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The internet didn’t kill counterculture – you just won’t find it on Instagram

559 points by isanengineer 6y ago

uniqueid 6y ago
Is there anything but counterculture on the internet anymore? How I miss the occasional measured, adult point of view! The internet has destroyed most of my interest in eccentric artists or alternative viewpoints.
Animats 6y ago
Yet his examples are people who did stuff to get clicks. Arguably, the most effective counterculture in recent times was QAnon. That didn't end well.
- galangalalgol 6y ago
  It didn't end at all, I still see people adding Q stickers to cars.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
- shakezula 6y ago
  It's been very interesting to see counter culture swing to the (arguably far but that part is up for interpretation) right. Terrifying, but nonetheless interesting.
  - edrxty 6y ago
    In a way this makes sense, the mega platforms have become a highly uniform slightly left leaning milquetoast walled city. That leaves being either a raging socialist (guilty) or a raging....bigot. The far right isn't tolerated as they're dangerous to advertisers sensitivities. Meanwhile the far left individuals are mostly tolerated but they're also all very aware that if the far right were to disappear overnight, they'd be the next target.
    - shakezula 6y ago
      I'm hesitant to even admit that far-left politics are more accepted; I've seen harsher rejection of socialist ideals than legitimate, objective fascism. But I agree with your general point - if the far right was gone overnight, the far left would be next up on the chopping block. > highly uniform slightly left leaning milquetoast walled city. This is absolutely true, though. It's become their immediate point of mockery for any right leaning people. They get to call us robots, NPCs, brittle snowflakes, etc... and the left doesn't have a good retort. :shrug: It's frustrating, because I think that the left should chill out with the identity politics and at least start trying to focus on larger issues and really drive those points home - healthcare, income inequality, etc... those are issues that have overwhelming public support but are constantly able to be derailed by republican talking points because of the identity politics.
      - edrxty 6y ago
        > I'm hesitant to even admit that far-left politics are more accepted Yea, I should have been more specific, it depends heavily on the circles you run in. > It's frustrating, because I think that the left should chill out with the identity politics It seems to me like this is not uncommon. There's a lot of oneupmanship in politics where whoever is the most rigid and unyielding to complexity in their belief system is the most worshiped because people can't distinguish a rigid ideology from an internally consistent one. On the left this results in constant twitter mobs and on the right it results in capitol mobs. That said, while it makes an easy target for the right to rally around, if that were to go away, the reality distortion field would just target the next-lowest hanging fruit.
        shakezula 6y ago
        > the reality distortion field would just target the next-lowest hanging fruit. social media in a nutshell, unfortunately. > people can't distinguish a rigid ideology from an internally consistent one. I think this is one of the things people like about Bernie, tbh. I think his consistent and reliable world view (and voting record to match) is why he's been so successful. It's just sad that he's not the standard. It feels like even when we "win" (air quotes are doing a lot of work ehre) e.g. Joe Biden or something, the goal posts get pushed and somehow all of a sudden it was catching an L when Biden won? The recurring theme in American politics, to me, is that the right falls in line and votes, the left eats their own. I keep seeing it right now and I'm worried we won't hold it together in 2022 or 2024.
- spaetzleesser 6y ago
  A lot of qanon came from flat earth and now have moved on to vaccines and other conspiracies. I wonder what they'll be doing next year but I am sure they will find something. There is a significant part of the population who are deeply uncomfortable with the state of the world and look for an explanation that comforts them. This used to be mainly religion but it's spreading out into things like qanon. Extreme partisanship probably has the same origin because it explains that the world is bad because of "others".
  - Animats 6y ago
    There is a significant part of the population who are deeply uncomfortable with the state of the world and look for an explanation that comforts them. Yes. A real problem is that the US has no consensus on how society should work. It did, in, say, the 1950s. People were expected to get jobs, and work, and the spectrum of available jobs was matched, roughly, to the range of human capabilities. That was a generally stable situation. That's the US from 1945 to 1975 or so. That's changed, leaving behind a huge number of unemployed and under-employed people. More education doesn't help; about half of US college graduates are doing jobs that don't need a college education. Nobody really has a good answer to this. Which is why conservative populism looks to the past.
    - spaetzleesser 6y ago
      "Nobody really has a good answer to this. Which is why conservative populism looks to the past." And "Make america great again" was wonderful wording for that.
    - anticensor 6y ago
      Define underemployment.
- SyzygistSix 6y ago
  Your first observation regarding clicks was right on but QAnon is just another consumer choice for people to add to their Identity. As a general rule, if there is advertisement and sales around a space, it isn't countercultural.
JasonFruit 6y ago
I'm going to have to read this again to see if it's brilliant or just pretentious. But I'm going to print it and read it again more carefully, which suggests to me that it may lean toward the former.
- camjohnson26 6y ago
  Got about halfway through and feels like it’s taking a lot of words to say very little, the author seems to think it’s hard to be an anarchist today and that’s sad.
- rossdavidh 6y ago
  Keeping in mind, it can be both brilliant _and_ pretentious, especially in different paragraphs.
  - JasonFruit 6y ago
    Having reread it, I'm going with pretentious but occasionally insightful. Like me, I guess.
everdrive 6y ago
Still reading the article, but this is an interesting blurb if nothing else: "To be truly countercultural today, in a time of tech hegemony, one has to, above all, betray the platform, which may come in the form of betraying or divesting from your public online self." I hadn't thought of boycotting much of popular online space as being counter-cultural. It's an interesting thought.
- lukebuehler 6y ago
  I think there is something similar at work with decentralized platforms: they might never be as slick as their centralized counterparts, but it’s a kind of ascetic choice that opens new doors.
  - edrxty 6y ago
    I find this is a good way to learn. Comfortable mega-platforms don't really foster anything productive (generalizing, obviously) but when you start to play with the bleeding edge decentralized options it allows you see "what could be". Trying to rid my life of google has opened all sorts of doors. If you're a tinkerer there are a plethora of options available for you to customize your experience and discover new capabilities.
  - AshleighBasil 6y ago
    Do people perceive popular platform UI's as 'slick'? To me they always seemed like a mess that is insane to navigate because the company's massive org chart digests into a massive turd that gets smeared over the landing page. Facebook is the worst, but they all seem to have this problem.
    - mordechai9000 6y ago
      I think there is something slick about them, if you just go with what they put in front of you. Don't try to navigate beyond a very high level, just take what it brings and hope for that momentary reward that comes from the likes and the comments.
