20 ms·

Yes, It's Fascism

680 points by mickle00 8mo ago

EchoReflection 8mo ago
https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/the-nation/ https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/the-nation/ https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/atlantic-media/ https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/atlantic-media/ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outrage_porn https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outrage_porn https://www.reddit.com/r/RedditForGrownups/comments/dvyd48/what_do_you_think_of_the_concept_of_outrage/ https://www.reddit.com/r/RedditForGrownups/comments/dvyd48/w... https://therapygroupdc.com/therapist-dc-blog/why-we-snap-understanding-the-psychology-of-online-outrage/ https://therapygroupdc.com/therapist-dc-blog/why-we-snap-und...
- defrost 8mo ago
  If you're unable to make an actual comment in your own words, then perhaps you might take your link regurgitation to an appropriate link aggregator site. Elsewhere. I'm guessing the existence of two sites, both rated [HIGH] for factual accuracy, give you a sense of outrage when you read accurate facts?
vga42 8mo ago
Non-paywalled article here: https://archive.is/Maalh https://archive.is/Maalh
jmclnx 8mo ago
No doubt with that, ICE seems to be able to kill when and whomever they want. ICE looks close to the brown shirts in Germany in the 30s.
- cookszn 8mo ago
  [dead]
- noitpmeder 8mo ago
  They're basically jackboots, I have to imagine almost entirely composed of the republican far right. Just imagine the echo chamber that exists within their ranks. They literally just murdered someone in cold blood. Textbook execution without trial. And have some of the most powerful people in the world saying how brave they are and how great of a job they did executing their duty. Their entire recruiting process has the effect of self selecting for the exact kind of person who is significantly more likely to shoot an unarmed nonviolent protestor. If I recall correctly they even have notably higher salary and signing bonuses compared to similar agencies, which could be (decent pessimistically) interpreted as a way to hoover up more recruits with questionable moral bases. "Oh I really don't think ICE is doing the right thing, but oh boy sign me up for that cash baby".
  - mickle00 8mo ago
    ICE being the highest funded U.S. law enforcement agency is so sad, and so fucked https://www.kuow.org/stories/how-ice-grew-to-be-the-highest-funded-u-s-law-enforcement-agency https://www.kuow.org/stories/how-ice-grew-to-be-the-highest-...
testing22321 8mo ago
The parallels it dark times in history are too strong to ignore. The only question now is will the people be able to stop the takeover before it’s too late.
- jay_kyburz 8mo ago
  After reading this piece I was wondering if there were any examples of a fascist state that were deposed by peace, or whether armed conflict is now inevitable.
  - freitasm 8mo ago
    There are few, Spain's King Juan Carlos I being crowned king after Francisco Franco's death, and Chile's Pinochet leaving power after the 1988 referendum for example.
    - ks2048 8mo ago
      If 15 years of dictatorship is one of the few positive examples, that is not a good sign.
      - card_zero 8mo ago
        Well how many examples have there been anyway? Maybe six, under a range of definitions? Besides, historicism (inevitabilism) is wrong.
        jay_kyburz 8mo ago
        I agree, and I wish I was able to delete the post. I thought afterwards the question itself is a little poor taste.
  - karmakurtisaani 8mo ago
    I think Spain transitioned from fascist dictatorship to democracy relatively peacefully.
marksbrown 8mo ago
https://archive.is/pbT6z https://archive.is/pbT6z
- p4bl0 8mo ago
  If someone is able to access this, would it be possible to copy-paste the article content somewhere else? I'm stuck in a broken captcha loop.
  - renewiltord 8mo ago
    Everyone is Cloudflare anti-DDoS protected these days. Even pastebin. But perhaps it works https://pastebin.com/fHXz3eHG https://pastebin.com/fHXz3eHG
    - blibble 8mo ago
      I wouldn't bet on the holding, the cloudflare CEO didn't seem above licking the ring https://x.com/eastdakota/status/2009654937303896492 https://x.com/eastdakota/status/2009654937303896492 he's even using their rhetoric ("DISGUSTING")
      - Imustaskforhelp 8mo ago
        Crazy that I had to still defend him in one of the posts when I mentioned cf vs italy. but in no way or form I endorse cf I do have my domain name in them but I have been lazy to migrate out with cf tunnels but I definitely hope that I can have courage to muster to migrate my domains and cf tunnels alternative and everything. Edit: Looks like we were talking about the same thing, y'know what's crazy is that there are some points in which I can justify cloudflare but in no way or form should they try to speak the rheoteric or something. Like just call spade a spade and we can understand it that in this case italy is wrong but the fact that he had to speak in the rheoteric or even spoke in first place is why I also don't really like cloudflare & think that the internet should move away from 12% traffic being in cloudflare Hope that I am able to explain that italy vs cf, I feel like italy's in the wrong but overall cf with its CEO rheoteric is wrong too and as you mention, he isn't above kissing the ring and we probably need alternatives too.
fugalfervor 8mo ago
I am so terribly disturbed by the ICE shootings (and killings). There is no justification for them. This is supposed to be a nation of laws and the rights of those shot (to say nothing of those abducted and harassed, beaten, or removed without due process) has been so grossly violated that it's hard to believe. My heart aches for the countless victims of this band of fascists in the executive branch.
- RealityVoid 8mo ago
  > I am so terribly disturbed by the ICE shootings (and killings). There is no justification for them. I think they are simply poorly trained people that are given free reign. The results are disastrous. They probably don't wake up thinking "Today I'm going to murder someone" but they just don't realize what they're doing. I'm not sure how it's at the destructiveness scale at this moment, but these organizations can and it probably will get much worse as their internal culture morphs into more directly aggressive stance. The shootings were incredibly dumb, and it's pretty much what one would expect when they create this kind of situation. Listening to the "Revolutions" podcast I realized situations like these are incredibly common all along history, you have armed people with tense spirits, a gun goes off and tragedy ensues. The most terrible part of all of this is the reaction of the authorities that lie, gaslight and support these people, get them off the hook and this reaction will only generate more violence and more deaths as ICE realizes they _really can_ act with impunity.
  - idiotsecant 8mo ago
    There are absolutely people in this group who woke up hoping they got an excuse to murder someone. You interact with the entire gamut of human experience every day, but you never know which ones are the secret heroes and which ones are the secret concentration camp guards until they're presented with the right set of circumstances. It's as much a mistake to assume that everyone is relatively moral as it is to assume that everyone is relatively evil.
    - RealityVoid 8mo ago
      I agree with you, I just assume that the percentage of completely evil people is much smaller than most people think, but large enough that you interact with them regularly. And that you can get good people to do evil things if you put them in the right situation.
RealityVoid 8mo ago
I actually think that there is an amalgam of ideologies here (I know, so very fascist of them). Trump is more of a monarchist. A lot of the people supporting him are outright fascists. Some are plain idiots. Them winning absolute control over the country would be a disaster for their movement though. They'd turn to internal fighting, the entropy of victory and all that. And they don't seem terribly competent with governance, it would probably turn off a lot of smart people, so the country would lose a lot of its capabilities. EDIT: Also, there are funny things going on with the political submissions. I think there is active interference going on, they get flagged almost immediately. This got flagged and unflagged in the space of a couple minutes, so thanks to the mod team they are letting it up, I think there is important conversation to be had here.
- fugalfervor 8mo ago
  Stephen Miller is a fascist, no doubt about it. Even if Trump is not a fascist, per se, he's following the advice of -- and delegating authority to -- the fascists that surround him.
- Tostino 8mo ago
  And Germany would have been a much larger country economically if Hitler was executed after his first coup attempt. The Weimar government didn't choose that path though, and went for civility. The brain drain was massive, both before the war, and even more so after. That didn't stop the peasant minded from supporting the Nazi regime though. They got to punish the people who they were told made them poor. I live in FL, so I get to interact daily with people who are cheering for this crackdown, and have said the equivalent of "those rioters (protestors) should be put down in the street". I don't have much hope for where our country is headed. The flags on any type of post like this are absolutely ridiculous. Glad the mods are at least for now letting this one stand.
- mickle00 8mo ago
  It's sad that these posts are now seemingly disappearing from /active in addition to the home page They are very relevant to the current state of affairs in America, with respect to tech, immigration, startups, and the hacker ethos
ClownsAbound 8mo ago
[dead]
wslh 8mo ago
I don’t understand how there aren’t demonstrations happening almost everywhere in the US by now.
- cookszn 8mo ago
  Yea let me go protest the government on behalf of foreigners illegally crossing the border!
- quercus 8mo ago
  Because most people are happy to see immigration laws enforced.
  - mingus88 8mo ago
    Then why isn’t ICE in the states with the most immigrants?
    - cookszn 8mo ago
      Immigrants? or illegal immigrants? There’s a huge distinction between an immigrant coming with a visa/green card with a set job and education (net positive to the country)
    - mickle00 8mo ago
      logic would indicate that its either (or both) (1) its not about immigration (it's about power and control thru fear) or (2) they're idiots
      - mingus88 8mo ago
        Agreed. If this were about enforcing immigration law, they would first focus on red states with huge immigrant populations, where they would have full cooperation from the local government and citizens who overwhelmingly voted for Trump. Those supporters who care about enforcing immigration laws would directly benefit. This is obviously violence directed at Minnesota, who is led by a political opponent. It’s capital F Fascism and everyone on the right has grandfathers that are ashamed of them.
