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Apple warns suppliers to follow China rules on 'Taiwan' labeling

408 points by lucasjans 4y ago

przemub 4y ago
Trade is really a matter for the government, and the US (sadly) adheres to the One China Policy. This just reflects the official policy, and having the companies pick this fight instead of the country is hypocritical.
- chmod600 4y ago
  There's some nuance here. We have free speech in the US. Freedom means choice, so there's still an obligation to act morally. China is more than willing to manipulate cultural messages with money, so we need some kind of cultural counter to that. For instance, see how China manipulated the NBA and Activision Blizzard during the Hong Kong protests.
  - kshacker 4y ago
    As part of free speech, can a company from somewhere in south send out parts in boxes with confederate flag on the box? We make decisions to curtail free speech everyday so how's this different?
    - spookthesunset 4y ago
      I’m sure they could and I bet some do. How that maps into sales is a different story.
    - vladvasiliu 4y ago
      I'm not American, so I may be missing some details, but is that actually not allowed? Or is it rather the case that some people may not like that, so companies try to avoid upsetting some customers?
      - garettmd 4y ago
        Yes, that is totally allowed. It is trivial to find products with the confederate flag printed on them.
      - kshacker 4y ago
        As others said, it may be allowed, and I did not know either ways but it was a rhetorical point. Now even if it is allowed, suppose this was a Federal government procurement. Will Feds buy something with such flags? Nope. Once that happens, it can be easily demagogued.
        reaperducer 4y ago
        suppose this was a Federal government procurement. Will Feds buy something with such flags? Nope. Actually, probably. If the item meets the specs and the price, that's what matters. Just as there is no shortage of federal buildings, and even military installations named after Confederate things. This HN discussion illustrates how bringing up Confederate themes, you can really tell when someone isn't an American.
        mwint 4y ago
        I’m an American, but not involved in any kind of federal purchasing. I would have assumed that a federal purchaser would make up a reason not to buy my otherwise-perfect product if it had some unpopular statement on it, like a Confederate flag. Do you know of any counter examples where a company was able to make a successful bid with a product that had good fit, but an inconvenient non-functional addon like that?
      - bee_rider 4y ago
        Yes, we can put whatever odious symbols on our products. The Confederate flag is a bit weird because there's enough of the population that apparently doesn't see it that way, so some stores will even display products that have it. (Personally I find it to be an awful symbol and wouldn't stick around if I saw it displayed). An example that is more like what you've described is something like a Nazi swastika -- technically you can sell something with a swastika on it (I'm 99.9% sure) but almost no stores would be willing to put it on the shelves, certainly no major chains or whatever.
    - horsawlarway 4y ago
      > As part of free speech, can a company from somewhere in south send out parts in boxes with confederate flag on the box? Yes. Yes they can.
  - Aunche 4y ago
    > China is more than willing to manipulate cultural messages with money, so we need some kind of cultural counter to that. No we don't. China may act peeved that foreign companies are virtue signalling, but they'd secretly relish at the opportunity of finding an excuse to boycott or ban these foreign products, so that their wealth stays circulating in their domestic economy. Look at what happened to Nike and H&M after they voiced concerns about Xinjiang. The CPC organized consumer boycotts of these companies, but happily allowed factories to continue to sell their goods to sell to them. China itself recognizes that it only makes sense to virtue signal when it is economical to do so. The NBA and Blizzard made the correct decision to kowtow to China, economically as well as morally. Getting them kicked out of China does not help Hong Kong, but would threaten to free world as the balance of trade would make us even more beholden to China. In a complicated, globalized world, marginal thinking is the only option.
    - pphysch 4y ago
      > Look at what happened to Nike and H&M after they voiced concerns about Xinjiang. A global company that wastes resources engaging in hysterically overblown State Department propaganda is a company that compromises the credibility of its leadership to make intelligent strategic decisions. We're out of the unipolar era, and companies that are stuck it in it will get outpaced.
      - cromwellian 4y ago
        I think Google proved you can live and thrive without the China domestic market.
        pphysch 4y ago
        Google doesn't have any full-spectrum peer competitors, much less any that are operating in both PRC and USA.
        cromwellian 4y ago
        Apple didn't either (for premium smartphones) until, arguably, basing their manufacturing there helped standup a large infrastructure that could easily be turned around to make Huawei, Xiaomi, and other devices. If Apple had somehow managed to make iPhones in Vietnam instead of Shenzhen, would they really be facing the premium tier competition from Huawei they face in the EU?
  - trasz 4y ago
    >China is more than willing to manipulate cultural messages with money Compared to a country where companies literally buy congressman, and freely manipulate public opinion for the highest bidder?
    - cromwellian 4y ago
      But competing messages are allowed so while the rich manipulate public opinion, they are not unitary and other voices are still heard, wealthy battling wealthy and large social movements too. These false equivalence’s are really tiring. China’s control of public speech and media is on a wholly different plane. It’s not even remotely comparable to manipulation in the West.
      - trasz 4y ago
        So how’s China different here? Or do you really believe there are no conflicting opinions there? I mean, some people believe there are no public elections in China, so…
        cromwellian 4y ago
        Are we really doing this? Are you really serious? Besides the fact that most of the country is firewalled off from foreign media, and besides the fact that only one political party is allowed, and besides the fact that political prisoners are routinely jailed for nothing more than denying a government narrative, holding mock polls, publishing or assembling (and I don't mean held for a day or two like in the West, but jailed for years) Can a US citizen go on media, or organize a public protest, in which they call Joe Biden or Donald Trump, bad people, with bad policies? Yes, US citizens can publicly call for the highest level politicians in the land to lose their jobs, and with no real repercussions. People on social media can scream "Let's Go Brandon" or meme like crazy about Biden. But Weibo, Wechat, Bilibili, Douyin, frequently censor even the most milquetoast sarcastic remarks about the CCP or Xi, including the infamous Baozi and Panda blocks. Can a famous Chinese public individual/celebrity/intellectual, in China, tell a huge crowd and media, that I think the CCP are horrible and that Xi Jinping needs to be booted from power? Stop trying to draw false equivalencies. > I mean, some people believe there are no public elections in China, so… Sure, where the CCP select and approve the candidates, control the election progress, and there is no free media coverage or transparency free of state control. Practically no real international election monitors. And no direct nationwide elections. Rather, a many levels of indirection process, effectively controlled by a President for life. Let's see what happens at Beidaihe and the 20th national congress in November. Think anything will change? I don't. There's practical no competing, transparent system in these so called 'democratic elections' making them in effort, a Potemkin village with the veneer of popular will, but in fact, nothing of the sort. There are about 50 individuals in the US congress worth more than $10 million, and not a single one who is a billionaire. Trump was the only billionaire to have office. Meanwhile, there are 100+ CCP members in the Congress who are billionaires. Does this look like a system chosen by public debate, awareness, and discussion? For all of the flaws in the Western systems, and there are a vast number, it is really tiring seeing tankies try to say "everything's the same" with zero nuance, as if none of it matters.
- sneak 4y ago
  I disagree. The largest company in the country is not a passive participant in the government's policies.
  - spookthesunset 4y ago
    True. But as a tech company it is much better they fight tech battles like privacy policy, acceptable law enforcement behavior, acceptable tracker use, etc. Let some other company fight the battle over what to put on the label.
    - VBprogrammer 4y ago
      They aren't just a tech company though are they? They are one of the largest companies in the world with an annual turnover comparable with small countries like Denmark or Norway.
      - spookthesunset 4y ago
        That is true but they aren’t a country. They don’t set international policy. They have little to gain and a lot to lose picking this battle. For one thing they have close business relationships with people in both china and Taiwan. They have employees in both countries. Vendors. Human relationships. Those might get kinda awkward if they picked this battle. And what do they gain picking this battle? A few internet points? It’s just not worth it.
- trasz 4y ago
  >US (sadly) adheres to the One China Policy How terrible of them to adhere to the policy Taiwanese themselves prefer! EDIT: To clarify, from what I remember the public opinion on Taiwan independence has been steadily shifting and now it’s the majority’s preference compared to becoming another province of China. At the same time the vast majority of Taiwanese prefer the option “let’s keep things as they are now”, if that option is available in the poll. Taiwan does have some special ties with continental China, particularly in economy and travel; it’s more like EU than two entirely unrelated countries.
  - outworlder 4y ago
    Citation needed. Either that or... are you talking about Taiwan and West Taiwan?
  - przemub 4y ago
    Do they? Pan-Greens have a majority now. Mind that Taiwanese politics is not something I know a lot about, so I'm happy to be corrected.
