8 ms·

Rides of Glory – Uber Blog (2012)

224 points by t0dd 12y ago

sergiotapia 12y ago
I can see why they deleted it, it's extremely cringey.
- craigvn 12y ago
  And possibly trying to whitewash their history.
- waterlesscloud 12y ago
  I think their post (also now deleted) inferring a connection between welfare checks and spikes in prostitution might have been even more cringey. https://web.archive.org/web/20140827195709/http://blog.uber.com/2011/09/13/uberdata-how-prostitution-and-alcohol-make-uber-better/ https://web.archive.org/web/20140827195709/http://blog.uber.... Note that both of these posts had been up for years and only disappeared in the last few days.
  - JeremyMorgan 12y ago
    Someone signed up at reputation.com
  - karissa 12y ago
    even more cringey is the original title of the post which you can see in the url: "uberdata-how-prostitution-and-alcohol-make-uber-better/"
  - bmm6o 12y ago
    What's strange to me about that one is the results aren't drawn from Uber data at all. It's just crime statistics broken down by day.
  - wtbob 12y ago
    Cringey, or true?
    - potatolicious 12y ago
      It can be both, like the annoying coworker who won't shut up about how much sex he had over the weekend, or the guy who raves about his favorite scotch at an AA meeting. A correct observation does not shield it from being inappropriate or in poor taste.
- cbd1984 12y ago
  Is it cringey because of the data they present, or because of the conclusions they draw from that data?
  - deleted 12y ago
    [deleted]
  - eli 12y ago
    I think probably the language and tone of the post more than either the data or the conclusions.
    - cbd1984 12y ago
      Interesting. In the more socially-aware fora I'm familiar with, what's called "tone policing" or "tone trolling" is seen as a major faux pas, an aggressive act designed to shut people out of the conversation.
      - eli 12y ago
        Don't mean to offend anyone, but I think tone is usually the cause for something sounding "cringey"
      - wutbrodo 12y ago
        Are you implying you agree with that? I always thought that accusations of tone policing was the most childish thing about that kind of forum/community.
- clarkm 12y ago
  Why? Do you find OkCupid's blog posts cringey too?
  - mikeash 12y ago
    Sex is OkCupid's business, while it's not Uber's business. And yes, a lot of people find fault with their blog posts too. You'll see lots of comments like that on any related HN submission.
    - roywiggins 12y ago
      I never minded OkCupid because it's sort of a game anyway. It's all online, and whether you meet someone there or not is up to you to tell OkCupid. Uber is mining information about people's movements in the real world, which feels ickier.
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
codezero 12y ago
Given the time frames they looked at, couldn't a bunch of these be people going to a pub, and then leaving after last call? This would also explain the spike near the weekend, among other things.
- dkural 12y ago
  that would certainly explain the Boston geographic map.
- mturmon 12y ago
  Or, parties and events at downtown hotels (e.g., Boston back bay).
colinbartlett 12y ago
Is it sad that in the realm of Uber blunders I find this relatively tame?
- meowface 12y ago
  Yeah, frankly this doesn't seem all that bad compared to some of the words coming out of executives' mouths. One could do an analysis like this while still working with anonymized data. Still a bit creepy, but not that different from reports and blog posts you see from other startups and tech companies.
  - potatolicious 12y ago
    Uber is suffering from a lack of credibility built up by by years of mild-to-moderate asshole behavior. Nothing they've done so far, in isolation, are IMO worth the pitchforks being handed out in tech and mainstream consciousness right now, but taken as a whole it's pretty easy to see why people aren't willing to cut Uber any slack or give them the benefit of the doubt. So yeah, this thing by itself isn't "that bad", but it's one piece of a large puzzle of Uber's misbehavior.
    - meowface 12y ago
      Agreed.
  - bluetshirt 12y ago
    The trouble is that it all adds up to paint a picture of a corporate culture that's a little too comfortable being icky.
- FleshGordon 12y ago
  It's because it's just not that bad in general.
striking 12y ago
To me, it's not even the use of data per se that is most creepy about this post. Really, the tone of the essay seems to revel in "having 'fun' with user data," as if a sophomore at a university wrote it. I mean, I found the idea behind the post interesting: of course you can analyze trends in ridership to draw interesting conclusions. At the end of the day, however, it's a horrible idea to say "Hey, we know which of you are being 'frisky' and where!" Perhaps with a different motivation, this post wouldn't be nearly as ruinous. How about ridership patterns of sick or socioeconomically disadvantaged people? That's the kind of data that can change lives for the better.
- DubiousPusher 12y ago
  Agreed, it's all about the vibe. The writer feels like that uncle that conspicuously left openings for you to talk about your 18 year old love life in every conversation. And who was just a bit too enthusiastic the time you dated a cheerleader for a few months.
- simonster 12y ago
  The author is Bradley Voytek (http://darb.ketyov.com http://darb.ketyov.com), who is now a professor of neuroscience and should probably know better.
