing, the price will be..." So at least in this case, it was exposed and we can properly adjust the value of all involved's reputations.
    - benatkin 15y ago
      It's a bad move for FreshDesk's company culture. It's a worse move for ZenDesk but a bad move for FreshDesk. They took this and made it a part of their company by registering a domain name and making a big, glittery page about it. Also, since ZenDesk isn't exactly a behemoth, and it names names, it's quite personal.
chintan100 15y ago
Great response. :) I will be reminded of this incident every time i see the Zendesk logo when i submit a ticket on a site that uses them. What an awful way to lose respect and damage credibility.
smoyer 15y ago
I like how MRGirish admits that FreshDesk wouldn't exist if it wasn't for ZenDesk. Doesn't that prove the point? So my question for FreshDesk is this ... How is your service more innovative than ZenDesk?
- lucisferre 15y ago
  Bottom line is who cares? It doesn't have to be a help desk revolution if switching customers like it better and if they don't then it will probably flame out and die.
- girishm 15y ago
  smoyer - When I said that, I was referring to this http://blog.freshdesk.com/the-freshdesk-story-how-a-simple-comment-on-h-0 http://blog.freshdesk.com/the-freshdesk-story-how-a-simple-c... HN Discussion is here - http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2340732 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2340732
- mstroeck 15y ago
  Here's my question: HOW THE FUCK DOES THAT MATTER. They are a business, they want to make money. Consumers will choose whichever product they prefer. Everybody wins. End of story.
coryl 15y ago
This is some sort of PR stunt marketing ploy? Either way I'm not really impressed (I'd guess most consumers aren't impressed) by pointless personal bickering. Marketing based on negative sentiment is not effective.
- zecho 15y ago
  If negative marketing didn't work, we wouldn't have negative campaigning. The point of it isn't to boost your brand so much as it is to suppress your opponent's. However, it alienates the undecided. Mudslinging works best when targeted to base voter blocs. We rarely see it in product advertising, though, because of this fear of alienation. It takes a very well-put-together campaign to attack your competition without giving them too much exposure. The last effective one in recent memory is probably Mac vs. PC, and that focused on targeting the frustrations of current PC users. Often you see it set up in that David vs. Goliath light, which is what I think Freshdesk is trying to do here. This however, isn't marketing. Or, at least, didn't start that way. It started with what you said: pointless personal bickering. There's no reason for it and Zendesk should probably have never have brought up Freshdesk in the first place, negative comments or not. Freshdesk took it as an opportunity to do a compare/contrast while people were paying attention. I'm guessing it has zero effect on sales in the long run, though. (Personally, I'm now even more glad with our choice of using Assistly.)
WestCoastJustin 15y ago
You know you are doing something right when people hate you.. Seems like a odd thing for them to get into a pissing contest with these guys. First of all, you're acknowledging their existence and what can you do to prevent them from doing what they're doing?
yangez 15y ago
This whole thing is really juvenile. The Zendesk guys look a lot worse here, but by making such a big deal out of it and turning it into an obvious PR stunt the Freshdesk folks aren't doing themselves any favors either. I understand it's difficult and highly offensive when a competitor blatantly bashes you but don't overreact and bring yourself down to their level.
hajrice 15y ago
Disclaimer: I'm the founder of Helpjuice.com. We compete with Zendesk's knowledge base. This is so rude from Zendesk. In case you think someone has ripped of your product, in any way, you (as the CEO of a 30+ company with 10,000 customers) SHOULD NEVER, EVER write something like that. I'm 100% with Freshdesk on this one specifically because of the tone of Zendesk and Freshdesk. The way Mikkel responded to Freshdesk is silly and childish. If someone were to make a knock off of my product, I wouldn't tweet at them like Mikkel did. Or support one of my buddies (who is perhaps disguised as a blogger for blog XYZ) that's trolling a company's image, saying that they're the same as Zendesk. Or calling them Indian cowboys. Zendesk, I hope you understand that you've turned me (an actual person who supports everything you do, and someone who talks to the folks at Assistly with a great and friendly tone) into someone who honestly hopes you loose this "battle" and have left a nasty look in a lot of people's eyes. I don't know much about Freshdesk's product, but I know the way they reacted was nice and professional (exactly the opposite of how you responded). +1 on that. Lesson learned: You don't do marketing by bashing on someone's product without looking like an ass (and perhaps loosing a couple customers). P.S.: (to the Freshdesk folks) Congrats on stepping up and putting time in to create a page like this. I would have maybe included screenshots of the product to further help your customers understand that you're not a knock off of Zendesk.
- nodata 15y ago
  > I'm 100% with Freshdesk on this one specifically because of the tone of Zendesk and Freshdesk. Why would you decide who is right based on tone? Why not on the validity of their argument?
  - hajrice 15y ago
    There isn't too many arguments in play. One thinks Freshdesk is knockoff of Zendesk, the other one makes a website describing how it isn't. The real play is the choice of words and how Mikkel("Indian cowboys", the RIP OFF comment, etc.) went on about this, and how Zendesk responded The customers are there to tell whether they're a knock off or not. I don't want to say anything as I'm not a customer.
j45 15y ago
This might be a good lesson in don't feed the monster so it gets more attention. When the big guy talks smack about a presumably smaller guy, it's because they're threatened? Who cares if their pricing is a rip off, it's good for Zendesk if Freshdesk is a ripoff, because no one will use it. By saying and doing nothing Freshdesk could spiral into a blackhole of me never hearing about it. Instead Zendesk put Freshdesk on it's own level by talking about it as an equal. Zendesk used it's brand power to legitimize Freshdesk as an option just by talking about them like this. Instead of never seeing Freshdesk, I checked out a Zendesk competitor because of Zendesk, with more than normal scrutiny. One feature I now like about Freshdesk is that it manages multiple SLA's. P.S., I use neither Zendesk or Freshdesk.
- ams6110 15y ago
  Exactly. Before this I'd never heard of either one of them. Probably hard to keep in mind from the inside, but for most tech companies, almost nobody knows you exist. Certainly less than that number know about any of your smaller competitors.
- tingletech 15y ago
  >Who cares if their pricing is a rip off yea, I read it that way at first but I don't think that is what they are saying. "Knockoff" is probably what they meant.
  - j45 15y ago
    Fair, but we could find things zendesk is a knock off of, no? Maybe some folks start to believe their own legend too much. Originality and innovation is far rarer than we'd like to think.
wildgift 15y ago
They're all freaking rip offs of Request Tracker. :)
- j45 15y ago
  I wonder if Zendesk wants to reply to that. :P
DevX101 15y ago
Hey girish, Can you write a post in a week to let us know how many customers you gained from this? If you can find out how many came from ZenDesk, even better.
- girishm 15y ago
  If you think that will help the HN community,I will. I have another post almost ready where I wanted to share my Series A fundraising experience . But then this happened!
sunir 15y ago
Christian Marth (@cloudgroupsyd) has a lot of explaining for that ridiculous and risible "Indian cowboy" dig. Twenty times worse because he doubled down on it while backpeddling.
- j45 15y ago
  Normally comments about someone's perceived race (I didn't know there was more than one human race) is reserved for idiots who get their education about the world from tv. The indian cowboy slur against Freshdesk is beyond ignorant. Especially for a technie. They're usually pretty good for researching. Maybe Christian Marth should learn indians invented counting, the pentium chip, hotmail, fiber optics and lots of other things without which our ability to bask in our own glory is not as possible. If they're not perfect, but as we can see from Zendesk, neither are others.
  - j45 15y ago
    Thanks downvoters, your hatering feeds my loving. :)
    - pelemele 15y ago
      Wikipedia: Smith came up with the idea for anonymous web-based email in 1995, and worked with his colleague at Apple, Bhatia, to found the company.
      - j45 15y ago
        Here? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hotmail#History http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hotmail#History
- Legion 15y ago
  Is "Indian cowboy" an insult? Makes them sound like Bollywood badasses to me.
  - Hates_ 15y ago
itmag 15y ago
Slightly off-topic: anyone got any ideas on how to innovate in this niche? I am always looking to add to my idea pile :) (See here: http://ideashower.posterous.com http://ideashower.posterous.com)
jtchang 15y ago
Wow what a craptastic response from Zendesk. I think it is fine to have a bit of a spar over features in competing products but you have to keep it civil.
blissofbeing 15y ago
I have used both freshdesk and zendesk and have to say I prefer zendesk, freshdesk offers nothing substantial over zendesk. Having said that I am grateful freshdesk is there to spur some innovation.
BadassFractal 15y ago
Delicious drama. Go on.
kennystone 15y ago
Absolutely a rip-off, but Zendesk was stupid to comment on it.
lucianomt 15y ago
"Rip-off"? It's a help desk service for Pete's sake, not the Xerox GUI or the Page-rank. If Freshdesk can deliver the same value to customers for a fraction of Zendesk's cost, kudos to them.
therandomguy 15y ago
You must be awfully naive to think that there will be no competitors (with similar features) when you build a product which is relatively simple. If it wasn't listed in bold under the "threat" section of your business plan then something is off.
omouse 15y ago
It's funny because they could be co-operating instead of competing and be making much more money by targeting different markets.
preek 15y ago
Quoting Mahatma Gandhi and then immediately writing your name and title under it just seems wrong.
- senthilnayagam 15y ago
  It is just a closing argument, I don't think it went through multiple iterations
polemic 15y ago
This whole spat just highlights one of those truths that's evident to those in the industry: There is no such thing as a good idea, only good execution. Being first doesn't count for anything. Having a vaguely similar name doesn't count for anything. In the end, only how well your product works, how many users you can attract and retain, and how much value it provides matter.
- ericd 15y ago
  There is such a thing as a good idea, it's just not very defensible, because once it appears to be working well as a business, the copycats come out of the woodwork.
ecaron 15y ago
As much as I'd like to side with the guy getting picked on (Freshdesk), Zendesk is completely right. Ignoring the interface and naming similarities, you can't complain about ZenDesk on Twitter without multiple Freshdesk spammers bombarding you. Sure there's nothing illegal about it, but they're obnoxious with the "a customer of a rival is complaining, I MUST CONVERT THEM!" concept. (I called them a rip-off of Zendesk back in late October - http://mobile.twitter.com/ecaron/status/123594375560302592 http://mobile.twitter.com/ecaron/status/123594375560302592 - and it took several days for @vshankar90 and @mrgirish to stop harassing me on Twitter...)
- shakes 15y ago
  Something about the whole freshdesk attitude really rubs me the wrong way. Not saying zendesk is in the right either. I just feel like I read the whole ripoffornot page and cringe. Definitely doesn't seem like the type of company I would want to give my time or money. A couple people complained about their product on twitter and they built a whole page responding to it? In it, they respond to the criticism by making personal attacks against those who complained about them? Really weird. Stop starting flame wars, start making a decent product.
  - mavelikara 15y ago
    In an alternate universe it would look like they are complaining about personal attacks on them.
    - shakes 15y ago
      Yeah, I think that's the problem with these kinds of flame wars. Is freshdesk right that the criticism about them was out of line? Yes. Does responding by saying the criticism "reflects poorly on the intellectual ability of the person making the judgement" and "[criticizer should] exercise better judgement and ethics when making negative comments about a company" seem heavy-handed and just as ridiculous as the initial criticism? In my opinion, yes. I've had people call me every name in the book over my projects: a copy-cat, a sad and pathetic developer taking advantage of people and those are just a couple off the top of my head. Did I respond by calling those people ignorant or stupid or unethical? No. I just let it be. I feel good about what I'm doing and I keep trying to make products I'm proud of. Haters gonna hate.
