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Unlike some other commenters below, I don't believe that this is a privacy issue. Instead, I believe that it is a national security issue because TikTok is cont

Unlike some other commenters below, I don't believe that this is a privacy issue. Instead, I believe that it is a national security issue because TikTok is controllable by the CCP which is ideologically opposed to the United States. The next global conflict will likely be one between the east and the west, with control of information being advantageous to both sides in the conflict. China already blocks the western Internet, so they have an advantage by default. This position is covered much more eloquently than I put it above in Ben Thompson's "The TikTok War" [1]. [1] https://stratechery.com/2020/the-tiktok-war/ https://stratechery.com/2020/the-tiktok-war/

schoolornot 6y ago
What exactly is the national security risk with TikTok?
- mike503 6y ago
  They’ll know all the social media patterns and likes of 14 year olds!
  - bravo22 6y ago
    Or they can push narratives and stories to manipulate their audience? If the main search engine in a country was controlled by a foreign entity that would be cause for concern.
    - YarickR2 6y ago
      Like.. IDK...Google ?
      - bravo22 6y ago
        Exactly.
  - triceratops 6y ago
    14 year olds grow up eventually and occupy important positions in society - judges, lawmakers, businesspeople and the like.
  - dapids 6y ago
    And that is somehow acceptable?
    - dapids 6y ago
      thanks for the downvotes
  - TheCuckedKing 6y ago
    Our pathetic ignorance is the reason the party that you and I will vote for will never win in America again in our lifetimes. We are cuck.
  - sheeshkebab 6y ago
    An incident in 2020 where TikTok users apparently tanked some Trump campaign rally probably is a bit more practical preview what controlling recommendations and likes could let CCP do (eventually... if they were not involved this time around) https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/21/style/tiktok-trump-rally-tulsa.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/21/style/tiktok-trump-rally-...
    - rgbrenner 6y ago
      I went to an Obama rally when he was running and just showed up.. no tickets. Got all the way to the front of the crowd. Another option is to charge a nominal fee for a ticket. Trump's problem was that he wanted to hand out free tickets over the internet. Just don't do that.. problem solved. If that's the limit of TikTok's power.. then I think we're going to be ok.
- slimsag 6y ago
  Information warfare - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Information_warfare#Books https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Information_warfare#Books
  - 082349872349872 6y ago
    Given that the oldest item on that list is 1993, I'm going to say they were all written by newbies. (my current bibliography only goes back to 1919, but a historical survey in a mid-century work came up with biblical examples of information warfare.)
- jtdev 6y ago
  Mass behavioral data exfiltration... mass biometric data exfiltration (faces)... censorship of those critical of CCP within the U.S... psychological persuasion of the masses... etc., etc.
- libraryatnight 6y ago
  Propaganda. You don't have to bother making troll farm accounts to spread misinformation and sow doubt when you control the platform and can create and drip content you want into peoples feeds, and you know what they like, you're already serving them an addictive stream of content based on their behaviors.
  - UncleMeat 6y ago
    What makes TikTok different than literally any other website in this manner?
    - guywhocodes 6y ago
      None really, the next Chinese successful "social media" platform will face the same treatment
    - mtrpcic 6y ago
      ...being controlled by the CCP is what makes it different. All of these sites/apps have the ability to shove propaganda in the faces of millions of people, only one of them is run by a government.
      - FpUser 6y ago
        And what prohibits any three letter agency hiring some intermediary and do the same thing on Facebook for example?
        pessimizer 6y ago
        > hiring some intermediaries There's absolutely no need. Facebook cooperates with three-letter agencies, and we expect them to.
        FpUser 6y ago
        You seriously think that if one of those decided to influence election (for a greater good of course) you would expect direct cooperation of FB in the matter? I'd think that the guilty party should be prosecuted for doing things like that.
- _jahh 6y ago
  child forces parent to install tiktok so they can watch memes, parent works anywhere sensitive TT pwns that phone
- crumbshot 6y ago
  I reckon it was probably just this: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/21/style/tiktok-trump-rally-tulsa.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/21/style/tiktok-trump-rally-...
  - IfOnlyYouKnew 6y ago
    You may be right (and the publicity alone would be sufficcient for this thin-skinned lunatic), but... doesn't that story rest on somewhat tenuous logic? I. e. they claim to have reserved far more tickets than capacity would allow to attend. But that seems to demonstrate that tickets weren't limited by capacity. So how did their action prevent other people from getting tickets?
  - rvz 6y ago
    > probably Please. Perhaps you didn't realise that they already launched an investigation before the Tulsa rally and also against FaceApp for the same reason: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-50639443 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-50639443 EDIT: Downvoters: So the concerns, investigation requests of both TikTok and FaceApp didn't occur in 2019 and for the former, the investigations didn't happen before the Tulsa rally? Are you sure? [0] [1] [0] https://www.cotton.senate.gov/?p=press_release&id=1239 https://www.cotton.senate.gov/?p=press_release&id=1239 [1] https://uk.reuters.com/article/us-tiktok-cfius-exclusive/exclusive-u-s-opens-national-security-investigation-into-tiktok-sources-idUKKBN1XB4IL https://uk.reuters.com/article/us-tiktok-cfius-exclusive/exc...
  - rgbrenner 6y ago
    Yes, I've said it before. Trump will attack you for writing an mean article about him. But somehow people believe that Trump leaving a rally visibly upset because of actions by TikTok's users and him attacking TikTok literally 3 weeks later are unrelated events. They're definitely related. It's literally an action->response... and it fits Trumps modus operandi perfectly... he's done it numerous times.
- LK83 6y ago
  I think they are just angry that TikTok users trolled the Trump Tulsa Rally.
- ekianjo 6y ago
  What exactly is the risk of a single channel of information controlled by one of the worst governments on Earth, massively used by younger people who are in the age of voting? Are you sure you need an explanation?
  - xvector 6y ago
    > a single channel of information You mean one channel out of hundreds? > controlled by one of the worst governments on Earth, As opposed to our current channels of information, that are controlled by billionaires that also couldn’t care less about Americans?
- gpm 6y ago
  Blackmail material gathered from it. Various forms of location data gathered from it, e.g. the location of any member of the military that uses it. Launching pad for zero days if China feels the need to root someones (or many someones) phones. Massive social graph, massive amounts of behavioral data. Useful, for doing things like identifying who was likely recruited by a spy agency or identifying potential assets that can be turned. Potential to pressure speech that China prefers, e.g. by rewarding popular creators with money only if they don't say things China likes, or by decreasing the reach of people who say things China dislikes. Potential for foreign control of the general trends of content people see. E.g. tweaking the algorithm so "it just happens" to suppress the potential to suppress topics china would prefer we didn't talk about (e.g. their "re-education" camps) or to boost topics they would prefer we did (likely things like political infighting). Most of these involve various levels of overtness. Many of them it probably only makes sense to start doing once you've captured the market (right now it's more important to onboard more people than to push a message). But I would view all of them as real threats if I was the US government.
zmmmmm 6y ago
> Instead, I believe that it is a national security issue Are you uncomfortable adopting that belief with literally no concrete evidence that anything of the sort is actually occurring? I don't know how you reconcile rule of law with such drastic interventions in the rights of companies without evidence of wrongdoing. If anything you can come up with in your most paranoid fantasies can be the basis of shutting down a company, pretty much anything can be done to anyone on the basis of anything, no?
- oh_sigh 6y ago
  National security is generally best when it is proactive, not reactive. If you think the CCP having this data could be a problem, you can't wait until they collect it all and use it in order to stop them. There is a reason laws like GDPR prevent even the mere collection of data, and don't wait until Google does something wrong with the data in order to stop them.
- revnode 6y ago
  > shutting down a company It's not a company. It's a division of a foreign government. That was the point being made. If it was an independent company, none of this would be happening.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - judge2020 6y ago
    https://www.bytedance.com/en/#corporate-structure https://www.bytedance.com/en/#corporate-structure ByteDance Ltd. (Cayman) -> TikTok Ltd. (Cayman) -> TikTok LLC. (US) Legally it is indeed a company and not controlled by the CCP, but exactly how much of its US operations are conducted and directed by non-US citizens on non-US soil is unknown.
    - jjulius 6y ago
      This post is going to be similar to my other two comments in this thread. First, it being incorporated in the Caymans is a technicality. ByteDance's headquarters are in Beijing[1] and they don't speak of a Cayman Islands office. In addition... > As with many Chinese companies, the company has an internal Chinese Communist Party committee serving the party members among the employees, with vice president Zhang Fuping serving as its Party Committee Secretary. It also has a strategic partnership with the Ministry of Public Security for the ministry's public relations efforts, and joint ventures with a state-run publisher in Beijing and media firm in Shanghai. ... It has garnered public attention over allegations that it worked with the Chinese Communist Party to censor and surveil content pertaining to Xinjiang re-education camps and other topics the Party deemed controversial. [2] [1] https://www.inputmag.com/culture/tiktok-weirdly-tries-to-suggest-its-not-a-chinese-company-as-it-brings-on-new-ceo/amp https://www.inputmag.com/culture/tiktok-weirdly-tries-to-sug... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ByteDance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ByteDance