p4bl0 8mo ago
An additional short read which is really worth it: Il fascismo eterno by Umberto Eco, in which the author describes 14 properties of fascists regimes. It's been translated in English as Ur-fascism and is available online for free at the anarchist library: https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/umberto-eco-ur-fascism https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/umberto-eco-ur-fasci....
- solaire_oa 8mo ago
  To be honest, I found this essay a bit meandering and I lost interest in reading the whole thing (coming off the heels of re-reading Civil Disobedience, which by comparison is immediately forthright and to the point). Skipping ahead to the 14 properties, however, points 5, 7, 11, and 12 are probably the most evident in the present moment.
  - frm88 8mo ago
    Bret Deveraux, the American historian, did an analysis in 2024 of Eco's essay with focus on Trump and found all 14 were already a check: https://acoup.blog/2024/10/25/new-acquisitions-1933-and-the-definition-of-fascism/ https://acoup.blog/2024/10/25/new-acquisitions-1933-and-the-...
    - solaire_oa 8mo ago
      Oh, having a historian's translation of the essay is legitimately helpful for understanding how the the points relate in the current climate, thank you. And I love acoup.blog, separately (tangentially related, I was legitimately crestfallen when he linked the formations of the orc army to the enduring, permeating, trans-generational success of Nazi propaganda https://acoup.blog/2019/05/24/collections-the-siege-of-gondor-part-iii-having-fun-storming-the-city/ https://acoup.blog/2019/05/24/collections-the-siege-of-gondo...)
Kaibeezy 8mo ago
If you are debating whether to read this article, read it. It’s comprehensive and precise, and although political in substance, not political in form — test-fitting an imprecise definition. The fact it also reaches a firm conclusion (spoiler alert right there in the title) is depoliticized by allowing for malleable application. A benchmark article I will now go share elsewhere. What’s left to talk about? How to react. How it ends. Where we likely go from there. Where we should go.
- lossolo 8mo ago
  > How it ends. Where we likely go from there. I highly recommend Anniversary https://www.imdb.com/title/tt12583926/ https://www.imdb.com/title/tt12583926/
- azakai 8mo ago
  If this interested you, here is another detailed and precise article by a historian, on the same topic: https://acoup.blog/2024/10/25/new-acquisitions-1933-and-the-definition-of-fascism/ https://acoup.blog/2024/10/25/new-acquisitions-1933-and-the-...
  - ezst 8mo ago
    …and another one, much less academic in style and substance, but no less informative and relevant: https://scribe.rip/@carmitage/i-researched-every-attempt-to-stop-fascism-in-history-the-success-rate-is-0-a665e2e048a2 https://scribe.rip/@carmitage/i-researched-every-attempt-to-...
    - Kaibeezy 8mo ago
      Add the Umberto Eco Ur-Fascism linked below.
    - Jensson 8mo ago
      > I researched every Democratic attempt to stop fascism in history. the success rate after fascists were elected was 0%. Ergo Trump isn't fascist since he already was elected and democracy removed him once before. Otherwise they have to say that there has been one successful attempt for democracy to remove a fascist. Only reason Trump won the last election was that the democrats failed so hard at coming up with good candidates, if they had someone as good as John Biden before dementia Trump would have lost, trying to hide his dementia is why Trump rules today.
csense 8mo ago
Everyone's paying a lot of attention to how bad Trump is, or the midterms. My question is, what happens in 2028? How much of current policy is something the majority of Republican voters (let alone the American people) or the political class actually want and would do without Trump to lead them? How much is only being implemented due to Trump's choices, political style and cult of personality? (Assuming Constitutional safeguards remain strong enough that Trump can't find a way to remain in power past his current term; if Trump is still President in 2029, the system's seriously broken down and all bets are off.) Will the US say "Wait a minute, things went too far, now that he's gone we need more checks and balances before another President tries to repeat what just happened" like when they added term limits to the Constitution after FDR, or some of the post-Watergate limits imposed on the Presidency? Or will Trump's redefinition of government power become normalized, like the redefinition of government power that happened with the Patriot Act, TSA security theater, NSA spying on US citizens, etc. after 9/11 that was justified as anti-terrorism? Those policies were never unwound even though the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq are over, Osama bin Laden is dead, and there have been no more attacks on that scale.
- tartoran 8mo ago
  I don't think things are going back to how they were before Trump and will only continue in the same direction unless midterm elections don't get canceled/abused, and in that case Trump would get impeached. But that doesn't mean too much. There are fundamental problems that Democrats were unwilling to tackle and are likely to do nothing about.
- cogman10 8mo ago
  I'm, frankly, terrified for 2 reasons. First up, I don't think the republican party moderates in 2029. The Trump mentality is the new normal and I believe republicans are just going to keep trying to be as fascist as possible as long as possible. We've learned that there are basically no limits on a corrupt presidency and I really fear what that will mean for any future republican president. But secondly, I'm afraid that Democrats aren't rising to the occasion. They aren't putting forward meaningful reforms or changes to address the fascism. In terms of ICE, a lot of them are trying to put forward meaningless reforms like "let's give them more training" or "let's put their names in a QR code". The entire agency needs nuremberg style trials at this point and some Dems want to give them a weekend meeting with HR. These two facts scare the shit out of me. Because, my fear is we will see a repeat of 2024 in 2032. Assuming we have free and fair elections, I can see a Democrat becoming president in 2028, doing nothing to address the systemic problems exposed by trump, and ultimately a new republican will be voted in in 2032 because people are sick of nothing getting better under democrats. And that 2032 republican president will ultimately know they can do everything Trump did and they'll be cheered on by the base. Democrats need to be messaging about real positive changes they'll make.
renewiltord 8mo ago
It's true. This kind of authoritarian state violence is pretty reminiscent of fascism. Especially what looks like a gangland execution of a man who could only ever be described as exercising his 2A rights by carrying a firearm undrawn legally under his CCW. However, the list of things that have been called fascism are so long that I have to admit that my eyes initially glazed over the headline because many things have been described as fascism. The US was supposedly ruled by a fascist in 2018: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/09/11/books/review/jason-stanley-how-fascism-works.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/09/11/books/review/jason-stanle... There was also supposedly fascism coming in 2016: https://www.brookings.edu/articles/this-is-how-fascism-comes-to-america/ https://www.brookings.edu/articles/this-is-how-fascism-comes... https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0962629816300506 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S09626... And yet we had elections in 2020. So whatever, it was clearly not authoritarian fascism because we had free elections that the authoritarian fascist was ousted in. So what I think I experienced there was semantic satiation with the word fascism. EDIT: To clarify position vis a vis reply, I am simply saying that I have heard the word 'fascism' so much I don't really react with any sense when someone says it. It's like hearing 'rape' or 'spying' on Hacker News. I assume it means "I was shown a banner ad for toothpaste after searching for toothpaste". In other contexts those words have negative valence of great significance. In this context, I just glaze over. Likewise, the word 'fascism' from a left-leaning outlet could be anything from the end of medicare subsidies to a drone strike on an Islamic fundamentalist general to charging fares on a train. Just sharing how I feel about it. It does not have that emotional strength that it originally felt.
- convolvatron 8mo ago
  you're saying that because as recently as 10 years ago, some people were warning about fascism taking hold in the United States, and even though they turned out to be right, they should have held off using that word until we reached this moment, where no sensible person would argue.
  - UncleMeat 8mo ago
    And it isn't even like it was different people. Donald Trump has been the protagonist of the GOP for ten years. The people who were saying "this is creeping fascism" were saying it about the same guy who is doing it now.
lamontcg 8mo ago
People are kind of missing the fact that you can draw a line from slave catchers and slave patrols to ICE. You don't have to go through Germany.
- selecsosi 8mo ago
  If anything, there's lots of writing on how Germany was ultimately inspired by socio-political events here in the USA on how to conduct their fascist behavior.
  - twistah 8mo ago
    Read "Hitler's American Model". He loved what the American South was doing; the Nuremberg Race Laws were directly inspired by Jim Crow.
- njhnjhnjhnjh 8mo ago
  [flagged]
- TrnsltLife 8mo ago
  Not really. Slaves were brought here against their will. Illegal immigrants snuck in against ours.
  - Acatalepsy 8mo ago
    So what? Are you're saying what ICE is doing is justified somehow?
    - throwerxyz 8mo ago
      Let me check. Population of democracy vote for something. President of democracy enacts stronger power for that something. That something gets done. People who disagree with democratic powers doing what they said they were going to do want to stop it by force. That something now gets done, by force. --- Sounds justified because it is.
ezst 8mo ago
> So the United States, once the world’s exemplary liberal democracy, is now a hybrid state combining a fascist leader and a liberal Constitution; but no, it has not fallen to fascism. And it will not. That's some optimism right there.
- blibble 8mo ago
  > world’s exemplary liberal democracy this has never been the case either, unless you're listening to USian television/movies
  - acqq 8mo ago
    European, not accidentally, also mostly deliver the same, misleading, narrative.
- zombot 8mo ago
  And once Trump feels secure enough, he will also behead Congress, or at least many of its members. Maybe he wants to keep it as a convenient puppet show. Remember that this is just 1 year into his 2nd term. There is still much time for making things worse.
113 8mo ago
[flagged]
- njhnjhnjhnjh 8mo ago
  [flagged]