  - zenogais 12y ago
    I've found a pretty high prevalence of stunted maturity in academia, so it's none too surprising.
  - coke12 12y ago
    He acknowledges the questionable nature of his blog posts on his website: > Between June 2011 and August 2011 I worked with my friends over at Uber as their data scientist, writing (what I thought were) amusing, data-driven blog posts (among other, more serious roles).
- anigbrowl 12y ago
  ridership patterns of sick or socioeconomically disadvantaged people You mean the sort of people who take the bus, who are pretty much the opposite of their target customers?
chockablock 12y ago
In another deleted post [0] the author talks about using a name-to-gender API to look at ride locations by gender, which implies that these analyses were not done using anonymized data. [0] https://web.archive.org/web/20140827195715/http://blog.uber.com/2012/01/09/uberdata-san-franciscomics/ https://web.archive.org/web/20140827195715/http://blog.uber....
- striking 12y ago
  Personally, I think they do it with raw access to the database. https://www.uber.com/legal/usa/privacy https://www.uber.com/legal/usa/privacy under the heading "How do we use the information collected" says nothing about anonymizing rideshare data.
- kogir 12y ago
  You have to start with the original data, which is obviously de-anonymized. Full data -> [gender, time, origin neighborhood, destination neighborhood] leaves you with a pretty anonymous dataset, and is all that would be required for this analysis. Internal metrics teams nearly always have access to complete data. The issue is sharing non-anonymized data externally.
  - chockablock 12y ago
    I agree it's possible that the name-to-gender mapping was done before the full ride data was handed over to this analyst. (Though just removing real names would still leave a lot to be desired in the anonymizing process). However there's no mention in these posts of such safeguards, and subjectively the post reads more like the analyst is just fishing around in the full raw dataset of ride times, start and end locations, and names. To wit: "What else can we learn? First, we can devise a way to statistically assess whether there are more women or men in a neighborhood than we’d expect. [...] We used Rapleaf’s Name to Gender API to assess the likelihood of a rider’s gender given their name, only accepting a match if the probability was >= 95%." And in the original post, he categorizes rides as possibly related to a late-night hookup based on whether the destination and departure points for 2 rides are within 0.1 mi of each other. >Internal metrics teams nearly always have access to complete data. The issue is sharing non-anonymized data externally. I disagree pretty strongly with this. Do you think that your average Uber rider would be OK with Uber employees analyzing their ride patterns (with their real names attached) to try to figure out where and when they are having sex? Do you think Uber should allow such access to its employees by policy? (It seems we agree that writing a blog post about it is not a great idea.)
dil8 12y ago
Stuff like this is one of the many reasons I love archive.org. I think i's really important to capture historical artifacts for future analysis. The service they provide doesn't allow the "Ministry of Truth"[1] to doctor historical documents to meet their present day narrative. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ministry_of_Truth https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ministry_of_Truth
- nathanb 12y ago
  Sadly, it does. archive.org respect the robots.txt of the current website owner. This can mean that they have the data but choose not to give you access to them. I have seen cases in the past where a website I once frequented became defunct, then the domain expired, then someone parked a holding page on that domain including a robots.txt that keeps archive.org from displaying the old data (which do not even belong to the current owner of the domain!). If they wanted to, there are a number of ways Uber could prevent archive.org from displaying that blog post. Many of these ways are due to the good faith under which archive.org operates (nobody is forcing them to respect robots.txt), and some even involve resorting to legal methods. But history is always mutable. (Nothing but love on my end for archive.org, believe me! But I do want to point out the lengths that some people will go to alter the historical record).
  - dil8 12y ago
    Thanks for the info, I didn't know that.
  - TazeTSchnitzel 12y ago
    The Internet Archive should implement some sort of digital signature system to allow website owners with foresight to prevent this.
    - toyg 12y ago
      They could just timestamp different versions of robots.txt (which they probably do already), and respect it depending on date (which is more of a hassle, because you have to build it in your UI logic).
api 12y ago
Big bro is watching you.
- cbd1984 12y ago
  > Big bro is watching you. We are watching them pretty close, aren't we?
danso 12y ago
Off-topic: Because of situations like these, I'm surprised that part of the checklist when launching a PR blog is not: "Block googlearchive/archive.org robots" There have been very, very few times when a company's webpage was down and I needed to go to google-archive or archive.org to refer to some innocuous information. However, the times that I've used those sites to gather evidence of possible whitewashing? Many, many times, in comparison.