th33ngineer 6y ago
Why would TikTok agree to a preliminary American takeover and transfer of all assets to American entities if they are taking directives from the CCP? If this were true I would expect them to fight tooth and nail against a deal with the likes of Oracle and Wal-Mart rather than champion it as they have been doing.
Aperocky 6y ago
All national security issues are inherently privacy issues. It's about how much you're willing to (or forced to) give up in the name of national security.
markdown 6y ago
> TikTok is controllable by the CCP Are we, years after the Snowden revelations, still pretending that USA is any better? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_security_letter https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_security_letter
- xvector 6y ago
  I cannot believe people are downvoting you. The NSA and associated gag orders have made a joke of our right to privacy. FISA courts are a dog and pony show, only 12 out of every 34k warrants are denied.
- warninglights 6y ago
  All these supposed security threats are projection by US. To the point of comedy. I suspect Tiktok is bending backwards to accomodate Trump, rehosting data in Oracle. Fellow citizens you should be more afraid Trump monitoring you than CCP. If he gets reelected and you didn't vote for him, that is world Im scared of
sandworm101 6y ago
>> The next global conflict will likely be.. Lol. The next conflict has been upon us for a while. Trade sanctions. Embargoes. Proxy wars. Information campaigns. We cannot see the forest through the trees.
GuB-42 6y ago
You don't have to believe, national security is an official reason. https://www.military.com/daily-news/2019/12/30/army-follows-pentagon-guidance-bans-chinese-owned-tiktok-app.html https://www.military.com/daily-news/2019/12/30/army-follows-... https://www.military.com/daily-news/2020/09/18/us-bans-wechat-tiktok-citing-privacy-national-security.html https://www.military.com/daily-news/2020/09/18/us-bans-wecha...
- arcticbull 6y ago
  National Security™ was invoked to justify the tariffs imposed a few years ago on Canadian aluminum imports into the United States. [1] Since the sole arbiter of what constitutes a national security matter is the executive branch, whether or not it represents a material threat to national security is very much up for debate, proclamations aside. [1] https://www.whitehouse.gov/presidential-actions/proclamation-adjusting-imports-aluminum-united-states-080620/ https://www.whitehouse.gov/presidential-actions/proclamation...
boomboomsubban 6y ago
>The next global conflict will likely be one between the east and the west, with control of information being advantageous to both sides in the conflict Your linked position is that this is basically an ideological war, and that China won't quit until it has destroyed "liberalism." So why are you advocating the destruction of a key aspect of liberalism, the right to the free spread of ideas? This reeks of classic red scare techniques. Those damn Chinese are more concerned with destroying our way of life than internal affairs, and we must abandon our values to stop the risk.
- mateus1 6y ago
  I guess I shouldn't be scared US citizens are so eager to drop fundamental rights for "freedom". But I am. HN is a forum of quite intelligent people and surprises me to see so many people see US as a bastion of freedom...
- 082349872349872 6y ago
  That reek made me quote the "ever seen a Commie drink a glass of water" and "precious bodily fluids" scenes from Dr. Strangelove on another TikTok thread, and now I can't even search for the comment, so that's definitely reminding me of red scare.
tehwebguy 6y ago
Not at all, it’s financial only. TikTok is the only non-US owned social media platform to make a dent here. Edit: Why did I think Instagram didn’t start in the US?
bmitc 6y ago
Can you point out in the article or describe what you feel is the actual, explicit issue? I read the article, and I didn’t catch any concrete description of why TikTok is dangerous aside from the typically general descriptions, or at a minimum, how TikTok is any different from Facebook or YouTube or Twitter Instagram or whatever else, all of which have essentially black box recommendation algorithms. The article never hones in on anything specific to TikTok or makes a claim. From what I can tell, the two potential issues are concern of data collection with what that feeds and then a concept of influence. The former feeds a learning algorithm that shows what people find entertaining, funny, interesting. Could this be weaponized? Potentially. My best guess how is that it simply shows what people in various regions like and dislike, providing food for propaganda and policies. So the app is just a vacuum that feeds some external process that may or may not feedback through the app. No doubt this very thing with Facebook’s data was weaponized in the 2016 U.S. election by Cambridge Analytica and other entities. The latter possibility is one of influence. However, I do not see how TikTok is unique in this. In a different timeline, Facebook or Twitter or a multitude of other sites could have easily been used to hijack the rally, so that example is weak. If anything, the example is damning since there is a large possibility that Trump’s war on TikTok is one of personal vendetta that has been hypernormalized in the context of actual concerns between the U.S. and China and general concerns of the influence of social media. Further, there is factual evidence of Facebook being weaponized by organized groups to start protests and riots and people being influenced by foreign efforts. From my stance, the question is why is just TikTok a concern? If it is a legitimate concern, which it probably is at least in theory, then these same concerns apply to other social networks. The other question is where does this all stop?
- xwolfi 6y ago
  I'm in China and I did stop using facebook because it felt like a stupid data sinkhole from an hostile power... I agree it's a bit paranoid to block Tik Tok, but maybe if these company found a business model that didn't require my name, age, graph of all my acquaitance and pictures of all of this, maybe that would be better for the worlds ? Maybe we SHOULD ban social media on the principle that the risk of abuse outweighs any advantage ?
hatenberg 6y ago
Or we could look at history and accepr that the US changes the rules whenever it is eclipsed or finds itself outdone at its own game. See Japan 1980s Nah, the ideology is manufactured - we were just fine doing business with them and we keep being just fine doing business with the Saudis or any number of ideologically 'opposed countries.
- Dahoon 6y ago
  Exactly. This is like when tax was put on foreign motorcycles to protect Harley Davidson because it clearly was an inferior product that could not live on customer demand alone against Japanese products. I own one of the products that came out of this debacle[1] which might be the reason I still remember this unlike most who seem to believe this is a new way to do things in the US. 1: https://bikez.com/motorcycles/kawasaki_kz_700-a1_1984.php https://bikez.com/motorcycles/kawasaki_kz_700-a1_1984.php
- hurrdurr2 6y ago
  Every couple of decades we need a new boogeyman to fight against. Right now it's China. Every one of their companies is "controlled by the CCP" hence a CCP stooge. Clearly we must destroy these companies by any means necessary, that or outright take them over.
FpUser 6y ago
Nice way of justifying slow conversion of the US to USSR/China/Watever
bamboozled 6y ago
A decision to block something like this should be made in a court of law with evidence given. If it needs to be expedited, then it the POTUS should expedite the case, but we can't have arbitrary decisions being made like this without evidence, or we're like the CCP?
xvector 6y ago
And this justifies compromising on our freedoms? Some populist utters the words “national security” and we decide to destroy the first amendment. That mindset is an affront to what it means to be American and it is much more of a threat to our country and the rights of our citizens than TikTok could ever be. See: the PATRIOT Act.
- mechnesium 6y ago
  Precisely. We should not censor platforms that enable effective free speech to occur. TikTok is the one place that you can post a political video that doesn’t get removed within seconds for “violating community standards.” It’s blatantly obvious that the American big tech companies such as Twitter, Facebook, and Google are propaganda arms of the US government that employ specialized algorithms to censor thought provoking content and further specific political agendas. A platform like TikTok is, by nature of its origin, resilient to that.
bigpumpkin 6y ago
If you follow the case, you'll see that the Commerce Department does invoke national security in the case. However, the ban violates the First Amendment of the Constitution because it is not narrowly tailored to address the national security concerns.
Natsu 6y ago
There's also the fact that the CCP has been known to do things like catfishing or otherwise trying to gather data about US servicemen and women in bulk. The information on TikTok probably isn't valuable, but we know how rich Facebook has gotten by building social graphs. The same is true of many social apps.
llboston 6y ago
All major internet companies in China, including ByteDance, have CCP branches [1]. CCP would be crazy not to use TikTok data. 1 https://www.jenniferzengblog.com/home/2020/8/5/bytedance-headquarters-has-a-ccp-branch- https://www.jenniferzengblog.com/home/2020/8/5/bytedance-hea... [edit] added source.
- bduerst 6y ago
  *Subsidiaries. Bytedance has TaoTiao inside China, which shares TaoTaio user information with the CCP, the same way that Apple has Apple Guizhou, which shares iCloud data with the CCP. Neither Bytedance, or it's TikTok subsidiary, exist inside China, so there's no reason to suspect data sharing with the CCP without evidence.
  - dannyw 6y ago
    You really think that stops China?
  - jjulius 6y ago
    >Neither Bytedance, or it's TikTok subsidiary, exist inside China... Please stop spreading FUD. > The spokesman says Mayer will continue to live in Los Angeles, but will "travel frequently to Bytedance’s headquarters in Beijing, as well as TikTok’s major offices in New York, London, Japan and India." There's no mention of any trips to the Cayman Islands, though. https://www.inputmag.com/culture/tiktok-weirdly-tries-to-suggest-its-not-a-chinese-company-as-it-brings-on-new-ceo/amp https://www.inputmag.com/culture/tiktok-weirdly-tries-to-sug...
  - llboston 6y ago