    - 6y ago
mdoms 6y ago
The truth is that today the counter-culture is the right wing dudes (and ladies) who won't be beholden to trigger warnings, won't treat particular words as if they have magical powers and won't try to get you fired if you openly believe that male and female are real concepts. If your cursor is hovering over the downvote button right now then that's natural - counter culture isn't popular. By definition.
- codezero 6y ago
  That's a fun and interesting way to look at it, thanks! TBH I think you got downvoted just for mentioning it, I don't think what you said is actually that controversial unless you're making a lot of assumptions about _your_ intent in sharing this, which doesn't seem fair.
  - mdoms 6y ago
    I'm not surprised by the downvotes haha. I never said I agreed with the things I mentioned - I am by no means one of those right wing people - but it's clear which way the cultural winds are blowing today.
    - fumar 6y ago
      What side of the counter culture position would you have been while MLK was pushing for reform? Would your line "its clear which way the cultural winds are blowing today" align with the prejudice side? I think so. Do you look back and see that movement as an evolution and betterment for all of mankind or do you see it as "winds were blowing the wrong way"? Change is hard and change requires you to acknowledge your line of thinking, beliefs, ethics, all of it may be out dated or no longer the form. Imagine how folks born at the turn of 1900's felt when MLK was popular.
      - mdoms 6y ago
        I'm not really sure what you're trying to get at here, but I will always side with human rights. I am not American BTW so this little piece of cultural trivia is not especially relevant to me. > Would your line "its clear which way the cultural winds are blowing today" align with the prejudice side? ??
helen___keller 6y ago
I think this is the biggest takeaway for me: > We saw this dynamic metastasize in the wake of George Floyd’s murder, when well-intentioned claims of “silence is violence” (recalling the powerful 1987 ACT-UP “Silence = Death” campaign) spiraled into calling out individuals with even a small following who hadn’t come forward with a timely public statement of solidarity or remorse. Yet public posts were subject to popular scrutiny and judged based on sincerity, originality, and tone. Not surprisingly, many people defaulted to posting a somber plain black square. But this generated criticism of its own by clogging the feed with an informational blackout during a moment when community resource sharing was critically important. Amid a chaotic time, the platform functioned exactly as designed: amplification of emotions, uptick in user interaction, growth in platform engagement and data cultivation. Cha-ching, the platform cashes in. In other words, any large movement or discussion on "clearnet" spaces gets subverted by the algorithms and profit motive of the platform they live on. However, where I disagree with the author is considering mainstream "dark forest" platforms like reddit or 4chan to be countercultural. In fact, I'd argue that mainstream social media can never be countercultural. While there may be no "algorithm" controlling the narrative you see on 4chan (or a straightforward and ostensibly fair one on a site like reddit), the content you see (and by extension, the narrative) is shaped by profit motive: From well-compensated marketing teams, to hordes of self-interested proselytizers (see: bitcoin), to propaganda teams looking to influence public opinion, mainstream dark forest sites simply shift the balance of power from the platform itself to the most motivated and well-funded members of the platform
- retrac 6y ago
  > While there may be no "algorithm" controlling the narrative you see on 4chan (or a straightforward and ostensibly fair one on a site like reddit), the content you see (and by extension, the narrative) is shaped by profit motive: From well-compensated marketing teams, to hordes of self-interested proselytizers (see: bitcoin), to propaganda teams looking to influence public opinion I've realized I have exactly one outlet free of this left. It's an IRC channel I've been in since the 90s. I thought about it and none of us are there for any reason other than that we have a common interest and like each other. No money involved, no names involved, and it's one of the more supportive and insightful communities I've ever found online. We've sometimes wondered why it's such a different community from the other places, and this article articulates why quite well, I think. We're old-timers holding out in a little pocket of what has been almost fully absorbed by corporate social media. I'm sure there are others. And I'm sure they won't tell you where to find them, either.
kart23 6y ago
I agree that you have to be essentially anonymous to take part in counterculture these days. But the author claims that Discord and Reddit are examples of counterculture. I wholeheartedly disagree, these platforms are overly sanitized, moderated by the company, not the community. On Discord, people get banned for empty mass reports, and they can delete servers as they please. Reddit is valuable for driving communities to self-hosted, private forums, where I believe that counterculture has and will be born from.
- TimedToasts 6y ago
  Reddit is the least countercultural site I can imagine. It's still Top 10 in sites visited, is it not? It's the very zeitgeist of the times. Those examples weaken an otherwise good article.
  - twobitshifter 6y ago
    Maybe Reddit as a whole, but what are your thoughts on WallStreetBets? It seems that WSB has all of the elements of a counterculture, although maybe diluted after the wide spread GME interest.
    - deliveryboyman 6y ago
      WSB is a shade of its former self now due to the onslaught of new members
      - monocasa 6y ago
        Has a "what was WSB before the eternal September" escape hatch subreddit popped up yet?
        ZephyrBlu 6y ago
        Yes, /r/wallstreetbetsogs.
      - 6y ago
jasonv 6y ago
My teenage son asked me the other day what "grunge" and "goth" were. I was then trying to explain "subculture" and "counterculture", and it was surprisingly difficult to explain.. or convey, especially in the context of what he's seen so far in his life. I tried using examples of my own youthful adventures and communities -- still not easy.
- pjc50 6y ago
  Kpop stans are a live example of a subculture, if not a counterculture, that teenagers may be familiar with.
  - bena 6y ago
    I wouldn't call them a counterculture by any stretch of the imagination. Kpop is deliberately manufactured culture. The personalities and music are meticulously curated by corporations. "Underground Kpop" is practically an oxymoron like a "married bachelor" would be. And that's not to insult or knock it.
    - Mediterraneo10 6y ago
      Listening to KPop in a country where it is not a major genre, might still be counterculture. Think back to the 1960s and 1970s: a lot of the American rock 'n' roll even then was curated, but those young people in the Soviet Union, say, or Morocco who started listening to it where definitely seen as a counterculture within their own country.
      - pessimizer 6y ago
        > Listening to KPop in a country where it is not a major genre, might still be counterculture. Abstractly maybe, but in actuality an enormous amount of money and effort is spent to market K-Pop in the US by some of the largest media companies in the world.
        Nasrudith 6y ago
NotChina 6y ago
Easy enough to identify that which the powers that be, deny a platform. The unaffiliated are generalized, and grouped together despite not being real bed fellows. What modern labels did not exist for the entirety of human discourse? Yet our modern generation is the first to recognize some condition that eluded all those previous generations. Persecution unifies, and becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. (e.g. the alienation of moderate Islam post 911)
