9 ms·

I have a theory that software drives people insane

468 points by rglover 8d ago

JohnMakin 8d ago
> Not in the "wash your hands every thirty minutes like Howard Hughes" kind of way, Hold on, this isn't that crazy in today's day and age. I used to wash my hands basically only when using the restroom or before eating. Since the pandemic though, I started upping that a lot (not every 30 minutes, but pretty frequently) and since then almost never get sick.
- hackingonempty 8d ago
  The Cochrane review of "physical interventions to interrupt or reduce the spread of respiratory viruses" that infamously does not find a significant effect for masking does find significant effects for hand washing.
  - disgruntledphd2 8d ago
    It's worth noting that Cochrane reviews are normally the minimal effect sizes you'll see, as they pull in every study and hate self reported measures. Don't get me wrong, they're my first port of call (mostly for the funnel plots), but they're one source, with their own biases.
  - gowld 8d ago
    Even that is overselling it: https://www.cochranelibrary.com/cdsr/doi/10.1002/14651858.CD006207.pub6/full https://www.cochranelibrary.com/cdsr/doi/10.1002/14651858.CD... > Key messages > We are uncertain whether wearing masks or N95/P2 respirators helps to slow the spread of respiratory viruses based on the studies we assessed. > Hand hygiene programmes may help to slow the spread of respiratory viruses. > There is uncertainty about the effects of face masks. The low to moderate certainty of evidence means our confidence in the effect estimate is limited, and that the true effect may be different from the observed estimate of the effect. > Hand hygiene is likely to modestly reduce the burden of respiratory illness, and although this effect was also present when ILI [influenza-like illnesses] and laboratory‐confirmed influenza were analysed separately, it was not found to be a significant difference for the latter two outcomes. > Our confidence in these results is generally low to moderate for the subjective outcomes related to respiratory illness, but moderate for the more precisely defined laboratory‐confirmed respiratory virus infection, related to masks and N95/P2 respirators. > Relatively low numbers of people followed the guidance about wearing masks or about hand hygiene, which may have affected the results of the studies.
- EvanAnderson 8d ago
  Anecdote: During the pandemic I added washing my hands every time I get back to my office building (and specifically after interacting with surfaces the public interacts with) to my usual hand washing (after bathrooms and before eating, just like you). I keep a towel in my hand for any door handles between the restroom and my office door. Since doing this I feel like I've noticed fewer illnesses, too.
- s_dev 8d ago
  https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49608023 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49608023 Not arguing one way or the other just brining up the last Hacker News conversation where it was established that dirty hands are good for you.
- mathisfun123 8d ago
  This is exactly why I think this article is wrong: it starts with a false premise that devs are sane to begin with (not because you're right or wrong re hand washing but because this is an insane thing to focus on from the article).
- tjwebbnorfolk 8d ago
  > in today's day and age The human world today is freer of pathogens than at any point in all history.
deleted 8d ago
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bob1029 8d ago
Software development untethered from the practical realities of the customer / user is what drives people insane. When developers are required to interact with the customer on a regular basis, the freewheeling effects described in this article are damped massively. The potential for insanity goes off the charts when the development team is siloed away in solitary confinement and the only interactions with the client occur via some prison guard known as "project manager" sliding notes under the door. Working with the customer sometimes sucks. Just like exercise and eating vegetables sometimes suck. It's a temporary unhappiness that keeps us grounded in reality.
- mediaman 8d ago
  Agreed. I find it really fun to work with customers. It keeps you focused on real problems. And there are so many problems in 'boring' industries that need solving. Just a ridiculous number. There's so much bad software out there, or things being done manually, still now so many decades into the industry. But you have to be willing to break out of the bubble, including getting on a plane, and I see very few people being willing to do that.
- mschuster91 8d ago
  > The potential for insanity goes off the charts when the development team is siloed away in solitary confinement and the only interactions with the client occur via some prison guard known as "project manager" sliding notes under the door. But... but what would Project Managers do, then? Anyway the key thing for any software developer AND Project Managers to do is regularly work first level helpdesk.
  - AnimalMuppet 8d ago
    What would Project Managers do? Manage backlog. Set priorities. See that the one customer gripe from someone's eccentric old Uncle George does not re-architect the entire UI, no matter how fervently Uncle George believes in it. Do the same as the previous sentence, when "Uncle George" is in upper management.
- cosmic_cheese 8d ago
glitchc 8d ago
Beautifully written post and true on many levels. The art of software stopped being an art once large amounts of capital started creeping in. There are no signs that we're returning to sanity any time soon.
- hungryhobbit 8d ago
  Ok, I get how you might like the ideas there, but "beautifully written"?!? Really? The goal of writing is to communicate. That means saying what you mean to say ... and not filling paragraph after paragraph with pointless and redundant things you don't need to say. There is not an English teacher in this world who would argue that was even a well-written essay, let alone a beautifully-written one.
randusername 8d ago
My observation is simply that tech leaders misinterpret rewards from the market in conquering some abstract representation of a facet of a domain with conquering the domain itself. Then they become egomaniacal. Did you conquer commercial real-estate ushering in the future of work and society, or did you build a handy scheduling app? Did you have a neat idea for an online community or did you revolutionize human connection?
- zug_zug 8d ago
  +1 . I think it takes a certain type of mental or emotional deficit to forfeit all of your free time and the majority stake in your company for funding for a tiny shot at hitting a grand-lam. "Not everything needs to be a platform". I remember a 10 person company that did translation dispatch for medical needs in California. And the CEO was insisting we needed to someday "become a platform."
  - deleted 8d ago
    [deleted]
  - Terr_ 8d ago
    Similar to "needs to be a platform" [0], another variant is "be a data company" where somehow the underpants gnomes will transform your moat of stored information into profit. [0] Read: "Needs to be pitch-able to investors as a magical 1000x growth unicorn."
    - fragmede 8d ago
      it's no longer a theory. google paid millions for spirit airlines' emails and internal messages to be used as training data for their AIs.
      - ambicapter 8d ago
        Google already had the machine, this was just feeding the machine. 99% of companies do not have this machinery in place and probably wouldn't know where to start.
jadbox 8d ago
As a founder of a few software startups, I agree with this. If I can give advice to other founders, remember than software is usually a means to an end, and for most users, they just want the bare bone essentials to work and work well. Everything else is nice-to-have-fluff that won't drive 99% of sales. The apps I pay for are simple and focus on a super basic interface. BookFusion and Libro.fm are great examples.
- icantevenhold 8d ago
  It’s interesting because my experience is inverse (b2b software) - the bloated shiny solution what actually doesnt work at all performs better in the market than the sober, unsexy solution that just works. Companies like Oracle or Microsoft are so massive not because they sell simple and focused products that work well; quite the opposite Might be different when you’re selling to endusers
  - ravikapoor101 8d ago
    Oracle (and SAP and IBM) are not in the business of building software, they are in the business of never complete software, instead stretch the project as far as you can and bill to death.
  - mitxela 7d ago
    Oracle and Microsoft are in the contracting business, and software is just an excuse for them to get contracts.
dvh 8d ago
> Everything becomes urgent because everything can move quickly I finally understand why I quit my previous job.
iamcalledrob 8d ago
> Leaving things alone is an underrated engineering skill. Truer words have never been spoken.
- AnimalMuppet 8d ago
  "It is often easier to not do something stupid than it is to do something smart."
- icantevenhold 8d ago
  It’s an underrated life skill and was discovered by Lao Tsé probably around 2500 years ago
dkarl 8d ago
The insanity the author is describing sounds like normal corporate BS to me. Everybody wants to "raise concerns," everybody is looking for an idea to take credit for, everybody has a reason your idea won't succeed. I'm pretty sure this is the same whether you're making software or advertising campaigns or plastic cups. I once tried to explain a pointless debate over the definitions of "acceptance testing" versus "regression testing" to a non-tech person, and they said that was the most relatable thing I'd ever told them about my job.
Apocryphon 8d ago
I’ve always thought that this principle explains all sorts of cultural phenomena, from the tech industry having a poorer work-balance compared to others (the pace of development is only limited by how many hours you must sleep!) and programmers seemingly having worse engineer’s disease than in other disciplines (if software can do anything and know everything, how could we, the lever-makers, be any less than our creations?).
eazel7 8d ago
