13 ms·

TurboTax’s fight against free tax filing

804 points by xweb 4y ago

micromacrofoot 4y ago
It gets harder every year to find tax software that isn't owned by intuit... I don't think any of it is free anymore for anything beyond basic returns. The IRS' paper returns get more complicated every year. It seems Intuit is winning this despite all the complaining.
- jonny_eh 4y ago
  "Cash App Taxes" is owned by Cash App which is owned by Square/Block Inc. It used to be owned by Credit Karma, which was bought by Intuit, but they (were forced?) to sell it.
  - micromacrofoot 4y ago
    Ah, thanks for the info. Last I knew Intuit bought Credit Karma (who I did taxes with previously) and I didn't realize they were spun off again.
    - AviationAtom 4y ago
      Yes, the Justice Department mandated that they jettisoned it as part of the sale, as they knew what Intuit would do with it if they got their paws on it.
- briandear 4y ago
  But TurboTax does a great job. It’s a good product. Happy to pay for it. Not sure why all of the hate. The problem is the tax system itself, not the software.
  - formerkrogemp 4y ago
    Intuit has been spending billions to lobby for complicated tax filing process and against the government primarily filling out your forms for you based on data they should already have on hand from mandatory reporting. That's why people hate them so much.
  - micromacrofoot 4y ago
    Intuit lobbies the government to keep the tax system complicated so they can charge people to use their software. The majority of the civilized world spends almost 0 time doing personal taxes. Intuit steals our time and money.
    - dominotw 4y ago
      > keep the tax system complicated what happened to the original forces that created this mess. I am not convinced that if it wasn't for intuit we would have a simple tax system. > The majority of the civilized world spends almost 0 time doing personal taxes. this isn't actually true.
      - micromacrofoot 4y ago
        > this isn't actually true There are at least 50 countries with less complex taxes than the united states
        dominotw 4y ago
        ok? What does that have to do with original 'almost 0 time' claim? Also complexity of american tax code didn't come because of turbotax/intuit. Do you really think we have stuff like credits for home improvements, credits for student loan payments ect are in tax code because of intuit? There are politicians right now trying to cram in more and more tax code because those incentives are incredible popular with American public. All this is not because of intuit.
        micromacrofoot 4y ago
        You got me "almost 0" was hyperbolic, I'll be more specific: In multiple countries personal taxes can be completed with little more than a signature, and most are simpler in general... the US ranks near the bottom in terms of complexity. I didn't say that Intuit caused complex taxes, I said they actively lobby to keep them complicated. Intuit spends millions on lobbying every year (against simplification efforts, as well as efforts for the government to create its own free digital tax filing system) and has recently pulled out of a federal free tax filing program, and are being sued by the FTC for their use of "free" in their marketing and performing bait and switch.
  - _jal 4y ago
    > Not sure why all of the hate. .. I take it you have managed to post this without reading nearly every other comment?
  - et-al 4y ago
    > Not sure why all of the hate. You're being facetious, right? They have dark patterns every step of the way to try to get you to pay more and to share your tax information. Their "free" is oftentimes not free. And on top of all this, there are countless articles about them lobbying to maintain the status quo of complicated taxes.
  - Sohcahtoa82 4y ago
    I'm not normally one to say "Bro, read the room", but... Bro. Read the room. The entire comment section answers the question of "why all of the hate".
- avrionov 4y ago
  TaxCut is probably the biggest alternative. Owned by HRBlock. Not sure if the they are better.
- wtf_is_up 4y ago
  I found TaxHawk to be really good when I did my own taxes. Mainly I sought it out because it took in K-1's where TurboTax would need an upgrade.
  - TMWNN 4y ago
    I'd been satisfied with TaxHawk in the past, but when my tax situation changed this time around I tested it with the same inputs as TurboTax with upsells costing 10 times more. After getting the same results on both, I gladly used TaxHawk again.
FYYFFF 4y ago
Millions of lawyers, accountants and bookkeepers exist only because the US tax code is so ridiculously complicated.
- formerkrogemp 4y ago
  It's job security for accounting folks alright. Just like web advertising keeps all of you programming critters employed.
  - FYYFFF 4y ago
    Not me, but yes. Ads are the reason everything sucks. Adtech and its PPC / CTR have destroyed the world. Everything, in every media, is now clickbait.
    - formerkrogemp 4y ago
      Ads make the world (wide web) go round.
dang 4y ago
Related: Filing taxes could be free & simple. H&R Block & Intuit lobby against it (2017) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30856968 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30856968 - March 2022 (114 comments) FTC sues Intuit for its deceptive TurboTax “free” filing campaign - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30846071 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30846071 - March 2022 (555 comments) Ask HN: How does TurboTax get away with dark patterns? - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30409523 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30409523 - Feb 2022 (122 comments) Filing Taxes Could Be Free and Simple. But H&R Block and Intuit Lobby Against It (2017) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30185484 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30185484 - Feb 2022 (18 comments) Killing TurboTax - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26330584 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26330584 - March 2021 (662 comments) Show HN: ustaxes.org – open-source tax filing webapp - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26138446 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26138446 - Feb 2021 (219 comments) TurboTax Tricked You into Paying to File Your Taxes (2019) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26102695 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26102695 - Feb 2021 (306 comments) TurboTax’s 20-Year Fight to Stop Americans from Filing Taxes for Free (2019) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26060414 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26060414 - Feb 2021 (199 comments) FTC Is Investigating Intuit over TurboTax Practices - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24409093 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24409093 - Sept 2020 (194 comments) IRS Reforms Free File Program, Drops Agreement Not to Compete with TurboTax - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21923220 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21923220 - Dec 2019 (448 comments) IRS Tried to Hide Emails That Show Tax Industry Influence over Free File Program - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21393758 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21393758 - Oct 2019 (188 comments) TurboTax’s 20-Year Fight to Stop Americans from Filing Taxes for Free - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21281411 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21281411 - Oct 2019 (447 comments) TurboTax to charge more lower-income customers - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20461169 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20461169 - July 2019 (81 comments) Congress Scraps Provision to Restrict IRS from Competing with TurboTax - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20119916 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20119916 - June 2019 (18 comments) TurboTax Uses a “Military Discount” to Trick Troops into Paying to File Taxes - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19994118 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19994118 - May 2019 (42 comments) Listen to TurboTax Lie to Get Out of Refunding Overcharged Customers - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19870242 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19870242 - May 2019 (44 comments) TurboTax and H&R Block Saw Free Tax Filing as a Threat - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19810981 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19810981 - May 2019 (143 comments) TurboTax Hides Its Free File Page from Search Engines - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19758126 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19758126 - April 2019 (262 comments) TurboTax Uses Dark Patterns to Trick You into Paying to File Your Taxes - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19718284 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19718284 - April 2019 (274 comments) Congress Is About to Ban the US Government from Offering Free Online Tax Filing - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19613725 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19613725 - April 2019 (696 comments) How the Maker of TurboTax Fought Free, Simple Tax Filing (2013) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19392673 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19392673 - March 2019 (253 comments) H&R Block and Intuit Lobby Against Free and Simple Tax Filing (2017) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18956883 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18956883 - Jan 2019 (190 comments) Would You Let the I.R.S. Prepare Your Taxes? (2015) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17751383 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17751383 - Aug 2018 (424 comments) Why I'm boycotting TurboTax this year - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16844458 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16844458 - April 2018 (23 comments) H&R Block and Intuit Lobbying Against Simpler Tax Filing (2017) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16841449 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16841449 - April 2018 (232 comments) H&R Block and Intuit Are Lobbying Against Making Tax Filling Free and Easy - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13922482 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13922482 - March 2017 (234 comments) How the Maker of TurboTax Fought Free, Simple Tax Filing (2013) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13853150 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13853150 - March 2017 (439 comments) TurboTax Takes Aim at Smaller Rival in Fight for Filers - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11150694 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11150694 - Feb 2016 (87 comments) Would You Let the I.R.S. Prepare Your Taxes? - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9381437 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9381437 - April 2015 (150 comments) Would You Let the I.R.S. Prepare Your Taxes? - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9380232 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9380232 - April 2015 (124 comments) Filing taxes: It shouldn't be so hard - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5488084 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5488084 - April 2013 (56 comments) How the Maker of TurboTax Fought Free, Simple Tax Filing - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5443203 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5443203 - March 2013 (330 comments)
beckingz 4y ago
Going to give a +1 for FreeTaxUSA. Significantly cheaper than H&R Block and a user interface that is just as good. The large tax companies are engaging in regulatory capture and ought to be sidelined in favor of a healthy society.
- linsomniac 4y ago
  This is my first year filing with FreeTaxUSA and I'm quite happy with them. I bought the upgrade version, it was like $6 or $7, and then state was $14 on top of that. Quite happy with them. One downside, because I had some investment sales this year, and they would only let me enter summarized information, I have to print, complete, and mail a form with the itemized data. Thankfully, it isn't too large in my case.
  - crazysim 4y ago
    I really hope FreeTaxUSA improves their investment sales stuff, maybe with import capabilities or something. If you go for the unsummarized information, you don't have to mail anything. Unfortunately, you gave to go through a ton of screens and enter each trade by hand.
    - ghoward 4y ago
      I have a relative that works for FreeTaxUSA. I'll let her know about your request. Edit: my relative says that it's already on the TODO list, but it takes a while with all of the other things they have to do. Edit: sanitized personal information because I'm stupid.
      - everybodyknows 4y ago
        Some brokers support CSV download of trade info. If FreeTaxUSA could then upload direct from the customer's PC, maybe ask for help understanding column names, that would be good enough for some of us. Tangentially, there are all sorts of good reasons for an investor to want a CSV available locally anyway. Analysis of one's misadventures, for a start.
rodric 4y ago
Lobbying is a two-way street: it would be good if for once the reporters that investigated this topic would name the politicians on the other end of it, rather than just (albeit deservedly) condemning Intuit for the thousandth time
morninglight 4y ago
Founding fathers wanted, "No taxation without representation." Maybe they should have been more specific.
- Apocryphon 4y ago
  Shortly after the revolution they put down several tax protester uprisings with armed force, this has always been happening. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shays%27_Rebellion https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shays%27_Rebellion https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whiskey_Rebellion https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whiskey_Rebellion https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fries%27s_Rebellion https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fries%27s_Rebellion
rootusrootus 4y ago
Any article on this topic is incomplete if it doesn't also include a paragraph on Grover Norquist. I'd argue that his influence has been far more effective than Intuit's lobbying.
- patio11 4y ago
  Came here to say this. I will try to avoid committing politics in the HN comments section, but it is a true fact that one side of the aisle has definite policy preferences on taxes and maximally does not want them to happen quietly without people noticing them. They will say this, at length and on the record, when asked about the topic. Their positions are sincere and flow logically from both their political preferences and incentives.
  - lkbm 4y ago
    Milton Friedman once commented that property tax is particularly unpopular because it's the only tax for which people still have to write a check[0]. That said, we could make income tax more visible without requiring tax professionals. (e.g., end withholding and send me a monthly tax bill; show the money go into my bank account and then back out, whether automatically or forcing me to write a check.) [0] https://youtu.be/yS7Jb58hcsc?t=120 https://youtu.be/yS7Jb58hcsc?t=120
    - ghaff 4y ago
      In general, people with significant non-W2 income (e.g. dividends, capital gains, etc.) already have to file estimated quarterly taxes in many cases.
    - JJMcJ 4y ago
      Property tax is the only tax I know of, at least in the US, that's on static wealth rather than economic activity. Your stock goes from 500 shares at $20 to 500 shares at $2000, no tax on that $999,000 gain until you sell. Your house goes from $12,000 to $3,500,000, absent something like Prop 13 in California, your tax bill goes way up even though you have derived no income from the gain in value. This can be a hardship for people whose incomes have not kept pace with the house value.
bigbacaloa 4y ago
In Spain I log onto the tax agency website using my digital certificate. It tells me what I have been paid during the year, what I own, how big my mortgage is, etc. If I agree I click a button and pay whatever I owe. If I don't agree, or some info is missing, I add it in and then click the button. It's astronomically easier than filing the same tax information in the US and takes far less time even though the tax code is less clearly written and user support is almost totally nonexistent. The nonexistence of a national ID system makes digital identification unnecessarily difficult. The idea that an individual has to redeclare to the IRS what has already been declared to the IRS on W2s and 1099s is just stupid. The US tax filing system is simply primitive.
- trevorboaconstr 4y ago
  It’s intentional.
- AviationAtom 4y ago
  The reason the US lacks a national ID system ties back to a strongly held belief about state's rights, and that a national ID system would violate those rights, IIRC. I think it's already somewhat happened though, as I understand REAL ID to more or less be that.
  - jackson1442 4y ago
    Not to mention the fact that SSNs are horribly insecure and used as a national ID anyways because it's the only national number (almost) everyone has. I just use a passport for govt identification because it usually only requires the passport, where most other ID methods require two.
  - Finnucane 4y ago
    Having a national ID would make it harder for states to abuse minorities and low-income communities. That’s why states object to it.
  - sorry_outta_gas 4y ago
    I wish we used the covid vaccine system to finally push for it one of the best chances we've had in a while
makecheck 4y ago
The upsells on TurboTax are getting a lot more shameless in recent years. I saw the exact same one pop up at least 2-3 times. The one that really aggravated me though was the one at the end: after you FILE your taxes, they present this damned progress-bar looking thing as if you are somehow “not done” yet, as if this totally optional product sale is a required step!! No, no, no, that is just misleading garbage, and it is so annoying to have to constantly hunt around the page for the magic text to get around these things. I mean, I couldn’t even reach the page that lets me download my forms as PDF until I skipped this upsell. What’s more, the product itself is getting more expensive but worse. On desktop, the whole thing is just a blown-up mobile UI (are that many people doing taxes on their phones!?) with all kinds of things unnecessarily hidden. On page after page, there is more than enough space to show everything but instead it’s giant white space everywhere; they HIDE things behind disclosure arrows, and with no logic whatsoever; e.g. on one page it shows the 2020 numbers by default but hides all the 2021 numbers behind arrows!? Guess what isn’t an insultingly-small, truncated experience on desktop? The ads, the upsells. THOSE are full-page, taking full advantage of screen space and even scrolling off the edges. Really shows their priorities.
- Teknoman117 4y ago
  Their competitor TaxAct is being more brash as well. I've been filing the same forms for the last 5 years and the filing cost with them has risen gradually from $60 in 2017 to $130 this year.
- clairity 4y ago
  so just stop using turbotax, h&r block, taxact, etc. try https://www.freetaxusa.com/ https://www.freetaxusa.com/ or any other decent competitor not trying to monopolize or regulatorially capture the market. for simple returns, just doing it by hand and mailing it in is easy enough too. vote with your feet.
  - kaitai 4y ago