    You probably don't know how CCP branches work. All government branches, state owned companies, and major internet companies in China have CCP branches. Especially in the government and state own companies, the head of the CCP branch is actually the real person in charge.
    - bduerst 6y ago
blackoil 6y ago
By extension, you recommend Europe, India and most countries should block fb, twitter because this is too much power to let US have over them.
- braythwayt 6y ago
  Never mind Europe. As a Canadian, I question how we can permit Facebook to act as a massive conduit for official American propaganda like QAnon. If it's a national security issue for Tiktok to operate in the US, it's a national security issue for facebook to operate in Canada.
  - jacobush 6y ago
    It is. FB would never have been tolerated during the Cold War, not even in Europe. We let our guard down after the Cold War, and mostly for the better, but some corporations are exploiting the openness. Everyone on Earth needs to find a way to deal with these companies or continue being exploited.
justin66 6y ago
> China already blocks the western Internet, so they have an advantage by default. That might be an advantage to the Communist party but it's not an advantage to China as a nation, or its citizenry.
Zafira 6y ago
One reason for the United States being seen as a good place to do business is because it is consistent. You don't need to worry about being subjected to the whims of a strongman in order to do business in the US; there is supposed to be a firewall between the business of government and certain political pressures. Regardless of the risks and challenges increasingly posed by companies that have, at best, murky relationships with the folks in Zhongnanhai, attempting to circumvent this process is an outrageously offensive and damaging to the long-term ability for the US to be able to assert rule of law and democratic processes as the way forward. One can cynically argue it was always a flimsy patina anyway, but the behavior of, whatever this is at the moment, is disorganized, suffers from shifting reasoning, dubious personal intervention by POTUS, and lacks the due process that we demand of the US government. There has been not a single shred of meaningful evidence presented to the public that TikTok itself is engaged in active spying or intelligence gathering on the part of the Beijing. I would not be surprised if the federal government had evidence that Bytedance is using TikTok for nefarious reasons, but as the saga has dragged on it becomes increasingly unclear what evidence exists. First it had to divest; now it has a "strategic partnership" that's somehow still being sold as a divestiture? On what basis are we to trust the random proclamations of an executive branch that blatantly and unabashedly lies to the press and the public at-large even over trivial nonsense, declares all unfavorable news as "fake" and suffers endless information leaks from people who have repeatedly been burned by its mercurial cast of characters?
raxxorrax 6y ago
The best defense would be to open up the net even more, but you would need to convince the old ones crafting our policies... and some of the legacy media corporations.
avianlyric 6y ago
I don’t think the real issue is whether or not the US block TicTok or any other Chinese company. The issue is how they block these companies. The approach Trump is using is arbitrary, and he seems more interested in engaging in crony capitalism than actually protecting the US. This approach undermines the rule-of-law in the US, which alongside its democratic processes, is what US holds up as its reason for moral superiority in the world. If the executive and they rest of the US really cares about this issue, then put legislation through congress. Put those much vaulted democratic process to work, and don’t support executives that seek to undermine those processes.
Hokusai 6y ago
> Instead, I believe that it is a national security issue That or the president wants a Friendly social network to manage the news cycle of the election instead of a social network that is not so much influenced by him. Those who control the news has the power to change perceptions.
- jl2718 6y ago
  Okay, so where do you get your information?
  - 082349872349872 6y ago
    My recommendations for those with cycles to spare: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24614732 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24614732
tannhaeuser 6y ago
It's neither a privacy nor national security issue. It's the POTUS silencing per decree an alleged pro-Biden voice in upcoming elections, whereas alleged pro-Trump voices by other foreign nations on eg Facebook are welcome. It will become an issue of international free trade on the Internet with the US side as the dominant player standing to loose economically. Why would other foreign nations allow US companies to destroy their publishing and advertising industry when the US market isn't welcoming foreign competition?
CraigJPerry 6y ago
Surely Facebook’s a bigger issue than 60 second videos since any bad actor can target messaging at susceptibile users and no one will know. This just seems like yet another case of Republican double speak. Say one thing do a different thing that just coincidentally happens to grab power over others. Also, what is the method of using a 60 second video platform to share messaging with a crowd who will immediately scroll past anything heavy (or just plain stop using the app) to get to the next funny video? It seems a ultra low effectiveness medium for controlled messaging.
- dfischer 6y ago
  TikTok is the generation that is most malleable to propaganda in a way that can undermine an entire generation. TikTok also has history of recording telemetry that’s extremely alarming. Look into what is mined. Look into how algorithms get optimized to influence behavior. See a recent paper on this with using social media to shut down a power plant. Memetic warfare is real and it’s been going on in cyberspace for a while now. Every single bit of information is manipulation. Every social network is a memetic warfare piece and TikTok is a primary target. Lol at the downvoting. Bunch of brainwashed people here already.
  - jhardy54 6y ago
    > TikTok is the generation that is most malleable to propaganda in a way that can undermine an entire generation Citation needed. Come on.
    - dfischer 6y ago
      Every statement doesn’t need a citation. Come on. Propaganda is real. If you don’t think that all social networks are mechanisms to imprint minds you’re either idealist or compromised. Yawn to the downvotes. Keep them coming. Your naïveté is plain.
      - CraigJPerry 6y ago
        So why not focus on Facebook? Why not do something meaningful, anything, with a company which is actually beholden to us law? Seems like targetting the biggest bang for buck would be a good place to start and THEN move on to others, no?
mtgx 6y ago
It reminds me of the "war" between Facebook/Microsoft and "open Google". Facebook had access to Google's Gmail open API and could ask people to send invitations to the platform to all of their Gmail friends. Similarly, Microsoft had open access to GChat and wanted to implement it in Skype. Google couldn't do the same because Facebook and Microsoft had closed APIs. So it chose to close off its own APIs, too. It sucks for everyone when rivals abuse your openness.
eru 6y ago
How is the CCP ideologically opposed to the United States? Keep in mind that one is a political party, the other one is a country.
- gabaix 6y ago
  Both the US administration and the CCP represent political systems. These systems are different in several points, including how deciders are chosen and how disagreements are settled.
  - jl2718 6y ago
    That doesn’t explain anything. What do they want? Why? Who has it now? How do they plan to get it? When and where? Sometimes I think the information campaign begins as forced education in senseless abstractions, which do nothing but confuse children into adulthood.
bawolff 6y ago
The part i dont get - zoom also has ties to China. Everyone focuses on tiktok which is kids making stupid videos, but zoom which almost certainly has massive amounts of highly sensitive info going through it, seems to raise very few eye brows comparatively.
- tommymachine 6y ago
  When you look at the amount of data one would have to sift through to find anything valuable, it’s a pretty big difference between TikTok & Zoom. Put simply, TikTok saves & distributes short video content. Zoom streams long video chats. The potential for gathering psychological data would be far higher with TikTok, and the barrier for entry far lower.
  - bawolff 6y ago
    We have computers that can automatically make transcripts. I'm sure china knows how grep works. Are you seriously suggesting that its easier to gather psychological data from short videos than it would be from therapy sessions held over zoom? Why would that even be more valuable to china than the traditional industry espinoge that would be trivial to extract over zoom. Hell, why would you expect that short videos made for the express purpose of trying to gain popularity would be more telling about someone's personality than their candid work interactions?
    - tommymachine 6y ago
      One can’t just grep and understand millions of conversations instantly.
- jpkeisala 6y ago
  Zoom never bruise Trumps eco.
  - jacobush 6y ago
    Yeah, funny how you are the only one to mention this. People talk about legalities. Trump doesn't care about legalities. He was pranked and wants to retaliate.
powerapple 6y ago
Of course it is a national security issue. CIA knows the best how to use the internet and trains others to do so. It is risky to have a platform you don't control in your home. People thinking it is privacy issue or pure business idea don't really know what's going on in this world. Look around for all the protests almost all of them organized online. Of course, kids pissing off Trump on TikTok made it easier for him to make the decision.
secretsatan 6y ago
I contend that TikTok was specifically targetted because the Orange one's ego was hurt because of a prank organised on the platform. Defenders of the trumpalump wanabee emperor are looking for ways to make this rational.
DarthGhandi 6y ago
> the CCP which is ideologically opposed to the United States Really? They seem quite fine with the states last I looked, you 100% sure that statement shouldn't be the other way around? Does the CCP demand everyone on Earth follow their communist ideals? Does the CCP send drones to go bomb weddings and children in far away countries they really have nothing to do with? Honestly they are a refreshing superpower and do far less horrendous shit to the rest of the world if you ask me. Sorry about your failing broken nation but someone needs to say it. Even the EU is over your constant need for war with Iran/China/$NEXTBADGUY and not playing ball, perhaps get a bigger toupee for the president and stop building an entire economy on perpetual warfare next time?
