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New Oculus Rift dev kit goes on sale for $350 today, likely ships in July
- Arjuna 13y agoAwesome news... on a related note, John Carmack had a couple of recent, Sony-related Tweets with regard to their Project Morpheus announcement: "Trivia: I had suggested to Sony that they try to hire Palmer Luckey before the Oculus kick starter." [1] "Calibrate PS4 VR expectations: a game that ran 60 fps on PS3 could be done in VR (stereo 1080 MSAA low latency 60 fps) on PS4." [2] [1] https://twitter.com/ID_AA_Carmack/status/446122463747776512 https://twitter.com/ID_AA_Carmack/status/446122463747776512 [2] https://twitter.com/ID_AA_Carmack/status/446271995668217857 https://twitter.com/ID_AA_Carmack/status/446271995668217857
- alexeisadeski3 13y agoHis second tweet makes an excellent point...
- mortenjorck 13y agoCould anyone with more background elaborate on what you think Carmack means with the second tweet? The PS4 already outputs 1080p with (varying algorithms of) antialiasing for several of its launch titles. I'd expect some rendering pipeline shortcuts to cut down on the latency that some operations incur and to achieve a constant 60 FPS, but a generational drop in graphical fidelity seems steep.
- alayne 13y agoHow are you going to push twice as many pixels without some quality tradeoff?
- mortenjorck 13y agoThat's just it, though. It's the exact same number of pixels. It's a single 1080p screen divided in two.
- higherpurpose 13y agoYou lose some performance with V-sync, which is necessary.
- mehwoot 13y agoNumber of pixels isn't the primary cost of rendering, unless you are using ray tracing.
- moistgorilla 13y agoyou are rendering from two different angles. its not the same as taking one rendered frame and cutting it in half
- ijk 13y agoCarmack has written a lot detailed information about the latency problem, which is much more demanding for VR, and about how to mitigate it: http://www.altdevblogaday.com/2013/02/22/latency-mitigation-strategies/ http://www.altdevblogaday.com/2013/02/22/latency-mitigation-...
- sparky 13y agoThe "stereo" part likely adds significant work (up to 2x), since you're rendering from two points of view.
- necubi 13y agoStereo rendering requires rendering the scene twice, once for each eye. Off the bat, this is almost twice as computationally intensive as rendering it once.
- mortenjorck 13y agoIt's rendering it twice, but at only half the resolution. Thinking about this more, the closest analog to stereo rendering would seem to be games with a split-screen mode. Which, in my experience, often does entail a performance hit (though certainly not a generation-sized one). My guess is that how much a second viewport affects performance is highly engine-dependent. Ironically, the one game I remember having the biggest delta from single-screen to split-screen is the Dreamcast version of Quake III: I distinctly recall the sharp drop in poly-count on the otherwise curvy rocket launcher.
- modeless 13y agoRendering the scene twice has overhead, so it would take extra time even if it was the same number of pixels total. But that's far from the only reason VR requires more power. Due to the distortion caused by the lenses the scene must be rendered at about 1.4x the normal resolution. Then there's a warping step that performs the inverse of the lens distortion, which is an additional cost. Also, good VR requires rendering at 90 Hz, not 60 Hz, so that's another 1.5x. Furthermore, frame tearing artifacts and FPS hiccups are much worse in VR, so you need extra headroom to eliminate them even in worst-case scenarios.
- sbierwagen 13y agoAlso, good VR requires rendering at 90 Hz The DK2 can only do 75 Hz. Anything more than that is wasted.
- modeless 13y agoDK2 isn't good enough. That's why it isn't the consumer version already. Palmer has said in interviews that the consumer version will be higher resolution and higher frame rate. The higher frame rate is required to enable low enough persistence without flickering.
- ekianjo 13y agoMany games on PS4 do NOT run at full 1080p resolution, they are rendered at lower resolution and upscaled. And on top of that, several games on PS4 do not run either at 60 fps. Performance wise, the new consoles are not THAT great, that's why the Occulus Rift team has been specifically said the new consoles will not be good enough for where they want to take VR.