- yuhong 12y ago
  What is funny is that using robots.txt would have been enough.
bren2013 12y ago
Uber employees are the kind of people who kept a telescope in their bedroom window to peep on girls down the street. I'll never understand why they're still in business.
- berelig 12y ago
  They provide a convenient, affordable service that people need. I doubt any significant number of their users care or even know about the company's shady and unethical doings.
- op00to 12y ago
  They're still in business because they are far better than the entrenched, governmentally-appointed taxi companies in any locality I've been in, except for perhaps Manhattan.
  - cddotdotslash 12y ago
    Manhattanite here. Taxis are still terrible for some things. While it's almost never impossible to find one, they still do the same tricks of "oh, the credit card machine is broken," and "I'll only drive uptown right now," and "I don't drive to JFK in the morning." I can't stand a lot of Uber's ethical practices, but I still prefer them over cabs.
    - potatolicious 12y ago
      Another Manhattanite here, I actually prefer cabs to Uber, though I prefer Lyft over both. Uber drivers in the last year have become, without fail, become much worse at pathfinding than cab drivers. I've had drivers completely miss major turns or get lost while the meter's running. And more recently, I've noticed a pattern of behavior where I'd call an Uber and the car wouldn't even begin moving for > 5 minutes. I'm not sure what that's all about, maybe they're waiting for Surge to kick in in the hopes of getting a fatter fare? Either way, I have not had an Uber arrive within the estimated time for over a year. Lyft drivers on the other hand start moving right away after they're assigned. > "oh, the credit card machine is broken," and "I'll only drive uptown right now," It sucks that you have to deal with it, but the solution is really simple. Just get in the cab, don't be a sucker and tell the driver where you're going through the window. If they balk, take out your phone and take a picture of their license at the back and tell them you're dialing 311. They will immediately fold and take you where you're going. Ditto credit card - if the credit card machine is broken they are obligated to tell you at the beginning of the ride, and if they don't you can walk away for free. Ditto the JFK thing - a cab cannot refuse a fare within city limits. I've never seen a cabbie not fold like a house of cards when threatened with a 311 call. For all its warts the T&LC actually polices driver complaints pretty hard.
mmcclure 12y ago
I gotta say, I'm not really seeing the creepy / cringey / evil / whatever-else here... Anyone (especially the HN crowd) should know they have the data, and if you think they're not carefully analyzing it behind the scenes (like every other tech company who has your data), I've got things to sell you. I personally think a tiny peek like this into the data, much like the usage posts that OKCupid, YouPorn, and others give, is neat.
- sillysaurus3 12y ago
  Yeah, the blog post seems fine minus the last sentence. And if they'd simply removed the last sentence, I doubt anyone would have noticed. The Streisand effect is so well-known that I'm surprised anyone would delete a blog post nowadays. EDIT: I actually hadn't read the blog post in detail until now, which was more than a little dumb. I thought it was just an analysis of rides along with some neat heatmap images. I didn't realize it was about sexual datapoints.
  - jasonm23 12y ago
    So well known, much like the cycle of violence... And yet.
- striking 12y ago
  The problem here (for me personally, at least) is that Uber is not in the business of selling dates/"encounters" and that people don't expect a ridesharing company to go right for the sexual data. Even OKCupid is straddling the line here with http://blog.okcupid.com/index.php/we-experiment-on-human-beings/ http://blog.okcupid.com/index.php/we-experiment-on-human-bei... noting that: To test this, we took pairs of bad matches (actual 30% match) and told them they were exceptionally good for each other (displaying a 90% match.) That's really not something people like having done to them. And the "HN crowd" shouldn't have an expectation of privacy and decency in data? Of course they're analyzing data, but it's really the viewpoint from which they do it that is unsettling. OKCupid says "no, duh, we're unethical. Deal with it." Uber says "Check it out! We drew a line between social security checks and prostitution!" (as waterlesscloud notes at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8644138 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8644138 ) There are a million more beneficial ways that people could be using the data. Fighting hunger, poverty, illiteracy, etc., to me, is a "good" use of Big Data. Looking at sexual habits (when you're not selling sex) or openly manipulating people to get data is, to me, a "bad" use.
EvanL 12y ago
I think it's a lot of fun and they pulled some interesting data from it. There are far more pressing concerns in the world right now, people have sex sometimes NBD.
joshvm 12y ago