publicola1990 6y ago
Also TikTok hasn't violated US laws, then where is the case for banning them? Banning something that is perfectly legal seems absurd to do in our legal system. Also US government hasn't made a specific claim of any imminent security threat posed by TikTok. From a data security point of view the expert opinion seems to be that there isn't a clear cut case for singling out and banning tiktok. The ban is therefore undoubtedly a political move, and that is problematic. Things should not be banned on political whims by using executive or administrative measures. Even legislative has limits, even if Congress passes a legislation banning TikTok, that legislation is likely to be struck down by the court is my guess. Ultimately banning TikTok is not a tenable democratic solution to whatever real or perceived problems it is causing. Some of the commenters here seems to want the democratic US government to suddenly grow authoritarian powers.
- lowiqengineer 6y ago
  > Some of the commenters here seems to want the democratic US government to suddenly grow authoritarian powers. Ironically, I’d bet most of them probably identify as “libertarian”
  - abfan1127 6y ago
    ummm... what do you have for that basis? or are your quotes there for sarcasm...
  - entropea 6y ago
    2020 society is based on reactions without ideological consistency, like social media has trained us to.
- abc-xyz 6y ago
  Tit for tat reciprocity is the basis for most modern trade relations.
- cooljacob204 6y ago
  TikTok is not ran or based in the US. I don't get why you think they would be protected under US laws like a US based corporation. Congress and Executive branch can easily ban foreign companies from operating in the US and there is a long history of them doing so.
stevefan1999 6y ago
> The next global conflict will likely be one between the east and the west Orientalism and westernism
- 082349872349872 6y ago
  occidentalism, surely.
pqhwan 6y ago
It’s hard to argue that an eye-for-an-eye response is unjustified, sure. But it’s easy to see that, in a conflict, direct, equivalent retaliation is often the least strategic response. It signals desperation (which reveals weakness), and also legitimizes your opponent’s actions. It hurts your political capital (allies lose confidence in you), which is a vital tool (e.g. coordinated international show of political/trade force). Given the current US leadership, though, it’s not surprising they’d press any button they can reach.
- read_if_gay_ 6y ago
  What would you propose?
  - pqhwan 6y ago
    That would be above my paygrade, but you’d start by asking what cards the US holds on the world stage: the dollar, oil, technology (for now anyways).
    - read_if_gay_ 6y ago
      But that’s also eye for an eye, just of a different kind, is it not?
      - pqhwan 6y ago
        Well, I’m no pacifist. I’m saying that the latest US move will leave the world with two one-eyed superpowers still in conflict, still on equal footing, when we could’ve taken an arm or a leg.
cjfd 6y ago
'both sides in the conflict' presumably refers to countries. However, countries are not persons and persons are not countries. For actual persons it is beneficial to have information from both sides. Countries do not necessarily act in the interest of their citizens. A bit more scepticism regarding politicians good intentions is in order. The actual intention of the president of the US is to get reelected which explains his actions regarding any subject much more than the interest of citizens. People saying that Trump is irrational or stupid are missing this point completely. Why is Trump downplaying corona? Because his constituency is more likely to be science-sceptical than the general public and also because his constituency has been fed the 'make America great again' slogan so he has to sound positive and in control. Why is Trump hard on China? Because his constituency is more likely to lose their job to China than people not in his constituency. Politics is a power game before anything else and people would be wise to realize this.
deepstack 6y ago
Yes I have said so many times about WeChat to friends in USA. I CCP polices are terrible, however there are many in us tech wish they can do what CCP is doing with their apps.
veer-chah 6y ago
In free world, let the Govt of country spell out the security/propaganda issues with this app,but leave the choice to their citizens.
rbg246 6y ago
I do agree with a number of your points but what about mobile phones built by Chinese companies, what about all apps developed in China. How do you know what is and isn't CCP controlled? Just seems a slippery slope, or how do you know if an American app isn't funnelling data to CCP. The problem is mobiles open us to such attacks.
FooBarWidget 6y ago
Inside China, Bytedance's founder is known as pro-US. They've publicly made pro-US statements. Furthermore, the CCP has 90+ million members. With the number of employees that Bytedance has in China, you'd expect — by proportion — that they have thousands of employees that are CCP members. But it's just a couple of hundred. Bytedance's founder has made an effort to make this a global company, not a Chinese company, not a "CCP/state company". He believes in internationalism. And yet here we are: Mike Pompeo calling him a "mouthpiece of the CCP", and many people on Hacker News believing that Tiktok is a big conspiracy to hack the United States. All without a fair investigation into who Bytedance is, how much of these fears are actually founded, or whether there are more productive solutions than kicking out all things Chinese. The irony. Can you imagine what all this does to his pro-US stance, or what it does to all the pro-US people in China for that matter? Treating China as an enemy is a self-fulfilling prophecy.
- abc-xyz 6y ago
  > ByteDance has had a party committee since 2017 and is headed by CCP secretary and company editor-in-chief Zhang Fuping (張輔評), reported Human Rights Watch. Members of the committee hold regular gatherings at which they study speeches by Chinese Chairman Xi Jinping (習近平) and "pledge to follow the party in technological innovation." > In addition, ByteDance on April 25, 2019, signed a strategic cooperation agreement with the Ministry of Public Security's Press and Publicity Bureau (公安部新聞宣傳局) in Beijing. The agreement was billed as "aiming to give full play to the professional technology and platform advantages of Toutiao and Tiktok in big data analysis," strengthen the creation and production of "public security new media works," boost "network influence and online discourse power," and enhance "public security propaganda, guidance, influence, and credibility," among other aspects. https://www.taiwannews.com.tw/en/news/3982027 https://www.taiwannews.com.tw/en/news/3982027
  - FooBarWidget 6y ago
    Both of those issues are besides the point I make. Your article is also treating Tiktok and Douyin as if they're the same thing. They aren't, they are separate networks and datasets.
jl2718 6y ago
If you’re willing to admit that media and information can be used against yourself and your nation, you’ve made it to the first stage of your awakening. Great; now look within yourself.
gbraad 6y ago
> I believe that it is a national security issue because TikTok is controllable by the CCP is that confirmed or is that a believe you have ?
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
LeifCarrotson 6y ago
In that post, Ben writes: > It feels like we're talking past each other. I completely agree! I do feel like you and I and Ben (even after reading Ben's post) are still talking past each other. I am completely lost at the point where you say "A and B, therefore C, the US should ban TikTok." What is it about the combination of success and external control that means TikTok should be banned? Ben wrote: > This [video-based content-rich algorithmically-controlled feed] both explains why TikTok succeeds, and why it is an app the United States ought to be concerned about. I think that's a jump to conclusions that is illogical it does not follow from the priors. You, Ben, and other advocates of a ban on TikTok try really hard to explain and prove Fact A, that TikTok is a uniquely successful mobile-first semi-social network/information sharing platform. You also describe Fact B, that ByteDance is vulnerable to CCP influence which is ideologically opposed to the US. You do well on both counts, I agree completely with these facts, they're pretty indisputable. I would probably use "different from" instead of "opposed" to frame the philosophical differences in a less antagonistic way, but still, I'm with you on these facts. http://english.www.gov.cn/ http://english.www.gov.cn/ is another platform that's controlled exclusively by the Chinese government. But no one's proposing a book-burning, that the US firewall all information controlled by the CCP or those with ideological differences. Twitter is a popular information-sharing social platform, and there are Chinese actors on it, but this argument isn't extended to suggest that it be banned, either. But somehow, a platform that does both must not be allowed to exist? I don't get it.
- ardy42 6y ago
  > Twitter is a popular information-sharing social platform, and there are Chinese actors on it, but this argument isn't extended to suggest that it be banned, either. But somehow, a platform that does both must not be allowed to exist? I don't get it. Is it that hard to understand? Twitter and Facebook will at least try to make a genuine effort to root out and ban "coordinated inauthentic activity" by the Chinese government (and if they don't they could probably be compelled to do so): https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2020/sep/23/facebook-removes-fake-accounts-with-links-to-china-and-philippines https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2020/sep/23/facebook-.... A Chinese-owned TikTok won't: either it won't do it at all, or it will make a fake/bad-faith effort. Similarly, Twitter and Facebook may gather a lot of non-public user data, but there's pretty much no chance that any of that data will be willingly handed over to Chinese intelligence. It should be noted that Chinese intelligence is not exclusively after top secret government data: they're also interested in many kinds of mundane information that you might be surprised by that can be leveraged to get it: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/11/us/politics/trump-china-trade.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/11/us/politics/trump-china-t....
Angeo34 6y ago
I can only repeat myself. If the US is spying on Germany it's fine but if China is spying on the US it's bad. Makes sense.
basch 6y ago
techcrunch had some food for thought on the topic as well, not just standard reuters/ap repost spam. https://techcrunch.com/2020/09/20/gangster-capitalism-and-the-american-theft-of-chinese-innovation/ https://techcrunch.com/2020/09/20/gangster-capitalism-and-th...