  - tuxoko 4y ago
    First, US's One China policy is US's policy. It makes no sense for Taiwanese to adheres to a US's policy. Second, US's One China policy is only a word play. It acknowledges China's position regarding Taiwan but doesn't actually agree or disagree to it. That's why it still provide defense for Taiwan. Third, your comment about public opinion is a complete nonsense. Taiwan is a democratic nation. If the majority prefers being a province of China, it would have already voted to do so. And the only reason people choose to "keep things as they are now" is to avoid provoking a war with China.
    - trasz 4y ago
      First, it’s China’s policy that US claims to adhere to. Second - yeah, your point being? Third - yes, it is a democratic nation, and the prevalent majority of that democratic nation wants to keep things as they are, as evidenced by polls[1]. This nation doesn’t want war. Compare this with the standard modus operandi of US. Sometimes they are the good guys, sometime they kill a million people in Middle East, but it’s always about a war somewhere far away from US. 1. Notice how different this is from Ukraine. Ever wondered why there are so many… persons equating China and Russia?
- birdyrooster 4y ago
  I don't see how it is sad. The One China Policy is simultaneously amicable with the PRC and ROC constitutions. They both claim One China and the United States acknowledges that there is One China, but the United States makes no claims no preference for either government in resolving the Taiwanese straight conflict as it is a civil war.
  - YPPH 4y ago
    What you're missing is that "One China" is now a mere diplomatic fiction. The only reason the US and Taiwan insist on it is to avoid unnecessary escalation with China. But, as a matter of fact, Taiwan is a completely independent, sovereign and autonomous state, over which China has absolutely no legal or practical control.
    - sofixa 4y ago
      That's true, but as far as the world is concerned, Taiwan is de jure part of the One and only China, which is the PRC as of now. And of course the PRC has zero desire to recognise the fact that Taiwan is an independent country. So the status quo here, same as the one between the Koreas, is basically the only way things can remain peaceful until some drastic change happens (e.g. the PRC falling).
    - birdyrooster 4y ago
      And that is fiction which has held the peace for 70 years
  - peoplefromibiza 4y ago
    US, sadly, have always supported the right wingers against "the commies", no matter the consequences. When they started to support Taiwan in 1945, Chiang Kai-shek was a nationalist who imposed the martial law on Taiwan for 40 years (until the end of the 1980s!), waiting to strike back and regain "full control of China" (that's how One China principle was born, RPC has nothing to do with it! it was even in the ROC Constitution until 1992!) Nixon changed everything when he visited mainland China and talked to Mao in 1972, that lead to the US-China trade agreement of 1979. Until 1972 US had an agreement with Chiang Kai-shek, Taiwan "temporary" government was the only recognized China, they were bound to protect it in case of attack, they supported his claims of reunification under his ruling and the UN seat for China was that of Taiwan, even though 99% of the people of China lived on mainland. USA has been very ambiguous since then, on one side they acknowledges that all Chinese on either side of the Taiwan Strait maintain there is but one China and that Taiwan is a part of China and does not challenge that position, on the other they are formally Taiwan allied, but there's no more an US embassy in Taipei and no Taiwanese embassy in Washington. They even moved their "One China" capital from Taipei to Beijing. Reminder: indigenous people of Taiwan are only 2% of the original population, the rest is 97% Han Chinese, so one China is quite an accurate description. They only differ about the alliances they made, but the mythological example of freedom for Asian countries that Taiwan should be, is just a myth https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2016/12/nanjing/622671/ https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2016/12/na... (2016, long before the actual crisis) Also, 2021 referendum on pork ban from USA shows that to keep having the support of USA, the ruling political party in Taiwan has to to satisfy their demands, even when it (potentially) poses a risk for the entire Taiwanese population. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-12-16/pork-referendum-poses-test-for-strengthening-u-s-taiwan-ties https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-12-16/pork-refe... USA are not there as mere observers, but as strongly interested party, with deep economical interests. And to exploit cheap labor, that made the fortune of Apple with their iPhone. The truth is that until not long ago, Taiwan had access to better weapons thanks to the USA that compensated for the smaller army. Their technological superiority combined with the threat of US navy showing up at the border kept China at bay and forced them to think twice before trying to retake Taiwan. Now that's not true anymore.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
aaaaaaaaaaab 4y ago
They should make their chips at CSMC instead of TSMC then.
- smoldesu 4y ago
  "Introducing the Apple M3, the first PC chip made on China's 28nm low-yield node!"
TheChaplain 4y ago
Doesn't surprise me. Money talks louder than sovereignty of some state. :(
lucasjans 4y ago
This company pretends it has the moral high ground, but like most of corporate America, they always have an eye on Chinese profits. America's future is at stake and we won't wake up until it's too late.
- elil17 4y ago
  Does it matter what Apple does? I would think that reading "Made in Chinese Tiapei" only serves as a reminder of China's policy.
  - mountainb 4y ago
    Apple will knuckle under in about 3 seconds when the war starts and do whatever the US government asks them to do.
    - shoulderfake 4y ago
    - sneak 4y ago
      100% of Apple's important chips depend on Taiwan continuing to be Taiwan (and TSMC continuing to be TSMC). ~100% of Apple's manufacturing depends on China continuing to permit hundreds of thousands of Chinese nationals in Chinese factories (Foxconn's plants in Zhengzhou and elsewhere) building Apple products. I'm not sure what you mean by "knuckle under" in this context, but Apple is, today, wholly dependent upon Taiwanese and Chinese manufacturing (for chips, and assembly, respectively). If there is a war between China and Taiwan, or China and the US, Apple stands to lose the most of any single organization, I think.
      - mountainb 4y ago
        Yes, they are dependent on China and Taiwan, but they will knuckle under to the point to which the company is seriously disrupted if not destroyed once the war starts. I think it behooves everyone at Apple to prepare for the war and to figure out likely alternatives, and to also assume that the usual grey market way of getting around it will be anticipated by the federal government, and under war conditions the federal government may have a harsher point of view on it than they usually would with country of origin manipulation. Even if the US wins a war over Taiwan, it'd probably take a long time to resolve, and trade would be disrupted for long enough that nothing is getting off the island until peace is re-established. Right now, if nothing changes with the US-China trajectory, war is coming. If the trajectory changes, that might change.
earthboundkid 4y ago
Why is this interesting? Taiwan has to compete in the Olympics as Chinese Taipei or whatever. Yeah, any place that China can influence, it makes Taiwan call itself China.
- Pulcinella 4y ago
  Taiwan calls itself China. The official name is literally the Republic of China. Both China and Taiwan agree that there is just one China, but disagree about what formal unification would or should look like. Edit: The USA also agrees that there is one China, at least officially, though it’s not like the US doesn’t like to change its mind frequently. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shanghai_Communiqué https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shanghai_Communiqué
  - happytoexplain 4y ago
    The USA officially agrees - which is a critical qualifier when talking about political entities. The USA, colloquially, is miles from agreeing.
  - warning26 4y ago
    Everyone knows Taiwan is its own country, the US et all merely engage in the "one china" pretense to keep the PRC happy.
    - sneak 4y ago
      Yes, but the own country on the island of Taiwan is called the "Republic of China".
      - earthboundkid 4y ago
        Because it would be a provocation to war to change the name to Taiwan. Politicians in Taiwan have tried to change the name and always chickened out because it’s a dumb reason to trigger an invasion.
  - 4y ago
Overtonwindow 4y ago
This is ridiculous. Taiwan is a free and independent country. Shame on Apple.
- bell-cot 4y ago
  Perhaps. OTOH, my experience (modest n) is that a fairly large percentage of people are happy to say "Shame on Apple" for such things. Vs. a near-zero percentage are actually willing to avoid buying products made in (mainland) China, or with major components made there. Talk was cheap long before "Performative Activism" had its own Wikipedia page.
  - BitwiseFool 4y ago
    >" Vs. a near-zero percentage are actually willing to avoid buying products made in (mainland) China, or with major components made there." Personally, I make a sincere effort to buy products that aren't made in China. I've been doing this for years but unfortunately avoiding things made in China is surprisingly difficult. When I end up buying products made in China, it isn't because of a lack of conviction, it is because there was no alternative I could find.
  - 2OEH8eoCRo0 4y ago
    But how can I live without their 1% better touch pad and build quality?
  - hunterb123 4y ago
    So OP can't shame Apple for this moral behavior because others buy Apple's product? Would you apply that same standard and does it hold up to other scenarios? If people were buying textile products from the slave trade, would you say "perhaps" when other (or the same) people shamed those industries for supporting slave labor? If people were buying nuts and fruit from exploited migrant workers, would you still be able to shame the industries for better conditions or to hire minimal wage workers? If people were buying cobalt or lithium mined from child slaves would you be able to shame those industries into sourcing minerals in a more humane way even though people buy EVs? Or because people bought those products those companies/industries have immunity from criticism? You cannot avoid products made in China because of the current status quo for the same reasons you couldn't avoid textiles made with slave cotton. That doesn't mean you can't advocate change to the status quo.