  - fugalfervor 8mo ago
    Is it against the rules to call fascism fascism? That's pretty disturbing.
    - njhnjhnjhnjh 8mo ago
      Why is the post flagged? Obviously it's against the rules. edit: I challenge you to post a comment labelling the United States government "fascists" in this front-page thread about ICE: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46756117 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46756117 It won't stay up for long.
      - deleted 8mo ago
        [deleted]
        deleted 8mo ago
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      - fugalfervor 8mo ago
        Why is a brand new account (yours) rushing to flagged threads with the party line? It looks like you registered just to post in this thread.
        RealityVoid 8mo ago
        I _think_ it's satire?
learingsci 8mo ago
Trump needs we better critics. Heck, we all need better Trump critics. This unfortunately is more of the same; doing more harm than good.
- twistah 8mo ago
  [dead]
- RealityVoid 8mo ago
  I think your point is true, better critique helps dismantling post-truth populism. I also think the article is correct in its assessment and is a good critique for a certain segment of the population. It might be true that it won't persuade any trumpers though. Not sure you can persuade them with articles.
  - learingsci 8mo ago
    The author wrote a book about how America needs to reembrace Christianity. A review of that book said it was unclear who the book was for, given that the author is a homosexual atheist Jew. I would say that applies to this article too. As you note, it won’t convince Trump voters of anything. Its only utility is for those who already think Trump is a fascist, a term that the author himself says is basically meaningless. It merely makes those who agree with its conclusion feel good and click links. Signal detection theory tells us more noise makes signals harder to detect. So the article is counterproductive. Ok, meets the authors definition of fascist; so what?
protastus 8mo ago
The Trump administration has gone so far down the path of fascism and crime that I'm convinced they don't simply want to be in power indefinitely -- they need it. Otherwise, the moment a law-abiding president gets elected, there will be criminal charges against all involved. And there's no statute of limitations for murder. I believe this country will need massive investigations and criminal trials to heal. I am concerned with what happens in between, but this is reality as I see it.
- queenkjuul 8mo ago
  No chance in hell Democrats do a single thing to these people when they're out of power. If anything it'll be a Democrat justifying more ICE shootings so as "not to look weak on immigration"
- mnicky 8mo ago
  Didn't the same happen after Biden was elected? And see, it achieved nothing, regrettably...
  - protastus 8mo ago
    No, it didn't. Order was not restored, criminals were encouraged, and here we are.
    - mnicky 8mo ago
      I should have put it differently. I'm afraid that maximum what will be realistically done will be similar to the situation after the Biden got elected. And that didn't help.
    - wrs 8mo ago
      There were investigations. There were indictments (including four of Trump himself). Here we are. What we learned is that the only constitutional remedy is impeachment (which was also tried twice). What has disabled all the checks and balances is the knife-edge Congressional majority, the takeover of the judiciary, and the purging of the civil service. Changing the President stops the active craziness but doesn't address the underlying problem.
jLaForest 8mo ago
[flagged]
- mickle00 8mo ago
  fwiw it's been flagged and unflagged four times since I posted. I don't know the algorithm -- but it's been great to see whomever is unflagging understanding the importance and significance of this issue and relevance to hackers everywhere.
  - jLaForest 8mo ago
    And here it remains flagged... I wonder why?
- deleted 8mo ago
  [deleted]
- dang 8mo ago
  HN has had numerous major frontpage threads that are critical of this administration. Not enough to satisfy those who want more, but that is a separate issue.
  - jLaForest 8mo ago
    Yes I know because I've read through several right before they are predictably taken down. But yes I will take your word and stop believing my eyes and ears...
  - smw 8mo ago
    Hey, I think you're a superhero for making this place such wonderful forum for deep and interesting conversation, but isn't there some point where you might consider putting your finger on the scale to help stop the slide into authoritarianism? This seems like the moment, maybe?
    - jLaForest 8mo ago
      It's a matter of taking his finger off the scale... Stop taking down threads with productive discussion just because they conflict with your worldview (and financial interests)
mistermaster1 8mo ago
[flagged]
- usernomdeguerre 8mo ago
  So the only point someone could conceivably write this article, in your mind, would be the moment after its writers and platforms would be subjected to state-sanctioned punishment for uttering it? I'll accept a little front-running then, if you don't mind.
  - mistermaster1 8mo ago
    No they could write it in another state, anonymously, or on more underground/less mainstream established platforms than one of the oldest publications in the history of the republic. More like what’s happening with regards to Iran. Also, front-running also implies that there’s an order for fascism coming up. So the intent of establishing fascism is preceded by a bungled and visibly brutal and horribly implemented performative “operation” that this massacre by ICE is? That makes no sense. This is not an order for fascism that an article is sort of front-running protectively. The better analogy is a media entity predictably calling one extremely messed up thing another extremely messed up thing, and leaving a massive vulnerability for their side. Messed-up-thing-promoting folks will use articles like this a year from now after ICE ceases operations, effectively issuing a silent “apology” of sorts and curtailing the violence, to promote the next messed up thing they want to do (which may be less messed up than the ICE massacres but still would be quite messed up and avoidable). Every pessimistic approximation isnt always good. We lose credibility when we keep doing it.
- donkey_brains 8mo ago
  Ah yes, the “no true fascism” fallacy. Thanks for posting your half-thought out defense of the party that is murdering citizens in the street! I’m sure they appreciate your attempts to keep their jackboots shiny.
  - mistermaster1 8mo ago
    Can you point out how I was defending a party? I’m simply saying that the US isn’t a fascist state yet. We can engage, debate and discuss. People are actively out in the streets of MSP and watching and confronting these agents and the incidents are being documented, spread widely and analyzed. Calling it fascism isn’t productive nor is it even front running. I am willing to bet against any of you that this insanity perpetrated by poorly trained or untrained agents running amok in the midwest will be old news by the end of the year and no not because it has been subsumed by some worse class of atrocities. It will have ended, ICE will have ceased these sort of unchecked “operarions” and largely due to public outrage and scrutiny. Actual outrage, scrutiny and genuine activism, not writing articles from an armchair that mischaracterize this as fascism or racism. That sort of thing only perpetuates and makes the rabid crazies who actually support these actions in light of the tragedies sink their jackboots in even harder and empowers them more despite them being in the minority.
touwer 8mo ago
The most scaring and amazing thing is not Trump himself, but all the people (suddenly) supporting him and being silent (including too many Democrats) in order to keep their position or for for opportunistic purposes. And destroying democracy along the way. Just like all the secret police agents in Iran or the henchmen of Hitler. CEO's of bigtech. Crypto-libertarians. Too many people are sucking up to wannabe dictators when the moment is there
- acqq 8mo ago
  Only somebody who isn't aware of whose "Congress speech received multiple standing ovations, touted 'most by any world leader'" would be surprised by that bipartisan support you mention. That happened in 2024, before Trump began his second term, but shows how the system works.
- WickyNilliams 8mo ago
  Same pattern played out in Germany. The centrists were more concerned with leftists than Hitler. Big business thought they could cosy up to him and keep him under control. Opportunistic collaboration for self preservation or personal benefit. Of course these all turned out to be grave miscalculations. I imagine that pattern will eventually play out this time too...
  - wrs 8mo ago
    Is it possible their only miscalculation was not realizing how much of the world would fight back? Because if it hadn't, they would have continued enjoying the benefits.
    - WickyNilliams 8mo ago
      No I don't think so. Broadly they hitched their cart to a genocidal madman. Their hubris convinced them they could maintain a steer on its direction. The centrists ultimately lost when the Nazis banned other political parties. If they were not murdered first. And the Nazis took control of the German workforce, imposed harsh taxation on businesses, central planning, nationalization etc. I'm sure the uneasy alliance worked well for a a little while though!
messe 8mo ago
This should not have been flagged off the front page. I really worry for the people in the US, but I'm hopeful it's hegemony is ending.
- Zigurd 8mo ago
  Techno accelerationists don't like to be reminded of their complicity.
  - tavavex 8mo ago
    I don't think accelerationists would mind - even if they believe that what's happening is wrong, going further in is the backbone of the whole ideology, so why would they be having second thoughts? I think the real group behind this is people who are capable of sensing that this is wrong at least on some deeper level, but who are so complacent that they just want not to think about it too much. Maybe it's because they're in too deep, maybe they make too much money off of it to care, maybe their heels are too dug in on social issues for them to ever try to reconsider. Possibly a combination of any of the three.
  - nicbou 8mo ago
    Every thread about US politics has this comment, and the same response: this is not the right outlet, and some people feel like this content does not fit the topic of the website. If you are not American, it’s rather tiring to have every website and news outlet talk about it ad nauseum, and have it take over every subreddit and conversation. Americans get all uppity when you tell them that you don’t want that, as if their news are so important that they transcend categorisation. I care. It’s important. It’s just not the right website.
    - senordevnyc 8mo ago
      Then go ignore it on your country’s version of HN.
    - datsci_est_2015 8mo ago