schoolornot 6y ago

What exactly is the national security risk with TikTok?

mike503 6y ago
They’ll know all the social media patterns and likes of 14 year olds!
- bravo22 6y ago
  Or they can push narratives and stories to manipulate their audience? If the main search engine in a country was controlled by a foreign entity that would be cause for concern.
  - YarickR2 6y ago
    Like.. IDK...Google ?
    - bravo22 6y ago
      Exactly.
- triceratops 6y ago
  14 year olds grow up eventually and occupy important positions in society - judges, lawmakers, businesspeople and the like.
- dapids 6y ago
  And that is somehow acceptable?
  - dapids 6y ago
    thanks for the downvotes
- TheCuckedKing 6y ago
  Our pathetic ignorance is the reason the party that you and I will vote for will never win in America again in our lifetimes. We are cuck.
- sheeshkebab 6y ago
  An incident in 2020 where TikTok users apparently tanked some Trump campaign rally probably is a bit more practical preview what controlling recommendations and likes could let CCP do (eventually... if they were not involved this time around) https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/21/style/tiktok-trump-rally-tulsa.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/21/style/tiktok-trump-rally-...
  - rgbrenner 6y ago
    I went to an Obama rally when he was running and just showed up.. no tickets. Got all the way to the front of the crowd. Another option is to charge a nominal fee for a ticket. Trump's problem was that he wanted to hand out free tickets over the internet. Just don't do that.. problem solved. If that's the limit of TikTok's power.. then I think we're going to be ok.
slimsag 6y ago
Information warfare - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Information_warfare#Books https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Information_warfare#Books
- 082349872349872 6y ago
  Given that the oldest item on that list is 1993, I'm going to say they were all written by newbies. (my current bibliography only goes back to 1919, but a historical survey in a mid-century work came up with biblical examples of information warfare.)
jtdev 6y ago
Mass behavioral data exfiltration... mass biometric data exfiltration (faces)... censorship of those critical of CCP within the U.S... psychological persuasion of the masses... etc., etc.
libraryatnight 6y ago
Propaganda. You don't have to bother making troll farm accounts to spread misinformation and sow doubt when you control the platform and can create and drip content you want into peoples feeds, and you know what they like, you're already serving them an addictive stream of content based on their behaviors.
- UncleMeat 6y ago
  What makes TikTok different than literally any other website in this manner?
  - guywhocodes 6y ago
    None really, the next Chinese successful "social media" platform will face the same treatment
  - mtrpcic 6y ago
    ...being controlled by the CCP is what makes it different. All of these sites/apps have the ability to shove propaganda in the faces of millions of people, only one of them is run by a government.
    - FpUser 6y ago
      And what prohibits any three letter agency hiring some intermediary and do the same thing on Facebook for example?
      - pessimizer 6y ago
        > hiring some intermediaries There's absolutely no need. Facebook cooperates with three-letter agencies, and we expect them to.
        FpUser 6y ago
        You seriously think that if one of those decided to influence election (for a greater good of course) you would expect direct cooperation of FB in the matter? I'd think that the guilty party should be prosecuted for doing things like that.
_jahh 6y ago
child forces parent to install tiktok so they can watch memes, parent works anywhere sensitive TT pwns that phone
crumbshot 6y ago
I reckon it was probably just this: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/21/style/tiktok-trump-rally-tulsa.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/21/style/tiktok-trump-rally-...
- IfOnlyYouKnew 6y ago
  You may be right (and the publicity alone would be sufficcient for this thin-skinned lunatic), but... doesn't that story rest on somewhat tenuous logic? I. e. they claim to have reserved far more tickets than capacity would allow to attend. But that seems to demonstrate that tickets weren't limited by capacity. So how did their action prevent other people from getting tickets?
- rvz 6y ago
  > probably Please. Perhaps you didn't realise that they already launched an investigation before the Tulsa rally and also against FaceApp for the same reason: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-50639443 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-50639443 EDIT: Downvoters: So the concerns, investigation requests of both TikTok and FaceApp didn't occur in 2019 and for the former, the investigations didn't happen before the Tulsa rally? Are you sure? [0] [1] [0] https://www.cotton.senate.gov/?p=press_release&id=1239 https://www.cotton.senate.gov/?p=press_release&id=1239 [1] https://uk.reuters.com/article/us-tiktok-cfius-exclusive/exclusive-u-s-opens-national-security-investigation-into-tiktok-sources-idUKKBN1XB4IL https://uk.reuters.com/article/us-tiktok-cfius-exclusive/exc...
- rgbrenner 6y ago
  Yes, I've said it before. Trump will attack you for writing an mean article about him. But somehow people believe that Trump leaving a rally visibly upset because of actions by TikTok's users and him attacking TikTok literally 3 weeks later are unrelated events. They're definitely related. It's literally an action->response... and it fits Trumps modus operandi perfectly... he's done it numerous times.
LK83 6y ago
I think they are just angry that TikTok users trolled the Trump Tulsa Rally.
ekianjo 6y ago
What exactly is the risk of a single channel of information controlled by one of the worst governments on Earth, massively used by younger people who are in the age of voting? Are you sure you need an explanation?
- xvector 6y ago
  > a single channel of information You mean one channel out of hundreds? > controlled by one of the worst governments on Earth, As opposed to our current channels of information, that are controlled by billionaires that also couldn’t care less about Americans?
gpm 6y ago
Blackmail material gathered from it. Various forms of location data gathered from it, e.g. the location of any member of the military that uses it. Launching pad for zero days if China feels the need to root someones (or many someones) phones. Massive social graph, massive amounts of behavioral data. Useful, for doing things like identifying who was likely recruited by a spy agency or identifying potential assets that can be turned. Potential to pressure speech that China prefers, e.g. by rewarding popular creators with money only if they don't say things China likes, or by decreasing the reach of people who say things China dislikes. Potential for foreign control of the general trends of content people see. E.g. tweaking the algorithm so "it just happens" to suppress the potential to suppress topics china would prefer we didn't talk about (e.g. their "re-education" camps) or to boost topics they would prefer we did (likely things like political infighting). Most of these involve various levels of overtness. Many of them it probably only makes sense to start doing once you've captured the market (right now it's more important to onboard more people than to push a message). But I would view all of them as real threats if I was the US government.

zmmmmm 6y ago

> Instead, I believe that it is a national security issue Are you uncomfortable adopting that belief with literally no concrete evidence that anything of the sort is actually occurring? I don't know how you reconcile rule of law with such drastic interventions in the rights of companies without evidence of wrongdoing. If anything you can come up with in your most paranoid fantasies can be the basis of shutting down a company, pretty much anything can be done to anyone on the basis of anything, no?

oh_sigh 6y ago
National security is generally best when it is proactive, not reactive. If you think the CCP having this data could be a problem, you can't wait until they collect it all and use it in order to stop them. There is a reason laws like GDPR prevent even the mere collection of data, and don't wait until Google does something wrong with the data in order to stop them.
revnode 6y ago
> shutting down a company It's not a company. It's a division of a foreign government. That was the point being made. If it was an independent company, none of this would be happening.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- judge2020 6y ago
  https://www.bytedance.com/en/#corporate-structure https://www.bytedance.com/en/#corporate-structure ByteDance Ltd. (Cayman) -> TikTok Ltd. (Cayman) -> TikTok LLC. (US) Legally it is indeed a company and not controlled by the CCP, but exactly how much of its US operations are conducted and directed by non-US citizens on non-US soil is unknown.
  - jjulius 6y ago
    This post is going to be similar to my other two comments in this thread. First, it being incorporated in the Caymans is a technicality. ByteDance's headquarters are in Beijing[1] and they don't speak of a Cayman Islands office. In addition... > As with many Chinese companies, the company has an internal Chinese Communist Party committee serving the party members among the employees, with vice president Zhang Fuping serving as its Party Committee Secretary. It also has a strategic partnership with the Ministry of Public Security for the ministry's public relations efforts, and joint ventures with a state-run publisher in Beijing and media firm in Shanghai. ... It has garnered public attention over allegations that it worked with the Chinese Communist Party to censor and surveil content pertaining to Xinjiang re-education camps and other topics the Party deemed controversial. [2] [1] https://www.inputmag.com/culture/tiktok-weirdly-tries-to-suggest-its-not-a-chinese-company-as-it-brings-on-new-ceo/amp https://www.inputmag.com/culture/tiktok-weirdly-tries-to-sug... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ByteDance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ByteDance

th33ngineer 6y ago

Why would TikTok agree to a preliminary American takeover and transfer of all assets to American entities if they are taking directives from the CCP? If this were true I would expect them to fight tooth and nail against a deal with the likes of Oracle and Wal-Mart rather than champion it as they have been doing.