    I used to be able to do a return "by hand" (fine, using a spreadsheet). But now between the health insurance stuff and the child tax credit there is a whole raft of additional forms that did not even exist just a few years back.
ibdf 4y ago
After reading similar articles in previous years I finally decided to switch. After 10 years with Turbotax, I switched to the Cash App tax app. It was a bit more work to enter the data, but it was actually free. Turbotax free tier barely covers anything and they will bug you every step of the process to upgrade.
- assbuttbuttass 4y ago
  I also used Cash App this year to file. I found it remarkably simple and easy compared to completing the forms by hand.
slg 4y ago
I hate how this story is always framed as the fault of evil TurboTax/Intuit. They are simply lobbying for their continued existence. Countless companies do that. The real villains of this story are the politicians who TurtboTax/Intuit have successfully lobbied. The problem isn't people trying to influence the government to do the wrong thing. The problem is the government can so easily be convinced to do the wrong thing.
- maxerickson 4y ago
  I'm not engaged in directly lobbying the government to do stupid things that are profitable for me, so I feel pretty okay judging people that are.
- oo0shiny 4y ago
  I would argue that perhaps both are the bad guys in this situation.
  - runnerup 4y ago
    Truly. At some point, there is a person with far more money than their family would ever need, even only counting annual interest earned instead of principal. Current CEO has net worth of >$100 million. In fairness, the poorest board member of intuit has half a dozen positions earning $150,000 to $350,000 and _may_ not have accumulated true financial independence. But other board members have over $200 Million. Those people make the following decision Every. Single. Year: “let’s try to get the government to make taxes far harder and riskier for hundreds of millions of Americans so that I can be even more rich than I already am.” It would be more excusable if they merely hadn’t lobbied for Americans at all, someone else did, and they reacted quickly to additionally reap the benefits of the same policy. But when you are already well past having all the money your family could ever need, and choose to try to get the government to fuck over hundreds of millions of people, then the blame lands on you just as much as the politician.
    - cortesoft 4y ago
      I think if you are going to be charitable, they aren’t just looking after their own bottom line. Intuit employs 14,000 people, so they are also doing as much as possible to keep their jobs. Of course, that is still a drop in the bucket compared to how many people suffer because of their lobbying, but it isn’t about simply one person being greedy for themselves.
TillE 4y ago
As an American living overseas, I'm forced to file taxes every year even though I pay the IRS $0. It therefore seems very silly to pay around $100 a year for tax software. In previous years, TurboTax's free option was pretty great. This year, my only real option was TaxSlayer, since the others required a US mobile number. It worked, but it was very primitive compared to TurboTax. I could've e-filed IRS forms directly, except I also needed to file state taxes, which directed me to use private software. A very stupid system of filing a bunch of paperwork through private companies just so I can pay/receive $0.
- umvi 4y ago
  Just to play devil's advocate though, there's a difference in the information conveyed between declaring you owe $0 and not making a declaration at all. Or to put it into computer terms, IRS doesn't interpret "no return" as meaning you owe zero taxes but rather as a null (i.e. a person that didn't file a return).
- kube-system 4y ago
  Look on the bright side, most of us who pay money for tax software get much less than a $108,700 deduction!
- alfalfasprout 4y ago
  I mean the stupid thing there is owing US taxes despite living and working primarily abroad. The US is only one of two countries that does this.
mattwad 4y ago
freetaxusa.org is a fine alternative
- yetanother-1 4y ago
  This is not 100% free (fanepalm)
outworlder 4y ago
I've done my taxes on Turbotax for a few years, and didn't even check alternate options because I had the perception they were clunky. I've tried for the first time FreeTaxUSA to prepare my mother's tax return. Guess what? It's even better than Turbotax in some aspects(the UI is similar, but doesn't waste your time with animations), and way cheaper. It only charges you to file state but, if you come from the Free File IRS website (and are under the income requirements), it doesn't even charge you that. There's one upsell for their tax consultants or whatever, but it's only done once. It does not automatically import W2s though, but that saves you maybe 5 minutes per W2. Not sure about stock transactions import either, it seems they can't import from brokers. I will have to check next year. They do seem to have spreadsheet import, so maybe that's something we (as in, HN community) could fix until they have the feature. The competition seems to have improved as well, although I don't have first hand knowledge (but watched some youtube reviews where they walk through the filing with every software). It's time we ditch Intuit. If we can't have free IRS software, then we should at least bleed Intuit dry. EDIT: it's particularly egregious that Intuit came up with the Free File program as a compromise so that IRS wouldn't have their own tax software, only to leave the program.
- techolic 4y ago
  I really love the comparison with previous year(s) on some pages and that helped me spot a real error. The navigation is so much better than turbo tax too. If anyone is looking to convert from turbo tax, you can import your previous return as pdf and that could cover a lot of details already that don't change year over year.
  - js2 4y ago
    Note that if you do this and then change your mind, you can't delete your FreeTaxUSA account. You have to manually delete everything you've uploaded and replace your personal information with nonsense: https://www.freetaxusa.com/help/display_faq.jsp?delete-account-want-website&faq_id=1197 https://www.freetaxusa.com/help/display_faq.jsp?delete-accou...
- nosefrog 4y ago
  I also used FreeTaxUSA. It doesn't import stock, but it's easy enough to just input the stock summaries yourself, and then mail the full stock tax forms from your stock brokers to the IRS afterwards.
therealbilly 4y ago
LOL, TurboTax is using every dark pattern in the bag.
navels 4y ago
Does FreeTaxUSA have data integrations for banks and other financial services?
- orev 4y ago
  No. And I find it concerning that many people seem to feel that this is a make or break feature (as this is always brought up in this discussion). It really isn’t that hard to sit down and focus for a half hour to actually look at your tax documents and type in a few numbers.
  - reducesuffering 4y ago
    I find it concerning you assume my taxes look like typing in a few numbers that takes 30 minutes. Without Robinhood auto-import for stock sales, I'm looking at manually entering 100+ transactions with cost basis, sale price, sale date, and long-term vs. short term entries. P.S. if anyone knows another tax-filer with Robinhood auto-import, feel free to mention.
    - navels 4y ago
      I am not concerned about much of anything these days but some years this would be a non-starter for me, other years not a problem.
    - ApolloFortyNine 4y ago
      You can enter the summary you don't need to list each transaction. You should see the summary in the tax documents robinhood provides.
bastardoperator 4y ago
A lot of people dislike turbotax, but compared to what? HR Block which is basically a payday advance company at this point? I've done my taxes with turbotax for awhile now and haven't had any major issues. Maybe they are evil, but not enough for me to care considering I use it for like an hour or two once a year.
- jrochkind1 4y ago
  Well, the alternative the OP is about: > …There’s been proposals in Congress on and off for years, from people like Elizabeth Warren, to appropriate money to the for the IRS to do what it was thinking about doing back in the George W. Bush administration 20 years ago, which is to join many other developed wealthy countries in having an online filing process that’s free and offered by the government to all of us as citizens.
  - missedthecue 4y ago
    So Turbo tax spending less than $2 million was more powerful than the agenda of POTUS? Boy, Amazon with their $20 million in annual lobbying is getting taken for a ride.
    - jrochkind1 4y ago
      OK, you can disagree with the assignment of responsibility from OP (I'm happy to blame the politicians), either way that's the alternative we don't have but most similar countries do.
      - missedthecue 4y ago
        Perhaps the tax system in the US is far more complicated in than it is in foreign countries. I am trained in UK tax law, but not in US law, although I do file taxes in the US. The UK system is far more straightforward than in the States. On account of this, the US tax system may not lend itself well to automatic pre-filing.
- 4y ago
jmyeet 4y ago