tzs 15y ago
The help desk field is crowded. A quick search reveals that at least half a dozen of the large number of companies in that space have "desk" in their name. Any analyst that thinks that putting "desk" in the name of a help desk product is a "blatant attempt to piggyback" off of another help desk product with "desk" in the name is an idiot or is being paid to make that observation. (In this case, it was the latter, although that doesn't preclude the former).
mstroeck 15y ago
Being first is worthless in and off itself. Execution and customer service are what counts. If you are: a) an entrepreneur; and b) think that "rip-offs" like this one are in some way unethical... ... you need to get your head out of your ass, ASAP! Taking other peoples' great ideas and applying them to make your own product even better is not called "ripping somebody off". That process is called "business".
therandomguy 15y ago
Without much research it sounds like Kepes and Svane got pwnd hard.
jen_h 15y ago
If you're on the right track, competitors are going to rip you off. If you're on the right track, competitors are going to try to poach your customers. If you're on the right track, some competitors are going to talk trash about you when they think no one's looking. Or even when everyone's looking! Using profanity in their Twitter feeds, even! But just because you're on the right track doesn't mean you can't derail; take the high road and let your customers decide. How you deal with unethical competitors is just one mettle-proving battle in a much larger campaign. I sympathize with Zendesk, but there are times where it's wiser to just let your tongue bleed out. Let that extra salt sustain you for the more important battles ahead.
- omarchowdhury 15y ago
  How is FreshDesk ripping off or poaching the customers of ZenDesk? Last time I checked, it was people connected to ZenDesk who are the one's talking trash.
  - dangrossman 15y ago
    > How is FreshDesk ripping off or poaching the customers of ZenDesk? Read some of the other comments in this thread. > Ignoring the interface and naming similarities, you can't complain about ZenDesk on Twitter without multiple Freshdesk spammers bombarding you.
  - Stormbringer 15y ago
    Last time I checked, having a feature list where you compare your product with theirs, complete with little green ticks and all, it probably means your software is playing in the same space as theirs. That's the real essence of the "rip off" portion of the accusation. Copying your competitors features... well, that happens a lot. Copying their name and their features, and then acting surprised when people call you on it? That's pretty much textbook douchebaggery. But the copying doesn't stop there, because they even copied the pricing structure! And then they act all upset when they get accused of copying. As for the racially inflamatory remarks... go check the last big discussion on hacker news about the state of the Indian education system. The Indians themselves say that cheating is blatant and pervasive. So while that kind of strawman argument doesn't do much for the intellectual quality of the argument.... you shouldn't complain about being stereotyped if what you are doing conforms exactly to the stereotype. In other words, if the shoe fits, wear it. If not, then throw it.
tbrooks 15y ago
There's a political saying that should be heeded, "never attack downward." You risk more by attacking downward and you have less to gain.
dools 15y ago
Man this is classy. Well done Freshdesk.
jblow 15y ago
Why is this here? How do I downvote the post or recommend it for the "stupid twitter he-said-she-said" category?
teyc 15y ago
HackerNews readers, watch and learn. I'm about deconstruct what is going on. Anybody who brushes off FreshDesk because of its Indian roots is doing FreshDesk a favour. This is a sharp mind at work and it is lethal. FreshDesk is executing the standard modus operandi of upstart against an incumbent. Jobs is a master at it (I'm Apple I'm Microsoft), Calacanis too (remember the SEO controversy, and then the Angel controversy?), and Girish is in the same league. The idea is to frame everything as a controversy, and linkbaits people into discussing it. Notice how a custom domain is used and it is a mini website, not just a blog post? It is a custom website intended to fuel controversy and will drive a lot of SEO juice from bloggers all over the world. Sit back and watch its PageRank explode. Girish is also running very hungry by executing a social media campaign. People may not buy from Twitter, but it buys mindshare. It will be a matter of time before FreshDesk gets a good recall rate, as long as it acts heads above other people. The name itself enjoys co-recognition from Freshbooks as well as ZenDesk. Don't forget, Girish comes with a Zoho pedigree, and this is a company that has bootstrapped itself in India and no one would say the software is anything but world-class. As for ZenDesk, Girish has stuck a fork into Ben Keepes for the lack of disclosure (by the way, I've been a long time reader of CloudAve, always insightful, even if [I now have to perceived it as potentially] biased), and then masterfully weaves ZenDesk CEO's twitter reply with the overtly racist overtone that cloudavesyd (onya Aussies) "Indian cowboys"-tweet. Note that mikkelsvane wasn't party to the "Indian cowboys" comment, but the way it is put, mikkelsvane sounded like he was in agreement (although to anyone who pays close attention to this type of things, he clearly was talking about something else). Girish, if you are reading - I'm in Australia, if you could - please don't turn this into a wider "Australians enjoy India bashing meme". We already have a hard time here, and race doesn't factor much if at all in business. As for ZenDesk, the important thing is to stay above the fray, establish their incumbency, but emphasize their own underdoggedness. Both can play the jingoist game and appeal to emotions.
- idspispopd 15y ago
  Thank you for pointing out this obvious PR campaign. The whole point of highlighting this exchange, the surrounding publicity, the custom url/etc is to raise the profile and get people to pick sides to generate discussion. This PR technique is as old as the sex tape and about exhausted as it gets. It's the online equivalent of reading "britney spears vs lindsay lohan".
orthecreedence 15y ago
TL;DR: Nu uh!!!! ='''( [Quote comparing us to Gandhi] I think their response was a bit too involved. They were insulted by some blowhard (CEO or not) and instead of rolling with the punches, they write an emotionally-charged, whiny blog post. Not to mention a name is the stupidest thing to fight over. If you want to see a real rip-off, check out github vs bitbucket. Just focus on making your product. If you're doing well, some people may turn into little girls and get jealous and throw tantrums. Ignore them and focus on your goals. Engaging in back and forth like this shows nothing but weakness. EDIT: Just noticed they actually bought a domain for this. Even worse. I don't see good things in the future for Freshdesk if this is how they respond to an affront. Also, why are they comparing themselves to Gandhi? You've got to be kidding me...?
keeptrying 15y ago
There's nothing like bad publicity. I never heard of freshdesk before this. Use the publicity That you've been given freshdesk but don't overdo it!
- andrewfelix 15y ago
  "There's nothing like bad publicity." Carrier iQ might have something to say about that. I agree though, this is great publicity for FreshDesk. May the best service win.
mmaunder 15y ago
Regarding the initial dispute over trademark: The "desk" part of the name is 'descriptive' and so isn't the strong part of each trademark. The "zen/fresh" parts are arbitrary so are the strong part of each mark. These are distinct, so I don't think there is a valid claim to trademark infringement here. One could argue that "desk" is 'suggestive' in trademark law which makes it a bit stronger, but I don't think that would fly. If one of the companies can show actual instances of customer confusion, then there may be a case as this is an important test in a trademark case. The fact that zen haven't filed suit speaks volumes.
- diamondhead 15y ago
  It's not all about a name. Freshdesk is an embarrassing copy of Zendesk.
  - chairface 15y ago
    A lot of successful products are copies of something else, and more power to them. The company I work for* had a competitor make an "embarrassing copy" of our flagship product, and they managed to get acquired because of it. But you know what? I don't hold it against them, in fact, congrats to them. If anything it validates the space we're in. * I'm deliberately not mentioning the company or product by name, because I don't particularly want to start a subthread about this situation - the particulars would detract from the point I'm making.
    - diamondhead 15y ago
      Does your company's competitor copy even your visual design? What I see here is some bullshit makers trying to promote their product by trolling. This is not the common case. By the way, I'm not against copying. I distribute my website, multiplayerchess.com with WTF License to let people clone it easily. Again, what I see here is bullshit. It's unethical, it's not honest.
      - chairface 15y ago
collypops 15y ago
I think everyone's still getting caught up in the Steve Jobs-ness of the past couple of months. CEO's are acting cocky, cause that's what Steve would have done. They're calling out people who they think have stolen their ideas, cause that's what Steve would have done. What they're completely missing is Steve's greatest lesson: If you want to trample your competitors, just build a better product.
diamondhead 15y ago
What Freshdesk tries to do is redirecting your attention to the similarity of the names. If you really check out Freshdesk, you'll see that they copied Zendesk with no piece of difference!
kumarm 15y ago
If desk part of the name is Zendesk's issue. There exist multi billion companies with desk in their name (Autodesk) much before anyone thought of Zendesk. Freshdesk really did good with their response. I never heard of them before and now anyone talks about Zendesk, I will remember Freshdesk.
foobarbazetc 15y ago
It's kind of irrelevant, since both services are handily beaten by Assistly. Well, Assistly before they got bought and couldn't keep their service up.
stfp 15y ago
Interestingly enough, Freshdesk apparently got started when Zendesk raised their prices - and a comment on HN about how this created a market for a cheaper competitor gave them the initial idea. So, at least partly a rip-off in my book. Source: http://blog.freshdesk.com/the-freshdesk-story-how-a-simple-comment-on-h-0 http://blog.freshdesk.com/the-freshdesk-story-how-a-simple-c...
freejack 15y ago
All I want to know is how this got to be the top story on HackerNews. Its a blatant PR grab on one side, and borderline infantile on the other. Yuck on both counts.
jerhinesmith 15y ago
I was with them up until the quote at the end. At best, it's disputed[1]. It's strange how one small oversight took the wind of the entire argument's sail (so to speak). [1] http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Mohandas_Karamchand_Gandhi#Disputed http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Mohandas_Karamchand_Gandhi#Disp...
dotBen 15y ago
Just to point out this was posted to HN by Girish Mathrubootham himself (the Founder/CEO of FreshDesk). It's worthy of debate, but we'll all feeding this PR stunt (and if some people feel Girish is a troll, then you're feeding a troll too). And usually it's considered 'poor form' to submit your own stuff to HN.
diamondhead 15y ago
If the Hacker News people need a guide to notice how FreshDesk guys are motivated to draw the attention of people by making bullshit, I'm going to stop reading HN. Shame on you the readers voted this article up. This is completely bullshit. If you take a look at the website of Freshdesk, you'll see that they stole the design of Zendesk. They probably did it to draw the attention of Zendesk and gather some angry tweets that can be used in such a way you see. This is the last article I've seen in HN. I'll never enter this website again. Seriously, enough bullshit for a coder. Time to leave HN alone with the embarrassing promoters and gossip girls.
- ceejayoz 15y ago
  > If you take a look at the website of Freshdesk, you'll see that they stole the design of Zendesk. Are there that many different possible designs for a helpdesk system?
  - diamondhead 15y ago
    Did you checked out the designs of two website? Freshdesk even copy the buttons of Zendesk's homepage. What the fuck are you talking about?
tlrobinson 15y ago
I'm less likely to give my money to either of these companies now. I hate when companies publicly bash each other, even if it's in retaliation.
tuckbuck 15y ago