Curious to see how companies deal with this kind of data because, ignoring the creep-factor, it is thoroughly interesting to see these sort of patterns emerge and the only way you can find out this kind of stuff is to track people. It's the actions of the unscrupulous minority that ruin this for the rest of us. I personally believe that most of the time when companies say "We simply aren't that interested in you." they're probably telling the truth. Stats is pointless if you look at single points. It only takes one person to snoop on an ex or to blow everything up. Unfortunately you have to mitigate that risk, but proper database sanitisation before handing over to the analysts should be sufficient. Provided there is no overlap between the sensitive database and the one the analysts have access to there shouldn't be a problem. I guess it's a side effect of becoming 'big' that you can no longer run these kind of public posts without looking extremely unprofessional.
- yuhong 12y ago
  I guess it's a side effect of becoming 'big' that you can no longer run these kind of public posts without looking extremely unprofessional. Does it really matter these days?
jpeg_hero 12y ago
blog article was 2.5 yrs ago, they were pulling out all the stops to get traction. now they have critical mass they can transition into "full boring corp speak" HN don't throw stones, what boundaries are pushing to get traction right now?
- teacup50 12y ago
  > HN don't throw stones, what boundaries are pushing to get traction right now? We're not pushing ethical boundaries.
- tripzilch 12y ago
  Published 2.5 years ago, removed in the past couple of days, after recent events. It's not like they've grown up over the years, it's that they got called on it.
sp332 12y ago
Ahem https://archive.org/donate https://archive.org/donate
almost_usual 12y ago
"You people are fascinating." Is this data fascinating? I guess the time of year patterns and holiday anomalies are interesting but aside from that this behavior seems obvious?
leeber 12y ago
Comparing Uber to OKCupid is ridiculous. OKCupid is a dating website which deliberately branded themselves as further on the "edgy" and "hookup" side of dating websites. Then you have POF somewhere in the middle, with eHarmony way on the other side, quite opposite of OKCupid. I'm not sure why Uber would want to put themselves anywhere on that same scale (i.e. aligning your brand with notions of sex and one night stands). There's a time and a place for everything, and for edgy data analysis like this -- that "place" is edgy dating websites who want to be known for hooking up. It's unprofessional and out of line with their brand image, obviously why the post got deleted. IMO this further validates all the bad press the media has been publishing about Uber.
leeber 12y ago
One more thing-- Would google publish data that shows how searches for porn spike during different times of the day or times of the year, as if it's some "cool and hip and edgy!" insight? I don't think so. And for the same reason they don't (whatever reason that is), it would probably also be wise for Uber not to post stuff like this. I really don't care, nor am I offended. I'm just speculating that Uber doesn't have the brightest team of execs and still have a lot of "growing up" to do.
- nathanb 12y ago
  This is actually a really good point. Google have been fighting a public relations war for a long time now to not appear creepy or stalkerish. I can think of few things they could blog about to make people consider not using Google more than "we know when you're looking for porn". Uber have not (yet?) been widely called out as being creepy the way Google have. But Uber have data that can be every bit as personal as your search history, and posts like these make it obvious that people at Uber are thinking hard about putting those data to use. There's a lot lurking under what at first glance appears to be merely a poorly-considered sophomorish post.
pistle 12y ago
So they blog about it in aggregate. It's not like they would know exactly who each of those riders were and would think about using that data for anything than the lulz. I'm sure this sort of data wouldn't be interesting for social engineering purposes in the hands of 'others' as well.
bricestacey 12y ago
The Boston anomaly and map is interesting. The requirements are a trip from 10pm-4am and a trip again 4-6 hours later. However, due to the MBTA shutting down around 12:30am and bars closing at 2am the criteria captures just about any partygoer. So if you took an uber to some bar/club/friends at 10-11pm and again after 2am when all bars or the T is closed, you're likely counted. I doubt this represents customers having one night stands and is likely just a heat map. This is further explained by the small pocket in Somerville that is not accessible by the train, but by bus where people may opt for an uber. That's not to say that there are no rides of glory or whatever the hell kids call it today.
djtriptych 12y ago
Anyone know what they used for the map visualizations? They're beautiful...
mgalka 12y ago
It is a bit unsettling that this information is out there, but I agree that it is fairly obvious that they have this data. And as long as they are not exposing the individuals, I don't see it as irresponsible to publish something like this. There was a related story published recently, NYC Taxicab Dataset Exposes Strip Club Johns and Celebrity Trips http://research.neustar.biz/2014/09/15/riding-with-the-stars-passenger-privacy-in-the-nyc-taxicab-dataset/ http://research.neustar.biz/2014/09/15/riding-with-the-stars...