- dm2 13y agoDoes the latest versions make people sick after prolonged use? How similar does it feel to looking at real far away objects? Is it easy to tell it's not 3D and the screen is flat? If I tied a passed out "friend" up and put on the Oculus Rift glasses and played a movie of them being thrown out of a helicopter from 1st person, would they be able to tell that it was fake or is there a perceived feeling of it being real?
- nefasti 13y agoThat is some sick thoughts you have there.
- deleted 13y ago[deleted]
- dm2 13y agoIt's just a thought experiment to gather some information. How would you better word that statement to get the same information back? One of the keys is that the person wearing the goggles doesn't know they are wearing goggles and is in a panicked and rushed scenario with lots going through his head so that they don't have time to consider, "Wait, did someone put a virtual reality device on my head?". Also because I realize that bumping into things and a video moving when all other senses are saying something different is happening would be clues that it would be easy to guess you are possibly in a simulation, being tied up takes away this freedom of movement (and is safer than drugs that paralyze) so I just made up a random scenario that was slightly humorous and anyone could easily imagine. I do hope that nobody actually tries that, it would be funny but could be considered torture. I've heard of the media blacking out things willingly because they do not want people copying it, it would be an interesting article if anyone wants to research that stuff, not sure if that's ethical or not though.
- itcmcgrath 13y agoI got the chance to play with it a few weeks ago, along with several others in our office. 1) It didn't make any of us sick, but I could see how it still would for users, particular if they didn't try to move their body in roughly the same direction as they would if it was IRL. If you have ever sat in a vehicle and watched the outside via a mirror - it's like that. 2) For me, while it was immersive (we had several users scream at things and dance around), it is still nothing like real vision. It still gives you one real focal point (or lack of one at all), which immediately makes it different from real life vision - particularly over long distances. 3) Unlikely. It would probably severely freak them out. Perhaps the rapidness of it would leave enough confusion that they worked it out, but it is still obvious it is computer generated graphics. See the focal issue above as an example. Having said that, it was amazingly fun and I wish I had one now. I'd love to experiment with a 'Virtual Programming' environment. I'll leave what that means as an exercise for the reader :)
- kjhughes 13y agoFresh new Oculus Rift Development Kit 2 FAQ is here: https://support.oculusvr.com/hc/en-us/articles/201835987 https://support.oculusvr.com/hc/en-us/articles/201835987 Here's an excerpt: Q: What is the Oculus Rift Development Kit 2, its features, and what does it come with? A: The Oculus Rift Development Kit 2 (DK2) is a development kit meant for developers that want to create virtual reality content for the upcoming consumer version of the Oculus Rift. New features: - Positional Tracking - Low Persistence OLED Display - Built-In Latency Tester What’s included: [...]
- deleted 13y ago[deleted]
- stickydink 13y agoNo doubt it's going to be fantastic. I used my DK1 to death, tried every demo I could. Palmer is a pretty frequent poster on Reddit (they even got an early DK2-order heads up, before the e-mail went out), and it became fairly obvious a big announcement was coming at GDC. On that, offloaded my DK1 for $500 here in the UK just last week. The positional tracking and the low-persistency display have what we've all been screaming for, and IMO is what's made, most people I've seen, feel sick.
- notastartup 13y agoso how many % off is the sale?
- freehunter 13y agoI can see the confusion of "on sale" versus "for sale", but they're both commonly used terms to represent the ability to purchase.
- plainhold 13y agoTested.com got their hands on one at GDC 2014. They interviewd Nate Mitchell and did a short review in this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4d3Wli7s6KY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4d3Wli7s6KY
- 31reasons 13y agoDo you guys think the consumer version will launch this year or in 2015 ?
- marknutter 13y agoAll signs are pointing to 2015.
- icpmacdo 13y ago2015 would make sense. People that really want it can get it now and regular consumers will have there socks blown off when/if the gen 3 comes as a consumer version.
- 31reasons 13y agoI hope so! I really want to get the Dev Kit but don't want to spend that much money if consumer version is released in just couple of months after that.
- edgarallenbro 13y agoYeah, it will definitely be better off being released well after its had time to have been polished and, you know, has games
- deleted 13y ago[deleted]
- higherpurpose 13y agoMy guess is mid to late 2015.