Different possible Zendesk(ZD) responses and their outcomes : - Keep quiet and wishing this episode to go away In my opinion ,this is not the best option.At some point ZD would have to come back with a response,atleast to their customers. Not responding keeps Freshdesk(FD) in driving the discourse and makes ZD look timid. - CEO should make a short tweet ( & no more) ,IMMEDIATELY.It should say " Still stand by my ripoff comment.IMHO ,a crappy ripoff. " . this will prevent this issue from becoming any more sensational and will stop adding fuel to the issue . ZD CEO should stick to his ground by saying that FD IS A RIPOFF The ZD CEO made a subjective,nasty comment about a competitor's product - this happens all the time. ZD DID NOT make any of the nasty comments like "indian cowboys" etc. Ben keepes and the personal comment by ZD is the only connection with ZD. FD is trying to make ZD look guilty by association. - Next they should go on the offensive by targeting FD customers and prove that FD is indeed crappy. eg FD customers will get 6 months free.
sarahsflowers 15y ago
An obvious PR campaign that damages Freshbook's brand perception in my mind. I had no opinion of them before, but this sleazy tactic creates a negative image. I think it helps them to build awareness, but at what cost...
alex_c 15y ago
All I see are a bunch of self-promotional trolls, on both sides of the "issue". Is setting up an entire website really a proportionate response to a dumb tweet? (Obviously, it is if you're stirring up controversy). Seriously, guys... don't feed the trolls. You should know better than this.
- dools 15y ago
  What's wrong with self promotion? Who else is going to promote you for free?
  - alex_c 15y ago
    What's wrong with self promotion? It can make the signal-to-noise ratio unbearable. It cheapens the community, and makes it less interesting and useful. Who else is going to promote you for free? People who genuinely like your product. It's even better than free, they're paying you money.
taylorbuley 15y ago
Related discussion from when this company launched almost a year ago: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2341454 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2341454
jmedwards 15y ago
The whole thing is completely overblown (intentionally so and calculated, of course, by Freshdesk) and was very unnecessary to begin with (on Zendesk's part). As an Indian-started helpdesk software company ourselves, the 'Indian cowboy' comment raised our brows a bit. It was very unfortunate. But then I realised it was said by a relative nobody. That didn't stop it being used to inflame the situation, though. Disclosure: I'm from Kayako.com, competitor, the original Original helpdesk and bemused bystander ;-)
- adriarichards 15y ago
  We all should realize it's Twitter, home of public flame wars. Agreed. That comment was from a bystander and Freshdesk pulled it into the story to sensationalize. Yes, I remember back in 2005 when there was Kayako, Cerberus, Activecampaign, Request Tracker and PHP Ticket. All required self-hosting of files and maintenance. A cloud based helpdesk just wasn't an option. In the end, customers will select technology that fits their needs. Those needs may be completely technical in nature but more and more, customers are making decisions about technology vendors based on the ethics and relationship with that company. Nice to see you contribute this thread.
  - jmedwards 15y ago
    Ditto! I seem to bump into you everywhere. The Internet is a small place. > customers are making decisions about technology vendors based on the ethics and relationship with that company Indeed. In such a crowded space with plenty of the same feature-wise, there is no doubt that the personality of a company (in this case, conveyed over social media) is going to play this kind of role. PS: We were doing SaaS in 2005 :-)
eduardordm 15y ago
Both sides look silly to me. That's exactly the type of emotional reactions you get from young, technical entrepreneurs. EQ is just as important as IQ if you really want to be relevant in business.
marcamillion 15y ago
This is a stroke of PR genius. Agree or not, look at the attention they are getting. The sales numbers will tell whether or not it was worth it - given that this is essentially free...I can't see how it won't be worth it. As for Zendesk, anyway you take it, they have a crisis on their hands.
viveksec 15y ago
I am Indian and I wish we would lighten up. Things aren't pure as milk here either. There are quite a few Indian companies which ask their employees to use Western names while creating online content such as on support forums, twitter accounts, etc.
techhacker 15y ago
Any startup worth its passion will use these opportunities to grab attention (you will be a dumb fool if you don't). So arguing whether Freshdesk is right vs. wrong in putting up this site doesn't really mean a lot. The only person who has lost credibility in this entire episode is Ben Kepes (ofcourse he started the fire).
billpatrianakos 15y ago
This is going to hurt Freshdesk more than help. Creating that site was an immature move. They're framing it like this is an issue that anyone besides the guys at Freshdesk cares about. And calling the site "ripoffornot"? Cheap move. I honestly thought I was about to visit a website dedicated to comparing products and deducing who is ripping of who. Then I saw it and I thought "damn, what a cheap, crybaby, attention whore move". Freshdesk is playing dirty all while trying to convince us that it's the other guys that are playing dirty. I hope we all see through the BS. You don't win hearts and minds by being a bully and they're being bullies while trying to look like victims. When I see a company do something like this, that's so cheap and obvious, I immediately wonder how desperate they are. They're also doing themselves a disservice by calling attention to the fact that they've been called a ripoff. People's first reactions will be to wonder why they feel the need to defend themselves so vehemently against that sort of thing. If they're not a ripoff then why do they have to work so hard to convince me otherwise? Am I saying they're a ripoff of Zendesk? No, but their actions have now put the idea in my head. Major backfire.
avlesh-singh 15y ago
Blame it on me being a dyslexic kid. What is there to rip-off? I fail to understand what is rocket science in Zendesk that any other customer support tool should not have? Zendesk's reactions are uncalled for.
yogrish 15y ago
A fitting response from Freshdesk.Zendesk has to pay for its badmouthing. They started it and Freshdesk is milking the controversy surrounding. May be FD scripted this long before, expecting this attack from zendesk.
nethsix 15y ago
I'm not arguing for either but trying to state a point. Putting a side-by-side feature list face-off showing you have more features than the incumbent does not in anyway, prove that you are not a rip off. In fact, it probably proves that you are and just trying to outdo the incumbent. There would be little to compare if both were playing in a different area.
szcukg 15y ago
Yawn
nemik 15y ago
YSoapOperas.
gws 15y ago
Very well executed response. If they can execute that well on this I can imagine that they are even better on product development and customer service. I don't understand the comments against their response. I find shameful that a paid blogger tweet against a competitor with a subjective attack without disclosing the conflict of interest and that the guy paying the blogger chimes in insulting the competitor. And Ghandi's quote at the end fit so well, I am still smiling :)
- Luyt 15y ago
  Gandhi, not Ghandi ;-) A very common mistake. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gandhi http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gandhi
paraschopra 15y ago
As CEO of another Indian startup, I am furious that anybody would drag nationality into this. There are no boundaries on Internet, and certainly Girish rightly says that commenting on nationality simply reflects poorly on his own maturity level. Aren't most of the products rip-off in some sense? Take Apple, Google, Yahoo or any other company out there. Rarely, if ever, a company comes up with something totally new and innovative that it doesn't resemble anything else in the market. A new category, that is. ZenDesk didn't invent helpdesk system. Instead, like all other companies, they are evolving and perfecting helpdesk systems. FreshDesk is also an attempt at this, (and so is our product Visual Website Optimizer for A/B testing tools). I wish companies compete in a professional and respectful way, this war of words simply disgusts me.
haxplorer 15y ago
http://fakeoffice.org/ http://fakeoffice.org/ - This is how Zoho took advantage of the words of Ron Markezich to get some good publicity and recall against MS Office. No wonder Girish who is an ex-Zoho did the same with this tweet. Seems to be a nice way to market your product as a replacement to the current market leader.
nickpp 15y ago
Zendesk CEO was stupid for paying them attention. Freshdesk is SCUM. This kind of strategy, of generating controversy and creating "noise" around your company is rooted in the "there is no such thing as bad publicity" belief. It's immoral, and ungentlemanly. And yes, it is very common with 3rd world companies. I've seen it before. Very often their products ARE rip-off of established market products as well (no idea if this is true in this case though). I suppose it comes from the social corruption and "everything goes" that surrounds life around there. Basically lack of civilization. It would be very sad if the market rewards them instead of the companies focused on developing a good product, improving it and keeping an atmosphere of cooperation and civility in the industry.
- middus 15y ago
  So without knowing if this is true in this case though you call them SCUM? Way to go...
deleted 15y ago
[deleted]
benkepes 15y ago
OK - here goes.... My tweet, "“Seems to me that #Freshdesk is an unethical troll trying to cash in on #Zendesk‘s good name. But that could just be me….”" was an off the cuff remark. I still think Freshdesk is trying to leverage Zendesk's brand but hey, hat's just my opinion. I do note that other folks in here have commented on the similartiies between the two products, I've reached out to Freshdesk asking to ommuncate with them to review their product - am looking forward to comparing them with Zendesk. The image on Freshdesk's site showing a Zendesk post with my name on it actually relates to a CloudCamp that Zendesk was helping to spread the message about earlier this year. I run CloudCamps in aus/nz (for free, as in gratis, voluntary, unpaid). So that image is kind of irrelevant - it's kind of like saying that a Red Cross volunteer is somehow in the pocket of a large corporate that sponsors the Red Cross. That said I did do some writing for Zendesk for their blog - around a year or so ago and not since then. So saying I'm a paid blogger for zendesk is kind of like saying I'm an advocate for mcdonalds since I worked there when I was 15. And for anyone who really cares, I have possibly the most complete disclosure statement of current and past engagements - feel free to cross check any other comments I make... http://www.diversity.net.nz/diversity_analysis/ben_kepes_disclosure/ http://www.diversity.net.nz/diversity_analysis/ben_kepes_dis... Finally, in relation to the comments from Christian Marth about he country of origin of the Freshdesk founders - that I obviously don't condone. Those who know me will see (from the size of my nose if nothing else) that I'm Jewish. My mother spent time in a concentration camp and my Grandfather was murdered by the Nazis because he was Jewish - with that background it's unlikely that I'd be a candidate for pulling the race card. /out
Krish123456 15y ago
I started the day off sympathizing with them because I thought Ben was not right in saying they ripped off the name. But now Freshdesk has proved that many of the commentators here are right. They are spammers and they even spam your Google Docs. See the screenshot here. http://twitpic.com/7p0m3o http://twitpic.com/7p0m3o
- Krish123456 15y ago
  Looks like Freshdesk is not the culprit but Google. It automatically adds docs I visit on the web to my list. I think I owe freshdesk an apology for thinking that they are spamming me.
vbrendel 15y ago
Freshdesk is a cheap clone. I've tried it. Once all the dust settles, it will be clear that Freshbooks IS a complete rip-off of Zendesk. 'RipoffOrNot.org'... errrm yes. You could think of worse products to rip off, so in that sense they've done well. I'm not going to point out the obvious stolen elements. Anyone can see the app is not just inspired, but clearly deliberately copied. They've also spent a lot of time reading all the feature requests on the Zendesk forums. There is also an import feature from only one competing helpdesk product. Guess which one. At the end of the day, Freshdesk is built exactly like any Zoho product (Girish worked for Zoho). And based on how it feels it might as well be a Zoho product: feature wise it ticks a heap of boxes and it's low cost. But to live with it has many limitations that won't stand up in actual real life, as in this case, the running of a help desk. It's seriously lacking workflow, custom widgets, the 100+ 3rd party integrations, and plenty more settings and customizations that make Zendesk what it is. Zendesk has many decent alternatives but Freshdesk isn't one of them. If you're actually considering Freshdesk there are a huge amount of alternatives including freemium ones. Mojo Helpdesk comes to mind but really the web is full of them.