This whole situation is a depressing demonstration of the ratchet effect [1]. Intuit obviously doesn't want free filing. They'ee engaging in rent-seeking behaviour and free-filing would obviously hurt their business. Politicans are bought ("lobbied") for a pittance. But the dirty little secret here is the complexity of the tax code. It's truly ridiculous. Everyone fights simplication of the tax code because every simplification will remove somebody's special exemption, write-off, accelerated depreciation schedule, tax credits and so on. Intuit loves this. The tax industry (not just Intuit) loves this: the more complex it is, the more money they make. Worse, there's almost an institutional resistance to ANY simplification based pretty much on the slippery slope argument: well if they come for Acme Co's tax credits for not growing corn this week they might come for mine next week. There's also an awful lot of dishonesty built into the system. Payroll and social security taxes are classified as "employer taxes" (in part at least). There are no employer taxes. Simple example: Social Security is 6.2% on the employer and employee (up to a cap). So if you have a nominal income of $100,000, the employer is really paying you $106,200 and sending $12,400 to the Federal government. Can't we just call this what it is? And don't get me started on the bullshit that is the standard deducation. In an ideal world, I'd like to see a consitutional amendment for universal basic income of $X per US citizen tax resident, a tax free income on the first $Y of personal income and just a flat rate tax beyond that. Congress gets to play with the values of X and Y. I'm not holding my breath. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ratchet_effect https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ratchet_effect
- dlp211 4y ago
  > Simple example: Social Security is 6.2% on the employer and employee (up to a cap). So if you have a nominal income of $100,000, the employer is really paying you $106,200 and sending $12,400 to the Federal government. > Can't we just call this what it is? You seem to be under the impression that in the absence of the employer side of the FICA tax, you would be compensated the full $6,200. This however is not the case. It is almost certainly true that you would in fact see very little if that portion went away tomorrow due to how tax incidence works and how your salary is determined.
0xbadcafebee 4y ago
The government's forcing them to give away their software and services for free. Why would they not fight against that? Have the government give a $100 tax credit to all tax-paying citizens to pay for tax software. You keep competition and private industry and companies get paid for producing their products.
lol1lol 4y ago
I paid $300 for TurboTax to fill two input boxes because I found the W2-C form too confusing
smm11 4y ago
PAYING to do your taxes is another scam we allow upon ourselves.
- bogomipz 4y ago
  Agreed. At least until recently though everyone could claim a deduction for the costs of their tax preparation. This deduction is now only available to those who are self-employed and even that is scheduled to completely go away in 3 years. See: https://www.thebalance.com/tax-preparation-fees-deduction-3192843 https://www.thebalance.com/tax-preparation-fees-deduction-31...
anonymousnotme 4y ago
There is open source software that one can use for the main flows and forms: https://sourceforge.net/projects/opentaxsolver/ https://sourceforge.net/projects/opentaxsolver/ It seems to work and will produce PDF of the forms with data filled in for one. I appreciated it. It will also handle some of the states. It took a while, but I did find how to check out via subversion: svn checkout 'https://svn.code.sf.net/p/opentaxsolver/SrcCodeRepo https://svn.code.sf.net/p/opentaxsolver/SrcCodeRepo' I use subversion so rarely, I always seem to have to figure out that the package name is "subversion" and not "svn" to install on my OS. Then I need to find a tutorial to know how to check it out. Then I just needed to build open tax resolver (no binaries are available for my OS). I have gotten way too used to git and github. :)
1024core 4y ago
My 2nd biggest[*] gripe with TurboTax (and Intuit) is that their software quality is low! I filed my taxes on January 30, and still can't print out my tax return. They tell me that the tax return is not "finalized" (or something like that), along with the "helpful" comment that usually forms are ready by end of January... it's April now, FFS!! [*] Biggest gripe being their effort to undermine auto-filing.
curious_cat_163 4y ago
IRS should build its own TurboTax equivalent and make it open source so all of us can contribute.
- JohnWhigham 4y ago
  That thing would be 5x over-budget, take 5+ years to build, there'd be a laundry list of contractors/subcontractors involved, and one of them would eventually leak customer data.
pilgrimfff 4y ago
I noticed that if you try to download a previous year's W-2, TurboTax will make you select "Why" before allowing you. One of the options is "considering an alternative tax software". Such an obvious dark pattern for retention. Just lie and select "I need to fill out the FAFSA"
WYepQ4dNnG 4y ago
As soon as you have to import any investment data (who does not have at least $100 in S&P these days???) and you also have to file state taxes, then turbotax ends up begin expensive. I think I payed something like $300 or close to that. I used to pay my accountant $500. And he was taking care of everything. Now, I have to collect data, struggle with turbotax ugly interface. Next year, I am going back to my accountant. My time is worth more than $200 bucks.
atsushin 4y ago
I was heavily considering using Turbo Tax a few years back until I learned about the various Free File options on the IRS. Previously, I was dumb enough to rely on those tax-preparation services despite my taxes being simple enough to do on my own... I was worried some of the options wouldn't be 'feature-complete' as I had some money earned from self-employment, but they were just as good (or better) than Turbo Tax despite the 'older' UI. Even if you don't technically qualify for Free File, the fees are much lower there than what you would pay on Turbo Tax. For example on 1040Now filing a federal tax return when ineligible for Free File only is about $20. Intuit can crash and burn.
bogomipz 4y ago
Further both Intuit and H and R Block have now completely opted out of the IRS Free File system. See: https://www.cnbc.com/2021/07/16/intuit-will-no-longer-participate-in-an-irs-free-tax-filing-program-.html https://www.cnbc.com/2021/07/16/intuit-will-no-longer-partic... and https://news.bloombergtax.com/daily-tax-report/irss-free-file-partners-moving-forward-without-h-r-block https://news.bloombergtax.com/daily-tax-report/irss-free-fil...
PaulDavisThe1st 4y ago
Big props to the state of New Mexico. Their online tax filing system was already pretty good last year, with a couple of rough edges. I went to file this year, and here was my experience: 1. login 2. enter my AGI from my federal return 3. enter my estimated taxes 4. done Postscript: 36 hours later, refund in my bank account I have no W2 income, am fully self-employed with no 1099's either. I had no capital gains/losses to report this year, but I have the feeling it would have been very easy to deal with that it had it been necessary.
dm319 4y ago
Capitalism at work keeping the rich rich and the public deprived of decent services.
oriki 4y ago
As someone who wanted to file taxes in Oregon this year without using anybody else's software, I was completely appalled by how inaccessible a system that literally every working American will have to interact with at some point is. They even got rid of the "Free Fillable Forms" option, so if you wanted to file and do your own taxes for yourself, you have to do the paper forms. It's 2022, and I can't submit my government mandated math homework electronically as a private citizen. That should piss an incredible number of people off, but nobody ever seems to think about it.
- aceki 4y ago
  But Free File Fillable Forms still works? Of course, it's only for federal returns. https://www.freefilefillableforms.com https://www.freefilefillableforms.com
crooked-v 4y ago
Blaming the current state of affairs solely on TurboTax is giving the Republican Party yet another free pass for their stated and explicit opposition to easily-filed taxes.
danrl 4y ago
Has anyone dropped https://ustaxes.org/start https://ustaxes.org/start yet? OSS US tax returns.
fma 4y ago
2 hours before deadling I figure I'll post my experience. I tried to use TaxSlayer to file an extension but it was slow my sessions keeps ending...over and over (same complaints on their Twitter). I had an account on TurboTax as well...tried to file an extension. Well, at least their system is up and running and responsive. They tried to sell me "Premium" in the middle of it. No, I don't want premium because I won't be able to finish my taxes in 2 hours. Just file my damn extension. Thanks!
it 4y ago
This year I had my taxes done by a CPA rather than by TurboTax as I had in previous years, and I'm so glad I did. There was no deceptive upselling. I never got confused and had to go hunting around on the internet for the meaning of some obscure question. I got to keep more of my money than I expected, and I plan to do the same thing again next year.
synicalx 4y ago
I honestly find America's tax system to be one of the most bizarre things about the country, TurboTax shenanigans being part of that. Every year around this time I'm reminded how lucky I am to have at least a somewhat sane and pain-free taxation system here in AU. Me filing a tax return involves bringing a folder of receipts, a page of notes, and handing them over to my accountant who charges me about $120 (tax deductible) the end result of which is I normally get a small refund from the ATO a couple of weeks later.
- YPPH 4y ago
  For me, in AU, it's as easy as 30 minutes filling in information in a government web application, namely myGov. Information which is, for the most part, prefilled for me. myTax is written by the Australian Taxation Office and is fairly simple and effective. It adopts a really simple design where you begin by ticking some boxes about your income sources and deductions, and then you only see the options relevant to you. Tax returns competed via this method are back in less than a month. Probably half the people I know do their own tax returns for free.
spacexsucks 4y ago
Turbotax, H&R block, et al. lobbied heavily against state supported easy modern tax filing systems
xtat 4y ago
Afraid to ever use TurboTax after it put me into a multi-year audit cycle. I was also paying for maximally upgraded plan with all insurance and everything.