224 points by t0dd 12y ago

sergiotapia 12y ago

I can see why they deleted it, it's extremely cringey.

craigvn 12y ago
And possibly trying to whitewash their history.
waterlesscloud 12y ago
I think their post (also now deleted) inferring a connection between welfare checks and spikes in prostitution might have been even more cringey. https://web.archive.org/web/20140827195709/http://blog.uber.com/2011/09/13/uberdata-how-prostitution-and-alcohol-make-uber-better/ https://web.archive.org/web/20140827195709/http://blog.uber.... Note that both of these posts had been up for years and only disappeared in the last few days.
- JeremyMorgan 12y ago
  Someone signed up at reputation.com
- karissa 12y ago
  even more cringey is the original title of the post which you can see in the url: "uberdata-how-prostitution-and-alcohol-make-uber-better/"
- bmm6o 12y ago
  What's strange to me about that one is the results aren't drawn from Uber data at all. It's just crime statistics broken down by day.
- wtbob 12y ago
  Cringey, or true?
  - potatolicious 12y ago
    It can be both, like the annoying coworker who won't shut up about how much sex he had over the weekend, or the guy who raves about his favorite scotch at an AA meeting. A correct observation does not shield it from being inappropriate or in poor taste.
cbd1984 12y ago
Is it cringey because of the data they present, or because of the conclusions they draw from that data?
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
- eli 12y ago
  I think probably the language and tone of the post more than either the data or the conclusions.
  - cbd1984 12y ago
    Interesting. In the more socially-aware fora I'm familiar with, what's called "tone policing" or "tone trolling" is seen as a major faux pas, an aggressive act designed to shut people out of the conversation.
    - eli 12y ago
      Don't mean to offend anyone, but I think tone is usually the cause for something sounding "cringey"
    - wutbrodo 12y ago
      Are you implying you agree with that? I always thought that accusations of tone policing was the most childish thing about that kind of forum/community.
clarkm 12y ago
Why? Do you find OkCupid's blog posts cringey too?
- mikeash 12y ago
  Sex is OkCupid's business, while it's not Uber's business. And yes, a lot of people find fault with their blog posts too. You'll see lots of comments like that on any related HN submission.
  - roywiggins 12y ago
    I never minded OkCupid because it's sort of a game anyway. It's all online, and whether you meet someone there or not is up to you to tell OkCupid. Uber is mining information about people's movements in the real world, which feels ickier.

deleted 12y ago

[deleted]

codezero 12y ago

Given the time frames they looked at, couldn't a bunch of these be people going to a pub, and then leaving after last call? This would also explain the spike near the weekend, among other things.

dkural 12y ago
that would certainly explain the Boston geographic map.
mturmon 12y ago
Or, parties and events at downtown hotels (e.g., Boston back bay).

colinbartlett 12y ago

Is it sad that in the realm of Uber blunders I find this relatively tame?

meowface 12y ago
Yeah, frankly this doesn't seem all that bad compared to some of the words coming out of executives' mouths. One could do an analysis like this while still working with anonymized data. Still a bit creepy, but not that different from reports and blog posts you see from other startups and tech companies.
- potatolicious 12y ago
  Uber is suffering from a lack of credibility built up by by years of mild-to-moderate asshole behavior. Nothing they've done so far, in isolation, are IMO worth the pitchforks being handed out in tech and mainstream consciousness right now, but taken as a whole it's pretty easy to see why people aren't willing to cut Uber any slack or give them the benefit of the doubt. So yeah, this thing by itself isn't "that bad", but it's one piece of a large puzzle of Uber's misbehavior.
  - meowface 12y ago
    Agreed.
- bluetshirt 12y ago
  The trouble is that it all adds up to paint a picture of a corporate culture that's a little too comfortable being icky.
FleshGordon 12y ago
It's because it's just not that bad in general.

striking 12y ago

To me, it's not even the use of data per se that is most creepy about this post. Really, the tone of the essay seems to revel in "having 'fun' with user data," as if a sophomore at a university wrote it. I mean, I found the idea behind the post interesting: of course you can analyze trends in ridership to draw interesting conclusions. At the end of the day, however, it's a horrible idea to say "Hey, we know which of you are being 'frisky' and where!" Perhaps with a different motivation, this post wouldn't be nearly as ruinous. How about ridership patterns of sick or socioeconomically disadvantaged people? That's the kind of data that can change lives for the better.