- sixothree 13y agoAt SXSW interactive there was the suggestion of 18-20 months.
- morsch 13y agoPlus 55 USD shipping and about 80 USD VAT when shipping to Germany -- ouch.
- TillE 13y agoNot too bad if you have any remotely serious plans of developing for it. Personally, I'll be waiting for the second generation public release before seeing how my badly unbalanced far-sighted vision handles the experience. I'm happy to give them plenty of time to sort out all the little problems and upgrade the hardware.
- MartinMcGirk 13y agoI'm in the UK and I had to pay $35 shipping and $77 Tax, bringing my total order to $462 or about £277.89. I only have a hobbyist/tinkerers interest in developing for anything for this, but I figure that (in my opinion) the Rift is the most exciting piece of technology out right now and I'd love to have a play about and see what I could achieve with it. Also, I've never even so much as tried any VR before, so I reckon the price is cheap for the chance to experience it and see what it's all about. It might be a total let down - and I'm ready for that, but at < £300 I figure it's worth a punt.
- pretz 13y agoI'm being quoted $22 shipping within the US. Seems really excessive.
- mladenkovacevic 13y ago$55 USD for Ontario, Canada
- Kiro 13y agoAm I the only one who thinks the motion sickness is something good? Like, "it feels so real that you get motion sickness" and that the new version feels less realistic. I hope I'm wrong though!
- zemo 13y agoit sounds like you haven't used an Oculus. There's nothing fun about VR sickness; it just makes you know that you're not really there.
- maaku 13y agoThe vertigo isn't because it feels so real, but because it doesn't, and your brain knows the difference.
- shawabawa3 13y agoI'm pretty sure the motion sickness is caused by conflict between what you see and how your brain knows your head is moving. Even a slight delay between your head moving and eyes seeing a reaction can cause nausea
- JD557 13y agoThe motion sickness is not just because it looks real, it's because of the small little mistakes, such as high persistence and latency. Imagine that every time you move your head, the image not only takes time to appear, but also is a little blured. It's kind of simmilar to being a little drunk, but sober, so the effect is really awkward.
- th0ma5 13y agoRecently read a great working theory of motion sickness... when your brain can't reconcile your sense of "down" or motion via your ear and your body orientation with your vision's perception of down or motion, then your brain thinks one or the other is hallucinating because of something you ate, and that's why you have a nauseous reaction, to expel the poison.
- njharman 13y agoI don't get motion sickness moving through the real world, do you? Should have that checked out. There for motion sickness in a virtual world does not seem more real.
- alanpca 13y agoAnyone successful in using paypal checkout? Failing for me.
- notproductive 13y agoThis is one of those rare moments where reading hacker news is not just worth while but makes me really really happy. I ordered mine!
- mrfusion 13y agoAny idea why they charge sales tax? (just curious)
- jxf 13y agoThey're probably legally required to, if they have a nexus of business in the state you're buying from.
- yeukhon 13y agoSome companies cover sales tax for their customers or they do some trick to avoid sales tax, some don't. Some states require sales tax over online order. See http://www.amazon.com/gp/help/customer/display.html?nodeId=468512 http://www.amazon.com/gp/help/customer/display.html?nodeId=4...
- hydralist 13y agoany particular languages that you should be good at to deal with this dev kit? my dad codes a lot in c/c++, i want to buy him this as a surprise gift
- metastew 13y agoIf I recall correctly, a devkit comes with a limited license key (1 year?) for Unity 3D. That was the case for DK1.
- daheza 13y agoFrom the FAQ: https://support.oculusvr.com/hc/en-us/articles/201835987 https://support.oculusvr.com/hc/en-us/articles/201835987 Q: I received a Unity Pro Trial code with my purchase of the original Oculus Rift Development Kit. Will I receive another code after my purchase of Oculus Rift Development Kit 2? A: There are no plans to offer a Unity Pro Trial code with Oculus Rift Development Kit 2 purchases at this time.
- corysama 13y agoThe Oculus SDK is C++, but I'm sure there are bindings for many languages. Probably the easiest way to get started is with C# in Unity. If anyone is feeling adventurous, you can even access it in JavaScript! https://github.com/DanAndersen/cupola https://github.com/DanAndersen/cupola
- Crito 13y ago> "you now connect the headset to your computer using a single cable that includes an HDMI and USB connection" My computer only has a mini-displayport port. Does anybody know if a minidp->hdmi adapter would be suitable for this HDMI/USB pairing?