      You will be affected by the (hypothetical) fall of American hegemony, whether it’s increased aggression in spheres of influence (Russia, China, India), market failures, or even a fracturing or collapse of digital services (Azure, AWS). I don’t understand the insistence that this isn’t on topic. Hard not to paint it as anything but willfully ignorant.
throwworhtthrow 8mo ago
It's not just Trump. Look at how even the weak Republican pushback is framed. They have no moral objection to his actions, only for the risk of blowback. See Ted Cruz's remarks on Jimmy Kimmel: "[W]hen it is used to silence every conservative in America, we will regret it." Or Brett Kavanaugh on Lisa Cook: that Trump shouldn't dismiss her because "what goes around comes around [...] if there's a Democrat president". This is the moderate Republican position: no concern for the harm caused to people on the political left, only concern that they on the right might not get away with it. The MAGA position is, as this article shows, much worse.
- throwerxyz 8mo ago
  Imagine voting for a party that wants to build more housing to solve the housing problem. Now imagine the people who don't want more housing (for some reason) end up burning all new houses being built in a state. Now imagine crying about how the people who want the houses to be built to solve the problem are still wanting more houses to be built. Turns out it's harder to solve a housing problem when the houses keep getting burnt down. Who'd have thunk?
deleted 8mo ago
[deleted]
ValveFan6969 8mo ago
Shooting people for speaking is also fascism but they won't say that.
- xnx 8mo ago
  [flagged]
- zahlman 8mo ago
  Who was shot for speaking?
eudamoniac 8mo ago
I read through every comment in this thread and no one seems to be addressing that the people voted for this. They'll probably vote for it again in the midterms and/or 2028. You're despairing over a democratic outcome. What do you actually propose that would fix this? Disenfranchise half the country? Outlaw things people are voting for to happen? Any criticism needs to address how we democratically counter this regime, how this makes sense when this is the voted upon regime, or perhaps make an argument for why democracy has failed. My perspective is that a scale has tipped, a critical mass of people decided they want this sort of thing, and they got it. It wasn't rigged, it wasn't fraudulent, it was a democratic election. Critique democracy itself, or the criticism is incoherent. Make an argument for why a government should be disallowed from doing things that the voters want it to do.
- thrance 8mo ago
  I actually think disenfranchisement is the only solution. Nazis didn't change their worldview after the war ended, they were shamed for them and learned to hide. Republicans are now defending straight-up murder in broad daylight by federal forces. I doubt there's anything that could change their minds at this point, they're too far gone.
- xnx 8mo ago
  > Disenfranchise half the country? Way more than half the country was disenfranchised in the last election. Best case scenario (and very unlikely scenario): blue sweep in the next elections and then massive electoral reform.
  - jemmyw 8mo ago
    Electoral reform is really hard for parties just voted in by that election system. Suddenly they see the good in that which they had previously seen as bad.
  - zahlman 8mo ago
    > Way more than half the country was disenfranchised in the last election. Over 152 million votes were cast, representing more than 64% turnout among those eligible to vote (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2024_United_States_presidential_election https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2024_United_States_presidentia...). The USA has about 342 million people, and over 18% of them are age 14 or younger (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_the_United_Sta...) and at least some of them are 15-17 (citation needed). So clearly, doing some arithmetic, there are fewer than 304 million adults. Not only was "half the country" not "disenfranchised", literally a majority of adults actually voted (and this is not even considering that not all adults were statutorily allowed to vote in the first place).
JohnTHaller 8mo ago
Link for once flagged: https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/2026/01/america-fascism-trump-maga-ice/685751/ https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/2026/01/america-fascism-tr...
- judahmeek 8mo ago
  You can also view flagged posts through https://news.ycombinator.com/active https://news.ycombinator.com/active
stellalo 8mo ago
This should not be flagged. Flagging this: that’s fascism.
- Schmerika 8mo ago
  HN has always had topics that aren't permitted to be discussed; no matter how relevant or how popular, or how polite the discussions are. However, this past year has been extreme. Seeing how everything related to Musk and DOGE was removed, for example, was extraordinary. Anyone who thinks this forum lives up to its rhetoric is simply flat wrong. This place is now a testament to the effectiveness of clever censorship.
  - tim333 8mo ago
    It's more tech not politics.
    - Schmerika 8mo ago
      Politics is not and was never barred from HN, if that was your point. And, rising fascism would/does directly and massively affect every tech worker in the US. But we're talking about HN censoring topics, in general - not just politics. I'll give you an example with a tech story I commented on just 3 hours ago [0]. Sourced from the BBC, with a correct headline, not a dupe, generating discussion, upvoted, relevant, important, and in every possible way squarely within HN's remit: But it mentioned Musk in a bad light. Not only was it flagged, but it was some new kind of uber-flagged. It no longer shows up in new. It doesn't show up in the OP's submissions list. It doesn't show up in my favorites list. You can't comment on it. The link and even the title were completely removed. That's sheer insanity. Absolutely extraordinary and wholly, completely unjustifiable. And if you or I were to make a post about this wild level of censorship of a legitimate and important tech story, it would be rapidly removed also. Most likely, you'd be banned if you kept trying (for something completely different, no doubt). So can we please not pretend that stories about Musk and fascism are being removed for being 'political'. The YC people have picked their dog in this fight, and are very much trying to tip the scales in their favour by censoring the users of this platform. 0 - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46764789 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46764789
dev_256 8mo ago
[flagged]
shalmanese 8mo ago
“For another, the term has been overused to the point of meaninglessness, especially by left-leaning types who call you a fascist if you oppose abortion or affirmative action.” The left was right too early. Whereas I, the enlightened centrist was right and just the right time.
blks 8mo ago
Everyone having doubts, just wait until it’s time for the new presidential election, and see if power will be given up willingly. Hopefully old man won’t be around that long
- scruple 8mo ago
  Is this common belief grounded in reality? We're well past the notion that the "old man" (and his VP, as well as most, if not all of his cabinet) believes in the law and he has stacked the deck in his favor.
  - neogodless 8mo ago
    To beat a dead horse, propaganda works. And it's so much more pervasive than an occasional misleading message. Millions in the U.S. get "information" from a firehose of propaganda. That defines the reality they see. Others perhaps just feel hopeless but... want to believe that our constitutional democracy somehow manages to hold on and rebound.
    - scruple 8mo ago
      It is exhausting and frustrating. What level of evidence is required here? And why? It's not unlike the article. Do we need to wait around for firing squads or something? What does it take for people to wake up?
      - neogodless 8mo ago
        A man doing no more than holding a communication device in the presence of federally assigned bounty hunters was shot at, and executed, by several of them. Not a big delta between that and firing squad.
ZeroGravitas 8mo ago
It's useful to rewind and see the tests people put in place before the thing happened. Like this VOX article surveying experts on fascism in 2015 and then revisiting in 2020: https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/21521958/what-is-fascism-signs-donald-trump https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/21521958/what-is-fas... > But there is still no state management of the economy here (as there was to a degree in Nazi Germany and fascist Italy). Trump is content to aid business by reducing government protections of the environment and of workers … and his economic policy is mainly just to let businessmen do what they want. Well, we can check that one off the list with 2024 hindsight. >He’s never actually done a Putin and tried to make himself a permanent president, let alone suggest any coherent plan for overthrowing the constitutional system. And I don’t even think that’s in his mind And another one bites the dust. Note that all the scholars who get very technical on what they want to call Fascist all compare him to Marcos, Erdogan, Milosovic. That's still not a good review.
grajmanu 8mo ago
I am glad that atleast some journalists writes about this in the US+West. In India, there is little to no resistance, contemporary culture is flooded, institutions are tamed, media houses are strong armed or bought entirely and there is no one on the streets fighting the tyranny.
EchoReflection 8mo ago
The loose application of "fascism" to disliked ideas reflects a culture of perpetual outrage and victimhood, diluting the term's historical weight.
- EchoReflection 8mo ago
  https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/the-atlantic/ https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/the-atlantic/ The Atlantic – Bias and Credibility LEFT-CENTER BIAS These media sources have a slight to moderate liberal bias. They often publish factual information that utilizes loaded words (wording that attempts to influence an audience by appeals to emotion or stereotypes) to favor liberal causes. These sources are generally trustworthy for information but may require further investigation https://profrjstarr.com/the-psychology-of-us/the-need-to-be-offended-a-psychological-look-at-outrage-culture https://profrjstarr.com/the-psychology-of-us/the-need-to-be-... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outrage_porn https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outrage_porn https://www.npr.org/2019/10/09/768489375/how-outrage-is-hijacking-our-culture-and-our-minds https://www.npr.org/2019/10/09/768489375/how-outrage-is-hija... https://theconversation.com/outrage-culture-is-a-big-toxic-problem-why-do-we-take-part-and-how-can-we-stop-223645 https://theconversation.com/outrage-culture-is-a-big-toxic-p...
mistermaster1 8mo ago
[dead]
scotty79 8mo ago
I think flagging thresholds might need to raised. It's way too easy to supress anything controversial nowadays.