echoradio 6y ago
I signed on to the internet when everything was handled through terminals, so I’ve always viewed cyberspace — and the culture which developed there — as completely separate from IRL. People can take on different personas, customs, etc. So it’s no surprise to me the customs within this “new” world are mirroring how a physical world society spreads across a spectrum of ideology. (Granted, the ideas don’t always blend with what exists in the real world.) I’ve often thought of the counterculture to online space as those who are breaking free of centralization and the digital “monopolies.” They’re the people who are homesteading on tildes, Mastodon, or their own self-hosted instance, for example. In cyberspace, FAANG are the new industrialists (the new informationalists?), so to me it makes sense that a portion of online society wants to separate or rebel from this establishment which controls a good portion of this cyberspace. As IoT becomes more prevalent, I can see those who seek a break from connectivity in general as countercultural, too. Some of the ideas in Aldous Huxley’s “Brave New World,” or Ted Kaczynski’s* “Industrial Society and Its Future” reflect this. * I do not condone Kaczynski’s actions. I’m merely stating the concern about technology’s negative impact on society has long been thought about. It makes sense that there would be those who seek to shun it entirely.
edrxty 6y ago
I think this ties in well with all the recent discussion around advertising and its effect on internet discourse. To become counter-cultural now inherently means foregoing ad revenue supported platforms, which inherently means you lose audience.
keiferski 6y ago
Charles Taylor, the philosopher, covered much of this about twenty years ago with far less snark and buzzwords. I strongly recommend reading The Ethics of Authenticity. It’s all about the trend of individualism and how it precedes social media by...centuries. https://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog.php?isbn=9780674987692 https://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog.php?isbn=9780674987692 Social media is no longer authentic so you’re seeing a slowly growing backlash against it. https://seoulphilosophy.wordpress.com/2015/06/19/charles-taylors-the-ethics-of-authenticity-chapters-1-5/ https://seoulphilosophy.wordpress.com/2015/06/19/charles-tay...
- airhead969 6y ago
  "Antisocial media" would a truthful title. I don't even like texting. Email is a letter replacement. Call me and pickup when I call, or GTFO. Faceblock, Twatter, Instaglam, Discard, Snapper, TikTak, LinkedOut can all listen to the flushing sound of me deleting their advertising monetization. "Buh buh all of your Ivy and Pac12 associations that made you look important on a résumé." Too bad, I haven't talked to most of those people in years anyhow.
  - wussboy 6y ago
    I hadn't heard "antisocial media" before but I love it
    - airhead969 6y ago
      The antisocial social club most def raises the Jolly Roger flag against "social" media. ;-] At some point, I just want a private platform that is paid for using microcredits, no ads/data harvesting, requires verified named people with faces (improved communication quality), connections only stay alive if you actually interact with them IRL, doesn't automatically share everything with everyone in a single context, and doesn't promote dangerous behaviors for likes/shares. The only purpose of hidden rating tags (in lieu of likes and shares) should be that a viewer's own incoming content gets slightly prioritized. Oh and no instant notifications, no news link sharing/"retweeting", no messaging or chat (there's email), and a user only gets to look at it twice a day. Basically, solve many of the societal and social problems FB exploits and creates.
Nothereearlit 6y ago
Won’t find it on Hacker News either All just SaAS and exits and praising Katie Haun and A16Z as Ross serves life in prison Uggh hate fake hackers and SV
NotChina 6y ago
Nothing validates ones views more than a circle of like minded curmudgeons judging everybody else.
imaginationra 6y ago
I run an independent film/animation/music/interactive studio- I have never owned any mobile phone and don't use any social media except for youtube. Our studio is not on any social media platforms. We are the counterculture. Our studio has released torrents of media over the past 15 years that I would classify as counterculture but you would never know because we aren't hustling on Zuckerbergian platforms or playing the "please look at me" game on Youtube etc. Trailerjacked trailer for counterculture game that makes animations https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vrMEQPtMO4c https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vrMEQPtMO4c Scene from a counterculture animated feature film in progress made in a game engine https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bgMeIaqjRvY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bgMeIaqjRvY Counterculture is not dead, its just not playing in the sandboxes everyone else is playing in, because those sandboxes are lame as fuck.
- JumpCrisscross 6y ago
  > its just not playing in the sandboxes everyone else is playing in Where is it playing?
  - greenonions 6y ago
    Youtube apparently. (This was sarcasm)
    - wussboy 6y ago
      And it was good sarcasm. The enemy isn't you tube. The enemy is the algorithm.
    - imaginationra 6y ago
      You are correct fine onion- This is youtube in 2084 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KZ3fOdorpCQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KZ3fOdorpCQ Great sarcasm by the way- its going to inspire generations of smart asses with the smooth chill it was written with. Snarky and effortless. Its like they were so confident in their sarcastic wit they had to include the parenthetical phrase- oh wait that was added out of fear of being misunderstood by the faceless crowd- quite the brave figure. Build a 4k video platform and we'll use yours.
andrewclunn 6y ago
I know I'm counterculture when I'm shadow banned. Suck it boot-licking conformists!
everdrive 6y ago
I was originally going to write a more thoughtful response, but then I got to this section: "The names of these e-deologies tend to be both fantastical and literal." "post-civilizationist" "voluntarist post-agrarianist" "Fully Automated Luxury Gay Space Communism" I've really never heard of categories like these. It makes me think the author has delved into subcultures I really have no experience in. In that sense her descriptions may or may not be valid. But, she makes no attempt to bring specificity to a lot of her claims. Who are these people in these subcultures? How many people are in them, and how many people are out of them? In this sense, it reads a lot like a "cultural studies" piece; there is some great individual insight, but the overall essay makes claims it hasn't supported.
- chordalkeyboard 6y ago
  > post-civilizationist http://www.johnzerzan.net/articles/why-primitivism.html http://www.johnzerzan.net/articles/why-primitivism.html > voluntarist https://voluntaryism.info/ https://voluntaryism.info/ > post-agrarianist https://yalebooks.yale.edu/book/9780300182910/against-grain https://yalebooks.yale.edu/book/9780300182910/against-grain > Fully Automated Luxury Gay Space Communism I can’t help you there, sorry :)
  - KineticLensman 6y ago
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fully_Automated_Luxury_Communism https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fully_Automated_Luxury_Commu...
markandrewj 6y ago
It's sort of ironic that the photographer for this article is on instagram.
kodah 6y ago
