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Austrian government seeks to eliminate internet anonymity, with severe penalties
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
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- TamDenholm 7y agoIf there was ever a time to be in the VPN business, its now.
- Darmody 7y agoIt doesn't matter, actually. You as a user can use a VPN but the company based in Austria will have to implement this.
- neokantian 7y agoI recently run into this jewel: https://www.gate.io/page/contacts https://www.gate.io/page/contacts Mail: PO Box 2804, Grand Cayman KY1-1112 , Cayman Island. I don't think anybody involved with the site has ever been to Grand Cayman. Apparently, they process 10 BTC/USDT transactions per minute; and that is just one of the hundred trading pairs. Who can claim jurisdiction over that site? Maybe Grand Cayman, but when push comes to shove, I suspect that they won't be interested either.
- toyg 7y agoCayman Islands is a British Overseas Territory. Technically, the installed Governor could shut anything down at his wish. In practice it’s unlikely to happen, because (like with many British constitutional matters...) both the locals and the UK have an interest into maintaining a degree of ambiguity in current arrangements. This said, when the UK government is fully convinced that Caymans “should jump”, they eventually jump.
- Havoc 7y ago>both the locals and the UK have an interest into maintaining a degree of ambiguity in current arrangements. Interesting take on overseas territories. Fuzzy sure, but it never occurred to me that it's intentional
- toyg 7y ago- provides plausible deniability for unpopular or suspicious measures at both ends - keeps open the option of direct subsidies and favourable treatment for Cayman. I believe most BOTs are not financially self-sufficient, including Caymans. - keeps open the option of UK re-taking direct control in some circumstances (military requirements, oil discoveries etc). - maintains substantial independence in practice. For small territories, BOT arrangements provide the best of both worlds, at the low low price of occasionally bowing to UK authorities.
- chippy 7y agoAre they based in Austria?
- HunOL 7y agoI wish geeks realize that VPN is not the solution for stupid/doubtful laws. They should not exist in first place.
- TamDenholm 7y agoIts not the solution, its the defence. I'd love to have the laws not inacted in the first place, but thats unrealistic IMO.
- int_19h 7y agoIf the majority genuinely want such laws, what's your solution?
- adventured 7y agoIf the majority has become tyrannical in their thinking toward the minority when it comes to human rights, then get the hell out of the country or jurisdiction in question if you can. Especially if it has moved beyond the initial typically mostly benign stages. Authoritarianism and aggressive statism broadly, generally prompt opportunistic brain drain for exactly that reason. The US poached enormous amounts of talent from backwards, regressive European nations for more than a century previously.
- int_19h 7y agoProblem is, eventually you run out of places to run away to.
- vixen99 7y agoDoubtless the Chinese Authorities could offer useful advice on implementation.
- neokantian 7y ago> service providers on the web only have to obey the laws of the country in which they are situated ... What does it mean for an internet site to be situated somewhere? What country is that? For example, http://dreadditevelidot.onion http://dreadditevelidot.onion. Where is it situated? It does have an interesting discussion forum. It certainly has rules. Is it now supposed to appoint a liaison officer in Austria (and 200+ other jurisdictions)?
- starbugs 7y agoCould anyone shed some light on which problem this is supposed to solve exactly and what triggered it in the first place in Austria right now? Have there been any issues caused by anonymous posts recently? Maybe I'm just living under a rock, but my feeling was that the main issues we're currently facing stem from political distortion caused by populism misusing platform mechanisms to spread misinformation. I don't see how this is supposed to help.
- free101 7y agoTraditional parties center/left center/right in Europe have run their respective countries into the ground. Now they think that censoring information will save them so they can get back to the cozy system where state television is the source of truth. Also, of course it is always good for a politician to show some sort of activity, no matter how silly.
- arrrg 7y agoDescribing the current government in Austria as center-right is a bit ridiculous (to say nothing of putting words like centrist or left anywhere near descriptions of that government). Austrian politics have been moving further and further to the right and the FPÖ (junior coalition partner) is a xenophobic far-right party with authoritarian streaks. I’m really not comfortable in describing a government where such a party participates as center-right.