nhanhi 4y ago
https://archive.ph/mZaR9 https://archive.ph/mZaR9
BiteCode_dev 4y ago
I have a friend working for a company whose biggest clients are in the Emirates. One of said client is the government, and it is asking them to buy some very specific equipment, knowing fully well this equipment is only sold in Israel. However, the Emirates cannot trade with Israel, and refuse to pay for any equipment labelled as coming from this country. Calling one of the officials, they asked for a solution. They told them to ship everything first to the UK. There, they should unpack every single object, and package them again with different country labels. Once the box has passed custom, nobody will raise the topic about the equipment origin. And so this is what they do.
- peoplefromibiza 4y ago
  > However, the Emirates cannot trade with Israel, that's a ruse used only internally to foment hatred against "the Jews" https://foreignpolicy.com/2016/08/25/the-uae-spends-big-on-israeli-spyware-to-listen-in-on-a-dissident/ https://foreignpolicy.com/2016/08/25/the-uae-spends-big-on-i...
  - lostlogin 4y ago
    It is possible to disagree with a state and it’s policies while being fine with its people. I’d put quite a few countries in this category. I’m pretty confident that’s not what the UAE are doing, and don’t support them.
- josephcsible 4y ago
  > the Emirates cannot trade with Israel Is "cannot" really accurate? Isn't it more like they voluntarily chose not to do so?
  - ericbarrett 4y ago
    I read that as shorthand for "Emirates-based entities cannot..."
  - kps 4y ago
    Used to. Israel and UAE normalized relations in 2020 and signed a free trade deal this spring.
BudaDude 4y ago
This should honestly be picked up by a larger news organization. If the US is serious about protecting Taiwan and bringing more chips to the US, Apple should be shamed for choosing Chinese profits. Imagine if Apple told Ukraine employees to label Russia on their badges.
- INTPenis 4y ago
  It amazes me how quickly people online are willing to start ww3. It seems like it's not the world leaders we have to worry about, it's the fucking commenters. Yes it should be picked up but the US can't just go in swinging with China. Nobody wins.
  - MichaelBurge 4y ago
    Apple's market cap is $2.7 trillion. How hard could it be for them to get a few nuclear-powered aircraft carriers and tell China, "We refuse to comply with your labeling requirements. Just try to stop us"?
    - wongarsu 4y ago
      Apple has about $40 billion cash on hand. A nuclear-powered aircraft carrier is about $10 billion, plus another 6 billion for the aircraft (taking a Nimitz class with 90 Super Hornets). Add in ammunition, crew, training, support craft, operational expenses. Buying more than one would seriously strain Apple's budget. And all of that to expose it to China's anti-ship missiles and dare them to shoot. Seems like a terrible way to spend that money.
      - sour-taste 4y ago
        Not to mention that I'm pretty sure the USA doesn't want it's private companies running their own Navies and going toe to toe with foreign forces
  - BudaDude 4y ago
    To be fair, China was ready to start WWIII a few days ago.
leephillips 4y ago
What’s wrong with the original title? The re-written title here makes no grammatical sense and misrepresents the story.
- lucasjans 4y ago
  Agreed. This new title strikes me as washing away the true meaning of what's happening. There's no mention of Taiwan, which is is specifically related to. Who can rewrite titles on hackernews? Can we get an explanation who made the change and why?
bamboozled 4y ago
I'm done with Apple.
amelius 4y ago
Why not put "US" on the shipments instead, as it's closer to the truth?
- axus 4y ago
  If Trump had exchanged Taiwan for Puerto Rico, we could, but missed opportunity.
  - yieldcrv 4y ago
    yeahhh I'm going to need Puerto Rico's parallel tax structure for as long as possible so if we could not alter their territorial status and also keep Congress split on everything that would be greeaaaaat just keep posting "red waaaave" on your instagram account and "blue waaaave" on your twitter account so that everyone stays in their respective echo chamber, I think at least till 2025 would be good for me, I'll probably have cleared all my US earnings from taxes and left (w/ a different excuse) by then
    - trebbble 4y ago
      Clicks the "learn more" button
      - yieldcrv 4y ago
        So US citizens have to pretty much just ignore the entire offshore industry for legal tax avoidance, but fortunately the US offers US citizens many ways to not have a tax bill. Some US territories have a parallel tax system that isn't underneath the Federal Government, whereas states are under the federal government, so a resident of a state has to pay state taxes as well as federal taxes. Although there are "categories" of types of territories, these categories are pretty much made up on the spot and each territory is its own separate case, as the US only has 5 inhabited territories all with unique tax and citizenship conditions. Long story short, Puerto Rico has a tax system that is treated like being a foreign country, but checks the box for total Federal US tax compliance. Under Puerto Rico's "Act 60", which mainland transplants to Puerto Rico can apply for, many transactions are taxed at zero percent, most importantly capital gains (for trades initiated while on the island and sold on the island, pro-rata based on time for longer held positions), while "PR sourced income" is taxed at 5%, or an up-to-4% corporate tax rate (so the same activity done through a corporation is taxed lower, and the dividends are tax free, and the sales of shares are tax free) So if you want to clear all your money in the eyes of the Federal government, then living a year in PR to execute or finish a specific plan is good. Congress has a little control over PR, but its more beneficial and easier to perpetuate division in Congress, at least at this class level, than pretend to have some other trendy cause that your friends want you to espouse. and finally I made a reference to renouncing citizenship. If you leave "for tax purposes" then there exit taxes. So the goal is to keep more of your money at your own discretion, and then leave for any reason that isn't "tax purposes".
galleywest200 4y ago
It looks to me that this is only shipments from Taiwan to China > Apple has asked suppliers to ensure that shipments from Taiwan to China strictly comply with Chinese customs regulations after a recent visit by senior U.S. lawmaker Nancy Pelosi to Taipei stoked fears of rising trade barriers. Am I missing something? I do not see a requirement that all package from Taiwan say they are from China.
- SpicyLemonZest 4y ago
  You're missing the biggest practical source of fake news: people are absolutely determined to comment on articles after reading only the headline, and headlines optimize for attention-grabbing rather than informativeness. You're completely right about what actually happened here, but the majority of people who see this while it's on the front page are going to walk away confident that Apple did some much more problematic thing.
  - smoldesu 4y ago
    I think most of us are here to enjoy the irony of a "progressive" company laying down idly while China treats them like a lapdog.
president 4y ago
Fiduciary responsibility over moral responsibility is what killed America
dhx 4y ago
I wonder what Apple would now list if updating their FY20 supplier list[1] which simply states "Taiwan" for manufacturing locations for many of their suppliers. Some of the suppliers in the list[1] operate manufacturing facilities in both mainland China and Taiwan, and their websites refer to a combination of "China", "Taiwan" and "R.O.C.". I do wonder how difficult it would be for these companies to deal with both governments at the same time! For example, the visa policies of each government towards each other appear to be very restrictive[2][3]. [1] https://www.apple.com/supplier-responsibility/pdf/Apple-Supplier-List.pdf https://www.apple.com/supplier-responsibility/pdf/Apple-Supp... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visa_policy_of_Taiwan#Chinese_travelers_domiciled_in_Mainland_China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visa_policy_of_Taiwan#Chinese_... [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visa_policy_of_mainland_China#Taiwan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visa_policy_of_mainland_China#...
FirstLvR 4y ago
I HATE the fact technology has to be influenced so much by politics. The only reason we are not travel the stars by now is our own fault.
- BudaDude 4y ago
  Agreed. It's sad that we as species just can't get it right when it comes to getting along with each-other.
- nicce 4y ago
  U.S. made nuclear submarines are really interesting from that point of view. We had technology in 1960s to make reactors which need to be refilled once per 15-20 years without significant incidents. But because of the fear of misuse and technological theft, we have energy crisis.
- msabalau 4y ago
  We don't have interstellar travel because Apple's suppliers have to meet labeling requirements? But yes, there are nice things that the money that goes to defense budgets could be spent on, if there weren't authoritarian leaders making irredentist threats against democracies.
  - mensetmanusman 4y ago
    If the trillions that was spent on defence was spent on a space station, there is an argument to be made.
alexnewman 4y ago
But i thought 1 china :). Seriously was this an issue, of people mismarking components?
NhanH 4y ago
Officially, Taiwan agree to the “One China” stance. They even agree in the 1992 consensus that RoC and PRC does not agree who is the legitimate government of both mainland China and Taiwan islands, but the One China stance itself is not something in dispute. The constitution of Taiwan claims sovereignty over mainland China, although they added an amendment to differentiate “free area” citizens (Taiwanese) and citizens under control of the “rebellions” (I don’t know if they removed the specific wording yet). You could argue that Taiwan have to agree to One China by force, as the PRC has made it very clear that the PLA (People’s liberation Army) is invading if Taiwan abandon the stance. With that in mind, Taiwan and China situation is really similar to a civil war, Taiwan is just a secessionist. And until the situation is resolved, there is nothing wrong with label it “Taiwan, China”