310 points by girishm 15y ago

omfg 15y ago

Zendesk should've left this alone. I can't even fathom why they'd start. The products don't look alike. They are takes on the same name, help / support desk, which is a standard name. I don't want to rag on Zendesk. I've been using them for years. But with stupid remarks like this, their incredibly slow / almost non-existent development on the product, and lackluster support have me keeping an eye out for replacements. Kind of dangerous with stuff like Assistly looming out there. That said, I'm not sure an entire domain name was warranted for this. I thought it was just a blog post at first.

kevingadd 15y ago

Hey, look, Ad Hominems on a domain name registered for the express purpose of an internet flame war between two competitors! It must be Sunday. I wonder if these tactics actually have a measurable impact on sales?

deleted 15y ago
[deleted]
- white_devil 15y ago
  You sure are pushing your product hard. Drama attracts attention, which you then direct towards your sign-up page. Kind of sleazy.
  - CamperBob 15y ago
    Seems all the 'drama' came from Zendesk's paid blogger. If you don't want the other team to score with the ball, don't hand them the ball.
    - benkepes 15y ago
      Oh FFS, and for the millionth time. I am NOT Zendesk's paid blogger" /out
      - manja 15y ago
        are you trying to do a clinton by using "am"? can you unequivocally say "i was not a zendesk paid blogger"?
lucisferre 15y ago
Even if they did it will simply be a short lived bump unless the product and service is measurably better. If it is then in the long run it shouldn't matter either way. However, I do think their criticisms of Zendesk and their paid blogger's method of product 'evangelism' are fair and they have every right to take their shot and fire back a bit. It's all good, the better product development team will most likely win either way.