- tracked_citizen 7y agoCensoring the internet is a popular topic among all center parties in Europe. For example "Hate-speech" censorship, where the end justifies the means, is popular among many left leaning parties. Isn't the proposal from an ÖVP minister? Does the ÖVP not qualify as center-right?
- the_mitsuhiko 7y agoOeVP in the current incarnation is not in the center any more. Definitely right wing.
- jeena 7y ago"Results show that in the context of online firestorms, non-anonymous individuals are more aggressive compared to anonymous individuals" https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0155923 https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal...
- kantos2 7y agoSo what?
- wallace_f 7y agoMaybe I am wrong. I've observed usually the most aggressive to be kind of "knight of the status quo." They are opportunists seeking status and notoriety, whether consciously or not. They do this by being opportunists and attacking those who offered controversial opinions which garnered feelings of negativity. The knights latch onto that negativity as their opportunity for an assault. And you'll find they have put little genuine interest into the actual issue at hand, they're more interested in being a sort of "knight of the groupthink." So I think it is not really surprising to find users with their real names associated with conformity and status-seeking.
- macintux 7y agoTypically trolls don’t have to sound aggressive. They can wander in, throw a grenade into a discussion, and then act innocent of the carnage.
- xupybd 7y agoThat behaviour is not desirable in any space online. That’s what makes it so good here the moderation is pretty good. But is this a problem to be solved at the state level?
- raxxorrax 7y agoIt is not a problem. I do like moderation if I want to stay on topic. I also like the bad stuff. As long as there is room for both, I am happy. Enforcing identification isn't a realistic option.
- agumonkey 7y agoso what will be the next 'internet' ?
- layoutIfNeeded 7y agoUnlicensed ham radio
- kkarakk 7y agoPeer to peer connections are increasingly looking like a solution to me, google,apple all have research ongoing on how to have private intranets between mobiles in an area.ipfs could be extended for such usecases too. couple that with self hosted(or maybe companies do it for you for a fee) mobile base stations to extend the range of that intranet for coverage that is actually free of government snooping/supervision while simulataneously being truly local and a signboard of things happening in your area. of course they could try and ban that but unless you actually train cops to roam around with wifi packet sniffers i doubt it would be very enforceable.
- stdclass 7y agoThe funny thing is, they have a threshold of 100.000 users that must be registered at the site. So a site like unzensuriert.at (like breitbart in the US) which is a right leaning / government favourable website will not fall under such a law and won't get penalties.
- ptaipale 7y agoSo, will a site maintainer simply remove the older accounts that have not accessed the site in a while, to keep number of accounts below 100 000?
- ovi256 7y agoDepends if the law says currently registered users or historically registered users.
- buro9 7y agoI run a lot of websites, and this is exactly what I would do. I'd probably keep the content but orphan it and kill the underlying user and profile.
- the_mitsuhiko 7y agoIt’s completely unclear and ridiculous. There are some people on wikipedia atm that try to figure out how wikipedia could possibly comply and what it means: https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benutzer:Liberaler_Humanist/Die_Auswirkungen_des_Klarnamensgesetzes_auf_die_Wikipedia https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benutzer:Liberaler_Humanist/...
- stdclass 7y agoI wonder what will happen if somebody motivates a lot of people to register on a site, to push them over the threshold. It may also be possible to split your forums to different sites / domains if you reach the thresold. Anyhow I can't see how this will play out in real life and I hope our president will step in and prevent it from happening at all.
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- cutler 7y agoSo Austria is to become Internet Annex No. 2, second to China. Three cheers for democracy!
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- maxheadroom 7y agoNon-Banner-Happy Version: https://www.thelocal.at/20190410/austria-mulls-user-registration-for-online-platforms https://www.thelocal.at/20190410/austria-mulls-user-registra...