windows adbloat and 15 corporate software policies and scanners drive people insane
FLeXMurphy 8d ago
It is not the software, it is the internet. Something Awful already had it figured out: The internet makes you stupid.
- add-sub-mul-div 8d ago
  And they even figured that out before Cambridge Analytica happened.
- arthurfirst 8d ago
  It makes a lot of people dumber -- they doom scroll, gossip, play childrens games, and on the high end post cat memes. But it's a tool like any other and the results depend on the user. For those with eyes to see and ears to hear it is (was) the Library of Alexandria. The knowledge of the world unfiltered without gate keeper trolls deciding what you can see and learn. Getting on the internet in 1993 completely changed my life. Linux changed my life and without the internet there is no Linux. Before Linux you could not get a UNIX distro for less than $1000 USD which was a lot of money for me back then. Before Linux and Internet all that was available to consumers outside of big institutions was Windoze and Apple was already on life support. The internet and Linux opened an entire world to me and I never looked back. Everyone at the time said I was wasting my time and should be doing an MCSE LOL but those are people in the 90%... they will NEVER get it. Fast forward 4 years later I'm working in startups and leading dev teams and that was almost 30 years ago. I can imagine what my life would have been without the internet and I prefer how things worked out. So it did not make me dumber... but the filtered nannied corporate approved internet of 2026 -- that probably just makes anyone dumber.
  - my002 8d ago
    The Internet doesn't make people dumber any more than video games, rock music, picaresque novels, the printing press, or writing did. These kinds of arguments come around with every new technology and have always been fatuous.
    - mitxela 7d ago
hliyan 8d ago
I was about to post this thought on the latest "We're moving from tech/architecture X to Y" post on the HN front page today, but now I feel it belongs here. I was recently chatting with a friend about how we used to do so much more with so few developers: 20 years ago, we developed mission critical, real time software (trading systems) in C++ with team of a couple of dozen developers. The core trading kernel team was four people. An in-house distributed process orchestration tool (both front end and back end written in C++) were two guys. I myself once managed to produce an entire post-trade risk management system for futures contracts in a couple of months, working alone. Today, I see teams of 60-80 working on web and mobile applications where the vast majority of operations are CRUD, with some transaction/queue complexity at the extremities. I think the difference is tech churn. Back then, what few dependencies we had in terms of either runtime libraries or development time tools, were stable: the standard library, compiler, unix commands and bash scripts, and some internal libraries. Much of our time and focus went into figuring out the right algorithms and data structures, with coding coming in second. Very little time was spent on selecting, configuring, updating, rearchitecting or replacing tech stacks and tools.
- hankbond 8d ago
  yes but also people-churn/attrition was likely lower too. it can really hurt your career to stay in most organizations more than 2 years because very few places devote any meaningful resources to growing from within. if you want better opportunities and more comp it often requires moving companies.
- hermitShell 8d ago
  If you've not read Fred Brooks MMM, give it a shot. It seems like you're implying that teams of 60-80 developers should be expected to outperform teams of 12. This is simply not true. The most important feature of source code as a language is that it allows precise mindshare among close knit teams. It doesn't guarantee it, but it makes it possible for people to talk about the product at a level that is otherwise very difficult. A convenient side-effect of the source code is that it instructs the machine what to do. But instructing the machine was never the bottleneck, the essential difficulty of software development is in understanding what are the correct instructions to achieve some objective, not typing them out. The problem is that communication doesn't scale at all. Having just 3 developers with good alignment about mental models, best practices, and design direction is hard enough, and if you found the right three people at the right time with the right ideas, you could generate billions of dollars of value. Large monolithic teams on the order of 80 are a product of people in control not understanding how software development works, and how to make it work well.
aghilmort 8d ago
ya, almost every app is over-opinionated on design and only getting worse not better in most case, iOS 26 is perhaps the most egregious mass-market example thinking to this day afaik still can't change width of first column on Monday.com even tho they claim to replace spreadsheets and only js console will fix or Trello going the opposite direction of former CTO when any page specifically had sub-second load target. now many seconds, that insane auto markdown editor showing up on almost all input boxes except HN that can't disable no chatgpt i dont want automated bullets i wanted plaintext so can c/p etc.
w10-1 8d ago
I wanted the author to see how this relates elsewhere and identify the forces at work. The solution is not just "do only what's needed by the customer". There are emerging environments where the conditions don't force previously-rational decisions, and where assumptions no longer apply. New tools in the battlefields of yore, new beliefs and practices in cultures... The stunning march of compute hardware in the last 50 years has changed many such conditions. Those who work with new freedom - liberated from the strictures of old gods, able to harm enemies without putting themselves at risk, with the time freed from foraging to build - have to identify the new constraints and conditions at work. And sometimes to make the conditions that make for sanity: Solon got ancient Greece out of a stagnating pickle by getting the wealthy to release the poor from debtors' jails but sign them up for the military that could defend lands and trade routes, if they subjected themselves to land-owner self-government and the annual ostracism of one person who went too far. Capitalism used competitive markets to liberate but discipline business, but right now the scaling power of compute leads to winner-take-all, and the openness of the West is seeding closed systems (military or foreign) with the power to destroy the liberal governance that sustains it. In software we're stuck between Scylla and Charybdis: an Anthropic+OpenAI duopoly or Chinese control over the lifeblood of enterprise. If there were someone who in the large had structured the freedom of software to make its practitioners and stakeholders sane, they'd be a good candidate to steer us through this situation, so this freedom wouldn't drive us insane.
black_13 8d ago
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Terr_ 8d ago
Reminds me of this 2014 post "Programming Sucks" [0], which touches on some similar issues of getting disconnected from reality in a microcosm that always "ought" to be better than it is. > All programming teams are constructed by and of crazy people [...] > The destructive impact on the brain is demonstrated by the programming languages people write. [...] > All programmers are forcing their brains to do things brains were never meant to do in a situation they can never make better, ten to fifteen hours a day, five to seven days a week, and every one of them is slowly going mad. [0] https://www.stilldrinking.org/programming-sucks https://www.stilldrinking.org/programming-sucks
- eschneider 8d ago
  After doing this a few decades, one of the things I've discovered that, working 15 hours a day is insanely overrated. A shocking number of 'impossible' problems become quite easy if you just think about them lightly overnight.
pjerem 8d ago
Oh, Nice reading :)
FiddlerClamp 8d ago
Or, it's greasing the wheels of free-association until people skid out of control. And since the 'world' of the chat is mostly epistemologically closed (except for Web search), there's no absolute tether point. Everything's subjective, and self-confirming.
mococa 8d ago
I don’t know… People says that I eat ice cream using the forehead
bluegatty 8d ago
Well done and the author is just scratching the surface ...
ninju 8d ago
> A boring application that stores records in a database and lets people edit > them doesn't sound especially impressive, while a distributed event-driven > platform with a service mesh and realtime synchronization layer sounds like > you're building NORAD. Very well put
nilsherzig 8d ago
Pretty decent output, mind sharing the prompt and model used? I struggle getting text i enjoy reading https://www.pangram.com/history/5a4b90c6-0123-4f97-b50e-9c9066a4a238?ucc=QjpX0hxYnaS https://www.pangram.com/history/5a4b90c6-0123-4f97-b50e-9c90...
arthurfirst 8d ago
[flagged]
perlgeek 8d ago
When I read the title, my mind immediately jumped to something else: negativity. I've noticed that my own mind always searches for corner cases, error conditions and failure modes. This can be super helpful when planning new features (or explaining to stakeholders that certain conditions must be met first, when they want some new features), but when it extends to other things besides software, it can be psychologically unhealthy.
kerblang 8d ago
Would like to emphasize: Software is intangible. It fails to meet most standards of "what is real", because it exists entirely in the realm of symbols. You're at the edge of reality. To human instincts it seems like an unreal world without rules, so it unconsciously triggers all sorts of weird things, including a good bit of amoral behavior. Nasty things locked away in one's psyche come out to play.
anigbrowl 8d ago