DubiousPusher 12y ago
Agreed, it's all about the vibe. The writer feels like that uncle that conspicuously left openings for you to talk about your 18 year old love life in every conversation. And who was just a bit too enthusiastic the time you dated a cheerleader for a few months.
simonster 12y ago
The author is Bradley Voytek (http://darb.ketyov.com http://darb.ketyov.com), who is now a professor of neuroscience and should probably know better.
- zenogais 12y ago
  I've found a pretty high prevalence of stunted maturity in academia, so it's none too surprising.
- coke12 12y ago
  He acknowledges the questionable nature of his blog posts on his website: > Between June 2011 and August 2011 I worked with my friends over at Uber as their data scientist, writing (what I thought were) amusing, data-driven blog posts (among other, more serious roles).
anigbrowl 12y ago
ridership patterns of sick or socioeconomically disadvantaged people You mean the sort of people who take the bus, who are pretty much the opposite of their target customers?

chockablock 12y ago

In another deleted post [0] the author talks about using a name-to-gender API to look at ride locations by gender, which implies that these analyses were not done using anonymized data. [0] https://web.archive.org/web/20140827195715/http://blog.uber.com/2012/01/09/uberdata-san-franciscomics/ https://web.archive.org/web/20140827195715/http://blog.uber....

striking 12y ago
Personally, I think they do it with raw access to the database. https://www.uber.com/legal/usa/privacy https://www.uber.com/legal/usa/privacy under the heading "How do we use the information collected" says nothing about anonymizing rideshare data.
kogir 12y ago
You have to start with the original data, which is obviously de-anonymized. Full data -> [gender, time, origin neighborhood, destination neighborhood] leaves you with a pretty anonymous dataset, and is all that would be required for this analysis. Internal metrics teams nearly always have access to complete data. The issue is sharing non-anonymized data externally.
- chockablock 12y ago
  I agree it's possible that the name-to-gender mapping was done before the full ride data was handed over to this analyst. (Though just removing real names would still leave a lot to be desired in the anonymizing process). However there's no mention in these posts of such safeguards, and subjectively the post reads more like the analyst is just fishing around in the full raw dataset of ride times, start and end locations, and names. To wit: "What else can we learn? First, we can devise a way to statistically assess whether there are more women or men in a neighborhood than we’d expect. [...] We used Rapleaf’s Name to Gender API to assess the likelihood of a rider’s gender given their name, only accepting a match if the probability was >= 95%." And in the original post, he categorizes rides as possibly related to a late-night hookup based on whether the destination and departure points for 2 rides are within 0.1 mi of each other. >Internal metrics teams nearly always have access to complete data. The issue is sharing non-anonymized data externally. I disagree pretty strongly with this. Do you think that your average Uber rider would be OK with Uber employees analyzing their ride patterns (with their real names attached) to try to figure out where and when they are having sex? Do you think Uber should allow such access to its employees by policy? (It seems we agree that writing a blog post about it is not a great idea.)

dil8 12y ago

Stuff like this is one of the many reasons I love archive.org. I think i's really important to capture historical artifacts for future analysis. The service they provide doesn't allow the "Ministry of Truth"[1] to doctor historical documents to meet their present day narrative. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ministry_of_Truth https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ministry_of_Truth

nathanb 12y ago
Sadly, it does. archive.org respect the robots.txt of the current website owner. This can mean that they have the data but choose not to give you access to them. I have seen cases in the past where a website I once frequented became defunct, then the domain expired, then someone parked a holding page on that domain including a robots.txt that keeps archive.org from displaying the old data (which do not even belong to the current owner of the domain!). If they wanted to, there are a number of ways Uber could prevent archive.org from displaying that blog post. Many of these ways are due to the good faith under which archive.org operates (nobody is forcing them to respect robots.txt), and some even involve resorting to legal methods. But history is always mutable. (Nothing but love on my end for archive.org, believe me! But I do want to point out the lengths that some people will go to alter the historical record).
- dil8 12y ago
  Thanks for the info, I didn't know that.
- TazeTSchnitzel 12y ago
  The Internet Archive should implement some sort of digital signature system to allow website owners with foresight to prevent this.
  - toyg 12y ago
    They could just timestamp different versions of robots.txt (which they probably do already), and respect it depending on date (which is more of a hassle, because you have to build it in your UI logic).

api 12y ago

Big bro is watching you.

cbd1984 12y ago
> Big bro is watching you. We are watching them pretty close, aren't we?