- Findus23 7y agoIn case anyone wants to know how this should work, this is the explanation by the minister: There are "technical possibilities where software can run on the backend that can immediately identify: Does the registered mobile phone number match the name and address or not?" - derstandard.at/2000101678440/Minister-Bluemels-Ominous-De-Anonymization-Software (from https://derstandard.at/2000101678440/Minister-Bluemels-Ominous-De-Anonymization-Software https://derstandard.at/2000101678440/Minister-Bluemels-Omino...) Translating it as "backend" is very friendly as he literally said "a software in the rear end".
- crunchiebones 7y agoit won't stop people getting multiple sim cards and registering those under different names
- looeee 7y agoThere's quite a few countries where you need to show a passport to register a sim card. Not sure if Austria is one.
- citeguised 7y agoIn Austria and Germany you can't get any SIM without ID as of now.
- rmu09 7y agoSo if you are a criminal that needs disposable SIM cards you just pay some cash-strapped person to get a bunch of prepaid ones for you.
- sfifs 7y agoThe point is you have a path to trace if needed. Say some criminal has done that, they've established some kind of contact with the "cash strapped person" to do so - either electronically or in person. Electronic traces are pretty feasible for major nation states to uncover since they're ingesting packet traffic metadata from the whole internet traffic of countries. In-person traces can often be covered by surveillance camera records etc etc. Once there is a point of entry, there is usually a path for entities with governmental powers to investigate.
- beilabs 7y agoBe still my beating heart. I misread this as for Australia and while I wouldn't put this past the current right-wing government they are coming into an election. But it's for Austria.....so....while I'm not affected I'm still annoyed.
- plasma 7y agoI misread as Australia too.
- ataturk 7y agoAs if the left wing isn't just the other wing on the bird? Seriously, there is no winning horse in this race--statists gonna statist, be they left or right leaning people. Either you support freedom and anonymous speech or you're a jackboot of one shade or another.
- rsto 7y agoThe article states a number of laws this proposition is most likely to conflict with. I very much doubt it will hold in court, and certainly someone will sue. I guess it won't even land at the European Court of Justice (ECJ). But even if I'm right, it still damages the public discussion on privacy and civil rights. It is one of many steps pulling public opinion in a frightening direction.
- gsich 7y agoIt will fail.
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- dalbasal 7y agoIn practice (particularly in europe and particularly the current regulatory MO) regulating the internet will often be deeply linked to de-anonymizing it. It isn't necessarily that way, but it is where the ball rolls by default, atm. A lot of the financial regulations of the past decade have been heavily identity oriented. Companies/banks need to ID customersID the origin/destination of funds, etc. Gambling has recently become more regulated in a lot of european countries. Similar story. ID customers (mostly for age, but also aml). ID where the money is coming from. Take all reasonable steps to find out if a customer is has more money than they should have, is a thief, gambling addict, etc.. In practice, this they request customers' passports, bank statements, payment slips... while at the same time pay for services that estimate customers income, review social media profiles, and such. Even GDPR, which I think did some to improve data security and a lot to reduce data selling, requires (in practice) most websites to keep of track of users' consent, which means keeping track of user identity, to some extent. I have a bad feeling about the current political drive to "regulate" more. There are certainly problems that need solutions, which are likely regulation. But, the details matter a lot. We don't want the default regulations.
- 0_gravitas 7y agoHas cracking down on internet freedoms ever lead to anything other than brain drain?
- superwayne 7y agoThere is also an interview (unfortunately in German, but automatically translated subtitles are available) with the minister who is responsible for the bill: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Sm7Q1bjW5o https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Sm7Q1bjW5o
- Findus23 7y agoAsked by the interviewer if this isn't the same as asking bar owners to check the ID of every visitor just in case a bar fight breaks out, the minister answered: "Das ist ja ein Blödsinn, was sie da reden" (This is total nonsense you are talking about)
- coldcode 7y agoBlödsinn is pretty much what this law is about.
- caddytodaddy 7y agoThere was a point made where an opposing lawmaker said that foreign companies like Facebook would not bother to comply. Ha! They will all love to have your real name and address confirmed, they will be more than happy to oblige. It would make many things easier, and allow them to monetize you much better. So strange, this seems to be the exact opposite of the trend in the USA where the public desire is moving towards requesting these companies to allow us to be anonymous. Just like...Europe? What’s going on in Austria?