- eating555 4y ago
  Current government doesn't agree on the 1992 consensus. The agreement on "One China" doesn't exist. Discalaimer: I live here.
- mmis1000 4y ago
  > is invading if Taiwan abandon the stance. That is never the truth. They threat for armed attack like since forever 'everyday'. To the point people here just outright ignore their claim and do their daily work. If somebody even be serious about that. Then they would need live in the air-raid shelter everyday. But who would do that? > similar to a civil war Hell no, in my 30 years of live, I have nothing to do with PRC at all except saw them on the TV that they will never give up attacking Taiwan. Discalaimer: I live here.
  - joenot443 4y ago
    Thanks for chiming in! Always great to hear perspectives from people actually living in the places being discussed. If you had to guess, where do you expect TW/CH relations to be in 50 years? Do you still expect there to be disagreement between the two governments on respective borders and sovereignty or will they someday reach a fully amicable agreement?
TheMagicHorsey 4y ago
It will be painful. It will cause huge economic disruption. There will be a fall in living standards and severe inflation. But, it's time for US companies to pull out of China. The moral imperative to help China rise out of poverty through trade is done. They are no longer a poor country. Now we are compromising our values for something stupid ... for cheaper iPhones. Long term our Grandchildren will all be under the boots of the CPC if we don't take the pain now. I'm not suggesting we war with China. I'm suggesting we remove their leverage from our economies. As long as EU and America need Chinese goods to subsidize their massively irresponsible fiscal policies, Chinese dictators will have leverage over Western people. You have to sacrifice material well-being for freedom at the right time, or you will have neither in a generation.
- sam36 4y ago
  I've thought this for the last 10+ years or so. I even tried to not buy anything that was "made in china" for many years. I'm so amazed that people were fine with the recent higher gas prices because it would be helping the war in Ukraine. But yet no one wants to end trade with china because it would rise the costs of goods. Just 40 years ago there was literally nothing coming from china. They flood our markets with cheap crap that is made by burning coal, nobody cares that the end product breaks in mere days or weeks because you can just "buy another one". They've ruined the entire aftermarket parts industry for cars as almost every replacement part you buy at autozone is a chinese knockoff that will leave you stranded on the side of the road (my family runs an auto shop, the parts reliability issues are insane while autozone stock goes to the moon). And then the main issue is all this cheapness is possible because workers are paid pennies a day and take meth so they can work 15 hour days doing tedious hand assembly because the person labor is cheaper than using a machine to automate. And now our media is flooded with news bites about how oppressive and racist america is while china gets away with literal slavery and everyone there believes all non-chinese are inferior. Screw these people and their government.
- bamboozled 4y ago
  We need to fix the systems that allowed and made this decision in the first place or another stupid one will follow. In some ways, and I know this will be unpopular, but is it free market capitalism that enabled the CCP to rise to such power? ie "You're freedom to choose cheap shit"? I'm certainly not arguing for communism ourselves, but I mean, China didn't force us to move manufacturing there, won't it just happen again ?
yuubi 4y ago
i recently got an electronic product that said 中國 instead of 中国 on the label (traditional vs simplified characters). i wonder if this was meant as a subtle indication that it was from traditional-character land.
- ksec 4y ago
  That is nice :)
ngcc_hk 4y ago
Taiwan one day has to be strong enough just continue to label Taiwan. Tbh if labelled as china does it subject to china embargo, tax, …
cheaprentalyeti 4y ago
Obviously the tariffs on the goods Apple imports from China and from "China" aren't high enough.
TrapLord_Rhodo 4y ago
People seem to be overinflating the hell out of this. > Apple has asked suppliers to ensure that shipments from Taiwan to China strictly comply with Chinese customs regulations Duh! it's to China! You're just going to piss off your contract manufacturers who have government officials overlooking their supply.
- amelius 4y ago
  But they have to lie in order to comply. It's not just about following stupid rules.
  - eevilspock 4y ago
    Lie? If it's a lie, then it's a lie promoted by the Taiwan government itself, on its official government website and even in its constitution. Taiwan, like mainland China, even still claims Tibet as its territory. They do mainland China one better, they claim Mongolia as well. See supporting references in https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32358560 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32358560
    - amelius 4y ago
      Yes, it's a lie as CCP has had no meaningful governmental role in Taiwan so far.
      - zozbot234 4y ago
        So what? That doesn't change the fact that, practically, Taiwan is Chinese. The language and writing system, if nothing else, kinda give it away. Taipei's "One China" position merely acknowledges this fact, without committing to any stance that the CCP is the legitimate government of any country.
        CogitoCogito 4y ago
        > That doesn't change the fact that, practically, Taiwan is Chinese. The language and writing system, if nothing else, kinda give it away. So the US is English?
jmyeet 4y ago
This is unsurprising. The reality is that the US, China and even much of Taiwan actually or effectively supports the One CHina policy. It would be suicide for China to invade Taiwan. The economic damage this would do to China is immense. China may well collapse. Aside from that, it's not that easy either. China may well have a much larger military but a sea crossing is no easy feat. Look at Britain. It hasn't been successfully invaded by sea in almost 1000 years (1066 being th elast time). On a clear day you can see the white cliffs of Dover from Calais (~17 miles across the English Channel) yet the might of Nazi Germany could never cross it. Even though the US has legislation to protect Taiwan, if push came to shove, the US simply wouldn't trigger a direct war between nuclear powers in the sam eway that the US isn't getting directly involved in Ukraine. And much of Taiwan is happy with the situation as is. Pushing independence is going to seriously rock the boat. So everyone is happy with the situation of China having an official policy that Taiwan is part of China without anything actually changing including China. I'm personally not a fan of Western companies being influenced by the CCP dangling the carrot of access to the Chinese market when it's a mirage. China will never allow a Western company to dominate the Chinese market. Yet we have Hollywood, for example, kowtowing to China. China really took an L (IMHO) over the Pelosi visit. She's not the first House Speaker to visit (Newt Ginrich being the last ~25 years ago). By taking a public position, China really gave the US no choice but to proceed rather than back down. It's just mishandled all the way. So we'll have symbolic things like "Made in --Taiwan--China" as retaliation.
- Apocryphon 4y ago
  The PRC could blockade Taiwan rather than engaging in the enormous task of outright invasion, but you're right, the resulting economic fallout would be immense blowback to them. China's government throughout all this, regardless of Xi's rhetoric, has been engaging in slow and steady, non-disruptive actions. Saber-rattling with military exercises is one thing (there have been multiple Taiwan Strait crises already in past decades), engaging in open war would be hugely disruptive both to the international order and to the international trade that the PRC has built its rise upon.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
protomyth 4y ago
You cannot offend China if your company is a China-based manufacturing company. Tim Cook didn't make sure Apple was am America-base manufacturing company and spent a lot of Apple's money on China. Thinking that Tim Cook will not march to Xi Jinping's drum is absurd. His criticisms of American manufacturing can all be solved by Apple investing the same money. This should be a bigger story. He should be seen as someone who spent American money to build China's supply chain. [edit: gotta love the Tim Cook apologists]
sequoia 4y ago
Seems like they're just following local import/trade rules? I think the rule is bad but presumably plenty of local trade rules are stupid. One doesn't get to pick and choose which to follow. I guess the implication is that going along with China's stance on Taiwan is "going to far" ethically and Apple should refuse, but I can't quite see this.
- nomel 4y ago
  > Taiwan is "going to far" ethically and Apple should refuse, but I can't quite see this. And we won't see it from any big name company, since nearly everything is manufactured, in part or whole, in China.
  - SoftTalker 4y ago
    I bought some tools at Harbor Freight recently that were stamped "Made in Taiwan"
    - nomel 4y ago
      China is Taiwans largest trade partner. For example, 33% of its steel is from China (Taiwan being in the top 7 steel importer, in the world). With Harbor Freight being the destination, it's not unlikely that 90% of the materials in those tools are from China, including a good majority of the standard cogs, switches, and doo-das within.
    - gumby 4y ago
      They presumably were shipped from Taiwan To the US where these rules do not apply. This rule only applies to goods manufactured in Taiwan and shipped to China.
  - 1-6 4y ago
    Moreover it’s about sales in China. If Apple refuses to follow China’s rules, they’ll suffer consequences in sales.
sys_64738 4y ago
This all is highlighting the dangers to public companies about political positions potentially destabilizing the business. Part of the responsibility of C level execs is to shield the shareholders from such uncertainty. AAPL should not be dependent on any single region for product and the political climate & COVID restrictions are prime examples why businesses now need to dramatically shift their supply chain dependencies to dilute the risk.
sxpnsxpn 4y ago