680 points by mickle00 8mo ago

https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/the-nation/ https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/the-nation/ https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/atlantic-media/ https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/atlantic-media/ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outrage_porn https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outrage_porn https://www.reddit.com/r/RedditForGrownups/comments/dvyd48/what_do_you_think_of_the_concept_of_outrage/ https://www.reddit.com/r/RedditForGrownups/comments/dvyd48/w... https://therapygroupdc.com/therapist-dc-blog/why-we-snap-understanding-the-psychology-of-online-outrage/ https://therapygroupdc.com/therapist-dc-blog/why-we-snap-und...

defrost 8mo ago
If you're unable to make an actual comment in your own words, then perhaps you might take your link regurgitation to an appropriate link aggregator site. Elsewhere. I'm guessing the existence of two sites, both rated [HIGH] for factual accuracy, give you a sense of outrage when you read accurate facts?

vga42 8mo ago

Non-paywalled article here: https://archive.is/Maalh https://archive.is/Maalh

jmclnx 8mo ago

No doubt with that, ICE seems to be able to kill when and whomever they want. ICE looks close to the brown shirts in Germany in the 30s.

cookszn 8mo ago
[dead]
noitpmeder 8mo ago
They're basically jackboots, I have to imagine almost entirely composed of the republican far right. Just imagine the echo chamber that exists within their ranks. They literally just murdered someone in cold blood. Textbook execution without trial. And have some of the most powerful people in the world saying how brave they are and how great of a job they did executing their duty. Their entire recruiting process has the effect of self selecting for the exact kind of person who is significantly more likely to shoot an unarmed nonviolent protestor. If I recall correctly they even have notably higher salary and signing bonuses compared to similar agencies, which could be (decent pessimistically) interpreted as a way to hoover up more recruits with questionable moral bases. "Oh I really don't think ICE is doing the right thing, but oh boy sign me up for that cash baby".
- mickle00 8mo ago
  ICE being the highest funded U.S. law enforcement agency is so sad, and so fucked https://www.kuow.org/stories/how-ice-grew-to-be-the-highest-funded-u-s-law-enforcement-agency https://www.kuow.org/stories/how-ice-grew-to-be-the-highest-...

testing22321 8mo ago

The parallels it dark times in history are too strong to ignore. The only question now is will the people be able to stop the takeover before it’s too late.

jay_kyburz 8mo ago
After reading this piece I was wondering if there were any examples of a fascist state that were deposed by peace, or whether armed conflict is now inevitable.
- freitasm 8mo ago
  There are few, Spain's King Juan Carlos I being crowned king after Francisco Franco's death, and Chile's Pinochet leaving power after the 1988 referendum for example.
  - ks2048 8mo ago
    If 15 years of dictatorship is one of the few positive examples, that is not a good sign.
    - card_zero 8mo ago
      Well how many examples have there been anyway? Maybe six, under a range of definitions? Besides, historicism (inevitabilism) is wrong.
      - jay_kyburz 8mo ago
        I agree, and I wish I was able to delete the post. I thought afterwards the question itself is a little poor taste.
- karmakurtisaani 8mo ago
  I think Spain transitioned from fascist dictatorship to democracy relatively peacefully.

marksbrown 8mo ago

https://archive.is/pbT6z https://archive.is/pbT6z

p4bl0 8mo ago
If someone is able to access this, would it be possible to copy-paste the article content somewhere else? I'm stuck in a broken captcha loop.
- renewiltord 8mo ago
  Everyone is Cloudflare anti-DDoS protected these days. Even pastebin. But perhaps it works https://pastebin.com/fHXz3eHG https://pastebin.com/fHXz3eHG
  - blibble 8mo ago
    I wouldn't bet on the holding, the cloudflare CEO didn't seem above licking the ring https://x.com/eastdakota/status/2009654937303896492 https://x.com/eastdakota/status/2009654937303896492 he's even using their rhetoric ("DISGUSTING")
    - Imustaskforhelp 8mo ago
      Crazy that I had to still defend him in one of the posts when I mentioned cf vs italy. but in no way or form I endorse cf I do have my domain name in them but I have been lazy to migrate out with cf tunnels but I definitely hope that I can have courage to muster to migrate my domains and cf tunnels alternative and everything. Edit: Looks like we were talking about the same thing, y'know what's crazy is that there are some points in which I can justify cloudflare but in no way or form should they try to speak the rheoteric or something. Like just call spade a spade and we can understand it that in this case italy is wrong but the fact that he had to speak in the rheoteric or even spoke in first place is why I also don't really like cloudflare & think that the internet should move away from 12% traffic being in cloudflare Hope that I am able to explain that italy vs cf, I feel like italy's in the wrong but overall cf with its CEO rheoteric is wrong too and as you mention, he isn't above kissing the ring and we probably need alternatives too.

fugalfervor 8mo ago

I am so terribly disturbed by the ICE shootings (and killings). There is no justification for them. This is supposed to be a nation of laws and the rights of those shot (to say nothing of those abducted and harassed, beaten, or removed without due process) has been so grossly violated that it's hard to believe. My heart aches for the countless victims of this band of fascists in the executive branch.

RealityVoid 8mo ago
> I am so terribly disturbed by the ICE shootings (and killings). There is no justification for them. I think they are simply poorly trained people that are given free reign. The results are disastrous. They probably don't wake up thinking "Today I'm going to murder someone" but they just don't realize what they're doing. I'm not sure how it's at the destructiveness scale at this moment, but these organizations can and it probably will get much worse as their internal culture morphs into more directly aggressive stance. The shootings were incredibly dumb, and it's pretty much what one would expect when they create this kind of situation. Listening to the "Revolutions" podcast I realized situations like these are incredibly common all along history, you have armed people with tense spirits, a gun goes off and tragedy ensues. The most terrible part of all of this is the reaction of the authorities that lie, gaslight and support these people, get them off the hook and this reaction will only generate more violence and more deaths as ICE realizes they _really can_ act with impunity.
- idiotsecant 8mo ago
  There are absolutely people in this group who woke up hoping they got an excuse to murder someone. You interact with the entire gamut of human experience every day, but you never know which ones are the secret heroes and which ones are the secret concentration camp guards until they're presented with the right set of circumstances. It's as much a mistake to assume that everyone is relatively moral as it is to assume that everyone is relatively evil.
  - RealityVoid 8mo ago
    I agree with you, I just assume that the percentage of completely evil people is much smaller than most people think, but large enough that you interact with them regularly. And that you can get good people to do evil things if you put them in the right situation.

RealityVoid 8mo ago

I actually think that there is an amalgam of ideologies here (I know, so very fascist of them). Trump is more of a monarchist. A lot of the people supporting him are outright fascists. Some are plain idiots. Them winning absolute control over the country would be a disaster for their movement though. They'd turn to internal fighting, the entropy of victory and all that. And they don't seem terribly competent with governance, it would probably turn off a lot of smart people, so the country would lose a lot of its capabilities. EDIT: Also, there are funny things going on with the political submissions. I think there is active interference going on, they get flagged almost immediately. This got flagged and unflagged in the space of a couple minutes, so thanks to the mod team they are letting it up, I think there is important conversation to be had here.

fugalfervor 8mo ago
Stephen Miller is a fascist, no doubt about it. Even if Trump is not a fascist, per se, he's following the advice of -- and delegating authority to -- the fascists that surround him.
Tostino 8mo ago
And Germany would have been a much larger country economically if Hitler was executed after his first coup attempt. The Weimar government didn't choose that path though, and went for civility. The brain drain was massive, both before the war, and even more so after. That didn't stop the peasant minded from supporting the Nazi regime though. They got to punish the people who they were told made them poor. I live in FL, so I get to interact daily with people who are cheering for this crackdown, and have said the equivalent of "those rioters (protestors) should be put down in the street". I don't have much hope for where our country is headed. The flags on any type of post like this are absolutely ridiculous. Glad the mods are at least for now letting this one stand.
mickle00 8mo ago
It's sad that these posts are now seemingly disappearing from /active in addition to the home page They are very relevant to the current state of affairs in America, with respect to tech, immigration, startups, and the hacker ethos

ClownsAbound 8mo ago

[dead]

wslh 8mo ago

I don’t understand how there aren’t demonstrations happening almost everywhere in the US by now.

cookszn 8mo ago
Yea let me go protest the government on behalf of foreigners illegally crossing the border!
quercus 8mo ago
Because most people are happy to see immigration laws enforced.
- mingus88 8mo ago
  Then why isn’t ICE in the states with the most immigrants?
  - cookszn 8mo ago
    Immigrants? or illegal immigrants? There’s a huge distinction between an immigrant coming with a visa/green card with a set job and education (net positive to the country)
  - mickle00 8mo ago
    logic would indicate that its either (or both) (1) its not about immigration (it's about power and control thru fear) or (2) they're idiots
    - mingus88 8mo ago
      Agreed. If this were about enforcing immigration law, they would first focus on red states with huge immigrant populations, where they would have full cooperation from the local government and citizens who overwhelmingly voted for Trump. Those supporters who care about enforcing immigration laws would directly benefit. This is obviously violence directed at Minnesota, who is led by a political opponent. It’s capital F Fascism and everyone on the right has grandfathers that are ashamed of them.