- white-moss 7y agoI think Australia's movement is coming from China. It will go for large scale censorship.
- codedokode 7y agoI think they won't comply because it puts them into an advantegeous position compared to local sites who will have to do all this paperwork.
- int_19h 7y agoEurope is big on protecting your privacy against private entities. But the government is another matter - it's almost as if the presumption is that it's valid for it to hold such data on the flimsiest of reasons, and it only becomes abusive if used for some sinister purpose. The possibility of such abuse in the future is not considered a valid justification to prevent data collection. Conversely, in US, we place a lot of emphasis on preventing the government from collecting data that it could abuse, but then largely ignore the same issue with private entities. (Note, I'm not saying that it's universally true in either place, only that it seems to be the majority consensus. There's certainly plenty people vocally dissenting from it.)
- hestefisk 7y agoYou wonder how long before this becomes the default law in most western countries. We are slowly destroying the Internet and what it has given us.
- leo_song 7y agoCertainly comes with massive privacy leakage
- fractallyte 7y agoThere's already the Handy Signatur (https://www.handy-signatur.at/hs2/ https://www.handy-signatur.at/hs2/) - a way to digitally sign official documents using your smartphone ('handy'). The only way to obtain this is to have your ID and phone number registered with the authorities. It's convenient, but it's also a system that removes any possibility of anonymity. I imagine this kind of digital signature will be mandatory when signing up for the internet services described in the article...
- selimonder 7y agolike people can actually breath while being spied by multiple big brothers.
- stakhanov 7y agoThe fact that they're calling it "digitales vermummungsverbot" already tells you everything you need to know: There is no real rationale here, besides a political stunt of the right-wing government to curry favour with the right-leaning parts of the populus. The original "vermummungsverbot" is a law to prohibit people from wearing a veil in public. The pretense was that people hiding their identity were by definition a security threat to the law abiding general public. The political effect was that xenophobs liked the idea of a law that was opposed to certain aspects of islam. The reality is that the law has no effect, since there are almost no people in Austria would would want to wear a veil in public in the first place apart from maybe the odd female tourist visiting from Saudi Arabia. The idea now is that the same should apply to the digital sphere. My guess would be that they know full well that it's never going to pass into law and make it past Brussels. But to them it's a win-win. Either they get a law that appeases the right-wing populus. Or Brussels stops them, playing into their anti-European narrative, which would also gain them political capital.
- codedokode 7y agoIt is surprising. Even here, in Russia, we don't have such laws working yet. And I wonder, what Austrian authorities are going to do with foreign platforms like Telegram, which are unlikely to comply? Russian government has been trying to block Telegram using DPI for a year and didn't succeed. What about Twitter? Reddit? > In addition, web platforms would be required to appoint a liaison in Austria who would be responsible for making information about platform users available if it becomes necessary. If this person does not ensure that the regulation is followed, he or she could be punished with a fine of up to 100,000 euros. This will just put foreign platforms, who will ignore the law, into an advantageous position compared to local platforms. Users might switch to foreign platforms that don't require identification.
- coldtea 7y ago>This will just put foreign platforms, who will ignore the law, into an advantageous position compared to local platforms. Users might switch to foreign platforms that don't require identification. Doesn't really matter, as those things move the Overton window. Tomorrow, when the US, China, and EU adopt similar laws, there wont be any "foreign services" to use.
- kdme 7y agoWhat a scary idea. I want to say that its unlikely to happen but with the political climate right not... Anybody got an ideas, on what we are supposed to do when that happens
- coldtea 7y agoWell, the old ideas still work: revolt or submit.
- snazz 7y agoStart a “counterculture network” of onion-routed hidden services (not necessarily Tor, but something akin). Some element of steganography would likely be required to prevent government-controlled ISPs from simply dropping encrypted traffic, most likely. It would be hard and would likely attract only technically-minded individuals to use.