408 points by lucasjans 4y ago

Trade is really a matter for the government, and the US (sadly) adheres to the One China Policy. This just reflects the official policy, and having the companies pick this fight instead of the country is hypocritical.

chmod600 4y ago
There's some nuance here. We have free speech in the US. Freedom means choice, so there's still an obligation to act morally. China is more than willing to manipulate cultural messages with money, so we need some kind of cultural counter to that. For instance, see how China manipulated the NBA and Activision Blizzard during the Hong Kong protests.
- kshacker 4y ago
  As part of free speech, can a company from somewhere in south send out parts in boxes with confederate flag on the box? We make decisions to curtail free speech everyday so how's this different?
  - spookthesunset 4y ago
    I’m sure they could and I bet some do. How that maps into sales is a different story.
  - vladvasiliu 4y ago
    I'm not American, so I may be missing some details, but is that actually not allowed? Or is it rather the case that some people may not like that, so companies try to avoid upsetting some customers?
    - garettmd 4y ago
      Yes, that is totally allowed. It is trivial to find products with the confederate flag printed on them.
    - kshacker 4y ago
      As others said, it may be allowed, and I did not know either ways but it was a rhetorical point. Now even if it is allowed, suppose this was a Federal government procurement. Will Feds buy something with such flags? Nope. Once that happens, it can be easily demagogued.
      - reaperducer 4y ago
        suppose this was a Federal government procurement. Will Feds buy something with such flags? Nope. Actually, probably. If the item meets the specs and the price, that's what matters. Just as there is no shortage of federal buildings, and even military installations named after Confederate things. This HN discussion illustrates how bringing up Confederate themes, you can really tell when someone isn't an American.
        mwint 4y ago
        I’m an American, but not involved in any kind of federal purchasing. I would have assumed that a federal purchaser would make up a reason not to buy my otherwise-perfect product if it had some unpopular statement on it, like a Confederate flag. Do you know of any counter examples where a company was able to make a successful bid with a product that had good fit, but an inconvenient non-functional addon like that?
    - bee_rider 4y ago
      Yes, we can put whatever odious symbols on our products. The Confederate flag is a bit weird because there's enough of the population that apparently doesn't see it that way, so some stores will even display products that have it. (Personally I find it to be an awful symbol and wouldn't stick around if I saw it displayed). An example that is more like what you've described is something like a Nazi swastika -- technically you can sell something with a swastika on it (I'm 99.9% sure) but almost no stores would be willing to put it on the shelves, certainly no major chains or whatever.
  - horsawlarway 4y ago
    > As part of free speech, can a company from somewhere in south send out parts in boxes with confederate flag on the box? Yes. Yes they can.
- Aunche 4y ago
  > China is more than willing to manipulate cultural messages with money, so we need some kind of cultural counter to that. No we don't. China may act peeved that foreign companies are virtue signalling, but they'd secretly relish at the opportunity of finding an excuse to boycott or ban these foreign products, so that their wealth stays circulating in their domestic economy. Look at what happened to Nike and H&M after they voiced concerns about Xinjiang. The CPC organized consumer boycotts of these companies, but happily allowed factories to continue to sell their goods to sell to them. China itself recognizes that it only makes sense to virtue signal when it is economical to do so. The NBA and Blizzard made the correct decision to kowtow to China, economically as well as morally. Getting them kicked out of China does not help Hong Kong, but would threaten to free world as the balance of trade would make us even more beholden to China. In a complicated, globalized world, marginal thinking is the only option.
  - pphysch 4y ago
    > Look at what happened to Nike and H&M after they voiced concerns about Xinjiang. A global company that wastes resources engaging in hysterically overblown State Department propaganda is a company that compromises the credibility of its leadership to make intelligent strategic decisions. We're out of the unipolar era, and companies that are stuck it in it will get outpaced.
    - cromwellian 4y ago
      I think Google proved you can live and thrive without the China domestic market.
      - pphysch 4y ago
        Google doesn't have any full-spectrum peer competitors, much less any that are operating in both PRC and USA.
        cromwellian 4y ago
        Apple didn't either (for premium smartphones) until, arguably, basing their manufacturing there helped standup a large infrastructure that could easily be turned around to make Huawei, Xiaomi, and other devices. If Apple had somehow managed to make iPhones in Vietnam instead of Shenzhen, would they really be facing the premium tier competition from Huawei they face in the EU?
- trasz 4y ago
  >China is more than willing to manipulate cultural messages with money Compared to a country where companies literally buy congressman, and freely manipulate public opinion for the highest bidder?
  - cromwellian 4y ago
    But competing messages are allowed so while the rich manipulate public opinion, they are not unitary and other voices are still heard, wealthy battling wealthy and large social movements too. These false equivalence’s are really tiring. China’s control of public speech and media is on a wholly different plane. It’s not even remotely comparable to manipulation in the West.
    - trasz 4y ago
      So how’s China different here? Or do you really believe there are no conflicting opinions there? I mean, some people believe there are no public elections in China, so…
      - cromwellian 4y ago
        Are we really doing this? Are you really serious? Besides the fact that most of the country is firewalled off from foreign media, and besides the fact that only one political party is allowed, and besides the fact that political prisoners are routinely jailed for nothing more than denying a government narrative, holding mock polls, publishing or assembling (and I don't mean held for a day or two like in the West, but jailed for years) Can a US citizen go on media, or organize a public protest, in which they call Joe Biden or Donald Trump, bad people, with bad policies? Yes, US citizens can publicly call for the highest level politicians in the land to lose their jobs, and with no real repercussions. People on social media can scream "Let's Go Brandon" or meme like crazy about Biden. But Weibo, Wechat, Bilibili, Douyin, frequently censor even the most milquetoast sarcastic remarks about the CCP or Xi, including the infamous Baozi and Panda blocks. Can a famous Chinese public individual/celebrity/intellectual, in China, tell a huge crowd and media, that I think the CCP are horrible and that Xi Jinping needs to be booted from power? Stop trying to draw false equivalencies. > I mean, some people believe there are no public elections in China, so… Sure, where the CCP select and approve the candidates, control the election progress, and there is no free media coverage or transparency free of state control. Practically no real international election monitors. And no direct nationwide elections. Rather, a many levels of indirection process, effectively controlled by a President for life. Let's see what happens at Beidaihe and the 20th national congress in November. Think anything will change? I don't. There's practical no competing, transparent system in these so called 'democratic elections' making them in effort, a Potemkin village with the veneer of popular will, but in fact, nothing of the sort. There are about 50 individuals in the US congress worth more than $10 million, and not a single one who is a billionaire. Trump was the only billionaire to have office. Meanwhile, there are 100+ CCP members in the Congress who are billionaires. Does this look like a system chosen by public debate, awareness, and discussion? For all of the flaws in the Western systems, and there are a vast number, it is really tiring seeing tankies try to say "everything's the same" with zero nuance, as if none of it matters.
sneak 4y ago
I disagree. The largest company in the country is not a passive participant in the government's policies.
- spookthesunset 4y ago
  True. But as a tech company it is much better they fight tech battles like privacy policy, acceptable law enforcement behavior, acceptable tracker use, etc. Let some other company fight the battle over what to put on the label.
  - VBprogrammer 4y ago
    They aren't just a tech company though are they? They are one of the largest companies in the world with an annual turnover comparable with small countries like Denmark or Norway.
    - spookthesunset 4y ago
      That is true but they aren’t a country. They don’t set international policy. They have little to gain and a lot to lose picking this battle. For one thing they have close business relationships with people in both china and Taiwan. They have employees in both countries. Vendors. Human relationships. Those might get kinda awkward if they picked this battle. And what do they gain picking this battle? A few internet points? It’s just not worth it.
trasz 4y ago
>US (sadly) adheres to the One China Policy How terrible of them to adhere to the policy Taiwanese themselves prefer! EDIT: To clarify, from what I remember the public opinion on Taiwan independence has been steadily shifting and now it’s the majority’s preference compared to becoming another province of China. At the same time the vast majority of Taiwanese prefer the option “let’s keep things as they are now”, if that option is available in the poll. Taiwan does have some special ties with continental China, particularly in economy and travel; it’s more like EU than two entirely unrelated countries.
- outworlder 4y ago
  Citation needed. Either that or... are you talking about Taiwan and West Taiwan?
- przemub 4y ago
  Do they? Pan-Greens have a majority now. Mind that Taiwanese politics is not something I know a lot about, so I'm happy to be corrected.
- tuxoko 4y ago
  First, US's One China policy is US's policy. It makes no sense for Taiwanese to adheres to a US's policy. Second, US's One China policy is only a word play. It acknowledges China's position regarding Taiwan but doesn't actually agree or disagree to it. That's why it still provide defense for Taiwan. Third, your comment about public opinion is a complete nonsense. Taiwan is a democratic nation. If the majority prefers being a province of China, it would have already voted to do so. And the only reason people choose to "keep things as they are now" is to avoid provoking a war with China.
  - trasz 4y ago
    First, it’s China’s policy that US claims to adhere to. Second - yeah, your point being? Third - yes, it is a democratic nation, and the prevalent majority of that democratic nation wants to keep things as they are, as evidenced by polls[1]. This nation doesn’t want war. Compare this with the standard modus operandi of US. Sometimes they are the good guys, sometime they kill a million people in Middle East, but it’s always about a war somewhere far away from US. 1. Notice how different this is from Ukraine. Ever wondered why there are so many… persons equating China and Russia?
birdyrooster 4y ago
I don't see how it is sad. The One China Policy is simultaneously amicable with the PRC and ROC constitutions. They both claim One China and the United States acknowledges that there is One China, but the United States makes no claims no preference for either government in resolving the Taiwanese straight conflict as it is a civil war.
- YPPH 4y ago
  What you're missing is that "One China" is now a mere diplomatic fiction. The only reason the US and Taiwan insist on it is to avoid unnecessary escalation with China. But, as a matter of fact, Taiwan is a completely independent, sovereign and autonomous state, over which China has absolutely no legal or practical control.
  - sofixa 4y ago
    That's true, but as far as the world is concerned, Taiwan is de jure part of the One and only China, which is the PRC as of now. And of course the PRC has zero desire to recognise the fact that Taiwan is an independent country. So the status quo here, same as the one between the Koreas, is basically the only way things can remain peaceful until some drastic change happens (e.g. the PRC falling).
  - birdyrooster 4y ago
    And that is fiction which has held the peace for 70 years
- peoplefromibiza 4y ago
  US, sadly, have always supported the right wingers against "the commies", no matter the consequences. When they started to support Taiwan in 1945, Chiang Kai-shek was a nationalist who imposed the martial law on Taiwan for 40 years (until the end of the 1980s!), waiting to strike back and regain "full control of China" (that's how One China principle was born, RPC has nothing to do with it! it was even in the ROC Constitution until 1992!) Nixon changed everything when he visited mainland China and talked to Mao in 1972, that lead to the US-China trade agreement of 1979. Until 1972 US had an agreement with Chiang Kai-shek, Taiwan "temporary" government was the only recognized China, they were bound to protect it in case of attack, they supported his claims of reunification under his ruling and the UN seat for China was that of Taiwan, even though 99% of the people of China lived on mainland. USA has been very ambiguous since then, on one side they acknowledges that all Chinese on either side of the Taiwan Strait maintain there is but one China and that Taiwan is a part of China and does not challenge that position, on the other they are formally Taiwan allied, but there's no more an US embassy in Taipei and no Taiwanese embassy in Washington. They even moved their "One China" capital from Taipei to Beijing. Reminder: indigenous people of Taiwan are only 2% of the original population, the rest is 97% Han Chinese, so one China is quite an accurate description. They only differ about the alliances they made, but the mythological example of freedom for Asian countries that Taiwan should be, is just a myth https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2016/12/nanjing/622671/ https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2016/12/na... (2016, long before the actual crisis) Also, 2021 referendum on pork ban from USA shows that to keep having the support of USA, the ruling political party in Taiwan has to to satisfy their demands, even when it (potentially) poses a risk for the entire Taiwanese population. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-12-16/pork-referendum-poses-test-for-strengthening-u-s-taiwan-ties https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-12-16/pork-refe... USA are not there as mere observers, but as strongly interested party, with deep economical interests. And to exploit cheap labor, that made the fortune of Apple with their iPhone. The truth is that until not long ago, Taiwan had access to better weapons thanks to the USA that compensated for the smaller army. Their technological superiority combined with the threat of US navy showing up at the border kept China at bay and forced them to think twice before trying to retake Taiwan. Now that's not true anymore.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