- amelim 13y agoI was able to get the DK1 working using a hdmi -> regular displayport adapter for my Thinkpad X220 on Ubuntu 13.04
- mathgorges 13y agoI haven't had any problems connecting my DK1 to my macbook with a mini display port -> adapter.
- samnm 13y agoI assume this means there is one cable that splits in to an HDMI and USB connector. It will work with any HDMI adaptors.
- mikeash 13y agoI can't find anything that definitively states it, but from how it's worded it sounds like it's a single cable that just has both HDMI and USB connectors on the end, not some sort of weird custom connector that tries to send both over the same set of pins.
- incision 13y agoGenerally not an early adopter, but after backing, using and being blown away by the original kit this was an easy decision. Interestingly, the checkout page reflected my Oculus Store Credit discount, but the confirmation email I received did not. Can't wait.
- aculver 13y agoI can't help but laugh with glee a little when watching the video at http://www.oculusvr.com/dk2/ http://www.oculusvr.com/dk2/ , specifically at the part where John Carmack comes on. I'm still so excited that he joined Oculus VR. When I see him in a video like this, it's like a giant "100% Guaranteed" stamp that this whole thing is going to eventually be everything we could possibly hope for.
- doorhammer 13y agoAny reservations I would have had about the rift are totally destroyed by the fact that Carmack is on the team. I held off on the first Dev kit, mostly because I didn't have a decent gaming rig, and the lower resolutions, but I just bought a new machine, and I couldn't give them my money fast enough to get in on the Dev Kit 2
- nacs 13y agoI had a similar reaction. They say in the video that they brought together the "best developers in the industry" which sounds like generic marketing embellishment until they cut to Carmack. Hard to argue that statement at that point.
- techwatching 13y agoDev Kit in the news: http://techwatching.com/page.php?i=22975 http://techwatching.com/page.php?i=22975 vs Sony: http://techwatching.com/page.php?i=22780 http://techwatching.com/page.php?i=22780 Oculus' focus is on latency; Sony's looks like its on packaging. At least Sony has cut its lead time on cloning other's products, compared to Sony's "Move" following the Wii.
- good_guy 13y agosanitize GET variable!
- jtms 13y agoOrdered! Being as this is a developer kit and I am a developer I guess I better develop something for it :-) Just super happy to be getting my hands on one... I think this thing is going to change the world.
- tibbon 13y agoA (likely terrible) idea that just occurred to me- How cool would it be to use a VR headset to help you navigate a vehicle? Yes, I mean to say wearing this while driving essentially. Given a fast/good enough sensor/input system, you could scan your environment, know the dimensions of your vehicle (I'm mainly thinking boats and huge trucks here) and be able to "see through" massive blind spots on your vehicle to enable for tighter maneuvering. Imagine a boat. Sometimes with a large enough boat it can be hard to see all around it. And frankly, its almost impossible to see under it. But given depth finding/scanning and sensors, you could make it so you could see the virtual hull of the boat and anything under the water, making navigating through areas with dangerous stumps or other things under the water much easier. Anyway, this is kinda silly... but neat to think about. Also, ordered one :)
- Crito 13y agoMy understanding is that this "see through the vehicle" capability is built into at least some helmet-HUD/Helicopter combinations that the military has. If it suffices for an attack helicopter, I'd say that the idea probably has serious potential for automobiles as well. I wouldn't expect to see it come to standard consumer cars yet, but for commercial drivers (particularly truck drivers who have massive blindspots) this could be invaluable. Imagine being able to see through the back of your box truck while backing up!
- tibbon 13y agoYep, that's pretty much what I'm thinking. It started all with thinking how terrible of an idea it would be to wear this while motorcycling... Someone at Google with access to one of the self driving cars should see what this would 'look like' from a passenger perspective with the data.
- 3lit3H4ck3r 13y agoFeasible to cross dev with glass? Hmmm... I think I have a new project to work on!