fastom 15y ago

Girish, you pull in a random quote about nationality from a source absolutely unrelated to ZenDesk as a means of sensationalizing your argument. It's a valid conversation and thread of discussion, but it has nothing to do with your dealings with ZenDesk. If your product is as good as you say it is, I'd leave out the part about nationality and focus the message on your product, not incendiary sensationalism. edit: Thought I'd add: I'm from India and am not associated with ZenDesk, FreshDesk or any other Desk company.

bjtitus 15y ago

Looks like I won't be using either of these products. Think of all that could have been accomplished on the product had they not been squabbling and setting up websites to argue with one another. No one comes out on top in situations like this. I think it's best to end it with something like: "I'm sorry you feel that way. We'll let the customers decide."

maxwin 15y ago
I think Freshdesk might come out on top on this. I know Zendesk but I've never heard of Freshdesk. Now I know them because of this drama. It's on HN front page and some HN readers might become potential customers. It's free media coverage for Freshdesk. (Zendesk doesn't need this because most already know who they are). I think it was a bad move by Zendesk.
maushu 15y ago
Actually, this should increase the number of trials and customers for Freshdesk. It's like playing chess. Zendesk made a bad move and Freshdesk used that move to respond brilliantly.
- yangez 15y ago
  Nah, this is like playing chess on the wrong board. It's a waste of time and no one gets anything worthwhile accomplished.
  - a5seo 15y ago
    Seriously? Creating that page just got Freshdesk on the HN homepage and hurt Zendesk's reputation very badly. That's a twofer in my book. The fact that Zendesk is using "analyst" payola smacks of the worst practices of four quadrant research firms and enterprise software. "Want to the upper-right quadrant? Sure thing, the price will be..." So at least in this case, it was exposed and we can properly adjust the value of all involved's reputations.
  - benatkin 15y ago
    It's a bad move for FreshDesk's company culture. It's a worse move for ZenDesk but a bad move for FreshDesk. They took this and made it a part of their company by registering a domain name and making a big, glittery page about it. Also, since ZenDesk isn't exactly a behemoth, and it names names, it's quite personal.

chintan100 15y ago

Great response. :) I will be reminded of this incident every time i see the Zendesk logo when i submit a ticket on a site that uses them. What an awful way to lose respect and damage credibility.

smoyer 15y ago

I like how MRGirish admits that FreshDesk wouldn't exist if it wasn't for ZenDesk. Doesn't that prove the point? So my question for FreshDesk is this ... How is your service more innovative than ZenDesk?

lucisferre 15y ago
Bottom line is who cares? It doesn't have to be a help desk revolution if switching customers like it better and if they don't then it will probably flame out and die.
girishm 15y ago
smoyer - When I said that, I was referring to this http://blog.freshdesk.com/the-freshdesk-story-how-a-simple-comment-on-h-0 http://blog.freshdesk.com/the-freshdesk-story-how-a-simple-c... HN Discussion is here - http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2340732 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2340732
mstroeck 15y ago
Here's my question: HOW THE FUCK DOES THAT MATTER. They are a business, they want to make money. Consumers will choose whichever product they prefer. Everybody wins. End of story.

coryl 15y ago

This is some sort of PR stunt marketing ploy? Either way I'm not really impressed (I'd guess most consumers aren't impressed) by pointless personal bickering. Marketing based on negative sentiment is not effective.

zecho 15y ago
If negative marketing didn't work, we wouldn't have negative campaigning. The point of it isn't to boost your brand so much as it is to suppress your opponent's. However, it alienates the undecided. Mudslinging works best when targeted to base voter blocs. We rarely see it in product advertising, though, because of this fear of alienation. It takes a very well-put-together campaign to attack your competition without giving them too much exposure. The last effective one in recent memory is probably Mac vs. PC, and that focused on targeting the frustrations of current PC users. Often you see it set up in that David vs. Goliath light, which is what I think Freshdesk is trying to do here. This however, isn't marketing. Or, at least, didn't start that way. It started with what you said: pointless personal bickering. There's no reason for it and Zendesk should probably have never have brought up Freshdesk in the first place, negative comments or not. Freshdesk took it as an opportunity to do a compare/contrast while people were paying attention. I'm guessing it has zero effect on sales in the long run, though. (Personally, I'm now even more glad with our choice of using Assistly.)

WestCoastJustin 15y ago

You know you are doing something right when people hate you.. Seems like a odd thing for them to get into a pissing contest with these guys. First of all, you're acknowledging their existence and what can you do to prevent them from doing what they're doing?

yangez 15y ago

This whole thing is really juvenile. The Zendesk guys look a lot worse here, but by making such a big deal out of it and turning it into an obvious PR stunt the Freshdesk folks aren't doing themselves any favors either. I understand it's difficult and highly offensive when a competitor blatantly bashes you but don't overreact and bring yourself down to their level.

hajrice 15y ago

Disclaimer: I'm the founder of Helpjuice.com. We compete with Zendesk's knowledge base. This is so rude from Zendesk. In case you think someone has ripped of your product, in any way, you (as the CEO of a 30+ company with 10,000 customers) SHOULD NEVER, EVER write something like that. I'm 100% with Freshdesk on this one specifically because of the tone of Zendesk and Freshdesk. The way Mikkel responded to Freshdesk is silly and childish. If someone were to make a knock off of my product, I wouldn't tweet at them like Mikkel did. Or support one of my buddies (who is perhaps disguised as a blogger for blog XYZ) that's trolling a company's image, saying that they're the same as Zendesk. Or calling them Indian cowboys. Zendesk, I hope you understand that you've turned me (an actual person who supports everything you do, and someone who talks to the folks at Assistly with a great and friendly tone) into someone who honestly hopes you loose this "battle" and have left a nasty look in a lot of people's eyes. I don't know much about Freshdesk's product, but I know the way they reacted was nice and professional (exactly the opposite of how you responded). +1 on that. Lesson learned: You don't do marketing by bashing on someone's product without looking like an ass (and perhaps loosing a couple customers). P.S.: (to the Freshdesk folks) Congrats on stepping up and putting time in to create a page like this. I would have maybe included screenshots of the product to further help your customers understand that you're not a knock off of Zendesk.

nodata 15y ago
> I'm 100% with Freshdesk on this one specifically because of the tone of Zendesk and Freshdesk. Why would you decide who is right based on tone? Why not on the validity of their argument?
- hajrice 15y ago
  There isn't too many arguments in play. One thinks Freshdesk is knockoff of Zendesk, the other one makes a website describing how it isn't. The real play is the choice of words and how Mikkel("Indian cowboys", the RIP OFF comment, etc.) went on about this, and how Zendesk responded The customers are there to tell whether they're a knock off or not. I don't want to say anything as I'm not a customer.

j45 15y ago

This might be a good lesson in don't feed the monster so it gets more attention. When the big guy talks smack about a presumably smaller guy, it's because they're threatened? Who cares if their pricing is a rip off, it's good for Zendesk if Freshdesk is a ripoff, because no one will use it. By saying and doing nothing Freshdesk could spiral into a blackhole of me never hearing about it. Instead Zendesk put Freshdesk on it's own level by talking about it as an equal. Zendesk used it's brand power to legitimize Freshdesk as an option just by talking about them like this. Instead of never seeing Freshdesk, I checked out a Zendesk competitor because of Zendesk, with more than normal scrutiny. One feature I now like about Freshdesk is that it manages multiple SLA's. P.S., I use neither Zendesk or Freshdesk.

ams6110 15y ago
Exactly. Before this I'd never heard of either one of them. Probably hard to keep in mind from the inside, but for most tech companies, almost nobody knows you exist. Certainly less than that number know about any of your smaller competitors.
tingletech 15y ago
>Who cares if their pricing is a rip off yea, I read it that way at first but I don't think that is what they are saying. "Knockoff" is probably what they meant.
- j45 15y ago
  Fair, but we could find things zendesk is a knock off of, no? Maybe some folks start to believe their own legend too much. Originality and innovation is far rarer than we'd like to think.

wildgift 15y ago

They're all freaking rip offs of Request Tracker. :)

j45 15y ago
I wonder if Zendesk wants to reply to that. :P

DevX101 15y ago

Hey girish, Can you write a post in a week to let us know how many customers you gained from this? If you can find out how many came from ZenDesk, even better.

girishm 15y ago
If you think that will help the HN community,I will. I have another post almost ready where I wanted to share my Series A fundraising experience . But then this happened!

sunir 15y ago

Christian Marth (@cloudgroupsyd) has a lot of explaining for that ridiculous and risible "Indian cowboy" dig. Twenty times worse because he doubled down on it while backpeddling.

j45 15y ago
Normally comments about someone's perceived race (I didn't know there was more than one human race) is reserved for idiots who get their education about the world from tv. The indian cowboy slur against Freshdesk is beyond ignorant. Especially for a technie. They're usually pretty good for researching. Maybe Christian Marth should learn indians invented counting, the pentium chip, hotmail, fiber optics and lots of other things without which our ability to bask in our own glory is not as possible. If they're not perfect, but as we can see from Zendesk, neither are others.
- j45 15y ago
  Thanks downvoters, your hatering feeds my loving. :)
  - pelemele 15y ago
    Wikipedia: Smith came up with the idea for anonymous web-based email in 1995, and worked with his colleague at Apple, Bhatia, to found the company.
    - j45 15y ago
      Here? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hotmail#History http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hotmail#History
Legion 15y ago
Is "Indian cowboy" an insult? Makes them sound like Bollywood badasses to me.
- Hates_ 15y ago

itmag 15y ago

Slightly off-topic: anyone got any ideas on how to innovate in this niche? I am always looking to add to my idea pile :) (See here: http://ideashower.posterous.com http://ideashower.posterous.com)

jtchang 15y ago

Wow what a craptastic response from Zendesk. I think it is fine to have a bit of a spar over features in competing products but you have to keep it civil.

blissofbeing 15y ago

I have used both freshdesk and zendesk and have to say I prefer zendesk, freshdesk offers nothing substantial over zendesk. Having said that I am grateful freshdesk is there to spur some innovation.