It's not software; it's the fact that most managers/administrators are not software developers (although they may have some programming ability). so they stand in teh same relationto their development team as cusomers complaining to a manufacturer about the features on a physical product, and saying 'it should do this or that, it's an easy change to make' (because it's easy to imagine having it if you skip over the tedium of having to implement it). Of course sometimes the ask is justified and addresses some failing of the original spec, either through lack of ambition or excess ambition that harnessed a cargo container to a lawnmower engine. But most of the conflict the article describe stems from a combination of imagining the benefits of change with the unspoken assumption that implementation is just a matter of pushing a few more buttons.
GaryBluto 8d ago
I know this is slightly off-topic, but is washing your hands twice per hour really considered a Hughesian level of compulsiveness?
- fragmede 8d ago
  Depends on what you're doing. If you're at a keyboard and there's no reason to wash them, then yes. If you're in a kitchen with ingredients sticking to your fingers, that's not enough.
- throw-qqqqq 8d ago
  I know no mentally healthy people who wash hands ~32 times daily (16hours awake) - except if you work in a kitchen or as a doctor etc. For office work, it sounds excessive to me. I think most people only wash their hands after toilet visits and perhaps before eating (many don’t).
- tanseydavid 8d ago
  Twice an hour is not even Hughesian level of compulsiveness IIRC.
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cestith 8d ago
Is it software having this effect or management over software products? I don't see many academic or hobby software projects constantly changing what's important to them on a whim. It can be seen all the time in the software industry though.
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delichon 8d ago
"Drives people insane" is the interpretation of those with an external locus of control. For those with an internal locus of control it translates to "reveals character".
huurtehoog 8d ago
There is a symmetrical presumption in the minds of people that the software representation in their screens is both accurate and capable of altering reality when changed. This is very often violated, obviously, and people find it jarring. Another related problem is people will often take software at face value. When you have an inkling of what sort of dysfunction might be behind a certain buggy behavior it is much easier to cope both by finding workarounds, deciding to wait it out (my parents had an issue with some government database and I thought it suspiciously like some change propagation issue, told them to try again next week because I assumed some reconciliation on the weekend would solve it and it did) etc. But a lay person will see error messages and take it to mean some catastrophic bureaucratic issue with their data when it's most likely just poor quality software... I think the expectation that software is correct, accurate, and trustworthy, drives people up the wall when they are confronted with the reality of buggy and poorly implemented systems that they are required to use to function in society.
butlike 8d ago
I think there's some truth to this. All those decisions and interactions at your fingertips cause dopamine release, which in excess can cause things like psychosis, paranoia, or delusions.
- cindyllm 7d ago
  [dead]
einpoklum 8d ago
> Most software, when you strip away the branding and architecture diagrams, is remarkably boring. Lost me right there.
hypfer 8d ago
I feel like this post could've been either shorter or better structured. It explores a bunch of interesting ideas, but the way they're mushed together makes it taste a bit bland. I still don't really understand what exactly it was that this text wanted to tell me. A bunch of things? But also nothing. I can deduce what it I think was supposed to tell me (based on extrapolating patterns and most likely talking points), but it didn't necessarily do that. _Telling_ me I mean. Maybe leaning less into the relateable-ness would've helped there? Or just containing it better. __ I suppose there is a place for just stream of consciousness rambling (like this comment), but the post kinda came with the optics of "here's a statement", but then there's no real statement. So maybe that could also have been fixed with a "Here are some not necessarily fully coherent thoughts you might find interesting" disclaimer. Perhaps my mind is just not wired in the same way as the ones of the target audience, but if that is the case, then I am a bit offended by the blog naming itself "Graybeard". A bit too vibey feely "that is so me omg" for that. (The LLM I've consulted telling me that I'm just missing the point here kinda validates that hypothesis for me. Good for you then. May you all bond over this with your weird "emotional resonance" stuff. It seems to tickle the RLHF stuff just right.)
divs4real 8d ago
pulling levers is the new equivalent to pulling requests
phendrenad2 8d ago
This resonates with me. And I think I know why software is like this. It isn't software that drives people insane, it's money that drives people insane. Specifically the promise of money breaks people's brains. They see the unicorn companies turning junior engineers into overnight millionaires, and they start salivating. They start looking for The Way. The closest thing they find to The Way is a bunch of unicorns and FAANG companies that have gone before. They start looking for talismans and ceremonies that will bring them closer to The Way. Scrum, Agile, Kanban, scalability, "web scale", 12 Factor Methodology, microservices, etc. may be good ideas but they take on real power when they're a perceived path to fortune.
atoav 8d ago
A lot of it has to do with communications. The times I (as a programmer myself) have witnessed how companies we asked to write software tackled it was eye opening in a negative sense. As a freelancer my process involves a lot of observation, asking questions and planning. Usually when I go into the details more questions emerge and whom to ask better than the people who do exactly this daily? Sure sometimes their process is a bad abstraction, they chose because they did not knew better and thus not worth putting into software. But before you decide that you gotta ask whether there are reasons why it was done that way. I see my task as a programmer to make peoples lives easier, by finding elegant abstractions for their problems, that are at the same time, reliable, adjustable, encourage correctness, avoid problems and so on. Now most software companies I interacted with from the other side did none of the things. They rushed to gather the specs, asked some questions in the beginning and were out of the door to start way too fast, with some things they just assumed without confirming. Then crickets and then something half broken comes around that you need to beat into shape in an exhausting back and forth, where again you have to be the person with the questions. If it is exhausting for a person with software development experience to be your customer, how bad will it be for people who have no such experience. Now there are of course exceptions also in such companies, but in my experience that is mich rarer than it should be.
mawadev 8d ago
I'm starting to believe computer work and screens make me lose touch with reality and dissociate. I remember starting an apprenticeship as a dev in 2015 and I saw a guy like me, but 2 years in, with deep eye bags and he just smiled, didnt say anything and he looked extremely exhausted. Well 11 years later and here we are, we are all tethered to this mess
- GalaxyNova 7d ago
  This is why I hope to retire on a farm
kazinator 8d ago
> Moving the kitchen in software might look like a "simple fix." Why, of course! We leave the kitchen deployment where it is, and just install a proxy kitchen facade on the other side of the house, which does everything via the original kitchen through remote procedure calls.
tcdent 8d ago
OP has practically observed the effect of the Ego via software, but hasn't quite arrived at the ability to quantify it. Read back through and apply every example given through that lens. It is possible that we're in an industry that inordinately expresses this part of human nature, but I'm pretty sure it shows up everywhere though different anecdota. Apply a reductionist Zen Buddhist view to your professional creativity and all of this goes away. Bob wants to refactor a subsystem because it will make him a hero, and if he positions it correctly to management, the technical merit and actual realized level of success will be irrelevant. Alice chooses to surface some obvious concerns and then sit back and watch the show. Jane chooses to throw her hands up in stand-up and try to emotionally convince everyone the sky will fall. Be like Alice and preserve your sanity.
- EA-3167 8d ago
  Being like Alice preserves your sanity on that level, but opens you up to significant issues in your future career and financial state. There's a reason why people who make a bundle relatively early in this world often pack it in and move to a farm or a job where they can enjoy the produce of their labor. They have a good choice to make without sacrificing more than they can afford, but that's not true of everyone at all times.
- wuliwong 8d ago
  Or maybe he thought it was more effective to talk specifically about something he had actual experience rather than saying "it shows up everywhere" with no way to actually support the claim?
oedemis 8d ago
It depends on the context, software that controls an airplane has very different requirements from an todo-app.
- wuliwong 8d ago
  Which he talks about in the article of course.
raphar 8d ago
The part that the cost of changing software is unknown, ignored and fixed is not true anymore. This is a thing I realized recently. A company cannot get free (o low cost) software changes anymore. Someone invented llms and they charge by work produced (useful or not) So a PM cannot "save" costs by pushing. The employees will resort to their agents and there will be cost. If there is no agent, another company will beat them. So now a change has a measurable cost and even you can calculate in what was spent (agent logs)
Chance-Device 8d ago