There's definitely an old internet culture that eschews social media and it has seemed to grow (again) over the years. One example is Freenode: - The network has some moderation, but bans are last resorts where on social media bans and temporary bans are part of the process. - Much of the moderation is left to channel operators and guides are given by the network on how to moderate. - Much of the network is apolitical and you can even be banned for talking about politics in many channels. This runs counter to pop-culture with encourages not only discussing politics but airing your politics with known dissidents. - Nearly every channel is topic focused, where pop-culture and social media encourage broad, boundaryless discussion. - Pseudoanonymity is still an option; in contrast to real identity policies in social media. You can't tell me that's not culture, but maybe it's not a whole culture just yet. That said, keep poking the bear cub and see if it doesn't grow up.
- simonh 6y ago
  You just described the internet I've been using for almost 30 years, split across various online forums, including this one. Couldn't agree more. I've managed to find a good handful of very high signal to noise Reddit topics too. G+ was good while it lasted. The trick is to have specific interests you care about and track down that community. They're out there. The encouraging thing is my kinds have found their own communities online and among friends without my help. They use Discord, Twitch, a bit of instagram and such. They're tech savvy geeks though, if somewhat differently geeky to myself. They know what they're interested in and look for that because most of mass culture is just occasionally amusing background noise to them. I'm very encouraged. I often see people bemoaning the passing of the old internet, but for me it's all still out there and thriving. Several new layers of it have developed too. It's just not the only, or 'biggest' internet anymore.
  - kodah 6y ago
    It is still out there, you just have to work to attain it. I'm happy to listen to the bemoaning, mainly because the newest and largest groups on the internet are the most problematic and most of them have no self-awareness to that end. Better that they hear the bemoaning and get a chance to change and choose not to.
cblconfederate 6y ago
I think platforms like onlyfans will end up bringing back counterculture, especially if more platforms emerge outside the uber-censorious US and esp, if they can embrace new forms of payments. porn is showing the way once again
- thelettere 6y ago
  I'm sorry, but I had to reply to this. People paying or receiving money for every single thing they say to each other and/or even access to do so is countercultural? It's the exact opposite - arguably the pinnacle of the absurd logic of capitalism and its processes of commodification.
  - cblconfederate 6y ago
    No it's people not needing to pander to the mood and whims of the crowd or the majority for every single thing they say , but being paid directly by their niche audience. I believe onlyfans is already too restrictive for them but it shows how it's done; we ll probably need something more anonymous
reilly3000 6y ago
From what I see on TikTok, GenZ are coming out as low-key marxists in droves. As a millennial I grew up through a process that started with believing in free-market ideals and slowly seeing them shattered with each passing atrocity of monopolists. I'd mark Enron/Worldcom times as a coming-of-age for my economic cynicism, and its been exponentiating ever since, especially through my journey as an entrepreneur and employer. These kids have had cynical humor and class struggle as mother's milk, and have little interest in repeating history. That isn't to say that conservativism doesn't have a place among today's youth, but its largely promoted with billions of dollars being poured into targeted influence campaigns. Bullshit has a tiny half-life these days as fact-checking anything is a matter of moving one's thumbs in a small incantation.
swayvil 6y ago
One way to rebel without rebelling is to pursue the exact same ideals as those pushed by your culture, except better. (Greg Egan proposed this technique in his novel, Quarantine) Snarking off about the ubiquitous hypocrisy would be one level of that, of course. (Seen in much popular comedy.) But there are higher.
ret2plt 6y ago
This is a minor nitpick, but I think claiming that anarcho-primitivism is less fringe than it seems because the youtube channel "Primitive Technology" is popular is seriously reaching.
mensetmanusman 6y ago
Counterculture completely aligns with corporate America now, it’s fascinating. The punk manifesto could be written by McDonalds.
- JacobSuperslav 6y ago
  no it doesn't. true counterculture means these corporations would be dead. they are just choosing few parts that make for nice ads.
- SyzygistSix 6y ago
  That was the former counterculture. Countercultures often get co-opted by mainstream culture; the trappings of the counterculture even more so.
foolofatom 6y ago
The kids are alt-right.
narrator 6y ago
I think the closest thing to counterculture today would be the world of cryptocurrency. It is the least connected thing to the rest of whole mainstream ecosystem that has serious unstoppable vitality. Btw, reading about Boyd Rice reminded me of Russian experimental electronic band GameBoydRice who makes music using a hacked gameboy and a mixer. https://youtu.be/lxzpatLthxE https://youtu.be/lxzpatLthxE Just one of the billions of random little market segments and sub genres out there. The mainstream had much less hold on the world than it used to. The platform censorship though constrains it. Crypto doesn't have those constraints though. One is reminded of how Wikileaks, getting locked out of every bank, took cryptocurrency donations and became hugely wealthy as a result.
real_counter 6y ago
You will find it on 4chan. /pol/ more precisely. The counter-culture that goes against all political, media, financial and corporate institutions.
scubazealous 6y ago
Counterculture will never die, it always adapts. While it is hard to find there are aspects of counterculture ideas on mainstream platforms like Instagram but they are obstructed. How do you define counterculture? It is outside the mainstream, yes, but it does not need to be hidden. There are still individuals and groups who are "against the grain" in our society and always will be. In my experience these people are relatively private when it comes to their digital life (not absent!) but can be amazing storytellers in other mediums, through song, dance, writing, etc. I think the biggest misconstruction is that the counterculture is a single shared idea or that it is freely accessible to the masses.
laser 6y ago
"We can imagine collectively held physical spaces reclaimed from empty retail or abandoned venues hosting esoteric local scenes" Where is this happening?
SyzygistSix 6y ago
One aspect of present-day counterculture that differentiates it from the past is the lack of focus on individualism. Individualism as culture has been sold back to us so often its relevance is necessarily less important now. Which may be another reason why it is difficult to find. It's also genuinely more scary than a loner in a leather jacket, in front of his car, selling rock and roll, hamburgers and Coke. In the past it was easier because the the counterculture was easy to find - follow the well-worn path of individualism to the last corners of censored culture. Now that those paths are almost entirely explored, finding a different, more inspired counterculture is much more difficult.
lanevorockz 6y ago
We are moving into a brave new world. Take your digital soma, stay at home, follow the rules and only speak the approved propaganda.
kjrose 6y ago
His definition of counterculture sorta seems limited. When punk and being a rebel is fully co opted by those in power, doesn't that kinda defeat the whole image part of being counter culture. Like in a fashion counter culture could be the Amish if the culture is extremely anti Amish.
rayrrr 6y ago
If counterculture has changed in this context, so has détournement.