- therealmarv 7y agoNot North Korea, China or Turkey ... Austria. What a shame.
- NikkiA 7y agoAustria's politics is presently dominated by (far) right wing populism. This isn't really all that surprising in the context of a right wing authoritarian state.
- founderling 7y agoUsers of online forums in Austria will have to provide operators with their true identities or risk fines that could run into the millions. How trustworthy is a publication where the very first sentence of an article is nonsense? Users do not risk being fined millions. The webmasters will.
- masswerk 7y agoThe original German version has it somewhat right by just associating potential consequences after an indent. This is just a case of lost in translation.
- vorticalbox 7y agoHow can you fine someone who is anonymous?
- vectorEQ 7y agooff with their heads!
- ataturk 7y agoAh, the march of fascism and totalitarianism never ceases.
- Causality1 7y agoIn the US we have a little freak-out every time a private entity like the Blizzard gaming forums or Google+ does this. I cannot imagine the shitstorm if it was attempted on a national level.
- lazyjones 7y agoWe have to blame the clickbaity headline for this, but you too misunderstood that this isn't about de-anonymizing users' profiles for the general public. Nicknames are still allowed, but the forum operator has to verify your ID at registration. Just like Blizzard knows your real name from your subscription details.
- carnagii 7y agoLaws like this are long past due. This particular law may not be the best implementation but governments do need to take action to provide their citizens with a real public square online. Excluding fake and paid users (without a declaration of who is paying them) from that space and protecting free speech in that space is essential to having a public policy discussion. Private corporations have not done this, and probably never will, so government is the only option left.
- 127 7y agoThe government isn't providing a public square. Internet is already that and more. The government is enforcing everyone to wear visible name tags by threatening violence on those who disobey.
- peletiah 7y agoThis law is like having to provide and record ID when entering a concert, restaurant or other public places. It's an authoritarian dream, but will be shot down by courts, that's for sure.
- carnagii 7y ago> having to provide and record ID when entering a concert, restaurant or other public places What do you think cell phones and credit cards are? In all of your examples you do have to provide an ID.
- rhn_mk1 7y agoThe government may and should provide their citizens with a public square online, but neither do they need to take away anonymity on existing squares, nor does the public square need to be non-anonymous. The concept of being able to go out on the streets, make mistakes, and have them be forgotten is old and integral to public spaces IMO.
- carnagii 7y agoYes, I agree with this. I think that governments should provide a verifiable digital ID the same way they provide physical IDs and that they should provide communications platforms that allow people to communicate with these digital IDs in a way that protects their rights the same way that they provide mail service. I do not think that governments should be regulating/banning activity on private platforms but should be offering an alternative where private platforms fall short. This is really nothing more than bringing existing government services (ID, mail, voting, parliaments) fully up to date with digital technology. There is a big gap right now where governments don't understand what they should be doing or are incapable of doing it. They recognize the need for action because they see that things are going wrong but are not proposing or implementing the correct solutions yet.
- lessname 7y agoIt's not the only attempt of the current government of Austria to do something against privacy on the internet. - There is the idea of a tax called "Digitalsteuer": A tax for internet companies which didn't pay taxes for some reason. However, it is estimated this would make only some million dollars (~25 to 30/year). At the same time, it could lead to too much surveillance because somebody would have to save the address and location data of Austrian users somewhere. https://derstandard.at/2000100880156/Kritiker-befuerchten-durch-DigitalsteuergesetzTotalueberwachung https://derstandard.at/2000100880156/Kritiker-befuerchten-du... - And the "Überwachungspaket": -> you need to register prepaid sim cards -> limitation of the secrecy of letters -> data retention by ISPs etc https://epicenter.works/thema/ueberwachungspaket https://epicenter.works/thema/ueberwachungspaket
- mjparrott 7y agoIs this Austria or North Korea? I’m appalled by this idea.
- wellpast 7y agoTo preserve the anonymity of the source of my own ideas, I might write every tweet/post like so: “A friend of mine says, ‘Woke politics are getting absurd.’” I wonder if this would be violation of the law...