804 points by xweb 4y ago

It gets harder every year to find tax software that isn't owned by intuit... I don't think any of it is free anymore for anything beyond basic returns. The IRS' paper returns get more complicated every year. It seems Intuit is winning this despite all the complaining.

jonny_eh 4y ago
"Cash App Taxes" is owned by Cash App which is owned by Square/Block Inc. It used to be owned by Credit Karma, which was bought by Intuit, but they (were forced?) to sell it.
- micromacrofoot 4y ago
  Ah, thanks for the info. Last I knew Intuit bought Credit Karma (who I did taxes with previously) and I didn't realize they were spun off again.
  - AviationAtom 4y ago
    Yes, the Justice Department mandated that they jettisoned it as part of the sale, as they knew what Intuit would do with it if they got their paws on it.
briandear 4y ago
But TurboTax does a great job. It’s a good product. Happy to pay for it. Not sure why all of the hate. The problem is the tax system itself, not the software.
- formerkrogemp 4y ago
  Intuit has been spending billions to lobby for complicated tax filing process and against the government primarily filling out your forms for you based on data they should already have on hand from mandatory reporting. That's why people hate them so much.
- micromacrofoot 4y ago
  Intuit lobbies the government to keep the tax system complicated so they can charge people to use their software. The majority of the civilized world spends almost 0 time doing personal taxes. Intuit steals our time and money.
  - dominotw 4y ago
    > keep the tax system complicated what happened to the original forces that created this mess. I am not convinced that if it wasn't for intuit we would have a simple tax system. > The majority of the civilized world spends almost 0 time doing personal taxes. this isn't actually true.
    - micromacrofoot 4y ago
      > this isn't actually true There are at least 50 countries with less complex taxes than the united states
      - dominotw 4y ago
        ok? What does that have to do with original 'almost 0 time' claim? Also complexity of american tax code didn't come because of turbotax/intuit. Do you really think we have stuff like credits for home improvements, credits for student loan payments ect are in tax code because of intuit? There are politicians right now trying to cram in more and more tax code because those incentives are incredible popular with American public. All this is not because of intuit.
        micromacrofoot 4y ago
        You got me "almost 0" was hyperbolic, I'll be more specific: In multiple countries personal taxes can be completed with little more than a signature, and most are simpler in general... the US ranks near the bottom in terms of complexity. I didn't say that Intuit caused complex taxes, I said they actively lobby to keep them complicated. Intuit spends millions on lobbying every year (against simplification efforts, as well as efforts for the government to create its own free digital tax filing system) and has recently pulled out of a federal free tax filing program, and are being sued by the FTC for their use of "free" in their marketing and performing bait and switch.
- _jal 4y ago
  > Not sure why all of the hate. .. I take it you have managed to post this without reading nearly every other comment?
- et-al 4y ago
  > Not sure why all of the hate. You're being facetious, right? They have dark patterns every step of the way to try to get you to pay more and to share your tax information. Their "free" is oftentimes not free. And on top of all this, there are countless articles about them lobbying to maintain the status quo of complicated taxes.
- Sohcahtoa82 4y ago
  I'm not normally one to say "Bro, read the room", but... Bro. Read the room. The entire comment section answers the question of "why all of the hate".
avrionov 4y ago
TaxCut is probably the biggest alternative. Owned by HRBlock. Not sure if the they are better.
wtf_is_up 4y ago
I found TaxHawk to be really good when I did my own taxes. Mainly I sought it out because it took in K-1's where TurboTax would need an upgrade.
- TMWNN 4y ago
  I'd been satisfied with TaxHawk in the past, but when my tax situation changed this time around I tested it with the same inputs as TurboTax with upsells costing 10 times more. After getting the same results on both, I gladly used TaxHawk again.

FYYFFF 4y ago

Millions of lawyers, accountants and bookkeepers exist only because the US tax code is so ridiculously complicated.

formerkrogemp 4y ago
It's job security for accounting folks alright. Just like web advertising keeps all of you programming critters employed.
- FYYFFF 4y ago
  Not me, but yes. Ads are the reason everything sucks. Adtech and its PPC / CTR have destroyed the world. Everything, in every media, is now clickbait.
  - formerkrogemp 4y ago
    Ads make the world (wide web) go round.

dang 4y ago

Related: Filing taxes could be free & simple. H&R Block & Intuit lobby against it (2017) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30856968 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30856968 - March 2022 (114 comments) FTC sues Intuit for its deceptive TurboTax “free” filing campaign - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30846071 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30846071 - March 2022 (555 comments) Ask HN: How does TurboTax get away with dark patterns? - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30409523 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30409523 - Feb 2022 (122 comments) Filing Taxes Could Be Free and Simple. But H&R Block and Intuit Lobby Against It (2017) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30185484 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30185484 - Feb 2022 (18 comments) Killing TurboTax - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26330584 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26330584 - March 2021 (662 comments) Show HN: ustaxes.org – open-source tax filing webapp - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26138446 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26138446 - Feb 2021 (219 comments) TurboTax Tricked You into Paying to File Your Taxes (2019) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26102695 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26102695 - Feb 2021 (306 comments) TurboTax’s 20-Year Fight to Stop Americans from Filing Taxes for Free (2019) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26060414 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26060414 - Feb 2021 (199 comments) FTC Is Investigating Intuit over TurboTax Practices - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24409093 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24409093 - Sept 2020 (194 comments) IRS Reforms Free File Program, Drops Agreement Not to Compete with TurboTax - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21923220 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21923220 - Dec 2019 (448 comments) IRS Tried to Hide Emails That Show Tax Industry Influence over Free File Program - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21393758 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21393758 - Oct 2019 (188 comments) TurboTax’s 20-Year Fight to Stop Americans from Filing Taxes for Free - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21281411 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21281411 - Oct 2019 (447 comments) TurboTax to charge more lower-income customers - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20461169 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20461169 - July 2019 (81 comments) Congress Scraps Provision to Restrict IRS from Competing with TurboTax - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20119916 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20119916 - June 2019 (18 comments) TurboTax Uses a “Military Discount” to Trick Troops into Paying to File Taxes - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19994118 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19994118 - May 2019 (42 comments) Listen to TurboTax Lie to Get Out of Refunding Overcharged Customers - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19870242 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19870242 - May 2019 (44 comments) TurboTax and H&R Block Saw Free Tax Filing as a Threat - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19810981 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19810981 - May 2019 (143 comments) TurboTax Hides Its Free File Page from Search Engines - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19758126 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19758126 - April 2019 (262 comments) TurboTax Uses Dark Patterns to Trick You into Paying to File Your Taxes - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19718284 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19718284 - April 2019 (274 comments) Congress Is About to Ban the US Government from Offering Free Online Tax Filing - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19613725 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19613725 - April 2019 (696 comments) How the Maker of TurboTax Fought Free, Simple Tax Filing (2013) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19392673 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19392673 - March 2019 (253 comments) H&R Block and Intuit Lobby Against Free and Simple Tax Filing (2017) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18956883 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18956883 - Jan 2019 (190 comments) Would You Let the I.R.S. Prepare Your Taxes? (2015) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17751383 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17751383 - Aug 2018 (424 comments) Why I'm boycotting TurboTax this year - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16844458 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16844458 - April 2018 (23 comments) H&R Block and Intuit Lobbying Against Simpler Tax Filing (2017) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16841449 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16841449 - April 2018 (232 comments) H&R Block and Intuit Are Lobbying Against Making Tax Filling Free and Easy - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13922482 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13922482 - March 2017 (234 comments) How the Maker of TurboTax Fought Free, Simple Tax Filing (2013) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13853150 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13853150 - March 2017 (439 comments) TurboTax Takes Aim at Smaller Rival in Fight for Filers - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11150694 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11150694 - Feb 2016 (87 comments) Would You Let the I.R.S. Prepare Your Taxes? - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9381437 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9381437 - April 2015 (150 comments) Would You Let the I.R.S. Prepare Your Taxes? - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9380232 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9380232 - April 2015 (124 comments) Filing taxes: It shouldn't be so hard - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5488084 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5488084 - April 2013 (56 comments) How the Maker of TurboTax Fought Free, Simple Tax Filing - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5443203 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5443203 - March 2013 (330 comments)

beckingz 4y ago

Going to give a +1 for FreeTaxUSA. Significantly cheaper than H&R Block and a user interface that is just as good. The large tax companies are engaging in regulatory capture and ought to be sidelined in favor of a healthy society.