p4bl0 8mo ago

An additional short read which is really worth it: Il fascismo eterno by Umberto Eco, in which the author describes 14 properties of fascists regimes. It's been translated in English as Ur-fascism and is available online for free at the anarchist library: https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/umberto-eco-ur-fascism https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/umberto-eco-ur-fasci....

solaire_oa 8mo ago
To be honest, I found this essay a bit meandering and I lost interest in reading the whole thing (coming off the heels of re-reading Civil Disobedience, which by comparison is immediately forthright and to the point). Skipping ahead to the 14 properties, however, points 5, 7, 11, and 12 are probably the most evident in the present moment.
- frm88 8mo ago
  Bret Deveraux, the American historian, did an analysis in 2024 of Eco's essay with focus on Trump and found all 14 were already a check: https://acoup.blog/2024/10/25/new-acquisitions-1933-and-the-definition-of-fascism/ https://acoup.blog/2024/10/25/new-acquisitions-1933-and-the-...
  - solaire_oa 8mo ago
    Oh, having a historian's translation of the essay is legitimately helpful for understanding how the the points relate in the current climate, thank you. And I love acoup.blog, separately (tangentially related, I was legitimately crestfallen when he linked the formations of the orc army to the enduring, permeating, trans-generational success of Nazi propaganda https://acoup.blog/2019/05/24/collections-the-siege-of-gondor-part-iii-having-fun-storming-the-city/ https://acoup.blog/2019/05/24/collections-the-siege-of-gondo...)

Kaibeezy 8mo ago

If you are debating whether to read this article, read it. It’s comprehensive and precise, and although political in substance, not political in form — test-fitting an imprecise definition. The fact it also reaches a firm conclusion (spoiler alert right there in the title) is depoliticized by allowing for malleable application. A benchmark article I will now go share elsewhere. What’s left to talk about? How to react. How it ends. Where we likely go from there. Where we should go.

lossolo 8mo ago
> How it ends. Where we likely go from there. I highly recommend Anniversary https://www.imdb.com/title/tt12583926/ https://www.imdb.com/title/tt12583926/
azakai 8mo ago
If this interested you, here is another detailed and precise article by a historian, on the same topic: https://acoup.blog/2024/10/25/new-acquisitions-1933-and-the-definition-of-fascism/ https://acoup.blog/2024/10/25/new-acquisitions-1933-and-the-...
- ezst 8mo ago
  …and another one, much less academic in style and substance, but no less informative and relevant: https://scribe.rip/@carmitage/i-researched-every-attempt-to-stop-fascism-in-history-the-success-rate-is-0-a665e2e048a2 https://scribe.rip/@carmitage/i-researched-every-attempt-to-...
  - Kaibeezy 8mo ago
    Add the Umberto Eco Ur-Fascism linked below.
  - Jensson 8mo ago
    > I researched every Democratic attempt to stop fascism in history. the success rate after fascists were elected was 0%. Ergo Trump isn't fascist since he already was elected and democracy removed him once before. Otherwise they have to say that there has been one successful attempt for democracy to remove a fascist. Only reason Trump won the last election was that the democrats failed so hard at coming up with good candidates, if they had someone as good as John Biden before dementia Trump would have lost, trying to hide his dementia is why Trump rules today.

csense 8mo ago

Everyone's paying a lot of attention to how bad Trump is, or the midterms. My question is, what happens in 2028? How much of current policy is something the majority of Republican voters (let alone the American people) or the political class actually want and would do without Trump to lead them? How much is only being implemented due to Trump's choices, political style and cult of personality? (Assuming Constitutional safeguards remain strong enough that Trump can't find a way to remain in power past his current term; if Trump is still President in 2029, the system's seriously broken down and all bets are off.) Will the US say "Wait a minute, things went too far, now that he's gone we need more checks and balances before another President tries to repeat what just happened" like when they added term limits to the Constitution after FDR, or some of the post-Watergate limits imposed on the Presidency? Or will Trump's redefinition of government power become normalized, like the redefinition of government power that happened with the Patriot Act, TSA security theater, NSA spying on US citizens, etc. after 9/11 that was justified as anti-terrorism? Those policies were never unwound even though the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq are over, Osama bin Laden is dead, and there have been no more attacks on that scale.

tartoran 8mo ago
I don't think things are going back to how they were before Trump and will only continue in the same direction unless midterm elections don't get canceled/abused, and in that case Trump would get impeached. But that doesn't mean too much. There are fundamental problems that Democrats were unwilling to tackle and are likely to do nothing about.
cogman10 8mo ago
I'm, frankly, terrified for 2 reasons. First up, I don't think the republican party moderates in 2029. The Trump mentality is the new normal and I believe republicans are just going to keep trying to be as fascist as possible as long as possible. We've learned that there are basically no limits on a corrupt presidency and I really fear what that will mean for any future republican president. But secondly, I'm afraid that Democrats aren't rising to the occasion. They aren't putting forward meaningful reforms or changes to address the fascism. In terms of ICE, a lot of them are trying to put forward meaningless reforms like "let's give them more training" or "let's put their names in a QR code". The entire agency needs nuremberg style trials at this point and some Dems want to give them a weekend meeting with HR. These two facts scare the shit out of me. Because, my fear is we will see a repeat of 2024 in 2032. Assuming we have free and fair elections, I can see a Democrat becoming president in 2028, doing nothing to address the systemic problems exposed by trump, and ultimately a new republican will be voted in in 2032 because people are sick of nothing getting better under democrats. And that 2032 republican president will ultimately know they can do everything Trump did and they'll be cheered on by the base. Democrats need to be messaging about real positive changes they'll make.

renewiltord 8mo ago

It's true. This kind of authoritarian state violence is pretty reminiscent of fascism. Especially what looks like a gangland execution of a man who could only ever be described as exercising his 2A rights by carrying a firearm undrawn legally under his CCW. However, the list of things that have been called fascism are so long that I have to admit that my eyes initially glazed over the headline because many things have been described as fascism. The US was supposedly ruled by a fascist in 2018: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/09/11/books/review/jason-stanley-how-fascism-works.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/09/11/books/review/jason-stanle... There was also supposedly fascism coming in 2016: https://www.brookings.edu/articles/this-is-how-fascism-comes-to-america/ https://www.brookings.edu/articles/this-is-how-fascism-comes... https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0962629816300506 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S09626... And yet we had elections in 2020. So whatever, it was clearly not authoritarian fascism because we had free elections that the authoritarian fascist was ousted in. So what I think I experienced there was semantic satiation with the word fascism. EDIT: To clarify position vis a vis reply, I am simply saying that I have heard the word 'fascism' so much I don't really react with any sense when someone says it. It's like hearing 'rape' or 'spying' on Hacker News. I assume it means "I was shown a banner ad for toothpaste after searching for toothpaste". In other contexts those words have negative valence of great significance. In this context, I just glaze over. Likewise, the word 'fascism' from a left-leaning outlet could be anything from the end of medicare subsidies to a drone strike on an Islamic fundamentalist general to charging fares on a train. Just sharing how I feel about it. It does not have that emotional strength that it originally felt.

convolvatron 8mo ago
you're saying that because as recently as 10 years ago, some people were warning about fascism taking hold in the United States, and even though they turned out to be right, they should have held off using that word until we reached this moment, where no sensible person would argue.
- UncleMeat 8mo ago
  And it isn't even like it was different people. Donald Trump has been the protagonist of the GOP for ten years. The people who were saying "this is creeping fascism" were saying it about the same guy who is doing it now.

lamontcg 8mo ago

People are kind of missing the fact that you can draw a line from slave catchers and slave patrols to ICE. You don't have to go through Germany.

selecsosi 8mo ago
If anything, there's lots of writing on how Germany was ultimately inspired by socio-political events here in the USA on how to conduct their fascist behavior.
- twistah 8mo ago
  Read "Hitler's American Model". He loved what the American South was doing; the Nuremberg Race Laws were directly inspired by Jim Crow.
njhnjhnjhnjh 8mo ago
[flagged]
TrnsltLife 8mo ago
Not really. Slaves were brought here against their will. Illegal immigrants snuck in against ours.
- Acatalepsy 8mo ago
  So what? Are you're saying what ICE is doing is justified somehow?
  - throwerxyz 8mo ago
    Let me check. Population of democracy vote for something. President of democracy enacts stronger power for that something. That something gets done. People who disagree with democratic powers doing what they said they were going to do want to stop it by force. That something now gets done, by force. --- Sounds justified because it is.

ezst 8mo ago

> So the United States, once the world’s exemplary liberal democracy, is now a hybrid state combining a fascist leader and a liberal Constitution; but no, it has not fallen to fascism. And it will not. That's some optimism right there.

blibble 8mo ago
> world’s exemplary liberal democracy this has never been the case either, unless you're listening to USian television/movies
- acqq 8mo ago
  European, not accidentally, also mostly deliver the same, misleading, narrative.
zombot 8mo ago
And once Trump feels secure enough, he will also behead Congress, or at least many of its members. Maybe he wants to keep it as a convenient puppet show. Remember that this is just 1 year into his 2nd term. There is still much time for making things worse.