559 points by isanengineer 6y ago

Is there anything but counterculture on the internet anymore? How I miss the occasional measured, adult point of view! The internet has destroyed most of my interest in eccentric artists or alternative viewpoints.

Animats 6y ago

Yet his examples are people who did stuff to get clicks. Arguably, the most effective counterculture in recent times was QAnon. That didn't end well.

galangalalgol 6y ago
It didn't end at all, I still see people adding Q stickers to cars.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
shakezula 6y ago
It's been very interesting to see counter culture swing to the (arguably far but that part is up for interpretation) right. Terrifying, but nonetheless interesting.
- edrxty 6y ago
  In a way this makes sense, the mega platforms have become a highly uniform slightly left leaning milquetoast walled city. That leaves being either a raging socialist (guilty) or a raging....bigot. The far right isn't tolerated as they're dangerous to advertisers sensitivities. Meanwhile the far left individuals are mostly tolerated but they're also all very aware that if the far right were to disappear overnight, they'd be the next target.
  - shakezula 6y ago
    I'm hesitant to even admit that far-left politics are more accepted; I've seen harsher rejection of socialist ideals than legitimate, objective fascism. But I agree with your general point - if the far right was gone overnight, the far left would be next up on the chopping block. > highly uniform slightly left leaning milquetoast walled city. This is absolutely true, though. It's become their immediate point of mockery for any right leaning people. They get to call us robots, NPCs, brittle snowflakes, etc... and the left doesn't have a good retort. :shrug: It's frustrating, because I think that the left should chill out with the identity politics and at least start trying to focus on larger issues and really drive those points home - healthcare, income inequality, etc... those are issues that have overwhelming public support but are constantly able to be derailed by republican talking points because of the identity politics.
    - edrxty 6y ago
      > I'm hesitant to even admit that far-left politics are more accepted Yea, I should have been more specific, it depends heavily on the circles you run in. > It's frustrating, because I think that the left should chill out with the identity politics It seems to me like this is not uncommon. There's a lot of oneupmanship in politics where whoever is the most rigid and unyielding to complexity in their belief system is the most worshiped because people can't distinguish a rigid ideology from an internally consistent one. On the left this results in constant twitter mobs and on the right it results in capitol mobs. That said, while it makes an easy target for the right to rally around, if that were to go away, the reality distortion field would just target the next-lowest hanging fruit.
      - shakezula 6y ago
        > the reality distortion field would just target the next-lowest hanging fruit. social media in a nutshell, unfortunately. > people can't distinguish a rigid ideology from an internally consistent one. I think this is one of the things people like about Bernie, tbh. I think his consistent and reliable world view (and voting record to match) is why he's been so successful. It's just sad that he's not the standard. It feels like even when we "win" (air quotes are doing a lot of work ehre) e.g. Joe Biden or something, the goal posts get pushed and somehow all of a sudden it was catching an L when Biden won? The recurring theme in American politics, to me, is that the right falls in line and votes, the left eats their own. I keep seeing it right now and I'm worried we won't hold it together in 2022 or 2024.
spaetzleesser 6y ago
A lot of qanon came from flat earth and now have moved on to vaccines and other conspiracies. I wonder what they'll be doing next year but I am sure they will find something. There is a significant part of the population who are deeply uncomfortable with the state of the world and look for an explanation that comforts them. This used to be mainly religion but it's spreading out into things like qanon. Extreme partisanship probably has the same origin because it explains that the world is bad because of "others".
- Animats 6y ago
  There is a significant part of the population who are deeply uncomfortable with the state of the world and look for an explanation that comforts them. Yes. A real problem is that the US has no consensus on how society should work. It did, in, say, the 1950s. People were expected to get jobs, and work, and the spectrum of available jobs was matched, roughly, to the range of human capabilities. That was a generally stable situation. That's the US from 1945 to 1975 or so. That's changed, leaving behind a huge number of unemployed and under-employed people. More education doesn't help; about half of US college graduates are doing jobs that don't need a college education. Nobody really has a good answer to this. Which is why conservative populism looks to the past.
  - spaetzleesser 6y ago
    "Nobody really has a good answer to this. Which is why conservative populism looks to the past." And "Make america great again" was wonderful wording for that.
  - anticensor 6y ago
    Define underemployment.
SyzygistSix 6y ago
Your first observation regarding clicks was right on but QAnon is just another consumer choice for people to add to their Identity. As a general rule, if there is advertisement and sales around a space, it isn't countercultural.

JasonFruit 6y ago

I'm going to have to read this again to see if it's brilliant or just pretentious. But I'm going to print it and read it again more carefully, which suggests to me that it may lean toward the former.

camjohnson26 6y ago
Got about halfway through and feels like it’s taking a lot of words to say very little, the author seems to think it’s hard to be an anarchist today and that’s sad.
rossdavidh 6y ago
Keeping in mind, it can be both brilliant _and_ pretentious, especially in different paragraphs.
- JasonFruit 6y ago
  Having reread it, I'm going with pretentious but occasionally insightful. Like me, I guess.

everdrive 6y ago

Still reading the article, but this is an interesting blurb if nothing else: "To be truly countercultural today, in a time of tech hegemony, one has to, above all, betray the platform, which may come in the form of betraying or divesting from your public online self." I hadn't thought of boycotting much of popular online space as being counter-cultural. It's an interesting thought.

lukebuehler 6y ago
I think there is something similar at work with decentralized platforms: they might never be as slick as their centralized counterparts, but it’s a kind of ascetic choice that opens new doors.
- edrxty 6y ago
  I find this is a good way to learn. Comfortable mega-platforms don't really foster anything productive (generalizing, obviously) but when you start to play with the bleeding edge decentralized options it allows you see "what could be". Trying to rid my life of google has opened all sorts of doors. If you're a tinkerer there are a plethora of options available for you to customize your experience and discover new capabilities.
- AshleighBasil 6y ago
  Do people perceive popular platform UI's as 'slick'? To me they always seemed like a mess that is insane to navigate because the company's massive org chart digests into a massive turd that gets smeared over the landing page. Facebook is the worst, but they all seem to have this problem.
  - mordechai9000 6y ago
    I think there is something slick about them, if you just go with what they put in front of you. Don't try to navigate beyond a very high level, just take what it brings and hope for that momentary reward that comes from the likes and the comments.
  - 6y ago

mdoms 6y ago

The truth is that today the counter-culture is the right wing dudes (and ladies) who won't be beholden to trigger warnings, won't treat particular words as if they have magical powers and won't try to get you fired if you openly believe that male and female are real concepts. If your cursor is hovering over the downvote button right now then that's natural - counter culture isn't popular. By definition.