aaaaaaaaaaab 4y ago

They should make their chips at CSMC instead of TSMC then.

smoldesu 4y ago
"Introducing the Apple M3, the first PC chip made on China's 28nm low-yield node!"

TheChaplain 4y ago

Doesn't surprise me. Money talks louder than sovereignty of some state. :(

lucasjans 4y ago

This company pretends it has the moral high ground, but like most of corporate America, they always have an eye on Chinese profits. America's future is at stake and we won't wake up until it's too late.

elil17 4y ago
Does it matter what Apple does? I would think that reading "Made in Chinese Tiapei" only serves as a reminder of China's policy.
- mountainb 4y ago
  Apple will knuckle under in about 3 seconds when the war starts and do whatever the US government asks them to do.
  - shoulderfake 4y ago
  - sneak 4y ago
    100% of Apple's important chips depend on Taiwan continuing to be Taiwan (and TSMC continuing to be TSMC). ~100% of Apple's manufacturing depends on China continuing to permit hundreds of thousands of Chinese nationals in Chinese factories (Foxconn's plants in Zhengzhou and elsewhere) building Apple products. I'm not sure what you mean by "knuckle under" in this context, but Apple is, today, wholly dependent upon Taiwanese and Chinese manufacturing (for chips, and assembly, respectively). If there is a war between China and Taiwan, or China and the US, Apple stands to lose the most of any single organization, I think.
    - mountainb 4y ago
      Yes, they are dependent on China and Taiwan, but they will knuckle under to the point to which the company is seriously disrupted if not destroyed once the war starts. I think it behooves everyone at Apple to prepare for the war and to figure out likely alternatives, and to also assume that the usual grey market way of getting around it will be anticipated by the federal government, and under war conditions the federal government may have a harsher point of view on it than they usually would with country of origin manipulation. Even if the US wins a war over Taiwan, it'd probably take a long time to resolve, and trade would be disrupted for long enough that nothing is getting off the island until peace is re-established. Right now, if nothing changes with the US-China trajectory, war is coming. If the trajectory changes, that might change.

earthboundkid 4y ago

Why is this interesting? Taiwan has to compete in the Olympics as Chinese Taipei or whatever. Yeah, any place that China can influence, it makes Taiwan call itself China.

Pulcinella 4y ago
Taiwan calls itself China. The official name is literally the Republic of China. Both China and Taiwan agree that there is just one China, but disagree about what formal unification would or should look like. Edit: The USA also agrees that there is one China, at least officially, though it’s not like the US doesn’t like to change its mind frequently. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shanghai_Communiqué https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shanghai_Communiqué
- happytoexplain 4y ago
  The USA officially agrees - which is a critical qualifier when talking about political entities. The USA, colloquially, is miles from agreeing.
- warning26 4y ago
  Everyone knows Taiwan is its own country, the US et all merely engage in the "one china" pretense to keep the PRC happy.
  - sneak 4y ago
    Yes, but the own country on the island of Taiwan is called the "Republic of China".
    - earthboundkid 4y ago
      Because it would be a provocation to war to change the name to Taiwan. Politicians in Taiwan have tried to change the name and always chickened out because it’s a dumb reason to trigger an invasion.
- 4y ago

Overtonwindow 4y ago

This is ridiculous. Taiwan is a free and independent country. Shame on Apple.

bell-cot 4y ago
Perhaps. OTOH, my experience (modest n) is that a fairly large percentage of people are happy to say "Shame on Apple" for such things. Vs. a near-zero percentage are actually willing to avoid buying products made in (mainland) China, or with major components made there. Talk was cheap long before "Performative Activism" had its own Wikipedia page.
- BitwiseFool 4y ago
  >" Vs. a near-zero percentage are actually willing to avoid buying products made in (mainland) China, or with major components made there." Personally, I make a sincere effort to buy products that aren't made in China. I've been doing this for years but unfortunately avoiding things made in China is surprisingly difficult. When I end up buying products made in China, it isn't because of a lack of conviction, it is because there was no alternative I could find.
- 2OEH8eoCRo0 4y ago
  But how can I live without their 1% better touch pad and build quality?
- hunterb123 4y ago
  So OP can't shame Apple for this moral behavior because others buy Apple's product? Would you apply that same standard and does it hold up to other scenarios? If people were buying textile products from the slave trade, would you say "perhaps" when other (or the same) people shamed those industries for supporting slave labor? If people were buying nuts and fruit from exploited migrant workers, would you still be able to shame the industries for better conditions or to hire minimal wage workers? If people were buying cobalt or lithium mined from child slaves would you be able to shame those industries into sourcing minerals in a more humane way even though people buy EVs? Or because people bought those products those companies/industries have immunity from criticism? You cannot avoid products made in China because of the current status quo for the same reasons you couldn't avoid textiles made with slave cotton. That doesn't mean you can't advocate change to the status quo.