danso 12y ago

Off-topic: Because of situations like these, I'm surprised that part of the checklist when launching a PR blog is not: "Block googlearchive/archive.org robots" There have been very, very few times when a company's webpage was down and I needed to go to google-archive or archive.org to refer to some innocuous information. However, the times that I've used those sites to gather evidence of possible whitewashing? Many, many times, in comparison.

yuhong 12y ago
What is funny is that using robots.txt would have been enough.

bren2013 12y ago

Uber employees are the kind of people who kept a telescope in their bedroom window to peep on girls down the street. I'll never understand why they're still in business.

berelig 12y ago
They provide a convenient, affordable service that people need. I doubt any significant number of their users care or even know about the company's shady and unethical doings.
op00to 12y ago
They're still in business because they are far better than the entrenched, governmentally-appointed taxi companies in any locality I've been in, except for perhaps Manhattan.
- cddotdotslash 12y ago
  Manhattanite here. Taxis are still terrible for some things. While it's almost never impossible to find one, they still do the same tricks of "oh, the credit card machine is broken," and "I'll only drive uptown right now," and "I don't drive to JFK in the morning." I can't stand a lot of Uber's ethical practices, but I still prefer them over cabs.
  - potatolicious 12y ago
    Another Manhattanite here, I actually prefer cabs to Uber, though I prefer Lyft over both. Uber drivers in the last year have become, without fail, become much worse at pathfinding than cab drivers. I've had drivers completely miss major turns or get lost while the meter's running. And more recently, I've noticed a pattern of behavior where I'd call an Uber and the car wouldn't even begin moving for > 5 minutes. I'm not sure what that's all about, maybe they're waiting for Surge to kick in in the hopes of getting a fatter fare? Either way, I have not had an Uber arrive within the estimated time for over a year. Lyft drivers on the other hand start moving right away after they're assigned. > "oh, the credit card machine is broken," and "I'll only drive uptown right now," It sucks that you have to deal with it, but the solution is really simple. Just get in the cab, don't be a sucker and tell the driver where you're going through the window. If they balk, take out your phone and take a picture of their license at the back and tell them you're dialing 311. They will immediately fold and take you where you're going. Ditto credit card - if the credit card machine is broken they are obligated to tell you at the beginning of the ride, and if they don't you can walk away for free. Ditto the JFK thing - a cab cannot refuse a fare within city limits. I've never seen a cabbie not fold like a house of cards when threatened with a 311 call. For all its warts the T&LC actually polices driver complaints pretty hard.

mmcclure 12y ago

I gotta say, I'm not really seeing the creepy / cringey / evil / whatever-else here... Anyone (especially the HN crowd) should know they have the data, and if you think they're not carefully analyzing it behind the scenes (like every other tech company who has your data), I've got things to sell you. I personally think a tiny peek like this into the data, much like the usage posts that OKCupid, YouPorn, and others give, is neat.

sillysaurus3 12y ago
Yeah, the blog post seems fine minus the last sentence. And if they'd simply removed the last sentence, I doubt anyone would have noticed. The Streisand effect is so well-known that I'm surprised anyone would delete a blog post nowadays. EDIT: I actually hadn't read the blog post in detail until now, which was more than a little dumb. I thought it was just an analysis of rides along with some neat heatmap images. I didn't realize it was about sexual datapoints.
- jasonm23 12y ago
  So well known, much like the cycle of violence... And yet.
striking 12y ago
The problem here (for me personally, at least) is that Uber is not in the business of selling dates/"encounters" and that people don't expect a ridesharing company to go right for the sexual data. Even OKCupid is straddling the line here with http://blog.okcupid.com/index.php/we-experiment-on-human-beings/ http://blog.okcupid.com/index.php/we-experiment-on-human-bei... noting that: To test this, we took pairs of bad matches (actual 30% match) and told them they were exceptionally good for each other (displaying a 90% match.) That's really not something people like having done to them. And the "HN crowd" shouldn't have an expectation of privacy and decency in data? Of course they're analyzing data, but it's really the viewpoint from which they do it that is unsettling. OKCupid says "no, duh, we're unethical. Deal with it." Uber says "Check it out! We drew a line between social security checks and prostitution!" (as waterlesscloud notes at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8644138 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8644138 ) There are a million more beneficial ways that people could be using the data. Fighting hunger, poverty, illiteracy, etc., to me, is a "good" use of Big Data. Looking at sexual habits (when you're not selling sex) or openly manipulating people to get data is, to me, a "bad" use.