linsomniac 4y ago
This is my first year filing with FreeTaxUSA and I'm quite happy with them. I bought the upgrade version, it was like $6 or $7, and then state was $14 on top of that. Quite happy with them. One downside, because I had some investment sales this year, and they would only let me enter summarized information, I have to print, complete, and mail a form with the itemized data. Thankfully, it isn't too large in my case.
- crazysim 4y ago
  I really hope FreeTaxUSA improves their investment sales stuff, maybe with import capabilities or something. If you go for the unsummarized information, you don't have to mail anything. Unfortunately, you gave to go through a ton of screens and enter each trade by hand.
  - ghoward 4y ago
    I have a relative that works for FreeTaxUSA. I'll let her know about your request. Edit: my relative says that it's already on the TODO list, but it takes a while with all of the other things they have to do. Edit: sanitized personal information because I'm stupid.
    - everybodyknows 4y ago
      Some brokers support CSV download of trade info. If FreeTaxUSA could then upload direct from the customer's PC, maybe ask for help understanding column names, that would be good enough for some of us. Tangentially, there are all sorts of good reasons for an investor to want a CSV available locally anyway. Analysis of one's misadventures, for a start.

rodric 4y ago

Lobbying is a two-way street: it would be good if for once the reporters that investigated this topic would name the politicians on the other end of it, rather than just (albeit deservedly) condemning Intuit for the thousandth time

morninglight 4y ago

Founding fathers wanted, "No taxation without representation." Maybe they should have been more specific.

Apocryphon 4y ago
Shortly after the revolution they put down several tax protester uprisings with armed force, this has always been happening. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shays%27_Rebellion https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shays%27_Rebellion https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whiskey_Rebellion https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whiskey_Rebellion https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fries%27s_Rebellion https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fries%27s_Rebellion

rootusrootus 4y ago

Any article on this topic is incomplete if it doesn't also include a paragraph on Grover Norquist. I'd argue that his influence has been far more effective than Intuit's lobbying.

patio11 4y ago
Came here to say this. I will try to avoid committing politics in the HN comments section, but it is a true fact that one side of the aisle has definite policy preferences on taxes and maximally does not want them to happen quietly without people noticing them. They will say this, at length and on the record, when asked about the topic. Their positions are sincere and flow logically from both their political preferences and incentives.
- lkbm 4y ago
  Milton Friedman once commented that property tax is particularly unpopular because it's the only tax for which people still have to write a check[0]. That said, we could make income tax more visible without requiring tax professionals. (e.g., end withholding and send me a monthly tax bill; show the money go into my bank account and then back out, whether automatically or forcing me to write a check.) [0] https://youtu.be/yS7Jb58hcsc?t=120 https://youtu.be/yS7Jb58hcsc?t=120
  - ghaff 4y ago
    In general, people with significant non-W2 income (e.g. dividends, capital gains, etc.) already have to file estimated quarterly taxes in many cases.
  - JJMcJ 4y ago
    Property tax is the only tax I know of, at least in the US, that's on static wealth rather than economic activity. Your stock goes from 500 shares at $20 to 500 shares at $2000, no tax on that $999,000 gain until you sell. Your house goes from $12,000 to $3,500,000, absent something like Prop 13 in California, your tax bill goes way up even though you have derived no income from the gain in value. This can be a hardship for people whose incomes have not kept pace with the house value.

bigbacaloa 4y ago

In Spain I log onto the tax agency website using my digital certificate. It tells me what I have been paid during the year, what I own, how big my mortgage is, etc. If I agree I click a button and pay whatever I owe. If I don't agree, or some info is missing, I add it in and then click the button. It's astronomically easier than filing the same tax information in the US and takes far less time even though the tax code is less clearly written and user support is almost totally nonexistent. The nonexistence of a national ID system makes digital identification unnecessarily difficult. The idea that an individual has to redeclare to the IRS what has already been declared to the IRS on W2s and 1099s is just stupid. The US tax filing system is simply primitive.

trevorboaconstr 4y ago
It’s intentional.
AviationAtom 4y ago
The reason the US lacks a national ID system ties back to a strongly held belief about state's rights, and that a national ID system would violate those rights, IIRC. I think it's already somewhat happened though, as I understand REAL ID to more or less be that.
- jackson1442 4y ago
  Not to mention the fact that SSNs are horribly insecure and used as a national ID anyways because it's the only national number (almost) everyone has. I just use a passport for govt identification because it usually only requires the passport, where most other ID methods require two.
- Finnucane 4y ago
  Having a national ID would make it harder for states to abuse minorities and low-income communities. That’s why states object to it.
- sorry_outta_gas 4y ago
  I wish we used the covid vaccine system to finally push for it one of the best chances we've had in a while

makecheck 4y ago

The upsells on TurboTax are getting a lot more shameless in recent years. I saw the exact same one pop up at least 2-3 times. The one that really aggravated me though was the one at the end: after you FILE your taxes, they present this damned progress-bar looking thing as if you are somehow “not done” yet, as if this totally optional product sale is a required step!! No, no, no, that is just misleading garbage, and it is so annoying to have to constantly hunt around the page for the magic text to get around these things. I mean, I couldn’t even reach the page that lets me download my forms as PDF until I skipped this upsell. What’s more, the product itself is getting more expensive but worse. On desktop, the whole thing is just a blown-up mobile UI (are that many people doing taxes on their phones!?) with all kinds of things unnecessarily hidden. On page after page, there is more than enough space to show everything but instead it’s giant white space everywhere; they HIDE things behind disclosure arrows, and with no logic whatsoever; e.g. on one page it shows the 2020 numbers by default but hides all the 2021 numbers behind arrows!? Guess what isn’t an insultingly-small, truncated experience on desktop? The ads, the upsells. THOSE are full-page, taking full advantage of screen space and even scrolling off the edges. Really shows their priorities.

Teknoman117 4y ago
Their competitor TaxAct is being more brash as well. I've been filing the same forms for the last 5 years and the filing cost with them has risen gradually from $60 in 2017 to $130 this year.
clairity 4y ago
so just stop using turbotax, h&r block, taxact, etc. try https://www.freetaxusa.com/ https://www.freetaxusa.com/ or any other decent competitor not trying to monopolize or regulatorially capture the market. for simple returns, just doing it by hand and mailing it in is easy enough too. vote with your feet.
- kaitai 4y ago
  I used to be able to do a return "by hand" (fine, using a spreadsheet). But now between the health insurance stuff and the child tax credit there is a whole raft of additional forms that did not even exist just a few years back.

ibdf 4y ago

After reading similar articles in previous years I finally decided to switch. After 10 years with Turbotax, I switched to the Cash App tax app. It was a bit more work to enter the data, but it was actually free. Turbotax free tier barely covers anything and they will bug you every step of the process to upgrade.

assbuttbuttass 4y ago
I also used Cash App this year to file. I found it remarkably simple and easy compared to completing the forms by hand.

slg 4y ago

I hate how this story is always framed as the fault of evil TurboTax/Intuit. They are simply lobbying for their continued existence. Countless companies do that. The real villains of this story are the politicians who TurtboTax/Intuit have successfully lobbied. The problem isn't people trying to influence the government to do the wrong thing. The problem is the government can so easily be convinced to do the wrong thing.