nhanhi 4y ago

https://archive.ph/mZaR9 https://archive.ph/mZaR9

BiteCode_dev 4y ago

I have a friend working for a company whose biggest clients are in the Emirates. One of said client is the government, and it is asking them to buy some very specific equipment, knowing fully well this equipment is only sold in Israel. However, the Emirates cannot trade with Israel, and refuse to pay for any equipment labelled as coming from this country. Calling one of the officials, they asked for a solution. They told them to ship everything first to the UK. There, they should unpack every single object, and package them again with different country labels. Once the box has passed custom, nobody will raise the topic about the equipment origin. And so this is what they do.

peoplefromibiza 4y ago
> However, the Emirates cannot trade with Israel, that's a ruse used only internally to foment hatred against "the Jews" https://foreignpolicy.com/2016/08/25/the-uae-spends-big-on-israeli-spyware-to-listen-in-on-a-dissident/ https://foreignpolicy.com/2016/08/25/the-uae-spends-big-on-i...
- lostlogin 4y ago
  It is possible to disagree with a state and it’s policies while being fine with its people. I’d put quite a few countries in this category. I’m pretty confident that’s not what the UAE are doing, and don’t support them.
josephcsible 4y ago
> the Emirates cannot trade with Israel Is "cannot" really accurate? Isn't it more like they voluntarily chose not to do so?
- ericbarrett 4y ago
  I read that as shorthand for "Emirates-based entities cannot..."
- kps 4y ago
  Used to. Israel and UAE normalized relations in 2020 and signed a free trade deal this spring.

BudaDude 4y ago

This should honestly be picked up by a larger news organization. If the US is serious about protecting Taiwan and bringing more chips to the US, Apple should be shamed for choosing Chinese profits. Imagine if Apple told Ukraine employees to label Russia on their badges.

INTPenis 4y ago
It amazes me how quickly people online are willing to start ww3. It seems like it's not the world leaders we have to worry about, it's the fucking commenters. Yes it should be picked up but the US can't just go in swinging with China. Nobody wins.
- MichaelBurge 4y ago
  Apple's market cap is $2.7 trillion. How hard could it be for them to get a few nuclear-powered aircraft carriers and tell China, "We refuse to comply with your labeling requirements. Just try to stop us"?
  - wongarsu 4y ago
    Apple has about $40 billion cash on hand. A nuclear-powered aircraft carrier is about $10 billion, plus another 6 billion for the aircraft (taking a Nimitz class with 90 Super Hornets). Add in ammunition, crew, training, support craft, operational expenses. Buying more than one would seriously strain Apple's budget. And all of that to expose it to China's anti-ship missiles and dare them to shoot. Seems like a terrible way to spend that money.
    - sour-taste 4y ago
      Not to mention that I'm pretty sure the USA doesn't want it's private companies running their own Navies and going toe to toe with foreign forces
- BudaDude 4y ago
  To be fair, China was ready to start WWIII a few days ago.

leephillips 4y ago

What’s wrong with the original title? The re-written title here makes no grammatical sense and misrepresents the story.

lucasjans 4y ago
Agreed. This new title strikes me as washing away the true meaning of what's happening. There's no mention of Taiwan, which is is specifically related to. Who can rewrite titles on hackernews? Can we get an explanation who made the change and why?

bamboozled 4y ago

I'm done with Apple.

amelius 4y ago

Why not put "US" on the shipments instead, as it's closer to the truth?

axus 4y ago
If Trump had exchanged Taiwan for Puerto Rico, we could, but missed opportunity.
- yieldcrv 4y ago
  yeahhh I'm going to need Puerto Rico's parallel tax structure for as long as possible so if we could not alter their territorial status and also keep Congress split on everything that would be greeaaaaat just keep posting "red waaaave" on your instagram account and "blue waaaave" on your twitter account so that everyone stays in their respective echo chamber, I think at least till 2025 would be good for me, I'll probably have cleared all my US earnings from taxes and left (w/ a different excuse) by then
  - trebbble 4y ago
    Clicks the "learn more" button
    - yieldcrv 4y ago
      So US citizens have to pretty much just ignore the entire offshore industry for legal tax avoidance, but fortunately the US offers US citizens many ways to not have a tax bill. Some US territories have a parallel tax system that isn't underneath the Federal Government, whereas states are under the federal government, so a resident of a state has to pay state taxes as well as federal taxes. Although there are "categories" of types of territories, these categories are pretty much made up on the spot and each territory is its own separate case, as the US only has 5 inhabited territories all with unique tax and citizenship conditions. Long story short, Puerto Rico has a tax system that is treated like being a foreign country, but checks the box for total Federal US tax compliance. Under Puerto Rico's "Act 60", which mainland transplants to Puerto Rico can apply for, many transactions are taxed at zero percent, most importantly capital gains (for trades initiated while on the island and sold on the island, pro-rata based on time for longer held positions), while "PR sourced income" is taxed at 5%, or an up-to-4% corporate tax rate (so the same activity done through a corporation is taxed lower, and the dividends are tax free, and the sales of shares are tax free) So if you want to clear all your money in the eyes of the Federal government, then living a year in PR to execute or finish a specific plan is good. Congress has a little control over PR, but its more beneficial and easier to perpetuate division in Congress, at least at this class level, than pretend to have some other trendy cause that your friends want you to espouse. and finally I made a reference to renouncing citizenship. If you leave "for tax purposes" then there exit taxes. So the goal is to keep more of your money at your own discretion, and then leave for any reason that isn't "tax purposes".

galleywest200 4y ago

It looks to me that this is only shipments from Taiwan to China > Apple has asked suppliers to ensure that shipments from Taiwan to China strictly comply with Chinese customs regulations after a recent visit by senior U.S. lawmaker Nancy Pelosi to Taipei stoked fears of rising trade barriers. Am I missing something? I do not see a requirement that all package from Taiwan say they are from China.

SpicyLemonZest 4y ago
You're missing the biggest practical source of fake news: people are absolutely determined to comment on articles after reading only the headline, and headlines optimize for attention-grabbing rather than informativeness. You're completely right about what actually happened here, but the majority of people who see this while it's on the front page are going to walk away confident that Apple did some much more problematic thing.
- smoldesu 4y ago
  I think most of us are here to enjoy the irony of a "progressive" company laying down idly while China treats them like a lapdog.

president 4y ago

Fiduciary responsibility over moral responsibility is what killed America

dhx 4y ago

I wonder what Apple would now list if updating their FY20 supplier list[1] which simply states "Taiwan" for manufacturing locations for many of their suppliers. Some of the suppliers in the list[1] operate manufacturing facilities in both mainland China and Taiwan, and their websites refer to a combination of "China", "Taiwan" and "R.O.C.". I do wonder how difficult it would be for these companies to deal with both governments at the same time! For example, the visa policies of each government towards each other appear to be very restrictive[2][3]. [1] https://www.apple.com/supplier-responsibility/pdf/Apple-Supplier-List.pdf https://www.apple.com/supplier-responsibility/pdf/Apple-Supp... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visa_policy_of_Taiwan#Chinese_travelers_domiciled_in_Mainland_China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visa_policy_of_Taiwan#Chinese_... [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visa_policy_of_mainland_China#Taiwan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visa_policy_of_mainland_China#...

FirstLvR 4y ago

I HATE the fact technology has to be influenced so much by politics. The only reason we are not travel the stars by now is our own fault.

BudaDude 4y ago
Agreed. It's sad that we as species just can't get it right when it comes to getting along with each-other.
nicce 4y ago
U.S. made nuclear submarines are really interesting from that point of view. We had technology in 1960s to make reactors which need to be refilled once per 15-20 years without significant incidents. But because of the fear of misuse and technological theft, we have energy crisis.
msabalau 4y ago
We don't have interstellar travel because Apple's suppliers have to meet labeling requirements? But yes, there are nice things that the money that goes to defense budgets could be spent on, if there weren't authoritarian leaders making irredentist threats against democracies.
- mensetmanusman 4y ago
  If the trillions that was spent on defence was spent on a space station, there is an argument to be made.

alexnewman 4y ago

But i thought 1 china :). Seriously was this an issue, of people mismarking components?