113 8mo ago

[flagged]

njhnjhnjhnjh 8mo ago
[flagged]
- fugalfervor 8mo ago
  Is it against the rules to call fascism fascism? That's pretty disturbing.
  - njhnjhnjhnjh 8mo ago
    Why is the post flagged? Obviously it's against the rules. edit: I challenge you to post a comment labelling the United States government "fascists" in this front-page thread about ICE: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46756117 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46756117 It won't stay up for long.
    - deleted 8mo ago
      [deleted]
      - deleted 8mo ago
        [deleted]
    - fugalfervor 8mo ago
      Why is a brand new account (yours) rushing to flagged threads with the party line? It looks like you registered just to post in this thread.
      - RealityVoid 8mo ago
        I _think_ it's satire?

learingsci 8mo ago

Trump needs we better critics. Heck, we all need better Trump critics. This unfortunately is more of the same; doing more harm than good.

twistah 8mo ago
[dead]
RealityVoid 8mo ago
I think your point is true, better critique helps dismantling post-truth populism. I also think the article is correct in its assessment and is a good critique for a certain segment of the population. It might be true that it won't persuade any trumpers though. Not sure you can persuade them with articles.
- learingsci 8mo ago
  The author wrote a book about how America needs to reembrace Christianity. A review of that book said it was unclear who the book was for, given that the author is a homosexual atheist Jew. I would say that applies to this article too. As you note, it won’t convince Trump voters of anything. Its only utility is for those who already think Trump is a fascist, a term that the author himself says is basically meaningless. It merely makes those who agree with its conclusion feel good and click links. Signal detection theory tells us more noise makes signals harder to detect. So the article is counterproductive. Ok, meets the authors definition of fascist; so what?

protastus 8mo ago

The Trump administration has gone so far down the path of fascism and crime that I'm convinced they don't simply want to be in power indefinitely -- they need it. Otherwise, the moment a law-abiding president gets elected, there will be criminal charges against all involved. And there's no statute of limitations for murder. I believe this country will need massive investigations and criminal trials to heal. I am concerned with what happens in between, but this is reality as I see it.

queenkjuul 8mo ago
No chance in hell Democrats do a single thing to these people when they're out of power. If anything it'll be a Democrat justifying more ICE shootings so as "not to look weak on immigration"
mnicky 8mo ago
Didn't the same happen after Biden was elected? And see, it achieved nothing, regrettably...
- protastus 8mo ago
  No, it didn't. Order was not restored, criminals were encouraged, and here we are.
  - mnicky 8mo ago
    I should have put it differently. I'm afraid that maximum what will be realistically done will be similar to the situation after the Biden got elected. And that didn't help.
  - wrs 8mo ago
    There were investigations. There were indictments (including four of Trump himself). Here we are. What we learned is that the only constitutional remedy is impeachment (which was also tried twice). What has disabled all the checks and balances is the knife-edge Congressional majority, the takeover of the judiciary, and the purging of the civil service. Changing the President stops the active craziness but doesn't address the underlying problem.

jLaForest 8mo ago

[flagged]

mickle00 8mo ago
fwiw it's been flagged and unflagged four times since I posted. I don't know the algorithm -- but it's been great to see whomever is unflagging understanding the importance and significance of this issue and relevance to hackers everywhere.
- jLaForest 8mo ago
  And here it remains flagged... I wonder why?
deleted 8mo ago
[deleted]
dang 8mo ago
HN has had numerous major frontpage threads that are critical of this administration. Not enough to satisfy those who want more, but that is a separate issue.
- jLaForest 8mo ago
  Yes I know because I've read through several right before they are predictably taken down. But yes I will take your word and stop believing my eyes and ears...
- smw 8mo ago
  Hey, I think you're a superhero for making this place such wonderful forum for deep and interesting conversation, but isn't there some point where you might consider putting your finger on the scale to help stop the slide into authoritarianism? This seems like the moment, maybe?
  - jLaForest 8mo ago
    It's a matter of taking his finger off the scale... Stop taking down threads with productive discussion just because they conflict with your worldview (and financial interests)

mistermaster1 8mo ago

[flagged]

usernomdeguerre 8mo ago
So the only point someone could conceivably write this article, in your mind, would be the moment after its writers and platforms would be subjected to state-sanctioned punishment for uttering it? I'll accept a little front-running then, if you don't mind.
- mistermaster1 8mo ago
  No they could write it in another state, anonymously, or on more underground/less mainstream established platforms than one of the oldest publications in the history of the republic. More like what’s happening with regards to Iran. Also, front-running also implies that there’s an order for fascism coming up. So the intent of establishing fascism is preceded by a bungled and visibly brutal and horribly implemented performative “operation” that this massacre by ICE is? That makes no sense. This is not an order for fascism that an article is sort of front-running protectively. The better analogy is a media entity predictably calling one extremely messed up thing another extremely messed up thing, and leaving a massive vulnerability for their side. Messed-up-thing-promoting folks will use articles like this a year from now after ICE ceases operations, effectively issuing a silent “apology” of sorts and curtailing the violence, to promote the next messed up thing they want to do (which may be less messed up than the ICE massacres but still would be quite messed up and avoidable). Every pessimistic approximation isnt always good. We lose credibility when we keep doing it.
donkey_brains 8mo ago
Ah yes, the “no true fascism” fallacy. Thanks for posting your half-thought out defense of the party that is murdering citizens in the street! I’m sure they appreciate your attempts to keep their jackboots shiny.
- mistermaster1 8mo ago
  Can you point out how I was defending a party? I’m simply saying that the US isn’t a fascist state yet. We can engage, debate and discuss. People are actively out in the streets of MSP and watching and confronting these agents and the incidents are being documented, spread widely and analyzed. Calling it fascism isn’t productive nor is it even front running. I am willing to bet against any of you that this insanity perpetrated by poorly trained or untrained agents running amok in the midwest will be old news by the end of the year and no not because it has been subsumed by some worse class of atrocities. It will have ended, ICE will have ceased these sort of unchecked “operarions” and largely due to public outrage and scrutiny. Actual outrage, scrutiny and genuine activism, not writing articles from an armchair that mischaracterize this as fascism or racism. That sort of thing only perpetuates and makes the rabid crazies who actually support these actions in light of the tragedies sink their jackboots in even harder and empowers them more despite them being in the minority.

touwer 8mo ago

The most scaring and amazing thing is not Trump himself, but all the people (suddenly) supporting him and being silent (including too many Democrats) in order to keep their position or for for opportunistic purposes. And destroying democracy along the way. Just like all the secret police agents in Iran or the henchmen of Hitler. CEO's of bigtech. Crypto-libertarians. Too many people are sucking up to wannabe dictators when the moment is there

acqq 8mo ago
Only somebody who isn't aware of whose "Congress speech received multiple standing ovations, touted 'most by any world leader'" would be surprised by that bipartisan support you mention. That happened in 2024, before Trump began his second term, but shows how the system works.
WickyNilliams 8mo ago
Same pattern played out in Germany. The centrists were more concerned with leftists than Hitler. Big business thought they could cosy up to him and keep him under control. Opportunistic collaboration for self preservation or personal benefit. Of course these all turned out to be grave miscalculations. I imagine that pattern will eventually play out this time too...
- wrs 8mo ago
  Is it possible their only miscalculation was not realizing how much of the world would fight back? Because if it hadn't, they would have continued enjoying the benefits.
  - WickyNilliams 8mo ago
    No I don't think so. Broadly they hitched their cart to a genocidal madman. Their hubris convinced them they could maintain a steer on its direction. The centrists ultimately lost when the Nazis banned other political parties. If they were not murdered first. And the Nazis took control of the German workforce, imposed harsh taxation on businesses, central planning, nationalization etc. I'm sure the uneasy alliance worked well for a a little while though!

messe 8mo ago

This should not have been flagged off the front page. I really worry for the people in the US, but I'm hopeful it's hegemony is ending.