BadassFractal 15y ago

Delicious drama. Go on.

kennystone 15y ago

Absolutely a rip-off, but Zendesk was stupid to comment on it.

lucianomt 15y ago

"Rip-off"? It's a help desk service for Pete's sake, not the Xerox GUI or the Page-rank. If Freshdesk can deliver the same value to customers for a fraction of Zendesk's cost, kudos to them.

therandomguy 15y ago

You must be awfully naive to think that there will be no competitors (with similar features) when you build a product which is relatively simple. If it wasn't listed in bold under the "threat" section of your business plan then something is off.

omouse 15y ago

It's funny because they could be co-operating instead of competing and be making much more money by targeting different markets.

preek 15y ago

Quoting Mahatma Gandhi and then immediately writing your name and title under it just seems wrong.

senthilnayagam 15y ago
It is just a closing argument, I don't think it went through multiple iterations

polemic 15y ago

This whole spat just highlights one of those truths that's evident to those in the industry: There is no such thing as a good idea, only good execution. Being first doesn't count for anything. Having a vaguely similar name doesn't count for anything. In the end, only how well your product works, how many users you can attract and retain, and how much value it provides matter.

ericd 15y ago
There is such a thing as a good idea, it's just not very defensible, because once it appears to be working well as a business, the copycats come out of the woodwork.

ecaron 15y ago

As much as I'd like to side with the guy getting picked on (Freshdesk), Zendesk is completely right. Ignoring the interface and naming similarities, you can't complain about ZenDesk on Twitter without multiple Freshdesk spammers bombarding you. Sure there's nothing illegal about it, but they're obnoxious with the "a customer of a rival is complaining, I MUST CONVERT THEM!" concept. (I called them a rip-off of Zendesk back in late October - http://mobile.twitter.com/ecaron/status/123594375560302592 http://mobile.twitter.com/ecaron/status/123594375560302592 - and it took several days for @vshankar90 and @mrgirish to stop harassing me on Twitter...)

shakes 15y ago
Something about the whole freshdesk attitude really rubs me the wrong way. Not saying zendesk is in the right either. I just feel like I read the whole ripoffornot page and cringe. Definitely doesn't seem like the type of company I would want to give my time or money. A couple people complained about their product on twitter and they built a whole page responding to it? In it, they respond to the criticism by making personal attacks against those who complained about them? Really weird. Stop starting flame wars, start making a decent product.
- mavelikara 15y ago
  In an alternate universe it would look like they are complaining about personal attacks on them.
  - shakes 15y ago
    Yeah, I think that's the problem with these kinds of flame wars. Is freshdesk right that the criticism about them was out of line? Yes. Does responding by saying the criticism "reflects poorly on the intellectual ability of the person making the judgement" and "[criticizer should] exercise better judgement and ethics when making negative comments about a company" seem heavy-handed and just as ridiculous as the initial criticism? In my opinion, yes. I've had people call me every name in the book over my projects: a copy-cat, a sad and pathetic developer taking advantage of people and those are just a couple off the top of my head. Did I respond by calling those people ignorant or stupid or unethical? No. I just let it be. I feel good about what I'm doing and I keep trying to make products I'm proud of. Haters gonna hate.

tzs 15y ago

The help desk field is crowded. A quick search reveals that at least half a dozen of the large number of companies in that space have "desk" in their name. Any analyst that thinks that putting "desk" in the name of a help desk product is a "blatant attempt to piggyback" off of another help desk product with "desk" in the name is an idiot or is being paid to make that observation. (In this case, it was the latter, although that doesn't preclude the former).

mstroeck 15y ago

Being first is worthless in and off itself. Execution and customer service are what counts. If you are: a) an entrepreneur; and b) think that "rip-offs" like this one are in some way unethical... ... you need to get your head out of your ass, ASAP! Taking other peoples' great ideas and applying them to make your own product even better is not called "ripping somebody off". That process is called "business".

therandomguy 15y ago

Without much research it sounds like Kepes and Svane got pwnd hard.

jen_h 15y ago

If you're on the right track, competitors are going to rip you off. If you're on the right track, competitors are going to try to poach your customers. If you're on the right track, some competitors are going to talk trash about you when they think no one's looking. Or even when everyone's looking! Using profanity in their Twitter feeds, even! But just because you're on the right track doesn't mean you can't derail; take the high road and let your customers decide. How you deal with unethical competitors is just one mettle-proving battle in a much larger campaign. I sympathize with Zendesk, but there are times where it's wiser to just let your tongue bleed out. Let that extra salt sustain you for the more important battles ahead.

omarchowdhury 15y ago
How is FreshDesk ripping off or poaching the customers of ZenDesk? Last time I checked, it was people connected to ZenDesk who are the one's talking trash.
- dangrossman 15y ago
  > How is FreshDesk ripping off or poaching the customers of ZenDesk? Read some of the other comments in this thread. > Ignoring the interface and naming similarities, you can't complain about ZenDesk on Twitter without multiple Freshdesk spammers bombarding you.
- Stormbringer 15y ago
  Last time I checked, having a feature list where you compare your product with theirs, complete with little green ticks and all, it probably means your software is playing in the same space as theirs. That's the real essence of the "rip off" portion of the accusation. Copying your competitors features... well, that happens a lot. Copying their name and their features, and then acting surprised when people call you on it? That's pretty much textbook douchebaggery. But the copying doesn't stop there, because they even copied the pricing structure! And then they act all upset when they get accused of copying. As for the racially inflamatory remarks... go check the last big discussion on hacker news about the state of the Indian education system. The Indians themselves say that cheating is blatant and pervasive. So while that kind of strawman argument doesn't do much for the intellectual quality of the argument.... you shouldn't complain about being stereotyped if what you are doing conforms exactly to the stereotype. In other words, if the shoe fits, wear it. If not, then throw it.

tbrooks 15y ago

There's a political saying that should be heeded, "never attack downward." You risk more by attacking downward and you have less to gain.

dools 15y ago

Man this is classy. Well done Freshdesk.

jblow 15y ago

Why is this here? How do I downvote the post or recommend it for the "stupid twitter he-said-she-said" category?

teyc 15y ago

HackerNews readers, watch and learn. I'm about deconstruct what is going on. Anybody who brushes off FreshDesk because of its Indian roots is doing FreshDesk a favour. This is a sharp mind at work and it is lethal. FreshDesk is executing the standard modus operandi of upstart against an incumbent. Jobs is a master at it (I'm Apple I'm Microsoft), Calacanis too (remember the SEO controversy, and then the Angel controversy?), and Girish is in the same league. The idea is to frame everything as a controversy, and linkbaits people into discussing it. Notice how a custom domain is used and it is a mini website, not just a blog post? It is a custom website intended to fuel controversy and will drive a lot of SEO juice from bloggers all over the world. Sit back and watch its PageRank explode. Girish is also running very hungry by executing a social media campaign. People may not buy from Twitter, but it buys mindshare. It will be a matter of time before FreshDesk gets a good recall rate, as long as it acts heads above other people. The name itself enjoys co-recognition from Freshbooks as well as ZenDesk. Don't forget, Girish comes with a Zoho pedigree, and this is a company that has bootstrapped itself in India and no one would say the software is anything but world-class. As for ZenDesk, Girish has stuck a fork into Ben Keepes for the lack of disclosure (by the way, I've been a long time reader of CloudAve, always insightful, even if [I now have to perceived it as potentially] biased), and then masterfully weaves ZenDesk CEO's twitter reply with the overtly racist overtone that cloudavesyd (onya Aussies) "Indian cowboys"-tweet. Note that mikkelsvane wasn't party to the "Indian cowboys" comment, but the way it is put, mikkelsvane sounded like he was in agreement (although to anyone who pays close attention to this type of things, he clearly was talking about something else). Girish, if you are reading - I'm in Australia, if you could - please don't turn this into a wider "Australians enjoy India bashing meme". We already have a hard time here, and race doesn't factor much if at all in business. As for ZenDesk, the important thing is to stay above the fray, establish their incumbency, but emphasize their own underdoggedness. Both can play the jingoist game and appeal to emotions.

