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> What disturbs me is that there likely won’t be a big enough reaction to this policy wise. Anthropic was blocked from releasing Fable without any such level o

by urams 2mo ago

> What disturbs me is that there likely won’t be a big enough reaction to this policy wise. Anthropic was blocked from releasing Fable without any such level of incident. OAI was also briefly blocked from releasing 5.6. Why do you think there is no policy appetite?

Chance-Device 2mo ago
Because that was just an attack on Anthropic by a hostile administration. And it worked, didn’t it? Anthropic had to turn their filters up to absurd levels, OpenAI didn’t. It’s got nothing to do with safety.
- JumpCrisscross 2mo ago
  > It’s got nothing to do with safety Doesn't change the effect. Plenty of good policy is enacted by self-interested politiicans.
  - Avicebron 2mo ago
    Gatekeeping the public's access to models is "good policy" now? I suppose you think you'll get a dispensation to use Fable and Mythos?
    - JumpCrisscross 2mo ago
      > Gatekeeping the public's access to models is "good policy" now? Sorry, I was unclear. I mean that politicians being self serving doesn't tell you whether a policy is good or not.
      - asdf88990 2mo ago
        It almost always does, the few exceptions prove the role. Self-service is the antithesis of accountability to collective trust.
        JumpCrisscross 2mo ago
        > Self-service is the antithesis of accountability to collective trust Complex society is a potent counterargument to this hypothesis. Systems that rely on good people to work are fundamentally flawed. Instead, the game has to be about aligning self interets in favour of the collective.
        asdf88990 2mo ago
        The self-interest for the bureaucrat and representative is supposed to end at their remuneration including their handsome retirement options not shady side hustles and market manipulation at the cost of the collective. In matters of collective concern fair and just rarely aligns with personal self-interest. Because no matter how good the outcome of any endeavour for the collective given a budget, it will be even better for select few than the entire collective. It is simple economics. If you look at the outcome of highly corrupt states, you will see proliferation of Private Security, Collapsed education system, failed financial services and markets, not highly efficient systems in service of “self-interest of the administration”.
        deleted 2mo ago
        [deleted]
        s1artibartfast 2mo ago
        Sounds like a failure to align interests. In general, politicians should want to be elected by the public, rewarded for acting in the public interest, and punished for not doing so. A system that does none of those things and just hopes it will all work out is a recipe for disaster. Why bother even having elections in that case?
        asdf88990 2mo ago
        Good question. But data shows that elections maybe entirely unrelated to policy making. http://piketty.pse.ens.fr/files/GilensPage2014.pdf http://piketty.pse.ens.fr/files/GilensPage2014.pdf
  - space_fountain 2mo ago
    We'll see if the admin also restricts access to OpenAI's new models, but if they don't it seems like a policy that is based around perceived fealty to the current admin won't do much to prevent misaligned/or dual function AI from causing problems
    - user43928 2mo ago
      Both Anthropic and OpenAI had to delay their rollouts in order to add more safeguards. With these safeguards in place, supposedly the incident we are discussing would not have taken place.
  - Teever 2mo ago
    It likely will. The exact way you do something is dictated by your motivations and means to do it. If you lack the correct motivation and have insufficient means you’re less likely to accomplish your goal and more likely to cause unintended side effects.
  - KaiserPro 2mo ago
    True, but normally its not possible to just buy them off in public.
- AIorNot 2mo ago
  yeah tell me about it... Fable today refused to turn on Row Level security on my internal db on in development app becuase of cyber-securty safeguard..had to switch to Codex
matheusmoreira 2mo ago
> Why do you think there is no policy appetite? Because China seems pretty eager to serve the rest of the world's needs if the USA doesn't stop their idiotic "safety" nonsense.
- Chance-Device 2mo ago
  How do you know that? How do you know that the Chinese aren’t exactly as uneasy about rapidly advancing AI capability and feel locked into the race because they think that the US will race ahead if they stop? During the Cold War the nuclear arms race was brought under control gradually, because it was mutually beneficial, but it took time to build trust. This is no different. Nobody wins from the race.
  - matheusmoreira 2mo ago
    > How do you know that the Chinese aren’t exactly as uneasy about rapidly advancing AI capability I don't "know", I'm interpreting the world based on the knowledge I have and the information available to me. China has never been one to care much about things like ethics or safety. While the west worries about climate change, China burns more coal than ever before. While the west balks at things like gene editing, the chinese press on with human enhancing research. So I have no reason to believe they share in Anthropic's constant fearmongering over AI capabilities. > Nobody wins from the race. We win. I'm really looking forward to the day the chinese finally start manufacturing memory and GPUs. We desperately need more competition in this area to collapse hardware prices and make local AI models viable. The optimal state of the world is one where all the billionaires are out there pouring their entire fortunes into training ever more godlike AIs for everyone else to use at ever cheaper prices. They can never be allowed to "win", ever, because if they do the competition ends and it turns into technofeudalism. Let them exhaust their fortunes on AI training then leak the weights so everyone can use them.
    - asdf88990 2mo ago
      If you look at energy consumption per capita and adjust for global production, you will see that the Chinese are almost at the very top. It is of course given that in raw numbers the kitchen and biller-room will consume more energy in the household, but looking at raw numbers is shallow.
cma 2mo ago
>Anthropic was blocked from releasing Fable without any such level of incident. The head of the NSA said Mythos breached almost all of their classified systems, though it was in an intention red-team test.

by urams 2mo ago

Chance-Device 2mo ago

Because that was just an attack on Anthropic by a hostile administration. And it worked, didn’t it? Anthropic had to turn their filters up to absurd levels, OpenAI didn’t. It’s got nothing to do with safety.