Zigurd 8mo ago
Techno accelerationists don't like to be reminded of their complicity.
- tavavex 8mo ago
  I don't think accelerationists would mind - even if they believe that what's happening is wrong, going further in is the backbone of the whole ideology, so why would they be having second thoughts? I think the real group behind this is people who are capable of sensing that this is wrong at least on some deeper level, but who are so complacent that they just want not to think about it too much. Maybe it's because they're in too deep, maybe they make too much money off of it to care, maybe their heels are too dug in on social issues for them to ever try to reconsider. Possibly a combination of any of the three.
- nicbou 8mo ago
  Every thread about US politics has this comment, and the same response: this is not the right outlet, and some people feel like this content does not fit the topic of the website. If you are not American, it’s rather tiring to have every website and news outlet talk about it ad nauseum, and have it take over every subreddit and conversation. Americans get all uppity when you tell them that you don’t want that, as if their news are so important that they transcend categorisation. I care. It’s important. It’s just not the right website.
  - senordevnyc 8mo ago
    Then go ignore it on your country’s version of HN.
  - datsci_est_2015 8mo ago
    You will be affected by the (hypothetical) fall of American hegemony, whether it’s increased aggression in spheres of influence (Russia, China, India), market failures, or even a fracturing or collapse of digital services (Azure, AWS). I don’t understand the insistence that this isn’t on topic. Hard not to paint it as anything but willfully ignorant.

throwworhtthrow 8mo ago

It's not just Trump. Look at how even the weak Republican pushback is framed. They have no moral objection to his actions, only for the risk of blowback. See Ted Cruz's remarks on Jimmy Kimmel: "[W]hen it is used to silence every conservative in America, we will regret it." Or Brett Kavanaugh on Lisa Cook: that Trump shouldn't dismiss her because "what goes around comes around [...] if there's a Democrat president". This is the moderate Republican position: no concern for the harm caused to people on the political left, only concern that they on the right might not get away with it. The MAGA position is, as this article shows, much worse.

throwerxyz 8mo ago
Imagine voting for a party that wants to build more housing to solve the housing problem. Now imagine the people who don't want more housing (for some reason) end up burning all new houses being built in a state. Now imagine crying about how the people who want the houses to be built to solve the problem are still wanting more houses to be built. Turns out it's harder to solve a housing problem when the houses keep getting burnt down. Who'd have thunk?

deleted 8mo ago

[deleted]

ValveFan6969 8mo ago

Shooting people for speaking is also fascism but they won't say that.

xnx 8mo ago
[flagged]
zahlman 8mo ago
Who was shot for speaking?

eudamoniac 8mo ago

I read through every comment in this thread and no one seems to be addressing that the people voted for this. They'll probably vote for it again in the midterms and/or 2028. You're despairing over a democratic outcome. What do you actually propose that would fix this? Disenfranchise half the country? Outlaw things people are voting for to happen? Any criticism needs to address how we democratically counter this regime, how this makes sense when this is the voted upon regime, or perhaps make an argument for why democracy has failed. My perspective is that a scale has tipped, a critical mass of people decided they want this sort of thing, and they got it. It wasn't rigged, it wasn't fraudulent, it was a democratic election. Critique democracy itself, or the criticism is incoherent. Make an argument for why a government should be disallowed from doing things that the voters want it to do.

thrance 8mo ago
I actually think disenfranchisement is the only solution. Nazis didn't change their worldview after the war ended, they were shamed for them and learned to hide. Republicans are now defending straight-up murder in broad daylight by federal forces. I doubt there's anything that could change their minds at this point, they're too far gone.
xnx 8mo ago
> Disenfranchise half the country? Way more than half the country was disenfranchised in the last election. Best case scenario (and very unlikely scenario): blue sweep in the next elections and then massive electoral reform.
- jemmyw 8mo ago
  Electoral reform is really hard for parties just voted in by that election system. Suddenly they see the good in that which they had previously seen as bad.
- zahlman 8mo ago
  > Way more than half the country was disenfranchised in the last election. Over 152 million votes were cast, representing more than 64% turnout among those eligible to vote (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2024_United_States_presidential_election https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2024_United_States_presidentia...). The USA has about 342 million people, and over 18% of them are age 14 or younger (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_the_United_Sta...) and at least some of them are 15-17 (citation needed). So clearly, doing some arithmetic, there are fewer than 304 million adults. Not only was "half the country" not "disenfranchised", literally a majority of adults actually voted (and this is not even considering that not all adults were statutorily allowed to vote in the first place).

JohnTHaller 8mo ago

Link for once flagged: https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/2026/01/america-fascism-trump-maga-ice/685751/ https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/2026/01/america-fascism-tr...

judahmeek 8mo ago
You can also view flagged posts through https://news.ycombinator.com/active https://news.ycombinator.com/active

stellalo 8mo ago

This should not be flagged. Flagging this: that’s fascism.

Schmerika 8mo ago
HN has always had topics that aren't permitted to be discussed; no matter how relevant or how popular, or how polite the discussions are. However, this past year has been extreme. Seeing how everything related to Musk and DOGE was removed, for example, was extraordinary. Anyone who thinks this forum lives up to its rhetoric is simply flat wrong. This place is now a testament to the effectiveness of clever censorship.
- tim333 8mo ago
  It's more tech not politics.
  - Schmerika 8mo ago
    Politics is not and was never barred from HN, if that was your point. And, rising fascism would/does directly and massively affect every tech worker in the US. But we're talking about HN censoring topics, in general - not just politics. I'll give you an example with a tech story I commented on just 3 hours ago [0]. Sourced from the BBC, with a correct headline, not a dupe, generating discussion, upvoted, relevant, important, and in every possible way squarely within HN's remit: But it mentioned Musk in a bad light. Not only was it flagged, but it was some new kind of uber-flagged. It no longer shows up in new. It doesn't show up in the OP's submissions list. It doesn't show up in my favorites list. You can't comment on it. The link and even the title were completely removed. That's sheer insanity. Absolutely extraordinary and wholly, completely unjustifiable. And if you or I were to make a post about this wild level of censorship of a legitimate and important tech story, it would be rapidly removed also. Most likely, you'd be banned if you kept trying (for something completely different, no doubt). So can we please not pretend that stories about Musk and fascism are being removed for being 'political'. The YC people have picked their dog in this fight, and are very much trying to tip the scales in their favour by censoring the users of this platform. 0 - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46764789 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46764789

dev_256 8mo ago

[flagged]

shalmanese 8mo ago

“For another, the term has been overused to the point of meaninglessness, especially by left-leaning types who call you a fascist if you oppose abortion or affirmative action.” The left was right too early. Whereas I, the enlightened centrist was right and just the right time.

blks 8mo ago

Everyone having doubts, just wait until it’s time for the new presidential election, and see if power will be given up willingly. Hopefully old man won’t be around that long

scruple 8mo ago
Is this common belief grounded in reality? We're well past the notion that the "old man" (and his VP, as well as most, if not all of his cabinet) believes in the law and he has stacked the deck in his favor.
- neogodless 8mo ago
  To beat a dead horse, propaganda works. And it's so much more pervasive than an occasional misleading message. Millions in the U.S. get "information" from a firehose of propaganda. That defines the reality they see. Others perhaps just feel hopeless but... want to believe that our constitutional democracy somehow manages to hold on and rebound.
  - scruple 8mo ago
    It is exhausting and frustrating. What level of evidence is required here? And why? It's not unlike the article. Do we need to wait around for firing squads or something? What does it take for people to wake up?
    - neogodless 8mo ago
      A man doing no more than holding a communication device in the presence of federally assigned bounty hunters was shot at, and executed, by several of them. Not a big delta between that and firing squad.

ZeroGravitas 8mo ago

It's useful to rewind and see the tests people put in place before the thing happened. Like this VOX article surveying experts on fascism in 2015 and then revisiting in 2020: https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/21521958/what-is-fascism-signs-donald-trump https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/21521958/what-is-fas... > But there is still no state management of the economy here (as there was to a degree in Nazi Germany and fascist Italy). Trump is content to aid business by reducing government protections of the environment and of workers … and his economic policy is mainly just to let businessmen do what they want. Well, we can check that one off the list with 2024 hindsight. >He’s never actually done a Putin and tried to make himself a permanent president, let alone suggest any coherent plan for overthrowing the constitutional system. And I don’t even think that’s in his mind And another one bites the dust. Note that all the scholars who get very technical on what they want to call Fascist all compare him to Marcos, Erdogan, Milosovic. That's still not a good review.

grajmanu 8mo ago

I am glad that atleast some journalists writes about this in the US+West. In India, there is little to no resistance, contemporary culture is flooded, institutions are tamed, media houses are strong armed or bought entirely and there is no one on the streets fighting the tyranny.

EchoReflection 8mo ago

The loose application of "fascism" to disliked ideas reflects a culture of perpetual outrage and victimhood, diluting the term's historical weight.

EchoReflection 8mo ago
https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/the-atlantic/ https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/the-atlantic/ The Atlantic – Bias and Credibility LEFT-CENTER BIAS These media sources have a slight to moderate liberal bias. They often publish factual information that utilizes loaded words (wording that attempts to influence an audience by appeals to emotion or stereotypes) to favor liberal causes. These sources are generally trustworthy for information but may require further investigation https://profrjstarr.com/the-psychology-of-us/the-need-to-be-offended-a-psychological-look-at-outrage-culture https://profrjstarr.com/the-psychology-of-us/the-need-to-be-... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outrage_porn https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outrage_porn https://www.npr.org/2019/10/09/768489375/how-outrage-is-hijacking-our-culture-and-our-minds https://www.npr.org/2019/10/09/768489375/how-outrage-is-hija... https://theconversation.com/outrage-culture-is-a-big-toxic-problem-why-do-we-take-part-and-how-can-we-stop-223645 https://theconversation.com/outrage-culture-is-a-big-toxic-p...

mistermaster1 8mo ago

[dead]

scotty79 8mo ago

I think flagging thresholds might need to raised. It's way too easy to supress anything controversial nowadays.