When you know something can be changed relatively easily, say compared to a building or a car, the tendency is to do it. Especially when there is no tight feedback loop telling you what is a right and wrong move. The churn is the result of the psychology of uncertainty combined with the ability to act on that anxiety. Shipping MVPs or minimal features quickly and seeing if they stick is a solution. Quick and dirty until you know something is worth further effort. Yes, user feedback is good but often people don’t know what they want, or think they want things they won’t actually use, and you won’t find out until it’s sitting in front of them. And someone is always yelling that everything is taking too long, usually the same person who told their boss that something would be done by x date without asking anyone else.
- deleted 7d ago
  [deleted]
hungryhobbit 8d ago
Wow that was way, way, way too long. The author could have summed that whole entire "essay" up in maybe five paragraphs!
DidntUseIt 8d ago
> But, harsh as it may be: most software is still just a glorified spreadsheet. Think the author means most back-end software is a glorified spreadsheet (CRUD app with a few sorting algorithms). The last 10-20 years in software has been more about new device interfaces, improving UI/UX, and networking technologies. I think of things like streaming, 3D games, live chat, video content, mobile apps, and LLMs. Anyone who thinks about software like that would not instill confidence in me that they make very good software. > You can watch sensible people argue for an hour over a button because, somewhere deep inside the conversation, the button has become connected to a future pile of money. > It means understanding that not every problem is existential, not every idea belongs on the roadmap, and not every abstraction deserves to exist. > waste away in Margaritaville tinkering with shit that doesn't need tinkering with. I don't really understand what each paragraph has to do with each other, or why this message is being shared with me today. I don't even mind that style of writing, but it should be more specific and interesting if it's going to be stream of consciousness style like that (IMO). To do all that, and deliver just vague half-points and boring assertions, felt like I was just waiting for some kind of punchline or point to be made that I could nod my head at but no thought was stuck with long enough. The conclusion was like they tried to come up with anything just to turn the essay in on time.
- wuliwong 8d ago
  This was written at a really easy level. It was not at all hard to understand. Disagreeing with something and not understand it are very different but often the latter is feigned to make the writing seem written by an inferior. It's kinda like an ad hominem attack. (≧▽≦)
  - DidntUseIt 6d ago
    You don’t know what “ad hominem” means. But you are right that it’s beginner level writing.
marcelo-earth 8d ago
> But, harsh as it may be: most software is still just a glorified spreadsheet. I've always liked representing it this way, the software we use rarely breaks out of the CRUD mold.
aamoscodes 8d ago
I've been "joking" about this with my friends for a couple months now, and every day it becomes less and less of a joke--there are some very...interesting...things happening on the Twitter timeline these days.
mmm0x 8d ago
the level of observability swe's have into how their changes affect UX, revenue, costs, etc. definitely have something to do with it. that feedback loop isn't as quick in other industries.
wuliwong 8d ago
I don't usually dig these little tirade blog posts but I genuinely laughed, related, and enjoyed this one. I particularly liked this quote: >You can watch sensible people argue for an hour over a button because, somewhere deep inside the conversation, the button has become connected to a future pile of money. I have worked in a number of different types of jobs; from restaurants, to nursing homes, to roofing, to physics research. And finally for about 15 years I've been developing software at various companies of various sizes (Giant corporations to tiny startups). Part of what he describes is what attracted me to this industry. The feeling of being able to create something that people can actually use and might actually make money (maybe A LOT of money) was/is stimulating. Having witnessed the craziness that can come from that seed, well I just think he did a great job of explaining it. I appreciate that he tries to balance showing the insanity with the fact that there are times when the underlying driver is real. That's probably true of most insanities though. :) Anyway, I'm not leaving the industry but I think it's really difficult for the AI agents to tell what is crazy and what isn't, so they are picking up this insane culture. (^▽^)
msteffen 8d ago
I love this framing. I have a lot of ideas about why this is true, but the best (IMO) pat explanation I've been able to come up with is: 1. Much of constructing software is math of a sort. In math, you write proofs that say why X is true. In software, you write code that guarantees X will be true (e.g. "the backend assumed a user ID was always available, but now that we have service accounts, we need to change the access control code so that a sensible view is still returned") 2. Math is hard, and most of the work is invisible thinking. If you asked a mathematician for an estimate on when the Reimann hypothesis will be proved, they would laugh at you. Our problems are generally easier, but they can still be hard. And as in math, they're sometimes much harder than you expect (e.g. Fermat's Last Theorem. "Why was it so hard? Did you talk to Fermat? He left? But he said it would be easy!")
manlymuppet 8d ago
Is it fair to say the same applies to writing? It feels like so often when I'm reading something (really anything--blog posts, essays, the news) the words I'm reading are there for their own sake, not because they need to be there. Maybe it's because I'm reading work with a deadline, or from a half-hearted writer, or maybe it's because a lot of people have never been taught how to write well. Whatever it is, so much of writing is bad because the author hasn't done their due diligence with their purpose for writing. Except unlike software, this fault is so prevalent and eternal that it has become the status quo.
FiddlerClamp 8d ago
Tech has the following issues to greater and lesser extents: * It gets in the way: confirmations, notifications, features that don't exist and can't be added, even when they're asked for repeatedly. * It stops listening: freezes, overly-strict interaction requirements. * It's not 100% safe, and thus not truly reliable. Not all tech is like that. Or has to be.
jondlm 8d ago
I really liked the article. Thanks for sharing! Here's my alternate title: people are insane, software reveals it. Insane feels too strong, though. I believe people make sense. We just have this crazy ability to fool ourselves by spinning stories. And many of the stories we continue to spin were handed to us without our awareness.
tkel 8d ago
Seems like your actual argument is that competitive profiteering makes people insane. That is the motive here. Software is just the conduit. As well as the people who work on software not being the ones making decisions about that work. A gap between the deciders and the laborers. Which is a result of the structure of the current micro political economy within organizations. It is not separate from it.
IvanLudvig 8d ago
Since software is less constrained by physical resources and has low perceived friction for change, it's easy to adopt a development strategy based on the common ideas that "more is better" and that continuous change is inherently good. But things don't have to be this way. Buttons moving around after every update isn't inevitable. AI-assistants in text editors aren't inevitable either. I use and love xfce, for example
- IvanLudvig 8d ago
  Hacker News itself is a great example too
scrubs 7d ago
My long running message of the day: "eventually all programmers turn into mumblers."
damethos 7d ago
The article had me at "[...] every new feature is the one that's going to be the one (but certainly not that one that was supposed to be the one during the previous sprint)". I have fought way too many times the new "the one" feature. Just ship it, it's already good enough, everything else just adds cost, especially psychological cost to the team.
waylandsmithers 7d ago
This rings so true to me. I've had about a dozen jobs in software and exposure to another dozen through consulting, and I've generally found that the more mundane the application, the more the company's leadership and many employees had deluded themselves into thinking they were truly changing the world (a sales productivity tool in the most extreme case). Like the bigger the elephant in the room that the project was actually pretty boring, the more overcompensation there had to be.
mikewarot 7d ago
My career in software development happened back in the days of MS-DOS, before Windows really took hold. I developed a system that recorded the inspection of Fire Safety equipment like Fire Extinguishers, Hoses, etc. My initial estimate for the time required to build the system was 2 months, it actually took 3. Then the client looked at it, and it met all the requirements, but was unusable in practice. I then worked onsite for a year, and learned so much about software usability by seeing it in use. After that year, we deployed it to 10 other sites. Other than having a summer intern once, it was a solo effort. The code was written in Turbo Pascal, with some code on the hand-held computers written in a language called PL/N. (A variant of PL/1 for the Norand corporation handhelds) I wrote all my own text editing/forms handling libraries, and everything else I needed. Version control was using pkZip to archive the source code onto 3.5" floppy disks. Tying it back to the article in question, I can't imagine what it's been like with the push for "sprints" and all the rest in software development over the past few decades. I can see how it would drive you to burnout. I'm very thankful I missed it. Y'all have my sympathy.
- antfarm 6d ago
  Sprint is a terrible misnomer, it should be iteration. It's about seeing work as a series of opportunities to gather feedback and apply the learnings to the way future work is done.
nektro 7d ago
this effect feels only tangentially related to software