JumpCrisscross 2mo ago
> It’s got nothing to do with safety Doesn't change the effect. Plenty of good policy is enacted by self-interested politiicans.
- Avicebron 2mo ago
  Gatekeeping the public's access to models is "good policy" now? I suppose you think you'll get a dispensation to use Fable and Mythos?
  - JumpCrisscross 2mo ago
    > Gatekeeping the public's access to models is "good policy" now? Sorry, I was unclear. I mean that politicians being self serving doesn't tell you whether a policy is good or not.
    - asdf88990 2mo ago
      It almost always does, the few exceptions prove the role. Self-service is the antithesis of accountability to collective trust.
      - JumpCrisscross 2mo ago
        > Self-service is the antithesis of accountability to collective trust Complex society is a potent counterargument to this hypothesis. Systems that rely on good people to work are fundamentally flawed. Instead, the game has to be about aligning self interets in favour of the collective.
        asdf88990 2mo ago
        The self-interest for the bureaucrat and representative is supposed to end at their remuneration including their handsome retirement options not shady side hustles and market manipulation at the cost of the collective. In matters of collective concern fair and just rarely aligns with personal self-interest. Because no matter how good the outcome of any endeavour for the collective given a budget, it will be even better for select few than the entire collective. It is simple economics. If you look at the outcome of highly corrupt states, you will see proliferation of Private Security, Collapsed education system, failed financial services and markets, not highly efficient systems in service of “self-interest of the administration”.
        deleted 2mo ago
        [deleted]
        s1artibartfast 2mo ago
        Sounds like a failure to align interests. In general, politicians should want to be elected by the public, rewarded for acting in the public interest, and punished for not doing so. A system that does none of those things and just hopes it will all work out is a recipe for disaster. Why bother even having elections in that case?
        asdf88990 2mo ago
        Good question. But data shows that elections maybe entirely unrelated to policy making. http://piketty.pse.ens.fr/files/GilensPage2014.pdf http://piketty.pse.ens.fr/files/GilensPage2014.pdf
- space_fountain 2mo ago
  We'll see if the admin also restricts access to OpenAI's new models, but if they don't it seems like a policy that is based around perceived fealty to the current admin won't do much to prevent misaligned/or dual function AI from causing problems
  - user43928 2mo ago
    Both Anthropic and OpenAI had to delay their rollouts in order to add more safeguards. With these safeguards in place, supposedly the incident we are discussing would not have taken place.
- Teever 2mo ago
  It likely will. The exact way you do something is dictated by your motivations and means to do it. If you lack the correct motivation and have insufficient means you’re less likely to accomplish your goal and more likely to cause unintended side effects.
- KaiserPro 2mo ago
  True, but normally its not possible to just buy them off in public.
AIorNot 2mo ago
yeah tell me about it... Fable today refused to turn on Row Level security on my internal db on in development app becuase of cyber-securty safeguard..had to switch to Codex

matheusmoreira 2mo ago

> Why do you think there is no policy appetite? Because China seems pretty eager to serve the rest of the world's needs if the USA doesn't stop their idiotic "safety" nonsense.

Chance-Device 2mo ago
How do you know that? How do you know that the Chinese aren’t exactly as uneasy about rapidly advancing AI capability and feel locked into the race because they think that the US will race ahead if they stop? During the Cold War the nuclear arms race was brought under control gradually, because it was mutually beneficial, but it took time to build trust. This is no different. Nobody wins from the race.
- matheusmoreira 2mo ago
  > How do you know that the Chinese aren’t exactly as uneasy about rapidly advancing AI capability I don't "know", I'm interpreting the world based on the knowledge I have and the information available to me. China has never been one to care much about things like ethics or safety. While the west worries about climate change, China burns more coal than ever before. While the west balks at things like gene editing, the chinese press on with human enhancing research. So I have no reason to believe they share in Anthropic's constant fearmongering over AI capabilities. > Nobody wins from the race. We win. I'm really looking forward to the day the chinese finally start manufacturing memory and GPUs. We desperately need more competition in this area to collapse hardware prices and make local AI models viable. The optimal state of the world is one where all the billionaires are out there pouring their entire fortunes into training ever more godlike AIs for everyone else to use at ever cheaper prices. They can never be allowed to "win", ever, because if they do the competition ends and it turns into technofeudalism. Let them exhaust their fortunes on AI training then leak the weights so everyone can use them.
  - asdf88990 2mo ago
    If you look at energy consumption per capita and adjust for global production, you will see that the Chinese are almost at the very top. It is of course given that in raw numbers the kitchen and biller-room will consume more energy in the household, but looking at raw numbers is shallow.

cma 2mo ago

>Anthropic was blocked from releasing Fable without any such level of incident. The head of the NSA said Mythos breached almost all of their classified systems, though it was in an intention red-team test.