- DonGateley 13y agoIt's beyond commendable that Palmer et.al. seem to have no problem at all employing people smarter than he is wherever they can be found and enticed away from what they are doing. I've gotta wonder, though, if he's looking up at everyone around him and seeing not only stellar talent but stellar ambition and ego how he'll stay on top of it. I've got a DK1 and had a whole lot of fun with it despite its laughable resolution but as much as I want to play with the DK2 and follow application development (which is all I'm capable of) I'm going to await the store shelf version. I think. :-)
- pjspycha 13y agoI don't know if you are praising Luckey or calling him just a figurehead. Don't underestimate his intelligence, he is a really smart guy.
- DonGateley 13y agoPraising, for sure. I was afraid my comment might be taken as an underestimation. Not so, I'm just blown away by the extraordinarily accomplished people he has brought on board and know that, smart though he may be, many of them have accrued far more impressive technical track records. His early work demonstrated potential with contemporary, off the shelf technology along with a visionary template. His growing team is taking it so much further. I consider that kind of talent acquisition and management a form of genius. I just expect it to be a really tough herd to manage in a collective fashion and for it to get increasingly difficult as time makes room for the inevitable ego expansions and the elbowing for power, influence and credit. But then it also appears that he has placed some very alpha managers at the top of the executive team.
- JanezStupar 13y agoThis is the moment I have been waiting for, for more than a year!!!
- alexeisadeski3 13y agoAny info as to what the input lag on the latest dev kit is?
- Pxtl 13y agoMy dream device: Take the Razer Edge - a little 10" gaming tablet. Create a keyboard peripheral that can be attached to the Edge at any angle - it can be used as a laptop or a tablet, or: Put the keyboard next to the tablet, laid flat. Then emulate a mouse-input with the touchscreen - a full 10" mouse-pad-like area for your fingers to simulate a mouse - your middle-finger is the mouse-position and you can l-click and r-click with your ring and index fingers a-la magic trackpad. Boom, we've got a lapboard keyboard/mouse. Then use the Rift with that. The ultimate portable PC gaming experience.
- bambam12897 13y agoSo is selling stuff before it actually exists the new norm? I get it when you have a kick-starter, but when you're already established doesn't it come off as a bit shady and scummy? Are they low on money and desperately need to cash-in asap? Are they worried their product will be poorly reviewed b/c they aren't confident in the quality - so they're trying to lock-in buyers? EDIT: I'm just putting out the question "Why do they have a preorder system? What's the rational behind it? Why just announce it when it's available?" Preorders are a way of locking in buyers. You can trick a few people into buying it, that may have otherwise not bought it when it was actually released (maybe due to negative reviews, or a change in their financial position). Except... why would you ever want to do that with developers? So why are they trying to do that? I don't get it
- deelowe 13y agoIt's a dev kit. Things have always been done this way. Nintendo, Sony, and Microsoft do it too. It just typically costs thousands of dollars and you have to already have a business relationship with them. So you rarely hear about it. Most PC guys hate this model, hence this... Example: http://www.retrotrader.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=2667&osCsid=d9ba8afc8ac3dd9f1887ad92a83d2a1a http://www.retrotrader.com/catalog/product_info.php?products... If consumers want to be dumb and ignore everything that states very clearly that this is a product for developers, that's their business.
- weaksauce 13y agothey are only taking a deposit for 50 bucks and they recently got a lot of money from a VC. You don't call apple out on preordering the latest iPhone and I see this as about the same.
- chc 13y agoWhen you're manufacturing things, preorders can also be helpful to calculate the size of your initial run. (I don't know if this is why Oculus is doing it, but they wouldn't be the first.)
- JanezStupar 13y agoWhy would you bitch about it? Why couldn't you wait until it becomes available and then decide if you want to buy it? And yes, selling things before they actually exist is the new norm for a while now. I hope you are not too confused since you got out of your 1990s time capsule. Edit: And as for why would they take preorders... Because they can, because people are willing to throw money at them. Last september preorder queue was 50k people deep if you wanted to get in line. They would be mad not to take preorders as it helps them keep costs down (expected inventory, it is easier to get loan from a bank if you have N widgets already sold,...).