468 points by rglover 8d ago

> Not in the "wash your hands every thirty minutes like Howard Hughes" kind of way, Hold on, this isn't that crazy in today's day and age. I used to wash my hands basically only when using the restroom or before eating. Since the pandemic though, I started upping that a lot (not every 30 minutes, but pretty frequently) and since then almost never get sick.

hackingonempty 8d ago
The Cochrane review of "physical interventions to interrupt or reduce the spread of respiratory viruses" that infamously does not find a significant effect for masking does find significant effects for hand washing.
- disgruntledphd2 8d ago
  It's worth noting that Cochrane reviews are normally the minimal effect sizes you'll see, as they pull in every study and hate self reported measures. Don't get me wrong, they're my first port of call (mostly for the funnel plots), but they're one source, with their own biases.
- gowld 8d ago
  Even that is overselling it: https://www.cochranelibrary.com/cdsr/doi/10.1002/14651858.CD006207.pub6/full https://www.cochranelibrary.com/cdsr/doi/10.1002/14651858.CD... > Key messages > We are uncertain whether wearing masks or N95/P2 respirators helps to slow the spread of respiratory viruses based on the studies we assessed. > Hand hygiene programmes may help to slow the spread of respiratory viruses. > There is uncertainty about the effects of face masks. The low to moderate certainty of evidence means our confidence in the effect estimate is limited, and that the true effect may be different from the observed estimate of the effect. > Hand hygiene is likely to modestly reduce the burden of respiratory illness, and although this effect was also present when ILI [influenza-like illnesses] and laboratory‐confirmed influenza were analysed separately, it was not found to be a significant difference for the latter two outcomes. > Our confidence in these results is generally low to moderate for the subjective outcomes related to respiratory illness, but moderate for the more precisely defined laboratory‐confirmed respiratory virus infection, related to masks and N95/P2 respirators. > Relatively low numbers of people followed the guidance about wearing masks or about hand hygiene, which may have affected the results of the studies.
EvanAnderson 8d ago
Anecdote: During the pandemic I added washing my hands every time I get back to my office building (and specifically after interacting with surfaces the public interacts with) to my usual hand washing (after bathrooms and before eating, just like you). I keep a towel in my hand for any door handles between the restroom and my office door. Since doing this I feel like I've noticed fewer illnesses, too.
s_dev 8d ago
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49608023 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49608023 Not arguing one way or the other just brining up the last Hacker News conversation where it was established that dirty hands are good for you.
mathisfun123 8d ago
This is exactly why I think this article is wrong: it starts with a false premise that devs are sane to begin with (not because you're right or wrong re hand washing but because this is an insane thing to focus on from the article).
tjwebbnorfolk 8d ago
> in today's day and age The human world today is freer of pathogens than at any point in all history.

deleted 8d ago

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bob1029 8d ago

Software development untethered from the practical realities of the customer / user is what drives people insane. When developers are required to interact with the customer on a regular basis, the freewheeling effects described in this article are damped massively. The potential for insanity goes off the charts when the development team is siloed away in solitary confinement and the only interactions with the client occur via some prison guard known as "project manager" sliding notes under the door. Working with the customer sometimes sucks. Just like exercise and eating vegetables sometimes suck. It's a temporary unhappiness that keeps us grounded in reality.

mediaman 8d ago
Agreed. I find it really fun to work with customers. It keeps you focused on real problems. And there are so many problems in 'boring' industries that need solving. Just a ridiculous number. There's so much bad software out there, or things being done manually, still now so many decades into the industry. But you have to be willing to break out of the bubble, including getting on a plane, and I see very few people being willing to do that.
mschuster91 8d ago
> The potential for insanity goes off the charts when the development team is siloed away in solitary confinement and the only interactions with the client occur via some prison guard known as "project manager" sliding notes under the door. But... but what would Project Managers do, then? Anyway the key thing for any software developer AND Project Managers to do is regularly work first level helpdesk.
- AnimalMuppet 8d ago
  What would Project Managers do? Manage backlog. Set priorities. See that the one customer gripe from someone's eccentric old Uncle George does not re-architect the entire UI, no matter how fervently Uncle George believes in it. Do the same as the previous sentence, when "Uncle George" is in upper management.
cosmic_cheese 8d ago

glitchc 8d ago

Beautifully written post and true on many levels. The art of software stopped being an art once large amounts of capital started creeping in. There are no signs that we're returning to sanity any time soon.

hungryhobbit 8d ago
Ok, I get how you might like the ideas there, but "beautifully written"?!? Really? The goal of writing is to communicate. That means saying what you mean to say ... and not filling paragraph after paragraph with pointless and redundant things you don't need to say. There is not an English teacher in this world who would argue that was even a well-written essay, let alone a beautifully-written one.

randusername 8d ago

My observation is simply that tech leaders misinterpret rewards from the market in conquering some abstract representation of a facet of a domain with conquering the domain itself. Then they become egomaniacal. Did you conquer commercial real-estate ushering in the future of work and society, or did you build a handy scheduling app? Did you have a neat idea for an online community or did you revolutionize human connection?

zug_zug 8d ago
+1 . I think it takes a certain type of mental or emotional deficit to forfeit all of your free time and the majority stake in your company for funding for a tiny shot at hitting a grand-lam. "Not everything needs to be a platform". I remember a 10 person company that did translation dispatch for medical needs in California. And the CEO was insisting we needed to someday "become a platform."
- deleted 8d ago
  [deleted]
- Terr_ 8d ago
  Similar to "needs to be a platform" [0], another variant is "be a data company" where somehow the underpants gnomes will transform your moat of stored information into profit. [0] Read: "Needs to be pitch-able to investors as a magical 1000x growth unicorn."
  - fragmede 8d ago
    it's no longer a theory. google paid millions for spirit airlines' emails and internal messages to be used as training data for their AIs.
    - ambicapter 8d ago
      Google already had the machine, this was just feeding the machine. 99% of companies do not have this machinery in place and probably wouldn't know where to start.

jadbox 8d ago

As a founder of a few software startups, I agree with this. If I can give advice to other founders, remember than software is usually a means to an end, and for most users, they just want the bare bone essentials to work and work well. Everything else is nice-to-have-fluff that won't drive 99% of sales. The apps I pay for are simple and focus on a super basic interface. BookFusion and Libro.fm are great examples.

icantevenhold 8d ago
It’s interesting because my experience is inverse (b2b software) - the bloated shiny solution what actually doesnt work at all performs better in the market than the sober, unsexy solution that just works. Companies like Oracle or Microsoft are so massive not because they sell simple and focused products that work well; quite the opposite Might be different when you’re selling to endusers
- ravikapoor101 8d ago
  Oracle (and SAP and IBM) are not in the business of building software, they are in the business of never complete software, instead stretch the project as far as you can and bill to death.
- mitxela 7d ago
  Oracle and Microsoft are in the contracting business, and software is just an excuse for them to get contracts.

dvh 8d ago

> Everything becomes urgent because everything can move quickly I finally understand why I quit my previous job.

iamcalledrob 8d ago

> Leaving things alone is an underrated engineering skill. Truer words have never been spoken.

AnimalMuppet 8d ago
"It is often easier to not do something stupid than it is to do something smart."
icantevenhold 8d ago
It’s an underrated life skill and was discovered by Lao Tsé probably around 2500 years ago

dkarl 8d ago

The insanity the author is describing sounds like normal corporate BS to me. Everybody wants to "raise concerns," everybody is looking for an idea to take credit for, everybody has a reason your idea won't succeed. I'm pretty sure this is the same whether you're making software or advertising campaigns or plastic cups. I once tried to explain a pointless debate over the definitions of "acceptance testing" versus "regression testing" to a non-tech person, and they said that was the most relatable thing I'd ever told them about my job.