idspispopd 15y ago
Thank you for pointing out this obvious PR campaign. The whole point of highlighting this exchange, the surrounding publicity, the custom url/etc is to raise the profile and get people to pick sides to generate discussion. This PR technique is as old as the sex tape and about exhausted as it gets. It's the online equivalent of reading "britney spears vs lindsay lohan".

orthecreedence 15y ago

TL;DR: Nu uh!!!! ='''( [Quote comparing us to Gandhi] I think their response was a bit too involved. They were insulted by some blowhard (CEO or not) and instead of rolling with the punches, they write an emotionally-charged, whiny blog post. Not to mention a name is the stupidest thing to fight over. If you want to see a real rip-off, check out github vs bitbucket. Just focus on making your product. If you're doing well, some people may turn into little girls and get jealous and throw tantrums. Ignore them and focus on your goals. Engaging in back and forth like this shows nothing but weakness. EDIT: Just noticed they actually bought a domain for this. Even worse. I don't see good things in the future for Freshdesk if this is how they respond to an affront. Also, why are they comparing themselves to Gandhi? You've got to be kidding me...?

keeptrying 15y ago

There's nothing like bad publicity. I never heard of freshdesk before this. Use the publicity That you've been given freshdesk but don't overdo it!

andrewfelix 15y ago
"There's nothing like bad publicity." Carrier iQ might have something to say about that. I agree though, this is great publicity for FreshDesk. May the best service win.

mmaunder 15y ago

Regarding the initial dispute over trademark: The "desk" part of the name is 'descriptive' and so isn't the strong part of each trademark. The "zen/fresh" parts are arbitrary so are the strong part of each mark. These are distinct, so I don't think there is a valid claim to trademark infringement here. One could argue that "desk" is 'suggestive' in trademark law which makes it a bit stronger, but I don't think that would fly. If one of the companies can show actual instances of customer confusion, then there may be a case as this is an important test in a trademark case. The fact that zen haven't filed suit speaks volumes.

diamondhead 15y ago
It's not all about a name. Freshdesk is an embarrassing copy of Zendesk.
- chairface 15y ago
  A lot of successful products are copies of something else, and more power to them. The company I work for* had a competitor make an "embarrassing copy" of our flagship product, and they managed to get acquired because of it. But you know what? I don't hold it against them, in fact, congrats to them. If anything it validates the space we're in. * I'm deliberately not mentioning the company or product by name, because I don't particularly want to start a subthread about this situation - the particulars would detract from the point I'm making.
  - diamondhead 15y ago
    Does your company's competitor copy even your visual design? What I see here is some bullshit makers trying to promote their product by trolling. This is not the common case. By the way, I'm not against copying. I distribute my website, multiplayerchess.com with WTF License to let people clone it easily. Again, what I see here is bullshit. It's unethical, it's not honest.
    - chairface 15y ago

collypops 15y ago

I think everyone's still getting caught up in the Steve Jobs-ness of the past couple of months. CEO's are acting cocky, cause that's what Steve would have done. They're calling out people who they think have stolen their ideas, cause that's what Steve would have done. What they're completely missing is Steve's greatest lesson: If you want to trample your competitors, just build a better product.

diamondhead 15y ago

What Freshdesk tries to do is redirecting your attention to the similarity of the names. If you really check out Freshdesk, you'll see that they copied Zendesk with no piece of difference!

kumarm 15y ago

If desk part of the name is Zendesk's issue. There exist multi billion companies with desk in their name (Autodesk) much before anyone thought of Zendesk. Freshdesk really did good with their response. I never heard of them before and now anyone talks about Zendesk, I will remember Freshdesk.

foobarbazetc 15y ago

It's kind of irrelevant, since both services are handily beaten by Assistly. Well, Assistly before they got bought and couldn't keep their service up.

stfp 15y ago

Interestingly enough, Freshdesk apparently got started when Zendesk raised their prices - and a comment on HN about how this created a market for a cheaper competitor gave them the initial idea. So, at least partly a rip-off in my book. Source: http://blog.freshdesk.com/the-freshdesk-story-how-a-simple-comment-on-h-0 http://blog.freshdesk.com/the-freshdesk-story-how-a-simple-c...

freejack 15y ago

All I want to know is how this got to be the top story on HackerNews. Its a blatant PR grab on one side, and borderline infantile on the other. Yuck on both counts.

jerhinesmith 15y ago

I was with them up until the quote at the end. At best, it's disputed[1]. It's strange how one small oversight took the wind of the entire argument's sail (so to speak). [1] http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Mohandas_Karamchand_Gandhi#Disputed http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Mohandas_Karamchand_Gandhi#Disp...

dotBen 15y ago

Just to point out this was posted to HN by Girish Mathrubootham himself (the Founder/CEO of FreshDesk). It's worthy of debate, but we'll all feeding this PR stunt (and if some people feel Girish is a troll, then you're feeding a troll too). And usually it's considered 'poor form' to submit your own stuff to HN.

diamondhead 15y ago

If the Hacker News people need a guide to notice how FreshDesk guys are motivated to draw the attention of people by making bullshit, I'm going to stop reading HN. Shame on you the readers voted this article up. This is completely bullshit. If you take a look at the website of Freshdesk, you'll see that they stole the design of Zendesk. They probably did it to draw the attention of Zendesk and gather some angry tweets that can be used in such a way you see. This is the last article I've seen in HN. I'll never enter this website again. Seriously, enough bullshit for a coder. Time to leave HN alone with the embarrassing promoters and gossip girls.

ceejayoz 15y ago
> If you take a look at the website of Freshdesk, you'll see that they stole the design of Zendesk. Are there that many different possible designs for a helpdesk system?
- diamondhead 15y ago
  Did you checked out the designs of two website? Freshdesk even copy the buttons of Zendesk's homepage. What the fuck are you talking about?

tlrobinson 15y ago

I'm less likely to give my money to either of these companies now. I hate when companies publicly bash each other, even if it's in retaliation.

tuckbuck 15y ago

Different possible Zendesk(ZD) responses and their outcomes : - Keep quiet and wishing this episode to go away In my opinion ,this is not the best option.At some point ZD would have to come back with a response,atleast to their customers. Not responding keeps Freshdesk(FD) in driving the discourse and makes ZD look timid. - CEO should make a short tweet ( & no more) ,IMMEDIATELY.It should say " Still stand by my ripoff comment.IMHO ,a crappy ripoff. " . this will prevent this issue from becoming any more sensational and will stop adding fuel to the issue . ZD CEO should stick to his ground by saying that FD IS A RIPOFF The ZD CEO made a subjective,nasty comment about a competitor's product - this happens all the time. ZD DID NOT make any of the nasty comments like "indian cowboys" etc. Ben keepes and the personal comment by ZD is the only connection with ZD. FD is trying to make ZD look guilty by association. - Next they should go on the offensive by targeting FD customers and prove that FD is indeed crappy. eg FD customers will get 6 months free.

sarahsflowers 15y ago

An obvious PR campaign that damages Freshbook's brand perception in my mind. I had no opinion of them before, but this sleazy tactic creates a negative image. I think it helps them to build awareness, but at what cost...

alex_c 15y ago

All I see are a bunch of self-promotional trolls, on both sides of the "issue". Is setting up an entire website really a proportionate response to a dumb tweet? (Obviously, it is if you're stirring up controversy). Seriously, guys... don't feed the trolls. You should know better than this.

dools 15y ago
What's wrong with self promotion? Who else is going to promote you for free?
- alex_c 15y ago
  What's wrong with self promotion? It can make the signal-to-noise ratio unbearable. It cheapens the community, and makes it less interesting and useful. Who else is going to promote you for free? People who genuinely like your product. It's even better than free, they're paying you money.

taylorbuley 15y ago

Related discussion from when this company launched almost a year ago: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2341454 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2341454

jmedwards 15y ago

The whole thing is completely overblown (intentionally so and calculated, of course, by Freshdesk) and was very unnecessary to begin with (on Zendesk's part). As an Indian-started helpdesk software company ourselves, the 'Indian cowboy' comment raised our brows a bit. It was very unfortunate. But then I realised it was said by a relative nobody. That didn't stop it being used to inflame the situation, though. Disclosure: I'm from Kayako.com, competitor, the original Original helpdesk and bemused bystander ;-)

adriarichards 15y ago
We all should realize it's Twitter, home of public flame wars. Agreed. That comment was from a bystander and Freshdesk pulled it into the story to sensationalize. Yes, I remember back in 2005 when there was Kayako, Cerberus, Activecampaign, Request Tracker and PHP Ticket. All required self-hosting of files and maintenance. A cloud based helpdesk just wasn't an option. In the end, customers will select technology that fits their needs. Those needs may be completely technical in nature but more and more, customers are making decisions about technology vendors based on the ethics and relationship with that company. Nice to see you contribute this thread.
- jmedwards 15y ago
  Ditto! I seem to bump into you everywhere. The Internet is a small place. > customers are making decisions about technology vendors based on the ethics and relationship with that company Indeed. In such a crowded space with plenty of the same feature-wise, there is no doubt that the personality of a company (in this case, conveyed over social media) is going to play this kind of role. PS: We were doing SaaS in 2005 :-)

eduardordm 15y ago

Both sides look silly to me. That's exactly the type of emotional reactions you get from young, technical entrepreneurs. EQ is just as important as IQ if you really want to be relevant in business.