codezero 6y ago
That's a fun and interesting way to look at it, thanks! TBH I think you got downvoted just for mentioning it, I don't think what you said is actually that controversial unless you're making a lot of assumptions about _your_ intent in sharing this, which doesn't seem fair.
- mdoms 6y ago
  I'm not surprised by the downvotes haha. I never said I agreed with the things I mentioned - I am by no means one of those right wing people - but it's clear which way the cultural winds are blowing today.
  - fumar 6y ago
    What side of the counter culture position would you have been while MLK was pushing for reform? Would your line "its clear which way the cultural winds are blowing today" align with the prejudice side? I think so. Do you look back and see that movement as an evolution and betterment for all of mankind or do you see it as "winds were blowing the wrong way"? Change is hard and change requires you to acknowledge your line of thinking, beliefs, ethics, all of it may be out dated or no longer the form. Imagine how folks born at the turn of 1900's felt when MLK was popular.
    - mdoms 6y ago
      I'm not really sure what you're trying to get at here, but I will always side with human rights. I am not American BTW so this little piece of cultural trivia is not especially relevant to me. > Would your line "its clear which way the cultural winds are blowing today" align with the prejudice side? ??

helen___keller 6y ago

I think this is the biggest takeaway for me: > We saw this dynamic metastasize in the wake of George Floyd’s murder, when well-intentioned claims of “silence is violence” (recalling the powerful 1987 ACT-UP “Silence = Death” campaign) spiraled into calling out individuals with even a small following who hadn’t come forward with a timely public statement of solidarity or remorse. Yet public posts were subject to popular scrutiny and judged based on sincerity, originality, and tone. Not surprisingly, many people defaulted to posting a somber plain black square. But this generated criticism of its own by clogging the feed with an informational blackout during a moment when community resource sharing was critically important. Amid a chaotic time, the platform functioned exactly as designed: amplification of emotions, uptick in user interaction, growth in platform engagement and data cultivation. Cha-ching, the platform cashes in. In other words, any large movement or discussion on "clearnet" spaces gets subverted by the algorithms and profit motive of the platform they live on. However, where I disagree with the author is considering mainstream "dark forest" platforms like reddit or 4chan to be countercultural. In fact, I'd argue that mainstream social media can never be countercultural. While there may be no "algorithm" controlling the narrative you see on 4chan (or a straightforward and ostensibly fair one on a site like reddit), the content you see (and by extension, the narrative) is shaped by profit motive: From well-compensated marketing teams, to hordes of self-interested proselytizers (see: bitcoin), to propaganda teams looking to influence public opinion, mainstream dark forest sites simply shift the balance of power from the platform itself to the most motivated and well-funded members of the platform

retrac 6y ago
> While there may be no "algorithm" controlling the narrative you see on 4chan (or a straightforward and ostensibly fair one on a site like reddit), the content you see (and by extension, the narrative) is shaped by profit motive: From well-compensated marketing teams, to hordes of self-interested proselytizers (see: bitcoin), to propaganda teams looking to influence public opinion I've realized I have exactly one outlet free of this left. It's an IRC channel I've been in since the 90s. I thought about it and none of us are there for any reason other than that we have a common interest and like each other. No money involved, no names involved, and it's one of the more supportive and insightful communities I've ever found online. We've sometimes wondered why it's such a different community from the other places, and this article articulates why quite well, I think. We're old-timers holding out in a little pocket of what has been almost fully absorbed by corporate social media. I'm sure there are others. And I'm sure they won't tell you where to find them, either.

kart23 6y ago

I agree that you have to be essentially anonymous to take part in counterculture these days. But the author claims that Discord and Reddit are examples of counterculture. I wholeheartedly disagree, these platforms are overly sanitized, moderated by the company, not the community. On Discord, people get banned for empty mass reports, and they can delete servers as they please. Reddit is valuable for driving communities to self-hosted, private forums, where I believe that counterculture has and will be born from.

TimedToasts 6y ago
Reddit is the least countercultural site I can imagine. It's still Top 10 in sites visited, is it not? It's the very zeitgeist of the times. Those examples weaken an otherwise good article.
- twobitshifter 6y ago
  Maybe Reddit as a whole, but what are your thoughts on WallStreetBets? It seems that WSB has all of the elements of a counterculture, although maybe diluted after the wide spread GME interest.
  - deliveryboyman 6y ago
    WSB is a shade of its former self now due to the onslaught of new members
    - monocasa 6y ago
      Has a "what was WSB before the eternal September" escape hatch subreddit popped up yet?
      - ZephyrBlu 6y ago
        Yes, /r/wallstreetbetsogs.
    - 6y ago

jasonv 6y ago

My teenage son asked me the other day what "grunge" and "goth" were. I was then trying to explain "subculture" and "counterculture", and it was surprisingly difficult to explain.. or convey, especially in the context of what he's seen so far in his life. I tried using examples of my own youthful adventures and communities -- still not easy.

pjc50 6y ago
Kpop stans are a live example of a subculture, if not a counterculture, that teenagers may be familiar with.
- bena 6y ago
  I wouldn't call them a counterculture by any stretch of the imagination. Kpop is deliberately manufactured culture. The personalities and music are meticulously curated by corporations. "Underground Kpop" is practically an oxymoron like a "married bachelor" would be. And that's not to insult or knock it.
  - Mediterraneo10 6y ago
    Listening to KPop in a country where it is not a major genre, might still be counterculture. Think back to the 1960s and 1970s: a lot of the American rock 'n' roll even then was curated, but those young people in the Soviet Union, say, or Morocco who started listening to it where definitely seen as a counterculture within their own country.
    - pessimizer 6y ago
      > Listening to KPop in a country where it is not a major genre, might still be counterculture. Abstractly maybe, but in actuality an enormous amount of money and effort is spent to market K-Pop in the US by some of the largest media companies in the world.
      - Nasrudith 6y ago