Aperocky 6y ago

All national security issues are inherently privacy issues. It's about how much you're willing to (or forced to) give up in the name of national security.

markdown 6y ago

> TikTok is controllable by the CCP Are we, years after the Snowden revelations, still pretending that USA is any better? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_security_letter https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_security_letter

xvector 6y ago
I cannot believe people are downvoting you. The NSA and associated gag orders have made a joke of our right to privacy. FISA courts are a dog and pony show, only 12 out of every 34k warrants are denied.
warninglights 6y ago
All these supposed security threats are projection by US. To the point of comedy. I suspect Tiktok is bending backwards to accomodate Trump, rehosting data in Oracle. Fellow citizens you should be more afraid Trump monitoring you than CCP. If he gets reelected and you didn't vote for him, that is world Im scared of

sandworm101 6y ago

>> The next global conflict will likely be.. Lol. The next conflict has been upon us for a while. Trade sanctions. Embargoes. Proxy wars. Information campaigns. We cannot see the forest through the trees.

GuB-42 6y ago

You don't have to believe, national security is an official reason. https://www.military.com/daily-news/2019/12/30/army-follows-pentagon-guidance-bans-chinese-owned-tiktok-app.html https://www.military.com/daily-news/2019/12/30/army-follows-... https://www.military.com/daily-news/2020/09/18/us-bans-wechat-tiktok-citing-privacy-national-security.html https://www.military.com/daily-news/2020/09/18/us-bans-wecha...

arcticbull 6y ago
National Security™ was invoked to justify the tariffs imposed a few years ago on Canadian aluminum imports into the United States. [1] Since the sole arbiter of what constitutes a national security matter is the executive branch, whether or not it represents a material threat to national security is very much up for debate, proclamations aside. [1] https://www.whitehouse.gov/presidential-actions/proclamation-adjusting-imports-aluminum-united-states-080620/ https://www.whitehouse.gov/presidential-actions/proclamation...

boomboomsubban 6y ago

>The next global conflict will likely be one between the east and the west, with control of information being advantageous to both sides in the conflict Your linked position is that this is basically an ideological war, and that China won't quit until it has destroyed "liberalism." So why are you advocating the destruction of a key aspect of liberalism, the right to the free spread of ideas? This reeks of classic red scare techniques. Those damn Chinese are more concerned with destroying our way of life than internal affairs, and we must abandon our values to stop the risk.

mateus1 6y ago
I guess I shouldn't be scared US citizens are so eager to drop fundamental rights for "freedom". But I am. HN is a forum of quite intelligent people and surprises me to see so many people see US as a bastion of freedom...
082349872349872 6y ago
That reek made me quote the "ever seen a Commie drink a glass of water" and "precious bodily fluids" scenes from Dr. Strangelove on another TikTok thread, and now I can't even search for the comment, so that's definitely reminding me of red scare.

tehwebguy 6y ago

Not at all, it’s financial only. TikTok is the only non-US owned social media platform to make a dent here. Edit: Why did I think Instagram didn’t start in the US?

bmitc 6y ago

Can you point out in the article or describe what you feel is the actual, explicit issue? I read the article, and I didn’t catch any concrete description of why TikTok is dangerous aside from the typically general descriptions, or at a minimum, how TikTok is any different from Facebook or YouTube or Twitter Instagram or whatever else, all of which have essentially black box recommendation algorithms. The article never hones in on anything specific to TikTok or makes a claim. From what I can tell, the two potential issues are concern of data collection with what that feeds and then a concept of influence. The former feeds a learning algorithm that shows what people find entertaining, funny, interesting. Could this be weaponized? Potentially. My best guess how is that it simply shows what people in various regions like and dislike, providing food for propaganda and policies. So the app is just a vacuum that feeds some external process that may or may not feedback through the app. No doubt this very thing with Facebook’s data was weaponized in the 2016 U.S. election by Cambridge Analytica and other entities. The latter possibility is one of influence. However, I do not see how TikTok is unique in this. In a different timeline, Facebook or Twitter or a multitude of other sites could have easily been used to hijack the rally, so that example is weak. If anything, the example is damning since there is a large possibility that Trump’s war on TikTok is one of personal vendetta that has been hypernormalized in the context of actual concerns between the U.S. and China and general concerns of the influence of social media. Further, there is factual evidence of Facebook being weaponized by organized groups to start protests and riots and people being influenced by foreign efforts. From my stance, the question is why is just TikTok a concern? If it is a legitimate concern, which it probably is at least in theory, then these same concerns apply to other social networks. The other question is where does this all stop?

xwolfi 6y ago
I'm in China and I did stop using facebook because it felt like a stupid data sinkhole from an hostile power... I agree it's a bit paranoid to block Tik Tok, but maybe if these company found a business model that didn't require my name, age, graph of all my acquaitance and pictures of all of this, maybe that would be better for the worlds ? Maybe we SHOULD ban social media on the principle that the risk of abuse outweighs any advantage ?

hatenberg 6y ago

Or we could look at history and accepr that the US changes the rules whenever it is eclipsed or finds itself outdone at its own game. See Japan 1980s Nah, the ideology is manufactured - we were just fine doing business with them and we keep being just fine doing business with the Saudis or any number of ideologically 'opposed countries.

Dahoon 6y ago
Exactly. This is like when tax was put on foreign motorcycles to protect Harley Davidson because it clearly was an inferior product that could not live on customer demand alone against Japanese products. I own one of the products that came out of this debacle[1] which might be the reason I still remember this unlike most who seem to believe this is a new way to do things in the US. 1: https://bikez.com/motorcycles/kawasaki_kz_700-a1_1984.php https://bikez.com/motorcycles/kawasaki_kz_700-a1_1984.php
hurrdurr2 6y ago
Every couple of decades we need a new boogeyman to fight against. Right now it's China. Every one of their companies is "controlled by the CCP" hence a CCP stooge. Clearly we must destroy these companies by any means necessary, that or outright take them over.

FpUser 6y ago

Nice way of justifying slow conversion of the US to USSR/China/Watever

bamboozled 6y ago

A decision to block something like this should be made in a court of law with evidence given. If it needs to be expedited, then it the POTUS should expedite the case, but we can't have arbitrary decisions being made like this without evidence, or we're like the CCP?

xvector 6y ago

And this justifies compromising on our freedoms? Some populist utters the words “national security” and we decide to destroy the first amendment. That mindset is an affront to what it means to be American and it is much more of a threat to our country and the rights of our citizens than TikTok could ever be. See: the PATRIOT Act.

mechnesium 6y ago
Precisely. We should not censor platforms that enable effective free speech to occur. TikTok is the one place that you can post a political video that doesn’t get removed within seconds for “violating community standards.” It’s blatantly obvious that the American big tech companies such as Twitter, Facebook, and Google are propaganda arms of the US government that employ specialized algorithms to censor thought provoking content and further specific political agendas. A platform like TikTok is, by nature of its origin, resilient to that.

bigpumpkin 6y ago

If you follow the case, you'll see that the Commerce Department does invoke national security in the case. However, the ban violates the First Amendment of the Constitution because it is not narrowly tailored to address the national security concerns.

Natsu 6y ago

There's also the fact that the CCP has been known to do things like catfishing or otherwise trying to gather data about US servicemen and women in bulk. The information on TikTok probably isn't valuable, but we know how rich Facebook has gotten by building social graphs. The same is true of many social apps.

llboston 6y ago

All major internet companies in China, including ByteDance, have CCP branches [1]. CCP would be crazy not to use TikTok data. 1 https://www.jenniferzengblog.com/home/2020/8/5/bytedance-headquarters-has-a-ccp-branch- https://www.jenniferzengblog.com/home/2020/8/5/bytedance-hea... [edit] added source.

bduerst 6y ago
*Subsidiaries. Bytedance has TaoTiao inside China, which shares TaoTaio user information with the CCP, the same way that Apple has Apple Guizhou, which shares iCloud data with the CCP. Neither Bytedance, or it's TikTok subsidiary, exist inside China, so there's no reason to suspect data sharing with the CCP without evidence.
- dannyw 6y ago
  You really think that stops China?
- jjulius 6y ago
  >Neither Bytedance, or it's TikTok subsidiary, exist inside China... Please stop spreading FUD. > The spokesman says Mayer will continue to live in Los Angeles, but will "travel frequently to Bytedance’s headquarters in Beijing, as well as TikTok’s major offices in New York, London, Japan and India." There's no mention of any trips to the Cayman Islands, though. https://www.inputmag.com/culture/tiktok-weirdly-tries-to-suggest-its-not-a-chinese-company-as-it-brings-on-new-ceo/amp https://www.inputmag.com/culture/tiktok-weirdly-tries-to-sug...
- llboston 6y ago
  You probably don't know how CCP branches work. All government branches, state owned companies, and major internet companies in China have CCP branches. Especially in the government and state own companies, the head of the CCP branch is actually the real person in charge.
  - bduerst 6y ago

blackoil 6y ago

By extension, you recommend Europe, India and most countries should block fb, twitter because this is too much power to let US have over them.

braythwayt 6y ago
Never mind Europe. As a Canadian, I question how we can permit Facebook to act as a massive conduit for official American propaganda like QAnon. If it's a national security issue for Tiktok to operate in the US, it's a national security issue for facebook to operate in Canada.
- jacobush 6y ago
  It is. FB would never have been tolerated during the Cold War, not even in Europe. We let our guard down after the Cold War, and mostly for the better, but some corporations are exploiting the openness. Everyone on Earth needs to find a way to deal with these companies or continue being exploited.

justin66 6y ago

> China already blocks the western Internet, so they have an advantage by default. That might be an advantage to the Communist party but it's not an advantage to China as a nation, or its citizenry.