Apocryphon 8d ago

I’ve always thought that this principle explains all sorts of cultural phenomena, from the tech industry having a poorer work-balance compared to others (the pace of development is only limited by how many hours you must sleep!) and programmers seemingly having worse engineer’s disease than in other disciplines (if software can do anything and know everything, how could we, the lever-makers, be any less than our creations?).

eazel7 8d ago

windows adbloat and 15 corporate software policies and scanners drive people insane

FLeXMurphy 8d ago

It is not the software, it is the internet. Something Awful already had it figured out: The internet makes you stupid.

add-sub-mul-div 8d ago
And they even figured that out before Cambridge Analytica happened.
arthurfirst 8d ago
It makes a lot of people dumber -- they doom scroll, gossip, play childrens games, and on the high end post cat memes. But it's a tool like any other and the results depend on the user. For those with eyes to see and ears to hear it is (was) the Library of Alexandria. The knowledge of the world unfiltered without gate keeper trolls deciding what you can see and learn. Getting on the internet in 1993 completely changed my life. Linux changed my life and without the internet there is no Linux. Before Linux you could not get a UNIX distro for less than $1000 USD which was a lot of money for me back then. Before Linux and Internet all that was available to consumers outside of big institutions was Windoze and Apple was already on life support. The internet and Linux opened an entire world to me and I never looked back. Everyone at the time said I was wasting my time and should be doing an MCSE LOL but those are people in the 90%... they will NEVER get it. Fast forward 4 years later I'm working in startups and leading dev teams and that was almost 30 years ago. I can imagine what my life would have been without the internet and I prefer how things worked out. So it did not make me dumber... but the filtered nannied corporate approved internet of 2026 -- that probably just makes anyone dumber.
- my002 8d ago
  The Internet doesn't make people dumber any more than video games, rock music, picaresque novels, the printing press, or writing did. These kinds of arguments come around with every new technology and have always been fatuous.
  - mitxela 7d ago

hliyan 8d ago

I was about to post this thought on the latest "We're moving from tech/architecture X to Y" post on the HN front page today, but now I feel it belongs here. I was recently chatting with a friend about how we used to do so much more with so few developers: 20 years ago, we developed mission critical, real time software (trading systems) in C++ with team of a couple of dozen developers. The core trading kernel team was four people. An in-house distributed process orchestration tool (both front end and back end written in C++) were two guys. I myself once managed to produce an entire post-trade risk management system for futures contracts in a couple of months, working alone. Today, I see teams of 60-80 working on web and mobile applications where the vast majority of operations are CRUD, with some transaction/queue complexity at the extremities. I think the difference is tech churn. Back then, what few dependencies we had in terms of either runtime libraries or development time tools, were stable: the standard library, compiler, unix commands and bash scripts, and some internal libraries. Much of our time and focus went into figuring out the right algorithms and data structures, with coding coming in second. Very little time was spent on selecting, configuring, updating, rearchitecting or replacing tech stacks and tools.

hankbond 8d ago
yes but also people-churn/attrition was likely lower too. it can really hurt your career to stay in most organizations more than 2 years because very few places devote any meaningful resources to growing from within. if you want better opportunities and more comp it often requires moving companies.
hermitShell 8d ago
If you've not read Fred Brooks MMM, give it a shot. It seems like you're implying that teams of 60-80 developers should be expected to outperform teams of 12. This is simply not true. The most important feature of source code as a language is that it allows precise mindshare among close knit teams. It doesn't guarantee it, but it makes it possible for people to talk about the product at a level that is otherwise very difficult. A convenient side-effect of the source code is that it instructs the machine what to do. But instructing the machine was never the bottleneck, the essential difficulty of software development is in understanding what are the correct instructions to achieve some objective, not typing them out. The problem is that communication doesn't scale at all. Having just 3 developers with good alignment about mental models, best practices, and design direction is hard enough, and if you found the right three people at the right time with the right ideas, you could generate billions of dollars of value. Large monolithic teams on the order of 80 are a product of people in control not understanding how software development works, and how to make it work well.

aghilmort 8d ago

ya, almost every app is over-opinionated on design and only getting worse not better in most case, iOS 26 is perhaps the most egregious mass-market example thinking to this day afaik still can't change width of first column on Monday.com even tho they claim to replace spreadsheets and only js console will fix or Trello going the opposite direction of former CTO when any page specifically had sub-second load target. now many seconds, that insane auto markdown editor showing up on almost all input boxes except HN that can't disable no chatgpt i dont want automated bullets i wanted plaintext so can c/p etc.

w10-1 8d ago

I wanted the author to see how this relates elsewhere and identify the forces at work. The solution is not just "do only what's needed by the customer". There are emerging environments where the conditions don't force previously-rational decisions, and where assumptions no longer apply. New tools in the battlefields of yore, new beliefs and practices in cultures... The stunning march of compute hardware in the last 50 years has changed many such conditions. Those who work with new freedom - liberated from the strictures of old gods, able to harm enemies without putting themselves at risk, with the time freed from foraging to build - have to identify the new constraints and conditions at work. And sometimes to make the conditions that make for sanity: Solon got ancient Greece out of a stagnating pickle by getting the wealthy to release the poor from debtors' jails but sign them up for the military that could defend lands and trade routes, if they subjected themselves to land-owner self-government and the annual ostracism of one person who went too far. Capitalism used competitive markets to liberate but discipline business, but right now the scaling power of compute leads to winner-take-all, and the openness of the West is seeding closed systems (military or foreign) with the power to destroy the liberal governance that sustains it. In software we're stuck between Scylla and Charybdis: an Anthropic+OpenAI duopoly or Chinese control over the lifeblood of enterprise. If there were someone who in the large had structured the freedom of software to make its practitioners and stakeholders sane, they'd be a good candidate to steer us through this situation, so this freedom wouldn't drive us insane.

black_13 8d ago

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Terr_ 8d ago

Reminds me of this 2014 post "Programming Sucks" [0], which touches on some similar issues of getting disconnected from reality in a microcosm that always "ought" to be better than it is. > All programming teams are constructed by and of crazy people [...] > The destructive impact on the brain is demonstrated by the programming languages people write. [...] > All programmers are forcing their brains to do things brains were never meant to do in a situation they can never make better, ten to fifteen hours a day, five to seven days a week, and every one of them is slowly going mad. [0] https://www.stilldrinking.org/programming-sucks https://www.stilldrinking.org/programming-sucks

eschneider 8d ago
After doing this a few decades, one of the things I've discovered that, working 15 hours a day is insanely overrated. A shocking number of 'impossible' problems become quite easy if you just think about them lightly overnight.

pjerem 8d ago

Oh, Nice reading :)

FiddlerClamp 8d ago

Or, it's greasing the wheels of free-association until people skid out of control. And since the 'world' of the chat is mostly epistemologically closed (except for Web search), there's no absolute tether point. Everything's subjective, and self-confirming.

mococa 8d ago

I don’t know… People says that I eat ice cream using the forehead

bluegatty 8d ago

Well done and the author is just scratching the surface ...

ninju 8d ago

> A boring application that stores records in a database and lets people edit > them doesn't sound especially impressive, while a distributed event-driven > platform with a service mesh and realtime synchronization layer sounds like > you're building NORAD. Very well put

nilsherzig 8d ago

Pretty decent output, mind sharing the prompt and model used? I struggle getting text i enjoy reading https://www.pangram.com/history/5a4b90c6-0123-4f97-b50e-9c9066a4a238?ucc=QjpX0hxYnaS https://www.pangram.com/history/5a4b90c6-0123-4f97-b50e-9c90...

arthurfirst 8d ago

[flagged]

perlgeek 8d ago

When I read the title, my mind immediately jumped to something else: negativity. I've noticed that my own mind always searches for corner cases, error conditions and failure modes. This can be super helpful when planning new features (or explaining to stakeholders that certain conditions must be met first, when they want some new features), but when it extends to other things besides software, it can be psychologically unhealthy.

kerblang 8d ago

Would like to emphasize: Software is intangible. It fails to meet most standards of "what is real", because it exists entirely in the realm of symbols. You're at the edge of reality. To human instincts it seems like an unreal world without rules, so it unconsciously triggers all sorts of weird things, including a good bit of amoral behavior. Nasty things locked away in one's psyche come out to play.

anigbrowl 8d ago

It's not software; it's the fact that most managers/administrators are not software developers (although they may have some programming ability). so they stand in teh same relationto their development team as cusomers complaining to a manufacturer about the features on a physical product, and saying 'it should do this or that, it's an easy change to make' (because it's easy to imagine having it if you skip over the tedium of having to implement it). Of course sometimes the ask is justified and addresses some failing of the original spec, either through lack of ambition or excess ambition that harnessed a cargo container to a lawnmower engine. But most of the conflict the article describe stems from a combination of imagining the benefits of change with the unspoken assumption that implementation is just a matter of pushing a few more buttons.