NotChina 6y ago

Easy enough to identify that which the powers that be, deny a platform. The unaffiliated are generalized, and grouped together despite not being real bed fellows. What modern labels did not exist for the entirety of human discourse? Yet our modern generation is the first to recognize some condition that eluded all those previous generations. Persecution unifies, and becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. (e.g. the alienation of moderate Islam post 911)

echoradio 6y ago

I signed on to the internet when everything was handled through terminals, so I’ve always viewed cyberspace — and the culture which developed there — as completely separate from IRL. People can take on different personas, customs, etc. So it’s no surprise to me the customs within this “new” world are mirroring how a physical world society spreads across a spectrum of ideology. (Granted, the ideas don’t always blend with what exists in the real world.) I’ve often thought of the counterculture to online space as those who are breaking free of centralization and the digital “monopolies.” They’re the people who are homesteading on tildes, Mastodon, or their own self-hosted instance, for example. In cyberspace, FAANG are the new industrialists (the new informationalists?), so to me it makes sense that a portion of online society wants to separate or rebel from this establishment which controls a good portion of this cyberspace. As IoT becomes more prevalent, I can see those who seek a break from connectivity in general as countercultural, too. Some of the ideas in Aldous Huxley’s “Brave New World,” or Ted Kaczynski’s* “Industrial Society and Its Future” reflect this. * I do not condone Kaczynski’s actions. I’m merely stating the concern about technology’s negative impact on society has long been thought about. It makes sense that there would be those who seek to shun it entirely.

edrxty 6y ago

I think this ties in well with all the recent discussion around advertising and its effect on internet discourse. To become counter-cultural now inherently means foregoing ad revenue supported platforms, which inherently means you lose audience.

keiferski 6y ago

Charles Taylor, the philosopher, covered much of this about twenty years ago with far less snark and buzzwords. I strongly recommend reading The Ethics of Authenticity. It’s all about the trend of individualism and how it precedes social media by...centuries. https://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog.php?isbn=9780674987692 https://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog.php?isbn=9780674987692 Social media is no longer authentic so you’re seeing a slowly growing backlash against it. https://seoulphilosophy.wordpress.com/2015/06/19/charles-taylors-the-ethics-of-authenticity-chapters-1-5/ https://seoulphilosophy.wordpress.com/2015/06/19/charles-tay...

airhead969 6y ago
"Antisocial media" would a truthful title. I don't even like texting. Email is a letter replacement. Call me and pickup when I call, or GTFO. Faceblock, Twatter, Instaglam, Discard, Snapper, TikTak, LinkedOut can all listen to the flushing sound of me deleting their advertising monetization. "Buh buh all of your Ivy and Pac12 associations that made you look important on a résumé." Too bad, I haven't talked to most of those people in years anyhow.
- wussboy 6y ago
  I hadn't heard "antisocial media" before but I love it
  - airhead969 6y ago
    The antisocial social club most def raises the Jolly Roger flag against "social" media. ;-] At some point, I just want a private platform that is paid for using microcredits, no ads/data harvesting, requires verified named people with faces (improved communication quality), connections only stay alive if you actually interact with them IRL, doesn't automatically share everything with everyone in a single context, and doesn't promote dangerous behaviors for likes/shares. The only purpose of hidden rating tags (in lieu of likes and shares) should be that a viewer's own incoming content gets slightly prioritized. Oh and no instant notifications, no news link sharing/"retweeting", no messaging or chat (there's email), and a user only gets to look at it twice a day. Basically, solve many of the societal and social problems FB exploits and creates.

Nothereearlit 6y ago

Won’t find it on Hacker News either All just SaAS and exits and praising Katie Haun and A16Z as Ross serves life in prison Uggh hate fake hackers and SV

NotChina 6y ago

Nothing validates ones views more than a circle of like minded curmudgeons judging everybody else.

imaginationra 6y ago

I run an independent film/animation/music/interactive studio- I have never owned any mobile phone and don't use any social media except for youtube. Our studio is not on any social media platforms. We are the counterculture. Our studio has released torrents of media over the past 15 years that I would classify as counterculture but you would never know because we aren't hustling on Zuckerbergian platforms or playing the "please look at me" game on Youtube etc. Trailerjacked trailer for counterculture game that makes animations https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vrMEQPtMO4c https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vrMEQPtMO4c Scene from a counterculture animated feature film in progress made in a game engine https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bgMeIaqjRvY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bgMeIaqjRvY Counterculture is not dead, its just not playing in the sandboxes everyone else is playing in, because those sandboxes are lame as fuck.

JumpCrisscross 6y ago
> its just not playing in the sandboxes everyone else is playing in Where is it playing?
- greenonions 6y ago
  Youtube apparently. (This was sarcasm)
  - wussboy 6y ago
    And it was good sarcasm. The enemy isn't you tube. The enemy is the algorithm.
  - imaginationra 6y ago
    You are correct fine onion- This is youtube in 2084 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KZ3fOdorpCQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KZ3fOdorpCQ Great sarcasm by the way- its going to inspire generations of smart asses with the smooth chill it was written with. Snarky and effortless. Its like they were so confident in their sarcastic wit they had to include the parenthetical phrase- oh wait that was added out of fear of being misunderstood by the faceless crowd- quite the brave figure. Build a 4k video platform and we'll use yours.

andrewclunn 6y ago

I know I'm counterculture when I'm shadow banned. Suck it boot-licking conformists!

everdrive 6y ago

I was originally going to write a more thoughtful response, but then I got to this section: "The names of these e-deologies tend to be both fantastical and literal." "post-civilizationist" "voluntarist post-agrarianist" "Fully Automated Luxury Gay Space Communism" I've really never heard of categories like these. It makes me think the author has delved into subcultures I really have no experience in. In that sense her descriptions may or may not be valid. But, she makes no attempt to bring specificity to a lot of her claims. Who are these people in these subcultures? How many people are in them, and how many people are out of them? In this sense, it reads a lot like a "cultural studies" piece; there is some great individual insight, but the overall essay makes claims it hasn't supported.

chordalkeyboard 6y ago
> post-civilizationist http://www.johnzerzan.net/articles/why-primitivism.html http://www.johnzerzan.net/articles/why-primitivism.html > voluntarist https://voluntaryism.info/ https://voluntaryism.info/ > post-agrarianist https://yalebooks.yale.edu/book/9780300182910/against-grain https://yalebooks.yale.edu/book/9780300182910/against-grain > Fully Automated Luxury Gay Space Communism I can’t help you there, sorry :)
- KineticLensman 6y ago
  https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fully_Automated_Luxury_Communism https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fully_Automated_Luxury_Commu...

markandrewj 6y ago

It's sort of ironic that the photographer for this article is on instagram.