Zafira 6y ago

One reason for the United States being seen as a good place to do business is because it is consistent. You don't need to worry about being subjected to the whims of a strongman in order to do business in the US; there is supposed to be a firewall between the business of government and certain political pressures. Regardless of the risks and challenges increasingly posed by companies that have, at best, murky relationships with the folks in Zhongnanhai, attempting to circumvent this process is an outrageously offensive and damaging to the long-term ability for the US to be able to assert rule of law and democratic processes as the way forward. One can cynically argue it was always a flimsy patina anyway, but the behavior of, whatever this is at the moment, is disorganized, suffers from shifting reasoning, dubious personal intervention by POTUS, and lacks the due process that we demand of the US government. There has been not a single shred of meaningful evidence presented to the public that TikTok itself is engaged in active spying or intelligence gathering on the part of the Beijing. I would not be surprised if the federal government had evidence that Bytedance is using TikTok for nefarious reasons, but as the saga has dragged on it becomes increasingly unclear what evidence exists. First it had to divest; now it has a "strategic partnership" that's somehow still being sold as a divestiture? On what basis are we to trust the random proclamations of an executive branch that blatantly and unabashedly lies to the press and the public at-large even over trivial nonsense, declares all unfavorable news as "fake" and suffers endless information leaks from people who have repeatedly been burned by its mercurial cast of characters?

raxxorrax 6y ago

The best defense would be to open up the net even more, but you would need to convince the old ones crafting our policies... and some of the legacy media corporations.

avianlyric 6y ago

I don’t think the real issue is whether or not the US block TicTok or any other Chinese company. The issue is how they block these companies. The approach Trump is using is arbitrary, and he seems more interested in engaging in crony capitalism than actually protecting the US. This approach undermines the rule-of-law in the US, which alongside its democratic processes, is what US holds up as its reason for moral superiority in the world. If the executive and they rest of the US really cares about this issue, then put legislation through congress. Put those much vaulted democratic process to work, and don’t support executives that seek to undermine those processes.

Hokusai 6y ago

> Instead, I believe that it is a national security issue That or the president wants a Friendly social network to manage the news cycle of the election instead of a social network that is not so much influenced by him. Those who control the news has the power to change perceptions.

jl2718 6y ago
Okay, so where do you get your information?
- 082349872349872 6y ago
  My recommendations for those with cycles to spare: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24614732 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24614732

tannhaeuser 6y ago

It's neither a privacy nor national security issue. It's the POTUS silencing per decree an alleged pro-Biden voice in upcoming elections, whereas alleged pro-Trump voices by other foreign nations on eg Facebook are welcome. It will become an issue of international free trade on the Internet with the US side as the dominant player standing to loose economically. Why would other foreign nations allow US companies to destroy their publishing and advertising industry when the US market isn't welcoming foreign competition?

CraigJPerry 6y ago

Surely Facebook’s a bigger issue than 60 second videos since any bad actor can target messaging at susceptibile users and no one will know. This just seems like yet another case of Republican double speak. Say one thing do a different thing that just coincidentally happens to grab power over others. Also, what is the method of using a 60 second video platform to share messaging with a crowd who will immediately scroll past anything heavy (or just plain stop using the app) to get to the next funny video? It seems a ultra low effectiveness medium for controlled messaging.

dfischer 6y ago
TikTok is the generation that is most malleable to propaganda in a way that can undermine an entire generation. TikTok also has history of recording telemetry that’s extremely alarming. Look into what is mined. Look into how algorithms get optimized to influence behavior. See a recent paper on this with using social media to shut down a power plant. Memetic warfare is real and it’s been going on in cyberspace for a while now. Every single bit of information is manipulation. Every social network is a memetic warfare piece and TikTok is a primary target. Lol at the downvoting. Bunch of brainwashed people here already.
- jhardy54 6y ago
  > TikTok is the generation that is most malleable to propaganda in a way that can undermine an entire generation Citation needed. Come on.
  - dfischer 6y ago
    Every statement doesn’t need a citation. Come on. Propaganda is real. If you don’t think that all social networks are mechanisms to imprint minds you’re either idealist or compromised. Yawn to the downvotes. Keep them coming. Your naïveté is plain.
    - CraigJPerry 6y ago
      So why not focus on Facebook? Why not do something meaningful, anything, with a company which is actually beholden to us law? Seems like targetting the biggest bang for buck would be a good place to start and THEN move on to others, no?

mtgx 6y ago

It reminds me of the "war" between Facebook/Microsoft and "open Google". Facebook had access to Google's Gmail open API and could ask people to send invitations to the platform to all of their Gmail friends. Similarly, Microsoft had open access to GChat and wanted to implement it in Skype. Google couldn't do the same because Facebook and Microsoft had closed APIs. So it chose to close off its own APIs, too. It sucks for everyone when rivals abuse your openness.

eru 6y ago

How is the CCP ideologically opposed to the United States? Keep in mind that one is a political party, the other one is a country.

gabaix 6y ago
Both the US administration and the CCP represent political systems. These systems are different in several points, including how deciders are chosen and how disagreements are settled.
- jl2718 6y ago
  That doesn’t explain anything. What do they want? Why? Who has it now? How do they plan to get it? When and where? Sometimes I think the information campaign begins as forced education in senseless abstractions, which do nothing but confuse children into adulthood.

bawolff 6y ago

The part i dont get - zoom also has ties to China. Everyone focuses on tiktok which is kids making stupid videos, but zoom which almost certainly has massive amounts of highly sensitive info going through it, seems to raise very few eye brows comparatively.

tommymachine 6y ago
When you look at the amount of data one would have to sift through to find anything valuable, it’s a pretty big difference between TikTok & Zoom. Put simply, TikTok saves & distributes short video content. Zoom streams long video chats. The potential for gathering psychological data would be far higher with TikTok, and the barrier for entry far lower.
- bawolff 6y ago
  We have computers that can automatically make transcripts. I'm sure china knows how grep works. Are you seriously suggesting that its easier to gather psychological data from short videos than it would be from therapy sessions held over zoom? Why would that even be more valuable to china than the traditional industry espinoge that would be trivial to extract over zoom. Hell, why would you expect that short videos made for the express purpose of trying to gain popularity would be more telling about someone's personality than their candid work interactions?
  - tommymachine 6y ago
    One can’t just grep and understand millions of conversations instantly.
jpkeisala 6y ago
Zoom never bruise Trumps eco.
- jacobush 6y ago
  Yeah, funny how you are the only one to mention this. People talk about legalities. Trump doesn't care about legalities. He was pranked and wants to retaliate.

powerapple 6y ago

Of course it is a national security issue. CIA knows the best how to use the internet and trains others to do so. It is risky to have a platform you don't control in your home. People thinking it is privacy issue or pure business idea don't really know what's going on in this world. Look around for all the protests almost all of them organized online. Of course, kids pissing off Trump on TikTok made it easier for him to make the decision.

secretsatan 6y ago

I contend that TikTok was specifically targetted because the Orange one's ego was hurt because of a prank organised on the platform. Defenders of the trumpalump wanabee emperor are looking for ways to make this rational.