GaryBluto 8d ago

I know this is slightly off-topic, but is washing your hands twice per hour really considered a Hughesian level of compulsiveness?

fragmede 8d ago
Depends on what you're doing. If you're at a keyboard and there's no reason to wash them, then yes. If you're in a kitchen with ingredients sticking to your fingers, that's not enough.
throw-qqqqq 8d ago
I know no mentally healthy people who wash hands ~32 times daily (16hours awake) - except if you work in a kitchen or as a doctor etc. For office work, it sounds excessive to me. I think most people only wash their hands after toilet visits and perhaps before eating (many don’t).
tanseydavid 8d ago
Twice an hour is not even Hughesian level of compulsiveness IIRC.

deleted 8d ago

[deleted]

cestith 8d ago

Is it software having this effect or management over software products? I don't see many academic or hobby software projects constantly changing what's important to them on a whim. It can be seen all the time in the software industry though.

deleted 8d ago

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delichon 8d ago

"Drives people insane" is the interpretation of those with an external locus of control. For those with an internal locus of control it translates to "reveals character".

huurtehoog 8d ago

There is a symmetrical presumption in the minds of people that the software representation in their screens is both accurate and capable of altering reality when changed. This is very often violated, obviously, and people find it jarring. Another related problem is people will often take software at face value. When you have an inkling of what sort of dysfunction might be behind a certain buggy behavior it is much easier to cope both by finding workarounds, deciding to wait it out (my parents had an issue with some government database and I thought it suspiciously like some change propagation issue, told them to try again next week because I assumed some reconciliation on the weekend would solve it and it did) etc. But a lay person will see error messages and take it to mean some catastrophic bureaucratic issue with their data when it's most likely just poor quality software... I think the expectation that software is correct, accurate, and trustworthy, drives people up the wall when they are confronted with the reality of buggy and poorly implemented systems that they are required to use to function in society.

butlike 8d ago

I think there's some truth to this. All those decisions and interactions at your fingertips cause dopamine release, which in excess can cause things like psychosis, paranoia, or delusions.

cindyllm 7d ago
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einpoklum 8d ago

> Most software, when you strip away the branding and architecture diagrams, is remarkably boring. Lost me right there.

hypfer 8d ago

I feel like this post could've been either shorter or better structured. It explores a bunch of interesting ideas, but the way they're mushed together makes it taste a bit bland. I still don't really understand what exactly it was that this text wanted to tell me. A bunch of things? But also nothing. I can deduce what it I think was supposed to tell me (based on extrapolating patterns and most likely talking points), but it didn't necessarily do that. _Telling_ me I mean. Maybe leaning less into the relateable-ness would've helped there? Or just containing it better. __ I suppose there is a place for just stream of consciousness rambling (like this comment), but the post kinda came with the optics of "here's a statement", but then there's no real statement. So maybe that could also have been fixed with a "Here are some not necessarily fully coherent thoughts you might find interesting" disclaimer. Perhaps my mind is just not wired in the same way as the ones of the target audience, but if that is the case, then I am a bit offended by the blog naming itself "Graybeard". A bit too vibey feely "that is so me omg" for that. (The LLM I've consulted telling me that I'm just missing the point here kinda validates that hypothesis for me. Good for you then. May you all bond over this with your weird "emotional resonance" stuff. It seems to tickle the RLHF stuff just right.)

divs4real 8d ago

pulling levers is the new equivalent to pulling requests

phendrenad2 8d ago

This resonates with me. And I think I know why software is like this. It isn't software that drives people insane, it's money that drives people insane. Specifically the promise of money breaks people's brains. They see the unicorn companies turning junior engineers into overnight millionaires, and they start salivating. They start looking for The Way. The closest thing they find to The Way is a bunch of unicorns and FAANG companies that have gone before. They start looking for talismans and ceremonies that will bring them closer to The Way. Scrum, Agile, Kanban, scalability, "web scale", 12 Factor Methodology, microservices, etc. may be good ideas but they take on real power when they're a perceived path to fortune.

atoav 8d ago

A lot of it has to do with communications. The times I (as a programmer myself) have witnessed how companies we asked to write software tackled it was eye opening in a negative sense. As a freelancer my process involves a lot of observation, asking questions and planning. Usually when I go into the details more questions emerge and whom to ask better than the people who do exactly this daily? Sure sometimes their process is a bad abstraction, they chose because they did not knew better and thus not worth putting into software. But before you decide that you gotta ask whether there are reasons why it was done that way. I see my task as a programmer to make peoples lives easier, by finding elegant abstractions for their problems, that are at the same time, reliable, adjustable, encourage correctness, avoid problems and so on. Now most software companies I interacted with from the other side did none of the things. They rushed to gather the specs, asked some questions in the beginning and were out of the door to start way too fast, with some things they just assumed without confirming. Then crickets and then something half broken comes around that you need to beat into shape in an exhausting back and forth, where again you have to be the person with the questions. If it is exhausting for a person with software development experience to be your customer, how bad will it be for people who have no such experience. Now there are of course exceptions also in such companies, but in my experience that is mich rarer than it should be.

mawadev 8d ago

I'm starting to believe computer work and screens make me lose touch with reality and dissociate. I remember starting an apprenticeship as a dev in 2015 and I saw a guy like me, but 2 years in, with deep eye bags and he just smiled, didnt say anything and he looked extremely exhausted. Well 11 years later and here we are, we are all tethered to this mess

GalaxyNova 7d ago
This is why I hope to retire on a farm

kazinator 8d ago

> Moving the kitchen in software might look like a "simple fix." Why, of course! We leave the kitchen deployment where it is, and just install a proxy kitchen facade on the other side of the house, which does everything via the original kitchen through remote procedure calls.

tcdent 8d ago

OP has practically observed the effect of the Ego via software, but hasn't quite arrived at the ability to quantify it. Read back through and apply every example given through that lens. It is possible that we're in an industry that inordinately expresses this part of human nature, but I'm pretty sure it shows up everywhere though different anecdota. Apply a reductionist Zen Buddhist view to your professional creativity and all of this goes away. Bob wants to refactor a subsystem because it will make him a hero, and if he positions it correctly to management, the technical merit and actual realized level of success will be irrelevant. Alice chooses to surface some obvious concerns and then sit back and watch the show. Jane chooses to throw her hands up in stand-up and try to emotionally convince everyone the sky will fall. Be like Alice and preserve your sanity.

EA-3167 8d ago
Being like Alice preserves your sanity on that level, but opens you up to significant issues in your future career and financial state. There's a reason why people who make a bundle relatively early in this world often pack it in and move to a farm or a job where they can enjoy the produce of their labor. They have a good choice to make without sacrificing more than they can afford, but that's not true of everyone at all times.
wuliwong 8d ago
Or maybe he thought it was more effective to talk specifically about something he had actual experience rather than saying "it shows up everywhere" with no way to actually support the claim?

oedemis 8d ago

It depends on the context, software that controls an airplane has very different requirements from an todo-app.

wuliwong 8d ago
Which he talks about in the article of course.

raphar 8d ago

The part that the cost of changing software is unknown, ignored and fixed is not true anymore. This is a thing I realized recently. A company cannot get free (o low cost) software changes anymore. Someone invented llms and they charge by work produced (useful or not) So a PM cannot "save" costs by pushing. The employees will resort to their agents and there will be cost. If there is no agent, another company will beat them. So now a change has a measurable cost and even you can calculate in what was spent (agent logs)

Chance-Device 8d ago

When you know something can be changed relatively easily, say compared to a building or a car, the tendency is to do it. Especially when there is no tight feedback loop telling you what is a right and wrong move. The churn is the result of the psychology of uncertainty combined with the ability to act on that anxiety. Shipping MVPs or minimal features quickly and seeing if they stick is a solution. Quick and dirty until you know something is worth further effort. Yes, user feedback is good but often people don’t know what they want, or think they want things they won’t actually use, and you won’t find out until it’s sitting in front of them. And someone is always yelling that everything is taking too long, usually the same person who told their boss that something would be done by x date without asking anyone else.

deleted 7d ago
[deleted]

hungryhobbit 8d ago

Wow that was way, way, way too long. The author could have summed that whole entire "essay" up in maybe five paragraphs!