NhanH 4y ago

Officially, Taiwan agree to the “One China” stance. They even agree in the 1992 consensus that RoC and PRC does not agree who is the legitimate government of both mainland China and Taiwan islands, but the One China stance itself is not something in dispute. The constitution of Taiwan claims sovereignty over mainland China, although they added an amendment to differentiate “free area” citizens (Taiwanese) and citizens under control of the “rebellions” (I don’t know if they removed the specific wording yet). You could argue that Taiwan have to agree to One China by force, as the PRC has made it very clear that the PLA (People’s liberation Army) is invading if Taiwan abandon the stance. With that in mind, Taiwan and China situation is really similar to a civil war, Taiwan is just a secessionist. And until the situation is resolved, there is nothing wrong with label it “Taiwan, China”

eating555 4y ago
Current government doesn't agree on the 1992 consensus. The agreement on "One China" doesn't exist. Discalaimer: I live here.
mmis1000 4y ago
> is invading if Taiwan abandon the stance. That is never the truth. They threat for armed attack like since forever 'everyday'. To the point people here just outright ignore their claim and do their daily work. If somebody even be serious about that. Then they would need live in the air-raid shelter everyday. But who would do that? > similar to a civil war Hell no, in my 30 years of live, I have nothing to do with PRC at all except saw them on the TV that they will never give up attacking Taiwan. Discalaimer: I live here.
- joenot443 4y ago
  Thanks for chiming in! Always great to hear perspectives from people actually living in the places being discussed. If you had to guess, where do you expect TW/CH relations to be in 50 years? Do you still expect there to be disagreement between the two governments on respective borders and sovereignty or will they someday reach a fully amicable agreement?

TheMagicHorsey 4y ago

It will be painful. It will cause huge economic disruption. There will be a fall in living standards and severe inflation. But, it's time for US companies to pull out of China. The moral imperative to help China rise out of poverty through trade is done. They are no longer a poor country. Now we are compromising our values for something stupid ... for cheaper iPhones. Long term our Grandchildren will all be under the boots of the CPC if we don't take the pain now. I'm not suggesting we war with China. I'm suggesting we remove their leverage from our economies. As long as EU and America need Chinese goods to subsidize their massively irresponsible fiscal policies, Chinese dictators will have leverage over Western people. You have to sacrifice material well-being for freedom at the right time, or you will have neither in a generation.

sam36 4y ago
I've thought this for the last 10+ years or so. I even tried to not buy anything that was "made in china" for many years. I'm so amazed that people were fine with the recent higher gas prices because it would be helping the war in Ukraine. But yet no one wants to end trade with china because it would rise the costs of goods. Just 40 years ago there was literally nothing coming from china. They flood our markets with cheap crap that is made by burning coal, nobody cares that the end product breaks in mere days or weeks because you can just "buy another one". They've ruined the entire aftermarket parts industry for cars as almost every replacement part you buy at autozone is a chinese knockoff that will leave you stranded on the side of the road (my family runs an auto shop, the parts reliability issues are insane while autozone stock goes to the moon). And then the main issue is all this cheapness is possible because workers are paid pennies a day and take meth so they can work 15 hour days doing tedious hand assembly because the person labor is cheaper than using a machine to automate. And now our media is flooded with news bites about how oppressive and racist america is while china gets away with literal slavery and everyone there believes all non-chinese are inferior. Screw these people and their government.
bamboozled 4y ago
We need to fix the systems that allowed and made this decision in the first place or another stupid one will follow. In some ways, and I know this will be unpopular, but is it free market capitalism that enabled the CCP to rise to such power? ie "You're freedom to choose cheap shit"? I'm certainly not arguing for communism ourselves, but I mean, China didn't force us to move manufacturing there, won't it just happen again ?

yuubi 4y ago

i recently got an electronic product that said 中國 instead of 中国 on the label (traditional vs simplified characters). i wonder if this was meant as a subtle indication that it was from traditional-character land.

ksec 4y ago
That is nice :)

ngcc_hk 4y ago

Taiwan one day has to be strong enough just continue to label Taiwan. Tbh if labelled as china does it subject to china embargo, tax, …

cheaprentalyeti 4y ago

Obviously the tariffs on the goods Apple imports from China and from "China" aren't high enough.

TrapLord_Rhodo 4y ago

People seem to be overinflating the hell out of this. > Apple has asked suppliers to ensure that shipments from Taiwan to China strictly comply with Chinese customs regulations Duh! it's to China! You're just going to piss off your contract manufacturers who have government officials overlooking their supply.

amelius 4y ago
But they have to lie in order to comply. It's not just about following stupid rules.
- eevilspock 4y ago
  Lie? If it's a lie, then it's a lie promoted by the Taiwan government itself, on its official government website and even in its constitution. Taiwan, like mainland China, even still claims Tibet as its territory. They do mainland China one better, they claim Mongolia as well. See supporting references in https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32358560 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32358560
  - amelius 4y ago
    Yes, it's a lie as CCP has had no meaningful governmental role in Taiwan so far.
    - zozbot234 4y ago
      So what? That doesn't change the fact that, practically, Taiwan is Chinese. The language and writing system, if nothing else, kinda give it away. Taipei's "One China" position merely acknowledges this fact, without committing to any stance that the CCP is the legitimate government of any country.
      - CogitoCogito 4y ago
        > That doesn't change the fact that, practically, Taiwan is Chinese. The language and writing system, if nothing else, kinda give it away. So the US is English?

jmyeet 4y ago

This is unsurprising. The reality is that the US, China and even much of Taiwan actually or effectively supports the One CHina policy. It would be suicide for China to invade Taiwan. The economic damage this would do to China is immense. China may well collapse. Aside from that, it's not that easy either. China may well have a much larger military but a sea crossing is no easy feat. Look at Britain. It hasn't been successfully invaded by sea in almost 1000 years (1066 being th elast time). On a clear day you can see the white cliffs of Dover from Calais (~17 miles across the English Channel) yet the might of Nazi Germany could never cross it. Even though the US has legislation to protect Taiwan, if push came to shove, the US simply wouldn't trigger a direct war between nuclear powers in the sam eway that the US isn't getting directly involved in Ukraine. And much of Taiwan is happy with the situation as is. Pushing independence is going to seriously rock the boat. So everyone is happy with the situation of China having an official policy that Taiwan is part of China without anything actually changing including China. I'm personally not a fan of Western companies being influenced by the CCP dangling the carrot of access to the Chinese market when it's a mirage. China will never allow a Western company to dominate the Chinese market. Yet we have Hollywood, for example, kowtowing to China. China really took an L (IMHO) over the Pelosi visit. She's not the first House Speaker to visit (Newt Ginrich being the last ~25 years ago). By taking a public position, China really gave the US no choice but to proceed rather than back down. It's just mishandled all the way. So we'll have symbolic things like "Made in --Taiwan--China" as retaliation.

Apocryphon 4y ago
The PRC could blockade Taiwan rather than engaging in the enormous task of outright invasion, but you're right, the resulting economic fallout would be immense blowback to them. China's government throughout all this, regardless of Xi's rhetoric, has been engaging in slow and steady, non-disruptive actions. Saber-rattling with military exercises is one thing (there have been multiple Taiwan Strait crises already in past decades), engaging in open war would be hugely disruptive both to the international order and to the international trade that the PRC has built its rise upon.

deleted 4y ago

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protomyth 4y ago

You cannot offend China if your company is a China-based manufacturing company. Tim Cook didn't make sure Apple was am America-base manufacturing company and spent a lot of Apple's money on China. Thinking that Tim Cook will not march to Xi Jinping's drum is absurd. His criticisms of American manufacturing can all be solved by Apple investing the same money. This should be a bigger story. He should be seen as someone who spent American money to build China's supply chain. [edit: gotta love the Tim Cook apologists]

sequoia 4y ago

Seems like they're just following local import/trade rules? I think the rule is bad but presumably plenty of local trade rules are stupid. One doesn't get to pick and choose which to follow. I guess the implication is that going along with China's stance on Taiwan is "going to far" ethically and Apple should refuse, but I can't quite see this.

nomel 4y ago
> Taiwan is "going to far" ethically and Apple should refuse, but I can't quite see this. And we won't see it from any big name company, since nearly everything is manufactured, in part or whole, in China.
- SoftTalker 4y ago
  I bought some tools at Harbor Freight recently that were stamped "Made in Taiwan"
  - nomel 4y ago
    China is Taiwans largest trade partner. For example, 33% of its steel is from China (Taiwan being in the top 7 steel importer, in the world). With Harbor Freight being the destination, it's not unlikely that 90% of the materials in those tools are from China, including a good majority of the standard cogs, switches, and doo-das within.
  - gumby 4y ago
    They presumably were shipped from Taiwan To the US where these rules do not apply. This rule only applies to goods manufactured in Taiwan and shipped to China.
- 1-6 4y ago
  Moreover it’s about sales in China. If Apple refuses to follow China’s rules, they’ll suffer consequences in sales.

sys_64738 4y ago

This all is highlighting the dangers to public companies about political positions potentially destabilizing the business. Part of the responsibility of C level execs is to shield the shareholders from such uncertainty. AAPL should not be dependent on any single region for product and the political climate & COVID restrictions are prime examples why businesses now need to dramatically shift their supply chain dependencies to dilute the risk.

sxpnsxpn 4y ago