- stesch 13y agoI guess a lot of people won't buy a VR system if they get forced to set up a camera for it.
- tsenkov 13y agoHas anyone used it for coding?
- atom-morgan 13y agoI was just thinking about this the other day. How weird would it be to have a technical interview for a job where you and the employer both hook up via OR, walk up to a virtual computer, and start coding at a computer inside the game? Things are about to get crazy.
- Cacti 13y agoI'm interesting in this too. My guess is you'd really need good, light, haptic gloves to make this work... certainly you will need the same sort of precision and physical feedback you have now with a physical keyboard, even if you're not primarily using it for traditional typing.
- throwaway2048 13y agowhy not just use a real keyboard?
- grandmaster789 13y agoThe DK1's resolution is way too low for reading large amounts of text, and I'm somewhat skeptical that the DK2 is good enough to be used as a monitor replacement. Different applications that place less emphasis on text may be a better fit for VR - think photoshop and autocad for a start.
- pjspycha 13y agoThis. There is an article by Michael Abrash that goes into good detail about this: http://blogs.valvesoftware.com/abrash/when-it-comes-to-resolution-its-all-relative/ http://blogs.valvesoftware.com/abrash/when-it-comes-to-resol... quoted: "Given which, the obvious question is: how high does VR resolution need to go before it’s good enough? I don’t know what would be ideal, but getting to parity with monitors in terms of pixel density seems like a reasonable target. Given a 90-degree field of view in both directions, 4K-by-4K resolution would be close to achieving that, and 8K-by-8K would exceed it."
- onmydesk 13y agoOculus, pah! http://venturebeat.com/2014/02/02/technical-illusions-aims-for-low-cost-augmented-reality-glasses-with-castar-interview/ http://venturebeat.com/2014/02/02/technical-illusions-aims-f...
- aidenn0 13y ago> Fortunately, Gabe [Newell, Valve's managing director] just let us have it all. It wasn’t exactly easy to get it past the lawyers, but we were able to negotiate, free and clear, all the technology That was really nice. Not many companies would do that.
- pasbesoin 13y agoI don't know what the center of gravity is for that thing, but at a glance, what about the idea of less (or less tight) strap, more counter-weight on the back? P.S. Although that would represent more mass to accelerate/decelerate with head movements...
- berberous 13y agoMaybe a stupid question, but: I'm not a game dev nor even a gamer, but I kind of want to buy a dev kit. How well will it work with a rMBP, and are there lots of fun demos already available?
- varkson 13y agoJudging from my experience with the dev kit, even on my gaming rig there was a little bit of trouble running some of the games fast enough. Your machine needs to be capable of running your game at 1080p 60fps. Not sure how the rMBP stacks up, but for most of the demos you should be able to play on low. I found the best demos were more about an experience then games. The novelty wears off after a while, but I think when the real games come out, that's when things are going to get interesting.
- Quaro 13y agoThere are tons of fantastic demos and experiments out there already, more than I ever thought would be at this point. The retina mac book will be passable but will have trouble maintaining 60 fps with many of them.
- brador 13y agoWhat's this missing that the consumer version will have?
- jibberia 13y agoDoes anybody have experience using the Rift with the Ibex window manager[1] (esp. on OS X)? Or another similar solution? I'm very interested in using it as a gigantic monitor! [1] http://hwahba.com/ibex/ http://hwahba.com/ibex/
- nicpottier 13y agoFor those that have the first dev kit, how appropriate is this for a curious engineer who wants to play with Alpha titles? It is hard for me to imagine a scenario where I would actually have the time to develop something, but man, playing with it seems well worth $350. Am I going to be disappointed in what is available?
- axefrog 13y agoI think you'll find a large proportion of people who have ordered the dev kit have done so just for a taste of what's to come. And I'm sure OculusVR don't mind at all because the sales generate additional revenue and PR without all of the responsibility that comes with shipping a consumer product.
- alexeisadeski3 13y agoIs DK2 shipping in July or consumer? Not entirely clear.
- MartinMcGirk 13y agoDK2 is expected to start shipping in July, no date has been set for consumer release but people seem to expect a consumer product release date either at the very end of this year or sometime in 2015. Any dates around the consumer product release date is pure speculation at this point though.