kodah 6y ago

There's definitely an old internet culture that eschews social media and it has seemed to grow (again) over the years. One example is Freenode: - The network has some moderation, but bans are last resorts where on social media bans and temporary bans are part of the process. - Much of the moderation is left to channel operators and guides are given by the network on how to moderate. - Much of the network is apolitical and you can even be banned for talking about politics in many channels. This runs counter to pop-culture with encourages not only discussing politics but airing your politics with known dissidents. - Nearly every channel is topic focused, where pop-culture and social media encourage broad, boundaryless discussion. - Pseudoanonymity is still an option; in contrast to real identity policies in social media. You can't tell me that's not culture, but maybe it's not a whole culture just yet. That said, keep poking the bear cub and see if it doesn't grow up.

simonh 6y ago
You just described the internet I've been using for almost 30 years, split across various online forums, including this one. Couldn't agree more. I've managed to find a good handful of very high signal to noise Reddit topics too. G+ was good while it lasted. The trick is to have specific interests you care about and track down that community. They're out there. The encouraging thing is my kinds have found their own communities online and among friends without my help. They use Discord, Twitch, a bit of instagram and such. They're tech savvy geeks though, if somewhat differently geeky to myself. They know what they're interested in and look for that because most of mass culture is just occasionally amusing background noise to them. I'm very encouraged. I often see people bemoaning the passing of the old internet, but for me it's all still out there and thriving. Several new layers of it have developed too. It's just not the only, or 'biggest' internet anymore.
- kodah 6y ago
  It is still out there, you just have to work to attain it. I'm happy to listen to the bemoaning, mainly because the newest and largest groups on the internet are the most problematic and most of them have no self-awareness to that end. Better that they hear the bemoaning and get a chance to change and choose not to.

cblconfederate 6y ago

I think platforms like onlyfans will end up bringing back counterculture, especially if more platforms emerge outside the uber-censorious US and esp, if they can embrace new forms of payments. porn is showing the way once again

thelettere 6y ago
I'm sorry, but I had to reply to this. People paying or receiving money for every single thing they say to each other and/or even access to do so is countercultural? It's the exact opposite - arguably the pinnacle of the absurd logic of capitalism and its processes of commodification.
- cblconfederate 6y ago
  No it's people not needing to pander to the mood and whims of the crowd or the majority for every single thing they say , but being paid directly by their niche audience. I believe onlyfans is already too restrictive for them but it shows how it's done; we ll probably need something more anonymous

reilly3000 6y ago

From what I see on TikTok, GenZ are coming out as low-key marxists in droves. As a millennial I grew up through a process that started with believing in free-market ideals and slowly seeing them shattered with each passing atrocity of monopolists. I'd mark Enron/Worldcom times as a coming-of-age for my economic cynicism, and its been exponentiating ever since, especially through my journey as an entrepreneur and employer. These kids have had cynical humor and class struggle as mother's milk, and have little interest in repeating history. That isn't to say that conservativism doesn't have a place among today's youth, but its largely promoted with billions of dollars being poured into targeted influence campaigns. Bullshit has a tiny half-life these days as fact-checking anything is a matter of moving one's thumbs in a small incantation.

swayvil 6y ago

One way to rebel without rebelling is to pursue the exact same ideals as those pushed by your culture, except better. (Greg Egan proposed this technique in his novel, Quarantine) Snarking off about the ubiquitous hypocrisy would be one level of that, of course. (Seen in much popular comedy.) But there are higher.

ret2plt 6y ago

This is a minor nitpick, but I think claiming that anarcho-primitivism is less fringe than it seems because the youtube channel "Primitive Technology" is popular is seriously reaching.

mensetmanusman 6y ago

Counterculture completely aligns with corporate America now, it’s fascinating. The punk manifesto could be written by McDonalds.

JacobSuperslav 6y ago
no it doesn't. true counterculture means these corporations would be dead. they are just choosing few parts that make for nice ads.
SyzygistSix 6y ago
That was the former counterculture. Countercultures often get co-opted by mainstream culture; the trappings of the counterculture even more so.

foolofatom 6y ago

The kids are alt-right.

narrator 6y ago

I think the closest thing to counterculture today would be the world of cryptocurrency. It is the least connected thing to the rest of whole mainstream ecosystem that has serious unstoppable vitality. Btw, reading about Boyd Rice reminded me of Russian experimental electronic band GameBoydRice who makes music using a hacked gameboy and a mixer. https://youtu.be/lxzpatLthxE https://youtu.be/lxzpatLthxE Just one of the billions of random little market segments and sub genres out there. The mainstream had much less hold on the world than it used to. The platform censorship though constrains it. Crypto doesn't have those constraints though. One is reminded of how Wikileaks, getting locked out of every bank, took cryptocurrency donations and became hugely wealthy as a result.

real_counter 6y ago

You will find it on 4chan. /pol/ more precisely. The counter-culture that goes against all political, media, financial and corporate institutions.

scubazealous 6y ago

Counterculture will never die, it always adapts. While it is hard to find there are aspects of counterculture ideas on mainstream platforms like Instagram but they are obstructed. How do you define counterculture? It is outside the mainstream, yes, but it does not need to be hidden. There are still individuals and groups who are "against the grain" in our society and always will be. In my experience these people are relatively private when it comes to their digital life (not absent!) but can be amazing storytellers in other mediums, through song, dance, writing, etc. I think the biggest misconstruction is that the counterculture is a single shared idea or that it is freely accessible to the masses.

laser 6y ago

"We can imagine collectively held physical spaces reclaimed from empty retail or abandoned venues hosting esoteric local scenes" Where is this happening?

SyzygistSix 6y ago

One aspect of present-day counterculture that differentiates it from the past is the lack of focus on individualism. Individualism as culture has been sold back to us so often its relevance is necessarily less important now. Which may be another reason why it is difficult to find. It's also genuinely more scary than a loner in a leather jacket, in front of his car, selling rock and roll, hamburgers and Coke. In the past it was easier because the the counterculture was easy to find - follow the well-worn path of individualism to the last corners of censored culture. Now that those paths are almost entirely explored, finding a different, more inspired counterculture is much more difficult.

lanevorockz 6y ago

We are moving into a brave new world. Take your digital soma, stay at home, follow the rules and only speak the approved propaganda.

kjrose 6y ago

His definition of counterculture sorta seems limited. When punk and being a rebel is fully co opted by those in power, doesn't that kinda defeat the whole image part of being counter culture. Like in a fashion counter culture could be the Amish if the culture is extremely anti Amish.

rayrrr 6y ago

If counterculture has changed in this context, so has détournement.