DarthGhandi 6y ago

> the CCP which is ideologically opposed to the United States Really? They seem quite fine with the states last I looked, you 100% sure that statement shouldn't be the other way around? Does the CCP demand everyone on Earth follow their communist ideals? Does the CCP send drones to go bomb weddings and children in far away countries they really have nothing to do with? Honestly they are a refreshing superpower and do far less horrendous shit to the rest of the world if you ask me. Sorry about your failing broken nation but someone needs to say it. Even the EU is over your constant need for war with Iran/China/$NEXTBADGUY and not playing ball, perhaps get a bigger toupee for the president and stop building an entire economy on perpetual warfare next time?

publicola1990 6y ago

Also TikTok hasn't violated US laws, then where is the case for banning them? Banning something that is perfectly legal seems absurd to do in our legal system. Also US government hasn't made a specific claim of any imminent security threat posed by TikTok. From a data security point of view the expert opinion seems to be that there isn't a clear cut case for singling out and banning tiktok. The ban is therefore undoubtedly a political move, and that is problematic. Things should not be banned on political whims by using executive or administrative measures. Even legislative has limits, even if Congress passes a legislation banning TikTok, that legislation is likely to be struck down by the court is my guess. Ultimately banning TikTok is not a tenable democratic solution to whatever real or perceived problems it is causing. Some of the commenters here seems to want the democratic US government to suddenly grow authoritarian powers.

lowiqengineer 6y ago
> Some of the commenters here seems to want the democratic US government to suddenly grow authoritarian powers. Ironically, I’d bet most of them probably identify as “libertarian”
- abfan1127 6y ago
  ummm... what do you have for that basis? or are your quotes there for sarcasm...
- entropea 6y ago
  2020 society is based on reactions without ideological consistency, like social media has trained us to.
abc-xyz 6y ago
Tit for tat reciprocity is the basis for most modern trade relations.
cooljacob204 6y ago
TikTok is not ran or based in the US. I don't get why you think they would be protected under US laws like a US based corporation. Congress and Executive branch can easily ban foreign companies from operating in the US and there is a long history of them doing so.

stevefan1999 6y ago

> The next global conflict will likely be one between the east and the west Orientalism and westernism

082349872349872 6y ago
occidentalism, surely.

pqhwan 6y ago

It’s hard to argue that an eye-for-an-eye response is unjustified, sure. But it’s easy to see that, in a conflict, direct, equivalent retaliation is often the least strategic response. It signals desperation (which reveals weakness), and also legitimizes your opponent’s actions. It hurts your political capital (allies lose confidence in you), which is a vital tool (e.g. coordinated international show of political/trade force). Given the current US leadership, though, it’s not surprising they’d press any button they can reach.

read_if_gay_ 6y ago
What would you propose?
- pqhwan 6y ago
  That would be above my paygrade, but you’d start by asking what cards the US holds on the world stage: the dollar, oil, technology (for now anyways).
  - read_if_gay_ 6y ago
    But that’s also eye for an eye, just of a different kind, is it not?
    - pqhwan 6y ago
      Well, I’m no pacifist. I’m saying that the latest US move will leave the world with two one-eyed superpowers still in conflict, still on equal footing, when we could’ve taken an arm or a leg.

cjfd 6y ago

'both sides in the conflict' presumably refers to countries. However, countries are not persons and persons are not countries. For actual persons it is beneficial to have information from both sides. Countries do not necessarily act in the interest of their citizens. A bit more scepticism regarding politicians good intentions is in order. The actual intention of the president of the US is to get reelected which explains his actions regarding any subject much more than the interest of citizens. People saying that Trump is irrational or stupid are missing this point completely. Why is Trump downplaying corona? Because his constituency is more likely to be science-sceptical than the general public and also because his constituency has been fed the 'make America great again' slogan so he has to sound positive and in control. Why is Trump hard on China? Because his constituency is more likely to lose their job to China than people not in his constituency. Politics is a power game before anything else and people would be wise to realize this.

deepstack 6y ago

Yes I have said so many times about WeChat to friends in USA. I CCP polices are terrible, however there are many in us tech wish they can do what CCP is doing with their apps.

veer-chah 6y ago

In free world, let the Govt of country spell out the security/propaganda issues with this app,but leave the choice to their citizens.

rbg246 6y ago

I do agree with a number of your points but what about mobile phones built by Chinese companies, what about all apps developed in China. How do you know what is and isn't CCP controlled? Just seems a slippery slope, or how do you know if an American app isn't funnelling data to CCP. The problem is mobiles open us to such attacks.

FooBarWidget 6y ago

Inside China, Bytedance's founder is known as pro-US. They've publicly made pro-US statements. Furthermore, the CCP has 90+ million members. With the number of employees that Bytedance has in China, you'd expect — by proportion — that they have thousands of employees that are CCP members. But it's just a couple of hundred. Bytedance's founder has made an effort to make this a global company, not a Chinese company, not a "CCP/state company". He believes in internationalism. And yet here we are: Mike Pompeo calling him a "mouthpiece of the CCP", and many people on Hacker News believing that Tiktok is a big conspiracy to hack the United States. All without a fair investigation into who Bytedance is, how much of these fears are actually founded, or whether there are more productive solutions than kicking out all things Chinese. The irony. Can you imagine what all this does to his pro-US stance, or what it does to all the pro-US people in China for that matter? Treating China as an enemy is a self-fulfilling prophecy.

abc-xyz 6y ago
> ByteDance has had a party committee since 2017 and is headed by CCP secretary and company editor-in-chief Zhang Fuping (張輔評), reported Human Rights Watch. Members of the committee hold regular gatherings at which they study speeches by Chinese Chairman Xi Jinping (習近平) and "pledge to follow the party in technological innovation." > In addition, ByteDance on April 25, 2019, signed a strategic cooperation agreement with the Ministry of Public Security's Press and Publicity Bureau (公安部新聞宣傳局) in Beijing. The agreement was billed as "aiming to give full play to the professional technology and platform advantages of Toutiao and Tiktok in big data analysis," strengthen the creation and production of "public security new media works," boost "network influence and online discourse power," and enhance "public security propaganda, guidance, influence, and credibility," among other aspects. https://www.taiwannews.com.tw/en/news/3982027 https://www.taiwannews.com.tw/en/news/3982027
- FooBarWidget 6y ago
  Both of those issues are besides the point I make. Your article is also treating Tiktok and Douyin as if they're the same thing. They aren't, they are separate networks and datasets.

jl2718 6y ago

If you’re willing to admit that media and information can be used against yourself and your nation, you’ve made it to the first stage of your awakening. Great; now look within yourself.

gbraad 6y ago

> I believe that it is a national security issue because TikTok is controllable by the CCP is that confirmed or is that a believe you have ?

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

LeifCarrotson 6y ago

In that post, Ben writes: > It feels like we're talking past each other. I completely agree! I do feel like you and I and Ben (even after reading Ben's post) are still talking past each other. I am completely lost at the point where you say "A and B, therefore C, the US should ban TikTok." What is it about the combination of success and external control that means TikTok should be banned? Ben wrote: > This [video-based content-rich algorithmically-controlled feed] both explains why TikTok succeeds, and why it is an app the United States ought to be concerned about. I think that's a jump to conclusions that is illogical it does not follow from the priors. You, Ben, and other advocates of a ban on TikTok try really hard to explain and prove Fact A, that TikTok is a uniquely successful mobile-first semi-social network/information sharing platform. You also describe Fact B, that ByteDance is vulnerable to CCP influence which is ideologically opposed to the US. You do well on both counts, I agree completely with these facts, they're pretty indisputable. I would probably use "different from" instead of "opposed" to frame the philosophical differences in a less antagonistic way, but still, I'm with you on these facts. http://english.www.gov.cn/ http://english.www.gov.cn/ is another platform that's controlled exclusively by the Chinese government. But no one's proposing a book-burning, that the US firewall all information controlled by the CCP or those with ideological differences. Twitter is a popular information-sharing social platform, and there are Chinese actors on it, but this argument isn't extended to suggest that it be banned, either. But somehow, a platform that does both must not be allowed to exist? I don't get it.

ardy42 6y ago
> Twitter is a popular information-sharing social platform, and there are Chinese actors on it, but this argument isn't extended to suggest that it be banned, either. But somehow, a platform that does both must not be allowed to exist? I don't get it. Is it that hard to understand? Twitter and Facebook will at least try to make a genuine effort to root out and ban "coordinated inauthentic activity" by the Chinese government (and if they don't they could probably be compelled to do so): https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2020/sep/23/facebook-removes-fake-accounts-with-links-to-china-and-philippines https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2020/sep/23/facebook-.... A Chinese-owned TikTok won't: either it won't do it at all, or it will make a fake/bad-faith effort. Similarly, Twitter and Facebook may gather a lot of non-public user data, but there's pretty much no chance that any of that data will be willingly handed over to Chinese intelligence. It should be noted that Chinese intelligence is not exclusively after top secret government data: they're also interested in many kinds of mundane information that you might be surprised by that can be leveraged to get it: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/11/us/politics/trump-china-trade.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/11/us/politics/trump-china-t....

Angeo34 6y ago

I can only repeat myself. If the US is spying on Germany it's fine but if China is spying on the US it's bad. Makes sense.

basch 6y ago

techcrunch had some food for thought on the topic as well, not just standard reuters/ap repost spam. https://techcrunch.com/2020/09/20/gangster-capitalism-and-the-american-theft-of-chinese-innovation/ https://techcrunch.com/2020/09/20/gangster-capitalism-and-th...