maxerickson 4y ago
I'm not engaged in directly lobbying the government to do stupid things that are profitable for me, so I feel pretty okay judging people that are.
oo0shiny 4y ago
I would argue that perhaps both are the bad guys in this situation.
- runnerup 4y ago
  Truly. At some point, there is a person with far more money than their family would ever need, even only counting annual interest earned instead of principal. Current CEO has net worth of >$100 million. In fairness, the poorest board member of intuit has half a dozen positions earning $150,000 to $350,000 and _may_ not have accumulated true financial independence. But other board members have over $200 Million. Those people make the following decision Every. Single. Year: “let’s try to get the government to make taxes far harder and riskier for hundreds of millions of Americans so that I can be even more rich than I already am.” It would be more excusable if they merely hadn’t lobbied for Americans at all, someone else did, and they reacted quickly to additionally reap the benefits of the same policy. But when you are already well past having all the money your family could ever need, and choose to try to get the government to fuck over hundreds of millions of people, then the blame lands on you just as much as the politician.
  - cortesoft 4y ago
    I think if you are going to be charitable, they aren’t just looking after their own bottom line. Intuit employs 14,000 people, so they are also doing as much as possible to keep their jobs. Of course, that is still a drop in the bucket compared to how many people suffer because of their lobbying, but it isn’t about simply one person being greedy for themselves.

TillE 4y ago

As an American living overseas, I'm forced to file taxes every year even though I pay the IRS $0. It therefore seems very silly to pay around $100 a year for tax software. In previous years, TurboTax's free option was pretty great. This year, my only real option was TaxSlayer, since the others required a US mobile number. It worked, but it was very primitive compared to TurboTax. I could've e-filed IRS forms directly, except I also needed to file state taxes, which directed me to use private software. A very stupid system of filing a bunch of paperwork through private companies just so I can pay/receive $0.

umvi 4y ago
Just to play devil's advocate though, there's a difference in the information conveyed between declaring you owe $0 and not making a declaration at all. Or to put it into computer terms, IRS doesn't interpret "no return" as meaning you owe zero taxes but rather as a null (i.e. a person that didn't file a return).
kube-system 4y ago
Look on the bright side, most of us who pay money for tax software get much less than a $108,700 deduction!
alfalfasprout 4y ago
I mean the stupid thing there is owing US taxes despite living and working primarily abroad. The US is only one of two countries that does this.

mattwad 4y ago

freetaxusa.org is a fine alternative

yetanother-1 4y ago
This is not 100% free (fanepalm)

outworlder 4y ago

I've done my taxes on Turbotax for a few years, and didn't even check alternate options because I had the perception they were clunky. I've tried for the first time FreeTaxUSA to prepare my mother's tax return. Guess what? It's even better than Turbotax in some aspects(the UI is similar, but doesn't waste your time with animations), and way cheaper. It only charges you to file state but, if you come from the Free File IRS website (and are under the income requirements), it doesn't even charge you that. There's one upsell for their tax consultants or whatever, but it's only done once. It does not automatically import W2s though, but that saves you maybe 5 minutes per W2. Not sure about stock transactions import either, it seems they can't import from brokers. I will have to check next year. They do seem to have spreadsheet import, so maybe that's something we (as in, HN community) could fix until they have the feature. The competition seems to have improved as well, although I don't have first hand knowledge (but watched some youtube reviews where they walk through the filing with every software). It's time we ditch Intuit. If we can't have free IRS software, then we should at least bleed Intuit dry. EDIT: it's particularly egregious that Intuit came up with the Free File program as a compromise so that IRS wouldn't have their own tax software, only to leave the program.

techolic 4y ago
I really love the comparison with previous year(s) on some pages and that helped me spot a real error. The navigation is so much better than turbo tax too. If anyone is looking to convert from turbo tax, you can import your previous return as pdf and that could cover a lot of details already that don't change year over year.
- js2 4y ago
  Note that if you do this and then change your mind, you can't delete your FreeTaxUSA account. You have to manually delete everything you've uploaded and replace your personal information with nonsense: https://www.freetaxusa.com/help/display_faq.jsp?delete-account-want-website&faq_id=1197 https://www.freetaxusa.com/help/display_faq.jsp?delete-accou...
nosefrog 4y ago
I also used FreeTaxUSA. It doesn't import stock, but it's easy enough to just input the stock summaries yourself, and then mail the full stock tax forms from your stock brokers to the IRS afterwards.

therealbilly 4y ago

LOL, TurboTax is using every dark pattern in the bag.

navels 4y ago

Does FreeTaxUSA have data integrations for banks and other financial services?

orev 4y ago
No. And I find it concerning that many people seem to feel that this is a make or break feature (as this is always brought up in this discussion). It really isn’t that hard to sit down and focus for a half hour to actually look at your tax documents and type in a few numbers.
- reducesuffering 4y ago
  I find it concerning you assume my taxes look like typing in a few numbers that takes 30 minutes. Without Robinhood auto-import for stock sales, I'm looking at manually entering 100+ transactions with cost basis, sale price, sale date, and long-term vs. short term entries. P.S. if anyone knows another tax-filer with Robinhood auto-import, feel free to mention.
  - navels 4y ago
    I am not concerned about much of anything these days but some years this would be a non-starter for me, other years not a problem.
  - ApolloFortyNine 4y ago
    You can enter the summary you don't need to list each transaction. You should see the summary in the tax documents robinhood provides.

bastardoperator 4y ago

A lot of people dislike turbotax, but compared to what? HR Block which is basically a payday advance company at this point? I've done my taxes with turbotax for awhile now and haven't had any major issues. Maybe they are evil, but not enough for me to care considering I use it for like an hour or two once a year.

jrochkind1 4y ago
Well, the alternative the OP is about: > …There’s been proposals in Congress on and off for years, from people like Elizabeth Warren, to appropriate money to the for the IRS to do what it was thinking about doing back in the George W. Bush administration 20 years ago, which is to join many other developed wealthy countries in having an online filing process that’s free and offered by the government to all of us as citizens.
- missedthecue 4y ago
  So Turbo tax spending less than $2 million was more powerful than the agenda of POTUS? Boy, Amazon with their $20 million in annual lobbying is getting taken for a ride.
  - jrochkind1 4y ago
    OK, you can disagree with the assignment of responsibility from OP (I'm happy to blame the politicians), either way that's the alternative we don't have but most similar countries do.
    - missedthecue 4y ago
      Perhaps the tax system in the US is far more complicated in than it is in foreign countries. I am trained in UK tax law, but not in US law, although I do file taxes in the US. The UK system is far more straightforward than in the States. On account of this, the US tax system may not lend itself well to automatic pre-filing.
4y ago

jmyeet 4y ago

This whole situation is a depressing demonstration of the ratchet effect [1]. Intuit obviously doesn't want free filing. They'ee engaging in rent-seeking behaviour and free-filing would obviously hurt their business. Politicans are bought ("lobbied") for a pittance. But the dirty little secret here is the complexity of the tax code. It's truly ridiculous. Everyone fights simplication of the tax code because every simplification will remove somebody's special exemption, write-off, accelerated depreciation schedule, tax credits and so on. Intuit loves this. The tax industry (not just Intuit) loves this: the more complex it is, the more money they make. Worse, there's almost an institutional resistance to ANY simplification based pretty much on the slippery slope argument: well if they come for Acme Co's tax credits for not growing corn this week they might come for mine next week. There's also an awful lot of dishonesty built into the system. Payroll and social security taxes are classified as "employer taxes" (in part at least). There are no employer taxes. Simple example: Social Security is 6.2% on the employer and employee (up to a cap). So if you have a nominal income of $100,000, the employer is really paying you $106,200 and sending $12,400 to the Federal government. Can't we just call this what it is? And don't get me started on the bullshit that is the standard deducation. In an ideal world, I'd like to see a consitutional amendment for universal basic income of $X per US citizen tax resident, a tax free income on the first $Y of personal income and just a flat rate tax beyond that. Congress gets to play with the values of X and Y. I'm not holding my breath. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ratchet_effect https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ratchet_effect

dlp211 4y ago
> Simple example: Social Security is 6.2% on the employer and employee (up to a cap). So if you have a nominal income of $100,000, the employer is really paying you $106,200 and sending $12,400 to the Federal government. > Can't we just call this what it is? You seem to be under the impression that in the absence of the employer side of the FICA tax, you would be compensated the full $6,200. This however is not the case. It is almost certainly true that you would in fact see very little if that portion went away tomorrow due to how tax incidence works and how your salary is determined.