DidntUseIt 8d ago

> But, harsh as it may be: most software is still just a glorified spreadsheet. Think the author means most back-end software is a glorified spreadsheet (CRUD app with a few sorting algorithms). The last 10-20 years in software has been more about new device interfaces, improving UI/UX, and networking technologies. I think of things like streaming, 3D games, live chat, video content, mobile apps, and LLMs. Anyone who thinks about software like that would not instill confidence in me that they make very good software. > You can watch sensible people argue for an hour over a button because, somewhere deep inside the conversation, the button has become connected to a future pile of money. > It means understanding that not every problem is existential, not every idea belongs on the roadmap, and not every abstraction deserves to exist. > waste away in Margaritaville tinkering with shit that doesn't need tinkering with. I don't really understand what each paragraph has to do with each other, or why this message is being shared with me today. I don't even mind that style of writing, but it should be more specific and interesting if it's going to be stream of consciousness style like that (IMO). To do all that, and deliver just vague half-points and boring assertions, felt like I was just waiting for some kind of punchline or point to be made that I could nod my head at but no thought was stuck with long enough. The conclusion was like they tried to come up with anything just to turn the essay in on time.

wuliwong 8d ago
This was written at a really easy level. It was not at all hard to understand. Disagreeing with something and not understand it are very different but often the latter is feigned to make the writing seem written by an inferior. It's kinda like an ad hominem attack. (≧▽≦)
- DidntUseIt 6d ago
  You don’t know what “ad hominem” means. But you are right that it’s beginner level writing.

marcelo-earth 8d ago

> But, harsh as it may be: most software is still just a glorified spreadsheet. I've always liked representing it this way, the software we use rarely breaks out of the CRUD mold.

aamoscodes 8d ago

I've been "joking" about this with my friends for a couple months now, and every day it becomes less and less of a joke--there are some very...interesting...things happening on the Twitter timeline these days.

mmm0x 8d ago

the level of observability swe's have into how their changes affect UX, revenue, costs, etc. definitely have something to do with it. that feedback loop isn't as quick in other industries.

wuliwong 8d ago

I don't usually dig these little tirade blog posts but I genuinely laughed, related, and enjoyed this one. I particularly liked this quote: >You can watch sensible people argue for an hour over a button because, somewhere deep inside the conversation, the button has become connected to a future pile of money. I have worked in a number of different types of jobs; from restaurants, to nursing homes, to roofing, to physics research. And finally for about 15 years I've been developing software at various companies of various sizes (Giant corporations to tiny startups). Part of what he describes is what attracted me to this industry. The feeling of being able to create something that people can actually use and might actually make money (maybe A LOT of money) was/is stimulating. Having witnessed the craziness that can come from that seed, well I just think he did a great job of explaining it. I appreciate that he tries to balance showing the insanity with the fact that there are times when the underlying driver is real. That's probably true of most insanities though. :) Anyway, I'm not leaving the industry but I think it's really difficult for the AI agents to tell what is crazy and what isn't, so they are picking up this insane culture. (^▽^)

msteffen 8d ago

I love this framing. I have a lot of ideas about why this is true, but the best (IMO) pat explanation I've been able to come up with is: 1. Much of constructing software is math of a sort. In math, you write proofs that say why X is true. In software, you write code that guarantees X will be true (e.g. "the backend assumed a user ID was always available, but now that we have service accounts, we need to change the access control code so that a sensible view is still returned") 2. Math is hard, and most of the work is invisible thinking. If you asked a mathematician for an estimate on when the Reimann hypothesis will be proved, they would laugh at you. Our problems are generally easier, but they can still be hard. And as in math, they're sometimes much harder than you expect (e.g. Fermat's Last Theorem. "Why was it so hard? Did you talk to Fermat? He left? But he said it would be easy!")

manlymuppet 8d ago

Is it fair to say the same applies to writing? It feels like so often when I'm reading something (really anything--blog posts, essays, the news) the words I'm reading are there for their own sake, not because they need to be there. Maybe it's because I'm reading work with a deadline, or from a half-hearted writer, or maybe it's because a lot of people have never been taught how to write well. Whatever it is, so much of writing is bad because the author hasn't done their due diligence with their purpose for writing. Except unlike software, this fault is so prevalent and eternal that it has become the status quo.

FiddlerClamp 8d ago

Tech has the following issues to greater and lesser extents: * It gets in the way: confirmations, notifications, features that don't exist and can't be added, even when they're asked for repeatedly. * It stops listening: freezes, overly-strict interaction requirements. * It's not 100% safe, and thus not truly reliable. Not all tech is like that. Or has to be.

jondlm 8d ago

I really liked the article. Thanks for sharing! Here's my alternate title: people are insane, software reveals it. Insane feels too strong, though. I believe people make sense. We just have this crazy ability to fool ourselves by spinning stories. And many of the stories we continue to spin were handed to us without our awareness.

tkel 8d ago

Seems like your actual argument is that competitive profiteering makes people insane. That is the motive here. Software is just the conduit. As well as the people who work on software not being the ones making decisions about that work. A gap between the deciders and the laborers. Which is a result of the structure of the current micro political economy within organizations. It is not separate from it.

IvanLudvig 8d ago

Since software is less constrained by physical resources and has low perceived friction for change, it's easy to adopt a development strategy based on the common ideas that "more is better" and that continuous change is inherently good. But things don't have to be this way. Buttons moving around after every update isn't inevitable. AI-assistants in text editors aren't inevitable either. I use and love xfce, for example

IvanLudvig 8d ago
Hacker News itself is a great example too

scrubs 7d ago

My long running message of the day: "eventually all programmers turn into mumblers."

damethos 7d ago

The article had me at "[...] every new feature is the one that's going to be the one (but certainly not that one that was supposed to be the one during the previous sprint)". I have fought way too many times the new "the one" feature. Just ship it, it's already good enough, everything else just adds cost, especially psychological cost to the team.

waylandsmithers 7d ago

This rings so true to me. I've had about a dozen jobs in software and exposure to another dozen through consulting, and I've generally found that the more mundane the application, the more the company's leadership and many employees had deluded themselves into thinking they were truly changing the world (a sales productivity tool in the most extreme case). Like the bigger the elephant in the room that the project was actually pretty boring, the more overcompensation there had to be.

mikewarot 7d ago

My career in software development happened back in the days of MS-DOS, before Windows really took hold. I developed a system that recorded the inspection of Fire Safety equipment like Fire Extinguishers, Hoses, etc. My initial estimate for the time required to build the system was 2 months, it actually took 3. Then the client looked at it, and it met all the requirements, but was unusable in practice. I then worked onsite for a year, and learned so much about software usability by seeing it in use. After that year, we deployed it to 10 other sites. Other than having a summer intern once, it was a solo effort. The code was written in Turbo Pascal, with some code on the hand-held computers written in a language called PL/N. (A variant of PL/1 for the Norand corporation handhelds) I wrote all my own text editing/forms handling libraries, and everything else I needed. Version control was using pkZip to archive the source code onto 3.5" floppy disks. Tying it back to the article in question, I can't imagine what it's been like with the push for "sprints" and all the rest in software development over the past few decades. I can see how it would drive you to burnout. I'm very thankful I missed it. Y'all have my sympathy.

antfarm 6d ago
Sprint is a terrible misnomer, it should be iteration. It's about seeing work as a series of opportunities to gather feedback and apply the learnings to the way future work is done.

nektro 7d ago

this effect feels only tangentially related to software