EvanL 12y ago

I think it's a lot of fun and they pulled some interesting data from it. There are far more pressing concerns in the world right now, people have sex sometimes NBD.

joshvm 12y ago

Curious to see how companies deal with this kind of data because, ignoring the creep-factor, it is thoroughly interesting to see these sort of patterns emerge and the only way you can find out this kind of stuff is to track people. It's the actions of the unscrupulous minority that ruin this for the rest of us. I personally believe that most of the time when companies say "We simply aren't that interested in you." they're probably telling the truth. Stats is pointless if you look at single points. It only takes one person to snoop on an ex or to blow everything up. Unfortunately you have to mitigate that risk, but proper database sanitisation before handing over to the analysts should be sufficient. Provided there is no overlap between the sensitive database and the one the analysts have access to there shouldn't be a problem. I guess it's a side effect of becoming 'big' that you can no longer run these kind of public posts without looking extremely unprofessional.

yuhong 12y ago
I guess it's a side effect of becoming 'big' that you can no longer run these kind of public posts without looking extremely unprofessional. Does it really matter these days?

jpeg_hero 12y ago

blog article was 2.5 yrs ago, they were pulling out all the stops to get traction. now they have critical mass they can transition into "full boring corp speak" HN don't throw stones, what boundaries are pushing to get traction right now?

teacup50 12y ago
> HN don't throw stones, what boundaries are pushing to get traction right now? We're not pushing ethical boundaries.
tripzilch 12y ago
Published 2.5 years ago, removed in the past couple of days, after recent events. It's not like they've grown up over the years, it's that they got called on it.

sp332 12y ago

Ahem https://archive.org/donate https://archive.org/donate

almost_usual 12y ago

"You people are fascinating." Is this data fascinating? I guess the time of year patterns and holiday anomalies are interesting but aside from that this behavior seems obvious?

leeber 12y ago

Comparing Uber to OKCupid is ridiculous. OKCupid is a dating website which deliberately branded themselves as further on the "edgy" and "hookup" side of dating websites. Then you have POF somewhere in the middle, with eHarmony way on the other side, quite opposite of OKCupid. I'm not sure why Uber would want to put themselves anywhere on that same scale (i.e. aligning your brand with notions of sex and one night stands). There's a time and a place for everything, and for edgy data analysis like this -- that "place" is edgy dating websites who want to be known for hooking up. It's unprofessional and out of line with their brand image, obviously why the post got deleted. IMO this further validates all the bad press the media has been publishing about Uber.

leeber 12y ago

One more thing-- Would google publish data that shows how searches for porn spike during different times of the day or times of the year, as if it's some "cool and hip and edgy!" insight? I don't think so. And for the same reason they don't (whatever reason that is), it would probably also be wise for Uber not to post stuff like this. I really don't care, nor am I offended. I'm just speculating that Uber doesn't have the brightest team of execs and still have a lot of "growing up" to do.

nathanb 12y ago
This is actually a really good point. Google have been fighting a public relations war for a long time now to not appear creepy or stalkerish. I can think of few things they could blog about to make people consider not using Google more than "we know when you're looking for porn". Uber have not (yet?) been widely called out as being creepy the way Google have. But Uber have data that can be every bit as personal as your search history, and posts like these make it obvious that people at Uber are thinking hard about putting those data to use. There's a lot lurking under what at first glance appears to be merely a poorly-considered sophomorish post.

pistle 12y ago

So they blog about it in aggregate. It's not like they would know exactly who each of those riders were and would think about using that data for anything than the lulz. I'm sure this sort of data wouldn't be interesting for social engineering purposes in the hands of 'others' as well.

bricestacey 12y ago

The Boston anomaly and map is interesting. The requirements are a trip from 10pm-4am and a trip again 4-6 hours later. However, due to the MBTA shutting down around 12:30am and bars closing at 2am the criteria captures just about any partygoer. So if you took an uber to some bar/club/friends at 10-11pm and again after 2am when all bars or the T is closed, you're likely counted. I doubt this represents customers having one night stands and is likely just a heat map. This is further explained by the small pocket in Somerville that is not accessible by the train, but by bus where people may opt for an uber. That's not to say that there are no rides of glory or whatever the hell kids call it today.

djtriptych 12y ago

Anyone know what they used for the map visualizations? They're beautiful...

mgalka 12y ago

It is a bit unsettling that this information is out there, but I agree that it is fairly obvious that they have this data. And as long as they are not exposing the individuals, I don't see it as irresponsible to publish something like this. There was a related story published recently, NYC Taxicab Dataset Exposes Strip Club Johns and Celebrity Trips http://research.neustar.biz/2014/09/15/riding-with-the-stars-passenger-privacy-in-the-nyc-taxicab-dataset/ http://research.neustar.biz/2014/09/15/riding-with-the-stars...