marcamillion 15y ago

This is a stroke of PR genius. Agree or not, look at the attention they are getting. The sales numbers will tell whether or not it was worth it - given that this is essentially free...I can't see how it won't be worth it. As for Zendesk, anyway you take it, they have a crisis on their hands.

viveksec 15y ago

I am Indian and I wish we would lighten up. Things aren't pure as milk here either. There are quite a few Indian companies which ask their employees to use Western names while creating online content such as on support forums, twitter accounts, etc.

techhacker 15y ago

Any startup worth its passion will use these opportunities to grab attention (you will be a dumb fool if you don't). So arguing whether Freshdesk is right vs. wrong in putting up this site doesn't really mean a lot. The only person who has lost credibility in this entire episode is Ben Kepes (ofcourse he started the fire).

billpatrianakos 15y ago

This is going to hurt Freshdesk more than help. Creating that site was an immature move. They're framing it like this is an issue that anyone besides the guys at Freshdesk cares about. And calling the site "ripoffornot"? Cheap move. I honestly thought I was about to visit a website dedicated to comparing products and deducing who is ripping of who. Then I saw it and I thought "damn, what a cheap, crybaby, attention whore move". Freshdesk is playing dirty all while trying to convince us that it's the other guys that are playing dirty. I hope we all see through the BS. You don't win hearts and minds by being a bully and they're being bullies while trying to look like victims. When I see a company do something like this, that's so cheap and obvious, I immediately wonder how desperate they are. They're also doing themselves a disservice by calling attention to the fact that they've been called a ripoff. People's first reactions will be to wonder why they feel the need to defend themselves so vehemently against that sort of thing. If they're not a ripoff then why do they have to work so hard to convince me otherwise? Am I saying they're a ripoff of Zendesk? No, but their actions have now put the idea in my head. Major backfire.

avlesh-singh 15y ago

Blame it on me being a dyslexic kid. What is there to rip-off? I fail to understand what is rocket science in Zendesk that any other customer support tool should not have? Zendesk's reactions are uncalled for.

yogrish 15y ago

A fitting response from Freshdesk.Zendesk has to pay for its badmouthing. They started it and Freshdesk is milking the controversy surrounding. May be FD scripted this long before, expecting this attack from zendesk.

nethsix 15y ago

I'm not arguing for either but trying to state a point. Putting a side-by-side feature list face-off showing you have more features than the incumbent does not in anyway, prove that you are not a rip off. In fact, it probably proves that you are and just trying to outdo the incumbent. There would be little to compare if both were playing in a different area.

szcukg 15y ago

Yawn

nemik 15y ago

YSoapOperas.

gws 15y ago

Very well executed response. If they can execute that well on this I can imagine that they are even better on product development and customer service. I don't understand the comments against their response. I find shameful that a paid blogger tweet against a competitor with a subjective attack without disclosing the conflict of interest and that the guy paying the blogger chimes in insulting the competitor. And Ghandi's quote at the end fit so well, I am still smiling :)

Luyt 15y ago
Gandhi, not Ghandi ;-) A very common mistake. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gandhi http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gandhi

paraschopra 15y ago

As CEO of another Indian startup, I am furious that anybody would drag nationality into this. There are no boundaries on Internet, and certainly Girish rightly says that commenting on nationality simply reflects poorly on his own maturity level. Aren't most of the products rip-off in some sense? Take Apple, Google, Yahoo or any other company out there. Rarely, if ever, a company comes up with something totally new and innovative that it doesn't resemble anything else in the market. A new category, that is. ZenDesk didn't invent helpdesk system. Instead, like all other companies, they are evolving and perfecting helpdesk systems. FreshDesk is also an attempt at this, (and so is our product Visual Website Optimizer for A/B testing tools). I wish companies compete in a professional and respectful way, this war of words simply disgusts me.

haxplorer 15y ago

http://fakeoffice.org/ http://fakeoffice.org/ - This is how Zoho took advantage of the words of Ron Markezich to get some good publicity and recall against MS Office. No wonder Girish who is an ex-Zoho did the same with this tweet. Seems to be a nice way to market your product as a replacement to the current market leader.

nickpp 15y ago

Zendesk CEO was stupid for paying them attention. Freshdesk is SCUM. This kind of strategy, of generating controversy and creating "noise" around your company is rooted in the "there is no such thing as bad publicity" belief. It's immoral, and ungentlemanly. And yes, it is very common with 3rd world companies. I've seen it before. Very often their products ARE rip-off of established market products as well (no idea if this is true in this case though). I suppose it comes from the social corruption and "everything goes" that surrounds life around there. Basically lack of civilization. It would be very sad if the market rewards them instead of the companies focused on developing a good product, improving it and keeping an atmosphere of cooperation and civility in the industry.

middus 15y ago
So without knowing if this is true in this case though you call them SCUM? Way to go...

deleted 15y ago

[deleted]

benkepes 15y ago

OK - here goes.... My tweet, "“Seems to me that #Freshdesk is an unethical troll trying to cash in on #Zendesk‘s good name. But that could just be me….”" was an off the cuff remark. I still think Freshdesk is trying to leverage Zendesk's brand but hey, hat's just my opinion. I do note that other folks in here have commented on the similartiies between the two products, I've reached out to Freshdesk asking to ommuncate with them to review their product - am looking forward to comparing them with Zendesk. The image on Freshdesk's site showing a Zendesk post with my name on it actually relates to a CloudCamp that Zendesk was helping to spread the message about earlier this year. I run CloudCamps in aus/nz (for free, as in gratis, voluntary, unpaid). So that image is kind of irrelevant - it's kind of like saying that a Red Cross volunteer is somehow in the pocket of a large corporate that sponsors the Red Cross. That said I did do some writing for Zendesk for their blog - around a year or so ago and not since then. So saying I'm a paid blogger for zendesk is kind of like saying I'm an advocate for mcdonalds since I worked there when I was 15. And for anyone who really cares, I have possibly the most complete disclosure statement of current and past engagements - feel free to cross check any other comments I make... http://www.diversity.net.nz/diversity_analysis/ben_kepes_disclosure/ http://www.diversity.net.nz/diversity_analysis/ben_kepes_dis... Finally, in relation to the comments from Christian Marth about he country of origin of the Freshdesk founders - that I obviously don't condone. Those who know me will see (from the size of my nose if nothing else) that I'm Jewish. My mother spent time in a concentration camp and my Grandfather was murdered by the Nazis because he was Jewish - with that background it's unlikely that I'd be a candidate for pulling the race card. /out

Krish123456 15y ago

I started the day off sympathizing with them because I thought Ben was not right in saying they ripped off the name. But now Freshdesk has proved that many of the commentators here are right. They are spammers and they even spam your Google Docs. See the screenshot here. http://twitpic.com/7p0m3o http://twitpic.com/7p0m3o

Krish123456 15y ago
Looks like Freshdesk is not the culprit but Google. It automatically adds docs I visit on the web to my list. I think I owe freshdesk an apology for thinking that they are spamming me.

vbrendel 15y ago

Freshdesk is a cheap clone. I've tried it. Once all the dust settles, it will be clear that Freshbooks IS a complete rip-off of Zendesk. 'RipoffOrNot.org'... errrm yes. You could think of worse products to rip off, so in that sense they've done well. I'm not going to point out the obvious stolen elements. Anyone can see the app is not just inspired, but clearly deliberately copied. They've also spent a lot of time reading all the feature requests on the Zendesk forums. There is also an import feature from only one competing helpdesk product. Guess which one. At the end of the day, Freshdesk is built exactly like any Zoho product (Girish worked for Zoho). And based on how it feels it might as well be a Zoho product: feature wise it ticks a heap of boxes and it's low cost. But to live with it has many limitations that won't stand up in actual real life, as in this case, the running of a help desk. It's seriously lacking workflow, custom widgets, the 100+ 3rd party integrations, and plenty more settings and customizations that make Zendesk what it is. Zendesk has many decent alternatives but Freshdesk isn't one of them. If you're actually considering Freshdesk there are a huge amount of alternatives including freemium ones. Mojo Helpdesk comes to mind but really the web is full of them.