- keepmesmall 7y agoI'm not sure "I was raised not to rat on friends" holds up in court.
- ficklepickle 7y agoThat reminds me of SWIM [0] from the drugs forums back in the day [0] Someone Who Isn't Me. I believe it was an attempt to avoid admitting to illegal things. It was mandatory to use SWIM instead of the first-person on some forums.
- freshm087 7y agoSuch law exists in Belarus, and mr.Kurz (Austrian chancellor) recently visited it.
- amiune 7y agoMore information asymmetry. The government can know about you but you can't know about the government. To ask this the government must be perfectly transparent and by that contradict the definition of government
- fit2rule 7y agoToday I was driving around beautiful spring-time Vienna, and I happened to stop at a traffic light as Chancellor Kurz, sitting in the passenger seat of some 2019 rich-car convertible, also happened to stop in the lane next to me. He gave me such an evil glare, it was astonishing. So I glared back at him. In real life, I found him to be as loathsome a creature as in media. Perhaps, fatter than I thought he was. I hope I can continue to report such things on the Internet in the future.
- phkahler 7y agoOn reading the headline my first thought was "That's fine just as long as it applies to everyone" and then I see that it's just a measure to control people. Eliminating anonymity should be done through measures that amount to enforcing traceability at fundamental technical levels - that will affect everything from spam to fraud. But simplistic things like this just require people to identify themselves, which is just a form of social control.
- thedailymail 7y agoIf anonymity is made criminal, only criminals will have anonymity.
- kerng 7y agoThe comparison to the real world is rather flawed, especially in countries like Austria. For instance your not required to show an ID when buying groceries, buying alcohol or entering a bar. Identification is on demand, not mandatory.
- speeq 7y agoI don't understand why there's so much racism in that tiny nation. Almost every time I cross the border into Austria, the police flags me down and asks for my passport. I'm Austrian citizen, born and raised but a person of colour. Even though I speak German fluently, authorities always speak in English to me. It gave me so much anxiety that I moved to the UK and noticed that I'm treated with much more respect and opportunities. Austria is a beautiful country and most people are nice but man..some people can be very small-minded there. The news would make you believe that the UK is this backwards right-wing nation because of Brexit but you'll never see a muslim of Pakistani descent as mayor in Vienna or people of colour in the Austrian parliament and that's honestly very depressing.
- gbajson 7y agoHow is it related to the topic?
- sunnysnews 7y agoAnyone outside austria who needs a developer (C#, Java, full stack webdev...)? I think i don't want to live here any more..
- scriptkiddy 7y agoLaws like this one and the recent anti-crypto law in Australia have me really worried for the future of small, privately owned sites. If laws like these continue to pass, it's going to become more and more difficult for small sites to navigate the legal regulations around running a web application. This, in turn, will discourage people from building their own web applications, which will lead to a decrease in overall innovation in the online space. The conspiracy theorist in me is starting to see these laws as some sort of ploy by the big players(google, amazon, facebook, etc.) to create a sort of monopoly on the internet by making it so difficult to enter the web application space that only large companies with massive amounts of resources can even play the game. As someone who is currently working on a new art sharing platform that will include discussion threads, I'm starting to get worried about needing to comply with these types of laws. Not that I would comply, as I believe one's internet experience should be as anonymous as one wants it to be. It's a real shitty place to be. I hope this law gets shot down and all future laws in the same vein don't gain traction.
- Fnoord 7y agoRelated: UK and NL secret services no longer share data with Austria b/c Russia ties [1] [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19701958 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19701958
- contingencies 7y agoIf you try to ban the future, it will just happen elsewhere. - Paul Graham (2017) ... via http://github.com/globalcitizen/taoup http://github.com/globalcitizen/taoup
- vraivroo 7y agoJust assert that it is unfairly harmful to some minority group, problem solved.
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- maxhedrome 7y agoJust wait until they start demanding the use of gold twitter Star of David badges.
- davidmott_ 7y agoThat is going to be very hard to implement; arguably impossible.