0xbadcafebee 4y ago

The government's forcing them to give away their software and services for free. Why would they not fight against that? Have the government give a $100 tax credit to all tax-paying citizens to pay for tax software. You keep competition and private industry and companies get paid for producing their products.

lol1lol 4y ago

I paid $300 for TurboTax to fill two input boxes because I found the W2-C form too confusing

smm11 4y ago

PAYING to do your taxes is another scam we allow upon ourselves.

bogomipz 4y ago
Agreed. At least until recently though everyone could claim a deduction for the costs of their tax preparation. This deduction is now only available to those who are self-employed and even that is scheduled to completely go away in 3 years. See: https://www.thebalance.com/tax-preparation-fees-deduction-3192843 https://www.thebalance.com/tax-preparation-fees-deduction-31...

anonymousnotme 4y ago

There is open source software that one can use for the main flows and forms: https://sourceforge.net/projects/opentaxsolver/ https://sourceforge.net/projects/opentaxsolver/ It seems to work and will produce PDF of the forms with data filled in for one. I appreciated it. It will also handle some of the states. It took a while, but I did find how to check out via subversion: svn checkout 'https://svn.code.sf.net/p/opentaxsolver/SrcCodeRepo https://svn.code.sf.net/p/opentaxsolver/SrcCodeRepo' I use subversion so rarely, I always seem to have to figure out that the package name is "subversion" and not "svn" to install on my OS. Then I need to find a tutorial to know how to check it out. Then I just needed to build open tax resolver (no binaries are available for my OS). I have gotten way too used to git and github. :)

1024core 4y ago

My 2nd biggest[*] gripe with TurboTax (and Intuit) is that their software quality is low! I filed my taxes on January 30, and still can't print out my tax return. They tell me that the tax return is not "finalized" (or something like that), along with the "helpful" comment that usually forms are ready by end of January... it's April now, FFS!! [*] Biggest gripe being their effort to undermine auto-filing.

curious_cat_163 4y ago

IRS should build its own TurboTax equivalent and make it open source so all of us can contribute.

JohnWhigham 4y ago
That thing would be 5x over-budget, take 5+ years to build, there'd be a laundry list of contractors/subcontractors involved, and one of them would eventually leak customer data.

pilgrimfff 4y ago

I noticed that if you try to download a previous year's W-2, TurboTax will make you select "Why" before allowing you. One of the options is "considering an alternative tax software". Such an obvious dark pattern for retention. Just lie and select "I need to fill out the FAFSA"

WYepQ4dNnG 4y ago

As soon as you have to import any investment data (who does not have at least $100 in S&P these days???) and you also have to file state taxes, then turbotax ends up begin expensive. I think I payed something like $300 or close to that. I used to pay my accountant $500. And he was taking care of everything. Now, I have to collect data, struggle with turbotax ugly interface. Next year, I am going back to my accountant. My time is worth more than $200 bucks.

atsushin 4y ago

I was heavily considering using Turbo Tax a few years back until I learned about the various Free File options on the IRS. Previously, I was dumb enough to rely on those tax-preparation services despite my taxes being simple enough to do on my own... I was worried some of the options wouldn't be 'feature-complete' as I had some money earned from self-employment, but they were just as good (or better) than Turbo Tax despite the 'older' UI. Even if you don't technically qualify for Free File, the fees are much lower there than what you would pay on Turbo Tax. For example on 1040Now filing a federal tax return when ineligible for Free File only is about $20. Intuit can crash and burn.

bogomipz 4y ago

Further both Intuit and H and R Block have now completely opted out of the IRS Free File system. See: https://www.cnbc.com/2021/07/16/intuit-will-no-longer-participate-in-an-irs-free-tax-filing-program-.html https://www.cnbc.com/2021/07/16/intuit-will-no-longer-partic... and https://news.bloombergtax.com/daily-tax-report/irss-free-file-partners-moving-forward-without-h-r-block https://news.bloombergtax.com/daily-tax-report/irss-free-fil...

PaulDavisThe1st 4y ago

Big props to the state of New Mexico. Their online tax filing system was already pretty good last year, with a couple of rough edges. I went to file this year, and here was my experience: 1. login 2. enter my AGI from my federal return 3. enter my estimated taxes 4. done Postscript: 36 hours later, refund in my bank account I have no W2 income, am fully self-employed with no 1099's either. I had no capital gains/losses to report this year, but I have the feeling it would have been very easy to deal with that it had it been necessary.

dm319 4y ago

Capitalism at work keeping the rich rich and the public deprived of decent services.

oriki 4y ago

As someone who wanted to file taxes in Oregon this year without using anybody else's software, I was completely appalled by how inaccessible a system that literally every working American will have to interact with at some point is. They even got rid of the "Free Fillable Forms" option, so if you wanted to file and do your own taxes for yourself, you have to do the paper forms. It's 2022, and I can't submit my government mandated math homework electronically as a private citizen. That should piss an incredible number of people off, but nobody ever seems to think about it.

aceki 4y ago
But Free File Fillable Forms still works? Of course, it's only for federal returns. https://www.freefilefillableforms.com https://www.freefilefillableforms.com

crooked-v 4y ago

Blaming the current state of affairs solely on TurboTax is giving the Republican Party yet another free pass for their stated and explicit opposition to easily-filed taxes.

danrl 4y ago

Has anyone dropped https://ustaxes.org/start https://ustaxes.org/start yet? OSS US tax returns.

fma 4y ago

2 hours before deadling I figure I'll post my experience. I tried to use TaxSlayer to file an extension but it was slow my sessions keeps ending...over and over (same complaints on their Twitter). I had an account on TurboTax as well...tried to file an extension. Well, at least their system is up and running and responsive. They tried to sell me "Premium" in the middle of it. No, I don't want premium because I won't be able to finish my taxes in 2 hours. Just file my damn extension. Thanks!

it 4y ago

This year I had my taxes done by a CPA rather than by TurboTax as I had in previous years, and I'm so glad I did. There was no deceptive upselling. I never got confused and had to go hunting around on the internet for the meaning of some obscure question. I got to keep more of my money than I expected, and I plan to do the same thing again next year.

synicalx 4y ago

I honestly find America's tax system to be one of the most bizarre things about the country, TurboTax shenanigans being part of that. Every year around this time I'm reminded how lucky I am to have at least a somewhat sane and pain-free taxation system here in AU. Me filing a tax return involves bringing a folder of receipts, a page of notes, and handing them over to my accountant who charges me about $120 (tax deductible) the end result of which is I normally get a small refund from the ATO a couple of weeks later.

YPPH 4y ago
For me, in AU, it's as easy as 30 minutes filling in information in a government web application, namely myGov. Information which is, for the most part, prefilled for me. myTax is written by the Australian Taxation Office and is fairly simple and effective. It adopts a really simple design where you begin by ticking some boxes about your income sources and deductions, and then you only see the options relevant to you. Tax returns competed via this method are back in less than a month. Probably half the people I know do their own tax returns for free.

spacexsucks 4y ago

Turbotax, H&R block, et al. lobbied heavily against state supported easy modern tax filing systems

xtat 4y ago

Afraid to ever use TurboTax after it put me into a multi-year audit cycle. I was also paying for maximally upgraded plan with all insurance and everything.